Sogen Con 2007 - fansubs panel (1)

[RoboP]

You know having watched this series of vidoes, I appreciate Greg's insight.

But at the same time as of late, recent events such as how Bandai Entertainment scaled back alot and why as Ken Iyadomi outlined.

I get the feeling the Japanese in part will be more responsible for killing the industry with unrealistic expectations for pricing and all of that kind of deal.

Bandai Visual proved this point for the brieft period they exsisted.

Funimation seems to be survivng due to the way they work.

[MissManicMellie]

Still watching this is 2011. Information is always important, no matter how long ago it was put out there.

[mrzisawesome]

fan subs and scanlations ruin the industry

[Livin4TheKing316]

i must say, i could listen to greg talk ALL DAY. love him XD

[sasukesama122]

who gives a shit

[yeeshoelaceX]

waitwaitwait.

He was like "Oh and Tiffany Grant's here to. And *insert name here*.

Who was that? :)

[mrzisawesome]

@yeeshoelaceX Tiffany Grant FTW!

[yeeshoelaceX]

great quality, thanks for posting. you go Greg!

[kristinacat3]

great panel and really informative on the issue of piracy and disrespect on the part of the anime "fans"

[Donitsu2002]

uhh, yes he is.

[EatRune]

Question: Why DO so many people watch anime primarily through fansubs? Most people primarily watch live-action media and American cartoons through legal means, so why not anime?

I don't get why people are watching fansubs of 2nd seasons or spin-off OVAs. They don't need to "sample" it, and good sales of the first season are the only thing that determines whether or not it comes over here.

[toastyovens]

wOW THIS GUY'S VOICE IS ANNOYING AS HELL!

[presidentevil]

@toastyovens i kinda like his voice :D

[devilpizza123]

i dont see anyone complaining about manga companies that fuk up manga artists work and who cant translate for shit. in katekyo hitman reborn(or just reborn by viz) the special bullet which should be called dying will bullet is changed to deathperation... sounds weird... and some fans just dont like that. some prefer zoro over zolo, kuro-chan over kurokins. vizard over visored. ok most of that is viz's fault. but they are the main company.. translate properly! leave things as japanese as possible

[cowboynemo]

@devilpizza123

Then just buy the Japanese manga. And I'm sure that you reading scanilations are definitely helping the manga-ka while cutting out the translator middleman. Get real: you're stealing and it has nothing to do with quality.

[DrunkSamurai]

@cowboynemo Copyright infringement is not the same as stealing.

[cowboynemo]

Who are you kidding? You bet your ass it's stealing. Copyright infringement is the illegal use of copyright material. Bootlegging, scanlations, and fansubs are ALL forms copyright infringement. Get your facts straight. And plus, say that for arguments sake that it isn't the same as stealing. What? Suddenly, it's alright then? It's still bad no matter how you slice it.

[DrunkSamurai]

@cowboynemo No it really isn't. Check legal definitions. Also I never said it was legal. I just know the difference between copyright infringement and stealing.

[cowboynemo]

A copyright is the exclusive rights to the author or creator of original work, including the right to copy, distribute, and adapt work

.

If I violate that by (hypothetically) scanlating, I've basically stolen that right to copy or adapt in English or any other language. I had no right to copy or translate with the author's permission. It's not about money; it's the public reproduction. Talk to any legal counsel and they'll tell you that copyright infringement is a form of stealing.

[DrunkSamurai]

@cowboynemo It is still not stealing. If somebody stole the product from the store then yes it would be stealing. Actually no they wouldn't. If a lawyer actually said that. Then they would be an idiot. Look up copyright laws. It was directly established in court that copyright infringement is not stealing.

[cowboynemo]

You're talking about theft, you idiot. That's another form of stealing. So which court case were you talking about that established copyright infringement as not a form of stealing? (Note: don't take the "idiot" thing personally or anytime I badger you. I do, however, feel you're wrong)

[DrunkSamurai]

@cowboynemo Actually I'm talking about Copyright Infringement not theft. Chek the Wikipedia Copyright Infringement section Comparison to theft. Yeah I know Wikipedia is a piece of shit but I'm too lazy to find a better source.

