Theophany 6. Byzantine Divine Liturgy at St. Basil the Great

[DerrMon]

@vaio720 I don't think they are seeking "Orthodox" approval.

[CarlosBarrera393]

@Bamafan7202

Pope is only an authoritative name.

[Christopher71488]

Yeah, that's the point, it's not an orthodox church, it's a Catholic church, with Catholics celebrating rites that existed before the orthodox created the schism between the Holy Roman Church and the eastern church.

[KabaneTheChristian]

This is an imitation of the Orthodox faith. It looks Orthodox, it sounds Orthodox, but it is not Orthodox.

[DerrMon]

@KabaneTheChristian you look Catholic, you act Catholic, but you are not Catholic. You are in schism, schismatic.

[KabaneTheChristian]

@DerrMon

I don't pretend to be Roman Catholic. I am most certainly not under the rule of Rome. The Uniate Churches were created for the express purpose of confusing and proselytizing the Orthodox.

[DerrMon]

@KabaneTheChristian they weren't "created", they were under the confusion of your bishops and happened to come back to the fold. What do you have to say about the Western Rite Orthodox? Now they were created to entice Anglicans and Catholics into converting to your faith.

[KabaneTheChristian]

@DerrMon

The Western Rite was created to accomodate the needs of Western Christians who had expressed a desire to be received into the Church. You've already acknowledged that it doesn't just have to do with Roman Catholics. It had more to do with liturgical Protestants. Nonetheless, the Orthodox Western Rite is not the same as the Tridentine Rite.

[DerrMon]

@KabaneTheChristian I think it has a lot to do with Roman Catholics when they use our ancient liturgical rite, the Mass of Pope St Gregory.

[KabaneTheChristian]

@DerrMon

The Mass of St. Gregory predates the schism.

[DerrMon]

@KabaneTheChristian so what? Many of of our liturgies predate the Estern schism.. We still use it and just recently you "Orthodox" decided it might be a neat idea to use it to entice other Westerners. You should read the prayer book of St Ambrose for Western Rite Orthodox. It has many of the same prayers in my Baltimore prayer book. Who copied who?

[DerrMon]

and I wonder what you refer to when you say "Western Christians"? Might that be Roman Catholics? Oh yeah, I am sure you're going to come back with , "no, I mean liturgical Portestants like the Anglicans"

[KabaneTheChristian]

@DerrMon

I mean both. Both had expressed a desire to return to the Church. Yet, we don't dance around the issue. We are not Roman Catholic, we are not under the jurisdiction of the Pope. Uniates are pretend Orthodox. I have heard them call themselves "Orthodox in communion with Rome". One Uniate bishop, Elias Zoghby, professed full belief in the doctrines of the Orthodox Church and denied papal supremacy and infallibility.

[KabaneTheChristian]

@DerrMon

Latin-rite Roman Catholics often have this idealized picture of the Uniates, where they believe everything that they do, but are simply using a different liturgical rite. This is not true. There is enormous confusion among the Uniates about doctrine. Most of them support dual communion with the Orthodox Church and the Church of Rome, even if the Orthodox Church and the Church of Rome are not in communion with each other.

[DerrMon]

@KabaneTheChristian if they believe that then they are in conflict with the Bishop of Rome. The canons of the Eastern Rite churches in union with the bishop of Rome state otherwise. You can look them or I can supply you with a link if you so desire. But, I know that in the middle east intercommunion is tolerated. That is a well-known fact.

[KabaneTheChristian]

@DerrMon

I know what the Code of Canons says. That represents what Rome wishes the Uniates were, not what they are. Have you read about the Zoghby Initiative? Zoghby expressly criticized the Code of Canons as an inaccurate portrayal of how the Uniate churches were governed.

I know intercommunion is tolerated, and it is tragic. Intercommunion is a result of unity, not a means to achieve it.

[DerrMon]

you should compare the Antichian Orthodox Western Rite Mass to that of the Tridentine Mass. Do it and let me know what you think.

[KabaneTheChristian]

@DerrMon

What's your point? They share a common ancestor, the Mass of St. Gregory the Great, which was in use before the schism. But Orthodox recite it in the vernacular, while Roman Catholics recite it in Latin. This alone demonstrates that we aren't trying to confuse anybody. The Uniates try to confuse Orthodox by proclaiming that they are merely "Orthodox in communion with Rome". The Melkites put out this "two point profession of faith"

[KabaneTheChristian]

@DerrMon

1. I believe everything which Eastern Orthodoxy teaches.

2. I am in communion with the Bishop of Rome as the first among the bishops, according to the limits recognized by the Holy Fathers of the East during the first millennium, before the separation.

This is intended to confuse the faithful into thinking they can move to a Uniate church and still believe the same thing.

[DerrMon]

@KabaneTheChristian where you recite the creed do you not say " I believe one, holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church" ?

