How can an "UNREPENTANT MURDERER" ever be considered a man of God. John Calvin was given an opportunity to repent of the murder of Michael Servetus but he would NOT do it. Shame on Calvinist followers for turning a blind eye to this obvious sin against Jesus' teachings. We wrestle NOT against flesh......
This idea, that fuses foreknowledge and predestination (as Calvinism teaches it) into one thing, when they are not, is one of the most damaging things in this theology. The implications of it are so harmful to trusting faith. If God made me sin by predestining me to sin, why should I take seriously that God wants me to turn from my sin to Him? Why would I trust Him? This teaching is from satan and plays into the hands of the most evil accusations against God.
@daveme7 God forseeing a thing does NOT "lock you into" anything, because whatever you do, in freedom, that is what God forsees. Foreknowledge is not the same thing as God causing a thing to happen. He knows the end of a thing from the beginning, not because He makes it happen, but because He knows all things.
Calvinism is evil. It focuses on God's Sovereignty at the expense of his other attributes such as love, mercy and justice. How any thinking person can be a Calvinist is beyond me.
God is Love and wants all men to be saved. Calvinism rejects that truth and makes the Gospel of Christ to be of no effect.
And worst of all, it seems as if most calvinists are worried solely about their 'election'... the rest of us, the massa damnata, doesn't matter. God didn't love us, so why should we, right? The most egotistical christian denomination right here: calvinism.
Fourth: this all has nothing to do with the fact that Calvin willed the death of Servetus and did nothing to prevent it. Quite the opposite. No matter how many illogical brainraids Calvin's defenders will try to take, the hard solid fact is that Calvin WANTED Servetus dead and acted on that desire the moment he had the chance.
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones 1. Calvin wrote Severtus he could not protect him 2. he came anyways 3. Calvin was a french citizen therefore could not act as persecutor, defendant or a jurist-he was not a citizen4. Severtus was found guilty of heresyas quite a few protestant and catholic countries would have done much worst 5. Calvin asked if he wanted to stand trial in another country which Severtus turned down
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones 6.Calvin made a dangerous trip to France for his friend Severtus when Calvin was wanted in France for similar reasons 7. Calvin was chided for being too merciful for advocating for decapitation as opposedto burning at the stake Did Calvin ever write something about Killing Severtus that could be interpreted as death threats-sure-and I hope God is a bit more merciful to us if he ever decides to make us account for whatever words we spoke inhaste
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones Of course in our system of justice, mere words alone spoken years ago is usually not admissable in court. As I am sure if all I did was take your writings and accuse you of heresy as this was sent to Calvin as basically he wrote back and told him he was terminating communications and Severtus kept writing anyways. In all of this, there was only one person guiltyfor Severtus to be killed-Severtus himself.
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones Now, I do not know what anyone has done in life. When in another country I wanted to go up to the mountains as was told it is too dangerous-basically Al Qaeda and Abu Syaff were now operating in that area and if I would have gone-1. kidnapped 2. tortured 3. attempted ransom
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones Besides being the only red haired American for mile and pulling out my VA ID which states 2 purploe hearts disabled vet and my retiree ID card-what would be the chances of me surviving when a simpla google search of my name will reveal I fought in Iraq? so do you think a bit of common sense should enter into my mind where what Servetus did would be like me showing up at a Muslim temple where much is controlled by Muslims
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones To me, this is nothing short of slander because most non Calvinists falsely accuse of worshipping Calvin whan Calvin was dead about 64 yrs when they started conceptualizing TULIP. I tell you, Catholicism has done more then one man but this does not cause anyone to deny the Trinity. If this is the standard of the righteousness of a doctrine or belief-I fear we are all screwed in a big kind of way
First of all: bible quoting has no effect on me. I do not take the bible literally, nor do I think it was written by God Himself. Secondly, calvinism can be debunked by quoting that same Bible. Ezechiel 18, the entire chapter, demonstrates that original sin does not exist. Thirdly, if calvinism was true, that would make God the author of sin.
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones First, we need to deal with somethings and forget about Calvinism for right now-have you ever placed faith in Christ for salvation and let us know how you did this. Salvation is utterly more important as opposed to John Calvin or Jakob Arminius
So, what we have is the genetic fallacy. When are haters of Calvinism gonna debate the facts of scripture rather than presenting one fallacy after another?
I don't have a problem with that. Is there something in scripture that states that God cannot be the author of sin or do you simply invoke your own philosophy and become Gods judge?
No problem. I'll worship a sovereign God who has a purpose for everything, including evil. You worship an impotent god who is defeated by the almighty will of man every day, where evil occurs for absolutely no purpose.
Proverbs 16:4
I have created everything for a purpose, even the wicked for the day of evil.
I've studied calvinism inside and out. The end result is that calvinism espouses a monstrous deity and reduces his creation to a puppet theater with a cosmic Caligula pulling the strings. I dare you to come to any other conclusion based on Calvin's own writings - and those of Beza as well.
This is the difference between going outside of the bible for your philosophy and sticking with the bible. You use pagan philosophy to dictate right and wrong; the Calvinist uses the bible.
I don't see the bible as infallible, indeed. I adhere to Origines' stance that taking the bible literally is not a wise idea. Also: why have so many books been LEFT OUT of the canon?
@fivepointbaptist I hope you realize that you have just blasphemed God. It is you that needs to repent of your heresy. You defame the character of God with your false doctrines.
@fivepointbaptist You worship a god who you acknowledge is the author of sin. Next time you walk up to a rape victim, tell her 'god has a special plan for her', and that 'he could have prevented the rape but didn't' for his own 'special purposes'. The day I worship the calvinist cult god is the day I believe there is no difference in right and wrong.
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones And next time you talk with a rape victim, tell them that God had the power to stop the rapist but He didn't because He respected the free will of the rapist more than He respected her security.
3This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
@fivepointbaptist That is interesting: the thing you said about rape. It makes me think that if one man can have control over another's free will (like when my brother got raped in prison), but yet God cannot. My brothers free will would be that he did not have a penis entering his asshole, yet despite his will, it happened anyway. So, man can do what God cannot apparently.
I have a question or maybve an observation-you realize Calvin diod not teach TULIP nor never did as this was done in the Synod of Dort which I am sure you know there is like about 18-19 points and not just five as this was commissioned by King James of England.
But the real question as I saw you replied of a God who does not threaten-my questin is this: If God nebver imposes his will on mankind , then does not judging people as ;lost and worthy of hell-isnt this imposing on the free will
Is this not imposiong on the free will of man-do you really think it is the will of man to be tortured forever with hell fire?
