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From: chadely2
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  • We spend the most on health care as a percentage of our GDP (17%) yet we have results that are worse than the "Socialized Pits of Communist Fascist Hell(lol)" who spend around 8% of their GDP.

    Judging by those figures, it is a wonder why there is a debate as to whether or not we need reform.

  • @Gila: AND, one of the MOST IMPORTANT points: you want to give complete & total power to the fed gov, those in the pocket of Big Pharma, pill pushers. The people who've been lying about cannabis & continue to PUT CANNABIS USERS in jail. Who silence anyone who has alternative medical advice. Who fine & jail those who tell us the truth about vitamins & supplements & alternative therapies. YOU WANT TO GIVE THEM TOTAL & COMPLETE POWER OVER OUR HEALTH CARE? politics aside its just plain STUPID.

  • @Gila: I argue for free market & Constitutional, limited government; state gov determining medical issues for people w/in the states & allowing interstate insurance competition, which will bring down prices for those who want to buy health insurance. You want the gov to take over health care industry. You calling me facist? That's absurd. You need to do some reading about what's facist & what's free market. Typical when losing, start calling names, slinging mud. Totally counterproductive.

  • You say you don't poison yourself with toxins, & you're not a sheep, but you've let someone (something) poison your mind & blindly along you follow the flock ... baaa baaa gov save us!

    You're for smaller gov, yet you want them to take over one of the last industries we have, rather than trying other less-intrusive solutions first?

    Whoa. They took over education & look at what it produced: people who make inconsistent, idiotic & hypocritic statements like I've seen here.

    Let freedom ring.

  • @ Gila: Now wait a minute there, cowboy. Don't EVEN start springing that "you hate him cause he's a democrat BS" on me. They're all bought & paid for except Ron Paul, and I thought Kucinich. I have no use for anyone in the clubs. I don't now nor have I ever belonged to anything. My religion is non-religion, Rastafari. It's not bias, it's facts here ... THIS BILL DESTROYS THE HEALTH CARE INDUSTRY. What is constitutional about that? Or maybe you can't defend your position, so you just jump to

  • @ Gila (pt 2):

    conclusions about my blanket hatred of democrats, tell me to shove the "friendship" invitation & stomp off. I don't know if Kucinich is like other democrats or republicans or any other label. But I know the end effect of this bill. It's against the constitution. It further destroys the economy & free market. It's essentially a "taking" by the government of how many livelihoods? Doctors, nurses, etc., who invested in education, businesses, licenses, etc., to support their family

  • @ Gila (pt 3):

    and create a viable business enterprise, in the United States of America where, supposedly, we are free to do this. Save-beg-borrow money to get an education, invest years of life studying, save-beg-borrow to start a business, work at the business to feed the kids & put them through school. Now Obama declares this emergency to completely remake the health system, now, fast! Quick! So all those lackeys are scrambling around to do his bidding. Why do they have to do it like that?

  • @ Gila (pt 4)

    why do they have to completely destroy what we have - turn so many lives upside down, get us into something we may not be able to get out of? WITHOUT EVEN LOOKING AT OTHER LESS DRASTIC MEASURES & ALTERNATIVES FIRST? Doesn't that strike you as odd? At a minimum, it doesn't make any sense. FREE MARKET SOLUTIONS exist to cut costs & get more people covered with insurance & improve care. Why don't we try it? Because ultimately, this isn't about costs or insurance. It's about control.

  • @ Gila (pt 5)

    Because I'm an independent person - and have been all my life, I have no idea why people are so gung-ho to identify with a group, at any cost. "I'm a Democrat." "I'm a Republican" "I'm a Chiefs fan" on & on. What happened to being proud of being independent, thinking & acting for yourself; proud of creating a free society. You people want to be enslaved? You want the gov to tell, of all people, YOUR DOCTOR - what to do? Goodbye freedom. Gila, you don't want friendship, ok.

  • @Gila: demoncrats are trying to demonize "for profit". I'm so disappointed in Kucinich on this. He's oversimplified. It's not "for profit" but the amount of profit. We should want businesses to make a profit. If they don't, they won't stay in business. Besides, the profit is what gives others incentive to get into the biz, which brings competition, which drives down prices, increases quality. We could easily change the laws to allow interstate competition of insurance firms. Why don't they?

  • @Gila: Yes, this plan does have ID card. I just read the bill. And it completely dismantles private medical industry. We don't want that. We're Americans, not Soviets or Chinese. Unless you want that - but why would you? We can come up with a free market solution, and many good ideas are out there, but the congress won't even consider anything other than gov programs. More gov. Bigger gov. NO! Enough gov already. They created the problem. They're not going to fix it. Please work to stop this.

  • Yes we do want it.

    I don't care if the government gives me an id card for my medical the corporation that i am a slave to does.

  • lato: But this is still not any more viable than Obama's plan. There is not enough resources to pay for this or any other socialization of medicine. When the Baby Boomers retire and stop paying into the payroll income tax system, we will not be able to afford anything we already have for social programs.

    Money has to come from people who work, and too many will no longer be paying in like they used to.

  • @ Weed: plus, all the taxes that doctors & nurses & clerical staff & insurance companies pay, will be drastically reduced. So, we'll have less revenue to pay for this. WTF is wrong with people to want the fed gov involved in medicine & health any more than they are? Why aren't we looking to decrease gov and increase free market solutions? Wise up people, this is communism & facism. Gov takeover of health care industry. Medicare & Medicaid is already broke. VA service is crappy.

  • arle: I agree. The one thing we must keep in mind is "What If"...

    What if we go to full on socialism and it fails because of lack on funds...as we already KNOW will happen?

    Then What?

