why do you add extra moves? instead of making the existing ones work?
i'd love to see you pick me up and throw me over your head. in fact - let me attack you PROPERLY with speed, power and stance and then see how all of your bunkai will fail miserably!
p.s. the second move is not a kagazuki. guy on the left is doing koshigamae the guy on the right is doing kagazuki. consistency???
Well done. It's easy to criticize when you don't have anything to show. Karate came from Jujitsu, so it is excellent that you both are thinking about bunkai that involves Jujitsu throws, locks and submissions. Much better than the silly blocking/ punching bunkai that would never work in combat. All the techniques you performed are valid and will work if done with mushin, in a flowing way. Good job and keep on going. You're on the right track.
@Shotokita Curious, what is your source (written) that states that Karate came from Jujitsu? I've never come across any reliable literature that states that. To go by hearsay has confused many a martial artist. An example of a reliable source would be Harry Cook's "Shotokan: A Precise History" It's a very good book about Shotokan's history, backed with credible sources both in Japan and Okinawa. So, how did you come to say that Karate came from Jujitsu?
@Bassai hmmm argue this.........karate now means empty hand. i do not see any weapons in there hands. or did i miss something? the same lines you move in kata are the same lines you off balance you opponent in judo. all three branches karate, aikido, and judo came from one source. which is jujutsu.
@jbabiuch Uhh, The term "Karate" wasn't used in Japan or Okinawa for that matter, until the 1920's. Before that, it was called "To-Te" or "Tou-di" by the Okinawans (who have their own dialect called Uchinanchu) and "Chin-Te" by the Japanese... Which is translated as "Chinese Hands", giving homage by its major influence, Kung-Fu. Source: "Karate-Do Kyohan" by Gichin Funakoshi - WIDELY KNOWN IN JAPAN AND AROUND THE LEGIT WORLD OF KARATE AS THE FATHER OF MODERN KARATE. Intro'd Karate to Tokyo.
@jbabiuch Ah, duh, you're subject is about origins of Karate-Do, so you must revert to what it was originally called and why it was called that. Your statement: "all three branches karate, aikido, and judo came from one source. which is jujutsu. " You should know what you are typing.
@jbabiuch Your source of info? Also, how many branches of Jujitsu do you know existed and influenced Karate, as you think it did? How many styles of jujistu influenced Judo, and how are they related to Karate? Also, how many styles of jujitsu influenced Aikido and how did they influence Karate? If you can name the styles and your legit source, then I'll eat every book in my martial arts library. Believe me, I don't go by hearsay because that's how many con artists legitimize their dojo's.
well if you would have read what i wrote it plainly say aikido not karate-do. if you want me to spoon feed it to you then so be it. "Records of Master Uyeshiba studies include, among others: jujutsu- Kito School, fencing- Yagyu School, jujutsu- Daito School, jujutsu- Shinkage School, and spear fighting."
@jbabiuch So, how does that support your theory of Karate being originated from Jujitsu? Again, Jujitsu is a Chinese-influenced JAPANESE SAMURAI ART. Karate-Do, is OKINAWAN, a separate culture. Before its subjugation by the Satsuma Clan of Kyushu, they were their own country, and still have their own language and culture. To make it simple: Chinese influence on Japanese fighting = Jujitsu. Chinese influence of Okinawan fighting = Karate-Do. Karate from Jujitsu? Wrong.
@jbabiuch Again your statement: "all three branches karate, aikido, and judo came from one source. which is jujutsu. " is what I'm refuting, right? How does your passage support Karate came from Jujitsu?
@jbabiuch And, if you didn't know, (which I suspect) the above kata mentioned, Empi, which means "Flying Swallow" was an alteration of an Okinawan kata... can you name the kata, which has nothing to do with Jujitsu? Did you know the one who altered that kata was Gichin Funakoshi, the founder of Shotokan Karate, the same Father of Modern Karate, and not a Jujitsu master?
@jbabiuch If you have the time to read, here's another book: "Three Budo Masters" by John Stevens, published by Kodansha, Copyright 1995. ISBN 4-7700-1852-5. It tells the stories of the three founders of the arts Judo(Jigoro Kano), Karate-Do (Gichin Funakoshi) and Aikido (Morihei Ueshiba). You will see in this book that all they had nothing to do with each others origins, but they did know each other AFTER they had established their styles in mainland Japan. Your rebuttal to this please?
@jbabiuch You don't make sense, are you trying to change and re-write history? What book are you referring to? If you're talking about the Chinese influence on Jujitsu, then obviously you are confusing and generalizing cultures. Jujitsu is a JAPANESE SAMURAI grappling art influenced by Chinese grappling (Tui-Na). Karate-Do is an OKINAWAN martial art influenced by Chinese Shaolin styles, among them White Crane Kung-Fu (they don't emphasize throwing and grappling on the ground).
"Motobu Chōki's third son, Chōsei Motobu (1925- ), still teaches the style that his father passed on to him... it is important to distinguish between the "Motobu-ryū" which Chōsei teaches, and "Motobu Udun Di", the unique style of the Motobu family, which bears a resemblance to aikijutsu." Also, "According to Sōken (ShorinRyu) the techniques of karate and kobujutsu he learned from Nabe Matsumura were the same ones practiced by his samurai ancestors hundreds of years ago."
@Shotokita Next, what style of Jujitsu influenced Shorin-Ryu, (the forerunner of Shotokan), again if you can name me the source of info and I will be silenced. Issue #3: You and me know that Choki Motobu based his theories on Naihanchi (Tekki) kata. If your source of (Aikido influence) is correct, why is does the linear techniques of Choki Motobu conflict with Aikido's circular, resistant based techniques?. Also, what publication are you taking the above reference from?
@Shotokita #4, could you tell me why the Okinawan masters never paid homage to Satsuma Samurai teachers of Jujitsu, if there are any? #5, (The most important question): Why would Funakoshi himself state this in his book. "Karate-Do Nyumon": Funakoshi himself states in his book: Karate-Do Nyumon: "There are also a great many people who try to blend a little knowledge of jujutsu with a tiny bit of Karate study. The result is strange and unworthy of being called either."
@Shotokita My latest rebuttal to:"Many became Samurai, including the masters. They practiced Samurai arts and learned from them as well as from the Chinese. " You know I don't go by hearsay. What reference do you base this statement on? Again, I point to my experience as an Arnis practitioner that just because another culture conquered another, doesn't mean that the martial traditions are influenced. Sources?
Last: Why do the Oknawan and Japanese Masters do not pay homage to Satsuma Jujitsu?
The history of Jujitsu can be traced back over 2,500 years. Prior to the formalization of Karate by Funakoshi in the early 1900s, all samurai and martial artists trained in various styles of Jujitsu. Itosu and Azato, Funakoshi's masters, were both masters of jujitsu (Okinawan style empty handed fighting) and the study of kata always involved jujitsu tech. I study both as they compliment each other. Sport karate mostly ignores those important elements of jujitsu, which is unfortunate.
@Shotokita 2,500 years? Are there any written records of OKINAWAN HISTORY THAT DATES BACK 2,500 YEARS? What text are you getting this from? By hearsay? What are your sources for this? What research method did you use? The current year is 2009. Karate was not intro'd in Japan 'till 1921. By the way, block-punch/kick method works well for Muay Thai, Savate and good-old kick boxing. It is also a part of today's MMA training, so it is not defective strategy at all, just lacking.
@Shotokita What happened to my original rebuttal? Anyways, there are no historical records or texts that back up your statement that Okinawans called their art Jujitsu. They called it "Chinese hand" or "Tou-di" or "To-te" My source: "Karate-Do Kyohan" by Gichin Funakoshi. Also, in the same book he clearly states that "Karate-Do is not a form of Jujitsu or Judo". Though kata may have grappling techniques, it doesn't mean its jujitsu. Do the Chinese call it that? NO. NEVER.
Yes, all of the locks and sub. on MYB can be found in the kata, as this sensei explains. Many of the kata come from Chinese masters (ex. Kushanku, Chinto) as the Okinawan m.a. simply memorized those fighting tech. in order to study and practice them. Every kata is a complete fighting system. Jujitsu is simply the samurai system(s) that used strikes, locks, submissions, etc. which came primarily from Chinese influences. All shared their tech. Kata contains these tech. in the Okuden waza. Oss!
@Shotokita I agree on some points, but disagree on some points. You had pointed out that Jujitsu is a Japanese Samurai art, influenced by Chinese grappling (Tui-Na). I must point out that Okinawa was its own country and still has its own language and culture, similar but separate from the Japanese Samurai ethos. Karate is Chinese influenced, but to call it Jujitsu (as the Chinese wouldn't call their art that) would be a confusion. Even today, there is a difference beween Jap and Oki Karate.
Hi Bassai. You are ignoring the tremendous influence of the Satsuma samurai on the Okinawans under the Shimazu government. Funakoshi attributes To-de to the Shimazu weapon's ban, and so Chinese Kenpo, which is what Jujitsu basically was, seriously influenced the Okinawans. Later, Funakoshi and the other masters of that time codified the various kata into the "way" of karate. But they eliminated the "Okuden waza" for the masses and taught them in secret (to students like Kano and Ueshiba.)
@Shotokita I think our conflict is based on how we talk about terms of Jujitsu as well as our sources of information. As we both agree, that Jujitsu is a Japanese samurai art, and not a generalized Chinese one. Tui-Na, the Chinese form that influenced Japanese Jujitsu is not a Samurai art, right? Chinese Kenpo is not Japanese Jujitsu and not a samurai art, right? The Shimazu took over Okinawa, banned weapons, but did minimally influence Chinese Kenpo.
