Truth of the Times 4 - The Sun VS The Snake (An in depth Zeitgeist Movie Response and Review)

[1980jandres]

Zeitgeist has 3 phases. Religion, 9/11, and Federal Reserve bank. This documentary suggests that religion is used to control mass opinion. Opinion is used to support wars, which make money, and the Reserve is behind it all. SO not finding a phrase "the sun was the most adorned object of all time" is meaningless! Don't tell people what to think. PEOPLE don't listen to ME either. Watch Zeitgeist, research on your own, and form YOUR OWN opinion. This guy wants to shape your belief not help u

[1980jandres]

Not done yet.......Peter Joseph is merely stating the sun played a part, like other stars, for some reason, in the big picture. The fact people were compelled to track the movements of these objects. Which leads into the conversation of the zodiac, and the cross, etc. Zeitgeist has a direction to it. It flows. For the uneducated to get a summary of the big picture, and then do research on their own. You can't disprove a whole documentary by picking apart a figurative irrelevant statement.

[1980jandres]

Ok.....first of all, you evaluated pieces of 10 minutes worth of a 2hr movie. Then spent all but a minute and a half attempting to discredit the entire documentary based on the first paragraph! Not really that fair......SO first let me point out that the sun IS a star, you retard. Next, the Egyptians buried their rulers in Pyramids. They believed each ruler to be the reincarnation of the god Horus, or THE SUN. Show me another thing on Earth (also aligned to stars) inspired by NOT the sun.

[FORMETOKNOWONLY]

Zeitgeist is undoubtedly inspired by theosophist/satanist philosophy. A word to the wise is sufficient.

[boumar19721972]

Only 23 billion people.ONLY.LOL!

[royme55]

The white noise of witch I speak is my point. I hate you people that will seize the smallest detail. You try and make a little piece huge to avoid the fact that the whole is greater than the sum of it's parts. If it isn't obvious to you that the maker of this film is just blowing smoke up your ass, you are beyond help. I don't know why I get into these debates. You can't win against an idiot they just drag you down to their level and beat you with experience. DONE

[VinnfordSansbury]

@royme55 Every detail is greatly important in this case and I would not label the foundations of these sources as small ones. I was just reading an article today which discussed the mistranslation of one Japanese verb which gave the USA the impression that they should drop the atomic bomb immediately back in WWII. So far we've covered that Horus, Krishna and Dionysus are not pre-cursor versions of Christ. That is a HUGE foundation of Mr. Joseph's film. How can you call these details small?

[royme55]

What you are spouting is just white noise AKA bullshit. If you want the whole debate settled in just a few minutes by a very brilliant man. Just look up George Carlin - Religion is bull shit on Youtube he sums it up in terms that even the simplest of minds can understand. He voices my total thoughts on religion.

[VinnfordSansbury]

@royme55 What is there to debate? This video indicates that several sources were cited incorrectly and that Mr. Joseph should have researched the subject to a greater extent, checking his sources for errors and inconsistencies. Therefore, his argument is flawed. What is YOUR argument sir/ma'am?

[royme55]

This commentary is one of the most stupid thing I have ever "started to watch". The logic he presents is so flawed it is laughable. Don't waste your time. If you have half a brain you can see he is an idiot. The term worship the sun is a general term. I think every human that has walked on this earth has at one time been a worshiper. Maybe not praying to the sun but at least realizing that all things come from it indirectly. Without it this would be a ball of ice spinning in a black cosmos.

[VinnfordSansbury]

@royme55 I believe you have a very loose use for the term, "Worship", one that does not apply to the majority of English speakers. From Dictionary d0 t c 0m:

–verb (used with object)

6. to render religious reverence and homage to.

7. to feel an adoring reverence or regard for (any person or thing).

Worship in the common usage requires a relgious framework and the assumption or belief that the object/person is aware of the worship

[royme55]

@VinnfordSansbury Does the term worship the ground she walks on ring a bell? You don't think someone would pray to a patch of ground do you? It is a term use to show reverence as well. The main reason people don't like the Zeitgeist is that it gives very logical reasons to not believe in a "God ".God is nothing more than mans need to explain things. There is no God other than in the minds of dependent humans. We need to put aside such childish things and grow as a race.

[VinnfordSansbury]

@royme55 The term you refer to is an exaggeration meant to illustrate a point. An idiom. Not the commun usage of the word. The actual word in the film is "adoration" a specific type of worship. Given the religious framing of the film, I highly doubt Mr. Joseph meant for it to be taken any other way, although given the fact English is so broken, I suppose he could. The framework would make such a comment ill-placed. The reasoing is just historicaly wrong. If it were true it WOULD be logical.