    Who provides us care while we scramble to go back to privatized medicine, when we no loonger have that structure in place?

    "Sorry sir, you have to wait 6 months to have your heart attack while we rebuild the medical system..."

    Really?

  • We won't be able to rebuild. Once our freedom is gone, it'll be gone. No capital will be available to rebuild. Buy medical equipment again? Nope. Suppliers will have been selling to the gov, so prices will be skyhigh. Remember toilet seats for $500? Next, MRI machines for $5 billion. MUST WATCH THIS MOVIE: "The New American Century" on google. Then must copy & give it to everyone. Time is running out. Act fast. Keep fighting. The US is the absolute last outpost of freedom IN THE WORLD. No joke.

  • Well, again the subject has been changed and the points of the failures of socialism have been derailed.

    No matter how good you people think the socialization of medicine would be, if it happens it is destined to fail. When baby boomers retire and stop paying into the payroll tax system, there will be no money available for social programs or much else.

    If you want to know what socialized medicine would be like, study Keiki care in Hawaii. It failed after just 7 months.

  • @Weed: Not only will this fail, and we'll be out of money, but this bill also destroys the health care industry. No more free market health care. I couldn't tell from reading the bill if it's required, but it will destroy the health care industry, doctors offices, and insurance. I go to the VA and I promise that people don't want the government in charge of health care. Why do people want something this drastic? Why don't we try a free market solution first? Many options are available.

  • arle: I wish I could point people to you every time they say Government care will be "better"...or more "cost effective". We who use the VA...(or HAVE used the VA in the past but refuse to now) know how horrible it is.

    You just can't explain that to civilians.

  • why is Huge government upsetting but no body seems to mind huge military budget or mega huge bonuses and fraud. Spend 2 triillion on stimulus plans but hate the idea of national health plan.

    Its almost religious this thing. Too many movies not enough travel. and prozac!

  • od4m: We do mind a huge military budget and we do mind huge bonuses and fraud. I do not know where people get the idea that, just because you dislike big, failed, inept, and wasteful Government, that you somehow turn a blind eye to everything else.

    We DO dislike all that as well.Stimulus plans where big wasteful Government throws tons of money we do not have, at problems they can not resolve, is not good.

  • To dems and Obama: Fix Medicare and Medicaid (what you are responsible for today) and then maybe we can trust you with the entire system. It is arrogance beyond belief that you believe you can change something so important, so complex, and so huge all at once. Take this in steps, steps that we can understand.

    "A liberal is someone who feels a great debt to his fellow man, which debt he proposes to pay off with your money."

  • "The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected."- G.K. Chesterton

  • When they realize they cannot get the massive plan into place now, they will scale it back and wait until they think you are not watching. They are very willing to make the incremental moves until all the sheep are fooled. Then they have full control... Why does a mandatory "board" member have to be Representatives of labor unions like SEIU (Dem thugs)? To help delay critical lifesaving medical treatments causing premature deaths to non union citizens?

  • Organized labour and "dem thugs" (your charming term for anyone progressive at all, I take it?) are the reasons you and your young children aren't working 14 hour days, 6 days a week for 35 cents a a day in coal mines anymore for some robber baron who is busy building his 15th mansion.

  • Haha. You are seriously dumb as shit.

    I love that talking point because that TOTALLY isn't what the insurance companies ALREADY FUCKING DO.

    Seriously, you realize insurance companies tell people what treatment they'll cover and what treatment they won't as well as what conditions they'll cover and what they won't and that people base their treatment plans on this, right?

    You are one dumb motherfucker. Your apocalyptic, doomsday scenario is literally no worse than what already happens.

  • Except that, y'know, everyone would be offered coverage instead of what amounts to only non-sick people. The only way to get insurance to cover your illness is to buy the insurance BEFORE you get diagnosed which kinda sucks for people who are born with illnesses, huh?

    Do you idiots even know how insurance works? If you're already sick, it makes no sense for a company to waste their money on you and that's exactly what happens.

    For-profit health insurance is kinda a conflict of interests!

  • uvli: What is your rocket science alternative? Socialism?

  • ulvi: Back in the early 1900's, unions did a lot for the country, but so did the model T Ford. Like the model T, the antiquated idea of unions have become antiques of a by gone era. They have outlived their usefulness and just take up space.

    The reason the auto industry now needs to be bailed out is because Unions have made the cost of making good cars unreasonable for the consumer to buy.

  • (cont) When TWA was bought by American Airlines, the flight attendants who worked for 30 years were dismissed with no pension, thanks to their union. I met one in St Louis as it was happening. She was in her 60's, lived alone, had no savings, and she was out of a job. She gave over 30 years on the promise of a retirement, which is now gone along with her job. You should ask her how well unions have worked for her.

  • You are an absolute fool if you think that corporations would play nice if we dissolved all the unions and the right to collective bargaining and fully deregulated industry.

    We tried that once. It was called the Gilded Age and people worked 16 hour shifts, 6 days a week for 30 cents a day. You are out of your mind if you think businesses wouldn't go back to something that if they could get away with it.

    You may fear what government MIGHT do, but I fear what corporations HAVE done a lot more.

  • Seriously. I can name a dozen large corporations off the top of my head that literally offer their workers the bare minimum required by law.

    Do you SERIOUSLY think that if the law required them to offer less, they'd change their ways and start offering awesome benefits and stuff out of the goodness of their hearts?

    Fuck no. They'd cream their jeans over their new profit margin and gut their wages and benefits to the new lowest legal level.

  • There isn't even any debating this. That is what they have done in the past and nothing has changed in the 100 years since they were actively doing this except for that we now regulate them.

