Dave Rat - How to EQ a Live Sound Reinforcement System - Some Tricks

[tissot233]

I really can't thank you more for making these videos!

[GuitarOddysey]

I've listened very closely to your videos and tried to apply the concepts to a venue a work at. The sound was not good before but now we are making a series of recordings that will be released. The sound is so much better now, thank you thank you thank you for your excellent perspective!

[ab9957]

Years ago i had a guitarist playing through a Marshall half stack telling me he couldn't hear his guitar thru the monitors. I said "dude, you have a Marshall, that is your monitor!" Also, I don't mix any bands anymore where the drummer owns the PA, haha.

[readerwriter]

Great video thanks Dave, my question would be - how well does this work in a small venue where you're dealing with a lot of direct sound from the stage. I've found headphones very limited in this situation as the headphones give you a little isolation to hear what's going on in a channel but then when you have the direct sound in the room you have like a third element in the eq puzzle - or am I just looking at this wrong.

[www73171]

@readerwriter Depends on the headphones, PA volume and your ability to mentally factor out the club sound from the headphone sound. A bit of practice with some headphones that get loud and have good isolation should see positive results

[chrisose]

@readerwriter

Small rooms are not the place to worry about pulling board tapes, unless you pull them from an alternate mix source. In a small room I only use phones to check for channel problems not for the mains mix. You have to 'ride the room' and use the FOH to balance and clarify whatever is hitting you from the stage.

It can also be helpful to get the artists to work with you instead of against you. A 10% reduction in stage volume can make all the different in the world.

[QAeternus]

Wow, man. I really love your vids, not only is it great information but you also articulate this very well.

[www73171]

@QAeternus Awesome! Thank you!!

[mckennatech]

Phenomenal advice. Having a consistent reference point (headphones) every time makes so much sense. I find it's so important to eq a system using the same couple of songs or noise EVERY time as well. Without that, it's hard to stay consistent. Thanks for a great video.

[martyg565]

god, never realised how much of a sound setup noob i was untill i started watching these vids.

[tomstokn]

I have acutally tried that, and i worked very well! I also foun out that it was alot easier when I delayd and time-alinged the headset with the PA...

[www73171]

@tomstokn Time aligning does help, especially in larger venues though I have no problem either way

[Bassmann315]

dude you're a god! you engineer rhcp frign one of the biggest bands in the world, u are an audio god to me!!!!!!!

[www73171]

@Bassmann315 Ha! well, I think primarily I am just an audio nerd and the Peppers do rock!

[lesPaullyboy]

Just wondering what songs you use as test music Dave? Different genre's that are closest to the band your mixing?.. or do you have a playlist you use almost every time?

[www73171]

@lesPaullyboy It varies a bit Ween "Baby Bitch" Dub Syndicate "Sychronizer" and other songs from the One Way System album, some Ratatat. I usually do a vocal oriented song, a low frequency Bass/Kick oriented song, a guitar and midrange song and then just something I like to hear that day.

[6sebastiancol]

Dave i got a question about the live setting up, is it from the main outs to the crossover to the amps and speakers and then you as a foh engineer controll the two main line arrays L/R and just use auxes for fx and in your main inserts the venue eq and main compressor?, then the monitor engineer controlls his auxes for the wedges and internal mixes for the band membes?, sorry for bothering you

[www73171]

@6sebastiancol I insert my main EQ's and drive the PA off of Matrixes so I can PFL pre and post EQ as well as have a post EQ gain control. I compress the groups and do not use L/R compression, only compression after L/R is the system limiters

[www73171]

@6sebastiancol exactly

[StradBandoMan]

LOVE your use of the word "Correct" in regards to the sound. Speakin' my language!

[www73171]

@StradBandoMan Cool cool, appreciate the positive comment!!

[djlyngo]

I'm kuwait trying to make music only using headphones. This is my only option. What can I do to get the very best sound with out studio monitors? Can I use EQ correction for my head phones for the flatest response possible?

LOVE YOUR VIDEOS

[kibovolks]

Very very very informative. thanks a lot! made a whole lot of sense.

[Buhzie15]

i wanna work in live sound so bad!

[CDeckner]

After watching this very informative video I wondered to myself how or if it could be applied on the monitors end of the snake. So to satisfy my curiosity I recreated the method with my wedges at a venue I work in. We have Radian Micro 12's and 15's as well as Rat fills. After tuning the wedges and mixing a show using the method I found that it works in mons quite well and I can get my wedges louder without them wanting to run away on me.

[www73171]

@CDeckner That is really cool!

[steven10475]

Wow! This method make so much sense to me. I love it & I'll apply it to my set up jobs.

Thanks.

[zoundtech]

@ww73171 thanks! I'll check that out!

[lenoxx89]

Hello! I have a question about the pink noise thingy, you have an omni mic, a spectrum analyzer, but doesn't the mic and the sound card (ex Mbox2) have a sort of characteristic that alters the sound?

