Zeus Helios. I value your opinion and would like to hear your personal counter-argument via video response or other method. However, taking over the comment section on another user's video is a bit disrespectful and will serve to counter your own opinion to ignorant individuals.
@clank1 It was not my intention to take over the comment section or appear disrespectful In fact I do not consider it disrespectful The comment section is for everyone as far as I know And if it is not It would help that the owner of the video would say so. If it come across as disrespectful Then I apologise for that I wanted to message politicoochie09 in his personal inbox but could not and was left to respond here. Please note if comments is made to me then surely I can respond to that comment
@clank1 Thanks for your advice. I do intend to do a video when I have completed my investigations. I would rather message people personaly when there is a long argument But sometimes I think their settings do not allow that. Thanks for the advice.
Atheist want proof that God exist as Christian want from atheist proof that he does not.Neither can present sufficient evidence to convince each other Yet they have sufficient evidence to convince themselves
A person does not need proof to disbelieve. No they don't if they wish to disbelieve without reason or scientific facts. The burden of proof is on believers. Not necessarily. If a disbeliever is searching for truth then its up to them to find it. If I say there is a God and you disbelieve I can say then its up to a believer to proof his existence. But if that disbeliever wishes to find out the truth for himself then its up to the disbeliever
@ZeusHelios My request to you was, What is your reasons for disbelief. But You have failed to answer the question. You have presented no Logical or reasonable explanation for your disbelieve. Many Christians belive not by evidence but by personal experience and a personal relationship with Christ. If you want evidence you can search for it or request it from a Christian if they have any. Christains will try to help you to understand that evidence is not the whole goal for proof.
@ZeusHelios You make no sense. You really need to understand the definition of atheism. It is absence of belief in God, that's all it is, nothing more. Now, you need to understand what faith is. Faith is belief without evidence. An atheist has no faith because he has been presented with no evidence. We all are born atheists. It's the default position for all humans. We get the disease of religion and faith from our parents, just like you did.
@politicoochie09 I make plenty of sense you just can't understand the question. You say you do not belive. OK that's fine but since God is spoken of for thousands of years to the present time. And there is a book about him Its not something you can just ignore and just say I do not belive you must have a reason to not belive just as you have a reason not to belive in Zeus. If your reason to not belive in God is the same as that of Zeus So be it But it is not a good reason.
@ZeusHelios No, you do not have "a" book about your God. You have a compilation of various "books" and you call it a book, but it's not. Your "book" wasn't even put together in the form you have until several hundred years after the death of Christ. Plus different denominations have different versions. AND, I can find you plenty of Rabbis that can show you exactly where you are wrong about where you THINK the Old Testament mentions Jesus when it clearly does not.
@politicoochie09 A book or a compilation of books put together. Its a book or whatever you want to call it. Its information about God and his plan. When it was put together does not matter. Its here despite every attempt to destroy it. The bible mentioned Jesus from genesis . And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel. That's about Jesus striking the serpent head" That's defeating Satan at the cross
@ZeusHelios POINT 5: Again, get in touch with some learned Rabbis, people that know thousands of times more about the Old Testament than you ever will. They will very easily and logically refute your notion that Jesus is mentioned in Genesis or anywhere else in the Old Testament. You're probably afraid to do this because it will blow your preconceived notions about the Old Testament right out of the water, and this will shake your faith to the core.
@politicoochie09 Jesus was spoken of in the bible from genesis and that cant be denied. End of. Show me proof that it does not. But I will double check as you have requested. I have been shown it by very learned and very educated Christians. I will be happy to let go of a belive if I was satisfied my belive was false Would you be willing to change yours if proven wrong or are your afraid to change your life. Im searching so I'm willing to change my belives.
@politicoochie09 Changing my belive would not concern me. So it would no tmatter to me if I was given satifactory evidence that God did not exist or the bible was incorrect. It will not shake me at all. But I can agree that it could shake the belives for others. I am searhcing as I said so I am happy to change.
@politicoochie09 Show me I will be interested. The bible is far more than what you think Look into it deeper and you will see and be amazed by it. There is a chain that runs from Adam to Christ throughout the bible. And many events in the old testament are linked to the coming of Jesus or of his mission.
@ZeusHelios POINT 6: I have looked "deeper" into the Bible. That's the problem. You can't reconcile any of it. It has too many contradictions. It's obviously written by ignorant men -- men who thought the stars were tiny, that the sky was a solid, that the earth was round but flat, that it was held up by pillars, that it had a dome above it with windows where God could look out at people. These were not metaphors. You have to have the REAL story first to even make a metaphor.
@politicoochie09 That was men not God. who said these things. You need to understand the bible correctly. The four corners of the earth means North South East West. I and Christians can explain it all and you have probably already heard it all. but you reject the explanations because as I have said it does not satisfy you but it does satisfy many others. That is the problem we all have our own level of satisfactory evidence and it all fits in to logic for both sides Or its debatable.
@politicoochie09 Also we as children are taught about a God. Obviously otherwise we may not know him. Almost everything is taught by adults to children. True some may be false stuff like Santa clause, fairies etc, None of which have a plan or a book for humanity or speak about who we are and where we came from etc Faith without evidence is not necessarily requried for many Christians as I have said before They have a personal relationship with him. Thats where alot of their faith comes from
@politicoochie09 Not all Christians need the evidence when you have a personal relationship with God then for many Christians that is all the proof they need. That is what you need to understand. But you cannot understand unless you experience the personal relation with Christ. Then you will understand Christians. Athiest belive not in God for whatever reasons they dispute been told about him . But I have not yet heard your rreasons for for disbelive.
@ZeusHelios I know very well that Christians do not need evidence to have their "personal" relationship with Jesus (Yah-Zeus). But, I know you look both ways when crossing the street, don't you? You don't just walk out into the road, having faith that there are no cars coming, or that god will save you, otherwise you would have a "personal relationship" with a truck! If you look for evidence in life, why would you not seek it for this one thing you hold so dear -- the afterlife?
@politicoochie09 As I said many Christians have thier evidence that is satisfactory for them. Others have a personal relationship with Christ which for them is even more than evidence and a big bonus. People do not need to look they can hear and if they cant hear they can ask for assistance. Now we have to trust that person and belive him that it is safe to cross, You are like the blind man who refuses to trust in the seeing man. Unless he can present evidence that it is safe to cross
@ZeusHelios POINT 4: I see perfectly fine. I know when to cross the street and when not to. I use evidence at my disposal (and my brain) to determine this. It's you that has "faith". Faith is a blind man pretending he can see. That's what you are doing, pretending you KNOW there are no cars coming, pretending you know when the next one will show up. But because you don't use your senses, you get lost, or worse, run over. You are currently lost in your delusion.
@politicoochie09 You see with your eyes but fail to see truthfully with your mind and heart. If you were blind and deaf you will have to have faith in one person helping you cross the road. You will not stand there asking him to prove it is safe to cross. Yet millions of people tell you there is a God and you refuse to accept it. You think you know its safe to cross but you get run over because you cant see with your heart and mind. Who will you trust to help you your Mother or a stranger.
@ZeusHelios No, it is you that is still blinded by your God delusion. I see very clearly. Once I became an atheist, my eyes were opened. Life has REAL meaning now. I can live in the present moment and appreciate the beauty of life. Before, I was always worried about my past (my sins), or thinking about the future (the return of Jesus). It's like having a blindfold removed. I see things clearly now.
@politicoochie09 I am not miserable neither do I fear the coming of Christ. Life for me still has meaning and challenges. If your belief caused you to fear etc then there was something wrong. I also appreciate the beauty of all things. You are searching and found your place as have Christians. It could be said that none are blind Just a different way of seeing things. I would appreciate it if you can message me persoanly and I you if we are gonna keep this up.
@politicoochie09 My point is God is love and has let us know what is safe and to trust him not men who are blind to the truth except he is shown the truth by God. From the beginning to the present. God has let us know of his presence. You can trust a God of love but not a man who can deceive you of what is truth because he is deceived himself and knows not the truth. except it be revealed to him by God
@politicoochie09 Millions of people are telling you there is a God but you been blind cannot see him and you wish to have evidence of him. Evidence that satisfies you.Yet there is sufficient evidence you do not trust or cannot see Neither does it satisfy you as been evidence. You want to cross the road but you do not trust the millions who tell you it is safe to cross. What evidence do you want that will satisfy you of Gods existence
@politicoochie09 Try and understand I am not asking you for evidence of a no God or of the truth of the bible. I am asking you for your reasons not to belive even though we have a book called the bible and God has been spoken about for thousands of years to this present time. You can stay an athiest but what is your reason not to belive. even though God has been spoken of so many time for thousands of years. I can't seem to message you in your inbox so I have to here.
@ZeusHelios POINT 7: Have you bothered to watch (with an open mind) any of QualiaSoup's other YouTube videos? Try doing that. You might learn something. Especially the ones that discuss critical thinking and logic.
I think the first and major problem would be, if god desires love and equality, why does he discirminate good and evil through faith, rather then goodwill and harm? this way a christian burglar can get in heaven, and the kind ol'man downstreet faces eternal punishment for not commiting a crime
God and Adam. Adam disobeyed a command from God as a child might a parent Who would suffer the consequences of thier disobedience. Even if they did not know they were doing wrong. For example. A parent might say don't touch the fire or you will burn yourself. Yet the child ignores this and touches the fire and hurts itself. The child should have trusted the parent Just like Adam should have trusted God. The difference between the child and Adam is that Adam was not so naive. and unlike a child
@politicoochie09 Your comment did not go to my inbox for some reason. I spotted your comment while viewing another comment here. So do not know which comment you are referring to on here. If you are a Christian then you set a bad example by your judgment of people. If you are not a Christian then you calling me an idiot is not an intelligent argument and proves nothing If you have a point to make do so intelligently
@ZeusHelios A famous man once said: “If you must argue, remember that it is impossible to defeat an ignorant man in argument.” You are that ignorant man. You are trying to rationalize a story that is clearly fictional and make a case for it being an actual event. Anything you say in this regard is easily dismissed as foolish.
@politicoochie09 A famous man once said. And you belive everything a famous man once said. That's not having a mind of your own. And you have proven once again that you failed to understand my messages. What message are you referring to. There is nothing you have said that is even an argument or even intelligent. If you have something to say then state what it is and to what you are referring to in my comments.
An ignorant man can be wised up when given the information he needs to wise him up
@ZeusHelios There you go with "belief" again. Don't "believe" what the "famous man" said, understand the truth of it. Again, your messages are lacking. They are all conjecture about a purely fictional tale and your spin on it is that it was a real event. You want me to engage you in a discourse about which parts are true or not true? That would be absurd. ALL of it is false. It's a made-up story. The missing element of intelligence here comes from you believing a fairy tale.
@politicoochie09 Also you stating its false and that's your argument is simply not a very clever argument. If you have something to say or argue about then state it. Saying its a waste of time or is absurd is unintelligent You have some something to prove then lets see it Otherwise dont waste anyone's time with your unintelligent comments. Simply because your reasoning makers it false to you does not make it false. You want an argument speak to those who know more on religion and the bible
@politicoochie09 Going by your comments to me you have nothing intelligent to say Christians would probably rip you apart if you got into an argument with them. If you wish to comment then comment with something worth commenting on. Saying its fake or absurd etc proves nothing in any way. If I do not get an intelligent comment from you then I will not be wasting any more of my time with you and your comments will have to be ignored.
@ZeusHelios I am SO worried about you ignoring my comments! LOL! You think dissecting a myth shows you to be "intelligent" and anyone that thinks it's a dubious endeavor is not. That just shows you to be either delusional (if you believe the myth to be true), or at the very least, boring for bothering to comment on it. I stand by my original assertion that you are wasting your time on a silly myth, no matter how "intelligently" you discuss the matter.
@politicoochie09 Your comments are all the same. Saying what you say in them has no value whats so ever and no evidence. In fact its not even an argument. You are Just one of those people who think by using such comments as you do as an argument wins over Intelligent peoples arguments. There are many believers who are far more educated and intellegent than you. Go and tell them what you think and prove to them your reason for your disbelive. This is my last comment. All the best to you.
@ZeusHelios You still don't get it. I'm not trying to present ANY evidence. I'm saying that you trying to rationalize this stupid story, treating it as if it was a true event, is just stupid. YOU are the one not presenting anything intelligent by the very fact that you are trying to fill in the gaps about what supposedly happened in the Adam and Eve story as if it was an historical event. You may as well fill in the gaps in a story about the Care Bears, or Little Red Riding Hood.