[RForman12]

ugh.. without the sun , there would be no animals.

[210Ninja]

@RForman12 This is of course very apparent to a well educated person like yourself who logically follows the chain of sunlight-photosynthesis-plant-­life-animal-life. However, imagine you had no idea that the sun was a key ingrediant to this recipe and you lived in a cave. Your scope of survival in this chain would probably be a lot smaller until you discovered farming and observed the sun-plant relationship daily.

[axe414]

LOL i know you won'T say it openly but... Freemasons are freaking demons :) They won't get me and be careful all! They will come out and try to catch your soul!!!! They are demons in human bodies and.. BE careful! Whatever happens in a near future... Be careful to whom u give your soul... FREEMASONS ARE LUCIFER WORSHIPERS AND GIVING UR SOUL TO THE DEVIL IS A BAD BAD IDEA ... I lived with a Freemason as a roommate and i know what i freaking know :) Just be careful with your soul when you die..

[rakuenld]

You definately need to see this. Fresh leaked docs Indicating gov analysis in to ufos! Just drop by ufosecretXnet (replace X with . ) , people have got it all archived there!

[ignae]

dude get a good micro, REALLY!!

[KungFatty]

have you seen the latest interview on projectcamelot . org with Jordan Maxwell ? he claims peter Joseph of zeitgeist used him as the inspiration for that film ,

[VinnfordSansbury]

Thanks for the link. Episode 3 demonstrates this is obviously true.

[VinnfordSansbury]

Thanks again for this link.  I finally got around to watching it. I believe I might even use some quotations for my next episode.

[Shukuri23]

And can you please tell me why you called this video "The Sun Vs the Snake"? Are you saying that Peter is the snake? If so, then I love it. It's perfect.

[VinnfordSansbury]

The oldest religious idol: A snake.

Horus: Merged fromt he original Egyptian sun goddess, a cobra.

How much of this video did you watch by the way? I am glad you are so passionate about this though. If you want to help me critique the series and find any factual errors please let me know so I can correct them immediately. :-)

[Shukuri23]

Ahh the snake. You should research more about this snake thing. It's very very interesting.

[Shukuri23]

Actually let me change my statement a little. The first true religions were worship of the sun and worship of the serpent. I'm not sure which came first. It is possibly the snake though. From what I've researched the ancient texts are kind of vague.

[VinnfordSansbury]

All my research points to animal worship with a strong snake focus as being the earliest form of worship. I'm not sure how you are defining "true religion" however.

[Shukuri23]

True religion as in a mass number of followers for that certain belief. This is where it goes from a cult to a religion.

[Shukuri23]

And whether or not the sun was "the most adored object of all time" or not, it was a highly adored object of ancient people and it was worshipped by many. It was the first true religion. Unless you want to call the scattered beliefs of Animism a religion. You totally missed the point of the statement. You should redirect your debate on more important parts.

[VinnfordSansbury]

Its not a debate its an examination of facts. Its supposed to be supplimentary for people who need help researching this stuff on their own who don't have the time/skill to get started.

[Shukuri23]

Okay, just make sure you do proper research, so you are not misinforming people. You may criticize him for his weak sources, he deserves that. But make sure you research his point about that certain issue, because most of them do have a credible source to prove it as a fact, whether his sources sucked or not. I've never used his sources for part 1 of ZG, I went straight to the history books to find that info and more.

[VinnfordSansbury]

Likewise if you find factual errors here please point it out. Is there a part where you think I needed more research or missed explaining the point?

[Shukuri23]

You're failing to remember that the sun is a star. Peter never claimed the sun was the first form of worship, so that argument is a fallacy. Anyone who has studied religion knows that Animism was the first form of spirituality. You are only proving Peter's point by siting Animism. First it was Animism, then came star worship according to history. Hence the later anthropomorphism of the stars. You proved nothing.

[VinnfordSansbury]

We know this because of science class, but do you really think anyone before copernicus thought the sun was a star? The argument isn't which came first but which was more prominent. I like to give some background because thats how you educate people, explaining the whole story. I proved there is no proof for the statement and asked a serious question which some might say is better than giving a made-up answer.

[Shukuri23]

The worship was based on "the heavens", which the sun is a part of. You're pointlessly trying to cite empirical evidence to explain common sense.