[xOxTEHCOOKIExOx]

to be honest i can't watch subs i just prefer dub D:

[presidentevil]

@xOxTEHCOOKIExOx me too

[EatRune]

I gotta agree with his views, although I'm glad he's not the "ADV Police." I don't feel so bad about the scans I've read in the past 'cause I've read scans of Yotsubato, Tsubasa and Full Moon before they were available in English and I've actually purchased the books FURTHER than I had initially read on the internet.

Gotta love his "phone's special feature" though. XD

[MoonPie88]

I love him X3

[Perrine234]

Great panel. We also need a panel on which is the best online anime store. ^_^

[stellvia2]

Greg Ayres does have a lot of very true statements about the state of the industry atm, but quite a bit is also embellished or only presents part of the issue. He's extremely biased, and unfortunately very rarely is willing to let you get in a comment edge-wise about the many convenient issues he leaves out that don't support his hardline stance.

(I've gone to his panel at a couple different cons to both defend and refute his statements depending on the issue)

[sweaterpuppies1]

I'd say about 90% is extremely embellished. Animu will end as we know it if American consumers don't BUY NOW!

[presidentevil]

@sweaterpuppies1 which sadly is never gonna happen! they have some excuse or another :(

[Knowltey]

I do my own panel which is similar, and it is all very true. I wish I could say he was biased, but he's not.

[wahatan]

LOL@college level translation. In most cases fansub translations are superior to the commercial stuff.

[VisionnerzBN]

bullshit

[wahatan]

Says someone who can't judge that at all. I as a native speaker can.

[VisionnerzBN]

You have no idea what other languages I know or where I'm even from. Hell, you don't know a single thing about me other than that I know English.

[wahatan]

どうやらあんたは見えないなww

まぁいいさボケはボケだから

[fairfairy1994]

true...

[mglittlerobin]

That's stupid. If the person who's getting PAID to translate the subtitles for the REAL DVD then they have to be experts in Japanese. to think fansubs are better than they are is retarded.

[Nyoronoru]

Because when someone has money in their hands they suddenly become superbly proficient, is that right?

Don't delude yourself. Skill is skill, judge it on a case by case basis.

[mglittlerobin]

What I mean, is that if you're getting money to translate, you should be good enough that you should deserve getting paid for it.

[Nyoronoru]

We can only hope.

Still, case-by-case. that's the only way.

[presidentevil]

@mglittlerobin agreed!

and im not fond of subs myself!!! :C

[presidentevil]

@wahatan can u prove it?

[wartarot]

HOUSTON, May 22, 2008— Today ADV Films, the number one producer-distributor of anime outside of Japan, announced a special

promotion with Crunchyroll, the leading destination for Asian content on the Internet, that will bring the fan-favorite series Welcome to the N.H.K. to the web.

Let the damage control begin...

[Darkspellmaster]

Here's the main issue, why do people download, for the specific reason that they want good interesting shows to watch. Why is that, becuase there's limited shows here that reach the quality that we as animation fans want. Why is that, it's becuase of the fact that networks want to cater to middle aged americans, or kids mostly. That's why there's so few good English animated shows on tv right now. Some of the best were or are being taken off due to low sales becuase they were never merchendised.

[Zelnick]

The R1 middleman (licensing companies) are out of touch and release shitty quality work. The "industry" is dying and there's nothing they can do but thrash and writhe until it's over. It's the beginning of the end and everyone saw it coming years ago except them.

[HaiiroXE]

Fuck Geneon and fuck the industry. I'll take my free stuff, thank you.

[presidentevil]

@HaiiroXE well, i just wished Geneon included Animax's English Dub of my favorite show instead of just giving it sub only, leaving Animax's English Dub to fade off to obscurity!!!

[wrongoboy15]

i wish the ab 2007 panel he did on fansubbing was put on youtube

[Jeshikun]

You mean 2008.

Greg ayres didn't do a 2007 fansubbing Panel and if he did, the 2008 one is obviously more up to date.