@politicoochie09 OK I couldn't resist replying to your last message First you have failed to understand my reasons for my comments on here even though I have tried to explain it. Secondly where are the gaps I am trying to fill in in my comments. I was stating the facts of what the scriptures had said. I'm not trying to explain anything away.
Also You say its a story where is your evidence for that belive. Calling it stupid is calling every one who belives in it including scientist stupid.
@ZeusHelios First, scientists DON'T believe in the Adam and Eve story. Not real ones. (Christian apologists don't count as real scientists.) I don't need to prove to you that it's just a story. You can try to prove that it's real if you want, but extraordinary tales require extraordinary proof. Talking snakes, and trees that give "knowledge" are extraordinary and the burden of proof is on your shoulders, not mine. Otherwise I will have you prove I don't have unicorns in my house.
@politicoochie09 You can't call something a story or stupid if you cant prove its just a story. And saying its obvious etc is simply incorrect. Many educated and intelligent people accept the bible. As I have said You need to present evidence for your disbelief. Try and understand that last statement. And what evidence do you require from me. You can find it all out for your self There are plenty for and against the bible I suggest you study them then come to a decission.
@ZeusHelios Certainly, there are intelligent people that "accept" the Bible. Smart people CAN be delusional. Look in the mirror for one. Brains can compartmentalize just about anything. If I tell you I have magic dust in my pocket that when sprinkled on a cat will automatically make it bark like a dog, you wouldn't believe that, but at the same time, you think a snake talked to the first woman. You separate what you want to think is real. Same brain, different degree of sanity.
@politicoochie09 That comment is just nonsense. Have you not read my messages. I doubt very much educated people can be so delusional as you make out. For they use good science historical data and good logical thinking. And they are real scientist. I was not asking you to prove to me the bible is true I was asking you to give me your reason for your disbelief. That is what I have been asking you for. And what proof do you have that leads you to disbelieve.
@ZeusHelios A person doesn't need proof to "disbelieve". A person needs the believer to prove his assertions about God. The burden of proof is on the person making the claim. You have presented no logical argument (and no one in history has either) that the Adam and Eve story is factual in any way at all. Now, if you want to discuss the story in the same manner as we would regarding the stories about Zeus and Athena, that's fine. Otherwise don't waste people's time.
@politicoochie09 Evidence. You may simply refuse to accept it or the current evidence which is sufficient for many is not sufficient for you. You cannot present your own satisfactory proof as proof of none existence for others or Christians as Christians cannot present thier own satisfactory proof to you for Gods existence. Science has neither proved or disproved God. Zues does not continue today But God continues even today Thats the difference
@politicoochie09 You see All other gods have gone by except Yahweh and Jesus. No one has a personal relationship with any other god except with Christ. No book or bible exist for these gods except from Yahweh and none are like the bible. If you understand the bible you will know there is no book like it. And there is sufficient evidence of a great designer. Learn the bible and check out many YouTube videos for it as well as against it and you will see its not that easy to dismiss.
@ZeusHelios You do not have a personal relationship with an imaginary being. Not really. You think you do, but you're just talking to yourself. It has been scientifically proven that prayer is just as accurate as flipping a coin. Talk about wasting your time! And yes, I do understand the Bible, very well. Nothing will make an atheist quicker than reading that silly book. If God was such a great designer, he wouldn't have made so many mistakes.
@politicoochie09 Your opinion and judgement is pointless to a christian A personal relationship with Christ has changed many peoples lives and helped them in many ways and even caused many miraculous healing. You do not understand the bible as you think you do niether can you for you do not have the spirit with you. Secoundly if you understood the bible you will know there is a connection from Adam to Christ throughout the bible. And you will understand many other amazing things about it.
@ZeusHelios Religion CAN serve a purpose. And it has changed many people's lives. (Not always for the better.) But if it can stop a killer from killing, or alter extreme bad behaviors in certain people, then I'm okay with it as a tool for such things. It still doesn't make it real. Santa Claus can serve a purpose if it makes children behave once a year, but it's not real. Psychotropic drugs can alter a persons behavior, but the real person isn't really there when they are on drugs.
@politicoochie09 But Santa Claus and drugs dont make miracles. Neither do they change peoples lives for life. Children are not a good example. Good behaviour for a few days so Santa Claws brings a gift is hardly changing a child's life for life. You need to know the difference. The difference is deeper in a mans whole being. I am not talking about religion I'm talking about Christ. There is a difference.
@politicoochie09 Religion can change a man to do good and bad. But it cant change his heart where his life has changed forever. True Christians are not religious people they are people who have a true relationship with Christ and know how to live thier lives for the better.
@ZeusHelios POINT 2: Becoming a Christian is not guarantee of anything. Plenty of Christians go and do heinous things, but still claim to be Christian. The rest of the flock immediately denies this person was ever a Christian, abandoning him/her in the hour of need. I see it all the time. The deniers are worse than Peter denying Christ, saying things like, "He was never a REAL Christian!" as if they actually know what one really is. No one really knows. The isn't one true definition.
@politicoochie09 True. Let me try and make it clear. A Christian who does not follow Gods commandments is not a Christian. A true Christian is one who is born of the spirit and has a personal relationship with God. If he falls short again of his relationship with God then he is no longer a true Christian. He can call himself a Christian but the truth is he is not.
@ZeusHelios That's ridiculous. You said: "If he falls short again of his relationship with God then he is no longer a true Christian." That means you are also no longer a Christian over and over again everyday of your life! You "fall short" all the time. You can't tell me you're living a "perfect" life all the time just because you didn't kill someone today! You are so caught up in the circular logic of your religion, you're dizzy, and you can't find a way out!
@politicoochie09 If it was a silly book and you do not belive it why did you read it And if you are an atheist why then do you look for evidence for it. If you can answer those question then surely you can answer the simple question as to why you do not belive in it other than your silly reason for thinking it is silly what is your logical or reasonable reason for not believing in it You do not appear to have one.
@ZeusHelios To the simpleton, I give a simple answer: I read the entire Bible because I used to be a Christian. And I do not look for evidence of God, that's your job. I will refute unsound logic when I find it (like with your posts), but I don't lose any sleep over it. My logical reason for NOT believing in theism is that it is not logical. Very simple. So simple, even you SHOULD be able to understand, but based on your previous ramblings, I do still have my doubts about that.
@politicoochie09 Your logic is flawed and you have not presented to me your logic for your disbelief. To tell me its not logical might as well be the same as me saying God exists. Logic is based on your own logic and not based on true logic. Your own logic if checked against another persons logic will only result in an everlasting argument as it does now with atheist and theist. Yours is no better than theirs.
@ZeusHelios POINT 1: I did present my logic for "disbelief". I am at the default position. Imagine I am someone that was raised in a jungle and was never exposed to any ideas about any kinds of Gods or creators or anything. Then you come along and tell me there is an invisible God somewhere that I should believe in or bad things will happen. How are you going to convince me? You tell a pretty fantastic tale, so you better have some fantastic evidence, right? Well, you don't have any.
@politicoochie09 Wrong If I told you a fantastic story and I wanted to convert you then yes its upto me to prove it. But if I left you with that story you can do one of 2 things forget or ignore it or find out if it is all true for yourself If you were in the jungle and I told you take cover there is gonna be an asteriod smashing into the jungle You can belive me or not If you belive me then you take cover or move from the place and you are saved. If you choose not to belive then you are doomed
@politicoochie09 If I wanted to make you belive and save you from the disaster Then I can show you pictures or show you the object through a telescope. But you will say that I am a liar and delusional and this telescope is false and I am trying to trick you to gain his land etc etc etc You will not belive no matter what. I show you the evidence but it is not satisfactory evidence to you You cannot undersatnd the workings of my telescope so you disbelive. -cont-
@politicoochie09 You see my point is if your life is in danger you can ignore the warnings or you can find out for yourself. Since I cant convince you and whatever evidence I have does not convince you then you have to decide if its worth finding out for your self. My telescope is not evidence to a jungle man. Gods presence is not evidence to you even though it is. The difference between fairies stories and myths is the bible which speaks of many things.
@ZeusHelios Again, you can teach the jungle man all about the telescope, how it works, what it does. He can take it apart, hold it, feel it, understand it with his senses. But, you cannot show him where Hell is, you can't show him your Jesus character other than pointing to a picture, but that's not the real person of Jesus, is it? It's just a piece of paper with an image of a man. You can't stand that fact that you can't prove the existence of your God in any manner to anyone.
@politicoochie09 I expect this message from you. You see you failed to understand my message of the telescope. Before you could teach the jungle man everything about the telescope it would be to late. The point is why should he belive you. Yet you know the truth but he thinks your a fake. If millions of people came to him and said look out surely he would or would he think they are all delusional. God has said look out and million also. No time to study the telescope.
@ZeusHelios I got your message regarding the telescope quite clearly, but in the analogy it isn't God warning him, it's you. Big difference. An all-knowing loving God would give the jungle man plenty of time to study and understand. Only an evil god would wait until the last minute. But, in the story, YOU, not God, are standing on his land, and all you have is a book and a photo of Jesus and you are incapable of producing your god, or any evidence for him.
@politicoochie09 I do not think you understood. My point is this. Millions are telling you and it all started from a loving God and millions today are telling you. Yet you still do not belive You have prayer and the bible and we have had it for thousands of years. You have had plenty of time. The jungle man story was merely trying to point out when he should belive. -cont-
@politicoochie09 -cont- and why. If there is no time to find out or we cannot find the truth through mankind. then who do we trust. Surely we trust a loving God who has made him self known to us through the bible and through his people. The jungle man might not belive the one man but will he the millions who speak of a God. And if a man tells his son there is a God for he has seen him and his father loves his son should he belive his father. God has spoken to us through Jesus and his prophets
@ZeusHelios Just because millions believe in something doesn't make it real. Millions have believed the world was flat and they were wrong. Millions believed the sun revolved around the earth and they were wrong. Millions still believe an invisible being has "a personal relationship" with earthlings, and they are wrong also. In the end you have no proof. The default position is no god until proven to exist. Parents have been lying to their children for generations. It's time to stop.
@JustinHEMI05 Hi I don't wont to start a long debate with you. Not here any way if you wish to debate then private inbox me. I am sending you this message. Earth is 6,000 Years Old by truthmakesfree Watch it if you wish I will be interesed to know your thought on it. I personaly do not think earth is 6,000 years old.
@politicoochie09 Millions of people believed and they were wrong. TRUE. But they dont now. that's what is different. God has survived for thousands of years to the present time. No one has a bible on flat earth or sun revolving around earth etc. Good few years ago I prayed and God answerd me. Maybe it was imaginery maybe it was not.But when do I belive somehting is real. Do I only belive when I see him Then I might say I imagined it I ask when do I or you or anyone decide when something is real.
@ZeusHelios You should study mental disorders and understand how powerful the human imagination is. Many people see things that aren't there, or hear voices that aren't there, or imagine some entity is in a room with them when it just isn't true. Religious "experiences" are quite similar. The mind is very good at deception even when it's deceiving itself. The reason humans are at the top of the food chain is because of our ability to deceive other mammals.
@politicoochie09 I know to well about the brains amazing abilities. And if I were to speak of them here we would begin another argument. And besides Hallucinations illusions etc etc are one thing And as you can most of the time you can tell reality from imagination so can experience tell you the real from the unreal even if that real is of the supenatural kind Its something you have not experience so you may not know it or understand it.
@ZeusHelios Here's the bottom line: Get a telescope and look at the stars. Do some math regarding the size and distance of those stars relative to the earth. If you can comprehend the magnitude of what you discover, you will also see that whatever it was that made the Trillions of stars and the Billions of galaxies could not possibly be your Yahweh/Jesus. A creator that can do that doesn't get jealous, it doesn't command tribes to carry out genocide, and it needs no resurrection.
@politicoochie09 Do what you ask me to do and ask could it all really happen by chance. Look and think and see how it all appears to be a design of an intelligence. If it can happen by chance then why not by an intellegence. Look at what we can do and compare it to just a 100yrs ago and a 1000yrs ago Think what we will be able to do in a thousand years time We are gods to the ancients And in a 1000yrs time they will be like gods to us. Now why not a God who created the universe.
@politicoochie09 You say this world is real. How do you know? Because of your five senses. But if you were given yet another sense to experience the world. Would you call it imagination or would you accept it as real. Just because you never lived with another kind of experience or sense does not mean it does not exist. If you could not see and suddenly you can see would you deny what you can see now.