[www73171]

@lenoxx89 Theoretically, yes. Though if set up correctly the alteration of the sound by the hardware should be negligible compared to the info it provides. More important is to make sure that there is no issues like distortion, noise, or other aspect t hat pollutes the readings. It is wise to actually listen to the the RTA mic to assure that what it is 'hearing' is clear and not tainted.

[npgdrums]

Hey Dave, could you tell us all what the chain is after your sound console for a large line array system, would it be console to lake processor to amps, or would it be board to amps with interanal processing to speakers???

[www73171]

@npgdrums I have had numerous issues with sound vendors adding processing to the signal chain that alters the sound of the system in a negative way. My preferred signal chain is analog L/R console insert>1/3 oct>parametric>L/R ins ret & L/R outs direct to processed amps. My rule of thumb based on verified audible experimentation is "convert to digital and back to analog never more than once." or "once the signal converts to digital, it stays digital till it hits the analog power side of the amps

[npgdrums]

@www73171 Do you use a BSS 1/3 octave eq??? I recently did a gig with the Dolby Lake stuff but it was already "set" so I didnt mess with it too much. I have noticed the prince setup and it had the dolby lake eq on the k1 system i think?? Do you use the lab gruppen with lake processors inside Dave??

[arthurkitchen]

I sure hope people on here appreciate you making these videos as you are looked at as a god in the live sound world! Thanks Dave!

[www73171]

@arthurkitchen Thank you Arthur!

[zoundtech]

@www73171 do you have a favorite song that you usually play when you're eq'ing?

[www73171]

@zoundtech Dub syndicate "synchronizer" for low end and overall tone and Amy Irving "why don't you do right?'" for vocals and smoothness.

[randyswift]

I run sound at my church and was told i had to zero out the board after every service is that true?

[www73171]

@randyswift Well, it's only true if they make you do it. I never Zero my board while on tour or when mixing the same or similar bands on the same console. I always zero the board when it loads into a new show or setup.

If you are the only one on the console, I would set the board how you wish and leave it. If you have other engineers working on it, you may be able to find a "working zero" where you set all the knobs to logical working positions that are at or close to what you will need.

[glglg251]

thnaks man, great vids

[gunnyranger2]

Dave, as far as the channel EQ and the house eq,which do you set first, the house w/ a cd, or what?

And I keep having Singers say that the high end in their monitor is fine for a while and then is lacking, when the only thing I've touched is the channel strip eg,in pre mode?

Thanks!

[Neuumann]

@gunnyranger2 Sounds to me like it's on their end... their ears are becoming fatigued. Vocalists (especially in small venues) will complain that "they can't hear" their vox or guitar after awhile. That's because of the combined volume of the monitors, amps and drums are killing the high freqs in their ears. At sound check, I roll off the highs on the monitors. Then bring them up when they start complaining...sneaky, but it works for me...

[gunnyranger2]

Dave, I've played in bands for 25 Yrs, but about 6 Months ago ANOTHER band broke up and I decided since I [the Drummer] owned the P.A. that I'd just start my own sound Co. being tired of the "Musician thing" but still loving music.Before this I hadn't done a lot, as far as running sound,but I've had a lot of support from other, local Techs.My question is, since I've only been doing sound a short time, should I buy a complicated [so they say] digi mixer, or stick w/ analog for a while longer?

[www73171]

@gunnyranger2 keep it simple till you are well versed. otherwise you are just making things tough. I personally avoid digital mixers unless the application demands it.

[gunnyranger2]

@www73171 Thanks for taking the Time Dave, your video's have been a GREAT help to me!

[boogerracing]

Great tips!

[algiasphere]

Some good tricks here, I'll definitely start using some of them. Thanks for doing this vids!

[brainz11203]

when you EQ a system do you do it with the subwooffer on?

[www73171]

@brainz11203 I start without the subs and then add them in

[kravesound]

Great advice Dave, only thing that I've found is that in a club setting the console recordings come out drum and vocal heavy, due to the over kill on volume from some bass and guitar players. I agree that the EQ should be right it's just a gain problem.

[www73171]

@kravesound To solve Vocal/Drum Heavy issue, I either run the PA off of a matrix with Vocals and drums boosted a bit or run the recording off of a matrix with non vocal/drums instruments boosted. This solves the level issues while allowing an EQ reference recording to exist.

[HAGOSLORD]

Lots of good, sensible ideas and methods in there. Well done. HAGOS

[www73171]

@HAGOSLORD Awesome, thank you!

[StuballScramble]

I have a question about this method - due to the Fletcher Munsen effects, would you not have to have the CD playing loud through the mains to EQ it properly? In a festival intro music is never as loud as the bands. How should this be factored in? Thanks!

[www73171]

@StuballScramble If you have the volume of your headphones sounding about the same volume of the system when you EQ, that flectcher munson aspect automatically factors itself out. As far as having a sound system that is linear versus one that tries to incorporate loudness compensation, that is not an EQ thing.

[DSTaylor69]

Great Videos Dave... You have won over a new fan... I love the headphone Ideal... Makes you use your own ears not a piece of equipment... Can you do a post on how to eq monitors??