@Shotokita Ran out of space. As we both go back further, we know that there are many styles of Kung-Fu that influenced Karate, which had nothing to do with the Satsuma Clan. Example, Fukkien White Crane as the original Chinese Kenpo style Kanrio Higaonna studied in China (had nothing to do with samurai jujitsu) when he developed Naha-Te. Among the Shotokan kata influenced by this: Hangetsu (Seisan). The other influence: Shorin style (Shaolin) which is supposedly derived straight from Shaolin
@Shotokita (continuing Shaolin) which would definitely not have anything to do with the Satsuma Clan. Shorin-Ryu, the other Okinawan style, evolved from Shuri-Te. The Shotokan influence from Shorin-Ryu: Tekki Katas (Naihanchi in Okinawan or Naifunchin in Chinese). Again, I am not rebutting your implication that grappling has no place in Karate, but explaining that to call Chinese Kenpo and Japanese Jujitsu the same thing would be a confusion. (Cont'd).
@Shotokita As I said, the influence of the Satsuma Clan's on the Okinawans is minimal, but there are a few of them who interchanged martial ideas with the Okinawan upper gentry. E.G.: Anko Azato, Funakoshi's teacher, who had an official position, went to Kyushu and practiced there. However to say that he came back to Okinawa and introduced Chinese Kempo, or change the system wouldn't make sense. Also, for the Satsuma to ban weapons but teach Jujitsu to Okinawans would not make sense either.
Bassai. You are missing the point. The Moors conquered the Spanish and for 800 years taught their adversaries the horsemanship the Spanish used to kick the Moors out of Spain with. Likewise, all influences are responsible for the development of a martial art. The Chinese influence on Jujitsu and the samurai influence on Karate are the same. Funakoshi wore a topknot in the samurai fashion until he had to cut it off. He considered himself, and his ancestors, samurai. The rest is semantics.
@Shotokita Even if Funakoshi was an Okinawan samurai, to generalize any empty hand technique, Chinese or Japanese, as Jujitsu would be a confusion. That's why the name was originally written as "Chinese" hand by all the Okinawan masters of the art themselves. The only time the Okinawan masters (Funakoshi, Mabuni, Hanashiro Chomo, Motobu, etc.) called it Karate-Do as "Empty Hand" was post 1920's, and had nothing or little to do with jujitsu. Funakoshi's first book: "To-Te jitsu".
Last, incorrect. Chinese Hand meant the techs. originated in China, as with Jujitsu. Fun. changed to Empty Hand after 1920s (correct.) The whole point was that the karateka in the video were also correct to use various tech. in their search for the Okuden Waza no longer taught. They are searching correctly. Karate is based on kata and kata needs to be explored the way they are doing it. We all find our systems in kata by studying them in depth. Jujitsu tech. are plentiful in kata. Merry X-mas
@Shotokita I don't think what the guys in the video were necessarily wrong. I was just contesting your statement that Karate came from, or was greatly influenced by Jujitsu. Also, if you have chance to ask Kanazawa sensei about the origins of Karate-Do, he will tell you that its origins come from China, not Jujitsu. He may even tell you that it can be even traced beyond China, as he had written in an article way back when.
@Shotokita Lastly, I'd like to repeat what I had mentioned: the danger of saying that the art came straight from Jujitsu misleads the layman to think that Karate-Do is purely Japanese (which is not). I find your analogy of the Moors-Spanish conflict more of a tragedy, because many of the people who had helped the advancement of their military art are forgotten in that process. If we do the same thing with Karate, much of its rich non-Japanese history gets swallowed up by false hearsay.
@Shotokita You might have just breezed through my extensive posts (and I don't blame you), I am not going in circles. I am contesting your statement that Karate-Do came from Jujitsu. I have presented you written facts that contradict this statement. To generalize all Okinawan samurai and Japanese samurai as the same as well as they all are masters of jujitsu would be incorrect. That's like calling Shotokan and Goju-Ryu as the same, just because their origins are from Okinawa.
@Shotokita Oh, before I go and return to see your rebuttal, I would like you to know that I am a U.S. born Filipino (Queens, NY). My family went back to the Philippines when I was 7, and I returned to finish my last year of high school. While I was in the Philippines, I started in Karate (my teacher was JKA Mikami sensei's student in the 60's), I also studied our native art, Arnis / Escrima / Kali.
@Shotokita Though the Philippines was subjugated by Spain in 1600's (they ruled until the late 1800's), the only influence they had on the art was the language (terms like espada y daga, escrimador, doble baston, etc.). None of the techniques in the art were influenced by Spanish fencing, horsemanship or the lance. So just because the Satsuma clan conquered Okinawa, does not mean that their immediate subjects (Okinawan samurai and peasants) were influenced by Japanese jujitsu.
@Shotokita All these statements I can back-up with written, researched material. If you'd like me to provide a bibliography, I'd be happy to. I would like to know which part of time did Kano and Ueshiba travel to Okinawa to learn "Okuden Waza" and which book you are taking this from. I have the book "Three Budo Masters" which illustrates the stories of Kano, FUnakoshi and Ueshiba. There is no mention of any "secret teaching". What's your researched source?
Hi Bassai. They studied with Funakoshi in Tokyo, not Okinawa. In his book Karate-do My Way of Life, he writes about cutting off his own topknot. His father cried, "What have you done to yourself? You the son of a samurai!" Funakoshi considered himself a samurai, and both Azato and Itosu practiced Jujitsu along with what became Karate. "Okuden Waza" is very well known. Kanazawa, Nakayama, etc. learned it from Funakoshi directly. They were secret studies, so masters didn't write about them.
@Shotokita I had known that the three (Kano, Funakoshi and Ueshiba) had visited each other time to time, but that was after Okinawan Karate and kata was created. If they were exchanging ideas, you could say the influence of Kano and Ueshiba (Japanese Jujitsu) was added a period after Karate was into'd to Japanese mainland. Nakayama learned bunkai from Funakoshi, but according to Kanazawa, when he entered Takushoku Univ. Funakoshi was already too old and rarely taught (srce: Kanazawa, 10th Dan)
@Shotokita (cont'd from Kanazawa) According to Kanazawa, he learned most of his lessons from sempai like NIshiyama and Nakayama. Also, Funakoshi himself wrote that Karate-Do is not the same and shouldn't be confused as Jujitsu (srce: Karate-Do Kyohan). Another piece of evidence lies in in the existence of traditional Karate Kata. This method of teaching had been handed down from Shaolin methods (learn a kata or Quan first, applications later).
@Shotokita (cont'd from Quan) Though some kata cannot be traced to its origins, some provide some clues. Like, Kanku-Dai (Kusanku / Kosokun) can be traced back to a Chinese military attache who was shipwrecked on Okinawa. Hangetsu, a derivative of an Okinawan kata Seisan, can be traced straight back to its Fukkien White Crane roots. If you think kata has its origins in Jujitsu (Satsuma?) which kata, and its methods of practice for that matter, are existent in Japanese Jujitsu system?
@Shotokita (cont'd from jujitsu kata) If you can name a kata practiced both by Jujitsu (Satsuma?) and Karate-Do, I'll check your sources and correct my notes.
Correct me if I am wrong, but is you're point that Karate came straight from Jujitsu? Aren't you implying that Karate was originally a Japanese samurai grappling art when you say that? That's the point I'm contesting.
@Shotokita (cont'd point) Because the danger of saying that the art came straight from Jujitsu misleads the layman to think that Karate-Do is purely Japanese (which is not). All the Asian masters (Okinawan or Japanese) who have written about the history of the art acknowledge that its origins come from China (not Satsuma Jujitsu) so as to distinguish itself as an art not of Japanese origins. If you have a book that says otherwise, I will view my own sources in a different light.
@Shotokita (cont'd danger of confusion) May I also point out that the practice of Karate-Do among Okinawans started before the Satsuma invasion (1609). Okinawan civil wars were ended when King Shoshin (1477-1526) took control and prohibited the use and stockpiling of weapons in 1507 (srce: Ancient Okinawan Martial Arts Koryu Uchinadi 2, by Patrick McCarthy, Tuttle 1999). According to the same source, landowners were forced to learn alternative means of protecting themselves.
It's Ok Bassai. It is good that you read a lot, but you need to connect the dots better. I never said karate kata comes from Jujitsu. Jujitsu kata are very different, although they are inside the karate kata throughout. They are often Okuden Waza. Yes, both have their origins from China, and Jujitsu, being much older was a great influence on karate, through the samurai and prior. I am in SKIF. Kanazawa learned from Funakoshi in the 1950s. Fun. died in 1958 at 90 and was very sharp.
@Shotokita Kanazawa writes in his book, Kanazawa, 10th dan, that despite his age, he was sharp. However, he also states that Funakoshi rarely taught and sometimes was carried around by piggyback. He also writes in his book that he learned mostly from his sempai. BTW, I am a student of Mori Masataka sensei, JKA, NY. Mori sensei was Kanazawa's sempai in Takudai.
Bassai. You jumble your information. Kanazawa did learn from Fun. He didn't need to spar him to learn from him. Jujitsu's origins were from China and elsewhere. It is much older than karate. Okinawans learned from both Chinese systems and Japanese Jujitsu (samurai and prior) as well. These are influences and they are present in the kata. Your arguments are circular. You are saying the same thing I am but don't see the connections. Best to Mori sensei. Keep studying. Oss!