    Any argument you could possibly offer to this is going to be some kind of stupid, "fuck you, got mine" Randian tripe about "well, if workers want a job that pays more than 35 cents a day maybe they should tug a little harder on their boot straps".

    I trust the economic theories of a chick with a rape fetish

  • ulvi: I have no idea what you are talking about. You jump to a lot of conclusions and read things into peoples words a lot of things that are not there.

    Sounds to me like you hate anyone who has more than you.

  • ulvi: Who says we have to abolish all labor laws if we get rid of useless unions?

    What makes you think that the abolition of antiquated unions would automatically destroy labor law as we know it?

    You have this weird way of automatically going from point "A" to point "F". 1+1 does not equal 47.

  • ulvi: When did I ever say corporations would "Play Nice"? I challenge you to show me where I said THAT.

    We can have regulation and basic oversight by Government without a need to put them in charge of the whole mess.

  • Another thing their doing is called incremental change. When they realize they cannot get the massive plan into place now, they scale it back and wait until they think you are not watching. They are very willing to make the incremental moves until all the sheep are fooled. Then they have full control...

  • (in this section referred to as the Board) consisting of 15 members appointed by the President, by and with the advice and consent of the Senate.

    They just can't get over the "death panel" for killing off the elderly faster. notice that the senate gives the ultimate approval. they also have manditory board member to be Representatives of labor unions like SEIU (Dem thugs).

  • Really, that is scary... guess you cannot find one single thing anywhere in the dozens of proposed bills on health care verifying this though, could you?

  • I have the bill on PDF (aval. on internet from the house of rep.) Page 425 does in fact require anAdvance Care Planning Consultation every 5 yrs. It includes living wills and durable

    powers of attorney, and their uses. (E) An explanation by the practitioner of the continuum of end-of-life services and supports available, including palliative care and hospice, and benefits for such services and supports that are available under this title.

    Rationing creeping death for the elderly.

  • The entire bill is 26 pages long so there is nothing on page 425.

    I am sending you a pm to the bill, I have read it, I know it's contents.

  • \I have the 1018 pg bill by, HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

    Mr. DINGELL (for himself, Mr. RANGEL, Mr. WAXMAN, Mr. GEORGE MILLER

    of California, Mr. STARK, Mr. PALLONE, and Mr. ANDREWS) introduced

    the following bill; which was referred to the Committee on----

  • Sorry, i have the Conyers bill now. hr676 will read.

  • The Conyers/Kucinich version is the one I do support and have wrote my congressman urging him to support.

    I have also compiled an easy to read email with links sending it to all my email contacts urging them to do the same. I voiced protest to my congressman against considering any bill that is excessive in length, references other bills, has any additional costs, etc..

  • Holy shit, it's hitler... :42 to :48 seconds in.

  • Have any of you people bothered to watch "Sicko"? The idea that I live in the only industrialized first world nation without healthcare disgusts me. What happened to the american dream? LIfe, liberty and the persuit of happiness, right? How can I do any of those things without good health care?

  • we have healthcare, it just costs a whole fucking lot

  • Ever watch John Stossil's expose on the lies associated with the movie "Sicko"?

    Many people have lived long lives of liberty and happiness and never once seen a Doctor.

  • We pay taxes to wage wars abroad yet can't pay taxes to provide health for all at home? Hmmm...

  • Sounds temping, right? hmmmm

    Thomas Jefferson: A government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have.

  • A business big enough to pretend to care and give you "insurance" is big enough to take your money and let you die. So what the heck is your point? Every social structure needs checks and balances. If people wise up and wake up, we can de-thrown scummy government reps. However, we can't get rid of scummy big business CEO's that easily. With a choice between big government (that can be knocked down) and big business, I'll go for big government any day.

  • etom: Yes, we have had this discussion before. You want all out socialism at whatever cost, as long as you do not have to pay the bills.

  • Healthcare isn't Everything ANYONE wants... it is considered basic right in all other developed nations and many not so developed countries, such as Cuba.

  • ekic: Why is free health care somehow a "right" and free food is not? Where is this "right" enumerated? You can not live without food, but can live without ever seeing a Doctor. How many Doctors do you think Moses saw in his lifetime? How many days do you think he could go without food and live?

  • The United States Constitution is not a complete list of all government/citizens rights and duties. I know you simpletons that cannot interpret anything on your own have difficulty with this concept but that's the way it is. If necessary hire yourself a lawyer so you can better understand it.

    There were doctors in biblical times, your question was pointless regarding Moses.

  • ekic: Doctors in Biblical times? Really?

    Please elaborate about the wonderous marvels of medicine when the Bible was written.

    Apparently the medical miracles afforded people back in Biblical times eludes this "simpleton", so please educate me.

    Just curious, did Moses have "Wood Cross / Wood Shield" insurance, or did he trust the good hands people of "All Snake"?

  • I am far from a biblical scholar or a scholar of medical practices during biblical times but do know that they had functioning doctors, obviously primitive by today's standards.

    I did not originally post under this video to educate you of such off-topic matters.

  • ekic: Yeah...nice back pedal.

    They did not have Doctors. They had medicine men, who used prayer, herbs and potions to try to cure things. Most of the ancient Hebrew medical information came from travelling study in other civilizations, more than 400 years after Moses. You might want to google it for starters.

  • Actually the bible refers to them as "Physicians" not medicine men or doctors. If you own one and want specific references I will provide them to you.

  • ekic: Biblical translations from the ancient languages to "English" leave a lot to be desired. The King James VERSION of the Bible was the best attempt of 17th century Englanders to translate and revise the Bible to fit their agenda and language.

  • Do you have a more reliable and accurate record of events from that era or is this merely a feeble attempt to dismiss your error?