Honestly, to me the saddest thing is to see salvation however concoieved as a bad thing if imposed by God on an unwilling man-and this seen as evil-when salvation is sin-I ope you understand I have some problems with seeing salvation as sin when clearly ijn Psalms 14 and 53 restated about all mankind by Paul in Romans 3-there is nons that seek after God
So when reading Psalms 14 and 53, the only conclusiopn I have is God's foreknoweldge is indeed knowledge by action, by the choice of God since it seems apparently in the one place it states God looks on the childeren of men-the conclusion being that God reckoned they all are guiloty and every single one of us chose hell fire and damnation and not one chose faoith in God or trying to even understand God
Ultimately it ends up being for many of us-well at least as far as I am concerned-I usually embrace whatever people accuse of. It is better to be a robot or puppet for God, as IO say a slave to God then rather be the King of hell. Somehow tose angels flying around the throne of God crying the holiness of God which causes the doors of heaven to move. I somehow tink they do not think they were jipped for being made "puppets" for God. I praise God whene3ver someonhe says we
I praise the Lord when people speak of God "forcing" people to be saved and I will bellow out a loud Amen I am glad for this for without it-we all will be in hell and hope God forces billions more to be saved. On the other hand-when we are seen as puppets as clowns, as robots for God-I will tell you bpreach it brother-in Ephesians 2:10 teaches we are the creation of God(JOhn 3:16) there is no better of a love when God loves those who absolutely hate God and saves us despite ourselves
@daveme7 Can you force someone to love you? I don't think you understand the God of Love. God sent his Son as an atonement for the sins of the world. Those that accept Christ are saved, those that reject Christ are damned.
According to your twisted theology you are saying that God predestines some to reject his very own Son. I happen to consider that blasphemy. You need to repent of this Calvinistic heresy which is a cruel man-made religious system.
@StandForTheFaith If you look at my words, I never taught such a thing as basically this is assumptive. Man is dammed because man decided to rebel against God(Adam) and become self reliant. basically predestined to hell is a logic argument but not a scriptural one as God does not always conform to our thinking.
@StandForTheFaith Again, this is an assumption not in evidance. Do you think it might be possible that the Lord usually does not conform to our understanding? If you beklieve in eternal security-you believe and teach a license to sin. If you believe you can lose your salvation-you are teaching salvation by works
@StandForTheFaith If you believe Lordship Salvation, you have to overcome every sin in subjection to God as Lord, If you believe in repentance-you believe salvation by works-if you do not-you become a Popish figure to determine who is saved by praying a prayer. If you believe in the Trinityt-you believe Neo platonism as panthiesm, If you believe in Christ-you are a backwards simpleton easily decieved and excitable by the news of the day
@daveme7 Repentance is not a work and neither is faith. If you have not repented and put your faith in Christ as the Bible dictates then you are not saved.
@StandForTheFaith Actually heard this today for the first time-if you believe in the apocalypse and also said about Christ-your shadow self, your false self-ego converges with basic forms which the most base one is belief-so believing the apocalypse makes you irrational and you are dangerous-must be closely watched which I think is a pretext to lock Christians up.
@StandForTheFaith The point is, trhere is much that is assumed and the assunption makes perfectly logical sense andthe ones given are the first to come to mind..It is not logic that determines truth but the bible does. We can make all kinds of judgments and understandings based on logic in the scriptures-Christ does not conform to us but we conform to Christ
@StandForTheFaith I might have sent the same post twice by accident-this is where all Christians should be. I have no problems departing from what i believe if you or God teaches why this is wrong. I am willing to look at about anything and often do read books against my beliefs. What you are talking about in using logic(you might not be aware of this) but this is rationalism which denies the bible-not because the bible is never rational for it is-irrationality is understood in faith
@daveme7 God tells you to reason. Paul reasoned using the scriptures. I do not put my trust in the opinions or theology of men. I test everything against the scriptures. Calvinism is not Biblical. Calvinism is anti-gospel and defames the character of God. It makes the Gospel of Christ powerless when the Bible states just the opposite.
@StandForTheFaith If I am to go by the bible-then those condemmed to hell are condemmed because of our sin and rebellion in refusal to obey by placing faith in Christ. When a President or governor pardons someone-are they responsible for the guilt of all the rest of prisoners?
@daveme7 What are you talking about? What do you think the Gospel is for? The Gospel is presented and the Holy Spirit convicts. It is up to man whether to accept or reject the Gospel of Christ.
Without faith it is impossible to please God. You are the one who needs to believe and have faith in Christ. It isn't forced on you or else it wouldn't really be faith. Just like love cannot be forced or it wouldn't really be love.
@StandForTheFaith That is where I disagree. Basically Psalms 14 and 53 is re quoted by Paul in Romans 3 in many words including, "There is none that seek after God". THis kind of detroying the whole noton of God foreknows who will place faith in him for salvation as basically-these teach the opposite-God looked down from heaven and saw every single person reject God. God judges people to hell not on predestination or election but judges according to hos holiness and frighteousness
@daveme7 God looks at the heart. He chooses based on his foreknowledge. You are ignoring a lot of other scriptures and misusing the ones you are using.
Ever heard of David? He was a man after God's own heart.
@StandForTheFaith And it was King David who penned Psalms 14 and 53 that Paul quoted in Psalms 3 as not just for some people as sinful but for all people. In fact-I dare to say these passages contradicts your conceptions of foreknowledge. Just look at those and you will see God did look down on mankind and saw none.
@daveme7 I think you missed my point regarding poetic exaggeration. Just focus on a few verses to support your false theology and ignore the rest of the Bible and the true nature of God which is Love.
Did you forget Noah, Lot, Job, etc? You don't want the truth you just want to make people think like you do. The truth is in the scriptures and not in the twisted theology of Calvin who got his twisted ideas from Augustine.
@StandForTheFaith Ummm-perhaps also Romans 8 and Ephesians 1-John 6 and ummm I am not giving a few scattered verses sprinkled here and there with something that might sound like it teaces my doctrine...ummm...as A Christian the first and most importent thing I learned about bible study is context, context, context!
@StandForTheFaith So basically-you say your position is the scriptural position-and mine is not. Yet-I am the only one referrancing scriptures. Oh yes-nice job avoiding answering scriptures that do not teach your position by falsely accusing me of twisting a few bverses here and there-again-I am giving whole CHAPTERS
@daveme7 What I am saying is that your position is not biblical. Your theology comes from a man who used select verses to support his doctrines instead of letting the whole of scripture dictate sound doctrine.
@StandForTheFaith Again, "select verses" Romans 8, 9, and 11-are these a few sprinkled verses or whole chapters. If you were accused of using a few scattered verses knowing you gave whole chapters both from the Old Testament and the NEW-what would you think if this was said about you?If the person you are challenging refuses to deal with the texts and never brings their own-what would you think? Me-too much pride in what the other person does
@daveme7 I would say that if you take the position of Calvinism then that means that you have a distorted image of who God really is and are basing your theology on that and taking select verses to try to prove your false doctrines instead of letting the scriptures reveal who God really is and that he wants all men to be saved and why he sent his Son Jesus to take away the sins of the world. Christ paid the sin penalty in full. He died for all sins which would apply to all men.