@politicoochie09 Just saw this message. read my message. Your life is entirely based on science to reveal to you what is real and not real Be Careful there you might miss out on something. There was no sceince as we know it 100's of years ago. Just experience of life that everyone trusted. True some experiences may have been imaginary but there are those that are as real as any experience we have had that has given us the gudiance we needed.
@ZeusHelios No, again, you are making false assumptions (you do this often, I see). I do not rely on science for everything in my life. I can see a flower, know its beauty, and not have a clue about how it grows in a particular climate or how much chlorophyll it contains. But, I could use science to find out. Again, extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. I can prove the flower exists, but you cannot prove God exists.
@politicoochie09 Yes you can prove the flower exist because we all share the same senses But if I had a telescope to enhance my vision and you did not and I told you the moon has craters you probably would never belive me. If you did not know. Now If I have the ability to know God personaly by some other rmeans you have not yet experienced Why should mine be a fake and yours be real because you have not seen. -cont-
@ZeusHelios Yours is fake because you have to first show us your sixth sense—prove that you communicate with your god with this fabulous tool, so we can all be amazed. You can’t. But science can show your brain pattern when you are in a delusional state. Science can show that your state of being when you are in full belief mode is simply the brain tricking itself to believe non-sense.
@politicoochie09 Science is God to you. You believe it even if it were wrong or if it could not measure something or test something or prove something.You will not belive. Such a narrow mind. That you will only belive what can be proven. I have answered you that question How can I answer you if you do not listen and understand. You have prayer as a tool. And besides that there are many things in life that tell you there is more than what we can see and experience-cont-
@ZeusHelios Again, stop trying to analyze what I am, or what I’m thinking. I’m telling you what I am, but you insist on adding labels and assumptions. Science is not my god. Science is a tool that I use to verify my reality. That’s all it is to anybody. You trying to equate what other people are, based on your backward assumptions, is typical of Christian “logic” but it’s always wrong. Watch "Arguing With Ghosts" by QualiaSoup to understand what you just did. (Access above.)
@politicoochie09 It took an extra instrument to pick up infrared. You would have never believed it before until it was proven. That is your problem. Only if it can be proven will you belive But your disbelief in infrared would not have made it unreal It is real. Maybe sceince will find something for people like you that could find God and then you might belive. My prove to you can not come to you in a sceintifc experimnet I'm afraid You have prayerand the bible and you can take it or leave it.
@ZeusHelios Infrared is an invention of man, just like prayer is. But infrared works, prayer does not. Again, you are trying to assign something to your feelings and emotions way beyond what they actually are. Feelings are just feelings. Emotions are just emotions. If you had some special power to communicate with a “god” we should be able to measure that. Why? Because we live in the physical world, not the fantasy world.
@politicoochie09 How do you know that you can measure everything in the physical world. How do you know that there is not yet things to be discovered that has not been measured or maybe cannot be measured with what we currently have. Again you put your faith in current sceince and not realising that future sceince may show there is more
@politicoochie09 Now I can show you the telescope to enhance your vision and see for yourself But if you were short sighted or blind you still lwill not belive. You can have the telescope and see for your self You can have prayer and see for yourself Its up to you to use the telescope and see.Its upto you to pray with your heart and see
@ZeusHelios The telescope is something I can identify with my senses. I don’t need an extra imaginary sense to identify it. You’re trying to posit that people that don’t believe like you do are “blind” to your extra sense, but without any reliable ability to measure it, it’s just mumbo-jumbo YOUR brain has produced, and there is no reason to accept it based on such flimsy evidence. And multiple people with the same delusion proves nothing. Anyone can make a claim. Few can prove them.
@politicoochie09 Yes but you can identify with Christians personal relationship with Christ. You see I have given you a telescope and you refuse to look through it. How then will you ever know. You can pray from your heart and it is guaranteed that you will know what Christian are talking about. You can call it an extra imaginary sense if you like but then You have never experienced it so you reject it Because the world for you is limited to your five senses. -cont-
@politicoochie09 But if a blind man should suddenly see Why should he belive the millions who tell him that it is vision.A fifth sense that will help him understand the world around him better. Or should he only belive when science tells him it is vision. Or will he belive the millions who tell him without the sceince. He will get use to his vision and learn to trust it Just as Christians trust their personal relationship with God
@ZeusHelios Furthermore, prayer has been scientifically shown to be just as accurate as flipping a coin. It doesn’t change anything for REAL. It may make the people that did the praying feel better, but that’s about it. I know I know you’ll say you’ve seen real people healed with prayer, but that’s actually called “coincidence” (look it up, seriously), or it’s called having a good doctor.
@politicoochie09 No wrong you need to do more searching . Prayer of the kind you mentioned is not true prayer. True prayer to God from your heart cannot be done in some lab. How can that be a real prayer. Understand true prayer is from the heart. And probably cannot be measured in a lab Unless the person prayed form his heart in truthfulness That is that it is really from his heart that he is praying.
@ZeusHelios The prayer research wasn't done in a lab. It was measured in hospitals on real patients with life-threatening illnesses. The people praying were sincere Christians concerned about the health of the patients. The prayers made no difference.
@politicoochie09 What proof do you and I and everyone else want to convince us all. How should the proof be revealed to us so that we trust it and believe. There are many things we trust what we are told not knowing for sure if it is true. We just accept it as true But is it. I'd say that unless we know the complete sceince behind things that leaves no doubt then we may be able to know for sure. Experience may play a part in believing But for some that also would be doubted.
@ZeusHelios People "know in their heart" that Jesus is real, but here they even start out with something that isn't real. The ancient writers of the Bible thought the heart was where people's emotions and thoughts came from and were certain that the brain was a useless organ. Boy, were they wrong! This idea has, wrongly, survived to the present. But, now we know that the heart only pumps blood, and reacts to the BRAIN producing emotional states. Religious experience is emotional.
@politicoochie09 Our hearts do more than pump blood. From it we have many feelings Now do'nt tell me those feeling are in the brain Because so is pain. And the heart will repond to those feelings. And besides it does not matter where you feel the feeling in your brain,heart or in your toes The fact is there are feeling that have a function and that it can reveal truth to us as well as many other things.-cont-
@ZeusHelios No, your heart only pumps blood. If your heart skips a beat when you hear the name of your sweetheart, it came from your ears recording that name, sending it to your brain, with your brain sending adrenaline to your heart, and your heart skipping a beat. It's biological. Emotions can create biological reactions in just about any part of the body, with the heart being the most noticeable, but it's still a physiological reaction to a stimulus via the senses.
@politicoochie09 Exactly So its a reaction and it does not matter where it came from and where it went or where you felt it. It was as real as you experienced it. As real as sight as real as hearing as real as any of the five senses that we know and trust. Its what we have that gives us the information we need about the world around us Either You failed to understand my message otherwise I didn't see your point in That comment Its all what we experience. Some Of us experience something else God.
@ZeusHelios So, you do understand that experience with our five senses is all we have. You don’t seem to understand that those senses are sometimes unreliable and that we can sometimes come up with the wrong conclusions. Our senses are the BEST way to understand our world, but they are not perfect. Your problem is that you experience a feeling and then expand that to ridiculous heights of infinity and call it “God.” This is a great example of the unreliability I’m talking about.
@politicoochie09 It may be that our sense can be unreliable But they have done us well for thousands of years and for evolutionist for millions of years Now if they were so unreliable surely no creature would have survived And none have relied on sceince to get them through to this day. Even scientist at times been wrong or there equipment have not been so reliable. Sorry but sceince is just another tool to what we have already and we can use both to know the world
@ZeusHelios Sure, our senses have done very well in helping us to evolve. But many times, primitive man thought the rustling in the leaves HAD to be a lion, but later he discovered it was a dog. (Or vice versa.) Primitive Man was Basic Man. He had very basic knowledge and understanding of his world, and almost zero knowledge of anything outside his planet. He learned to write, and much of what he wrote he called one thing, when in reality it was something else.
@politicoochie09 This comment has already been answered. Sure we learn as we go on. But how did we get this far with just what we had well before sceince and for a long time before. And so has millions of animals none have sceince Just the tools of nature to tell them of the world around them. And they have shown remarkable abilities some with senses beyond ours. We have just learned about them. We may one day learn the science behind prayer if that is possible. Senses we may yet discover in us.
@ZeusHelios You will have to evolve a sixth sense. Science has shown there is no such thing. Maybe someday humans will have that ability, but right now they do not. Again, I have already addressed this. Science has already shown that prayer is not a sixth sense, and it’s no more useful than flipping a coin.
@politicoochie09 Science has proven nothing of the sort And the fact that you say humans may one day have that ability at least shows you are willing to admit that there is a possiblity of something more
@politicoochie09 Also why do atheist always say it is JUST. Of course it is just a brain function or a bilogical function If it were not so we would not be here. But that does not mean these function are not essential I'm sure I need not tell you the importance of body functionS. Brain, heart etc And these important body functions telll us about our world like our eyes,ears taste touch FEELINGS etc
@ZeusHelios No, we could still exist if we only had biological functions and tiny brains. But we have evolved large brains and have become conscious, sentient beings, able to go beyond basic functions. No one is denying that. But, you are trying to apply significance to happenstance feelings, or you are misapplying meaning to deliberate feelings. This is common. The problem arises when you remain in that state and do not think through (analyze) those feelings rationally.
@politicoochie09 You fail to understand experience of life Tell me now that you have not learned from experience. And it has been the main part of your life in your learning. All function like the eyes help you to learn and experience the world around you . And its something you have learned to trust. How would you know that some people may have experienced something more than what you are use to. -cont-
@politicoochie09 -cont- You cannot say they are delusional any more than you can say a blind person who learns to see is delusional. How would you know Perhaps it you who is in the wrong state of thinking. If you experience something is it always false is hearing and seeing also false could anyone explain it scientifically 100's of years ago yet they trusted what they experienced with those senses. You have always experienced it and use to and learned to trust it. see with their -cont-
@politicoochie09 Why should others be denied of what they have experienced and learned to trust because you have not experienced it and learned to trust. Oh science cant explain it but neither could it explain things 100's of years ago but people didn't deny what they experienced back then. Science may have some explantions but it cant and does not yet explain everything and if it could it will not deny the supernatural or God. When it has advanced it will accept God in the end
@politicoochie09 But you can wait till sceince tells you everything before you belive anything. You did not rely on science to trust your sight But you can wait till it explains God before you accept it that is your choice. As for many we already know there is more to the five senses and more to the universe than blind chance. Keep searching.
@politicoochie09 Jesus was real and there is proof of that outside the bible. And the fact that a man called Jesus who was honest and a good man who spoke of God must have a lot to say about Gods existence and he knew God more than any one of us past and present. And the mistakes ancient people made in science is not evidence of a lack of Gods existence.
@ZeusHelios There is scant proof of Jesus outside of the Bible, most of it very questionable. Someone that was supposed to be so amazing should have hundreds of historical references. He does not. Sure, there probably was an itinerant preacher in Palestine back then with a similar name, but that doesn't make him a god. A real god, one that made everything, would have much more amazing things to say and do, way more than the often confused and fickle Jesus.
@politicoochie09 That is your own way of thinking Who are you to say what God will say and do. Perhaps if you read the bible without your attention on one particular thing but keep your attention open to all things in the bible then you might understand it better. You saying thaa shows me and Chritians that even thoughh you have read the bible you have not understood it. The proof is there check it out and see for your self.
@ZeusHelios No, I have read the Bible with an open mind. I was once a born-again Christian and a true believer. (I know you will immediately reply with, “Oh, but you weren’t REALLY a Christian, otherwise you’d still be one.” I know that tired old line and it’s completely unfounded and a lie because you have NO idea what was in my mind at the time.) NOW, I have seen the REAL light, and I know logic and reason is truth, and Christianity is a falsehood.
@politicoochie09 True you weren't a true Christian because if you were yes you will still be one today. That is the thing about people they think they are true Christians because they go to church and read the bible and that is that But had you had a relationship with Christ you would never have left Christianity. What was on your mind say so.
@ZeusHelios Again, you are flat out wrong. In my mind, just as what is in yours is today, I truly believed in Jesus and had that “relationship” you’re talking about. You’re insulting me if you tell me I didn’t actually believe what I thought was real. I know now that it was NOT real, and I know that your relationship with Jesus isn’t real either – you just haven’t awakened from your delusion, like I have. But, I have no doubt that you THINK it is real.
@politicoochie09 You did not say that you had a relationship with Christ. Tell me about it so I can see if your past relationship with Christ is the real one that I know about. And if you realy did have the true relationship I am talking about Then what was it that drove you away. I would be honestly very interested.