  • Open Google, do a search on Ancient Hebrew Doctors, and go to the second link (healthguide [dot] org). Youtube does not allow me to post the link. It tells of 4th century learning in Alexandria as the first real Hebrew study of anatomy and phisiology.

  • ekic: You did not answer my question: Why is free health care a right but free food isn't?

  • Food stamps is the equivalent of free food for the poor. Every American who is poor is entitle to apply for them.

  • ekic: My Brother was out of work and very poor and they said he made too much money the year prior to be eligible for food stamps...so they are NOT an equivelent of free food, and they are NOT available to anyone who is poor.

  • I've never applied for food stamps so am not familiar with the process. The government and not you must determine that you are poor to be eligible. Also it varies from state to state but typically if you have a net value of $200 or less and have been without income for a month or longer you are eligible. If you have assetts or money exceeding the $2000 limit you are expected to sell something and purchase your own food.

  • ekic: That is not what you said. You said it is free food for anyone who is poor. So now you are saying you were wrong?

    So again, I will ask, why is free food not a right, but free health care is?

  • Certainly, copy and paste the exact text where I made such a claim and I will prove you wrong you incompetent doper.

  • ekic: You said:"Food stamps is the equivalent of free food for the poor. Every American who is poor is entitled to apply for them."

  • Both are absolute rights. We are assured the rights of Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. I'm pretty sure by "life" they didn't mean a horribly, sickly life but rather a full and robust life.

    Furthermore, it is rather hard to pursue happiness and to enjoy liberty if one is gravely ill.

    Food, shelter, healthcare, etc. are absolutely inalienable, natural rights because without them, it becomes increasingly hard to both exercise and defend the rights granted to us by the Constitution.

  • ulvi: WRONG. Your ignorance is sad.

    We DO NOT assure life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. That is the Declaration of Independence...which is NOT law. It is ONLY a note to the King of England saying, "SEE YA SUCKER".

    Nothing you mentioned is enumerated as a right in the U.S. Constitution.

    One of my family members has severe MS...and they still enjoy life, liberty and they pursue happiness.

  • Haha, I think you're really misreading me here.

    At no point did I say the Declaration of Independence was law. My point is that if you're going to quote founding fathers to prove the "intent" of the constitution or how it should be interpreted, it's just as pertenant to quote our other founding documents.

    The Declaration of Independence is literally as relevant to the workings of our government as any supposedly "anti-big government" Jeffersonian quote in as much as neither are relevant.

  • ulvi: I am not misreading anything. You can't quote the Declaration as law. It is not law. It is not the Constitution and the "Intent" was to create a free society, and limited Government, not socialism and big Government.

  • Furthermore, I have a family member that is absolutely miserable because they have a genetic condition that requires a lot of very expensive medication in order to keep them healthy and vital. Obviously, they can't get insurance as it's a pre-existing condition, so they're forced to rely on Medicare/Medicaid which then requires them to basically not work or be productive at all even though at this stage in their life, they could still contribute to society.

  • ulvi: Excatly the problem with Government...they force you to be dependent and not to contribute.

    This is exactly why we need less, not more Government.

  • I agree with Weeda...we should have to pay for police, libraries, fire dept, and healthcare, and post, out of our own pockets!!! Poor, uneducated folks are so annoying...always wanting things! Less government I say!!! Darwinian Economics!!! Good job Weeda I support your war of terror!!!

  • padi: Police, fire, and libraries are all locally funded (And we DO pay for them already with LOCAL taxes), because we can not all have our own private police departments enforcing our own laws. We can not all afford to have a fire department on standby just in case we need them.

    Your sarcasm really does not make you sound any more intellectual or socialism any more desirable.

  • That's the point. Some things need to be administered by the gov't. Here in California we were duped into voting for privatized deregulated utilities a few years back and we all saw the devastation unfold afterwards. Truth is, I think it is great that single payer attempts to insure all, but I am not convinced that it will reduce costs. The problem of cost is systemic and not related to who pays for it. It is a symptom of a greedy healthcare system in need of a paradigm shift.

  • padi: Some things need to be regulated. MOST do not.

    People like you crack me up. The EVIL greedy system...bastards who stand in the doorway of hospitals with pitchforks in red devil suits and stab peoiple as they walk in.

    There are problems with our health care system, but most are fixable without lying about the problems, without flipping out, without panicking and without socialism.

  • (cont) The lie is that 47 million people are poor and without health care. The truth is that there are about 6 million people (2% of the total population) who are really poor and without a health PLAN. Until you can be realistic about the problem, you can not begin to create a reasonable solution.

  • I've never stood in front of anywhere with a pitchfork, WEED. And the greed in healthcare is why I quit medicine and became an engineer. Sure its a huge paycut, but I sleep better. I'm not talking about socialism. That's just stupid. I'm talking about a coherent, collaborative approach to medicine, that is focused on customer satisfaction, not on hospital profit. Ordering a dozen tests you don't need just because I can isn't helping anyone but the insurance company and MY bank account.

  • padi: So you have identified a root problem in too many tests. I have a viable solution: A loser pays litigations system, coupled with caps on jury awards, and proficiency testing Doctors. This 3 step effort would reduce medical malpractice insurance costs, lowering the need to perform unnecessary tests.

    Limits on jury awards would be implemented in categories. Life threatening / ending, permanent disability, temporary disability, and inconvenience. Each category limited to an amount.

  • (cont) Loser pays would make frivilous lawsuits go away. If you lose your case, you have to pay the legal bills of both sides. You had better have a very strong case that you have a good chance of winning before you decide to litigate.

    Proficiency testing Doctors does a few things. Like pilots, every two years, they have to show someone they know what they are doing. This protects Doctors who can prove they have shown recent competence. Who stops a Doctor with altzheimers from operating now?

