Added: 4 years ago
From: Thunderf00t
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  • God is the devil.

  • Did Jesus just taunt him into killing someone to make a point? o.O

    Internal inconsistencies is right! They can't even maintain their own fantasy.

  • This video is epic, and the video in question is so phail.

  • Actually... The third reich supported a "positive christianity" in order to recieve the christian vote, they were NOT really in actual support of christianity. Positive christianity meant nothing but a paganistic worship of the germanic race. That is all. The church was afaik NOT aware of this in the beginning, bedazzled by the words of positive christianity, but supporters of the NSAP WERE present in the church even AFTER the real agenda was made apparent.

  • Jesus is a used car salesmen. When you're lying you try to sound sincere. This movie sums up the christians deluted mind (scary).

  • The pope supported the Nazis so much, it was with the Church's help that many Nazis escaped to Argentina.

  • What's religion?

  • I wonder if Jesus appeared to himself when he was dying and kept giving himself cyanide pills at a last supper reconstruction while going *cough* spike *cough* Judas.

  • What They think?? Don't care what you deluded people think I want to know what truths you know..and what is fact. Your ALL deluded fuckwits, what you think nearly all the time has no fact associated with it..

  • @timdnwd i cant even tell if you are a christian or an atheist. your not a caveman,write your sentences properly.

  • jesus sounds like a tool

  • Larry Stevenson...Really? REALLY!? Shittest Name Ever...

  • Thanks for that Thunderf00t. Where did you find this cringe-worthy offering ?

  • Is it just me, or does hearing Thunderf00t say "pop a cap in his ass" just sound... wrong? :-)

  • "Every time you cap an angel, a demon gets its tail."

  • @Terncote you gain +5 internetz

  • @Terncote

    But neither angels nor demons are real, so one cannot "cap" an angel, nor do demons have tails except in the quaint imaginings of Christian artists. This statement is based on silly fantasy. Put away childish things.

  • My grandmother and I have had this exact discussion! She's been asking her preacher how Adam and Eve could have sinned if they had no prior knowledge that it was a sin?

  • TO people in a hurry, the last 10 seconds of that clip wraps it all... :D

  • wouldn't it feel good to pop a cap on his ass? Hell yeah!!

  • He should of shot that bloody angel instead !

  • "that wasn't the real Larry Stephens" so that guy just offed a random man with his buddy J ? AWESOME =D

  • I wish i knew where thunderfoot found this movie i kinda want to see the whole thing, but i can barely find a trace of it anywhere

  • haha it likes bagels

  • WOW WOW WOW WOW WOW!!!! THAT SHITS INSANE!!! I knew that this pope is a foolish ass hole who supports genoside of gays, africans and Muslims, but he used to be a "Hitler youth"????!!!!???!!??!?!?!?!?!­? THAT TAKES THIS SHIT TO A HOLE NEW LEVEL!!! Fucking shizzwizzle I cant believe it!!! BOYO DO I GOT A GREAT STORY TO BREAK TO MY FRIENDS AT MY CATHOLIC SCHOOL!!! (lol bigest teen atheist ever goes to a catholic school. Teehee

  • Why is Jesus american?

  • @SeanathenII He just is OK? He just is, now have a joint and enjoy jesus LOL

    he's always been american on pics, vids and T-Shirts for some reason never looked jewish. That's the arrogance of american Christians, they can't even recognise he wasnt white and God seams to appear as a white man with a white beard too.

    This vid is hilarious i love thunderfoot i just discovered his vids last night they rock!

    ATHEISTS RULE WOOOOOHOOOOO

  • @bluffr22 check out his "Why Do People Laugh At Creationists" series. it's really quite excellent :)

  • @bluffr22 Because every time he brings up things like how got comanded the old testy (yes i just did that) christians, for example sol (i think its spelled that way) commanded by god to kill every Mohabite man, woman, and child, and sol refused, god got relly pissed at him. that kind of thing attacks both because old testy christian are jews. + he refers to christian god as the "Judao/ Christian" god. this is 1 the accepted turm everywhere, and 2 truthful, incompising both religions.