[wrongoboy15]

yes i meant 2008

[wartarot]

Ok, here's my question:

Ever since VHS, dub fans and US companies have been saying that they hardly make any money off subtitled anime. That people prefer dubs far more than subs.

If that's the case, then how can downloading fansubs be hurting the industry so much? It can only mean that subs do make money for the US companies after all and that a lot of dub fans are downloading as well.

Has to be it, a small group of company hating sub fanboys can't be doing all the damage by themselves.

[freakinowndnub]

If i were you i wouldn't listen to a thing Greg Ayres says, scanlations are NEVER released in pdf, fansubbers (most of them atleast) do much more acurate translations then any licensing companies. No scanlation group has EVER gotten sued for doing death note, Greg Ayres is a clueless asshole.

[VersionSix]

Wow. One misspoken fact and he's a clueless asshole! You might want to get off of your high horse, because fansubbers have admitted to adding innuendo where there was none or being amateur translators. Unless you speak Japanese, please don't try to say that you know fansubbers are more accurate than company translators (who have usually lived in Japan, as opposed to most fansub translators).

[Jih404]

The key word here is prefer. If anything is free people will come.

[wartarot]

Of course because it's free. But the dub crowd has always been,in general, critical of fansubs and the most vocal in support of domestic releases, yet they're doing a large part, if not most of the downloading.

All those years of silly dub sub debates on Usenet, and in the end hypocrisy wins.

[Jih404]

I don't think it's just the dub fans. I think that has something to do with sub fans wanting anime only released subbed and thus they don't care whether or not the voice actors are employed, etc. Besides that, you're against domestic releases? If you're an anime fan I can't see how anyone would be against domestic releases.

[wartarot]

Sure it's not just the dub fans, sub fans are downloading too. But for the damage to the industry to be so great a lot of dub fans have to be downloading.

You need to read carefully before replying.

I never said anything about personally being against domestic releases, I have no reason to be. I'm just pointing out in that in all this downloading discussion it's common knowledge why it's being done but no one has brought up the subject of who's doing it.

[Jih404]

I'd be willing to wager that more people who primarily watch subs or only subs would be downloading more anime simply because it's already in English subs.

OK. Dub fans are the most vocal about domestic releases so say ye.

Regarding the big picture. Most fans did prefer dubs back in the 90's. Now, things have clearly changed. With so many people calling for anime to be released English sub only it would appear there are more people who prefer subs.

[ShadowAlex]

They hurt because no one is getting any profit from it.

[freakinowndnub]

Scanlations are almost NEVER released in pdf, i've never seen one in pdf.

[Magazanga]

It's manga not monga

[VersionSix]

Actually, the Japanese "a" is pronounced "ah", asshole.

[Jeshikun]

Actually its pronounced "Aw" Idiot.

[Jeshikun]

Its spelled Manga but if you actually learn Japanese you'd know its Pronounced "Maw-n-gaw"

Which is exactly as Greg Ayres pronounced it.

You probably think Desu is Pronounced "dee-SOO"  too.

[VersionSix]

First off, I think it's hilarious that you needed to reply to my comment twice. Secondly, I /do/ speak Japanese; I just don't happen to focus on describing pronunciation and/or am not a damn linguist.

Thirdly? If you tell someone that there's a "w" at the end, you're going to get a really shitty southern-drawl-sounding word out of it, so you have fun going through every comment and correcting all the weeaboos about their misuse of the language.

[Jeshikun]

if you say "aw" then thats the type of A I'm trying to get the pronunciation is, also sometimes comments that are replys to each other show up not as replys so I didn't realize it was the same comment, and I was really frustrated when I was making those comments that I felt like like correcting some Thiefs.

[PataturProductions]

People can say manga however they want, there isnt really an official pronounciation.

[Jeshikun]

Except for the fact that there is.

You know, this its an actual word in an actual dictionary of two languages with a pronunciation guide.

"Maw-n-gaw" is how I'd describe pronouncing it.

[EatRune]

It's "mahn-gah" but since Japanese people mispronounce English words, we shouldn't make a big deal of English speakers mispronouncing English words.

