The reason I am a sceptic is because I am an explorer of truth...And it annoys me that there are so many people in the world who spread simple lies about reality. It is essential for people to look at all sides of an arguement and find out which one can provide veryfiable facts...empiricle evidence...The reality of the universe. Surely that is a valid campaign. It upsets me that people can claim point blank falsehoods as thruth, without providing a scrap of evidence.
While that is a very nice position, do you have the ability to discern a lie from reality, fact from fiction? Is your knowledge that you base your judgments on, built up or simply taken from others? I find most people don't speak from an educated background on subjects of religion.
Indeed. I try to stay calm during debates, using any rhetorical method to drive home a spark of wisdom. Then, I take a sip of scotch and all is ruined. ;(
Well, Todd, i agree about being polite but, all the critism it's about being free to say what you think, i have a few members in my family that are christians, and it is really anoying to hear them out about God, the problem is they can say whatever they want but we cannot becausse it is blasfemy to them, but seriously i don't give a shit, i have as much right as them to speak my mind
But if some of us Atheists occasionally take an unseemly degree of pleasure in baiting the religious Believers, I think, considering what they've done to us in the past, that we can probably be forgiven for it.
We often call them fucking morons; they used to burn us at the stake!
You read about all the scientists and free-thinkers who were executed by these 'people of faith', and tell us we're bad for offending their sensibilities?
> But if some of us Atheists occasionally take an unseemly degree of pleasure in baiting the religious ...
Well, I never say how I think skeptics *should* behave—my only point was about what I see as the most productive way to go about getting theists to change their minds (for those skeptics who are interested in that particular goal!).
> considering what they've done to us in the past, that we can probably be forgiven for it. We often call them fucking morons; they used to burn us at the stake!
True enough, but I've personally never been threatened with being burned at the stake, and none of the Christian proselytizers I've known were ever in a position to do such a thing (even if they would like to!).
So I can't justify any personal righteousness ... that would be kind of like a Jewish child today feeling he had a "right" to persecute a German child today because of past evils inflicted by, and upon, past ancestors.
And you're right- we have no more right to persecute, or wish to persecute, the Christians than they had to when they could.
But make no mistake: there's a great many of those 'people of faith' who would gladly burn us at the stake TODAY if they had the political power they once enjoyed.
The inherent evil of religion is the carte blanche it gives it's Believers to commit ANY atrocity in it's name.
Don't be fooled by any of these people's current apparent 'piety'.
> But make no mistake: there's a great many of those 'people of faith' who would gladly burn us at the stake TODAY if they had the political power they once enjoyed.
Agreed—and I've known several who are probably regretting they missed out on those good ole days!
This is still by far my favorite video created by you. However, it is just one of method from freeing minds. As you said anger can motivate. I rode my anger and pain and it motivated me to learn and search for the answers instead of just accepting those of others. It's also one of many sources for creative release. The method in the book may make them feel betrayed by you or seek vengeance to those that never "loved" them. Additionally, those who respect strength above may think you're weak.
> However, it is just one of method from freeing minds.
Agreed. When Dawkins was asked to comment on the less combative approach of Daniel Dennett, Dawkins replied something to the effect of "Well, that's his approach, not mine. It's sort of like 'good cop, bad cop'—and there's a time and place for both."
Regarding your point about how Christians should proselytise:
Hebrews 8 says that the Lord no longer wishes that any person should proselytise, as he intends to form a new covenant, whereby he will write his will on his people's minds and hearts.
Thus, proselytisation goes against the "will of the Lord."
Yeah, but the New Testament I'm sure has verses that tell them to start again. Doesn't matter anyhow, debating via reason is a lost cause. If they could be reasoned from the peculiarity of their book, they'd already have lost their faith.
I did use the Atheist Challenge thing to get rid of missionaries. I explained I had denied the holy spirit, so I was already lost. They were irritated to say the least, but they did leave me alone.
Get them to let go of the certainty they hold in reference to these topics.
As soon as you say "I'm right, and that's the end of the discussion", you need to start at the start, 'cause you've reached a level of arrogance which none of us accept.
Does it make me a horrible person if I say I would tell them about the asteroid, and if they didn't believe me they could watch my ass as I leave them behind? I don't think it does.
You convince, I think, more by your actions than with your words.
I don't care if people believe. That is their right as it is mine to *not* believe. I do care when people LIE. I really just hate that. To me it shows you do not have enough *faith* to stick with the truth and convince people with that.
Sorry if my english is not perfect, maybe I should have written "wanted" instead of "expected". That is: Why should'nt Atheists, Agnostics, Brights, Freethinkers, Humanists, Skeptics be open minded too? Don't they have anything to learn from theists?