  • @SeanathenII

    LOL you mean Jesus ISN'T AMERICAN ??? I'm sure you will have to be executed under the patriot act for that sentiment (jk)

  • i theorize that the angle was accenty a secret CIA agent who kidnap a rondom guy, took off his cloths and shave his body while asleep, carry him to a dark alley to wake him up, give him a short gun and lie to him that the fat guy was his wife's muderer so he will kill him and the CIA Angle guy can escape. a more better exporlation

  • I'm always naked and hairless when watching Thunderf00t videos, but that's mostly because I'm bald and poor.

  • What the heck are you talking about? This movie isn't even mainstream and is by far not even marketed outside the Internet. Why critique a movie that hardly nobody saw?

  • @studiousx3

    "hardly nobody" is equal to "mostly everybody"

  • @395Javelin Your logic is heavily flawed.

  • @studiousx3

    How? Please understand the difference between logic and grammar.

    Re read what you wrote.

  • If you look at it in a scientific way, the arguement for or against a God. Human morality is the least valueable. People being nice to each other, or being savage assholes to each other has no bearing on the matter. It offers no reasonalbe or scientic proof for the existence of a God, or of non existence of a God, But because the way religious people belief things, you often get sucked into this pointless arguement.

  • i do really hate religion with a passion..can any 1 come up with a serious answer to how we can make religion redundant within our world? i only wish god wud inspire me with that answer.:(

  • @hyams1 wipe out humanity unfortunatly it's our nature that is responsible (partialy at least) for such things

  • Evil is ETERNAL! it is mans true nature, anyone who does not wish to accept this about themselves is free to be crushed under the heels of those who do.

  • @Bleakillusion

    Humans are neither good nor evil. We have been given this rather silly moral duality construct by religion, but in practice it just doesn't work. Things that were considered evil enough to kill you over in the past are considered normal in the present, and things that were considered good in the past will land you in jail these days. Morality is dependent on culture and it's shifts over time and circumstance.

  • I would have so much more respect for my church if we still advocated the massacring of protestants, maybe then people would still take us seriously as world power.

  • @Bleakillusion

    No, then the Vatican would be wiped off the map in an afternoon.

  • does anyone else find the donut hole analogy while touching the naked atheist deeply creepy?

  • I love how you call the Protestants "Settlers" in Ireland. In reality it was a couple of attempts by the English crown to drive, breed and swindle the Irish out of their own land.

  • @meloveoasis Err, thats laughable...should we also call all the catholic irish in England 'invaders who should be kicked out'? Grow up...just because you are too biggoted to accept settlers from other religions/nations it doesnt mean the rest of the world is...In England Catholics, Protestants, Jews, Rastas, Irish, Scots, Welsh etc get on fine, why cant they in Ireland?

  • I'm Norwegian, woho!

  • Head shaved and naked? PRISON RAPE!!!

  • Being an "Ex" christian fornication is sex outside of marrage not sex itself, the rest I agree with.

  • wow, what a shit movie

  • Rofl at the very end. When he kept saying "false witness" really slow like that it reminded me of those Tappy Tibbons infomercials in Requiem For A Dream that Sara watches as her downers kick in.

    "This...drives...most...people­...cra...zy..."

  • "Evil is the absence of god", He quoted Einstein. Though, this can vary from a diferent point of view. In one says God, in a way of saying "reason, kindness, love", then the statement remains true, but would mean that u can replace the word God by other words.

  • @Christmasgoat. This stupid system makes it too hard to find my original comment. I think my real point wasn't that all Nazis were pro-pagan, but that very few Nazis, including Hitler, were actively pro-Christian. I know Hiitler professed a nominal Christian faith (I didn't remember whether he was Catholic, which would put him at odds with the U.S. KKK back then) but it was pretty much window dressing and lip service. It is simply ahistoric to say the Nazis were a Christian movement.

  • @ForwardtoYesterday My Social Studies teacher in 7th grade was a Child during WWII in Germany. She said most Germans were devout Catholics.

  • Hunt in the ZOO :D :D Rofl

  • That is evidently the way Christians feel God works

  • Oh no no no, Nazis didn't pay lip service, Hitler was a VERY devout Catholic, had the full support of the Pope and church, read the bible unlike most, and if you think it odd for the Catholic Church to support Jewish genocide, you clearly forgot the Spanish Inquisition. (as opposed to not expecting it; lol) Side note: The current pope is a former Hitler youth.

  • @JasonosuketheOtaking The Spanish Inquisition didn't kill Jews, it just deported all of them.

