EVS23: Fuel Cell or Fool-Sell, Hydrogen Hype Tape 4

[dan020350]

i think that was the wrong person to ask questions. But all is good :)

[dan020350]

1 million dollar fuel cell car?

[theoneagain]

fuel cell technology is dead ITS WAY TOO EXPENSIVE TO PRODUCE FOR THE LIKES OF THE ORDINARY GUY WHO WORKS IN THE FACTORY

WE NEED CHEAP LOW COST VEHICLES

[wendeltech]

I talked to Daimler at the car exhibition in Frankfurt in 2007 about H2 Fuelcells, and thy told me they are doing Datamining. That means that the fuelcells sometimes fails and they don't know why. I've seen some of the cars at a research-Centre in Ulm, looked very much like any other car, because the A-Class is made to be an electric car, so all the components can be integrated in the bottom of the car, but they should use Nimh, LiFe or ZEBRA.

Fuelcells burn more money than Hydrogen ;-) .

[Dilekz]

This video shows what fuel cell really is: It's crap.

Nobody gets told it degrade's ( they only tell battery's degrade.. but fuel cell? they dont want to tell it .. )

And the power output is poor. And you stop and start a car ALOT. And thats bad for a fuel cell either.

Put the fuel cell investigation money in battery investigation.. Would be alot better!

He said 4000 hours to 9000 hours? thats like 5-10 years if you drive 2 hours a day. ( to work )

As always.. we want NUMBERS! :)

[skagitt]

Is it plausible that this would be cheaper if it were mass produced? Daahhhh!

[llojaw]

I love it hydrogen car I must be dremming .

make more cars please .oil companies greedy bastad watch this video is free.

[Rev0lutionIsMyName]

So here's a question...If the electrolysis process were performed on-board and the component hydrogen/oxygen gases were sent directly to the fuel cell, would this alleviate the filtering problem?

[liveoilfree]

That would be a "regenerative" fuel cell, that hydrolyzes the water it produces back to constituent O2 and H2 gases, recompresses them (possibly in a lower-pressure separate tank) when BRAKING. But overall, regen braking only recovers a FRACTION of the energy it took to get the vehicle moving in the first place.

[macacoman]

Ok to start there are all ready post card cars using hidrogen as energey and it last for long time i drive one so this is better than using gas if that to bad of power recorce and why dont you use a nuclear power plant in your car?? You ass hole to the end punk mother fucker.

[liveoilfree]

FC seminar Oct. 17 expects fork lift PEM life of 3-5 years. I should have forced Ballard to disgorge this info. fuelcellseminar (dot) com /pdf /2007/Presentations/4B/421%20S­tone. ppt. pdf

[DanFrederiksen]

I'm en EV fan and believe fuel cells have been a dangling carrot too but how do you translate 4000 hours of operation into 24000 miles? that's an average of 6mph. he doesn't say 24000 miles in the video, he says 4000 hours. if we are going to shoot down the FC let's do it right, otherwise we might be wrong

[liveoilfree]

You're right. The "4,000 to 10,000" hours somehow has to translate to 3 years of life, which comes from a separate source. This was just sloppy on my part. I should have asked "how long?" and forced them to clarify that the stack only lasts 2 to 3 years.

[liveoilfree]

I was baiting them with questions to which  I already knew the answers: for example, the one which elicited their claim to filter out HxCx. I should have challenged the "4000 hours" to ask "how many years"?

[DanFrederiksen]

we need a degradation graph in practical car use. looking at this limited spec sheet: w w w. ballard. com/files/pdf/Spec_Sheets/SPC5­101375_-_Mark1030. pdf

it says it can only run above freezing. that's a complication as well. a curious detail is the low power density though. little over 1kW for a 20kg package. 60kW would weigh a ton. Honda claims the FCX clarity has 100kW power. I wonder what that stack weighs

[DrBrazil1]

Whatever the weight is it. The FCX PEMFC is one heavy block of $700,000 worth of platinum catalysts that only lasts for 3 years.

[liveoilfree]

Crunk,

Fuel cells are a convenient fiction used to kill Electric cars.