@Shotokita I'm sorry, but I don't think I am jumbling info. As I had stated, Kanazawa himself writes in his book about Funakoshi and how much he learned from him. It would be unfair to the Chinese to call their system Jujitsu, because they are simply not Japanese and the actual Chinese influence on Karate is not the same influence on Jujitsu. Example Fukkien White Crane (look up on You Tube documentary) bears no resemblance to Japanese Jujitsu whatsoever.
@Shotokita No disrespect, but I think you want to generalize information based on your assumptions and lack of knowledge of actual historical fact. Funakoshi himself states in his book: Karate-Do Nyumon: "There are also a great many people who try to blend a little knowledge of jujutsu with a tiny bit of Karate study. The result is strange and unworthy of being called either." I am not saying the people in the vid are wrong. With the BJJ explosion came research for Karate grappling.
@Shotokita Hence, I tried my own research to find, original Karate grappling techniques and its relationship with Japanese Jujitsu. This led me to the study of Karate's history (hence I compiled a huge library on Karate-Do history, Judo, Jujitsu, Aikido and Kung-Fu) This is turn, led me to realize that there is hardly any factual, written proof that connects original Okinawan Karate-Do to Japanese Jujitsu. All I could find are traceable connections to the Southern Chinese forms.
@Shotokita I even joined a Matsubayashi Shorin-Ryu dojo for 8 months, while still studying with JKA (w/out Mori sensei's knowledge) just to learn the original bunkai of the Heian katas (Pinan). There I learned about Omote bunkai and Ura bunkai. The teacher himself stated that the "Okuden Waza" you talk about isn't much different than Ura bunkai, since Ura bunkai is open to definition. There were grappling techniques, but they were always preceded by a strike.
@Shotokita The grappling techniques themselves didn't require you to do extensive ground work either. They were very simple stand-up techniques, which either used a joint lock (kansetsu waza) or throw (nage waza). Choke holds were introduced in more advanced kata. I quit because I couldn't afford both dojos at the same time.
@Shotokita I later left the dojo for two years to try out Kyokushin to experience full contact fighting and body conditioning, as well as close-distance technique (hook punches, low kicks, uppercuts and elbows in Jiyu Kumite). While with the Kyokushin, I missed the beauty of Shotokan kata, so I wanted to do more research on its bunnkai. After reaching 2nd Kyu, I moved on to BJJ with my brother's encouragement, to find a link with Shotokan bunkai. Sad to say, there is very little, if none.
@Shotokita Going back to the original argument: Did Karate come from Japanese Jujitsu? I would have to say, it was influenced later by Jujitsu (post 1920's) but to say its origins are from Jujitsu would be false. Again, in my extensive research to find original Okinawan grappling techniques in Karate (which exists), I find no historical, written fact / proof of the Japanese Jujitsu influence on it. No Japanese Karate master mentions this, neither does Kano or Ueshiba mention this either.
@Shotokita I mean no disrespect, as a fellow practitioner of legit Shotokan Karate-Do, but I have been backing up my arguments with well researched material written by different authors. Despite their different sources, their conclusions of the subject mentioned are the same. To generalize the facts of history and make assumptions would be like calling Shotokan and Goju-Ryu the same thing... which you would agree is FALSE. Just because they come from Okinawa, doesn't make them the same art.
@Shotokita In that respect, just because the Satsuma samurai conquered the Okinawan warriors does not mean that their Jujitsu had a great influence on Okinawan Karate. Again, there is no historical record that mentions this assumption, and no Okinawan or Japanese master pays homage to the said clan. They all point to China as its source. Again, just because Itosu and Azato were Okinawan samurai, they were not masters of Jujitsu. Okinawan samurai are not the same as mainland Japanese samurai
@Shotokita Okinawan samurai had their own martial traditions, because they were a different culture. If you want me to back this statement up, we can go further. I have no problem with that as I am a history major in college. Again, Funakoshi himself distinguishes that Karate is not jujitsu, neither is its origins connected to it. PLease prove me wrong with written facts / books. So far I have yet to be corrected. Again, no disrespect. I love truthful, respectable debates on history.
@Shotokita (cont'd. King Shoshin) During this period, Okinawa enjoyed favorable relations with China. According to martial arts historian P. McCarthy: "...every facet of Okinawa's culture was deeply influenced by the more sophisticated Chinese culture. Up to and beyond the Meiji Restoration (1868), various kinds of quanfa had found its way across to this tiny archipelago, where the self-defense principles of Chinese quanfa enables its users to subjugate an adversary without rendering..."
Bassai. I have a Ph.D. in Literature and understand how to extrapolate information. I have black belts in Karate, Jujitsu, Iaido and Kobudo, lived in Jap. for 4 years. I began training in 1970 and even studied the Chinese Goju system. The samurai overpowered Okinawa, influenced the natives. Many became Samurai, including the masters. They practiced Samurai arts and learned from them as well as from the Chinese. I've read all the books as well. You are missing the larger historical point. Oss!
@Shotokita Good. I am glad that I am not facing another self-glorified heretic, but an intelligent one. You know that Goju System has no resemblance to Japanese jujitsu. You also know that jujitsu itself has hundreds of styles. What influence of what school of Jujitsu influenced Goju-Ryu? The answer would silence me, especially if you could name a source of info. @Shotokita Good. I am glad that I am not facing another self-glorified heretic, but an intelligent one.
@Shotokita Actually, this is the last question (I apologize) Despite your evidence, is it correct to say that Karate-Do came from Jujitsu? Remember, as a PHD in Literature, you know the dangers of saying it simply came from Jujitsu, since Kata, the soul of Karate-Do practice, would be a lie (false truth). Since we both agree, Karate would not be the art itself, without the practice of Kata, a tradition passed down from Chinese martial arts.
@Shotokita May I also point out, that Chosei never came across Ueshiba. So to say just because the resemblance between his style and Aikido could be coincidental, since man and his movements could be analyzed logically. Also, we both agree that Jujitsu systems came form China, henceforth a non-samurai tradition. There are many circular movements in schools of Kung-Fu. You must point out that Chosei's movem,ents come straight from Satsuma jujitsu, which non of the Okinawans pay homage to.
@Shotokita I finally found the source of your passage in wikipedia. It only suggests the resemblance to aikijutsu, which would be impossible to say is the source of Karate-Do since the time frame and geography of the development of both arts are separate . Another problem with using wikipedia as a source is because anyone can write their opinion on any article. Again, I'm not saying there is no grappling in Karate-Do, I'm refuting your your statement that Karate came from Jujitsu.
@Shotokita (cont'd from P. McCarthy)"...serious injury unless absolutely necessary." So to say that Japanese Jujitsu's influence on the Origins of Karate would be minimal, is correct. May I also point out that the Okinawans had their culture and language separate from the Japanese.
Bassai. You seem to have a real problem with the Okinawans being influenced by Japanese. Are New Mexicans not influenced by Mexico? Kanazawa, Funakoshi, Miyagi, Otsuka, etc. all mention the samurai and their influence. Jujitsu is a samurai system influenced by the Chinese. Karate is a mix of Chinese and indig., infl. by samurai for over 200 years. They are different arts, but the blending is there, and in kata. It's only natural. However, you are entitled to believe what you want. Oss!
@Shotokita I have no problem with the Japanese influence on Okinawans whatsoever. Shotokan, Goju-kai, Wado-Ryu, Shindo Jinen-Ryu are among the styles which Okinawans call "Japanized" versions of Karate. I do not refute the influence of Jujitsu on Karate today. But I was only contending your statement that Karate came from Jujitsu. I tried to find the connection in Karate history, but could not find sufficient evidence. In history, Japanese Jujitsu's major influence happened post 1920's. Oss
Bassai. The styles you mention are what I'm talking about. They did not exist alone prior to the 1920s. They were and are influenced by the samurai, as you just stated (Japanized,) which is why the masters who founded them claim direct warrior lineage to the samurai - and proudly so. And the karate of Itosu, Azato etc. was also influenced by samurai as well as the Chinese. You should read my good friend Iain Abernethy's work. I think you would enjoy it and see the connection to kata. Oss!
Bassai, FYI, spoke to my mate Iain Abernethy who said, "Some of the styles of (early) karate were heavily influenced by Jap. Jujitsu, others were not, and were mostly Chinese influenced. However, grappling is present throughout kata, mostly simple s.d. tech. though is still somewhat controversial." I trust his scholarship like no other. Kata bunkai has been his quest for many, many years. Read his, "Bunkai-Jutsu." It is ground breaking. Oss! Good luck...
@Shotokita Yes, I understand your point. As I had said, Karate did not come from exclusively Jujitsu, but a combination of martial arts (as we both now agree). But what I'd like to also point out hat Karate-Do, as practiced by the Okinawan samurai art, was considered the "jujitsu" of said masters. You must understand that to the Japanese and Chinese (Asian cultures, really) that it is important to pay homage to their teachers (martial art or not) for respect and authenticity of their school.
@Shotokita None of the original Okinawan masters mention that they learned "jujitsu" as you understand it (Japanese), from any known jujitsu teacher. What they do mention is where they had learned their Karate-Do, which in itself has inclusive grappling techniques. Simply saying, Itosu and Azato were both known as Karate-Do masters, not jujitsu masters, because Karate-Do was the Okinawan "jujitsu" or method of unarmed combat.