Your english is fine its the internet noone in thier right mind will nitpick at that, the issue that im seeing is that neither side, theist or any branch of anti-theism are open minded, we are both trying to save each other from ourselves, theists say follow this path or X and Y consequences follow, whereas antitheists say there is no divinity or path to follow and they will try and keep you from wasting your time. So really we are all at fault here because neither side can leave the other alone
I really liked the second part of the video where you talked about persuation techniques. I've been wanting to learn more about it, because my attempts at "converting" people from religions hasn't gone very well yet even when I can respond to their arguments and prove that I'm right.
Different proselytizers have different motives for their preaching. Our method of argumentation should be adjusted accordingly.
Many use their faith as a shield against uncomfortable thoughts, many use their doctrine as an emotional club intended to beat us into submission through dread of "the Lord". Many see politeness as a form of spiritual weakness which merely spurs them on to further and more drastic intellectual atrocities.
I don't mind showing them that I am proud of my intellect.
> and nice idea having the background music! Informative and soothing at the same time
The music is something Ffreethinker inserted (from 5:42 to 8:54, he used my piano version of Korn's "Freak on a Leash"), so I can't claim credit, but glad you liked it!
I used to be a christian, and the arguments of atheists changed my mind. It helps that I've always been an inquisitive person who likes to examine reality. It was the wish to oppose the people who criticized me that drove me to keep debating and debating until I had read so much that made so much sense that I couldn't deny it any more. I was worshiping a figment of my imagination. Now I'm free.
I like the debates and I think they have long-term effects.I have no desire to convert Theist...I want them to respect mine and others choices and keep their dogma out of my government.
Marginalization is the key and if that means a few hurt feelings then oh well. If they can dish it out then they better start being prepared to take it cuz others like me are tired of this nonsense demanding undeserved credibility. Its time for us as a species to move on.
"When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child,
I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things."
My only wish is... to transform friends of God into friends of man, believers into thinkers, devotees of prayer into devotees of work, candidates for the hereafter into students of the world, Christians who, by their own procession and admission, are "half animal, half angel" into persons, into whole persons. -- Ludwig Feuerbach (Lectures on the Essence of Religion)
This was pretty lame... full of PC bullshit and lets all be friends crap. Christian apologists are the worst and deserve no praise at all for their perversions of logic, nuance of interpretation, and circular reasoning. Its a willful form of intellectual treason that should not be encouraged. What type of advise is this guy giving?? We should just placate to the religious and maybe they'll one day change their minds and stop trying to dictate to others? Dream on!
The guy is trying to explain that "hostility" is not the way to have people change their beliefs.
It follows through in his book, "A Dialogue between a Christian Apologetic"...the two parties agree on basic conditions, and they get father than most people on Youtube do in a simple discussion.
[Needless to say that the end result is just that they both see each other as more illogical. The apologist thinks that he made a valid case for the Bible and the atheist sees the Bible as the others.]
They get farther? How so if they both end up in the same place as you say?.... and further more whether or not the apologist "feels" he made a valid case for the bible doesn't exactly qualify the validity of what is still absolute nonsense. I argue that this view is even more unproductive/pointless because you end up no where as you say. Hostility has a place when faced with bold face lies and placating to such nonsense as to give them legitimacy in my opinion is morally wrong.
It's that they see more on the same level than before.
But at the end of it all, the Apologetic is still firm in his belief of the Bible as the Word of God. And the Atheist still has yet to see what differentiates the Bible from the Quran or Torah outside of the language and names.
It's...they both see more on the other's level if they have the chance to see that the other person sees on their level.
[Imagine a non-apologetic in a similar situation. He would probably become atheistic]
That rare case is totally the exception rather than the rule. And still leaves the issues unresolved even though both are left with a more fuzzy warm feeling for one another... Whenever i run across an apologist as such i leave with an ever worse taste in my mouth knowing that they are going to keep on going around promoting this intellectual treason thinking they are ordained by god to preach to others... and use it to bully those who are uninformed or uneducated enough to know better.
I never said anything in this video to the effect of "here's how we in the skeptic community should behave"—I acknowledge that there's such a variety of reasons for challenging theism's claims, that there's no ONE way people "should" respond (and because of this variety, we can hardly even call ourselves "a community").
When dealing with creationists who use lies and political power to try to teach lies to children, then, well, the approach of "Here are the facts: if you don't accept them you're an idiot" may be the only recourse.
But when dealing with theists who are sincere in their concerns, responding with hostility shifts the focus away from the actual issues. And dealing with the actual issues is where a change of beliefs at least has the *possibility* of occurring.
When it comes to die-hard fundamentalists, okay, probably nothing can pierce their armor of delusion, & I usually don't even try.