  • (cont) If the Doctors can prove they know what they are doing, and someone can litigate, but better have a good case, and the case can only award them so much, then the unnecessary "cover your ass" testing does not have to be performed by Doctors and Hospitals to protect them from malpractice.

    Litigation drives fear, which drives up costs and makes people perform tests that are not needed. Tests done to be sure of the diagnosis that they pretty much already know.

    Root problem solved.

  • (cont) First ask "WHY?"

    Problem: My sink leaks.

    "WHY?" Corroded faucet. What is the problem? Old fixture, corrosion of metal, and lack of preventitive maintenance. Fix: Get a new faucet.

    "WHY" do Doctors perform these tests? Fear of litigation. So what is the problem? Huge settlements aimed at perceived deep pockets. So how do you fix that? Proficiency testing, loser pays and limits on awards.

    Find root causes of basic problems and seek solutions.

  • WOW. You would have made an awful doctor or engineer! Doctor's dont overuse medicine because of fear or being sued! LOL They do it because they don't know any better. No matter who pays we will be screwed because the flaw is in how we practice. E.g. When I don't have any clue what is wrong with you I don't consult with another doctor, I order a million costly tests that lead nowhere. And I do that by referring you to a clinic that gives me a kickback. Its all legal, baby!!!

  • (Con't) And there is no fear of being sued because I've done all I can to "help". This is just one example really, but what I am trying to say is that as an engineer I know there is a better way. When I come across a problem I don't understand now, I confer with I refer to as "the ancients". And low and behold, projects are on time and under budget! There was a sense of working together as a team to find the very best solution from the very beginning of the engineering college curriculum.

  • That was never there as a doctor. There was always a sense of competition and trying to make more $ than the next guy. No matter who pays I believe we shouldn't have insurance companies because I dont believe medicine should be practiced for profit. And a major restructuring of medicine down to the way it is taught is necessary in order to get to a system that rewards hospitals and doctors for IMPROVING health, rather than the sue-happy system that exists today and has improved nothing.

  • (con't) Until those things are addressed I think any solution will amount to putting a bandaid on an amputated limb...sure it looks pretty but it hasn't stopped the bleeding. So argue all you want...mark my words we will fumble and F this up in Washington and we will be right back here again in a few years because we're drowning and they are just describing the water. I'll be ok, though...trust me. I got great health care and an education that helps me get the best of it. I hope you do too.

  • padi: So basically, you were a greedy person who was only after money, and because you were, everyone else is too?

    It is hard to believe someone who admits they were dishonest and now all the sudden, somehow found "honesty".

    Sorry man...people who have integrity always have it and those who don't do not just "grow" it.

  • Great comeback Weed! No I wouldn't describe myself as greedy. I guess I never would have made much money as a doctor because I never took a kickback in my life. I was merely describing the prevailing methodology in healthcare today as an example...without specifically implicating anyone I know. Stop pretending you know anything about me or my career choices. You strike me as a young, ignorant, punk kid who likes to think he's won an argument simply because he yells the loudest. Grow up, kid.

  • (Con't)

    I consider it beneath me to indulge your stupidity further, Weed. Have a nice life, a-hole.

  • padi: Oh yeah...did I forget to say, "whaa whaa whaa..."

  • Weeda, you are the most immature idiot. Get a life, loser!

  • irid: Calling people names is immature. I never once stooped to that level of childishness...like others here have. You know, like calling people losers and idiots? Oh wait, that was something you did.

    What are you...12?

  • Both 1 and 2. I'm bringing it down to your school yard level! Anyone reading this stuff here can easily see that.

  • irid: Yes, the old, "I know you are, but what am I" defense...very mature.

    Both 1 and 2? Sorry, I should have known better and spelled out the word "twelve"... as in twelve years old. The year that comes after eleven and before thirteen.

    I guess I gave you too much credit for the capacity to figure that one out.

  • padi: I am probably older, and no doubt wiser than you are.

    I see you like to use name calling as your weapon of choice, because you have nothing better to use....like reason, fact, or intellect. You just take your little ball and go home and whine to mommy.

  • Perhaps you'd rather not venture down the slippery slope of canonizing everything Thomas Jefferson and the other founding fathers said/did?

    Because, I mean, we can go there if you want. Back to the "good old days" of only allowing male property owners to vote and allowing people to own slaves and such. Jefferson was certainly in favor of both of those ideas.

    Futhermore, if your point is "any government = evil" then we'd better privatize the army and fire departments and everything else.

  • WeedaPeople, how much money do you make in a year?

    I will bet dollars to donuts that you make under 50k a year, and probably somewhere in the 18k to 30k range.

    Of course, this is the internet and you'll lie and say you make 100K+ and "waahhhh the liberals want to take mah moneies"

    So, instead, as a recipient of both Social Security payments and Medicare, I'll simply thank you for helping pay for my 15k/month in medicine bills so I am able to contribute to society due to my improved health.

  • Lord knows I'm not a business mogul with 15k/month to spend on ANYTHING, let alone a necessity like medicine, and Medicare is the only way I can afford it. There are simply not enough bootstraps in the world for me to be able to afford the medicine my illness requires.

    So, on behalf of everyone on Social Security, thanks for the help even though you think we don't deserve or need it and thanks for paying taxes even if you disagree with them and thank you for not forcing me to die in a gutter.

  • ulvi:"I will bet ...that you make under 50k a year"

    You would bet wrong, but you really would not believe me anyway, so what is the point of asking, then setting up an impossible scenario? Do you want to know or care, or are you just personally attacking me, when you know nothing about me or my finances?

    FYI: I grew up poor and now I am not poor. I worked to get a degree and better myself. I deserve to keep what I have. I earned it.