@Shotokita It was never written as, Itosu or Azato learned Karate-Do from so and so, and jujitsu from so and so. Okinawan Karate-Do was and is a complete fighting system with its own grappling techniques (See Pat McCarthy's, a well known Karate-Do historian, work and research into Koryu Uchnadi or Okinawan fighting systems). Funakoshi himself distinguishes Karate-Do as a separate art from Japanese Jujitsu.
Bassai. I never said that they were practicing pure Jujitsu. All I said was that both Chinese and Jap. grappling arts had an influence on karate, which did not even exist as "karate" until the 1920s. Iain said so as well, as did the masters. And today, these influences are even stronger and will continue to be just as karate influences other m. arts as well. With this I leave the discussion and wish you well in your studies, etc. You are on a good path. Oss!
@Shotokita That's why I refuted your statement in the beginning. Today, their are many practitioners trying to do research into grappling systems (me included, in BJJ) and seeing if they can fit that into their kata's ura bunkai, which I have no problem with whatsoever. As long as the researcher knows how to grapple effectively. The sad thing is that many try to incorporate grappling moves they read in books or see in videos, not knowing how to practice it and lacking grappling basics.
@Bassai Pretty much, because learning a random throw or joint lock is like learning one random punch. It's all the inbetween (the transitions, the sense keeping your weight down, kazushi, how one technique sets up another, etc. etc.) that matters, whether you're doing standup or groundwork.
@maofas At least you are one of the few who understand the right way of training on how to grapple effectively. Unlike these people above who are just applying token grappling moves on "rag doll" opponents. If they only knew how to train properly, they wouldn't be so keen on throwing random grappling techniques in a kata. As you said, an appropriate grappling move must be used in the appropriate time, as the practice of grappling itself requires a partner who is resisting the technique.
@Bassai Modern Shotokan Karate-do falls into a grey area of combat, where they study a few techniques occasionally that are generic and common like wrist locks and throws. This is not "Self-defense" but a false sense of self-defense. I learned less functional combat in 8 years of studying Shotokan Karate-do then the amount of functional combat techniques I learned from studying one flow drill(in particular: ne-waza) from Koryu Uchinadi Kenpo Jutsu.
@Gwisss The correct frase is Oyo, not Bunkai.-- people should consider taking the time to learn about the Japanese language before they start using the wrong phrase. before you know it the whole world will used the wrong phrase.
@NitenRyu559 Was this comment suppose to be directed at me?
Bunkai means "analysis" or "breakdown" of a Kata. And Bunkai Oyo relates to a breakdown or analysis of a kata that is different then the standard(that which was set by the association in which you practice). I'm not too sure how this relates to my comment posted 9 months ago. The current STANDARD of bunkai in the largest Karate association is not a functional curriculum for teaching self-defense.
@Shotokita Example: If a black belt in Shotokan, after studying the grappling moves in Heian Shodan all the way to the the big five: Kanku-Dai, Bassai Dai, Empi, Jion and Jitte, most probably lose in a grappling match against a shodan in judo or BJJ, simply because the time spent by grapplers on these basic techniques is about 80% of their training. I do suggest that the Shotokan practitioner spend a year or two of simply grappling, so as to understand and master the art.
@Shotokita A great example is Lyoto Machida. He wouldn't have done so well in his MMA career if he did not train in BJJ, Judo and Sumo separately from his Shotokan practice. He also had the fortune of having time to practice the arts at the same time, as many of only have ten to fifteen hours of practice a week.
I am well aware kataguruma is not a karate move... That part was copied from an old video made in okinawa by an 8th dan since I thought it was a very good explanation. You can always critisize them...
Furthermore I appreciate criticism especially since this is an old video but not insult. Take it as it is or say something constructive and on top of all try not to go around seeking out wherever you can put your judgement, it will make your life a lot more enjoyable.
1. Making up applications isn't easy... I only started making up my own applications in earnest when I first got shodan, that he's doing them at all is just showing that he's got the right spirit of experimentation.
2. He's obviously thinking about the moves, but then he goes on to do some finishing move that's very far removed from anything in the kata. It's not really a bunkai if the moves aren't in the kata... it's great to elaborate on what a move is for, but it's good to limit to the kata.
@BrianNeltner Extra finishing moves are just fine. I look at it as pushing the pause button on the kata while you extemporaneously beat him to a bloody pulp.
Not really to do it well you would have to get a grip to torsion les wrist and then give a big blow in the knees to basculat the attackers body, to dangerous to show properly for our level.
Oh, forgot to mention. The first application relies solely on the attacker doing a somersault of some kind. Look how little effort the defender applies. Pure Hollywood.
Thanks for the work! I like the Iain Abernethy Bunkai-jutsu series, but he hasn't published anything on this kata, so I really appreciate the effort you put in. Some of the techniques look pretty workable! And I'm not very good at reverse-engineering the kata, so I can use all the help I can get.
very nice idea of presenting the moves from different angles. I also like the omote continuation of the moves. You should continue in that direction, try to validate your ideas with some senior traditional shotakan sensei. It is a very good start, though. Congratulations & I hope to see more of you 2!
Some pretty unconventional bunkai there, but it's obvious you put heaps of work into making the video, so well done - let's see some more, but without the metal soundtrack.
Well the tune was kind of a fast decide didn't really think about it and well musik isn't what I put this video here for so... And for the impressive part well I'll be glade to rate some of youre videos
GOOD SONG !! ORRIBLE BUNKAI
tazZANSHIN 1 year ago
ORRIBLE!!
tazZANSHIN 1 year ago
Interesting applications and i happen to like the music too...
StuartBurns69 1 year ago
Good bunkai a great kata too.
slippyb1 1 year ago
awesome guys, lovely to watch, very strong!
veggieshredder 1 year ago
Fuck the music!
Khelarald 2 years ago
Really nice bunkai!
johnm543 2 years ago
Why do people insist on putting these things to distracting and inappropriate music?
recurse 2 years ago
Thank you, lady and gentleman! You obviously put a lot of thought and effort into this demonstration, and it clearly shows it.
I haven't decided which bunkai I buy into for empi, but several of yours seem plausible.
So thank you for your contribution to the ongoing bunkai discussion that will, ultimately, make us all better karate-ka.
oldusedking 2 years ago
omg wtf is this?
why do you add extra moves? instead of making the existing ones work?
i'd love to see you pick me up and throw me over your head. in fact - let me attack you PROPERLY with speed, power and stance and then see how all of your bunkai will fail miserably!
p.s. the second move is not a kagazuki. guy on the left is doing koshigamae the guy on the right is doing kagazuki. consistency???
STUDY the moves and MAKE THEM WORK
djmoscow 2 years ago
Well done. It's easy to criticize when you don't have anything to show. Karate came from Jujitsu, so it is excellent that you both are thinking about bunkai that involves Jujitsu throws, locks and submissions. Much better than the silly blocking/ punching bunkai that would never work in combat. All the techniques you performed are valid and will work if done with mushin, in a flowing way. Good job and keep on going. You're on the right track.
Shotokita 2 years ago
@Shotokita Curious, what is your source (written) that states that Karate came from Jujitsu? I've never come across any reliable literature that states that. To go by hearsay has confused many a martial artist. An example of a reliable source would be Harry Cook's "Shotokan: A Precise History" It's a very good book about Shotokan's history, backed with credible sources both in Japan and Okinawa. So, how did you come to say that Karate came from Jujitsu?
Bassai 2 years ago
@Bassai hmmm argue this.........karate now means empty hand. i do not see any weapons in there hands. or did i miss something? the same lines you move in kata are the same lines you off balance you opponent in judo. all three branches karate, aikido, and judo came from one source. which is jujutsu.
jbabiuch 2 years ago
@jbabiuch Uhh, The term "Karate" wasn't used in Japan or Okinawa for that matter, until the 1920's. Before that, it was called "To-Te" or "Tou-di" by the Okinawans (who have their own dialect called Uchinanchu) and "Chin-Te" by the Japanese... Which is translated as "Chinese Hands", giving homage by its major influence, Kung-Fu. Source: "Karate-Do Kyohan" by Gichin Funakoshi - WIDELY KNOWN IN JAPAN AND AROUND THE LEGIT WORLD OF KARATE AS THE FATHER OF MODERN KARATE. Intro'd Karate to Tokyo.
Bassai 2 years ago
ah duh. which is why i said said it NOW means empty hand. you should read what ppl type.
jbabiuch 2 years ago
@jbabiuch Ah, duh, you're subject is about origins of Karate-Do, so you must revert to what it was originally called and why it was called that. Your statement: "all three branches karate, aikido, and judo came from one source. which is jujutsu. " You should know what you are typing.
Bassai 2 years ago
@jbabiuch Your source of info? Also, how many branches of Jujitsu do you know existed and influenced Karate, as you think it did? How many styles of jujistu influenced Judo, and how are they related to Karate? Also, how many styles of jujitsu influenced Aikido and how did they influence Karate? If you can name the styles and your legit source, then I'll eat every book in my martial arts library. Believe me, I don't go by hearsay because that's how many con artists legitimize their dojo's.
Bassai 2 years ago
"Aikido and The dynamic Sphere" Chapter 2 page 29
jbabiuch 2 years ago
@jbabiuch What does the passage say exactly, about the origins of Karate-Do and its relation to jujitsu?