[www73171]

@DSTaylor69 Thank you! I will try and get more videos up soon. Will put mon EQ on the list and see if I can come up with an interesting angle on that.

[jordibelial]

great tips Dave,

although i must add that this method is not very suited for smaller venues where the stage sound is a big part of your mix and things like cymbals and cranked up guitar amps can really ruin the balance of your overall mix.

EQing the room using headphones is a brilliant idea though, i am so going to try that thnx

[www73171]

@myass247 Exactly the same applies :)

[bolofofis]

An Yamaha PM1000 ?

[www73171]

@bolofofis That is a Tangent 1202a

[BrandenLaCour]

You are awesome. Your tips really do help. keep it up dave, the puzzle pieces are coming together quickly as a new sound guy myself

[www73171]

@BrandenLaCour Thank You!

[Medium0Rare]

very well done. this helps me a lot. I guess I knew a lot of it before watching the video, but it always helps having someone with experience tell you their tricks and help you along.

thanks a ton

[www73171]

@Medium0Rare Thank you!

[Obergoofy]

Hi Dave,

I follow your blog and since you are making video's it's even greater.

Would it be possible to explain levels from the desk to a controller to the amps?

Propper gainstricture is important! Right!?

*confused* dBV dBu dBFS ..setting limiters in controller..protect equipment ;-)

On my crappy 01V96V2 the master meter shows dBFS !?. So wenn the LED-bar shows -20 the output is at +4 dBu.

Maybe you can cover some of the subjects?

Kind regards from Vienna-Austria

[MrTwostone]

which eq do you start with ? room first , then channel strip.

your video is confusing. According to you looks like you start with channel strip eq first then room. Isn't room eq first then channel eq strip for fine tweaking.

[www73171]

@MrTwostone It makes no difference which you start with. I EQ the room to Pink noise, a familiar CD and check with my voice.

I EQ the instruments in my headphones or to the already EQ'ed room and then compare back and forth.

Sometimes like at a festival, I EQ the channels first to headphones while we line check and the band before mine is playing and then EQ the PA to CD during set change.

Sometimes while on tour I EQ the room first while the stage is being setup.

[MrTwostone]

@www73171

Thanks Dave for the quick reply. I Don't have a pink noise thingy but have a CD player with lots of CD's of music I been listening to for years. I mix off the stage which is not a easy task but I usually tune the PA with a CD then ask then with a wireless go out into the listening zone and tweak the channel eq. Just wanna make sure if I was doing it right.

[www73171]

@MrTwostone you can download a free RTA "pink noise thingy" for your laptop and then you will just need an omni mic. Just google search for "real Time analyzer free download" and you may need to do some sifting but there are a few freeware versions and tons of fairly inexpensive ones.

[MrTwostone]

@www73171

Thanks but what is a RTA ?

[www73171]

@MrTwostone 

[www73171]

@www73171 A RTA is a real time analyzer that allows you to "see the volume levels of a multitude of frequency bands in the audio spectrum

[krudco2001]

I like this, but have a question. Couldn't you after listening to a cd and making it sound good through your headphones. Could you then play the adjusted cd into a Smaart or something similiar and save the plot, I hope I am making my point clear.

Love your videos

[www73171]

@krudco2001 yes, you can tie a measurement method into the consistency and reference point method I describe. I go into this further in the "when Hearing Starts to Drift" article. There is a link on Daverat.com

[mogwix]

Alright, so given the same band, same mics, same instruments, you can have same channel EQ from night to night.

When you drop into a festival, you make those same EQ moves and only change the system EQ? Very cool. Do you do something similar for the channel gain and levels? Do you rough in a familiar mix, then make adjustments as the band fires up?

[www73171]

@mogwix I wrote an article a that expands upon the subject a bit called "When Hearing Starts to Drift." There is a link on daverat.com

[ManitouPL]

I can't wait to hear your work on new RHCP album. Thanks for your videos.

[elmatula]

Why didn't I watch this video before last night? Had a rough venue and PA to EQ. Thanks for the info Dave.

[UnKsReD]

very interesting !

[PacerX01]

awesome man! Thanks so much for taking the time to make these.I learned live sound on the fly,cause I was the only one willing to learn and run the sound systems for my friends lol. But these keep me on the right path and instill some confidence,thanks again!

[joevaq71]

Absolutely digging these tutorials, Dave. Keep it up and thanks!!

[DJBlondfox]

Another amazingly simple video, these really keep me in check with what I know :3

[clinton22]

So right and so simple , your Amazing Dave !

[Xperimento56]

You are a genius my friend thanks for the videos!!!

[MikeLombardoMusic]

This makes a lot of sense Dave. Thanks!

I saw some tour photos of Dolby Lake processors in racks. Are these an example of the system processors you spoke of?

[theberndog]

@MikeLombardoMusic yeah, i would love to see your take on the Dolby Lake Dave... Thanks again so much for making these videos, they are good refreshers/learning tools!

[www73171]

@MikeLombardoMusic Yes, the Lakes can be used as system processors.