@StandForTheFaith SELECT VERSES? I do not think I ever gave individual verses as I said whole chapters you refuse to show how they do ot oppose your voiew. Good job-sling that mud. When your pastorpreaches something you disagree wit-do you put your fingers in your ears screaming-It's heresy, It's heresy! Last I checked-accusations are not proof-show in the chapters given how I err in interpreting them
@StandForTheFaith 1 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good. 2 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God. 3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthya: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
So how does this not teach everysingle one of us rejected God?
@daveme7 Here is a very clear verse that makes this distinction between all men and those that are saved or as you would call it, the elect.
1 Timothy 4:9,10 NIV
9This is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance 10(and for this we labor and strive), that we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe.
@StandForTheFaith Few veerses or full chapters? Here is another one-Isaiah 55. When someone tells you that you are wrong after posting chapters of what teaches a doctrine and the person tells you your conclusions are invalid because of sprinkling a bit here and there and refuses to deal with the scriptures presented-what would you think about if this was done to do
@daveme7 Dave: I have studied calvinism for nine years now. I know all the scripture verses calvinists like to pop out in the open to justify predestination. And the end result of calvinism is: God is the author of sin, God willed the fall of man and God, in his own pleasure, decided before the beginning of it all who would be saved and who would be damned for all eternity. That, my friend, is not love. It's not even irrational. It's monstrous.
@daveme7 God wants all men saved but not all will be saved. It is the Devil, and not God, that wants people to be damned. You give the attributes of the Devil to God when you suggest God predestines some to damnation.
11"This is the meaning of the parable: The seed is the word of God. 12Those along the path are the ones who hear, and then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved.
@StandForTheFaith MY conclusion would be-1. You do not know how to study-fair enough-not something to be ashamed of. 2.That passage teaches against your own beliefs and would have to start repenting of your understanding or perhaps throw a red herring and say I am confused, interpreting wrong, or something else to invalidate the meaning drawn from the bible. We do notsubject the bible to us, we subject ourselves to the bible
@daveme7 Subject yourself to what God says in this scripture and do not falsely substitute the word "all" for the word "elect".
1 Timothy 2:3-5 NIV
3This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
@StandForTheFaith Poetic exageration=what I tell people when my views conflict with the bible.
Oh yes, I only go by the bible or theologies of man so I will take this here literary device not defined by the bible and use this so I do not have to think about scriptures that contradict my understanding
@StandForTheFaith You mean God never looks at actions? If we say it is only the heart-the bible teaches the heart of humanity is desperately wicked. So if we only go by the teachings of the bible and conclude God looks at the heart-the same esult happens-everyone in rebellion against God
@daveme7 Your actions are a direct result of what is in your heart. Scripture states God looks at the heart.
1 Samuel 16:7 NIV
But the LORD said to Samuel, "Do not consider his appearance or his height, for I have rejected him. The LORD does not look at the things man looks at. Man looks at the outward appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart."
@StandForTheFaith 9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? 10 I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings. 11 As the partridge sittethd on eggs, and hatcheth them not; so he that getteth riches, and not by right, shall leave them in the midst of his days, and at his end shall be a fool.
@daveme7 Okay, so based on your thinking then since everyone deserves to go to Hell then everyone should and God should save no one. God saving some and damning others just because he can goes against his nature of love, mercy and justice. Since God wants all to be saved according to the Bible then according to your flawed theology God should force everyone to believe. Since everyone is not forced to believe then there is a missing element in the equation which happens to be man's choice.
@StandForTheFaith Call it whatever you to say that-yes-I pray God forces Billions to be saved and that God would use me in preaching the gospel. The point I would bring is from what I have seen from many like you is seeing salvation as violating the free will of man is somehow wrong almost to the point I wander if people realize basically salvation is a sin because God violated the free will of man
@daveme7 That is really twisted thinking. God doesn't force you to believe. Like I have already stated more than once it is impossible to please God without faith. God cannot force you to love him. You are being ridiculous and illogical.
No point preaching the Gospel of Christ if you are a Calvinist since you have made the Gospel to be of no effect because of your false teaching stating God predestines some to Hell just because he can. That is what you think but it is not true.
@StandForTheFaith Yhat would be called embracing false accusations of my beliefs. That is the whole point of Calvinism-we cannot convince anyone of salvation-that is the work of the Spirit of God and as empty vessels when the only good thing in us is Christ and his Spirit. Our job is to obery, eveangelise by preaching the gospel whether one on one or with an audiance of 10,000 people
@StandForTheFaith I do not believe I ever said that. What I have said and trying to be consistant in all I write and teach-every single one of us deserves hell. Do you disagree with this and if so-why-according to scriptures?
@daveme7 What I am saying is that God loves the world and sent his Son as a final sacrifice to atone for the sins of the world. Do you disagree that Christ is the Lamb that takes away the sin of the world? Do you disagree that God wants all men to be saved?
18Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men.
@StandForTheFaith Let me reset this 1. Every person deserves hell and the judgement of God 2. If God saved no one-God would be still just, holy, and loving. 3. Every single person chooses to hate God and in free will always chooses self redemption by self determination of sin and self righteousness. 4.Only when God elects is anyone ever saved. I am always shocked when I see people accuse God of sin according ththeir thinking and not the bible when God judging sinners is seen as sinful
9The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
30He then brought them out and asked, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" 31They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household."
@StandForTheFaith The question is do you have any conceptions of theological history? The whole point of the reformation was over this issue when Catholicism in a money making scheme had indulgances. When Luther tacked his 95 theses-it was all about Calvinism(when not known as that at the time). The whole thing of by faith, grace, Christ, and the bible alone was concieved by Calvinists
@daveme7 The question is do you have any conceptions of biblical truth and sound doctrine? Not if you listen to the Calvinistic heresies that Calvin got from Augustine.
Funny that Calvin claimed the Bible alone when he got his theories from Augustine and his own human philosophy.
Grace is unmerited favor. Faith is not a work. Without faith it is impossible to please God.
@StandForTheFaith No doubt I do not disagree-why sometimes I mention faith as belief in John 3:16-the Greek constructions would be equivalent of a perpetual present tense that never ends, Paul wrote in Romans 1 the just shall live by faith, James 2 teaches faith without works is dead-not that works complete but works reveal what manner of faith we have. In Romans 11 faith is also defined as the evidance of things not seen.
@StandForTheFaith So are you saying when Augustine withstood Pelagius-he was wrong? Particular to this-it almost does not matter where Calvin fot his beliefs from0I did not get mine from him. I was challanged by a Calvinist to not read books for or against but only stdy the bible and ask God to teaqch you the truth. This while in an IFB college that hated Calvinism a whole lot more then ou and always wander how did I learn this in that circumstance?
@StandForTheFaith I am not sure if I said this here-but about 3 years before buying a work of Calvin(Institutes) or any other Calvinist teaching election and Calvinism. Mainly i was shocked once I prayed for God to teach me-it was rather quick because it was like ine day of studying but waited a few weeks of continued study because when you turn 180 from your own belief system-you want to make sure you are not percieving things incorretly
@daveme7 A lot of people claim God revealed something to them but that doesn't make it true. A lot of cult leaders claim the same thing that you are doing. The test is the scriptures.