[KabaneTheChristian]

@DerrMon

hahah, how so? The Mass of the Western Orthodox Church often doesn't even resemble traditional Roman Catholic Masses, because it uses different Western rites.

[DerrMon]

@KabaneTheChristian they use the Mass of Pope St Gregory which is what we use in our Tridentine Mass. Do a little research.

[KabaneTheChristian]

Trent based the Tridentine Mass on the Mass of St. Gregory the Great. The two rites, however, are not identical. Furthermore, we use not only the Mass of St. Gregory, but also, and probably more often, the Mass of St. Tikhon the Great, which is a uniquely Orthodox Western rite. Furthermore, our Masses are almost always in the vernacular and a capella, which Tridentine Masses are not. If we were trying to imitate traditional Roman Catholic liturgy, then why are we using the vernacular?

[DerrMon]

@KabaneTheChristian because Orthodox are known to use the vernacular? Russian, Ukranian, Serbian, Greek etc.etc.

[KabaneTheChristian]

@DerrMon

That is because at the Russian Revolution, all these countries sent over their bishops to the United States to establish communities for their faithful here. This has led to the present uncanonical situation and hence, use of non-vernacular languages. The OCA and Antioch in America, however, both use the vernacular. It will be into these two jurisdictions, I predict, that all other American jurisdictions will be united with.

[DerrMon]

@KabaneTheChristian well, I just want to say that it is not a custom of mine to post comments and I don't intend on dragging this on. If it irks you then I suggest you take it up with the Melkites or other Eastern rite Catholics. For now I will sign off.

Pax Tecum- Peace be with you ...and remember that both of us must strive to always imitate our Lord and Savior.

[DerrMon]

St Tikhon borrowed heavly from the Sarum Rite which was the rite of Old England.

[KabaneTheChristian]

@DerrMon

I know what he did. He revised the English Book of Common prayer to be in accordance with Orthodox doctrine. Few rites are created ex nihilo.

[DerrMon]

@KabaneTheChristian so how can you say it's exclusively Orthodox? Some guy revised the Book of Common Prayer (which is based on the Sarum Rite) and then called it "Orthodox". That's about it.

[KabaneTheChristian]

@DerrMon

Because it's not in use in any other Christian communion. It was revised in order to conform to Orthodox doctrine, it is not identical to the Book of Common Prayer.

[DerrMon]

@KabaneTheChristian you should read how the Byzantine Emperor forced other Rites to abandon thier ancient liturgical rites in favor of the Byzantine rite.

Case in ponint: The Antiochian Orthodox didn't use the Byzantine liturgy from the beginnning. Theirs was much older, but were forced to implement the Byzantine Emperor's rite.

[KabaneTheChristian]

@DerrMon

I am aware of the abuses of the Byzantine Emperor, and I do not endorse them.

[KabaneTheChristian]

@DerrMon

It irks us because the Uniates have a history of attempting to proselytize and confuse Orthodox into thinking that Eastern Orthodoxy and Uniatism is the same thing.

[sotelios]

they are not orthodox this guys here. there are catholics!!! they should be ashamed of using the way that the orthodox christian celebrate the eucharist. it is a great problem between the orthodox church and the catholic beleive, and the vatican for proselytism reasons and only does not want to solve it!! shame

[luvpinas123]

@sotelios it's called de-latinisation....

[padude64]

Uniontown Pa

[alexanyanEVN]

is this church in USA?

[katolikogroup]

Yes, Alex. It is at 14263 Mulberry Dr. Los Gatos, California

[nikolaidis6]

This guy is not Orthodox.

[xplund]

Not to split hairs, but I believe the Byzantines say they are Orthodox Christians in union with Rome. I looked on the website and that part caught my eye.

[padude64]

This location is at Mt Saint Macrina

[amplidyne]

Actually it is in California. Los Gatos, near San Jose.

[padude64]

Byzantium

[Koliberek]

Why ths liturgy is in English???

[groskos]

This is a Byzantine (formerly Ruthenian or Greek) Catholic liturgy. They have fealty to the pope since the 17th century through a reunity agreement in eastern Czechoslovakia, but they still use the Orthodox liturgies and traditions. It is hoped that they can be a bridge to reestablishing unity with Rome by all Orthodox. This church is part of the Byzantine Catholic Eparchy of Passaic.

[padude64]

Rich greedy people shall enter hell!

[RadicalWhig]

Who produced this liturgy? Is there an "official" translation of the liturgy into English, or do local churches do their own?

[WeenisLad]

The Byzantine rite was always meant to be in the vernacular.

[kalamation]

The distinct traditions of the Roman vs. Byzantine (and other) churches is a historical miracle. During the 129 years of persecution by various Roman emperors, ALL the Christian Churches went underground. They could no longer openly communicate with each other. After the Edict of Milan in 313, the various traditions emerged SACRAMENTAL INTACT, i.e. SACRAMENTALLY IDENTICAL. This means that the Holy Spirit guided them while they no longer had each other.