The whole thing is a sham and a lie; it's not "conspiracy", it's just business. The auto companies want to continue making gasoline cars, not EVs! So they dumped billions into futile Fuel Cell "research" to con the gullible.

[milofonbil]

My prediction - another EV1 "conspiracy" It's about hedging bets to stay in business rather than developing anything. Ford-DaimlerChrysler just bought the FC patents from Ballard so they stand to compete against Honda if FC takes off. Large oil companies, such as Shell and BP are already licking their chops because they know oil is finished and they need things to sell. When FC has the first hickup, the oil companies will buy up the patents.

[milofonbil]

Oil and car company executives know some about the technologies but a lot about playing high stakes poker - placing good bets and covering your risks. Car companies just want to cover all their bets - gasoline, electric, FC and whatever else comes along. Look for more patent purchases in the electric arena.

[crunkworks]

I'm done. It's really too emotional talking about this stuff. We don't talk 'physics', we talk in misleading statements.

My real advice- is learn about fuel cell/hydrogen tech in all its complexity. Don't just take the problems and stop there. And learn nano/bio energy. H2 doesn't save the world. But to change the auto industry, we need it. It is not a waste of time. And it won't cost trillions of dollars. Please read and learn.

[1erLespoissons]

Every sentence you type is a misleading statement.

If you go through the entire hydrogen chain starting with AC-DC conversion, electrolysis, compression, or liquefaction, transportation, storage, re-conversion the electricity by fuel cells with subsequent DC-AC, there are additional losses in every process stage. This is physics, not poor handling. And as the laws of physics are eternal, there was no past, there is no present, and there will be no future for a hydrogen economy.

[crunkworks]

Yes, yes, I've heard it before. Show me the energy lost charts again. Just like the charts that showed theoretical speed limits of propeller based planes before the rocket engine came along. Or land speeds with horses before combustion engine. Yes, there is lose in every conversion. I understand that. Those loses also change with new catalysts that improve conversion, new storage methods.

[crunkworks]

But business is business. And the auto industry cares about scalability. Tell me again that batteries are where the auto execs are leaning towards? Show me that article. And then show the late 1990s articles about how FCs won't start in the cold and therefore won't work in Michigan? Show me the 1997 chart with the truck that consumes more H2 during transport than it carries. I love all those old ways of thinking. .

[liveoilfree]

Auto industry has no interest in fuel cells except to forestall Electric cars. Everyone knows it's a joke, and these Ballard folks just show how few answers there are. 24,000 miles is all they last; imagine buying a new $300,000 fuel cell after 3 years.

[crunkworks]

I cannot see how you make that claim when so many automakers (GM, Honda, Hyundai, Nissan, Daimler,) all state clearly that the long-term, end game for electric propulsion is a COMBINATION of batteries, FCs and capacitor. Yet, you cling to this conspiracy and focus on current H2 challenges. And it just confuses me? Why is your glass half empty? Why do you fight these things with false and misleading claims? We need all three systems. Not one. Why fight?

[liveoilfree]

Crunk,

If auto makers were interested in defining "the endgame", how come there's not one EV or FC for sale on the open market??

The few hundred BEV that were sold to the public still, and will, out number ALL fuel cell cars, even leased and experimental.

[DanFrederiksen]

where did they say fuel cells will be in the future?

[milofonbil]

Also watch this YouTube: UCSD Division of Physical Sciences "Energy and Climate: Challenges and Solutions." It weighs EVs versus H2 FC cars. Joseph J. Romm's arguments against the FC is much much simpler than oilfree's. In that YouTube they say that viable FC's might be 5 to 50 years out.

[liveoilfree]

crunkworks, you should do some research. Take a look at driving the future dot com.

[crunkworks]

What is that site? Research or dated, conspiracy agenda page. The auto industry does not have an oil problem. They have a propulsion platform problem. We all agree that electric motors are it. You say batteries alone can scale up for the industry to move forward. You say 'plug in' is easy. I say no way. Batteries do not scale up. You must build that infrastructure exten$ion of electricity.

[liveoilfree]

Crunk,

This posting has so much falsity in it, it's not worth replying.