@StandForTheFaith The whole reason why I did not buy anything from anyone teaching Calvinism(I am sure I bought some because most often we do not always know who claimed Calvinism lik Matthew Henry or Charles Spurgeon-so perhaps I did but not for the inus of reaffirming my own beliefs-several years later I learned they were Calvinists)
@StandForTheFaith To this point-in those three years-to make sure I am co9rrect in my understanding-read several anti Calvinist books to challenge my own understanding and not clouding the issue of relying on Calvin or Luther but the bible alone. Besides this(what most non calvinists fail to understand) is Calvin never taught Limited atonement or origiated TULIP. Right now am looking into if he taught irrisistable grace they way Calvinists define this as I disagree with Calvinists on this issue
Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.
@StandForTheFaith In other words, this thing you concieve that if one believes in election does not believe in salvation by faith and through grace is completely backwards of the start of the reformation. I cannot remember but about 12-13 is when I first placed faith in Chris about 25 yrs ago. To judge anothers salvation when you have no conception of any theological history gets a bit dangerous. I have talked to many and not one time questioned their faith because we disagreed
@daveme7 Really? The plan of salvation is laid out in the scriptures and is even simple and plain enough for a child to understand. The Calvinistic view is contrary to the biblical view.
Calvinism says that God forces you to believe and regenerates you first and then gives you faith to believe whether you want to be saved or not.
The Bible states you need to repent and believe and have faith in Christ first and then you are regenerated and sealed with the Holy Spirit.
@StandForTheFaith The is another misconception. Calvinism is not the gospel preached though it contains elements of the gospel. It was an Apologetic i.e. defense of what reformed Christians believed and accusation of the beliefs of Armineism. Again, I do not disagree as I see Calvinists paint themselves into a logical corner about faith. (why I do not believe irrisistable grace most C's define it
@daveme7 Calvinism is anti-gospel because it basically claims you are saved before you are really saved. For a Calvinist to preach the gospel is pointless since they don't believe it has any power to save people. Calvinism is not biblical salvation they have the order backwards.
As for irresistible grace? That is false since there are many verses stating that people resisted the Holy Spirit.
@StandForTheFaith On the other hand-have any resources showing Calvinists taught God forced people to be saved. I tend to think-that is your own assumption. Of course, speaking of God as a loving God-forcing people to be saved(if you want to use that conception) is the most loving thing he could do-more loving as saving from hell fire as opposed to freely offering salvation and letting humanity make their own decisions.
@daveme7 That is twisted thinking. God wants all to be saved but not all will be saved. Therefore man chooses when he hears the gospel whether to accept it and Christ or to reject it.
@daveme7 Calvinism lies about God, says he damns people to Hell just because he can. The Bible shows that God is Love and sent his son to atone for the sins of the whole world and that salvation is for anyone that places their faith in Christ.
Calvinism claims you don't have to have faith and believe. The Bible states that without faith it is impossible to please God.
Calvinism takes away personal accountability whereas the Bible holds man accountable for either accepting or rejecting Christ
@StandForTheFaith Somehow when I hear this-I think of Romans 9 13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. 15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
Then the man said, "Your name will no longer be Jacob, but Israel, because you have struggled with God and with men and have overcome."
Israel are God's chosen people yet they rebelled, worshiped foreign gods, and ultimately rejected Christ. According to your logic all of Israel should have accepted Christ and been saved.
@StandForTheFaith Whats your point? If Paul would have wrote alice and sue in there-the main emphasis is when God elects but not all-there is no unrighteousness with God that you keep accusing the Lord of sin
@daveme7 Romans 9 speaks of a prophecy made in Maleachi. Esau does not refer to the individual Esau, but to his 'offspring', the Edomites, who helped destroy the temple along with the Babylonians. It has nothing to do with the person Esau. It couldn't, either, check Ezechiel 18:1-4.
@daveme7 That is talking about nations and not to be applied to individual salvation.
Genesis 25:22,23 NIV 22 The babies jostled each other within her, and she said, "Why is this happening to me?" So she went to inquire of the LORD. 23 The LORD said to her, "Two nations are in your womb, and two peoples from within you will be separated; one people will be stronger than the other, and the older will serve the younger."
@StandForTheFaith Also this reminds me of Psalms 12. I would quote the whole chapter but that is too big. There is one pivotal verse non Calvinist arguments and beliefs remind me of:4 Who have said, With our tongue will we prevail; our lips are our own: who is lord over us?
@daveme7 This is just one more case of you taking scriptures out of context. Psalms 12 is talking about God protecting the oppressed from evil people. This verse does not support Calvinism whatsoever.
@daveme7 Speaking of theological history. The early Church Fathers such as Irenaeus upheld the truth about free will. Irenaeus who was a disciple of Polycarp who was a disciple of St John the Apostle. He spoke out against Gnostic heresies.
Other than that the plan of salvation is based on the scriptures and not theological history as you call it.
The Bible tells you how to be saved not Calvin and his evil twisted theology. You are following men and not God.
@StandForTheFaith You are right, it is up to man kind to accept or reject the gospel. I do n ot disagree. What the scriptures teach is every single one of us rejected the gospel. I know this is not easy to take the bible for what it says like, "There was none that seeks after God" Where in this statement do you find man placing faith in Christ? I do not see it. When challanged on this, I went to where Paul quoted from in Psalms 14 and 53
13And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,
a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified.
@StandForTheFaith Know what a Red Herring is? It is what you have been doing the whole time-I mention a verse or passage and instead of dealing with it-throw some other passages out there. Very nice, I enjoyed the verses you quoted.
@StandForTheFaith The fact is I brought passages that teaches the complete understanding is that every single person departs from God. If it is left up to mankind-there would be no one saved. Psalms 14, 53-to make a judgement about how I use scripture does not make these chapters wrong and feel you should answer if this does not teach every single person depars from God in rebellion and never returns to God
22The men replied, "We have come from Cornelius the centurion. He is a righteous and God-fearing man, who is respected by all the Jewish people. A holy angel told him to have you come to his house so that he could hear what you have to say."
@daveme7 Everyone is born with a fallen nature. Christ is the one who reconciles us back to God. Christ said when he was lifted up he will draw all men. Drawing is like wooing it is not forcing. Just like when you are courting you can woo your mate but you can't force her to want you or love you. God is a God of Love. He doesn't want anyone to perish but all to come to repentance and a knowledge of the truth. God wants all men saved. But not all will be.
@StandForTheFaith God is more so a God of holiness and love and holiness are never in conflict. Looking on what I wrote about in Psalms 14/53 and Romans 3-Then God must pardon all which goes into universalism which is a heresy. I always wander, have you ever looked into who believes in free will? Personally I would say go and study Anton Levay and Alister Crowley
@daveme7 Okay, that is just stupid. God tells us to repent. We are told to believe in Christ. You are judged on the basis of whether or not you accept or reject Christ.