  • Most of us have worked to get a degree and deserve to keep what we earn, after paying our share.

    That university you got that degree from wasn't built for free, nor is the hospital you were born it, the parks you played in, etc.. - but since none of those are mentioned in the Constitution specifically you wouldn't understand.

  • ekic: I understand plenty. You think some peoples "Share" should be dependent on what they have, and the more you have the greater your "share". If it were done by equal percentage of earnings, equally spread out, then that would be acceptable, but the "robin hood" ideal seems more noble to people like you, because all wealthy people have to be evil.

  • I believe if you control three times the wealth of someone less advantaged then you are responsible for three times the taxes. (based on the cost of running our country)

    You have lost me with "equal percentages," equal percentages would be fine with me but not the wealthy repbulicans who have brainwashed you into trying to make their argument for them.

    Flat tax(equal percentages) has been kicked around and studied for years. It is estimated it would require 14-18 percent.

  • ekic: I am fine with a flat rate tax with no deductions whatsoever, so every person pays the same amount per dollar made. If you make 3 times what someone else does, you pay 3 times the taxes. The problem with that is Congress will not be able to socially engineer anything if that happens. It is not one evil party versus one good. Both parties are just as bad as one another. To think otherwise is naive and ignorant.

  • I agree with you completely on this point

  • Additionally I believe if we ever moved to a flat tax the "excess" congress has become accustom to will be factored in from the beginning.

    Initially they estimated a 8 percent flat federal income tax would cover everything. Now estimates range upwards of 20%.... so their game is obvious. If we hold their feet to the fire they will attempt to throw us into the same fire.

  • ulvi: How much I make is irrelevant and none of your business. If I answer you honestly, you will not believe it anyway as evidenced by your no-win claim that I either make (X) or I am a liar, as if you knew anything about me.

    Suffice it to say I make plenty enough and have health care.

  • Why do liberal whack jobs always hate the rich...then idolize the other rich people who tell you that they hate the rich?

    Hillary Clinton - Rich. John Kerry - Rich. Michael Moore - Rich. Ted Kennedy - Rich. Every Liberal moviestar...RICH!

    Why don't you hate them?

  • i couldn't agree more...work is an honor, a pleasure. we were created for work

    its no small feat to work with a disability like CP, but how about these. a C-5 injured person who went to law school, and currently works in the states attorneys office with a law secretary with a C-4 spinal cord injury?

    its not about jealosy or 'hating the rich', thats a conservative canard. its an issue of fairness...in HR676 everyone pays, and everyone benefits

  • nnny:"its an issue of fairness"

    FAIRNESS? Is it "Fair" that some people work and others just sit around with their hands out?

    So are you going to answer my question? Do you work? If so, what do you do?

  • nnny:"its not about jealosy or hating the rich"

    Then what IS it about? You use the term; "greedheads"...indicating you hate people who have something you don't. Or is there possibly some other way to interpret that slander on people with wealth?

    If so, please explain why you use that term in the way you do. It only leads me to believe that you hate people who have worked hard to get somewhere.

  • Weeda

    David Walker

    The son of a slave father and a free black mother, he was born in Wilmington, North Carolina, in 1796 or 1797.

    David Walker's objective was revolutionary. He would arouse slaves of the South into rebelling against their master. His tool would be his own pamphlet, David Walker's Appeal. . . , a document that has been described as "for a brief and terrifying moment. . ., the most notorious document in America."

    Were you actually thinking of Johnny Walker Red or Black?

  • teju:"he was born in Wilmington, North Carolina, in 1796 or 1797"

    Really? Is that how he became the Comptroller General of the United States under GW Bush?

    Do you think MAYBE there is more than one David Walker, and maybe you might have not read the "YouTube" or "Comptroller General" parts of the suggestion for the research?

    I seriously doubt that the Walker you mentioned was on 60 minutes.

  • End for profit health insurance companies. End Big Pharma profits off of publicly funded research. Yes on HR 676!

  • avid:"End Big Pharma profits off of publicly funded research"

    Good plan...then what? Who will try to find a cure for illnesses and cancers when there is no motive for them to do so?

    The reason we get new drugs and cures for diseases is not because peoople do so from the kindness of their heart.

  • And it's not because "Big Pharma" spends a lot of money on research. That cost currently is primarily paid by the taxpayers through the NIH and the University system. Then Big Pharma slaps a few million dollars at the end and gets the patent rights. The People get screwed. Big Pharma's primary expense is not on R&D but it is on Marketing. Those great ads that cause people to purchase things they don't really need. Big Pharma is NOT the primary funder of reseearch. The taxpayers are.

  • avid:"And it's not because "Big Pharma" spends a lot of money on research"

    Yeah..it really IS. MOST of the research is done by for profit organizations. Pharmacutical and Colleges. Universities are also very much FOR PROFIT. They cetainly do not give education away...or football tickets...or basketball tickets..or books, or parking or anything else.

    The Government is NOT going to save you. Look at the fiscal mess they are in now. Totally inept and throwing more money at failed banks.

  • (cont)Do you really want the Obamanation to ration health care to you like a Katrina victim in New Orleans?

    Have you ever been to a VA hospital? Walter Reed ring any bells?

  • Corporate America is NOT going to save us either. Are you kidding? Big Insurance is in the business of collecting premiums, not paying clams. A great system if you are healthy. But from a national perspective that is not what health care is about. It's not a profit center. It's supposed about be helping each other in their time of need. This nation's health care is cruel on so many levels it is immoral.

    Highest cost. Highest bankrupcies. Millions left uncovered. Most working adults.