Plug-in is easy, and off-peak power is plentiful; actually, it's easy to prove two things:

1. There's enough solar capacity on rooftops to replace all our generators;

2. There's more than enough off-peak capacity to replace all gasoline burned in cars, if used to power BEV.

[milofonbil]

They will argue that there is a lot of waste methane around that they can crack into hydrogen and pump it into the gas pipelines. The timing is about right so that when the cable company brings their fiber into the neighborhood to hookup your HD TV, they will bring a hydrogen line to the gas station.

[milofonbil]

Batteries do not scale up due to Chevron patents, nothing more. I have held 3.3 volt 90AH lithium cells in my hand. They are building delivery trucks that run on batteries. What scale do you need?

[mianersiyok]

LOL, you really go off into tangents don't you? Jet planes cost a lot more to operate than do propeller planes. I'll travel to the tangent you have gone off to, to help you understand better. A Hydrogen car will be the Concorde. LOL!

[crunkworks]

Sorry for confusion. It is not a tangent. It's a worldview comparison. The skeptic worldview is H2 production/storage cannot happen given today's systems(propeller era); You cannot see beyond today's era into a new one (jet propolsion) which for H2 is nanoscale catalysts that lower cost. Solid state storage for retail distribution. New eras that break limits of old eras. That was the point.

[crunkworks]

The whole point is not 'cost' of a jet plane. But the fact that in the previous era- a jet plane was not something that anyone could imagine. And therefore the limits of the previous era appeared to be 'the end game'. You all talk of batteries as if its the end game. And I question that view.

[mianersiyok]

I don't question that hydrogen powered cars could be a good thing, it could. What i'm saying is it'll always be expenisive because it takes more energy to make it than it produces. It'll always be that way in our life times. EVs are already more affordable than FCVs and the infrastructure is already here to charge EVs. Why are we waiting for fuel cell cars when we can start doing something now with EVs while we wait?

[mianersiyok]

We're not making a proper transistion into FCVs when skipping mass production of EVs.

It's like skipping internet 1.0 and going directly going to 2.0 (youtube is a 2.0 site). People should not have to wait for something three times better than an ICE car when they could have something twice as better, an EV. DO you get my point? It's like a child skipping their teens and going directly to adulthood.

[mianersiyok]

and while the child is going straight to adulthood, its not changing. Thats the best analogy I can think of.

[liveoilfree]

Mian,

Hydrogen powered cars will never be more than a curiosity, unless energy becomes free. The cost of tech-grade H2 is the equivalent of $18/gallon, and it will only go up as energy cost rises.

[milofonbil]

There are a few Direct Solar to H2 patents out there. I'm sure the oil companies will look to invest in the little companies developing that technology. Since the oil companies own the gas pipelines they will be building solar farms in oil dry, sun rich places and fill the pipelines with hydrogen.

[crunkworks]

That same logic of step by step energy loss would, applied to electricity, mean in the late 1880s saying 'there is no past, present or future for an electricity economy'.

[crunkworks]

And if you really look at the FC cost structure around MEAs (membranes) you see so clearly that its path will sooner or later drop below the cost of combustion engines. It scales. Batteries do not scale, nor do they deliver energy in the way needed for powerful motors.  FCs operate like I.C.E. platforms. Tell me why FCs are expensive. Please tell me why they will 'always' be expensive. Don't just say it's expensive w/o knowing why...

[mianersiyok]

They're expenisive because the companies like to keep them that way. Even if they become affordable for companies to mass produce them they'll still charge more than they actually cost to make at inflated prices, that would be to make more profit to come up with the next scheme of making even greater profit. When fewer people and companies start profiting at greater rates more and more, less people see new technology and new innovation. Less people have more.

[liveoilfree]

Crunk,

You ask "tell me why", but what you need to do is LEARN FOR YOURSELF.  You have not even studied this video, wherein the Ballard guy admits that the fuel cell wears out after 24,000 miles, refuses to admit that it's HxCx in the air, and makes the preposterous claim that HxCx can be filtered out.