[VinnfordSansbury]

Okay you really lost me. I don't know what you think I tried to prove here. Of course its part of the heavens. Not every part of the film proves something wrong, some of it is supportive information for people who are NOT familiar with the whole subject. Which argument specifically did you think was a fallacy?

[Shukuri23]

Yes, man did not grow crops before 10,000 years ago, but there were still crops in nature to feed off of. And ancient man recognized that without the sun, plants would not grow. Peter is speaking of only a pre-Christian source, he isn't going back as far as you're thinking.

[VinnfordSansbury]

Did they really know that? If they were not farmers and didn't have any scientific method how would they know? If anything people probably thought rain made things grow, especially in desert regions. That observation would be very easy to make. But pre-neolithic era? Doubtful. Peter Joseph says specifically, "OF ALL TIME". His own words. So if he meant a Pre-Christian time or just 10,000 BC - 29 AD or something to that affect he is sending the wrong message.

[Shukuri23]

Honestly, are we going to debate common sense here? Do you think that observable evidence is not scientific enough? Are you honestly going to tell me that man over thousands of years couldn't notice that plants or his crops grew better on sunny days than cloudy days? Do you think ancient man had the cognitive ability of a hamster? Your argument has made a giant leap over the fence into ridiculous territory. I'm really getting pissed off here. I really need to pick my debates more wisely.

[VinnfordSansbury]

Key phrase here: If they were not farmers...

I am talking about before "crops". Ergo, since Peter Joseph said, "all time" I included human beings from that era too. Yes, farmers would have definately noticed what affected their crops. Hence the emergence of sun gods. I am not arguing that point. Like you said, its common sense. My point was the people who came before them had a different lifestyle and focus for basic needs.

[Greddyy23]

Such a pathethic video. Yes, you would ask "What exactly?". I don't want to exactly process everything. But i want to say, that this failure 'debunk' is stupid. I mean, there is no need to vaste energy by trying to prove ""Real facts and sources"" and also ""bad facts and sources"".There is no such as, because it's so silly to claim that mines is good sources and another is bad, i am talking about 'debunk of religion'.

[VinnfordSansbury]

The purpose of this video is not to "debunk", but to show people where this info comes from and which parts are true and which are not true or questionable. I would say that YES, there are sources you cannot find as reliable as others, namely people who make stuff up based on their own conclusions versus scholars and archeologists who examine the evidence first hand from a non-biased starting point. This video is more about education than just throwing allegations at the audience.

[VinnfordSansbury]

For example: You call my video pathetic based on your view that I don't have the right to say which sources are better. Where is your evidence though? For that matter based on your own logic who are you to say which videos are pathetic?

If you want to debunk religion in general go for it. I'm defending historical accuracy and the knowledge that scholars laboriously discovered, researched and preserved from being perverted by half-wit attempts to re-write reality unchallenged.

[VinnfordSansbury]

To conclude my 3 part reply, if you have a solid argument to support your claim that my sources are not to be trusted over Peter Joseph's I would love to be corrected. Go take a look for yourself. I provided links to online sources in the annotations. Corrections will be noted openly and fixed in the final version. This is not a closed case and if you want to be a part of the research process I welcome it. :-)

[Greddyy23]

We can't do an historical experiment, just like in normal science( i dont name history as a science, it's like a fiction, lots of brainwashing stuff with its "sources"), so we cannot examine it. Because many "reliable sources" are CREATED, with ones who is writing it, attitude. Discusions about historical events in the past are sou ridicilous and nonsense. :)

[VinnfordSansbury]

We still get a lot of information by comparing ancient artifacts and ruins with written history. Archaeology paired with comparrison of historical accounts against each other helps us determine what really happened from what might have happened.

[Greddyy23]

But you know that most historians are "bought" and influenced. All history is... a big lie. But this is other theme. :)

I liked Zeitgeist a lot. It really opened my eyes. It does not matter, if it's sources are artificial or created, it gives a view around you that something is not in a correct direction.

[VinnfordSansbury]

No, I do not KNOW that history is for certain a big lie. It would seem logical that anyone passionate about history to become a historian would prefer to preserve the Truth. I do know that archeologists would also have a terrible time reconciling the two fields if it were a lie. How can you say in one breath that "history is full of artificial sources and its a horrid lie" and then "artificial sources don't matter at all if it sounds good" in the next?

[Greddyy23]

I talked exactly about movie, when i said about artificial. It's like a detonation on ones consciousness and causes thinking. :)

[VinnfordSansbury]

So you are saying that lies are okay as long as they make you think?