@StandForTheFaith When free will allows man to choose against God or to choose unrighteousness-I just do not get how this is a gift from God that enables men to choose evil-great gift-God gave this gift and Hitler used it to kill 5 million of his foreknown people. I do not know about you-but that tends to(now because of studies and understanding) that free will is not a good thing.
@daveme7 How long do you want to keep arguing with me? God created man as a free moral agent. He disobeyed God and lost his innocence. Where does it say in Genesis that man lost his free will as a curse? It doesn't. Man lost his innocence and his relationship with God was severed.
Did you neglect all the verses where God tells people to choose. He sets before them life and death and tells them to choose life.
@daveme7 If Hitler did not act out of free will, then who is responsible for the Holocaust, dave? It can't be the devil, for he has no power over God's plans.
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones You have been missing what I have said(a lot of comments so not trying to insult) I believe man haqs free will and has not otherwise said that man does not. Basically-I believe free will is the sin nature-the knowledge of good and evil from Gen 3
@StandForTheFaith Not sure if I shared this-was not looking for this as an answer when discovered but more and less in studying sanctification(you will love my teaching on that) as basically the sin nature is the knowledge of good and evil. In other words-the sin nature is free will.
@daveme7 That's not what the Bible teaches. God holds man accountable for his choices. Did you know that God gives everyone a conscience? That's what the Bible states.
@StandForTheFaith Have you ever read Romans 3? I just wander what it means when it says there is no fear of God before their eyes. This is a description of the fallen nature. Have you ever thought to see when it says there is none that seek after God is tied to the sin nature and does not stand apart as something else but only the sin nature?
14(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.)
@daveme7 This verse is talking about an unsaved gentile.
Acts 10 NIV
2He and all his family were devout and God-fearing; he gave generously to those in need and prayed to God regularly.
22The men replied, "We have come from Cornelius the centurion. He is a righteous and God-fearing man, who is respected by all the Jewish people.
34Then Peter began to speak: "I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism 35but accepts men from every nation who fear him and do what is right.
26"Brothers, children of Abraham, and you God-fearing Gentiles, it is to us that this message of salvation has been sent.
Acts 17:4 NIV
"This Jesus I am proclaiming to you is the Christ,[b]" he said. 4Some of the Jews were persuaded and joined Paul and Silas, as did a large number of God-fearing Greeks and not a few prominent women.
@StandForTheFaith I agree whole heartedly as Christ judges those who hate God and forsake and rebell against God. I wander, have you ever noticed not that many remain faithfull in the scriptures? After everything God brought Israel through in freeing them from slavery-when Moses comes back with spending time with God-Every single person is seen as worshipping a golden calf-idolatry
@daveme7 What does that have to do with Calvinism? In fact in a backwards way you just have proven Calvinism to be false. Israel was chosen as God's elect yet they disobeyed, chased after false gods, and rejected him. This proves that you can resist God and the Holy Spirit.
@StandForTheFaith It is not that I do not think you misunderstand the God of love, I just do not think you understand the bible. Psalms 14, 53, Romans 3, Isaiah53 all teach the same exact thing-every single person chose to reject God-and yes-in the context of foreknow;edge of yuou say this is foreseen faith. In all of these passages-the only faith foreseen is faith in self and rejection of God
@daveme7 Ever heard of David, Job, etc. What you are saying is false. Even in the NT there is reference to the God-fearing Greeks and these people were not saved.
Those from every tribe of Israel who set their hearts on seeking the LORD,
Hebrews 11:6 NIV
And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.
@StandForTheFaith I am afraid most Calvinists do not have a conception of what I am going to say. You say God fearing-if someone fears God, God will grant repentance. I just do not think many do. I think-many worship themselves. Even Catholicism has one doiung all these works to love and fear God. The question for me is what is sin-my answer-the knowledge of Good and evil.
@StandForTheFaith In this, when we are self sufficient and self determined of what is righteous-does not matter f it lines up with the bible-self suffinciency and self righteousness is abhorred by God. There is a reason why rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft and has everything to do with Soveriegnty in Genesis 3. They might be God fearing people but the God they fear are themselves-not Jesus Chrst
@daveme7 You are not making any sense whatsoever. God has made it plain to everyone that he exists through his creation. Those that fear God and seek him will find him.
Paul preached to the God-fearing Greeks and they converted. The philosophies of men such as Calvin are an insult to God and to the blood of Christ that was shed on the cross for the sins of the world not just the elect. The free gift of salvation is received by faith. You need to believe and have faith.
@StandForTheFaith BTW, after accepting Calvinism-not sure if it is 2.5 or to 3 years before I read anything by a Calvinist-well except the biblical authors. The point is this-I challange my Calvinist bretheren as well as I think about 6 months ago on this challange and have yet to seen one produce evidance Calvin ever taught Limited Atonement
@daveme7 So are you saying that Christ died for the sins of the world? If so then why would God prevent some from being saved through the Gospel of Christ?
@StandForTheFaith We prevent ourselves-go and read psalms 14, 53, Isaiah 53 and Romans 3 and ask God to teach you the truth of these passages and really about Calvinism. I will tell you what a Calvinist told me-ask God to teach you-do not read books for or against Calvinism and study the scriptures begging for understanding and wisdom
@daveme7 Calvinism is at odds with biblical truth. I was saved a long time ago and did read the Bible way before I ever even heard of Calvinism and I'm telling you that after reading some of his Institutes of the Christian Religion it makes me sick in my spirit. Calvinism is evil. It makes God the author of evil. It makes God into a cruel and sadistic tyrant. You are deceived. Calvinism is heresy.
@StandForTheFaith essiantially-folowing those steps is how I became a Calvinist in the first place when going to a very Armenian anti Calvinist Baptist Bible College-If God can teach the truth there-he can do it anywhere-rely on God and his Spirit. I woiuld say there is no other reason to speak on these matters because I might convince you of something but I am not God and it is he who must lead you into truth
@daveme7 I do not want to be a heretic and believe false doctrines. I have a personal relationship with Christ and I know who God is and Calvin blasphemes the true nature of God. He exchanges the truth for the doctrines and philosophies of men. Based on his fruit alone and all the persecutions it is proven he was not regenerated. He was cold and calculating. No one is perfect but where do you find the Apostles burning heretics at the stake?
@StandForTheFaith Not that I cannot teach all kinds of things that makes common sense-if God is not using me-at some point in time you need to rely on God-he will lead you to ttruth-I can only lead you to my understanding. I believe I am right and have the right understanding-I just pray when I stray-God will chop me good as his son.(You know, so you know God lovesm you)
@daveme7 Sorry to burst your bubble but you are not right. The Holy Spirit is the teacher and every doctrine needs to be tested against the scriptures. Calvinist theology fails the test.
@StandForTheFaith I guess when I stated that I waited saeveral years before readin anything about Calvin and Calvinism-why do you think this is? Perhaps I allow for me to be wrong and at somepoint in time while studying scriptures-God would answer my prayers to show me I am wrong.