Bassai 2 years ago
well if you would have read what i wrote it plainly say aikido not karate-do. if you want me to spoon feed it to you then so be it. "Records of Master Uyeshiba studies include, among others: jujutsu- Kito School, fencing- Yagyu School, jujutsu- Daito School, jujutsu- Shinkage School, and spear fighting."
jbabiuch 2 years ago
@jbabiuch So, how does that support your theory of Karate being originated from Jujitsu? Again, Jujitsu is a Chinese-influenced JAPANESE SAMURAI ART. Karate-Do, is OKINAWAN, a separate culture. Before its subjugation by the Satsuma Clan of Kyushu, they were their own country, and still have their own language and culture. To make it simple: Chinese influence on Japanese fighting = Jujitsu. Chinese influence of Okinawan fighting = Karate-Do. Karate from Jujitsu? Wrong.
Bassai 2 years ago
@jbabiuch Again your statement: "all three branches karate, aikido, and judo came from one source. which is jujutsu. " is what I'm refuting, right? How does your passage support Karate came from Jujitsu?
Bassai 2 years ago
@jbabiuch And, if you didn't know, (which I suspect) the above kata mentioned, Empi, which means "Flying Swallow" was an alteration of an Okinawan kata... can you name the kata, which has nothing to do with Jujitsu? Did you know the one who altered that kata was Gichin Funakoshi, the founder of Shotokan Karate, the same Father of Modern Karate, and not a Jujitsu master?
Bassai 2 years ago
lol you are too funny. love the ignorance.
jbabiuch 2 years ago
@jbabiuch Yah, your funny.
Bassai 2 years ago
@jbabiuch If you have the time to read, here's another book: "Three Budo Masters" by John Stevens, published by Kodansha, Copyright 1995. ISBN 4-7700-1852-5. It tells the stories of the three founders of the arts Judo(Jigoro Kano), Karate-Do (Gichin Funakoshi) and Aikido (Morihei Ueshiba). You will see in this book that all they had nothing to do with each others origins, but they did know each other AFTER they had established their styles in mainland Japan. Your rebuttal to this please?
Bassai 2 years ago
it just kills me that you still base everything on the turn of the last century.
jbabiuch 2 years ago
@jbabiuch Because Karate wasn't introduced to mainland Japan until the turn of the century. Hahahaha. Love your uneducated approach.
Bassai 2 years ago
i second that. you should read more pre 19th centrury martial arts. then you wont be so uneducated.
jbabiuch 2 years ago
@jbabiuch You don't make sense, are you trying to change and re-write history? What book are you referring to? If you're talking about the Chinese influence on Jujitsu, then obviously you are confusing and generalizing cultures. Jujitsu is a JAPANESE SAMURAI grappling art influenced by Chinese grappling (Tui-Na). Karate-Do is an OKINAWAN martial art influenced by Chinese Shaolin styles, among them White Crane Kung-Fu (they don't emphasize throwing and grappling on the ground).
Bassai 2 years ago
"Motobu Chōki's third son, Chōsei Motobu (1925- ), still teaches the style that his father passed on to him... it is important to distinguish between the "Motobu-ryū" which Chōsei teaches, and "Motobu Udun Di", the unique style of the Motobu family, which bears a resemblance to aikijutsu." Also, "According to Sōken (ShorinRyu) the techniques of karate and kobujutsu he learned from Nabe Matsumura were the same ones practiced by his samurai ancestors hundreds of years ago."
Shotokita 2 years ago
@Shotokita Next, what style of Jujitsu influenced Shorin-Ryu, (the forerunner of Shotokan), again if you can name me the source of info and I will be silenced. Issue #3: You and me know that Choki Motobu based his theories on Naihanchi (Tekki) kata. If your source of (Aikido influence) is correct, why is does the linear techniques of Choki Motobu conflict with Aikido's circular, resistant based techniques?. Also, what publication are you taking the above reference from?
Bassai 2 years ago
@Shotokita #4, could you tell me why the Okinawan masters never paid homage to Satsuma Samurai teachers of Jujitsu, if there are any? #5, (The most important question): Why would Funakoshi himself state this in his book. "Karate-Do Nyumon": Funakoshi himself states in his book: Karate-Do Nyumon: "There are also a great many people who try to blend a little knowledge of jujutsu with a tiny bit of Karate study. The result is strange and unworthy of being called either."
Bassai 2 years ago
@Shotokita My latest rebuttal to:"Many became Samurai, including the masters. They practiced Samurai arts and learned from them as well as from the Chinese. " You know I don't go by hearsay. What reference do you base this statement on? Again, I point to my experience as an Arnis practitioner that just because another culture conquered another, doesn't mean that the martial traditions are influenced. Sources?
Last: Why do the Oknawan and Japanese Masters do not pay homage to Satsuma Jujitsu?
Bassai 2 years ago
karate came from Jujitsu???!!!
Where did u take this??
juliocesarcoliveira 2 years ago
The history of Jujitsu can be traced back over 2,500 years. Prior to the formalization of Karate by Funakoshi in the early 1900s, all samurai and martial artists trained in various styles of Jujitsu. Itosu and Azato, Funakoshi's masters, were both masters of jujitsu (Okinawan style empty handed fighting) and the study of kata always involved jujitsu tech. I study both as they compliment each other. Sport karate mostly ignores those important elements of jujitsu, which is unfortunate.
Shotokita 2 years ago
@Shotokita 2,500 years? Are there any written records of OKINAWAN HISTORY THAT DATES BACK 2,500 YEARS? What text are you getting this from? By hearsay? What are your sources for this? What research method did you use? The current year is 2009. Karate was not intro'd in Japan 'till 1921. By the way, block-punch/kick method works well for Muay Thai, Savate and good-old kick boxing. It is also a part of today's MMA training, so it is not defective strategy at all, just lacking.
Bassai 2 years ago
@Shotokita What happened to my original rebuttal? Anyways, there are no historical records or texts that back up your statement that Okinawans called their art Jujitsu. They called it "Chinese hand" or "Tou-di" or "To-te" My source: "Karate-Do Kyohan" by Gichin Funakoshi. Also, in the same book he clearly states that "Karate-Do is not a form of Jujitsu or Judo". Though kata may have grappling techniques, it doesn't mean its jujitsu. Do the Chinese call it that? NO. NEVER.
Bassai 2 years ago
@Shotokita i am with ya. seens some of your vids. check out midori yama budokai if you like.
jbabiuch 2 years ago
Yes, all of the locks and sub. on MYB can be found in the kata, as this sensei explains. Many of the kata come from Chinese masters (ex. Kushanku, Chinto) as the Okinawan m.a. simply memorized those fighting tech. in order to study and practice them. Every kata is a complete fighting system. Jujitsu is simply the samurai system(s) that used strikes, locks, submissions, etc. which came primarily from Chinese influences. All shared their tech. Kata contains these tech. in the Okuden waza. Oss!
Shotokita 2 years ago
@Shotokita I agree on some points, but disagree on some points. You had pointed out that Jujitsu is a Japanese Samurai art, influenced by Chinese grappling (Tui-Na). I must point out that Okinawa was its own country and still has its own language and culture, similar but separate from the Japanese Samurai ethos. Karate is Chinese influenced, but to call it Jujitsu (as the Chinese wouldn't call their art that) would be a confusion. Even today, there is a difference beween Jap and Oki Karate.
Bassai 2 years ago
Hi Bassai. You are ignoring the tremendous influence of the Satsuma samurai on the Okinawans under the Shimazu government. Funakoshi attributes To-de to the Shimazu weapon's ban, and so Chinese Kenpo, which is what Jujitsu basically was, seriously influenced the Okinawans. Later, Funakoshi and the other masters of that time codified the various kata into the "way" of karate. But they eliminated the "Okuden waza" for the masses and taught them in secret (to students like Kano and Ueshiba.)
Shotokita 2 years ago
@Shotokita I think our conflict is based on how we talk about terms of Jujitsu as well as our sources of information. As we both agree, that Jujitsu is a Japanese samurai art, and not a generalized Chinese one. Tui-Na, the Chinese form that influenced Japanese Jujitsu is not a Samurai art, right? Chinese Kenpo is not Japanese Jujitsu and not a samurai art, right? The Shimazu took over Okinawa, banned weapons, but did minimally influence Chinese Kenpo.
Bassai 2 years ago
@Shotokita Ran out of space. As we both go back further, we know that there are many styles of Kung-Fu that influenced Karate, which had nothing to do with the Satsuma Clan. Example, Fukkien White Crane as the original Chinese Kenpo style Kanrio Higaonna studied in China (had nothing to do with samurai jujitsu) when he developed Naha-Te. Among the Shotokan kata influenced by this: Hangetsu (Seisan). The other influence: Shorin style (Shaolin) which is supposedly derived straight from Shaolin
Bassai 2 years ago
@Shotokita (continuing Shaolin) which would definitely not have anything to do with the Satsuma Clan. Shorin-Ryu, the other Okinawan style, evolved from Shuri-Te. The Shotokan influence from Shorin-Ryu: Tekki Katas (Naihanchi in Okinawan or Naifunchin in Chinese). Again, I am not rebutting your implication that grappling has no place in Karate, but explaining that to call Chinese Kenpo and Japanese Jujitsu the same thing would be a confusion. (Cont'd).