[AkatsukiKikyou]

OH NOES HES NOT JAPANESE OR SPEAKING IN A KAWAII JAPANESE ACCENT THAT SO SO UN-KAWAII HE SAYIN IT RONG!!!11!! BAKA TEME DESU!!1111!!1111!!! LET KILL DA INDUTRY NAO!ENG RUIN EVRTING JAPN 4EVA!!11!

^

An example of the butthurt weeaboos posting here, hey if you hate the english language so much WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU TYPEING AND SPEAKING IT?! *facepalm* sometimes it makes you wonder if they will ever grow out of it or grow up.

[dribbly2]

lol this is so true. i really hate weeaboos, they give real anime fans a bad name. oh btw i gave you a thumbs down, i meant to give you a up :)

[VeritasBU10]

I can give you an educated answer:

The industry needs financial support to keep going. If anime fans don't by dvds, the company doesn't get money. They need money to pay their workers (artist, producers, etc.) to produce an anime. Without this funding, the company can't exist. Do you think you can get anime from a company that's nonexistant?

Just a thought, you know.

[darkdrag187]

welll if you like anime (or manga) if you buy it the more popular it is the bigger the pirority and the prouduction rate increases

[dribbly2]

if you like it and want it, buy it. if not then shut the fuck up and stop bitching.

[darksideorama]

Amen, brother.

[RM6371]

Yeah! Death to the industry that saved a whole bunch of Japanese studios after the finantial issues they faced in the 80's!

*shakes head* Oh the humanity.

[jimmyjoejoeshabadoo]

What is this?

How did i get here?

What is this "Monga" he keeps talking about?

[ChibiMysticGohan]

He isn't pronouncing manga wrong, Einstein.

[LanceSigmon]

Clearly, the correct way to say "manga" is "mango".

[Jeshikun]

Why'd this comment get 6 thumbs down? it was clearly a joke making fun of all the people claiming that Greg pronounced Manga wrong when really he pronounced it right

[gendoikari12765]

It's not frigging "MAYNGA"

[jimmyjoejoeshabadoo]

No, I seriously don't know what's going on.

HALP!

[Jeshikun]

Its not, its "Maw-n-gaw".

which is what Greg Ayres said if my ears are working.

[ClrcleNine]

I love you, you got that what I said was a joke. Of course Manga is not pronounced MANGO.

[jediphoenix]

The Badger King says: Hopefully this'll shed more light on just how fansubbing is hurting the industry in a big way.

Kudos to those who know who the Badger King is, and I'll see you guys at Detour '08!

[NickIzumi]

Hey, I missed this panel. Domo Arigato whoever put this up. You're really helping a cause I also feel very personal about. Kudos Greg, I'm really glad you're out there doing this.

[Megami33]

i didn't know they did that to manga that's terrible! I can't believe they ruin them like that not to mention paying for fan subs! Something is wrong here.

[somenosuke]

Thanks for uploading this. I with something else, during the pannel..so i wasn't able to see it. but now i can =]

I hope that this opens up people's eyes..It's going to be sad to see anime gone forever =( (assuming it happens)

[NasisSukiyo]

RAWR! I'm using this on Menewsha to try to get people to stop downloading. Might have inspired a girl to start bringing anime to the portugese market herself. It makes me Yay!

~Nissa

[monkeyvox]

Wow...thanks for making this available.

OMG my hair looks like I just rolled out of bed ?

[ZZalapski]

Sure thing, Greg. Hope it helps your cause in at least some small way.

[Pacchiri]

*snickers* lol it does.

I'm trying to get my anime club to set this up as one of the showings in club. Sort of an 'out of con' experiance.

[ZZalapski]

If you want, I can put what I've filmed onto a CD-ROM or a DVD and send it to you. Granted, it's not like there's a lot to be gained by going to a high-res version, but at least it'll be nicer to look at.

[Pacchiri]

Been looking for a video of Greg's Fansub panel :D

Thankies *is starting her own anti-bootleg crusade*

[ZZalapski]

No prob. Unfortunately, I didn't have enough tape to film the entire panel. I'll be better prepared next time.