How can an "UNREPENTANT MURDERER" ever be considered a man of God. John Calvin was given an opportunity to repent of the murder of Michael Servetus but he would NOT do it. Shame on Calvinist followers for turning a blind eye to this obvious sin against Jesus' teachings. We wrestle NOT against flesh......
LordJesus4Ever 3 weeks ago
This idea, that fuses foreknowledge and predestination (as Calvinism teaches it) into one thing, when they are not, is one of the most damaging things in this theology. The implications of it are so harmful to trusting faith. If God made me sin by predestining me to sin, why should I take seriously that God wants me to turn from my sin to Him? Why would I trust Him? This teaching is from satan and plays into the hands of the most evil accusations against God.
Mcfirefly2 1 month ago
@daveme7 God forseeing a thing does NOT "lock you into" anything, because whatever you do, in freedom, that is what God forsees. Foreknowledge is not the same thing as God causing a thing to happen. He knows the end of a thing from the beginning, not because He makes it happen, but because He knows all things.
Mcfirefly2 1 month ago
Unbelievable and calvinist loved this man and his theology!!!!
Vainslain 1 year ago
Comment removed
colorado4815162342 1 year ago
Miguel Serveto was a great christian, the best of those dark ages. Even Casiodoro Cried when he remembered were this sage person was burnt.
ABBAOPAXO 1 year ago
where did this little drama happen at?
roaringwaterbay 1 year ago
@roaringwaterbay This was presented on the Mall in Washington D.C. and various other places in the year 2004. This version is in Island Pond, VT
3ternaldestineez 1 year ago
@3ternaldestineez OK, thanks.
roaringwaterbay 1 year ago
Calvinism is evil. It focuses on God's Sovereignty at the expense of his other attributes such as love, mercy and justice. How any thinking person can be a Calvinist is beyond me.
God is Love and wants all men to be saved. Calvinism rejects that truth and makes the Gospel of Christ to be of no effect.
StandForTheFaith 1 year ago
And worst of all, it seems as if most calvinists are worried solely about their 'election'... the rest of us, the massa damnata, doesn't matter. God didn't love us, so why should we, right? The most egotistical christian denomination right here: calvinism.
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 2 years ago
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones I totally agree. Calvinism insults the God of Love. It is nothing more than a man made religious elitist snob society.
The Bible says those that don't love don't know God. I think that applies to Calvin and his isms.
StandForTheFaith 1 year ago
Fourth: this all has nothing to do with the fact that Calvin willed the death of Servetus and did nothing to prevent it. Quite the opposite. No matter how many illogical brainraids Calvin's defenders will try to take, the hard solid fact is that Calvin WANTED Servetus dead and acted on that desire the moment he had the chance.
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 2 years ago
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones 1. Calvin wrote Severtus he could not protect him 2. he came anyways 3. Calvin was a french citizen therefore could not act as persecutor, defendant or a jurist-he was not a citizen4. Severtus was found guilty of heresyas quite a few protestant and catholic countries would have done much worst 5. Calvin asked if he wanted to stand trial in another country which Severtus turned down
daveme7 1 year ago
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones 6.Calvin made a dangerous trip to France for his friend Severtus when Calvin was wanted in France for similar reasons 7. Calvin was chided for being too merciful for advocating for decapitation as opposedto burning at the stake Did Calvin ever write something about Killing Severtus that could be interpreted as death threats-sure-and I hope God is a bit more merciful to us if he ever decides to make us account for whatever words we spoke inhaste
daveme7 1 year ago
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones Of course in our system of justice, mere words alone spoken years ago is usually not admissable in court. As I am sure if all I did was take your writings and accuse you of heresy as this was sent to Calvin as basically he wrote back and told him he was terminating communications and Severtus kept writing anyways. In all of this, there was only one person guiltyfor Severtus to be killed-Severtus himself.
daveme7 1 year ago
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones Now, I do not know what anyone has done in life. When in another country I wanted to go up to the mountains as was told it is too dangerous-basically Al Qaeda and Abu Syaff were now operating in that area and if I would have gone-1. kidnapped 2. tortured 3. attempted ransom
daveme7 1 year ago
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones Besides being the only red haired American for mile and pulling out my VA ID which states 2 purploe hearts disabled vet and my retiree ID card-what would be the chances of me surviving when a simpla google search of my name will reveal I fought in Iraq? so do you think a bit of common sense should enter into my mind where what Servetus did would be like me showing up at a Muslim temple where much is controlled by Muslims
daveme7 1 year ago
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones To me, this is nothing short of slander because most non Calvinists falsely accuse of worshipping Calvin whan Calvin was dead about 64 yrs when they started conceptualizing TULIP. I tell you, Catholicism has done more then one man but this does not cause anyone to deny the Trinity. If this is the standard of the righteousness of a doctrine or belief-I fear we are all screwed in a big kind of way
daveme7 1 year ago
First of all: bible quoting has no effect on me. I do not take the bible literally, nor do I think it was written by God Himself. Secondly, calvinism can be debunked by quoting that same Bible. Ezechiel 18, the entire chapter, demonstrates that original sin does not exist. Thirdly, if calvinism was true, that would make God the author of sin.
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 2 years ago
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones First, we need to deal with somethings and forget about Calvinism for right now-have you ever placed faith in Christ for salvation and let us know how you did this. Salvation is utterly more important as opposed to John Calvin or Jakob Arminius
daveme7 1 year ago
Aside from being historically inaccurate (given that ALL of Europe wanted Servetus dead), this video isn't even funny at all.
APSOC38 2 years ago
Servetus was a bitch.
Thomistica 2 years ago
So, what we have is the genetic fallacy. When are haters of Calvinism gonna debate the facts of scripture rather than presenting one fallacy after another?
fivepointbaptist 2 years ago
The fact is, if Calvinism is correct, God is the author of sin. Deal with that, fivepointbaptist.
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 2 years ago
I don't have a problem with that. Is there something in scripture that states that God cannot be the author of sin or do you simply invoke your own philosophy and become Gods judge?
fivepointbaptist 2 years ago
That's great. You worship that 'god' all you want, he sure ain't mine.
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 2 years ago
No problem. I'll worship a sovereign God who has a purpose for everything, including evil. You worship an impotent god who is defeated by the almighty will of man every day, where evil occurs for absolutely no purpose.
Proverbs 16:4
I have created everything for a purpose, even the wicked for the day of evil.
fivepointbaptist 2 years ago
@fivepointbaptist You do that
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 2 years ago
Thank you, I will.
fivepointbaptist 2 years ago
@fivepointbaptist... No, you 'will' nothing. God will, right?
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 2 years ago
Comments like this only reveal your utter ignorance of the subject. Time to do some studying.
fivepointbaptist 2 years ago
I've studied calvinism inside and out. The end result is that calvinism espouses a monstrous deity and reduces his creation to a puppet theater with a cosmic Caligula pulling the strings. I dare you to come to any other conclusion based on Calvin's own writings - and those of Beza as well.