But when it comes to those theists who already have their own seeds of doubt, & are already feeling the pains of cognitive dissonance, then focusing solely on reasons for belief / disbelief (& bypassing emotionally-charged accusations like "how could you be so idiotically gullible to believe this crap?") is, I think, the best way to have an influence.
> We should just placate to the religious and maybe they'll one day change their minds and stop trying to dictate to others? Dream on!
The 80 videos on my channel do not "placate to the religious." Rather, my videos are mainly centered on how to talk to proselytizers (pamphlet-passers, concerned family members who are worried about your future in hell, etc.): those who believe the Bible is from God, and all the other religions were just made up by people.
Very briefly, my approach involves asking them how I can "know" all the other world religions were just made up by people, and I try to get the Christians to spell out the telltale signs of the human authorship of foreign faiths by three criteria: (a) they're pieced together from pre-existing religions, (b) their holy laws are often based on irrational prejudices and erroneous conclusions about cause and effect, and
(c) their stories contain inaccurate and earth-bound descriptions of the universe---stars that are tiny, a moon that shines its own light, a sun that orbits a flat and stationary earth, etc.
With those premises established, the conversation then turns to examining the Bible by the same light held up to non-Christian religions (and the bible, of course, contains every one of those same telltale signs of human authorship).
Use of this approach means I don't use my own arguments against the Christian; rather, the proselytizer is forced to defend himself against his own accusations: his own description of a religion created not by an Almighty Architect of the Universe, but by the flawed mind of man. (My video series "Using the Socratic Method with Christian Proselytizers" has the details.)
> [Apologists] use [their intellectual treason] to bully those who are too uneducated enough to know better
In my younger years, I felt the bullying effects of proselytizers as well—and at the time, my arguments were so wildly disorganized that I was always left frustrated with the feeling that I was "right" but too inarticulate to win any points. This is what led me to write my book, Dialogue with a Christian Proselytizer, and make my YouTube videos to promote it.
The Christian Apologists don't want the Scientologists trying to save them from their engrams and body thetans... I think they ought to give non-believers in souls the same consideration they want Scientologists to give them.
I want theists to know that I feel the same way about religion that religionists feel about Scientology or other superstitions.
I think all magical thinking is as harmful as the magical thinking the theist doesn't "believe in".
My recent "debate" with a "believer" (not exactly a skeptic from what we have done, though almost as intellectually open as one) had us examining other mythic/non-existant beings and why they do or do not exist.
Unfortunately he avoids the point every time I bring it up...and goes to insulting me for using logic (Literally he insulted me for being a "robot" and a "zombie" because I used logic against him)...
then again I did state that his "low level of logic represents low intelligence"...
He seems to think that I have a full scare-crow field in my eye and cobwebs in my bell-fry...
Which is odd when HIS beliefs are based on "there is no evidence that it doesn't exist, so I believe it exists"...yet somehow the Tooth Fairy doesn't exist to him...
I'm humble towards theists when their humble towards me. I've took the offensive approach and it never gets anyone anywhere. So when I get into a discussion with a rude Christian I ignore them and walk away from the discussion.
If I know that your soul is in danger, yes, I'd like to warn you about it. I want you to be able to save yourself.
But, I have to be able to convince you logically why I think it's true. I can't just go around telling people that they need to be saved just "because".
And IF I do have enough evidence to show that they are in danger and they still won't listen, then it must be fate. Maybe they deserve it.
If I knew your soul (ki, mana, chakra or whatever) was in danger that was not me I would kick the ass of the threatening supernatural force and I would celebrate my victory feasting on your soul!
> omg that song in the background, I just know I heard it from somewhere. I can't remember from where
Ffreethinker inserted two different background songs: I don't know the first one, but from 5:42 to 8:54 it's my piano version of Korn's "Freak on a Leash." (That video is posted on my "ToddGates" channel, which I reserve for my piano & blues harp videos.)
Wow amazing!!! too bad we have to laboriously get down on their level instead of pointing out bs when we see it.
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mithnibrige 1 year ago
2:50 - 3:10 - guilty
I slam both the Christian and atheist proselytizers.
6:40 - 6:55 is the reason why.
it's the emotional logic of "its just so obvious" that is based on fear.
I've tried pathology logic to con someone into thinking my way.
the whole atheist vrs Christian B.S. isn't about truth - its about appearance.
so i slam the idiots with facts not only to show off my intellect but to show that others can see them for what they are.
a threat to intellect and understanding.
AfterFauve001 1 year ago
Does anyone know what score was in the background in the beginning? It sounds like it was from the video game Oblivion.
diomedes39 2 years ago
Todd is so under subscribed, He is really good, I recommend his videos!
ceezmad1 2 years ago 4
thoughtful and well-presented.