[Greddyy23]

It is positive thing, when people are encouraged to investigate their belief systems and etc. :)

[VinnfordSansbury]

Not everyone HAS that reaction unfortunately. Many who watch this film assume since it has so many quoted sources all of it MUST be true and it either reinforces their smug disdain for religion or puts their faith and life in to crisis. I personally know a man who totally abandoned his faith after reading just ONE of Acharya S's books. That WAS his research and he was a different sadder man thereafter. Not everyone in the world knows how to differentiate which sources are academically sound.

[Greddyy23]

I agree to your comment. But even there is no need to know this film to understand, what da shit religion is. :)

[XSC3]

by the logic of Zeitgeist, we should worship the Big Bang... right? I mean, without it, no universe!

Then again a theist would say, "who started the big bang?"

[VinnfordSansbury]

Or for that matter, who started this multi-verse with all these physical and quantum laws which clashed in to each other and made things go bang? Ha ha.

This is exactly the point I'm getting at here. Its flawed logic that doesn't take in to account the real belief systems and understandings of all people. Its a big setup for everything that follows though.

[juniortigres]

the sun is taken for granted now and thats why its not the most adored object. but you must admit that without it nothing on earth would be alive.

[VinnfordSansbury]

Yes, just like I must admit that without water, carbon, and proteins nothing on Earth would be alive. Without food (animals & plants), clothing (animal fur) and shelter (caves or huts) pre-neolithic humans would not have survived. Without the stars, people would have been lost in time and space alike. There are many more complexities important in early man's life than the sun. Some more directly important in some periods of history. Egypt specifically was just very pro-sun/star centered.

[schaduw11]

the stars could be he most adored "object" of all times... but then again, what is the sun if not a star? and being the closest to our planet...

modern man just assumes that drawings and sculptures meant worshiping the gods for ancient humans, when there is no proof whatsoever that they believed in gods and whorshiped them just like modern man does, through imagery and words and symbols adopted from other stories. ever played that game where a sentence has to "go through" a circle of people?

[beckpod1]

Without the sun...no food no life..no stupid video like this made by idiots!

[VinnfordSansbury]

What exactly do you find idiotic about the video?  If you have corrections I'd like to hear them.

[VinnfordSansbury]

Do you too then adore the sun above all objects?

[VinnfordSansbury]

I mean think about it. You know the process of photosythesis much better than ancient uneducated people. Of all the things in your life is the sun the most precious to you in your daily doings or other things, the computer for example, source of another type of illumination. ;-)

[gizmo2084]

VinnfordSansbury, are you able to discern how spoken is used (some times generalized to form a sense of mood) to imply meaning and how the author assumes that the reader understands its context?

The reason that the Sun was picked as the apex of all objects adored was because it was one of the main constants seen by man on earth throughout time. Many objects are adored. So, is there really only one object that is the "most" adored? If so, which object is it?

[VinnfordSansbury]

It would be more accurate to say something like, "The sun was one of the most central and yet mysterious objects in history,"

[gizmo2084]

I agree. Fits perfectly with how human nature deals with wonder and religious lore is adopted.

[daizee106]

5 stars

[VinnfordSansbury]

...series

Thanks for your comments. I shall have to clarify these points in the final film because I know you're a very intelligent person so if you are confused I imagine others are as well.

[VinnfordSansbury]

Response for Chaz-

First, let me apologize about the comments. I did not disable them. I think they might be down for maintenance.

a⋅dore /əˈdɔr, əˈdoʊr/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [uh-dawr, uh-dohr] Show IPA verb, a⋅dored, a⋅dor⋅ing.

Use adore in a Sentence

See web results for adore

See images of adore

verb (used with object) 1. to regard with the utmost esteem, love, and respect; honor.

2. to pay divine honor to; worship: to adore God.

[VinnfordSansbury]

If he had meant 3. Liked very much, then that means worship of anything else over-rides his statement so I gave him the benefit of the doubt.

As far as Christianity coming after sun worship, that is not what he is talking about yet. This is an academic exploration of the truth and Peter Joseph's sources. Of course sun worship came first. I'm not one of those other "debunkers" who just focus on Jesus. I really want people who are lost to be educated about this stuff. Thats the point of the

[VinnfordSansbury]

A few times now. Thanks for linking for other folks though. =D

[BeyondDGrave]

Have you seen the focus of the Addendum film?

It is rather interesting.

Here is a link to the quick focus of their ideology:

/watch?v=5uy-x-4ukW4