[milofonbil]

FCs will be expensive until the technology is fully developed, can be mass-produced and all of the engineering costs (overhead) has been bought and paid for.  Why were cellphones so expensive and why have the prices dropped to where everyone can afford one. HD TV's are doing the same thing. PHEVs, EVs and FCs will all do the same thing.

[milofonbil]

After watching the YouTube "Energy and Climate: Challenges and Solutions" I can confidently say that Hydrogen does not stand a chance in working.  Hydrogen is really not that good of a fuel for transportation. Simply put, there is more hydrogen in a gallon of gasoline than there is in a gallon of liquid hydrogen.

[DrBrazil1]

PEMFCs use a platinum catalyst, which is very expensive.

$7,000/kW. It is true that the costs of PEMFC might conceivably be reduced over time due to technology improvements (although no real cost reduction has been achieved over the past decade despite several billion dollars in research investment). Moreover, if somehow the vehicles ever went into mass production, increased demand would drive the price of the platinum they contain, and thus the overall system cost, through the roof.

[daddyo44907]

No future for a hydrogen economy? Pure Physics? Put away that overpriced education. I generate hydrogen & oxygen, while I drive, using water and the left over power of my alternator; achieving as much as 66 miles on a quart of gasoline. Others have achieved more; much more.

[Dilekz]

Overpriced education?? you didnt even go school right? you don't know we do research to!! We don't get told at us like Here this is it.. and its like this. No we have to investigate ourselfs! And we have fuel cells at school few of them. And it's a big LIE!.. ill tell ya!

[daddyo44907]

Do you have any HHO Generators in those schools - young fella. There is a difference you know. You won't learn it book.

[Dilekz]

HHO ? no, just H2 in gas bottles. Why?

You need H2 for those fuel cells... they dont accept other gasses. They will degrade even faster. They degrade because they dont get pure oxygen out of the air. There is a little fan on the fuel cell that circulates the air.

[daddyo44907]

Hydrogen technology is coming fast; not from the scientists; not from the highly educated; but from we the people; the ones with the "Common" sense. We remember the Past; We live in the Present; and we make the Hydrogen Future - TODAY.

[trevorlsciact]

You didn't say anything at all, you sound like a politician. Fuel Cell tech is expensive, inefficient, the fuel is expensive, the whole ecosystem has to be set up, it just makes no sense. EVs are the way to go, EVs and EREVs. I'll forgive GM for the EV1 if the Volt works out, hopefully it will, the rest of the industry will follow suit.

[diggingforgold]

"You didn't say anything at all, you sound like a politician."

XD

[crunkworks]

And enough of the 'million dollar' car stuff. Get current. Honda is close. GM has transferred 500 R&D engineers to production mode. Nissan is getting in line. FC costs are all about membranes. Nanoscale frameworks for platinum and alt. electrodes are dropping costs. This isn't a linear model. Breakthroughs happen. Stop with the poor, outdated arguments and learn about current state of research. 2003 is over. Oil companies are not evil- and they love H2 b/c of the role of natural gas

[HAL11000]

Oil companies are not evil? Ever seen Drilling and Killing?

[crunkworks]

It's silly really. Pure emotion. Yes, H2 is an energy carrier. Energy lose there. Of course. So is electricity, but you are not complaining about the major energy loss there. H2 doesn't save the world. But the auto industry needs a scalable electrochemical power system to propel cars. Not power small gadgets. SCALABILITY. Power densities and deliver flows from FCs will beat out batteries. I'm not anti-battery. Just realistic with how you build a car/truck.

[crunkworks]

The H2 criticism is really old- and overstated. First, plug in infrastructure does not exist. There are no plugs at gas stations, what % of homes have garages with sockets. H2 infrastructure- two options. Solid state storage in blocks sold over retail shelves. Easy. That's how gasoline is delivered. #3 local appliances that convert natural gas/water. Catalyst to improve both methods are in development. This is not about breaking laws of physics.

[JackDragu]

A plug-in infrastructure does not exist?? LOL! Look around your home. There are plugs everywhere. You are supposed to charge the electric car at home overnight. There is an electric grid in place right now. A hydrogen distribution infrastructure is nonexistent. FCs can be improved, but the production method of H2 cannot.

greyfalcon (dot) net/hydrogen4.png

It is a wasteful process.