Bassai 2 years ago
@Shotokita As I said, the influence of the Satsuma Clan's on the Okinawans is minimal, but there are a few of them who interchanged martial ideas with the Okinawan upper gentry. E.G.: Anko Azato, Funakoshi's teacher, who had an official position, went to Kyushu and practiced there. However to say that he came back to Okinawa and introduced Chinese Kempo, or change the system wouldn't make sense. Also, for the Satsuma to ban weapons but teach Jujitsu to Okinawans would not make sense either.
Bassai 2 years ago
Bassai. You are missing the point. The Moors conquered the Spanish and for 800 years taught their adversaries the horsemanship the Spanish used to kick the Moors out of Spain with. Likewise, all influences are responsible for the development of a martial art. The Chinese influence on Jujitsu and the samurai influence on Karate are the same. Funakoshi wore a topknot in the samurai fashion until he had to cut it off. He considered himself, and his ancestors, samurai. The rest is semantics.
Shotokita 2 years ago
@Shotokita Even if Funakoshi was an Okinawan samurai, to generalize any empty hand technique, Chinese or Japanese, as Jujitsu would be a confusion. That's why the name was originally written as "Chinese" hand by all the Okinawan masters of the art themselves. The only time the Okinawan masters (Funakoshi, Mabuni, Hanashiro Chomo, Motobu, etc.) called it Karate-Do as "Empty Hand" was post 1920's, and had nothing or little to do with jujitsu. Funakoshi's first book: "To-Te jitsu".
Bassai 2 years ago
Last, incorrect. Chinese Hand meant the techs. originated in China, as with Jujitsu. Fun. changed to Empty Hand after 1920s (correct.) The whole point was that the karateka in the video were also correct to use various tech. in their search for the Okuden Waza no longer taught. They are searching correctly. Karate is based on kata and kata needs to be explored the way they are doing it. We all find our systems in kata by studying them in depth. Jujitsu tech. are plentiful in kata. Merry X-mas
Shotokita 2 years ago
@Shotokita I don't think what the guys in the video were necessarily wrong. I was just contesting your statement that Karate came from, or was greatly influenced by Jujitsu. Also, if you have chance to ask Kanazawa sensei about the origins of Karate-Do, he will tell you that its origins come from China, not Jujitsu. He may even tell you that it can be even traced beyond China, as he had written in an article way back when.
Bassai 2 years ago
@Shotokita Lastly, I'd like to repeat what I had mentioned: the danger of saying that the art came straight from Jujitsu misleads the layman to think that Karate-Do is purely Japanese (which is not). I find your analogy of the Moors-Spanish conflict more of a tragedy, because many of the people who had helped the advancement of their military art are forgotten in that process. If we do the same thing with Karate, much of its rich non-Japanese history gets swallowed up by false hearsay.
Bassai 2 years ago
@Shotokita You might have just breezed through my extensive posts (and I don't blame you), I am not going in circles. I am contesting your statement that Karate-Do came from Jujitsu. I have presented you written facts that contradict this statement. To generalize all Okinawan samurai and Japanese samurai as the same as well as they all are masters of jujitsu would be incorrect. That's like calling Shotokan and Goju-Ryu as the same, just because their origins are from Okinawa.
Bassai 2 years ago
@Shotokita Oh, before I go and return to see your rebuttal, I would like you to know that I am a U.S. born Filipino (Queens, NY). My family went back to the Philippines when I was 7, and I returned to finish my last year of high school. While I was in the Philippines, I started in Karate (my teacher was JKA Mikami sensei's student in the 60's), I also studied our native art, Arnis / Escrima / Kali.
Bassai 2 years ago
@Shotokita Though the Philippines was subjugated by Spain in 1600's (they ruled until the late 1800's), the only influence they had on the art was the language (terms like espada y daga, escrimador, doble baston, etc.). None of the techniques in the art were influenced by Spanish fencing, horsemanship or the lance. So just because the Satsuma clan conquered Okinawa, does not mean that their immediate subjects (Okinawan samurai and peasants) were influenced by Japanese jujitsu.
Bassai 2 years ago
@Shotokita Thanks, I await your rebuttal. Merry X-mas and Happy New Year.
Ossu!
Bassai 2 years ago
@Shotokita All these statements I can back-up with written, researched material. If you'd like me to provide a bibliography, I'd be happy to. I would like to know which part of time did Kano and Ueshiba travel to Okinawa to learn "Okuden Waza" and which book you are taking this from. I have the book "Three Budo Masters" which illustrates the stories of Kano, FUnakoshi and Ueshiba. There is no mention of any "secret teaching". What's your researched source?
Bassai 2 years ago
Hi Bassai. They studied with Funakoshi in Tokyo, not Okinawa. In his book Karate-do My Way of Life, he writes about cutting off his own topknot. His father cried, "What have you done to yourself? You the son of a samurai!" Funakoshi considered himself a samurai, and both Azato and Itosu practiced Jujitsu along with what became Karate. "Okuden Waza" is very well known. Kanazawa, Nakayama, etc. learned it from Funakoshi directly. They were secret studies, so masters didn't write about them.
Shotokita 2 years ago
@Shotokita I had known that the three (Kano, Funakoshi and Ueshiba) had visited each other time to time, but that was after Okinawan Karate and kata was created. If they were exchanging ideas, you could say the influence of Kano and Ueshiba (Japanese Jujitsu) was added a period after Karate was into'd to Japanese mainland. Nakayama learned bunkai from Funakoshi, but according to Kanazawa, when he entered Takushoku Univ. Funakoshi was already too old and rarely taught (srce: Kanazawa, 10th Dan)
Bassai 2 years ago
@Shotokita (cont'd from Kanazawa) According to Kanazawa, he learned most of his lessons from sempai like NIshiyama and Nakayama. Also, Funakoshi himself wrote that Karate-Do is not the same and shouldn't be confused as Jujitsu (srce: Karate-Do Kyohan). Another piece of evidence lies in in the existence of traditional Karate Kata. This method of teaching had been handed down from Shaolin methods (learn a kata or Quan first, applications later).
Bassai 2 years ago
@Shotokita (cont'd from Quan) Though some kata cannot be traced to its origins, some provide some clues. Like, Kanku-Dai (Kusanku / Kosokun) can be traced back to a Chinese military attache who was shipwrecked on Okinawa. Hangetsu, a derivative of an Okinawan kata Seisan, can be traced straight back to its Fukkien White Crane roots. If you think kata has its origins in Jujitsu (Satsuma?) which kata, and its methods of practice for that matter, are existent in Japanese Jujitsu system?
Bassai 2 years ago
@Shotokita (cont'd from jujitsu kata) If you can name a kata practiced both by Jujitsu (Satsuma?) and Karate-Do, I'll check your sources and correct my notes.
Correct me if I am wrong, but is you're point that Karate came straight from Jujitsu? Aren't you implying that Karate was originally a Japanese samurai grappling art when you say that? That's the point I'm contesting.
Bassai 2 years ago
@Shotokita (cont'd point) Because the danger of saying that the art came straight from Jujitsu misleads the layman to think that Karate-Do is purely Japanese (which is not). All the Asian masters (Okinawan or Japanese) who have written about the history of the art acknowledge that its origins come from China (not Satsuma Jujitsu) so as to distinguish itself as an art not of Japanese origins. If you have a book that says otherwise, I will view my own sources in a different light.
Bassai 2 years ago
@Shotokita (cont'd danger of confusion) May I also point out that the practice of Karate-Do among Okinawans started before the Satsuma invasion (1609). Okinawan civil wars were ended when King Shoshin (1477-1526) took control and prohibited the use and stockpiling of weapons in 1507 (srce: Ancient Okinawan Martial Arts Koryu Uchinadi 2, by Patrick McCarthy, Tuttle 1999). According to the same source, landowners were forced to learn alternative means of protecting themselves.
Bassai 2 years ago
It's Ok Bassai. It is good that you read a lot, but you need to connect the dots better. I never said karate kata comes from Jujitsu. Jujitsu kata are very different, although they are inside the karate kata throughout. They are often Okuden Waza. Yes, both have their origins from China, and Jujitsu, being much older was a great influence on karate, through the samurai and prior. I am in SKIF. Kanazawa learned from Funakoshi in the 1950s. Fun. died in 1958 at 90 and was very sharp.
Shotokita 2 years ago
@Shotokita Kanazawa writes in his book, Kanazawa, 10th dan, that despite his age, he was sharp. However, he also states that Funakoshi rarely taught and sometimes was carried around by piggyback. He also writes in his book that he learned mostly from his sempai. BTW, I am a student of Mori Masataka sensei, JKA, NY. Mori sensei was Kanazawa's sempai in Takudai.
Bassai 2 years ago
Bassai. You jumble your information. Kanazawa did learn from Fun. He didn't need to spar him to learn from him. Jujitsu's origins were from China and elsewhere. It is much older than karate. Okinawans learned from both Chinese systems and Japanese Jujitsu (samurai and prior) as well. These are influences and they are present in the kata. Your arguments are circular. You are saying the same thing I am but don't see the connections. Best to Mori sensei. Keep studying. Oss!
Shotokita 2 years ago
@Shotokita I'm sorry, but I don't think I am jumbling info. As I had stated, Kanazawa himself writes in his book about Funakoshi and how much he learned from him. It would be unfair to the Chinese to call their system Jujitsu, because they are simply not Japanese and the actual Chinese influence on Karate is not the same influence on Jujitsu. Example Fukkien White Crane (look up on You Tube documentary) bears no resemblance to Japanese Jujitsu whatsoever.