@ZeusHelios If you want to know how I felt about my Christianity, think about how you feel about Jesus right now… it was pretty much the same. One thing Christians do have in common is the same rapt enthusiasm for their god. There’s nothing else I can tell you about it that would suffice, and you are not in a position to judge what is real about such an experience.
@politicoochie09 Yes I am in that position to judge your experience if real or not. The very fact that you have little to say about it and have made such a vague explanation on it shows me that you have never felt the true spirit of God and have never had a close relationship with Christ. For if you did you would be with no doubt about your experience and you would explain it in such a way that it would be amazing. It will be hard to explain at and at the same time you will explain it
@ZeusHelios No, you do not have the ability to discern whether what I believed was “right” or “wrong” because you can only base it on your own experience, which will be just different enough for you to make your pre-determined conclusion that it’s wasn’t the “right” one. You’ve already made up your mind on it, you’ve just looking for something to pin it on. Your bias precedes you. And you can’t escape it.
@politicoochie09 I know people who have been changed by thier relationship with Christ. And belive me they were not so good people but prayed for help and they were changed. They were atheist Who simply tried prayer and asked that if he was real then to reaveal himself.
@ZeusHelios There are two kinds of non-believers: Those that have never had much exposure to it and simply never regarded religion as something to think about – those are “easy-pickins” (or should I say victims?) for the proselytizing Christian. Then there are others, like me, that have actually studied both sides and have come to the conclusion that Christianity is a delusion-of-self. You’re encountering lots of the former, not the latter.
@politicoochie09 I am talking about Christ not religion Any way no point in going on untill I get your reply from your past relationship with Christ comment that I send you. Which was-- You did not say that you had a relationship with Christ. Tell me about it so I can see if your past relationship with Christ is the real one that I know about. And if you realy did have the true relationship I am talking about Then what was it that drove you away. I would be honestly very interested
@ZeusHelios As I’ve said before, religion can change people (but not always for the better.) If you are an habitual criminal, a murderer in prison, then, yes, religion could be a change for the better and I’m fine with that. But, if you are basically a good person, a thinking person, minding your own business, then religion is useless. A thinking person can change in positive ways without the need for Iron Age fairy tales.
@politicoochie09 Since science is not complete on the subject of God then neither of us can be 100% certain Some born again Christian may feel 100% sure of their experience believing without a doubt. Who is lying.Parents or evolutionist and atheist who is to tell for sure. It appears we all have our own reasons to choose to belive Chritians reason are not enough for you and yours are not enough for them. I could go on but enough space has been taken up here. All the best to you.
@ZeusHelios "Feelings" and being "100% sure" of those feelings are still just emotive states of being and are very unreliable. People let their emotions run away with them and are usually incapable of perceiving reality. This is simply a fact that is undeniable. And even when they are wrong, even when they are presented with evidence that their feelings, emotions, and conclusions about those emotions are wrong, those persons still will often cling to those falsehoods anyway.
@politicoochie09 You have had feeling and you cannot deny that Yet those feeling told you something true. Experience is one way of knowing the truth. If you see a pregnant women How do you know she is pregnant. From experience not from sceince. Though sceince can confirm her pregnancy. A lot of our lives is feelings and much as thoughts. And those felings reveal truth to us.
@ZeusHelios Knowing a woman is pregnant comes not from feelings, but from using one of your senses -- your eyesight. Plain and simple. That's not a "feeling." If you guess she is pregnant and she's not showing, then there are other subtle, subconscious clues that guide you in that direction, but the input is still through your senses and to your brain. It's not a "feeling." You can label it that all you want, but it's still not true. Experience is through the senses, nothing more.
@politicoochie09 You have agreed with me without even knowing it. All Senses and experience play a part in what we understand in the world. Information is experienced or learned through one thing within us and that includes feelings and experiences You see you have said it and agreed with me. Subtle subconsious clues that guide you in that direction Yet you accept it and trust it But refuse to accept it from others when relating to God and the supernatural.
@politicoochie09 If one of the five senses were missing they will have only the remaining ones to know the world around them Yet they will trust those remaining If they regularly experienced another sense to add to thier current ones Will they not know from experience that it is real And you can say to they are delusional etc but they know its real Why should they rely on scince to tell them when their own experiences tells them Science was not and is not there for us all the time to know truth
@politicoochie09 Earth is 6,000 Years Old by truthmakesfree Watch it if you wish I will be interesed to know your thought on it. I personaly do not think earth is 6,000 years old.
@ZeusHelios Any video regarding the Earth being 6000 years old is going to be something I've already heard hundreds of times. Unless you can point to something new about it, I have no reason to watch it. The fossil record and DNA sequencing proves that evolution is the most likely way life progressed to the present state. DNA, especially, shows that humans and dinosaurs did not exist at the same time.
@politicoochie09 Watch it anyway and let me know your thoughts on it anyway. You have spent enough time on here with me so I'm sure it wont be to much for you to watch this video Its not brilliant But it does point out a few things.
@politicoochie09 One other thing about the telescope. They might be suspicious of your telescope and think you have manufactured something evil. Believe me it is a true story but with a television not a telescope. Now how you gonna convince him if he thinks that. You will have to reeducate him first If you had the time before the flood/ comet strikes. His mind might be such he wont be so easily convinced Same goes with atheist and theist. But would he belive millions includng his own kind.
@politicoochie09 If I said to a jungle man its gonna flood here and I have no means to prove it to him except satellite pics he will still disbelieve what I show him as false because he cannot understand anything I show him. If God came to you and showed himself to you You will say It was a dream or I have lost it You see the evidence is there if you see it with your mind and your heart. But you deny it as insuffient evidence. Pray and ask God to reveal the truth to you
@ZeusHelios See this is where Christians get lost. If I give you an example that concerns itself with the spiritual realm, you come back with something in the physical realm as an answer. And vice versa. In the jungle-man scenario, telling him his spirit will go to hell if he doesn't accept Jesus as dictator, is very different than telling him a flood is coming. If you're talking about oranges, stay with oranges, don't switch to apples. It shows very poor debating skills.
@politicoochie09 You want answers to what you want to hear and not the real answers. What is the difference hell or a flood it will kill him just the same I do not belive in hell by the way. I will tell the jungle man about God and the bible and many things of God for him to make up his own mind. If he wants evidence in the same way as you do besides what I give him Then that's for him to find if he so wishes. I am not here to convert you. Christians might and yes they should provide the proof.
@ZeusHelios But you never give any real answers to anything. You just ramble on about how someone got a feeling in their heart and now they believe that some guy that lived 2000 years ago is a God, but this god refuses to ever show himself. Somehow he "died" and that allows you to not be responsible for your immoral behaviors anymore. People rape and kill, but they no longer have to ask their victims for forgiveness, they have to ask Jesus instead. That in itself is immoral.
@politicoochie09 Wrong it shows you to be responsible for your own actions You see you have not read the bible. Anyone with morals and that inc Christians will apologise for the wrong doings before repenting of thier wrong doings to God. Have you given an better answers NO. In science Point out which atheist scientist and I will point out theist scientist Real and modern ones.
@ZeusHelios Christian “scientists” are not scientists at all. They are mostly apologists for Christianity. Those guys have been around for a long time and their scope of “knowledge” is shrinking every year.
@ZeusHelios I’m sure there are a few Christian scientists that are “real.” Like I said many many posts ago: People are able compartmentalize their beliefs. Some of these thoughts can be quite reliable, and some quite ridiculous – all this in the same head, the same brain. Look at you, you’re functional, and yet in this one area of your life, you’re delusional.
@politicoochie09 Maybe I'm delusional I will find out in time. But then maybe not. Maybe its you who just cannot go beyond the norm of life. You see I have had more than enough what we call supernatural And it does not matter what people will tell me I know without a doubt that it was real And sceince cant prove it was not any more than it can. There is the unmeasurable And I do not need sceince to tell me its real any more than I need it to tell me I can see.
@ZeusHelios YOU: "And it does not matter what people will tell me I know without a doubt that it was real." Do you know how many people sitting in insane asylums have said those exact same words? Too many to count. You are compartmentalizing your beliefs. You’re saying: “Santa Claus does magical things, but he’s not real. Jesus does magical things, but he IS real. They’re different!” Yet, both do things that defy physical laws. But you separate these & call Jesus’ magic “miracles.”
@politicoochie09 You will refuse to separate fiction from fact because you cannot comprehend the fact Saying its insanity or dillusional just because its similiar to dreams and visions, hullucination etc There is A big difference and you will know it if you knew it.
@ZeusHelios You just sound like a con-man. Or a drug dealer. “How do you know cocaine is bad until you try it?” I HAVE tried it (Christianity) and I had the delusions and the hallucinations, the magical thinking, and the scary faith-based belief. It was abandoned for something greater: Logic, Reason, Reality-Based Thought. YOU should try it sometime. How do you know Logic, Reason and Reality is bad until you try it?
@politicoochie09 Santa Claus has never claimed anything Jesus and his people have. Know the difference between facts and fairy tales Its easy to tell them apart if you look closely
@ZeusHelios No, Jesus making a claim, or people making a claim about Jesus does not automatically make those claims true. Again, Jesus and Santa Claus are in the same category if that’s the only counter-argument you have for it.
@politicoochie09 Chritians feel they have their proof and the proof is satifactory for them But it is not satifactory for you And they cannot provide the evidence that you want. So again I ask Just what evidence will satisfy you.
Zeus Helios. I value your opinion and would like to hear your personal counter-argument via video response or other method. However, taking over the comment section on another user's video is a bit disrespectful and will serve to counter your own opinion to ignorant individuals.
clank1 5 days ago
@clank1 It was not my intention to take over the comment section or appear disrespectful In fact I do not consider it disrespectful The comment section is for everyone as far as I know And if it is not It would help that the owner of the video would say so. If it come across as disrespectful Then I apologise for that I wanted to message politicoochie09 in his personal inbox but could not and was left to respond here. Please note if comments is made to me then surely I can respond to that comment
ZeusHelios 4 days ago
@clank1 Thanks for your advice. I do intend to do a video when I have completed my investigations. I would rather message people personaly when there is a long argument But sometimes I think their settings do not allow that. Thanks for the advice.
ZeusHelios 4 days ago
@ZeusHelios I understand. I'd be interested in seeing your video after you compile the necessary research.
clank1 4 days ago
@clank1 Cheers. You will be on my list for posting you my vid. Thanks
ZeusHelios 4 days ago
@ZeusHelios I'll be waiting.....
politicoochie09 4 days ago
@ZeusHelios .....unless you don't want me on your list.
politicoochie09 4 days ago
@politicoochie09 You will be on my list. People like you are on the top of my list. What I mean is that I like people who are searchers of truth.
ZeusHelios 4 days ago
little bit of slippery slope but a good argument
117DieHard 6 days ago
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Atheist want proof that God exist as Christian want from atheist proof that he does not.Neither can present sufficient evidence to convince each other Yet they have sufficient evidence to convince themselves
ZeusHelios 6 days ago
A person does not need proof to disbelieve. No they don't if they wish to disbelieve without reason or scientific facts. The burden of proof is on believers. Not necessarily. If a disbeliever is searching for truth then its up to them to find it. If I say there is a God and you disbelieve I can say then its up to a believer to proof his existence. But if that disbeliever wishes to find out the truth for himself then its up to the disbeliever
ZeusHelios 6 days ago
@ZeusHelios My request to you was, What is your reasons for disbelief. But You have failed to answer the question. You have presented no Logical or reasonable explanation for your disbelieve. Many Christians belive not by evidence but by personal experience and a personal relationship with Christ. If you want evidence you can search for it or request it from a Christian if they have any. Christains will try to help you to understand that evidence is not the whole goal for proof.
ZeusHelios 6 days ago
@ZeusHelios You make no sense. You really need to understand the definition of atheism. It is absence of belief in God, that's all it is, nothing more. Now, you need to understand what faith is. Faith is belief without evidence. An atheist has no faith because he has been presented with no evidence. We all are born atheists. It's the default position for all humans. We get the disease of religion and faith from our parents, just like you did.
politicoochie09 6 days ago
@politicoochie09 I make plenty of sense you just can't understand the question. You say you do not belive. OK that's fine but since God is spoken of for thousands of years to the present time. And there is a book about him Its not something you can just ignore and just say I do not belive you must have a reason to not belive just as you have a reason not to belive in Zeus. If your reason to not belive in God is the same as that of Zeus So be it But it is not a good reason.