FractalHelix777 2 years ago
The reason I am a sceptic is because I am an explorer of truth...And it annoys me that there are so many people in the world who spread simple lies about reality. It is essential for people to look at all sides of an arguement and find out which one can provide veryfiable facts...empiricle evidence...The reality of the universe. Surely that is a valid campaign. It upsets me that people can claim point blank falsehoods as thruth, without providing a scrap of evidence.
perydwyn 2 years ago
While that is a very nice position, do you have the ability to discern a lie from reality, fact from fiction? Is your knowledge that you base your judgments on, built up or simply taken from others? I find most people don't speak from an educated background on subjects of religion.
Uhlbelk 2 years ago
Good well balanced presentation which I can put to use in a non-religious argument context. First video I have watched and so will be watching more.
gedgetips 2 years ago
Indeed. I try to stay calm during debates, using any rhetorical method to drive home a spark of wisdom. Then, I take a sip of scotch and all is ruined. ;(
GnosticAtheist 2 years ago 4
Skepticism: saving the future from the stupidity of the past.
I don't care to change the minds of theists, it will never happen. I just want the kids to grow up knowing its bunk.
slicpilot 2 years ago
excellent! I am subscribing asap to this man's channel....thank you for the post!!!
practicalmagic9 2 years ago
is that music in the background from TES IV: Oblivion?
garshfunkle 2 years ago
You made me want to read Carnegie.
DrakeDun 2 years ago
"how to win friends" is an excellent book. very rich with advice and quite good.
practicalmagic9 2 years ago
Well, Todd, i agree about being polite but, all the critism it's about being free to say what you think, i have a few members in my family that are christians, and it is really anoying to hear them out about God, the problem is they can say whatever they want but we cannot becausse it is blasfemy to them, but seriously i don't give a shit, i have as much right as them to speak my mind
TenkuNoWind 2 years ago 2
Well said, Todd.
But if some of us Atheists occasionally take an unseemly degree of pleasure in baiting the religious Believers, I think, considering what they've done to us in the past, that we can probably be forgiven for it.
We often call them fucking morons; they used to burn us at the stake!
You read about all the scientists and free-thinkers who were executed by these 'people of faith', and tell us we're bad for offending their sensibilities?
StevoDog21 2 years ago
1 of 3:
> Well said, Todd.
Thanks!
> But if some of us Atheists occasionally take an unseemly degree of pleasure in baiting the religious ...
Well, I never say how I think skeptics *should* behave—my only point was about what I see as the most productive way to go about getting theists to change their minds (for those skeptics who are interested in that particular goal!).
ToddAllenGates 2 years ago
2 of 3:
> considering what they've done to us in the past, that we can probably be forgiven for it. We often call them fucking morons; they used to burn us at the stake!
True enough, but I've personally never been threatened with being burned at the stake, and none of the Christian proselytizers I've known were ever in a position to do such a thing (even if they would like to!).
ToddAllenGates 2 years ago
3 of 3:
So I can't justify any personal righteousness ... that would be kind of like a Jewish child today feeling he had a "right" to persecute a German child today because of past evils inflicted by, and upon, past ancestors.
ToddAllenGates 2 years ago
Understood, Todd.
And you're right- we have no more right to persecute, or wish to persecute, the Christians than they had to when they could.
But make no mistake: there's a great many of those 'people of faith' who would gladly burn us at the stake TODAY if they had the political power they once enjoyed.
The inherent evil of religion is the carte blanche it gives it's Believers to commit ANY atrocity in it's name.
Don't be fooled by any of these people's current apparent 'piety'.
StevoDog21 2 years ago 2
> But make no mistake: there's a great many of those 'people of faith' who would gladly burn us at the stake TODAY if they had the political power they once enjoyed.
Agreed—and I've known several who are probably regretting they missed out on those good ole days!
ToddAllenGates 2 years ago 7
This is still by far my favorite video created by you. However, it is just one of method from freeing minds. As you said anger can motivate. I rode my anger and pain and it motivated me to learn and search for the answers instead of just accepting those of others. It's also one of many sources for creative release. The method in the book may make them feel betrayed by you or seek vengeance to those that never "loved" them. Additionally, those who respect strength above may think you're weak.
Mephistophilus 2 years ago
> However, it is just one of method from freeing minds.
Agreed. When Dawkins was asked to comment on the less combative approach of Daniel Dennett, Dawkins replied something to the effect of "Well, that's his approach, not mine. It's sort of like 'good cop, bad cop'—and there's a time and place for both."
ToddAllenGates 2 years ago
PS I apologize for the horrible grammar and typos. I'm mufti-tasking poorly today.
Mephistophilus 2 years ago
Great point, Todd!
DefenderOfReason 2 years ago
thanks,great video.Are you a an atheist ?
naybobdenod 2 years ago
> great video.