  • I'm an agnotistic and not at all religious, but this video loses me when it tries to portray the Holocaust as somehow a Christian crime. The Nazis paid lip service to Chrisitianity, but were mostly anti-Christian. Those who claim to have a very factual belief system have to stick to the facts. Too many mlitant atheists seem to be motivated by raw hostility. In my experience, nice people who are drawn to religion find in it a reason to do good. Mean religious people do the opposite. It's a mirror

  • @ForwardtoYesterday The circle around Himmler was anti-christian, that is true, but Hiter himself was a catholic. Nazis flirted with pagan themes, but Himmler was the only one in power who took it seriously.

  • I would shoot the fat fuck and not have one seconds regret.

  • Hypocrisy seems very common among religious people. They don't even try to do it, they just do it. I think it is now safe to say that this is no longer a stereo type but a fact.

  • @ 8:45 , ROFL, just ask Christine O'Donnel

  • Why is "walking around naked" on the same list as speeding, carrying nuclear materials (presumably without proper safety precautions being ensured), breaking a quarantine (of a preumably deadly disease), and hunting animals at the zoo?

  • @rogermwilcox All illegal.

  • @Microja Yes, but the list was supposed to illustrate WHY it's necessary to give up some freedoms in order to gain the benefits of a social structure. All the examples, EXCEPT the walking-around-naked one, were things that had a good chance of harming others or destroying something they worked for.

  • @rogermwilcox True, true.

    I would say Merry Christmas, but that would look hypocritical.

  • Thunderf00t, but the acting in 3:05 to 4:08 is so compelling and so, uhm, brilliant that I'm gonna have to side with the Christians on that one.

  • 0:21

    What the hell would "Kant's Dialectic" be doing in a guys bookshelf with nothing but Nietzsche, Darwin, and Dawkins?

  • Yep, sure is logic in that movie!

  • The guy who plays Jesus look liks Ray Comfort... Ughhh...

  • Thunderf00t. I love your brilliant videos but saying that the 1641 violence is soley due to ''religion'' is grossly understated. Protestants in Ireland were the oppressers of the catholic natives. It was political and ethnic more so.

    Sorry Tf00t.

  • @Primordialfan1 there tons of examples where religion started wars, hell it even goes on today. That was a poor choice of an example though

  • @assassinsrock

    Of course. I wasn't against the point he made. Just the example he used. :)

  • Freedom to:

    GO HUNTING AT THE ZOO, LOL

  • I usually like your vids tf00t. This one ain't so good. It's full of fallacies. For example, you say, "W/o fornication, society's doomed". Well, not really. Fornication in Christianity is evil, but sex in marriage is fine. You say that lying has virtues in some situations. Interestingly enough, this *exact* story is in the Bible, and the "liar" is exhalted throughout the OT and NT. It's in Joshua ch. 2, where Rahab hides the spies sent to investigate the land.

  • @sk8teh14 "Fornication in Christianity is evil.."

    Why is that? Is the christian god so picky, it has to complain about humans fornicating?

  • @GreatExterminator

    It more has to do with the idea of being born in sin. I mean, there's no kidding really. Everyone openly acknowledges that sex feels evil. I mean that's what all the pornographic material is on. "A dirty girl." But the question isn't does it feel evil or is it evil, but why is it evil? It's to emphasize that each person is born in sin. Only by sin is a human born into the flesh. And to be saved he must be born again through the Spirit.

  • @sk8teh14

    Still doesn't answer my question.

  • 3:05 Sound off, looks a like into to a gay christian porno

  • classic pwnage

  • Whether you believe in God or not, this is obviously an atrocious and awful film. I'd be hard pressed to find anyone who would like it.

  • This is the first time I even heard of this "movie".

    I could tell from the start it has "bullshit" written all over it.

    How fun it is to see christians leave out the gory parts of their own history as they try to teach it to others.

  • I'm a Confusionist , I believe in Confusionanity and Confusionism

  • Who made this movie? I would guess some kids from Christian highschool got together and made it with there cellphone cameras.

  • Hello, he's the Christian Fundamentalist Critic, he remembers it so you don't have to!

  • This movie should win oscars.

  • LMAO.

    this is the kind of crap you'd expect in north korea.

  • That "angel" needs to do some reading about health because that donut he ate is full of sugar. The issue of a proper diet is much more important than religious garbage which can't be proven.