ZeusHelios 5 days ago
@ZeusHelios No, you do not have "a" book about your God. You have a compilation of various "books" and you call it a book, but it's not. Your "book" wasn't even put together in the form you have until several hundred years after the death of Christ. Plus different denominations have different versions. AND, I can find you plenty of Rabbis that can show you exactly where you are wrong about where you THINK the Old Testament mentions Jesus when it clearly does not.
politicoochie09 5 days ago
@politicoochie09 A book or a compilation of books put together. Its a book or whatever you want to call it. Its information about God and his plan. When it was put together does not matter. Its here despite every attempt to destroy it. The bible mentioned Jesus from genesis . And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel. That's about Jesus striking the serpent head" That's defeating Satan at the cross
ZeusHelios 5 days ago
@ZeusHelios POINT 5: Again, get in touch with some learned Rabbis, people that know thousands of times more about the Old Testament than you ever will. They will very easily and logically refute your notion that Jesus is mentioned in Genesis or anywhere else in the Old Testament. You're probably afraid to do this because it will blow your preconceived notions about the Old Testament right out of the water, and this will shake your faith to the core.
politicoochie09 5 days ago
@politicoochie09 Jesus was spoken of in the bible from genesis and that cant be denied. End of. Show me proof that it does not. But I will double check as you have requested. I have been shown it by very learned and very educated Christians. I will be happy to let go of a belive if I was satisfied my belive was false Would you be willing to change yours if proven wrong or are your afraid to change your life. Im searching so I'm willing to change my belives.
ZeusHelios 4 days ago
@politicoochie09 Changing my belive would not concern me. So it would no tmatter to me if I was given satifactory evidence that God did not exist or the bible was incorrect. It will not shake me at all. But I can agree that it could shake the belives for others. I am searhcing as I said so I am happy to change.
ZeusHelios 4 days ago
@politicoochie09 Show me I will be interested. The bible is far more than what you think Look into it deeper and you will see and be amazed by it. There is a chain that runs from Adam to Christ throughout the bible. And many events in the old testament are linked to the coming of Jesus or of his mission.
ZeusHelios 5 days ago
@ZeusHelios POINT 6: I have looked "deeper" into the Bible. That's the problem. You can't reconcile any of it. It has too many contradictions. It's obviously written by ignorant men -- men who thought the stars were tiny, that the sky was a solid, that the earth was round but flat, that it was held up by pillars, that it had a dome above it with windows where God could look out at people. These were not metaphors. You have to have the REAL story first to even make a metaphor.
politicoochie09 5 days ago
@politicoochie09 That was men not God. who said these things. You need to understand the bible correctly. The four corners of the earth means North South East West. I and Christians can explain it all and you have probably already heard it all. but you reject the explanations because as I have said it does not satisfy you but it does satisfy many others. That is the problem we all have our own level of satisfactory evidence and it all fits in to logic for both sides Or its debatable.
ZeusHelios 4 days ago
@politicoochie09 Also we as children are taught about a God. Obviously otherwise we may not know him. Almost everything is taught by adults to children. True some may be false stuff like Santa clause, fairies etc, None of which have a plan or a book for humanity or speak about who we are and where we came from etc Faith without evidence is not necessarily requried for many Christians as I have said before They have a personal relationship with him. Thats where alot of their faith comes from
ZeusHelios 5 days ago
@politicoochie09 Not all Christians need the evidence when you have a personal relationship with God then for many Christians that is all the proof they need. That is what you need to understand. But you cannot understand unless you experience the personal relation with Christ. Then you will understand Christians. Athiest belive not in God for whatever reasons they dispute been told about him . But I have not yet heard your rreasons for for disbelive.
ZeusHelios 5 days ago
@ZeusHelios I know very well that Christians do not need evidence to have their "personal" relationship with Jesus (Yah-Zeus). But, I know you look both ways when crossing the street, don't you? You don't just walk out into the road, having faith that there are no cars coming, or that god will save you, otherwise you would have a "personal relationship" with a truck! If you look for evidence in life, why would you not seek it for this one thing you hold so dear -- the afterlife?
politicoochie09 5 days ago
@politicoochie09 As I said many Christians have thier evidence that is satisfactory for them. Others have a personal relationship with Christ which for them is even more than evidence and a big bonus. People do not need to look they can hear and if they cant hear they can ask for assistance. Now we have to trust that person and belive him that it is safe to cross, You are like the blind man who refuses to trust in the seeing man. Unless he can present evidence that it is safe to cross
ZeusHelios 5 days ago
@ZeusHelios POINT 4: I see perfectly fine. I know when to cross the street and when not to. I use evidence at my disposal (and my brain) to determine this. It's you that has "faith". Faith is a blind man pretending he can see. That's what you are doing, pretending you KNOW there are no cars coming, pretending you know when the next one will show up. But because you don't use your senses, you get lost, or worse, run over. You are currently lost in your delusion.
politicoochie09 5 days ago
@politicoochie09 You see with your eyes but fail to see truthfully with your mind and heart. If you were blind and deaf you will have to have faith in one person helping you cross the road. You will not stand there asking him to prove it is safe to cross. Yet millions of people tell you there is a God and you refuse to accept it. You think you know its safe to cross but you get run over because you cant see with your heart and mind. Who will you trust to help you your Mother or a stranger.
ZeusHelios 4 days ago
@ZeusHelios No, it is you that is still blinded by your God delusion. I see very clearly. Once I became an atheist, my eyes were opened. Life has REAL meaning now. I can live in the present moment and appreciate the beauty of life. Before, I was always worried about my past (my sins), or thinking about the future (the return of Jesus). It's like having a blindfold removed. I see things clearly now.
politicoochie09 4 days ago
@politicoochie09 I am not miserable neither do I fear the coming of Christ. Life for me still has meaning and challenges. If your belief caused you to fear etc then there was something wrong. I also appreciate the beauty of all things. You are searching and found your place as have Christians. It could be said that none are blind Just a different way of seeing things. I would appreciate it if you can message me persoanly and I you if we are gonna keep this up.
ZeusHelios 4 days ago
@politicoochie09 My point is God is love and has let us know what is safe and to trust him not men who are blind to the truth except he is shown the truth by God. From the beginning to the present. God has let us know of his presence. You can trust a God of love but not a man who can deceive you of what is truth because he is deceived himself and knows not the truth. except it be revealed to him by God
ZeusHelios 4 days ago
@politicoochie09 Millions of people are telling you there is a God but you been blind cannot see him and you wish to have evidence of him. Evidence that satisfies you.Yet there is sufficient evidence you do not trust or cannot see Neither does it satisfy you as been evidence. You want to cross the road but you do not trust the millions who tell you it is safe to cross. What evidence do you want that will satisfy you of Gods existence
ZeusHelios 5 days ago
@politicoochie09 Try and understand I am not asking you for evidence of a no God or of the truth of the bible. I am asking you for your reasons not to belive even though we have a book called the bible and God has been spoken about for thousands of years to this present time. You can stay an athiest but what is your reason not to belive. even though God has been spoken of so many time for thousands of years. I can't seem to message you in your inbox so I have to here.
ZeusHelios 5 days ago
@politicoochie09 By the way I have been blocked before by an athesit video and it would not surprise me if I get blocked from others to.
ZeusHelios 5 days ago
@ZeusHelios POINT 7: Have you bothered to watch (with an open mind) any of QualiaSoup's other YouTube videos? Try doing that. You might learn something. Especially the ones that discuss critical thinking and logic.
politicoochie09 5 days ago
Why would God create satan anyway.?
Jorryt29 1 week ago
I wonder what was the guy who wrote the story of adam and eve on.
mimikawaii7386 1 week ago
I think the first and major problem would be, if god desires love and equality, why does he discirminate good and evil through faith, rather then goodwill and harm? this way a christian burglar can get in heaven, and the kind ol'man downstreet faces eternal punishment for not commiting a crime
lycan156 1 week ago
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ZeusHelios 1 week ago
More giant blocks of recycled text!
canadianelite42 2 weeks ago
God and Adam. Adam disobeyed a command from God as a child might a parent Who would suffer the consequences of thier disobedience. Even if they did not know they were doing wrong. For example. A parent might say don't touch the fire or you will burn yourself. Yet the child ignores this and touches the fire and hurts itself. The child should have trusted the parent Just like Adam should have trusted God. The difference between the child and Adam is that Adam was not so naive. and unlike a child
ZeusHelios 2 weeks ago
@ZeusHelios You're an idiot. Watch the other videos by QualiaSoup so you can see why.
politicoochie09 1 week ago
@politicoochie09 Your comment did not go to my inbox for some reason. I spotted your comment while viewing another comment here. So do not know which comment you are referring to on here. If you are a Christian then you set a bad example by your judgment of people. If you are not a Christian then you calling me an idiot is not an intelligent argument and proves nothing If you have a point to make do so intelligently
ZeusHelios 1 week ago
@ZeusHelios A famous man once said: “If you must argue, remember that it is impossible to defeat an ignorant man in argument.” You are that ignorant man. You are trying to rationalize a story that is clearly fictional and make a case for it being an actual event. Anything you say in this regard is easily dismissed as foolish.
politicoochie09 1 week ago
@politicoochie09 A famous man once said. And you belive everything a famous man once said. That's not having a mind of your own. And you have proven once again that you failed to understand my messages. What message are you referring to. There is nothing you have said that is even an argument or even intelligent. If you have something to say then state what it is and to what you are referring to in my comments.
An ignorant man can be wised up when given the information he needs to wise him up
ZeusHelios 1 week ago
@ZeusHelios There you go with "belief" again. Don't "believe" what the "famous man" said, understand the truth of it. Again, your messages are lacking. They are all conjecture about a purely fictional tale and your spin on it is that it was a real event. You want me to engage you in a discourse about which parts are true or not true? That would be absurd. ALL of it is false. It's a made-up story. The missing element of intelligence here comes from you believing a fairy tale.
politicoochie09 1 week ago
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@politicoochie09 Also you stating its false and that's your argument is simply not a very clever argument. If you have something to say or argue about then state it. Saying its a waste of time or is absurd is unintelligent You have some something to prove then lets see it Otherwise dont waste anyone's time with your unintelligent comments. Simply because your reasoning makers it false to you does not make it false. You want an argument speak to those who know more on religion and the bible
ZeusHelios 1 week ago
@politicoochie09 Going by your comments to me you have nothing intelligent to say Christians would probably rip you apart if you got into an argument with them. If you wish to comment then comment with something worth commenting on. Saying its fake or absurd etc proves nothing in any way. If I do not get an intelligent comment from you then I will not be wasting any more of my time with you and your comments will have to be ignored.
ZeusHelios 1 week ago
@ZeusHelios I am SO worried about you ignoring my comments! LOL! You think dissecting a myth shows you to be "intelligent" and anyone that thinks it's a dubious endeavor is not. That just shows you to be either delusional (if you believe the myth to be true), or at the very least, boring for bothering to comment on it. I stand by my original assertion that you are wasting your time on a silly myth, no matter how "intelligently" you discuss the matter.
politicoochie09 1 week ago
@politicoochie09 Your comments are all the same. Saying what you say in them has no value whats so ever and no evidence. In fact its not even an argument. You are Just one of those people who think by using such comments as you do as an argument wins over Intelligent peoples arguments. There are many believers who are far more educated and intellegent than you. Go and tell them what you think and prove to them your reason for your disbelive. This is my last comment. All the best to you.
ZeusHelios 1 week ago
@ZeusHelios You still don't get it. I'm not trying to present ANY evidence. I'm saying that you trying to rationalize this stupid story, treating it as if it was a true event, is just stupid. YOU are the one not presenting anything intelligent by the very fact that you are trying to fill in the gaps about what supposedly happened in the Adam and Eve story as if it was an historical event. You may as well fill in the gaps in a story about the Care Bears, or Little Red Riding Hood.
politicoochie09 1 week ago
@politicoochie09 OK I couldn't resist replying to your last message First you have failed to understand my reasons for my comments on here even though I have tried to explain it. Secondly where are the gaps I am trying to fill in in my comments. I was stating the facts of what the scriptures had said. I'm not trying to explain anything away.
Also You say its a story where is your evidence for that belive. Calling it stupid is calling every one who belives in it including scientist stupid.
ZeusHelios 1 week ago
@ZeusHelios First, scientists DON'T believe in the Adam and Eve story. Not real ones. (Christian apologists don't count as real scientists.) I don't need to prove to you that it's just a story. You can try to prove that it's real if you want, but extraordinary tales require extraordinary proof. Talking snakes, and trees that give "knowledge" are extraordinary and the burden of proof is on your shoulders, not mine. Otherwise I will have you prove I don't have unicorns in my house.
politicoochie09 1 week ago
@politicoochie09 You can't call something a story or stupid if you cant prove its just a story. And saying its obvious etc is simply incorrect. Many educated and intelligent people accept the bible. As I have said You need to present evidence for your disbelief. Try and understand that last statement. And what evidence do you require from me. You can find it all out for your self There are plenty for and against the bible I suggest you study them then come to a decission.