[crunkworks]

I live in a city apt. Where would I plug in at night? Yes, we have electricity lines and sockets. But really think about it.Does a plug in infrastructure exist? Not entirely. We would HAVE to extend the electrical grid. That extension could be more costly than H2. H2 sold in solid packs over retail requires no infrastructure. H2 appliances for home production into blocks you carry into your car could be cheaper.

[crunkworks]

And H2 production/storage methods CAN be improved. Don't believe the hype. Catalysts and bio-energy systems do improve performance/conversion efficiencies. Yes, yes, I've seen that chart. First, those '%' are based on current conversion systems. Second, auto industry doesn't care about conversion. It cares about a scalable propulsion system. They don't sweat the ICE platform do they?

[1erLespoissons]

Too bad the time it will take to develop a cost effective, long lasting fuel cell, and the initialization of using solid state hydrogen storage is 20 yeas away. Millions around the world can benefit from the electric car today. Look at the Rav4 EV Doug has. Ni-MH work perfectly. There are batteries that now can be charged within 10 minutes, and have a life-span of 250,000 miles. Look for Phoenix motors.

Don't believe the hydrogen hype.

[JackDragu]

Solid state hydrogen storage sounds like a nice idea, but it cannot compete with direct Battery electric vehicles in terms of cost and efficiency. Hey, did you see those new advanced diesel cars in Europe? The Polo blue motion can obtain 70 MPG.

[liveoilfree]

Actually, no.

[liveoilfree]

LOL where would you get the $1M Hydrogen station?

[crunkworks]

let's get beyond this positioning. the problem is the combustion engine- not the fuel. electric motors are the future. powering that system is complicated- requiring FCs, batteries and capacitors. 'Bigger batteries'?? Ask the auto industry about scalability. Who talks about all battery electric? hobbyists!

[mianersiyok]

Not enough people talk about BEVs, that is because our precious car companies no longer do so. Mainstream America usually doesnt start talking about something until companies make it into a status symbol.

[crunkworks]

'stop with the 'laws of physics' argument. Catalysts and hydrogenase/bio production change the game. And common sense? First, auto industry leaders need a full set solution for electric motors- including batteries, FCs, and capacitors. Not one rules. Batteries do not make an easy cheap platform. Name me one industry leader who sees this as the long term solution.

[HAL11000]

Oil & auto man: Hey I have an Idea, lets promote cars that costs a million dollars and needs a infrastructure that will not be built in fifty years, and we will taunt the car is 'clean'. We will lie to the stupid people that the electric car is bad and wont work. People will have to wait for this hydrogen car to be perfected an the infrastructure to be built in place. During that time, people will still be driving cars that run on our oil rather than batteries.

[mianersiyok]

It depends on how big of an industry leader you mean. There are several companies making EVs and doing EV conversions. None of which are 'major' car companies. So they don't qualify as industry leaders, sorry.

[crunkworks]

Stop with the 'laws of physics' stuff. Catalysts change efficiencies. Nanoscale designs or bio (hydrogenase)are already out there that change the game. H2 infrastructure? Local production or solid state storage. Sell blocks over retail shelves. Plug in infrastructure? Talk to people who live in cities with no 'sockets' That we have 'infrastructure' for plug-ins is vastly overstated.

[HAL11000]

The laws of physics are eternal. It does not matter how efficient the fuel cell is. The production and the cost of the hydrogen will forever will be the folly of this technological blunder. Your false ideals of 'hydrogen economy' is nothing more than a overstated fantasy created by the oil companies in order to buy time for the status quo. There are roughly a trillion barrels of oil in the earth's crust, thats a over a hundred trillion dollars worth of business yet to be done.

[HAL11000]

Throw in an electric car into the equation, its near term, needs no multi trillion dollar infrastructure and costs about 75 cents to charge it.

The problem: THE OIL COMPANIES CAN'T MAKE MONEY OUT OF THE ELECTRIC CAR!