[alexeykh]

filioque

[Phronema]

This is not true Orthodoxy!

[darkcoven]

This Greek Catholic Mass is beautiful. May God bless the Eastern Catholics and their holy apostolic traditions and may they convert others back to the true Faith of Christ. Forever live Sacred Tradition and the Traditional Latin Mass!!

[jtjl3]

We Catholics do not, do not, do not believe that the Pope is Christ on Earth. That is a lie and a misrepresentation of what we believe. We do believe he can, in certain limited occasions make infallible statements on matters of faith and morals. Also we believe he has universal jurisdiction over the Church; that is, he has authority to govern and intervene in disputes, problems, etc. as needed. This is not the same as believing the Pope is Christ on Earth--that, of course, would be heretical.

[padude64]

I love my religion

[padude64]

My 2 aunts were nuns here!

[padude64]

Mount Saint Macrina, St Basil the Great in Uniontown Pa I believe this was the pilgrimage.

[padude64]

Does the name Subrick ring a bell?

[padude64]

This church comes from Byzantium

[padude64]

This place is absolutely beautiful!

[padude64]

my aunts were nuns at this convent! It is in Uniontown Pa

[Nyxtolouloudo]

If they are Catholic they must be confused Catholics this looks more like a Greek church than a Catholic, the whole thing looks Orthodox.

[katolikogroup]

it is because the Greek Church is part of the Eastern Church where the Byzantine Church is also a part of.

[Nyxtolouloudo]

Do you know what Byzantine is and what it means?

[Nyxtolouloudo]

Again, do you know what Byzantine means? Do you know what Byzantio is?

[Milliardo5]

Eastern rite Catholics are very much united with the Church in Rome. It seems Orthodox, because Eastern Catholics have been permitted to keep the Divine Liturgy and their traditions while at the same time united with the whole Catholic Church.

[DRDNIBOY]

This is a product of ecumenical stuff. Most Orthodox arent happy with this hybrid that is a contradiction in its self.

[katolikogroup]

The Catholic Byzantine Church is an Eastern Church united to the Church in Rome

[DRDNIBOY]

Which really makes no sence because the main reason for the split between the 2 chruches was the idea of the Pope being Christ here on earth. While Orthodox have always said that Christ doesent need a representaive on earth becasue Christ never left. He is always present.

[katolikogroup]

The Eastern Church's reunification with the Western Church does makes sense. More Ecclessial Communities are realizing more and more that the everyone should always be in communion with the Pope, the Bishop of Rome.

[katolikogroup]

Peter is the one entrusted by Christ to hold the keys of the Kingdom, which is a symbol of the position as Christ's Prime Minister on earth. He is the one who alone can bind and loose on earth. All the bishops and faithful are also only capable of binding and loosing only in unity with him in matters of faith and morals.

Let us pray for the unity of the Eastern and the Western Church.

[littleringodud]

Actually, it was not the person of Saint Peter that the church was built on (and keys of Heaven given to), but his faith when he confessed his belief in Christ. Besides, authority is given to those who have the word of God in their hearts, not necessarily those who have been ordained to the highest and most honoured office (i.e. Bishop of Rome). This has been demonstrated repeatedly throughout history, where archbishops took orders from laymen, and monks gave demands and orders to Emperors.

[mihankhah]

@katolikogroup

There can be NO unity between Eastern and Western Churches so long as the Western Church does not address the issue of its faulty Creed which incorporates the "filioque", does not address the Papacy itself which is non-Canonical, and last but never the least, does not address Rome's attempt to bring Orthodox Christians into Rome's orbit through "Uniatism" and Uniate Churches (which is exactly what happened in the Western Ukraine).

[abookire]

you are so wrong! read about the early church and how it was formed. The Orthodox Church alone is the true, incorruptible, Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church

[irimiar]

you are right

[VivaPink]

He's commemorating Benidict Pope of Rome? But this looks like an Orthodox Church.. how deceiving.

[katolikogroup]

Hi Vivapink! The Byzantine Church broke with the Western Church before and was part of the Eastern Orthodox Church. But eventually, they united to the Bishop of Rome who is the Pope thus fully uniting themselves to the Catholic Church

[OrthoArchitectDU]

@katolikogroup

Actually, the Eastern Orthodox Church and Roman Catholic Churches are still in schism and will be for probably a long time.

This is a Byzantine Catholic Church, which is a Roman Catholic Church that practice the Byzantine Rite. They are in no way associated with the Eastern Orthodox Church.

[mihankhah]

@VivaPink

This is a Uniate Church (Eastern-rite Catholic Church).

[antoninaC]

its nice to know that there are other filipinos interested in the Byzantine rite divine liturgy. Feel free to join my parish in Anaheim, California. Annunciation Byzantine Catholic Church welcomes all visitors ;D