ZeusHelios 1 week ago
@ZeusHelios Certainly, there are intelligent people that "accept" the Bible. Smart people CAN be delusional. Look in the mirror for one. Brains can compartmentalize just about anything. If I tell you I have magic dust in my pocket that when sprinkled on a cat will automatically make it bark like a dog, you wouldn't believe that, but at the same time, you think a snake talked to the first woman. You separate what you want to think is real. Same brain, different degree of sanity.
politicoochie09 1 week ago
@politicoochie09 That comment is just nonsense. Have you not read my messages. I doubt very much educated people can be so delusional as you make out. For they use good science historical data and good logical thinking. And they are real scientist. I was not asking you to prove to me the bible is true I was asking you to give me your reason for your disbelief. That is what I have been asking you for. And what proof do you have that leads you to disbelieve.
ZeusHelios 1 week ago
@ZeusHelios A person doesn't need proof to "disbelieve". A person needs the believer to prove his assertions about God. The burden of proof is on the person making the claim. You have presented no logical argument (and no one in history has either) that the Adam and Eve story is factual in any way at all. Now, if you want to discuss the story in the same manner as we would regarding the stories about Zeus and Athena, that's fine. Otherwise don't waste people's time.
politicoochie09 6 days ago
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ZeusHelios 6 days ago
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@politicoochie09 Evidence. You may simply refuse to accept it or the current evidence which is sufficient for many is not sufficient for you. You cannot present your own satisfactory proof as proof of none existence for others or Christians as Christians cannot present thier own satisfactory proof to you for Gods existence. Science has neither proved or disproved God. Zues does not continue today But God continues even today Thats the difference
ZeusHelios 6 days ago
@politicoochie09 You see All other gods have gone by except Yahweh and Jesus. No one has a personal relationship with any other god except with Christ. No book or bible exist for these gods except from Yahweh and none are like the bible. If you understand the bible you will know there is no book like it. And there is sufficient evidence of a great designer. Learn the bible and check out many YouTube videos for it as well as against it and you will see its not that easy to dismiss.
ZeusHelios 6 days ago
@ZeusHelios You do not have a personal relationship with an imaginary being. Not really. You think you do, but you're just talking to yourself. It has been scientifically proven that prayer is just as accurate as flipping a coin. Talk about wasting your time! And yes, I do understand the Bible, very well. Nothing will make an atheist quicker than reading that silly book. If God was such a great designer, he wouldn't have made so many mistakes.
politicoochie09 6 days ago
@politicoochie09 Your opinion and judgement is pointless to a christian A personal relationship with Christ has changed many peoples lives and helped them in many ways and even caused many miraculous healing. You do not understand the bible as you think you do niether can you for you do not have the spirit with you. Secoundly if you understood the bible you will know there is a connection from Adam to Christ throughout the bible. And you will understand many other amazing things about it.
ZeusHelios 5 days ago
@ZeusHelios Religion CAN serve a purpose. And it has changed many people's lives. (Not always for the better.) But if it can stop a killer from killing, or alter extreme bad behaviors in certain people, then I'm okay with it as a tool for such things. It still doesn't make it real. Santa Claus can serve a purpose if it makes children behave once a year, but it's not real. Psychotropic drugs can alter a persons behavior, but the real person isn't really there when they are on drugs.
politicoochie09 5 days ago
@politicoochie09 But Santa Claus and drugs dont make miracles. Neither do they change peoples lives for life. Children are not a good example. Good behaviour for a few days so Santa Claws brings a gift is hardly changing a child's life for life. You need to know the difference. The difference is deeper in a mans whole being. I am not talking about religion I'm talking about Christ. There is a difference.
ZeusHelios 5 days ago
@politicoochie09 Religion can change a man to do good and bad. But it cant change his heart where his life has changed forever. True Christians are not religious people they are people who have a true relationship with Christ and know how to live thier lives for the better.
ZeusHelios 5 days ago
@ZeusHelios POINT 2: Becoming a Christian is not guarantee of anything. Plenty of Christians go and do heinous things, but still claim to be Christian. The rest of the flock immediately denies this person was ever a Christian, abandoning him/her in the hour of need. I see it all the time. The deniers are worse than Peter denying Christ, saying things like, "He was never a REAL Christian!" as if they actually know what one really is. No one really knows. The isn't one true definition.
politicoochie09 5 days ago
@politicoochie09 True. Let me try and make it clear. A Christian who does not follow Gods commandments is not a Christian. A true Christian is one who is born of the spirit and has a personal relationship with God. If he falls short again of his relationship with God then he is no longer a true Christian. He can call himself a Christian but the truth is he is not.
ZeusHelios 4 days ago
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@ZeusHelios That's ridiculous. You said: "If he falls short again of his relationship with God then he is no longer a true Christian." That means you are also no longer a Christian over and over again everyday of your life! You "fall short" all the time. You can't tell me you're living a "perfect" life all the time just because you didn't kill someone today! You are so caught up in the circular logic of your religion, you're dizzy, and you can't find a way out!
politicoochie09 4 days ago
@politicoochie09 If it was a silly book and you do not belive it why did you read it And if you are an atheist why then do you look for evidence for it. If you can answer those question then surely you can answer the simple question as to why you do not belive in it other than your silly reason for thinking it is silly what is your logical or reasonable reason for not believing in it You do not appear to have one.
ZeusHelios 5 days ago
@ZeusHelios To the simpleton, I give a simple answer: I read the entire Bible because I used to be a Christian. And I do not look for evidence of God, that's your job. I will refute unsound logic when I find it (like with your posts), but I don't lose any sleep over it. My logical reason for NOT believing in theism is that it is not logical. Very simple. So simple, even you SHOULD be able to understand, but based on your previous ramblings, I do still have my doubts about that.
politicoochie09 5 days ago
@politicoochie09 Your logic is flawed and you have not presented to me your logic for your disbelief. To tell me its not logical might as well be the same as me saying God exists. Logic is based on your own logic and not based on true logic. Your own logic if checked against another persons logic will only result in an everlasting argument as it does now with atheist and theist. Yours is no better than theirs.
ZeusHelios 5 days ago
@ZeusHelios POINT 1: I did present my logic for "disbelief". I am at the default position. Imagine I am someone that was raised in a jungle and was never exposed to any ideas about any kinds of Gods or creators or anything. Then you come along and tell me there is an invisible God somewhere that I should believe in or bad things will happen. How are you going to convince me? You tell a pretty fantastic tale, so you better have some fantastic evidence, right? Well, you don't have any.
politicoochie09 5 days ago
@politicoochie09 Wrong If I told you a fantastic story and I wanted to convert you then yes its upto me to prove it. But if I left you with that story you can do one of 2 things forget or ignore it or find out if it is all true for yourself If you were in the jungle and I told you take cover there is gonna be an asteriod smashing into the jungle You can belive me or not If you belive me then you take cover or move from the place and you are saved. If you choose not to belive then you are doomed
ZeusHelios 4 days ago
@politicoochie09 If I wanted to make you belive and save you from the disaster Then I can show you pictures or show you the object through a telescope. But you will say that I am a liar and delusional and this telescope is false and I am trying to trick you to gain his land etc etc etc You will not belive no matter what. I show you the evidence but it is not satisfactory evidence to you You cannot undersatnd the workings of my telescope so you disbelive. -cont-
ZeusHelios 4 days ago
@politicoochie09 You see my point is if your life is in danger you can ignore the warnings or you can find out for yourself. Since I cant convince you and whatever evidence I have does not convince you then you have to decide if its worth finding out for your self. My telescope is not evidence to a jungle man. Gods presence is not evidence to you even though it is. The difference between fairies stories and myths is the bible which speaks of many things.
ZeusHelios 4 days ago
@ZeusHelios Again, you can teach the jungle man all about the telescope, how it works, what it does. He can take it apart, hold it, feel it, understand it with his senses. But, you cannot show him where Hell is, you can't show him your Jesus character other than pointing to a picture, but that's not the real person of Jesus, is it? It's just a piece of paper with an image of a man. You can't stand that fact that you can't prove the existence of your God in any manner to anyone.
politicoochie09 4 days ago
@politicoochie09 I expect this message from you. You see you failed to understand my message of the telescope. Before you could teach the jungle man everything about the telescope it would be to late. The point is why should he belive you. Yet you know the truth but he thinks your a fake. If millions of people came to him and said look out surely he would or would he think they are all delusional. God has said look out and million also. No time to study the telescope.
ZeusHelios 4 days ago
@ZeusHelios I got your message regarding the telescope quite clearly, but in the analogy it isn't God warning him, it's you. Big difference. An all-knowing loving God would give the jungle man plenty of time to study and understand. Only an evil god would wait until the last minute. But, in the story, YOU, not God, are standing on his land, and all you have is a book and a photo of Jesus and you are incapable of producing your god, or any evidence for him.
politicoochie09 4 days ago
@politicoochie09 I do not think you understood. My point is this. Millions are telling you and it all started from a loving God and millions today are telling you. Yet you still do not belive You have prayer and the bible and we have had it for thousands of years. You have had plenty of time. The jungle man story was merely trying to point out when he should belive. -cont-
ZeusHelios 4 days ago
@politicoochie09 -cont- and why. If there is no time to find out or we cannot find the truth through mankind. then who do we trust. Surely we trust a loving God who has made him self known to us through the bible and through his people. The jungle man might not belive the one man but will he the millions who speak of a God. And if a man tells his son there is a God for he has seen him and his father loves his son should he belive his father. God has spoken to us through Jesus and his prophets
ZeusHelios 4 days ago
@ZeusHelios Just because millions believe in something doesn't make it real. Millions have believed the world was flat and they were wrong. Millions believed the sun revolved around the earth and they were wrong. Millions still believe an invisible being has "a personal relationship" with earthlings, and they are wrong also. In the end you have no proof. The default position is no god until proven to exist. Parents have been lying to their children for generations. It's time to stop.
politicoochie09 4 days ago
@politicoochie09 Well said!
JustinHEMI05 4 days ago
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@JustinHEMI05 Hi I don't wont to start a long debate with you. Not here any way if you wish to debate then private inbox me. I am sending you this message. Earth is 6,000 Years Old by truthmakesfree Watch it if you wish I will be interesed to know your thought on it. I personaly do not think earth is 6,000 years old.
ZeusHelios 3 days ago
@politicoochie09 Millions of people believed and they were wrong. TRUE. But they dont now. that's what is different. God has survived for thousands of years to the present time. No one has a bible on flat earth or sun revolving around earth etc. Good few years ago I prayed and God answerd me. Maybe it was imaginery maybe it was not.But when do I belive somehting is real. Do I only belive when I see him Then I might say I imagined it I ask when do I or you or anyone decide when something is real.
ZeusHelios 3 days ago
@ZeusHelios You should study mental disorders and understand how powerful the human imagination is. Many people see things that aren't there, or hear voices that aren't there, or imagine some entity is in a room with them when it just isn't true. Religious "experiences" are quite similar. The mind is very good at deception even when it's deceiving itself. The reason humans are at the top of the food chain is because of our ability to deceive other mammals.
politicoochie09 3 days ago
@politicoochie09 I know to well about the brains amazing abilities. And if I were to speak of them here we would begin another argument. And besides Hallucinations illusions etc etc are one thing And as you can most of the time you can tell reality from imagination so can experience tell you the real from the unreal even if that real is of the supenatural kind Its something you have not experience so you may not know it or understand it.
ZeusHelios 3 days ago
@ZeusHelios Here's the bottom line: Get a telescope and look at the stars. Do some math regarding the size and distance of those stars relative to the earth. If you can comprehend the magnitude of what you discover, you will also see that whatever it was that made the Trillions of stars and the Billions of galaxies could not possibly be your Yahweh/Jesus. A creator that can do that doesn't get jealous, it doesn't command tribes to carry out genocide, and it needs no resurrection.
politicoochie09 3 days ago
@politicoochie09 Do what you ask me to do and ask could it all really happen by chance. Look and think and see how it all appears to be a design of an intelligence. If it can happen by chance then why not by an intellegence. Look at what we can do and compare it to just a 100yrs ago and a 1000yrs ago Think what we will be able to do in a thousand years time We are gods to the ancients And in a 1000yrs time they will be like gods to us. Now why not a God who created the universe.