[HAL11000]

Oil & auto man: Hey I have an Idea, lets promote cars that costs a million dollars and needs a infrastructure that will not be built in fifty years, and we will taunt the car is 'clean'. We will lie to the stupid people that the electric car is bad and wont work. People will have to wait for this hydrogen car to be perfected an the infrastructure to be built in place. During that time, people will still be driving cars that run on our oil rather than batteries.

[mianersiyok]

Havent you heard, thats what solar is for! You can live off the grid and have as many outlets as you want with solar, hydro, wind, geotherm, biomass power etc. Now if you want to go into the subject of the certain people who can't afford having and type of electricity in their home, I sincerely doubt they would not be able to afford any car, no matter what it's fueled with.

[mianersiyok]

Whats with me today? lol. any type...

[JackDragu]

Technology for a Hydrogen Fuel Cell Vehicles exists or can be developed. But hydrogen infrastructure may never be established: Who wants to buy hydrogen? Electricity costs much less! Who wants to invest in a hydrogen infrastructure? Uncertain business!

[liveoilfree]

Who wants to invest in Hydrogen? Oddly enough, it's the oil refiners! The oil cracking process uses billions of pounds of hydrogen per year . . . . each refinery could be a Hydrogen fueling station!! But they want to hide that fact!!

[liveoilfree]

To duplicate the success that fuel cells have in space, you'd have to carry both Technical-grade Hydrogen and Oxygen.

[liveoilfree]

If you believe in fuel cells...then answer the question, "...Why not natural gas? It doesn't need a FC stack, it is cheaper than gasoline, and it has higher energy density than H2...and it has an infrastructure already in place..."

[mianersiyok]

Speaking of natuaral gas, I don't like the idea of those LNG tankers proposed. If one of those went up the fire clouds would go 20 miles or more inland they, I think. I don't know how accurate that is but it sounds right.

I like electricity, it's not as dangerous as other energy.

[liveoilfree]

Ironically, it's the oil companies which own the great natural gas deposits. Coal is the shallowest, the newest organic deposits; oil next, then, deepest, natural gas. LNG is inherently dangerous; but not as dangerous as GASOLINE!

[mianersiyok]

I meant "inland they say". lol.

[DrBrazil1]

Most of all hydrogen produced worldwide is made from Natural gas. Honda wants their FCX to get its hydrogen from natural gas. They say the CO2 emitted by producing the hydrogen from NG is less than half of a gas car. In fact, its no better.

greyfalcon (dot) net/electriccars2.png

Honda does not want anyone to know this.

[crunkworks]

Why do CNG/battery people support this strange 'anti-fuel cell' mentality spreading across the web. Usually under the article headline 'truth about hydrogen'. FCs are not fool sells. Electric motors will likely be powered by a combination of batteries, fuel cells and capacitors. Not one will rule them all. Battery people are trying to fight fuel cells. Cars are not iPods... And where would I 'plug in'? Show me the infrastructure for supporting the electric auto industry?

[liveoilfree]

It's just common sense (and the laws of nature) that militate against fuel cell vehicles.

Listen to the tape: after BILLIONS in research, 4,000 hours life in the stack.

The reason, we know, is HxCx in the air...which you can't filter out. And a lot of other stuff.

[mianersiyok]

The infrastructure is any power grid with hundreds of millions if not trillions of 110-240 volt outlets hooked up to it (which already is in place). All you need is one outlet to charge a car, just as you'd charge an ipod.

[mianersiyok]

People have misconceptions about cars running on batteries because they compare them to ipods and small things where size of design is a factor for carrying reasons. A car can hold many more batteries and bigger ones too! Car batteries are much more different and so are the chargers.

[JackDragu]

(Reply attempt 2)

By laws of physics: Hydrogen energy will be at least twice as expensive as electrical energy. Electricity derived from hydrogen with fuel cells will be at least four times more expensive than power from the grid. The consumer will choose the low-cost solution: Electric heaters or heat pumps rather than hydrogen for heating.

[JackDragu]

Hydrogen has to compete with its own energy source.

Therefore, it will always be an expensive fuel.

In a sustainable future, electricity will be the main energy carrier. Electric cars will be preferred to hydrogen fuel cell vehicles!

[mianersiyok]

New children's book title: The little fool sell that couldn't.