  • avid:"Corporate America is NOT going to save us either"

    I never said they would. Some Government regulations are in order to fix the problems we have. Socialism is not a fix. It is trading one problem for a worse problem.

    Proficiency test Doctors, institute a Loser pays litigation system. Make people responsible for the cost of their care. Create a disclosure law for procedure costs up front. Allow REAL free market competition (Like Lasik), and citizenship test care. That will be a start.

  • A simple citizenship test on care would be the first thing to fix the system. People who are not citizens of this country can get care if they pay up front. This does two things. It unburdens the care system of foreign deadbeats and freeloaders, and forces people to get legal, pay as they go, or leave.

    If you HONESTLY look at how many people are really poor and without a health plan...not care...but a plan...the number is about 2% of the population.

  • (cont) If we instituted a citizenship test, I would advocate giving the American citizens who are really poor and really without a health plan some form of Government supplied care. We could do that with no other changes than the citizenship test itself. Why does EVERYONE have to be on the Government dole? They don't.

    We can fix the problems without creating more.

  • (cont) Why do we have to pay for celebrities to go to rehab? We don't. Why do we have to pay for rich people to get vanity treatments they could pay for? We don't. Why MUST we wait in line for months to get MRI's like they do in Canada when any dog or cat there can get one the same day? We don't.

    We can fix what we have and not make matters worse and spend money uselessly for things we should not have to pay for.

  • (cont)I am not an advocate for the insurance companies. I do not think corporate America will fix the problems all by themselves. If Government will inact some simple laws and regulations, they could fix the issues without resorting to scrapping the whole system, taking over the whole system and all the privately owned equipment, and imposing socialism on everyone.

  • (cont) A simple citizenship test is the key. People may say that is cruel. How is asking people who are not citizens of this country to pay for services they get cruel? If they come to this country, they have to expect to pay their own way. If not, they are welcome to go back, or work to get legal and operate within the Federal system afforded to all citizens. If we have to make it a little easier to become citizens, that is acceptable.

  • you do not understand the psychology of avarice, and the motives of the greedhead type conservatives.

    greedheads need to be regulated, they are NOT going to do it on their own.

  • nnny:"greedheads need to be regulated, they are NOT going to do it on their own"

    Did I not JUST say that? Do you have a problem with reading comprehension...or do you just NOT read in the first place?

  • nny:"you do not understand the psychology of avarice, and the motives of the greedhead type conservatives."

    Why must you label people as "greedheads"? Is it any more fair to label people like you "Unrealistic utopian liberal whack jobs"?

    Does labeling make anything you say sit any better with anyone? Or does it pit you against people and make everything you say just more easily dismissable hate speech that no one wants to hear?

  • there are 3 types of conservatives...xenophobes, greedheads and religionists...and they can be differentiated by the deadly sin they are most apt to practice.

    this is not labeling, it is differentiating why people do as they do, and believe as they believe. it is also why people do not want to be conservative.

  • nnny:"this is not labeling"

    It is stereotyping, prejudgmental, and ignorant.

    I am a conservative and I am none of those things you mentioned. I support the Constitution and the freedoms it provides. I am patriotic, and have served my country numerous times in many capacities. I am not rich and want what is best for myself and others. I started poor and worked my way up by hard work and dedication. How do I fit any of your stereotypes?

  • (cont)I do not hate foreiners, I am not greedy, and I am religious, but do not push my religion on others. I am married to someone of a totally different religion than my own. I do not practice conducting or participating in deadly sins.

    Whymust you insist that everyone who is not like you is evil? It seems to me that your ignorance is the evil at work here.

  • What I want to know is why is it evil to work hard, put yourself through school, get an education and make something of yourself, and then want to be able to keep some of what you worked so hard for and not have it stolen from you by the Government to hand out to people who are unwilling to do what you did for yourself? I went to college with a guy with CP in a wheelchair, trying to make a better life for himself. Why is HE evil?

  • (cont)This man was born with cerebral Palsey and has had to work very hard for everything he ever got. Why is he evil for being a conservative and not wanting to give his hard earned money to people who are more able bodied but less willing to work? How does he fit into your mold of greed, xenophobia, or religious zealotry? I do not get it...can you explain?

  • american nationalism is in fact a religion.

    the religionist type conservative suffers the deadly sin of pride.

    why are you so worried that some-one, who suffers the sin of sloth, might get health insurance? the fact is, HR676 would be the most efficient, economical, and egalitarian way to administer heathcare. 69% of MDs support HR 676.

  • nnny:"HR676 would be the most efficient, economical, and egalitarian way to administer heathcare"

    If the US Federal Government is involved, it i guaranteed not to be efficient or economical.

    You have NO idea how Government works.

    But again, how is my friend with Cerebral Palsey...who works hard for every little thing he gets..."Evil"?

  • (cont) How does he fit any of the stereotypical modls you claim are the only three ways a conservative can be?

    He is not a proud man, he is a humble man. He is not greedy, he is deserving of what he works very hard for. Harder than you and I because just to get to or sit in his office environment is a challenge for him every day. He is not rich, his costs are higher than ours to get the special chair and special vehicle.

  • 1st question; does your friend have private health insurance, and if no, why?

    2nd; i'm quite sure i know many more people with 'special needs'. quads, MS, CVAs, CHF, ect. no-one in their right mind with conditions like these would vote for conservatives, as these issues are completely ignored by the greedhead type conservatives, who constantly seek to cut funding for our social safety net. want some examples?

  • nnny:"1st question; does your friend have private health insurance"

    Yes...he works for it....but again...how does he fit into ANY of your models of what conservatives HAVE to be?

  • nnny:" i'm quite sure i know many more people with special needs"...

    So? You know people with special needs and so do I. What is that supposed to mean?