  • go hunting to the zoo HAHAHHAHAHH

  • Oh, please, lower yourself! Stoop down! Spank the ignorant! Some may say silence would be consent.

    Fundamentalist Christians go too far out in unreality. It grates on them that their Bible talks of momentous events and direct contacts with God that never happen to THEM. So their minds in self-defense must construct a fantasy that they are at the crux of momentous divine events in history. Nope, as George Carlin said, that's false; "the world is just rolling, rolling, rolling along!"

  • even the acting is sub par, ive seen middle schoolers show better emotion. but at least they didnt ahve the big booming voice.

  • Yeah the holy vision is the brain being flooded with Dimethyltryptamine DMT. I smoke DMT about once a month and have 5-10 minute holy visions of my own!

  • Shit! Why can't I go hunting at the zoo? It's much easier there!

  • The "angel" sounds like he's a stoner and the movie looks like a brian washing cult but that is what most christian videos are realy

  • Please don't confuse Christian faith with Christian religion. Religions of various kinds have been the vehicle of much hatred and bloodshed. Christian faith points to a bigger unverse, beyond the material universe of our senses, a unverse that physicists are only just beginning to discover. According to Christian faith.... no I'm not going to try and define Christian faith in less than 200 words. Find out for yourself what real Christians believe, then shape your arguments.

  • @dontyoumonkeyaround

    Could you refer to a lecturer or a site? I believe I've heard this argument before from somewhere..

  • @AgentRiot13 try googling -between religion and faith "difference"- there are various answers none of which are definative, all of which add a bit of understanding.

  • @dontyoumonkeyaround Well *I've* had science training and physicists are not on the verge of discovering spiritual realms. Scientists don't talk that way that there is some "God" that doesn't figure into their equations yet. They know that NOTHING IN THE UNIVERSE NEEDS ANY GOD OR CREATOR TO EXIST!

    So stop bearing false witness about the state of science today. Either you prove your shit directly, OR you must be resigned to the fact we live in a 100% material universe. Deal!

  • @Dracopol Just because one discipline talks of spiritual realms,third heaven etc and other talks of bosons,quarks,multi-dimensiona­l superstring and dark matter, doesn't mean they're referring to different things-don't be fooled by the jargon.There are many (100's of 1000's) scientists and teachers more educated, intelligent and experienced than you or Thunderf00t or I, who live by the Biblical worlview.Human reason is flawed, because humans are flawed. Declaring speculation as truth is a lie.

  • @dontyoumonkeyaround It is impossible to quantify your claim that there are tons of intelligent scientists who believe in the Bible. Actual polls show that scientists who are religious are a MINORITY. There was an attempt by Bible wackoes to assemble a group of scientists who believed in Creationism, but Project Steve found many more who asserted evolution -- just among those scientists named Steve or Stephen!

  • Don't agree with the philosophical argument at 4:50

  • @GoblinKnightLeo why not. we dont let people do what ever in sosaity. there are rules in socaity rules that restric freedome.

  • @gooddarkjedi Because it's not the giving up of freedom that defines a society. Society does not impose such rules, exactly (I'm using an idealized society here). Instead, the rights of each individual are protected by law. Rights in the Lockean sense: life, liberty, and property.

    For example, walking around naked on your own property is something you can do, but on someone else's property you need their permission.

    You cannot, however, fail to respect their rights, and then demand that they

  • @gooddarkjedi respect yours. That's fallacious at best, and they've got no reason to do so. You would have the right to demand respect for your rights from others, however, if you never infringed theirs. This is a "trade" of sorts, and the trader principle is highly important to the development of the constitutional republican system.

    You can set off tear gas in your backyard, for example, but not if the gas can reach your neighbors. You can fire your gun, but not if the bullets can hit someone.

  • @Thunderf00t

    Can you post a link to this movie (IMDB link or something)

  • That was an awesome video. I am pretty sure the creators of 'The Atheist' are crazy. I need to meet these people.

  • Is it just me, or did Jesus in this video resemble The Dude from The Big Lebowski

    Atheist: "God doesn't exist."

    Jesus: "Yeah? Well, that's -like- your opinion, man."