ZeusHelios 2 days ago
@politicoochie09 You say this world is real. How do you know? Because of your five senses. But if you were given yet another sense to experience the world. Would you call it imagination or would you accept it as real. Just because you never lived with another kind of experience or sense does not mean it does not exist. If you could not see and suddenly you can see would you deny what you can see now.
ZeusHelios 3 days ago
@ZeusHelios Fine. Prove that the "other sense" exists. I'll wait right here while you gather your research.....
politicoochie09 3 days ago
@politicoochie09 Just saw this message. read my message. Your life is entirely based on science to reveal to you what is real and not real Be Careful there you might miss out on something. There was no sceince as we know it 100's of years ago. Just experience of life that everyone trusted. True some experiences may have been imaginary but there are those that are as real as any experience we have had that has given us the gudiance we needed.
ZeusHelios 2 days ago
@ZeusHelios No, again, you are making false assumptions (you do this often, I see). I do not rely on science for everything in my life. I can see a flower, know its beauty, and not have a clue about how it grows in a particular climate or how much chlorophyll it contains. But, I could use science to find out. Again, extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. I can prove the flower exists, but you cannot prove God exists.
politicoochie09 1 day ago
@politicoochie09 Yes you can prove the flower exist because we all share the same senses But if I had a telescope to enhance my vision and you did not and I told you the moon has craters you probably would never belive me. If you did not know. Now If I have the ability to know God personaly by some other rmeans you have not yet experienced Why should mine be a fake and yours be real because you have not seen. -cont-
ZeusHelios 1 day ago
@ZeusHelios Yours is fake because you have to first show us your sixth sense—prove that you communicate with your god with this fabulous tool, so we can all be amazed. You can’t. But science can show your brain pattern when you are in a delusional state. Science can show that your state of being when you are in full belief mode is simply the brain tricking itself to believe non-sense.
politicoochie09 1 day ago
@politicoochie09 Science is God to you. You believe it even if it were wrong or if it could not measure something or test something or prove something.You will not belive. Such a narrow mind. That you will only belive what can be proven. I have answered you that question How can I answer you if you do not listen and understand. You have prayer as a tool. And besides that there are many things in life that tell you there is more than what we can see and experience-cont-
ZeusHelios 1 day ago
@ZeusHelios Again, stop trying to analyze what I am, or what I’m thinking. I’m telling you what I am, but you insist on adding labels and assumptions. Science is not my god. Science is a tool that I use to verify my reality. That’s all it is to anybody. You trying to equate what other people are, based on your backward assumptions, is typical of Christian “logic” but it’s always wrong. Watch "Arguing With Ghosts" by QualiaSoup to understand what you just did. (Access above.)
politicoochie09 13 hours ago
@politicoochie09 It took an extra instrument to pick up infrared. You would have never believed it before until it was proven. That is your problem. Only if it can be proven will you belive But your disbelief in infrared would not have made it unreal It is real. Maybe sceince will find something for people like you that could find God and then you might belive. My prove to you can not come to you in a sceintifc experimnet I'm afraid You have prayerand the bible and you can take it or leave it.
ZeusHelios 1 day ago
@ZeusHelios Infrared is an invention of man, just like prayer is. But infrared works, prayer does not. Again, you are trying to assign something to your feelings and emotions way beyond what they actually are. Feelings are just feelings. Emotions are just emotions. If you had some special power to communicate with a “god” we should be able to measure that. Why? Because we live in the physical world, not the fantasy world.
politicoochie09 13 hours ago
@politicoochie09 How do you know that you can measure everything in the physical world. How do you know that there is not yet things to be discovered that has not been measured or maybe cannot be measured with what we currently have. Again you put your faith in current sceince and not realising that future sceince may show there is more
ZeusHelios 12 hours ago
@politicoochie09 Now I can show you the telescope to enhance your vision and see for yourself But if you were short sighted or blind you still lwill not belive. You can have the telescope and see for your self You can have prayer and see for yourself Its up to you to use the telescope and see.Its upto you to pray with your heart and see
ZeusHelios 1 day ago
@ZeusHelios The telescope is something I can identify with my senses. I don’t need an extra imaginary sense to identify it. You’re trying to posit that people that don’t believe like you do are “blind” to your extra sense, but without any reliable ability to measure it, it’s just mumbo-jumbo YOUR brain has produced, and there is no reason to accept it based on such flimsy evidence. And multiple people with the same delusion proves nothing. Anyone can make a claim. Few can prove them.
politicoochie09 1 day ago
@politicoochie09 Yes but you can identify with Christians personal relationship with Christ. You see I have given you a telescope and you refuse to look through it. How then will you ever know. You can pray from your heart and it is guaranteed that you will know what Christian are talking about. You can call it an extra imaginary sense if you like but then You have never experienced it so you reject it Because the world for you is limited to your five senses. -cont-
ZeusHelios 1 day ago
@politicoochie09 But if a blind man should suddenly see Why should he belive the millions who tell him that it is vision.A fifth sense that will help him understand the world around him better. Or should he only belive when science tells him it is vision. Or will he belive the millions who tell him without the sceince. He will get use to his vision and learn to trust it Just as Christians trust their personal relationship with God
ZeusHelios 1 day ago
@ZeusHelios Furthermore, prayer has been scientifically shown to be just as accurate as flipping a coin. It doesn’t change anything for REAL. It may make the people that did the praying feel better, but that’s about it. I know I know you’ll say you’ve seen real people healed with prayer, but that’s actually called “coincidence” (look it up, seriously), or it’s called having a good doctor.
politicoochie09 1 day ago
@politicoochie09 No wrong you need to do more searching . Prayer of the kind you mentioned is not true prayer. True prayer to God from your heart cannot be done in some lab. How can that be a real prayer. Understand true prayer is from the heart. And probably cannot be measured in a lab Unless the person prayed form his heart in truthfulness That is that it is really from his heart that he is praying.
ZeusHelios 1 day ago
@ZeusHelios The prayer research wasn't done in a lab. It was measured in hospitals on real patients with life-threatening illnesses. The people praying were sincere Christians concerned about the health of the patients. The prayers made no difference.
politicoochie09 12 hours ago
@politicoochie09 What proof do you and I and everyone else want to convince us all. How should the proof be revealed to us so that we trust it and believe. There are many things we trust what we are told not knowing for sure if it is true. We just accept it as true But is it. I'd say that unless we know the complete sceince behind things that leaves no doubt then we may be able to know for sure. Experience may play a part in believing But for some that also would be doubted.
ZeusHelios 3 days ago
@ZeusHelios People "know in their heart" that Jesus is real, but here they even start out with something that isn't real. The ancient writers of the Bible thought the heart was where people's emotions and thoughts came from and were certain that the brain was a useless organ. Boy, were they wrong! This idea has, wrongly, survived to the present. But, now we know that the heart only pumps blood, and reacts to the BRAIN producing emotional states. Religious experience is emotional.
politicoochie09 3 days ago
@politicoochie09 Our hearts do more than pump blood. From it we have many feelings Now do'nt tell me those feeling are in the brain Because so is pain. And the heart will repond to those feelings. And besides it does not matter where you feel the feeling in your brain,heart or in your toes The fact is there are feeling that have a function and that it can reveal truth to us as well as many other things.-cont-
ZeusHelios 3 days ago
@ZeusHelios No, your heart only pumps blood. If your heart skips a beat when you hear the name of your sweetheart, it came from your ears recording that name, sending it to your brain, with your brain sending adrenaline to your heart, and your heart skipping a beat. It's biological. Emotions can create biological reactions in just about any part of the body, with the heart being the most noticeable, but it's still a physiological reaction to a stimulus via the senses.
politicoochie09 3 days ago
@politicoochie09 Exactly So its a reaction and it does not matter where it came from and where it went or where you felt it. It was as real as you experienced it. As real as sight as real as hearing as real as any of the five senses that we know and trust. Its what we have that gives us the information we need about the world around us Either You failed to understand my message otherwise I didn't see your point in That comment Its all what we experience. Some Of us experience something else God.
ZeusHelios 2 days ago
@ZeusHelios So, you do understand that experience with our five senses is all we have. You don’t seem to understand that those senses are sometimes unreliable and that we can sometimes come up with the wrong conclusions. Our senses are the BEST way to understand our world, but they are not perfect. Your problem is that you experience a feeling and then expand that to ridiculous heights of infinity and call it “God.” This is a great example of the unreliability I’m talking about.
politicoochie09 1 day ago
@politicoochie09 It may be that our sense can be unreliable But they have done us well for thousands of years and for evolutionist for millions of years Now if they were so unreliable surely no creature would have survived And none have relied on sceince to get them through to this day. Even scientist at times been wrong or there equipment have not been so reliable. Sorry but sceince is just another tool to what we have already and we can use both to know the world
ZeusHelios 1 day ago
@ZeusHelios Sure, our senses have done very well in helping us to evolve. But many times, primitive man thought the rustling in the leaves HAD to be a lion, but later he discovered it was a dog. (Or vice versa.) Primitive Man was Basic Man. He had very basic knowledge and understanding of his world, and almost zero knowledge of anything outside his planet. He learned to write, and much of what he wrote he called one thing, when in reality it was something else.
politicoochie09 1 day ago
@politicoochie09 This comment has already been answered. Sure we learn as we go on. But how did we get this far with just what we had well before sceince and for a long time before. And so has millions of animals none have sceince Just the tools of nature to tell them of the world around them. And they have shown remarkable abilities some with senses beyond ours. We have just learned about them. We may one day learn the science behind prayer if that is possible. Senses we may yet discover in us.
ZeusHelios 1 day ago
@ZeusHelios You will have to evolve a sixth sense. Science has shown there is no such thing. Maybe someday humans will have that ability, but right now they do not. Again, I have already addressed this. Science has already shown that prayer is not a sixth sense, and it’s no more useful than flipping a coin.
politicoochie09 13 hours ago
@politicoochie09 Science has proven nothing of the sort And the fact that you say humans may one day have that ability at least shows you are willing to admit that there is a possiblity of something more
ZeusHelios 12 hours ago
@politicoochie09 Also why do atheist always say it is JUST. Of course it is just a brain function or a bilogical function If it were not so we would not be here. But that does not mean these function are not essential I'm sure I need not tell you the importance of body functionS. Brain, heart etc And these important body functions telll us about our world like our eyes,ears taste touch FEELINGS etc
ZeusHelios 3 days ago
@ZeusHelios No, we could still exist if we only had biological functions and tiny brains. But we have evolved large brains and have become conscious, sentient beings, able to go beyond basic functions. No one is denying that. But, you are trying to apply significance to happenstance feelings, or you are misapplying meaning to deliberate feelings. This is common. The problem arises when you remain in that state and do not think through (analyze) those feelings rationally.
politicoochie09 3 days ago
@politicoochie09 You fail to understand experience of life Tell me now that you have not learned from experience. And it has been the main part of your life in your learning. All function like the eyes help you to learn and experience the world around you . And its something you have learned to trust. How would you know that some people may have experienced something more than what you are use to. -cont-
ZeusHelios 2 days ago
@politicoochie09 -cont- You cannot say they are delusional any more than you can say a blind person who learns to see is delusional. How would you know Perhaps it you who is in the wrong state of thinking. If you experience something is it always false is hearing and seeing also false could anyone explain it scientifically 100's of years ago yet they trusted what they experienced with those senses. You have always experienced it and use to and learned to trust it. see with their -cont-
ZeusHelios 2 days ago
@politicoochie09 Why should others be denied of what they have experienced and learned to trust because you have not experienced it and learned to trust. Oh science cant explain it but neither could it explain things 100's of years ago but people didn't deny what they experienced back then. Science may have some explantions but it cant and does not yet explain everything and if it could it will not deny the supernatural or God. When it has advanced it will accept God in the end
ZeusHelios 2 days ago
@politicoochie09 But you can wait till sceince tells you everything before you belive anything. You did not rely on science to trust your sight But you can wait till it explains God before you accept it that is your choice. As for many we already know there is more to the five senses and more to the universe than blind chance. Keep searching.
ZeusHelios 2 days ago
@politicoochie09 Jesus was real and there is proof of that outside the bible. And the fact that a man called Jesus who was honest and a good man who spoke of God must have a lot to say about Gods existence and he knew God more than any one of us past and present. And the mistakes ancient people made in science is not evidence of a lack of Gods existence.