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 2 years ago
This is the difference between going outside of the bible for your philosophy and sticking with the bible. You use pagan philosophy to dictate right and wrong; the Calvinist uses the bible.
fivepointbaptist 2 years ago
I don't see the bible as infallible, indeed. I adhere to Origines' stance that taking the bible literally is not a wise idea. Also: why have so many books been LEFT OUT of the canon?
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 2 years ago
Wow! Our differences on Calvinism is the least of your problems. May the Lord reveal the truth to you.
fivepointbaptist 2 years ago
@fivepointbaptist Your lord isn't mine. And his truth isn't mine. My Lord wills no evil.
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 1 year ago
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones Yes, you lord is impotent; I understand. Your a dualist which has nothing to do with Christianity; time to repent.
fivepointbaptist 1 year ago
@fivepointbaptist I hope you realize that you have just blasphemed God. It is you that needs to repent of your heresy. You defame the character of God with your false doctrines.
StandForTheFaith 1 year ago
@fivepointbaptist You worship a god who you acknowledge is the author of sin. Next time you walk up to a rape victim, tell her 'god has a special plan for her', and that 'he could have prevented the rape but didn't' for his own 'special purposes'. The day I worship the calvinist cult god is the day I believe there is no difference in right and wrong.
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 1 year ago
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones And next time you talk with a rape victim, tell them that God had the power to stop the rapist but He didn't because He respected the free will of the rapist more than He respected her security.
fivepointbaptist 1 year ago
@fivepointbaptist The calvinist cult god respects neither... just his own ego. Which PREDESTINED some to be raped UNCONDITIONALLY. Justify that.
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 1 year ago
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones How dare God seek His own Glory; Who does He think He is?
fivepointbaptist 1 year ago
@fivepointbaptist A God of Love who wants all men to be saved.
1 Timothy 2:3-5 NIV
3This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
StandForTheFaith 1 year ago
@fivepointbaptist In your case, he is the calvinist cult deity who doesn't give a crap about anything or anyone but his sovereign self.
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 1 year ago
@fivepointbaptist That is interesting: the thing you said about rape. It makes me think that if one man can have control over another's free will (like when my brother got raped in prison), but yet God cannot. My brothers free will would be that he did not have a penis entering his asshole, yet despite his will, it happened anyway. So, man can do what God cannot apparently.
1tmoch 1 year ago
I have a question or maybve an observation-you realize Calvin diod not teach TULIP nor never did as this was done in the Synod of Dort which I am sure you know there is like about 18-19 points and not just five as this was commissioned by King James of England.
But the real question as I saw you replied of a God who does not threaten-my questin is this: If God nebver imposes his will on mankind , then does not judging people as ;lost and worthy of hell-isnt this imposing on the free will
daveme7 2 years ago
Is this not imposiong on the free will of man-do you really think it is the will of man to be tortured forever with hell fire?
Honestly, to me the saddest thing is to see salvation however concoieved as a bad thing if imposed by God on an unwilling man-and this seen as evil-when salvation is sin-I ope you understand I have some problems with seeing salvation as sin when clearly ijn Psalms 14 and 53 restated about all mankind by Paul in Romans 3-there is nons that seek after God
daveme7 2 years ago
So when reading Psalms 14 and 53, the only conclusiopn I have is God's foreknoweldge is indeed knowledge by action, by the choice of God since it seems apparently in the one place it states God looks on the childeren of men-the conclusion being that God reckoned they all are guiloty and every single one of us chose hell fire and damnation and not one chose faoith in God or trying to even understand God
daveme7 2 years ago
Ultimately it ends up being for many of us-well at least as far as I am concerned-I usually embrace whatever people accuse of. It is better to be a robot or puppet for God, as IO say a slave to God then rather be the King of hell. Somehow tose angels flying around the throne of God crying the holiness of God which causes the doors of heaven to move. I somehow tink they do not think they were jipped for being made "puppets" for God. I praise God whene3ver someonhe says we
daveme7 2 years ago
I praise the Lord when people speak of God "forcing" people to be saved and I will bellow out a loud Amen I am glad for this for without it-we all will be in hell and hope God forces billions more to be saved. On the other hand-when we are seen as puppets as clowns, as robots for God-I will tell you bpreach it brother-in Ephesians 2:10 teaches we are the creation of God(JOhn 3:16) there is no better of a love when God loves those who absolutely hate God and saves us despite ourselves
daveme7 2 years ago
@daveme7 Can you force someone to love you? I don't think you understand the God of Love. God sent his Son as an atonement for the sins of the world. Those that accept Christ are saved, those that reject Christ are damned.
According to your twisted theology you are saying that God predestines some to reject his very own Son. I happen to consider that blasphemy. You need to repent of this Calvinistic heresy which is a cruel man-made religious system.
StandForTheFaith 1 year ago
@StandForTheFaith If you look at my words, I never taught such a thing as basically this is assumptive. Man is dammed because man decided to rebel against God(Adam) and become self reliant. basically predestined to hell is a logic argument but not a scriptural one as God does not always conform to our thinking.
daveme7 1 year ago
@daveme7 Do you believe that God only predestines some to salvation and not others? If so then the others are predestined to Hell by default.
StandForTheFaith 1 year ago
@StandForTheFaith Again, this is an assumption not in evidance. Do you think it might be possible that the Lord usually does not conform to our understanding? If you beklieve in eternal security-you believe and teach a license to sin. If you believe you can lose your salvation-you are teaching salvation by works
daveme7 1 year ago
@daveme7 You are saved by faith. You need to keep the faith. Faith is not a work.
StandForTheFaith 1 year ago
@StandForTheFaith If you believe Lordship Salvation, you have to overcome every sin in subjection to God as Lord, If you believe in repentance-you believe salvation by works-if you do not-you become a Popish figure to determine who is saved by praying a prayer. If you believe in the Trinityt-you believe Neo platonism as panthiesm, If you believe in Christ-you are a backwards simpleton easily decieved and excitable by the news of the day
daveme7 1 year ago
@daveme7 Repentance is not a work and neither is faith. If you have not repented and put your faith in Christ as the Bible dictates then you are not saved.
StandForTheFaith 1 year ago
@StandForTheFaith Actually heard this today for the first time-if you believe in the apocalypse and also said about Christ-your shadow self, your false self-ego converges with basic forms which the most base one is belief-so believing the apocalypse makes you irrational and you are dangerous-must be closely watched which I think is a pretext to lock Christians up.
daveme7 1 year ago
@StandForTheFaith The point is, trhere is much that is assumed and the assunption makes perfectly logical sense andthe ones given are the first to come to mind..It is not logic that determines truth but the bible does. We can make all kinds of judgments and understandings based on logic in the scriptures-Christ does not conform to us but we conform to Christ
daveme7 1 year ago
@daveme7 The Bible contains the truth but it is the heretics that misuse the scriptures just like the Devil did when he was tempting Jesus.