Bassai 2 years ago
@Shotokita No disrespect, but I think you want to generalize information based on your assumptions and lack of knowledge of actual historical fact. Funakoshi himself states in his book: Karate-Do Nyumon: "There are also a great many people who try to blend a little knowledge of jujutsu with a tiny bit of Karate study. The result is strange and unworthy of being called either." I am not saying the people in the vid are wrong. With the BJJ explosion came research for Karate grappling.
Bassai 2 years ago
@Shotokita Hence, I tried my own research to find, original Karate grappling techniques and its relationship with Japanese Jujitsu. This led me to the study of Karate's history (hence I compiled a huge library on Karate-Do history, Judo, Jujitsu, Aikido and Kung-Fu) This is turn, led me to realize that there is hardly any factual, written proof that connects original Okinawan Karate-Do to Japanese Jujitsu. All I could find are traceable connections to the Southern Chinese forms.
Bassai 2 years ago
@Shotokita I even joined a Matsubayashi Shorin-Ryu dojo for 8 months, while still studying with JKA (w/out Mori sensei's knowledge) just to learn the original bunkai of the Heian katas (Pinan). There I learned about Omote bunkai and Ura bunkai. The teacher himself stated that the "Okuden Waza" you talk about isn't much different than Ura bunkai, since Ura bunkai is open to definition. There were grappling techniques, but they were always preceded by a strike.
Bassai 2 years ago
@Shotokita The grappling techniques themselves didn't require you to do extensive ground work either. They were very simple stand-up techniques, which either used a joint lock (kansetsu waza) or throw (nage waza). Choke holds were introduced in more advanced kata. I quit because I couldn't afford both dojos at the same time.
Bassai 2 years ago
@Shotokita I later left the dojo for two years to try out Kyokushin to experience full contact fighting and body conditioning, as well as close-distance technique (hook punches, low kicks, uppercuts and elbows in Jiyu Kumite). While with the Kyokushin, I missed the beauty of Shotokan kata, so I wanted to do more research on its bunnkai. After reaching 2nd Kyu, I moved on to BJJ with my brother's encouragement, to find a link with Shotokan bunkai. Sad to say, there is very little, if none.
Bassai 2 years ago
@Shotokita Going back to the original argument: Did Karate come from Japanese Jujitsu? I would have to say, it was influenced later by Jujitsu (post 1920's) but to say its origins are from Jujitsu would be false. Again, in my extensive research to find original Okinawan grappling techniques in Karate (which exists), I find no historical, written fact / proof of the Japanese Jujitsu influence on it. No Japanese Karate master mentions this, neither does Kano or Ueshiba mention this either.
Bassai 2 years ago
@Shotokita I mean no disrespect, as a fellow practitioner of legit Shotokan Karate-Do, but I have been backing up my arguments with well researched material written by different authors. Despite their different sources, their conclusions of the subject mentioned are the same. To generalize the facts of history and make assumptions would be like calling Shotokan and Goju-Ryu the same thing... which you would agree is FALSE. Just because they come from Okinawa, doesn't make them the same art.
Bassai 2 years ago
@Shotokita In that respect, just because the Satsuma samurai conquered the Okinawan warriors does not mean that their Jujitsu had a great influence on Okinawan Karate. Again, there is no historical record that mentions this assumption, and no Okinawan or Japanese master pays homage to the said clan. They all point to China as its source. Again, just because Itosu and Azato were Okinawan samurai, they were not masters of Jujitsu. Okinawan samurai are not the same as mainland Japanese samurai
Bassai 2 years ago
@Shotokita Okinawan samurai had their own martial traditions, because they were a different culture. If you want me to back this statement up, we can go further. I have no problem with that as I am a history major in college. Again, Funakoshi himself distinguishes that Karate is not jujitsu, neither is its origins connected to it. PLease prove me wrong with written facts / books. So far I have yet to be corrected. Again, no disrespect. I love truthful, respectable debates on history.
Bassai 2 years ago
@Shotokita (cont'd. King Shoshin) During this period, Okinawa enjoyed favorable relations with China. According to martial arts historian P. McCarthy: "...every facet of Okinawa's culture was deeply influenced by the more sophisticated Chinese culture. Up to and beyond the Meiji Restoration (1868), various kinds of quanfa had found its way across to this tiny archipelago, where the self-defense principles of Chinese quanfa enables its users to subjugate an adversary without rendering..."
Bassai 2 years ago
Bassai. I have a Ph.D. in Literature and understand how to extrapolate information. I have black belts in Karate, Jujitsu, Iaido and Kobudo, lived in Jap. for 4 years. I began training in 1970 and even studied the Chinese Goju system. The samurai overpowered Okinawa, influenced the natives. Many became Samurai, including the masters. They practiced Samurai arts and learned from them as well as from the Chinese. I've read all the books as well. You are missing the larger historical point. Oss!
Shotokita 2 years ago
@Shotokita Good. I am glad that I am not facing another self-glorified heretic, but an intelligent one. You know that Goju System has no resemblance to Japanese jujitsu. You also know that jujitsu itself has hundreds of styles. What influence of what school of Jujitsu influenced Goju-Ryu? The answer would silence me, especially if you could name a source of info. @Shotokita Good. I am glad that I am not facing another self-glorified heretic, but an intelligent one.
Bassai 2 years ago
@Shotokita Actually, this is the last question (I apologize) Despite your evidence, is it correct to say that Karate-Do came from Jujitsu? Remember, as a PHD in Literature, you know the dangers of saying it simply came from Jujitsu, since Kata, the soul of Karate-Do practice, would be a lie (false truth). Since we both agree, Karate would not be the art itself, without the practice of Kata, a tradition passed down from Chinese martial arts.
Bassai 2 years ago
@Shotokita May I also point out, that Chosei never came across Ueshiba. So to say just because the resemblance between his style and Aikido could be coincidental, since man and his movements could be analyzed logically. Also, we both agree that Jujitsu systems came form China, henceforth a non-samurai tradition. There are many circular movements in schools of Kung-Fu. You must point out that Chosei's movem,ents come straight from Satsuma jujitsu, which non of the Okinawans pay homage to.
Bassai 2 years ago
@Shotokita I finally found the source of your passage in wikipedia. It only suggests the resemblance to aikijutsu, which would be impossible to say is the source of Karate-Do since the time frame and geography of the development of both arts are separate . Another problem with using wikipedia as a source is because anyone can write their opinion on any article. Again, I'm not saying there is no grappling in Karate-Do, I'm refuting your your statement that Karate came from Jujitsu.
Bassai 2 years ago
@Shotokita (cont'd from P. McCarthy)"...serious injury unless absolutely necessary." So to say that Japanese Jujitsu's influence on the Origins of Karate would be minimal, is correct. May I also point out that the Okinawans had their culture and language separate from the Japanese.
Bassai 2 years ago
@Shotokita May I also add that Funakoshi stresses in his "Karate-Do Kyohan" that Karate-Do is not Jujitsu nor is it related to it.
Bassai 2 years ago
Bassai. You seem to have a real problem with the Okinawans being influenced by Japanese. Are New Mexicans not influenced by Mexico? Kanazawa, Funakoshi, Miyagi, Otsuka, etc. all mention the samurai and their influence. Jujitsu is a samurai system influenced by the Chinese. Karate is a mix of Chinese and indig., infl. by samurai for over 200 years. They are different arts, but the blending is there, and in kata. It's only natural. However, you are entitled to believe what you want. Oss!
Shotokita 2 years ago
@Shotokita I have no problem with the Japanese influence on Okinawans whatsoever. Shotokan, Goju-kai, Wado-Ryu, Shindo Jinen-Ryu are among the styles which Okinawans call "Japanized" versions of Karate. I do not refute the influence of Jujitsu on Karate today. But I was only contending your statement that Karate came from Jujitsu. I tried to find the connection in Karate history, but could not find sufficient evidence. In history, Japanese Jujitsu's major influence happened post 1920's. Oss
Bassai 2 years ago
Bassai. The styles you mention are what I'm talking about. They did not exist alone prior to the 1920s. They were and are influenced by the samurai, as you just stated (Japanized,) which is why the masters who founded them claim direct warrior lineage to the samurai - and proudly so. And the karate of Itosu, Azato etc. was also influenced by samurai as well as the Chinese. You should read my good friend Iain Abernethy's work. I think you would enjoy it and see the connection to kata. Oss!
Shotokita 2 years ago
Bassai, FYI, spoke to my mate Iain Abernethy who said, "Some of the styles of (early) karate were heavily influenced by Jap. Jujitsu, others were not, and were mostly Chinese influenced. However, grappling is present throughout kata, mostly simple s.d. tech. though is still somewhat controversial." I trust his scholarship like no other. Kata bunkai has been his quest for many, many years. Read his, "Bunkai-Jutsu." It is ground breaking. Oss! Good luck...
Shotokita 2 years ago
@Shotokita Yes, I understand your point. As I had said, Karate did not come from exclusively Jujitsu, but a combination of martial arts (as we both now agree). But what I'd like to also point out hat Karate-Do, as practiced by the Okinawan samurai art, was considered the "jujitsu" of said masters. You must understand that to the Japanese and Chinese (Asian cultures, really) that it is important to pay homage to their teachers (martial art or not) for respect and authenticity of their school.