ZeusHelios 3 days ago
@ZeusHelios There is scant proof of Jesus outside of the Bible, most of it very questionable. Someone that was supposed to be so amazing should have hundreds of historical references. He does not. Sure, there probably was an itinerant preacher in Palestine back then with a similar name, but that doesn't make him a god. A real god, one that made everything, would have much more amazing things to say and do, way more than the often confused and fickle Jesus.
politicoochie09 3 days ago
@politicoochie09 That is your own way of thinking Who are you to say what God will say and do. Perhaps if you read the bible without your attention on one particular thing but keep your attention open to all things in the bible then you might understand it better. You saying thaa shows me and Chritians that even thoughh you have read the bible you have not understood it. The proof is there check it out and see for your self.
ZeusHelios 2 days ago
@ZeusHelios No, I have read the Bible with an open mind. I was once a born-again Christian and a true believer. (I know you will immediately reply with, “Oh, but you weren’t REALLY a Christian, otherwise you’d still be one.” I know that tired old line and it’s completely unfounded and a lie because you have NO idea what was in my mind at the time.) NOW, I have seen the REAL light, and I know logic and reason is truth, and Christianity is a falsehood.
politicoochie09 1 day ago
@politicoochie09 True you weren't a true Christian because if you were yes you will still be one today. That is the thing about people they think they are true Christians because they go to church and read the bible and that is that But had you had a relationship with Christ you would never have left Christianity. What was on your mind say so.
ZeusHelios 1 day ago
@ZeusHelios Again, you are flat out wrong. In my mind, just as what is in yours is today, I truly believed in Jesus and had that “relationship” you’re talking about. You’re insulting me if you tell me I didn’t actually believe what I thought was real. I know now that it was NOT real, and I know that your relationship with Jesus isn’t real either – you just haven’t awakened from your delusion, like I have. But, I have no doubt that you THINK it is real.
politicoochie09 1 day ago
@politicoochie09 You did not say that you had a relationship with Christ. Tell me about it so I can see if your past relationship with Christ is the real one that I know about. And if you realy did have the true relationship I am talking about Then what was it that drove you away. I would be honestly very interested.
ZeusHelios 1 day ago
@ZeusHelios If you want to know how I felt about my Christianity, think about how you feel about Jesus right now… it was pretty much the same. One thing Christians do have in common is the same rapt enthusiasm for their god. There’s nothing else I can tell you about it that would suffice, and you are not in a position to judge what is real about such an experience.
politicoochie09 13 hours ago
@politicoochie09 Yes I am in that position to judge your experience if real or not. The very fact that you have little to say about it and have made such a vague explanation on it shows me that you have never felt the true spirit of God and have never had a close relationship with Christ. For if you did you would be with no doubt about your experience and you would explain it in such a way that it would be amazing. It will be hard to explain at and at the same time you will explain it
ZeusHelios 12 hours ago
@ZeusHelios No, you do not have the ability to discern whether what I believed was “right” or “wrong” because you can only base it on your own experience, which will be just different enough for you to make your pre-determined conclusion that it’s wasn’t the “right” one. You’ve already made up your mind on it, you’ve just looking for something to pin it on. Your bias precedes you. And you can’t escape it.
politicoochie09 12 hours ago
@politicoochie09 I know people who have been changed by thier relationship with Christ. And belive me they were not so good people but prayed for help and they were changed. They were atheist Who simply tried prayer and asked that if he was real then to reaveal himself.
ZeusHelios 1 day ago
@ZeusHelios There are two kinds of non-believers: Those that have never had much exposure to it and simply never regarded religion as something to think about – those are “easy-pickins” (or should I say victims?) for the proselytizing Christian. Then there are others, like me, that have actually studied both sides and have come to the conclusion that Christianity is a delusion-of-self. You’re encountering lots of the former, not the latter.
politicoochie09 1 day ago
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@politicoochie09 I am talking about Christ not religion Any way no point in going on untill I get your reply from your past relationship with Christ comment that I send you. Which was-- You did not say that you had a relationship with Christ. Tell me about it so I can see if your past relationship with Christ is the real one that I know about. And if you realy did have the true relationship I am talking about Then what was it that drove you away. I would be honestly very interested
ZeusHelios 1 day ago
@ZeusHelios As I’ve said before, religion can change people (but not always for the better.) If you are an habitual criminal, a murderer in prison, then, yes, religion could be a change for the better and I’m fine with that. But, if you are basically a good person, a thinking person, minding your own business, then religion is useless. A thinking person can change in positive ways without the need for Iron Age fairy tales.
politicoochie09 1 day ago
@politicoochie09 Since science is not complete on the subject of God then neither of us can be 100% certain Some born again Christian may feel 100% sure of their experience believing without a doubt. Who is lying.Parents or evolutionist and atheist who is to tell for sure. It appears we all have our own reasons to choose to belive Chritians reason are not enough for you and yours are not enough for them. I could go on but enough space has been taken up here. All the best to you.
ZeusHelios 3 days ago
@ZeusHelios "Feelings" and being "100% sure" of those feelings are still just emotive states of being and are very unreliable. People let their emotions run away with them and are usually incapable of perceiving reality. This is simply a fact that is undeniable. And even when they are wrong, even when they are presented with evidence that their feelings, emotions, and conclusions about those emotions are wrong, those persons still will often cling to those falsehoods anyway.
politicoochie09 3 days ago
@politicoochie09 You have had feeling and you cannot deny that Yet those feeling told you something true. Experience is one way of knowing the truth. If you see a pregnant women How do you know she is pregnant. From experience not from sceince. Though sceince can confirm her pregnancy. A lot of our lives is feelings and much as thoughts. And those felings reveal truth to us.
ZeusHelios 3 days ago
@ZeusHelios Knowing a woman is pregnant comes not from feelings, but from using one of your senses -- your eyesight. Plain and simple. That's not a "feeling." If you guess she is pregnant and she's not showing, then there are other subtle, subconscious clues that guide you in that direction, but the input is still through your senses and to your brain. It's not a "feeling." You can label it that all you want, but it's still not true. Experience is through the senses, nothing more.
politicoochie09 3 days ago
@politicoochie09 You have agreed with me without even knowing it. All Senses and experience play a part in what we understand in the world. Information is experienced or learned through one thing within us and that includes feelings and experiences You see you have said it and agreed with me. Subtle subconsious clues that guide you in that direction Yet you accept it and trust it But refuse to accept it from others when relating to God and the supernatural.
ZeusHelios 2 days ago
@politicoochie09 If one of the five senses were missing they will have only the remaining ones to know the world around them Yet they will trust those remaining If they regularly experienced another sense to add to thier current ones Will they not know from experience that it is real And you can say to they are delusional etc but they know its real Why should they rely on scince to tell them when their own experiences tells them Science was not and is not there for us all the time to know truth
ZeusHelios 2 days ago
@politicoochie09 Earth is 6,000 Years Old by truthmakesfree Watch it if you wish I will be interesed to know your thought on it. I personaly do not think earth is 6,000 years old.
ZeusHelios 3 days ago
@ZeusHelios Any video regarding the Earth being 6000 years old is going to be something I've already heard hundreds of times. Unless you can point to something new about it, I have no reason to watch it. The fossil record and DNA sequencing proves that evolution is the most likely way life progressed to the present state. DNA, especially, shows that humans and dinosaurs did not exist at the same time.
politicoochie09 3 days ago
@politicoochie09 Watch it anyway and let me know your thoughts on it anyway. You have spent enough time on here with me so I'm sure it wont be to much for you to watch this video Its not brilliant But it does point out a few things.
ZeusHelios 3 days ago
@politicoochie09 One other thing about the telescope. They might be suspicious of your telescope and think you have manufactured something evil. Believe me it is a true story but with a television not a telescope. Now how you gonna convince him if he thinks that. You will have to reeducate him first If you had the time before the flood/ comet strikes. His mind might be such he wont be so easily convinced Same goes with atheist and theist. But would he belive millions includng his own kind.
ZeusHelios 4 days ago
@politicoochie09 If I said to a jungle man its gonna flood here and I have no means to prove it to him except satellite pics he will still disbelieve what I show him as false because he cannot understand anything I show him. If God came to you and showed himself to you You will say It was a dream or I have lost it You see the evidence is there if you see it with your mind and your heart. But you deny it as insuffient evidence. Pray and ask God to reveal the truth to you
ZeusHelios 4 days ago
@ZeusHelios See this is where Christians get lost. If I give you an example that concerns itself with the spiritual realm, you come back with something in the physical realm as an answer. And vice versa. In the jungle-man scenario, telling him his spirit will go to hell if he doesn't accept Jesus as dictator, is very different than telling him a flood is coming. If you're talking about oranges, stay with oranges, don't switch to apples. It shows very poor debating skills.
politicoochie09 4 days ago
@politicoochie09 You want answers to what you want to hear and not the real answers. What is the difference hell or a flood it will kill him just the same I do not belive in hell by the way. I will tell the jungle man about God and the bible and many things of God for him to make up his own mind. If he wants evidence in the same way as you do besides what I give him Then that's for him to find if he so wishes. I am not here to convert you. Christians might and yes they should provide the proof.
ZeusHelios 4 days ago
@ZeusHelios But you never give any real answers to anything. You just ramble on about how someone got a feeling in their heart and now they believe that some guy that lived 2000 years ago is a God, but this god refuses to ever show himself. Somehow he "died" and that allows you to not be responsible for your immoral behaviors anymore. People rape and kill, but they no longer have to ask their victims for forgiveness, they have to ask Jesus instead. That in itself is immoral.
politicoochie09 4 days ago
@politicoochie09 Wrong it shows you to be responsible for your own actions You see you have not read the bible. Anyone with morals and that inc Christians will apologise for the wrong doings before repenting of thier wrong doings to God. Have you given an better answers NO. In science Point out which atheist scientist and I will point out theist scientist Real and modern ones.
ZeusHelios 2 days ago
@ZeusHelios Christian “scientists” are not scientists at all. They are mostly apologists for Christianity. Those guys have been around for a long time and their scope of “knowledge” is shrinking every year.
politicoochie09 1 day ago
@politicoochie09 Yes there are real Christian scientist I even know one. And this person works for Nasa.
ZeusHelios 1 day ago
@ZeusHelios I’m sure there are a few Christian scientists that are “real.” Like I said many many posts ago: People are able compartmentalize their beliefs. Some of these thoughts can be quite reliable, and some quite ridiculous – all this in the same head, the same brain. Look at you, you’re functional, and yet in this one area of your life, you’re delusional.
politicoochie09 1 day ago
@politicoochie09 Maybe I'm delusional I will find out in time. But then maybe not. Maybe its you who just cannot go beyond the norm of life. You see I have had more than enough what we call supernatural And it does not matter what people will tell me I know without a doubt that it was real And sceince cant prove it was not any more than it can. There is the unmeasurable And I do not need sceince to tell me its real any more than I need it to tell me I can see.
ZeusHelios 1 day ago
@ZeusHelios YOU: "And it does not matter what people will tell me I know without a doubt that it was real." Do you know how many people sitting in insane asylums have said those exact same words? Too many to count. You are compartmentalizing your beliefs. You’re saying: “Santa Claus does magical things, but he’s not real. Jesus does magical things, but he IS real. They’re different!” Yet, both do things that defy physical laws. But you separate these & call Jesus’ magic “miracles.”
politicoochie09 13 hours ago
@politicoochie09 You will refuse to separate fiction from fact because you cannot comprehend the fact Saying its insanity or dillusional just because its similiar to dreams and visions, hullucination etc There is A big difference and you will know it if you knew it.
ZeusHelios 12 hours ago
@ZeusHelios You just sound like a con-man. Or a drug dealer. “How do you know cocaine is bad until you try it?” I HAVE tried it (Christianity) and I had the delusions and the hallucinations, the magical thinking, and the scary faith-based belief. It was abandoned for something greater: Logic, Reason, Reality-Based Thought. YOU should try it sometime. How do you know Logic, Reason and Reality is bad until you try it?
politicoochie09 12 hours ago
@politicoochie09 Santa Claus has never claimed anything Jesus and his people have. Know the difference between facts and fairy tales Its easy to tell them apart if you look closely
ZeusHelios 12 hours ago
@ZeusHelios No, Jesus making a claim, or people making a claim about Jesus does not automatically make those claims true. Again, Jesus and Santa Claus are in the same category if that’s the only counter-argument you have for it.
politicoochie09 12 hours ago
@politicoochie09 Chritians feel they have their proof and the proof is satifactory for them But it is not satifactory for you And they cannot provide the evidence that you want. So again I ask Just what evidence will satisfy you.
ZeusHelios 4 days ago