Thanks!
> Are you an atheist?
Yes (my atheism may not be emphasized in this video, but it is in many of my others).
ToddAllenGates 2 years ago
Yeah man...great points. That is an outstanding book!
Graffight 2 years ago
Regarding your point about how Christians should proselytise:
Hebrews 8 says that the Lord no longer wishes that any person should proselytise, as he intends to form a new covenant, whereby he will write his will on his people's minds and hearts.
Thus, proselytisation goes against the "will of the Lord."
TheFrozenFire89 2 years ago
Yeah, but the New Testament I'm sure has verses that tell them to start again. Doesn't matter anyhow, debating via reason is a lost cause. If they could be reasoned from the peculiarity of their book, they'd already have lost their faith.
I did use the Atheist Challenge thing to get rid of missionaries. I explained I had denied the holy spirit, so I was already lost. They were irritated to say the least, but they did leave me alone.
See, the internet really does make lives better.
10kzebra 2 years ago 2
Get them to let go of the certainty they hold in reference to these topics.
As soon as you say "I'm right, and that's the end of the discussion", you need to start at the start, 'cause you've reached a level of arrogance which none of us accept.
How's that for a common cause?
steveb0503 2 years ago
Christianity should be treated like a mental disorder.
Anybody that has an invisible freind and is over the age of seven, is clearly AT LEAST a little crazy.
judoyodan 2 years ago 11
true
safewaysecurity 2 years ago
Background music up until 5:30, is it from the Mafia game? Sounds familiar. Anyone???
franklindelanobluth0 2 years ago
Very interesting video. A different way to look at the same situation. humans.... haha ;)
JulsJunior 2 years ago
I would also think it is possible for any individual skeptic to want to have many of those purposes at one time or another.
Chaotischesneutrales 2 years ago
Does it make me a horrible person if I say I would tell them about the asteroid, and if they didn't believe me they could watch my ass as I leave them behind? I don't think it does.
You convince, I think, more by your actions than with your words.
I don't care if people believe. That is their right as it is mine to *not* believe. I do care when people LIE. I really just hate that. To me it shows you do not have enough *faith* to stick with the truth and convince people with that.
cherrymiss72 2 years ago
the asteroid must be proven.
loturos 2 years ago
Its invisible. You must have faith in the asteroid!
Spanky00Cheeks 2 years ago
great music.....zzzzzzzzzzzzz
yellow2856 2 years ago 2
FFreeThinker: "A Community for Atheists, Agnostics, Brights, Freethinkers, Humanists, Skeptics, and open minded Theists."
Why are theists the only one who are expected to be open minded?
Cimbic1dae 2 years ago
read your comment again, and shut up.
smartarse001 2 years ago
Sorry if my english is not perfect, maybe I should have written "wanted" instead of "expected". That is: Why should'nt Atheists, Agnostics, Brights, Freethinkers, Humanists, Skeptics be open minded too? Don't they have anything to learn from theists?
Cimbic1dae 2 years ago
skeptics and skeptic off shoots are not open minded, but for the means of the community in question it requires the theists to be open minded.
Good closing question also, thumbs up.
ArchhereticK 2 years ago
Your english is fine its the internet noone in thier right mind will nitpick at that, the issue that im seeing is that neither side, theist or any branch of anti-theism are open minded, we are both trying to save each other from ourselves, theists say follow this path or X and Y consequences follow, whereas antitheists say there is no divinity or path to follow and they will try and keep you from wasting your time. So really we are all at fault here because neither side can leave the other alone
dust594 2 years ago 2
its automatically expected from the others.
loturos 2 years ago
Personal bias of the channel's creator.
badboyfrvr 2 years ago
finally someone that uses the right word; "skeptic" instead of atheist
tekhiun 2 years ago 3
Oh wait...was I not supposed reveal that?
forger42 2 years ago
No, we apparently DO have a role model. It's the Devil! According to certain creationists at least ;)
forger42 2 years ago
What is the music? reminds me of tomb raider, lovely tune.
O2BSoLucky 2 years ago 2
I was curious about that too.
Also reminds me of the music in Guild Wars.
Can anyone identify it?
PsykoPatrik 2 years ago
I really liked the second part of the video where you talked about persuation techniques. I've been wanting to learn more about it, because my attempts at "converting" people from religions hasn't gone very well yet even when I can respond to their arguments and prove that I'm right.
Imjustaguy123 2 years ago
Different proselytizers have different motives for their preaching. Our method of argumentation should be adjusted accordingly.
Many use their faith as a shield against uncomfortable thoughts, many use their doctrine as an emotional club intended to beat us into submission through dread of "the Lord". Many see politeness as a form of spiritual weakness which merely spurs them on to further and more drastic intellectual atrocities.