    You made a statement that Conservatives can only be one of three things...yet you have nothin to back that up.

    You hate people who have more than you do, but you are unwilling to work to get ahead yourself. You expect everyone to hand you everything and call them greedy because they are willing to do what you wont.

  • here in florida, we were cursed by jeb bush.

    twig undermined the tax base, and closed mental health facilities.

    florida now has more mentally disturbed people in the criminal justice system then any other stae.

    are you beginning to see the connection between conservativism and human suffering?

  • nnny:"are you beginning to see the connection between conservativism and human suffering?"

    No...I am beginning to see the connection between ignorance and YOU.

    What do YOU do for a living?

  • medicare has been a proven efficient and economical system.

    consider the number of recipiants, the low overhead, and fantastic medical advances made since its inception.

    private insurance companies are expensive and very inefficiant. did you ever see the movie 'sicko' by michael moore?

  • nnny:"medicare has been a proven efficient and economical system"

    That is the biggest load of crap. It is going broke from mismanagement and inefficiency.

  • maybe your friend is not a conservative?

    if he is voting for conservatives, he might just be a dupe voting against his economic intrests

  • nnny:"maybe your friend is not a conservative?"

    Maybe not all disabled people have their hands out. Maybe some work for a living and want to keep what they earned. Do you think maybe that is possible?

    Maybe they do not blame anyone else fopr their situation or expect the Government to be responsible for them. Maybe they think THEY should be responsible for themselves...

    I know...how can THAT be?

  • were you aware that many employers will not hire spinal cord injured folks, or those with CP, MS, bipolar,?

    i recall the working man with 4 kids, who needed a liver transplant, insurance won't pay, now we have a widow with 4 kids.

    do you think 'pre-existing conditions' is a good way to decide who lives and who dies?

  • nnny:"were you aware that many employers will not hire spinal cord injured folks, or those with CP, MS, bipolar?"

    So there is a problem to fix. It is not a reason to make some people pay while others who can work and won't, sit there with their hands out.

    Again, what do YOU do for a living?

  • nnny:"did you ever see the movie 'sicko' by michael moore?"

    Oh dear God...you are one of those idiots who believes every thing you hear as long as it comes from some Liberal Whack job.

    Michael Moore has been exposed as a liar over and over. On YouTube, look for John Stossil's "Sick in America" it is available in 6 parts. Michael Moore is caught lying on camera.

  • Michael Moore claims that there are 47 million AMERICANS who are POOR and WITHOUT CARE. 10 million of that 47 are illegals...NOT Americans. of the 37 mil left, 17 are not poor.

  • Of the 20 mil left, 14 mil are ALREADY eligible for some form of Government care, but do not enroll. That leaves 6 million (2% of the population) who are REALLY POOR and without a health PLAN. each can go to the ER and get care.

  • "Apparently not. One man does not run the country. One party is not in charge. It is not all Bush, Bush, Bush."

    OK who appointed Michael Brown to head FIMA? Who put an inexperienced crony failed horse-show judge in charge of our emergency management agency? Was that... duh.... Clinton? Nope sorry it WAS Bush.

  • nist:"it WAS Bush"

    Now that Bush is gone and Democrats are totally in charge of everything, who are you going to blame when they fail?

  • Weeda

    Medicare is going bankrupt because of out control costs from a corrupt health care system. Remember, the Republican controlled congress allowed the pharma companies to write the Medicare Prescription law and removed any cost controls,such as the power of Medicare to negotiate drug prices as the VA does. That is the biggest reason it is having funding problems. Get the for profit Insurance and drug out of health care and the cost o it will go down. Idiot no, you're just uninformed.

  • teju:"Medicare is going bankrupt because of out control costs from a corrupt health care system"

    Medicare is going bankrupt because of federal mismanagement and all of the hidden costs I already mentioned in great detail.

    Look up "David Walker" on YouTube.

  • I support HR676 I'm under no illusion that the government is perfect, in that it is made up of us citizens and it works as well as our own dedication(Foster Care) However I am even less trusting of the capitalist market which NEVER has the human being in the forefront of its focus but always whether or not a profit can be made. Granted sometimes that involves actually doing a god job, but not if more money can be made without doing a good job. We tax for K-12 we can tax for healthcare.

  • cram:"I am even less trusting of the capitalist market which NEVER has the human being in the forefront of its focus"

    And you think the Government has YOU in it's focus? They are about POWER and CONTROL...not about YOU. They could not give a shit about you. Look at New Orleans and Katrina victims. Did they care about them?

    And...Local taxes pay for schools, it is very different to get fed taxes to support anything. Too bad you do not understand that...or much of anything else.

  • I don't think its necessary to insult people in order to disagree with them.

    I consider Congress a different animal than other civil servants

    I may not know everything but I know that when I had jobs that offered health insurance, it cost 1/3 to 1/2 of my monthly income so obviously I couldn't get it.

    And I know people who have purchased insurance only to be sent rejection letters when they needed the coverage. HR676: YES Insurance companies: NO

  • cram:"I know people who have purchased insurance only to be sent rejection letters when they needed the coverage"

    And I have been rejected by the VA for treatment of service a connected disability just ebcause I was travelling and not in my home state.

    I have seen people who wanted an MRI who were on CA State care denied because the MRI (To see if they might have the cancer they suspected was there) was considered "Elective".

    Gov care - NO. Fix the system - YES.

  • Ode is so right . You don't know what you are talking about. It is a commonly known fact that the federal government is so much more efficient at administering Medicare than any non-profit or for-profit health insurance company. is at administering their brand of health insurance.

    If these phantom costs areso hidden, how did you find them and what are they. Now, be specific. I know it's a challenge, but you can do it.