  • Okay, I really have to say, APART from the horrible concept and writing, aside from that, this movie looks horrible! the acting is terrible, the filming is awful, infact, from what I've seen, this may be one of the worst movies I have ever seen! Believe me, I sat through the star wars christmas special (it was hard to find) so its pretty hard to make it on that list. I could do better with a couple of my friends and a cell camera. in fact I am. just on a different topic. hmmm.

  • now you know why america is shyt? cause their leader jesus "fn" christ is as corrupt as the corporations that run it

  • I think the man in this video is naked so the christian directors could stare at a man's junk for an extended period of time while they filmed.

  • I wish I could "like" this video more. Great job Tf00t! When I was brainwashed Christian a few years ago, I would have unquestioningly overlooked all of the blatant and manipulative material in that video. Thank you for doing what you do to help free our minds.

  • @Smokatronic Good for you dude, its gratifying to see that people can reason there way out of religion and not get bogged down with it all their life.

  • @happyidiottalk or we could believe in reality rather than fiction (which is what religions are based on).

  • @happyidiottalk Thank you. It took a while, but once you allow for the possibility of the scam to enter your mind, the rest comes painfully, but easily. I'm glad I found out before I did too much damage to my own children. My 9 and 10 year old boys are still learning fantasy vs reality truths as it is (i.e. starting to figure S Claus etc) so I think I can undo some indoctrination.

  • Nostalgia Critic will bring down his epic hammer of pwnage on this piece of ass.

  • Okay, now that I've watched this video I can say that that movie IS annoying . Full brainwashing like most of the films from that genre. What bugs me with christianity in particular is the fact that only no-brainers and children fall for it. After all we've discovered about our universe and disproofed so many statements from the bible, still they make up new stupid arguments to "proof" the existence of god somehow...

  • "The same angel forgets to mention that arguably the greatest genocide ever perpetrated was done by a christian nation." 1) Although Germany was a christian nation, it was not the reason for the genocide that occured. This is fallatic reasoning, which officially goes by the name false cause and effect. The cause for the genocide was the racial ideology of nazism. 2) Hitler said that religions emphasizing compassion, love etc were weak/slave religions (these included christianity).

  • Beware of the mysterious lense flare! >=D

  • At 6:29 - I wouldn't have killed that man. But the Bible says "An eye for an eye".

  • @therealmetroidmaniac "An eye for an eye" is a tenet of civil law, not criminal law.

  • awesome

  • @DollMommy10

    "Can a baby conceive itself?"

    Really? *That's* your 'trump card' 'falsifying' evolution?

    A better question would be:

    Can you *conceive* logic?

  • @DollMommy10 What does God need to make him exist. All you you are doing is begging the question also evolution doesn't explain the origin of life it explains the diversity, abiogenesis is the study of the origin of life. Also also Creation doesn't explain how life got here in the first place any more than the Flying Spaghetti Monster explains why people can talk, all it does is propose an unprovable and unlikely hypothesis that has very little grounding in reality.

  • I just wonder what makes Christians ... Christian. Are they just stupid? Or, delusional? I used to believe in God ... and I'm trying to figure out why I did. I think I was just ... uneducated/ignorant. I didn't care for the scientific method of critical thinking. I believed in God, for the same reasons why a child would believe in Santa Claus. I eventually grew a brain, but some don't. I think for some people, it's just impossible to let go of their invisible friend they love so much.

  • what the fuck is jesus snacking on in that video?

  • I love the humping furry animals

  • I love god doughnuts.

  • Though Hitler was a big one. I would say the Native American death rate of over 350 million estimated dead should have been a good point.

    Also though Hitler is just one who used it i would like to point out Stalin 20 million estimated dead. He later brought the church back just to change the mind of the USSR people and say it was a holy war against the nazis. Thus giving him power that would let him enslave his people in the name of some god

  • Christians from birth= brainwash

    Born again Christians= IQ lower then 80

    Fundamentalist christian= attention desiring christian

  • @lifemetall what about apologetic christians?

  • apologetic Christians = pinpointing bastards

    (pointing at rational parts of the bible and avoiding 80% that makes it retarded and unmoral

  • nice!

  • @lifemetall Well said

  • @lifemetall I regret that the first 16 years of my life fall into the former category :(. Fortunately my IQ is over 120 so I have since got myself out of this cult.

  • All theft is immoral.