I don't mind showing them that I am proud of my intellect.
pirbird14 2 years ago
great video Todd...and nice idea having the background music! Informative and soothing at the same time.
kalsolarUK 2 years ago
> great video Todd
Thanks Kal!
> and nice idea having the background music! Informative and soothing at the same time
The music is something Ffreethinker inserted (from 5:42 to 8:54, he used my piano version of Korn's "Freak on a Leash"), so I can't claim credit, but glad you liked it!
ToddAllenGates 2 years ago
yes, I forgot that I wasn't actually watching it on your own channel when I posted that. It works for me anyway! lol.
kalsolarUK 2 years ago
Great clip, but why the background music?
fahim113 2 years ago
Beautiful, the Socratic method is.
newexperiment 2 years ago
christian apologist = Liars for cult psychotics
GodKillerAtheist 2 years ago 2
Im reading Dale Carnegie atm. Its a cool book.
freethinker1990 2 years ago
Todd is articulate, well spoken, mellow and awesome.
Hereticbooks 2 years ago 2
*opression*
freethinker1990 2 years ago
Some eco-feminists are spiritual, but I think religion has a history of justifying all kinds of religion.
freethinker1990 2 years ago
I used to be a christian, and the arguments of atheists changed my mind. It helps that I've always been an inquisitive person who likes to examine reality. It was the wish to oppose the people who criticized me that drove me to keep debating and debating until I had read so much that made so much sense that I couldn't deny it any more. I was worshiping a figment of my imagination. Now I'm free.
PluralOfEverything 2 years ago 18
congrats
avecesdeunhilo 2 years ago 2
I like the debates and I think they have long-term effects.I have no desire to convert Theist...I want them to respect mine and others choices and keep their dogma out of my government.
Thereminator101 2 years ago 5
Whats the repeating music in the background?
demonprince9 2 years ago
Marginalization is the key and if that means a few hurt feelings then oh well. If they can dish it out then they better start being prepared to take it cuz others like me are tired of this nonsense demanding undeserved credibility. Its time for us as a species to move on.
"When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child,
I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things."
- Bible - 1 Corinthians 13:11
pomeroy82 2 years ago
My only wish is... to transform friends of God into friends of man, believers into thinkers, devotees of prayer into devotees of work, candidates for the hereafter into students of the world, Christians who, by their own procession and admission, are "half animal, half angel" into persons, into whole persons. -- Ludwig Feuerbach (Lectures on the Essence of Religion)
KasparHauser4 2 years ago 3
This was pretty lame... full of PC bullshit and lets all be friends crap. Christian apologists are the worst and deserve no praise at all for their perversions of logic, nuance of interpretation, and circular reasoning. Its a willful form of intellectual treason that should not be encouraged. What type of advise is this guy giving?? We should just placate to the religious and maybe they'll one day change their minds and stop trying to dictate to others? Dream on!
pomeroy82 2 years ago
The guy is trying to explain that "hostility" is not the way to have people change their beliefs.
It follows through in his book, "A Dialogue between a Christian Apologetic"...the two parties agree on basic conditions, and they get father than most people on Youtube do in a simple discussion.
[Needless to say that the end result is just that they both see each other as more illogical. The apologist thinks that he made a valid case for the Bible and the atheist sees the Bible as the others.]
onijester56 2 years ago
They get farther? How so if they both end up in the same place as you say?.... and further more whether or not the apologist "feels" he made a valid case for the bible doesn't exactly qualify the validity of what is still absolute nonsense. I argue that this view is even more unproductive/pointless because you end up no where as you say. Hostility has a place when faced with bold face lies and placating to such nonsense as to give them legitimacy in my opinion is morally wrong.
pomeroy82 2 years ago
It's that they see more on the same level than before.
But at the end of it all, the Apologetic is still firm in his belief of the Bible as the Word of God. And the Atheist still has yet to see what differentiates the Bible from the Quran or Torah outside of the language and names.
It's...they both see more on the other's level if they have the chance to see that the other person sees on their level.
[Imagine a non-apologetic in a similar situation. He would probably become atheistic]
onijester56 2 years ago
That rare case is totally the exception rather than the rule. And still leaves the issues unresolved even though both are left with a more fuzzy warm feeling for one another... Whenever i run across an apologist as such i leave with an ever worse taste in my mouth knowing that they are going to keep on going around promoting this intellectual treason thinking they are ordained by god to preach to others... and use it to bully those who are uninformed or uneducated enough to know better.
pomeroy82 2 years ago
1 of 10:
> Hostility has a place when faced with bold face lies and placating to such nonsense as to give them legitimacy in my opinion is morally wrong.
When it comes to confronting bold-faced lies, yes, I do agree that hostility has a place.