Bassai 2 years ago
@Shotokita None of the original Okinawan masters mention that they learned "jujitsu" as you understand it (Japanese), from any known jujitsu teacher. What they do mention is where they had learned their Karate-Do, which in itself has inclusive grappling techniques. Simply saying, Itosu and Azato were both known as Karate-Do masters, not jujitsu masters, because Karate-Do was the Okinawan "jujitsu" or method of unarmed combat.
Bassai 2 years ago
@Shotokita It was never written as, Itosu or Azato learned Karate-Do from so and so, and jujitsu from so and so. Okinawan Karate-Do was and is a complete fighting system with its own grappling techniques (See Pat McCarthy's, a well known Karate-Do historian, work and research into Koryu Uchnadi or Okinawan fighting systems). Funakoshi himself distinguishes Karate-Do as a separate art from Japanese Jujitsu.
Bassai 2 years ago
Bassai. I never said that they were practicing pure Jujitsu. All I said was that both Chinese and Jap. grappling arts had an influence on karate, which did not even exist as "karate" until the 1920s. Iain said so as well, as did the masters. And today, these influences are even stronger and will continue to be just as karate influences other m. arts as well. With this I leave the discussion and wish you well in your studies, etc. You are on a good path. Oss!
Shotokita 2 years ago
@Shotokita That's why I refuted your statement in the beginning. Today, their are many practitioners trying to do research into grappling systems (me included, in BJJ) and seeing if they can fit that into their kata's ura bunkai, which I have no problem with whatsoever. As long as the researcher knows how to grapple effectively. The sad thing is that many try to incorporate grappling moves they read in books or see in videos, not knowing how to practice it and lacking grappling basics.
Bassai 2 years ago
@Bassai Pretty much, because learning a random throw or joint lock is like learning one random punch. It's all the inbetween (the transitions, the sense keeping your weight down, kazushi, how one technique sets up another, etc. etc.) that matters, whether you're doing standup or groundwork.
maofas 1 year ago
@maofas At least you are one of the few who understand the right way of training on how to grapple effectively. Unlike these people above who are just applying token grappling moves on "rag doll" opponents. If they only knew how to train properly, they wouldn't be so keen on throwing random grappling techniques in a kata. As you said, an appropriate grappling move must be used in the appropriate time, as the practice of grappling itself requires a partner who is resisting the technique.
Bassai 1 year ago
@Bassai Modern Shotokan Karate-do falls into a grey area of combat, where they study a few techniques occasionally that are generic and common like wrist locks and throws. This is not "Self-defense" but a false sense of self-defense. I learned less functional combat in 8 years of studying Shotokan Karate-do then the amount of functional combat techniques I learned from studying one flow drill(in particular: ne-waza) from Koryu Uchinadi Kenpo Jutsu.
Gwisss 1 year ago
@Gwisss The correct frase is Oyo, not Bunkai.-- people should consider taking the time to learn about the Japanese language before they start using the wrong phrase. before you know it the whole world will used the wrong phrase.
NitenRyu559 7 months ago
@NitenRyu559 Was this comment suppose to be directed at me?
Bunkai means "analysis" or "breakdown" of a Kata. And Bunkai Oyo relates to a breakdown or analysis of a kata that is different then the standard(that which was set by the association in which you practice). I'm not too sure how this relates to my comment posted 9 months ago. The current STANDARD of bunkai in the largest Karate association is not a functional curriculum for teaching self-defense.
Gwisss 7 months ago
@Shotokita Example: If a black belt in Shotokan, after studying the grappling moves in Heian Shodan all the way to the the big five: Kanku-Dai, Bassai Dai, Empi, Jion and Jitte, most probably lose in a grappling match against a shodan in judo or BJJ, simply because the time spent by grapplers on these basic techniques is about 80% of their training. I do suggest that the Shotokan practitioner spend a year or two of simply grappling, so as to understand and master the art.
Bassai 2 years ago
@Shotokita A great example is Lyoto Machida. He wouldn't have done so well in his MMA career if he did not train in BJJ, Judo and Sumo separately from his Shotokan practice. He also had the fortune of having time to practice the arts at the same time, as many of only have ten to fifteen hours of practice a week.
Bassai 2 years ago
I am well aware kataguruma is not a karate move... That part was copied from an old video made in okinawa by an 8th dan since I thought it was a very good explanation. You can always critisize them...
Furthermore I appreciate criticism especially since this is an old video but not insult. Take it as it is or say something constructive and on top of all try not to go around seeking out wherever you can put your judgement, it will make your life a lot more enjoyable.
Marco46000 2 years ago
U guys should retire... that's an insult for karate specially to shotokan...
u guys should be like blue belts... not even brown. by the way
u should learn better the karate technique cuz Kataguruma is not in karate .....Noobs
origachima 2 years ago
@origachima ignorance is bliss
jbabiuch 2 years ago
Super shiit this Sucks a lot!!!
origachima 2 years ago
crap
karatecockboy 2 years ago
this is fukin awsome ihope to be this good at shotokan 1 day
mmalover16 2 years ago
if you think these guys are good you should check out the world tournaments jka or wkf bunkai and team bunkai
NakhitX 2 years ago
- one the guy in this sucks and not worth shodan.
- the bunkai sucks
keep at it train harder much harder!
- the girl was ok
NakhitX 2 years ago
1. Making up applications isn't easy... I only started making up my own applications in earnest when I first got shodan, that he's doing them at all is just showing that he's got the right spirit of experimentation.
2. He's obviously thinking about the moves, but then he goes on to do some finishing move that's very far removed from anything in the kata. It's not really a bunkai if the moves aren't in the kata... it's great to elaborate on what a move is for, but it's good to limit to the kata.
BrianNeltner 2 years ago
@BrianNeltner Extra finishing moves are just fine. I look at it as pushing the pause button on the kata while you extemporaneously beat him to a bloody pulp.
ptboyindenver 1 year ago
Vraiment très bien! Comment s'appelle la chanson?
LaMusicaDentro 2 years ago
That was poor bunkai, although bunkai is just ones interpretation of a kata.
Although it looked very similar to just submission grappling.
Jamesriotrawrbellion 2 years ago
Man, since when unpractical, nonsense techniques = bunkai?
CarNikolaj 2 years ago 2
I never said anything like that dude.
We get taught that bunkai is like using that kata for self defense. For example - first kata, you block a kick, then punch the attacker.
Saifa, someone is grabbing your arm, you drop down, break the hold then backfist them.
But as you get higher and in to the higher katas , you should begin to create your own bunkai, to help develop your own understanding.
Jamesriotrawrbellion 2 years ago
u call that bunkai.. a shodan like that type of kata...
god bless u man ....
DAMN!!1
origachima 2 years ago
bad uke bad kata...BAD BUNKAI!
origachima 3 years ago 2
I agree.
Jamesriotrawrbellion 2 years ago
haha i wanna see you how you do zhis stuff guy ;) you would get beatin up from those guys
MT2FUN 2 years ago
ke mal salio eso ._.
patrixiotaulis 3 years ago
Trey bien! Merci por le video! Osu!
thankful2one 3 years ago
Temo che Anko Itosu si stia rivoltando nella tomba...
iocarlo 3 years ago
Kata and bunkai are too much different! Some applications ineffective.....
emireno 3 years ago
Not really to do it well you would have to get a grip to torsion les wrist and then give a big blow in the knees to basculat the attackers body, to dangerous to show properly for our level.
Marco46000 3 years ago
Oh, forgot to mention. The first application relies solely on the attacker doing a somersault of some kind. Look how little effort the defender applies. Pure Hollywood.
mothervelvet 3 years ago
Unworkable, compliant bunkai. Nice vid though.
mothervelvet 3 years ago
i think this bunkai it's so far from real fighting situation...but i also think that this is only a demostrative bunkai...so...nice, good work...
schnickel87 3 years ago
I WAS INPRESS KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK.
lilwen3 3 years ago
Gud!
KoToFeys 4 years ago
Interesting !!
But there's not only one bunkai !
I have some doubts about your armlocks but good work anyway !
sebTergal 4 years ago
Thanks for the work! I like the Iain Abernethy Bunkai-jutsu series, but he hasn't published anything on this kata, so I really appreciate the effort you put in. Some of the techniques look pretty workable! And I'm not very good at reverse-engineering the kata, so I can use all the help I can get.
oldusedking 4 years ago
thats some kissaki kai
RPTHUD5 4 years ago
very nice idea of presenting the moves from different angles. I also like the omote continuation of the moves. You should continue in that direction, try to validate your ideas with some senior traditional shotakan sensei. It is a very good start, though. Congratulations & I hope to see more of you 2!
DocLoony 4 years ago
its your video do what you want...system of a down kicks ass, and so do martial arts. convenient no?
kempobrad 4 years ago
harrastan shotokania ja osaan tuon katan mutta tuo bunkai oli vähän ehkä liian yliluonnollinen.
i don't speak english very well, because i'am finnish
jeekarate 4 years ago
Yeah very good bunkai! ;) I practise Shotokan, and we no make into the katas more proyections and luxations.
(i'm no speak english very well.. sorry)
creisi 5 years ago
Some pretty unconventional bunkai there, but it's obvious you put heaps of work into making the video, so well done - let's see some more, but without the metal soundtrack.
R0CKY44 5 years ago
Well the tune was kind of a fast decide didn't really think about it and well musik isn't what I put this video here for so... And for the impressive part well I'll be glade to rate some of youre videos
Marco46000 5 years ago
rubbish no offense but its terrible do suffin faster more impressuve especially with a tune like that
martialMASTER360 5 years ago