  • @jaymthegenius is it? is it wrong to steal from corpse? it might be moraly wrong but so i starving to death. ask a man not to steal food in hunger you are besicly asking them to die. if you think so then dont eat anything bechose the life of the food is stolen. dont drive car bechose it cases global warming and droght in africa where people die. you migth not make a difrence but hey all harming is imoral. only thing that we can try to do is not harm each other.

  • @gooddarkjedi no, it's not wrong to steal from a corpse. Ownership ceases upon death, unless previously ceded to someone else via the will of the deceased. In this way, inheritance is justified, but taking from an Egyptian tomb is also, because the pharaoh left no will for the contents of the tomb to go to a living person. A corpse is not distinguishable from an inanimate object, and thus cannot have property rights.

  • @jaymthegenius naa, if you steal food from somebody that has a million cans of food and give it to a kid in africa who's dying of hunger... thats not even remotely immoral. Try not to generalize so easily bro...

  • @nestorlovesguitar Stealing is immoral. Do you ASK the man who has a million cans of food to see if he can donate one to an African kid? Or do you go ahead and steal? Sure it's immoral to steal.  We must even ask the hard questions: are Africans worth it? Even the co-discoverer of DNA, James Watson, wrote off Africa as a "lost cause". Maybe that can can be of better service feeding my cat!

  • Your refuting of Christianity as moral is well done. Although serial killers, rapist, etc simply don't have a right to live. Committing initiatory force is the ultimate evil.

  • Awesome video! But the Christains will never understand it.

  • how did a small German nation take on Russia and nearly the hole world

  • "Bearing false witness", in Exodus and Deuteronomy, refers specifically to lying under oath at a trial. Everyday, garden-variety lying isn't False Witness, and is not prohibited by the Commandments.

  • Proverbs 12:22 -- "Lying lips are abomination to the LORD: but they that deal truly are his delight." Not prohibited by the commandments? I'll leave that to individual interpretation, but the BIG G is not down with the lying, and I think that was the point being made. Lying=bad, but an angel does it to mind fuck some poor dude.

  • There's an atheist movie? Even the clips look badly done and condescending. Doubt I'll bother watching the whole thing, looks like the same religious pandering as always.

    I especially love that the "atheist" was only an atheist because of personal tragedy. Bias straight off! Atheists must have suffered horribly to decide to leave such a "loving" god, lol!

  • @applefrog111 Fuck him then, i will not be forced to "love" someone. Not gonna happen.

  • Long cat is a false dietl ceilingct isthe one true! God.

  • martialme84, you link love to sex and yet neither is required for the other to exist, please think about negatively commenting on applefrog111 next time as he is clearly not being serious with the intentional mispelling of jesus, being jebus.

  • What? :?

    I had the intention of supporting applefrog´s statement. I understood him as being ironic and mocking christian faith. So i threw in with him and made my statement.

    "Fuck him" is not meant litterally. I could have said "screw him" or "forget him" as well.

    I think you and me simply have a language-barrier here. ;)

    Peace

  • Longcat is love he loves you but if you don't love him you will burn in steaksause.

    See? I can do it too.

  • Sorry HailChaos i couldnt come up with a better one than that, was laughing too much :P

  • Wow, those drums in that movie were awful.

  • The movie's dialogue is like that of porn except without the fun parts.

  • @MopDMTBARTL if god was all about love why so much violence?

  • The angel looks like The Dude from The Big Lebowski....

  • well, the dude abides

  • Hello MopDMTBARTL.

    Was it love when Jesus saw the money lenders on the steps of the temple, so he left the temple, went and gathered the raw materials to build a scourge, put the scourge together, then came back to beat the money lenders in an act of pre-meditated violence and anger?

    That's Jesus's love? Um, okay, awesome!

  • Bloody hell, Christ looks like an 80's era Billy Connelly.

  • I like your video thunderf00t. However you erroneously proxy Irish Christian history. I revised my national history once again. Unfortunately, the realm of religion and politics had been rather inter-twined at that period (King James).. Whilst I might add that the theocratic motivations of Cromwellian and William of Orange invasions set the standard for polarising ideologies against one another.

    Not simply a Catholic error. But as I may comment with bias, I say your bias should be noted.

  • And all the players of the nasty 1600s period were believers in the "prince of peace", eh?

  • Of varying denominations.. Including those on the receiving end in either case.