ToddAllenGates 2 years ago
2 of 10:
I never said anything in this video to the effect of "here's how we in the skeptic community should behave"—I acknowledge that there's such a variety of reasons for challenging theism's claims, that there's no ONE way people "should" respond (and because of this variety, we can hardly even call ourselves "a community").
ToddAllenGates 2 years ago
3 of 10:
When dealing with creationists who use lies and political power to try to teach lies to children, then, well, the approach of "Here are the facts: if you don't accept them you're an idiot" may be the only recourse.
But when dealing with theists who are sincere in their concerns, responding with hostility shifts the focus away from the actual issues. And dealing with the actual issues is where a change of beliefs at least has the *possibility* of occurring.
ToddAllenGates 2 years ago
4 of 10:
When it comes to die-hard fundamentalists, okay, probably nothing can pierce their armor of delusion, & I usually don't even try.
But when it comes to those theists who already have their own seeds of doubt, & are already feeling the pains of cognitive dissonance, then focusing solely on reasons for belief / disbelief (& bypassing emotionally-charged accusations like "how could you be so idiotically gullible to believe this crap?") is, I think, the best way to have an influence.
ToddAllenGates 2 years ago
5 of 10:
> We should just placate to the religious and maybe they'll one day change their minds and stop trying to dictate to others? Dream on!
The 80 videos on my channel do not "placate to the religious." Rather, my videos are mainly centered on how to talk to proselytizers (pamphlet-passers, concerned family members who are worried about your future in hell, etc.): those who believe the Bible is from God, and all the other religions were just made up by people.
ToddAllenGates 2 years ago
6 of 10:
Very briefly, my approach involves asking them how I can "know" all the other world religions were just made up by people, and I try to get the Christians to spell out the telltale signs of the human authorship of foreign faiths by three criteria: (a) they're pieced together from pre-existing religions, (b) their holy laws are often based on irrational prejudices and erroneous conclusions about cause and effect, and
ToddAllenGates 2 years ago
7 of 10:
(c) their stories contain inaccurate and earth-bound descriptions of the universe---stars that are tiny, a moon that shines its own light, a sun that orbits a flat and stationary earth, etc.
With those premises established, the conversation then turns to examining the Bible by the same light held up to non-Christian religions (and the bible, of course, contains every one of those same telltale signs of human authorship).
ToddAllenGates 2 years ago
8 of 10:
Use of this approach means I don't use my own arguments against the Christian; rather, the proselytizer is forced to defend himself against his own accusations: his own description of a religion created not by an Almighty Architect of the Universe, but by the flawed mind of man. (My video series "Using the Socratic Method with Christian Proselytizers" has the details.)
ToddAllenGates 2 years ago
9 of 10:
> [Apologists] use [their intellectual treason] to bully those who are too uneducated enough to know better
In my younger years, I felt the bullying effects of proselytizers as well—and at the time, my arguments were so wildly disorganized that I was always left frustrated with the feeling that I was "right" but too inarticulate to win any points. This is what led me to write my book, Dialogue with a Christian Proselytizer, and make my YouTube videos to promote it.
ToddAllenGates 2 years ago 2
10 of 10:
> Marginalization is the key and if that means a few hurt feelings then oh well.
Like the "good book" says, for everything there is a season, and a time for every purpose!
If I were to re-make this video today, I'd clarify this a bit better, and include some of the points you made (and that I agree with).
ToddAllenGates 2 years ago
I always replied to apologizers arguments with a loud berch.
Incase the insisted I put I gun in their nostril and told them "Do you wanna meet your boss, punk? Do you?"
Seriously... why even start a conversation with someone honestly thinking the world is 6,000 yo?
DINDRAGON 2 years ago
The Christian Apologists don't want the Scientologists trying to save them from their engrams and body thetans... I think they ought to give non-believers in souls the same consideration they want Scientologists to give them.
I want theists to know that I feel the same way about religion that religionists feel about Scientology or other superstitions.
I think all magical thinking is as harmful as the magical thinking the theist doesn't "believe in".
articulett 2 years ago 5
My recent "debate" with a "believer" (not exactly a skeptic from what we have done, though almost as intellectually open as one) had us examining other mythic/non-existant beings and why they do or do not exist.
Unfortunately he avoids the point every time I bring it up...and goes to insulting me for using logic (Literally he insulted me for being a "robot" and a "zombie" because I used logic against him)...
then again I did state that his "low level of logic represents low intelligence"...
onijester56 2 years ago
He kinda looked at the straw in your eye, didn't he?
davcar23 2 years ago
He seems to think that I have a full scare-crow field in my eye and cobwebs in my bell-fry...
Which is odd when HIS beliefs are based on "there is no evidence that it doesn't exist, so I believe it exists"...yet somehow the Tooth Fairy doesn't exist to him...
[The extent of people's thinking, I tell you]...
onijester56 2 years ago
Ummm, what is a soul?
Uberhilarious 2 years ago
Shan Tsung used to extract this thingie out of his opponents and use it for enhancing his power and black magic.
Warlocks in Warcraft use them in almost the same way.
I can only conclude that it is the token of your fatal victory over your opponent.
So it must be a video-game industry concept, something like the Hit Points bar.
DINDRAGON 2 years ago
I see.. lol.
Uberhilarious 2 years ago
great video
dirkamus 2 years ago
Awesome Music!!
no1sjester 2 years ago 2
ty ffreethinker you bring out the best of youtube
smashbeans 2 years ago 2
Does anyone here watch "Lie to me"?
Observe his expressions ;)
EchoInfinity 2 years ago
I missed it tonight : [
Borostiliont 2 years ago
Cool voice.
EchoInfinity 2 years ago
Lovely. I have read Carnegie's book as well. I agree 100 percent.
Trombonekevin08 2 years ago
Excellent.
winstonsmith00 2 years ago
Great guy :)
rationalargument 2 years ago
sure its better to use a chisel then a hammer but that ways no fun
sinslin 2 years ago 2
is that the guildwars opening?
SucculentJuniper 2 years ago
That's what I was wondering, but it sounds like it has more to the piano than the GW version.
MortalTodd 2 years ago
Very good video, stands out in quality of content (imo).
HiAdrian 2 years ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
the vatican HOLDS THE MISSING LINK to the worlds ills....
ALL ROADS lead to ROME.
VATICAN Vs. FUTURE
HomoGeneyes 2 years ago
Needs to have shorter video
Sqirril 2 years ago
ADD much?
HayteStreet 2 years ago
I'm humble towards theists when their humble towards me. I've took the offensive approach and it never gets anyone anywhere. So when I get into a discussion with a rude Christian I ignore them and walk away from the discussion.
FreePrometheus 2 years ago
whats up with the background music?
gqbredrin 2 years ago
Seriously. Name the song. It sounds familiar, and it's bugging the hell out of me. >.>
kjjerm 2 years ago
> Seriously. Name the song. It sounds familiar, and it's bugging the hell out of me.
Hi kjjerm,
From 5:42 to 8:54, it's my piano version of Korn's "Freak on a Leash." (See my above response to Cellsplitter.)
ToddAllenGates 2 years ago
If I know that your soul is in danger, yes, I'd like to warn you about it. I want you to be able to save yourself.
But, I have to be able to convince you logically why I think it's true. I can't just go around telling people that they need to be saved just "because".
And IF I do have enough evidence to show that they are in danger and they still won't listen, then it must be fate. Maybe they deserve it.
yo1o2eggs 2 years ago
If I knew your soul (ki, mana, chakra or whatever) was in danger that was not me I would kick the ass of the threatening supernatural force and I would celebrate my victory feasting on your soul!
MUHAHAHAHA!!!!
DINDRAGON 2 years ago
good video :)
boxant 2 years ago
omg that song in the background, I just know I heard it from somewhere. I can't remember from where :( a game?
Cellsplitter 2 years ago 5
Might be Legend of Zelda or something, mate..
xlUIblisUlx 2 years ago
I'm pretty sure it's Secret of Mana
mandatorychaos 2 years ago
This has been flagged as spam show
> I'm pretty sure it's Secret of Mana
From 5:42 to 8:54, it's my piano version of Korn's "Freak on a Leash." (See my above response to Cellsplitter.)
ToddAllenGates 2 years ago
> Might be Legend of Zelda or something, mate
From 5:42 to 8:54, it's my piano version of Korn's "Freak on a Leash." (See my above response to Cellsplitter.)
ToddAllenGates 2 years ago
you maybe played Guild Wars? it has similair structure. ;)
MaDrung 2 years ago
> Guild Wars?
From 5:42 to 8:54, it's my piano version of Korn's "Freak on a Leash." (See my above response to Cellsplitter.)
ToddAllenGates 2 years ago
Lol, talk about not going with the crowd:
I was thinking the sims xD
EchoInfinity 2 years ago
> omg that song in the background, I just know I heard it from somewhere. I can't remember from where
Ffreethinker inserted two different background songs: I don't know the first one, but from 5:42 to 8:54 it's my piano version of Korn's "Freak on a Leash." (That video is posted on my "ToddGates" channel, which I reserve for my piano & blues harp videos.)
ToddAllenGates 2 years ago
im pretty sure its oblivion, dude
garshfunkle 2 years ago
This has been flagged as spam show
first
Liotta1337 2 years ago
productive
ajgrovery 2 years ago