StandForTheFaith 1 year ago
@StandForTheFaith I might have sent the same post twice by accident-this is where all Christians should be. I have no problems departing from what i believe if you or God teaches why this is wrong. I am willing to look at about anything and often do read books against my beliefs. What you are talking about in using logic(you might not be aware of this) but this is rationalism which denies the bible-not because the bible is never rational for it is-irrationality is understood in faith
daveme7 1 year ago
@daveme7 God tells you to reason. Paul reasoned using the scriptures. I do not put my trust in the opinions or theology of men. I test everything against the scriptures. Calvinism is not Biblical. Calvinism is anti-gospel and defames the character of God. It makes the Gospel of Christ powerless when the Bible states just the opposite.
StandForTheFaith 1 year ago
@StandForTheFaith If I am to go by the bible-then those condemmed to hell are condemmed because of our sin and rebellion in refusal to obey by placing faith in Christ. When a President or governor pardons someone-are they responsible for the guilt of all the rest of prisoners?
daveme7 1 year ago
@daveme7 What are you talking about? What do you think the Gospel is for? The Gospel is presented and the Holy Spirit convicts. It is up to man whether to accept or reject the Gospel of Christ.
Without faith it is impossible to please God. You are the one who needs to believe and have faith in Christ. It isn't forced on you or else it wouldn't really be faith. Just like love cannot be forced or it wouldn't really be love.
StandForTheFaith 1 year ago
@StandForTheFaith That is where I disagree. Basically Psalms 14 and 53 is re quoted by Paul in Romans 3 in many words including, "There is none that seek after God". THis kind of detroying the whole noton of God foreknows who will place faith in him for salvation as basically-these teach the opposite-God looked down from heaven and saw every single person reject God. God judges people to hell not on predestination or election but judges according to hos holiness and frighteousness
daveme7 1 year ago
@daveme7 God looks at the heart. He chooses based on his foreknowledge. You are ignoring a lot of other scriptures and misusing the ones you are using.
Ever heard of David? He was a man after God's own heart.
Ever heard of poetic exaggeration?
StandForTheFaith 1 year ago
@StandForTheFaith And it was King David who penned Psalms 14 and 53 that Paul quoted in Psalms 3 as not just for some people as sinful but for all people. In fact-I dare to say these passages contradicts your conceptions of foreknowledge. Just look at those and you will see God did look down on mankind and saw none.
daveme7 1 year ago
@daveme7 I think you missed my point regarding poetic exaggeration. Just focus on a few verses to support your false theology and ignore the rest of the Bible and the true nature of God which is Love.
Did you forget Noah, Lot, Job, etc? You don't want the truth you just want to make people think like you do. The truth is in the scriptures and not in the twisted theology of Calvin who got his twisted ideas from Augustine.
StandForTheFaith 1 year ago
@StandForTheFaith Ummm-perhaps also Romans 8 and Ephesians 1-John 6 and ummm I am not giving a few scattered verses sprinkled here and there with something that might sound like it teaces my doctrine...ummm...as A Christian the first and most importent thing I learned about bible study is context, context, context!
daveme7 1 year ago
@StandForTheFaith So basically-you say your position is the scriptural position-and mine is not. Yet-I am the only one referrancing scriptures. Oh yes-nice job avoiding answering scriptures that do not teach your position by falsely accusing me of twisting a few bverses here and there-again-I am giving whole CHAPTERS
daveme7 1 year ago
@daveme7 What I am saying is that your position is not biblical. Your theology comes from a man who used select verses to support his doctrines instead of letting the whole of scripture dictate sound doctrine.
I gave you tons of scriptures so don't lie.
StandForTheFaith 1 year ago
@StandForTheFaith Again, "select verses" Romans 8, 9, and 11-are these a few sprinkled verses or whole chapters. If you were accused of using a few scattered verses knowing you gave whole chapters both from the Old Testament and the NEW-what would you think if this was said about you?If the person you are challenging refuses to deal with the texts and never brings their own-what would you think? Me-too much pride in what the other person does
daveme7 1 year ago
@daveme7 I would say that if you take the position of Calvinism then that means that you have a distorted image of who God really is and are basing your theology on that and taking select verses to try to prove your false doctrines instead of letting the scriptures reveal who God really is and that he wants all men to be saved and why he sent his Son Jesus to take away the sins of the world. Christ paid the sin penalty in full. He died for all sins which would apply to all men.
StandForTheFaith 1 year ago
@StandForTheFaith SELECT VERSES? I do not think I ever gave individual verses as I said whole chapters you refuse to show how they do ot oppose your voiew. Good job-sling that mud. When your pastorpreaches something you disagree wit-do you put your fingers in your ears screaming-It's heresy, It's heresy! Last I checked-accusations are not proof-show in the chapters given how I err in interpreting them
daveme7 1 year ago
@StandForTheFaith 1 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good. 2 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God. 3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthya: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
So how does this not teach everysingle one of us rejected God?
daveme7 1 year ago
@daveme7 Did you miss the part about the God-fearing Greeks and the centurion?
StandForTheFaith 1 year ago
@daveme7 Here is a very clear verse that makes this distinction between all men and those that are saved or as you would call it, the elect.
1 Timothy 4:9,10 NIV
9This is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance 10(and for this we labor and strive), that we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe.
StandForTheFaith 1 year ago
@StandForTheFaith Few veerses or full chapters? Here is another one-Isaiah 55. When someone tells you that you are wrong after posting chapters of what teaches a doctrine and the person tells you your conclusions are invalid because of sprinkling a bit here and there and refuses to deal with the scriptures presented-what would you think about if this was done to do
daveme7 1 year ago
@daveme7 Dave: I have studied calvinism for nine years now. I know all the scripture verses calvinists like to pop out in the open to justify predestination. And the end result of calvinism is: God is the author of sin, God willed the fall of man and God, in his own pleasure, decided before the beginning of it all who would be saved and who would be damned for all eternity. That, my friend, is not love. It's not even irrational. It's monstrous.
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 1 year ago
@daveme7 God wants all men saved but not all will be saved. It is the Devil, and not God, that wants people to be damned. You give the attributes of the Devil to God when you suggest God predestines some to damnation.
Luke 8:11,12 NIV
11"This is the meaning of the parable: The seed is the word of God. 12Those along the path are the ones who hear, and then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved.
StandForTheFaith 1 year ago
@StandForTheFaith MY conclusion would be-1. You do not know how to study-fair enough-not something to be ashamed of. 2.That passage teaches against your own beliefs and would have to start repenting of your understanding or perhaps throw a red herring and say I am confused, interpreting wrong, or something else to invalidate the meaning drawn from the bible. We do notsubject the bible to us, we subject ourselves to the bible
daveme7 1 year ago
@daveme7 Subject yourself to what God says in this scripture and do not falsely substitute the word "all" for the word "elect".
1 Timothy 2:3-5 NIV
3This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
StandForTheFaith 1 year ago
@StandForTheFaith Poetic exageration=what I tell people when my views conflict with the bible.
Oh yes, I only go by the bible or theologies of man so I will take this here literary device not defined by the bible and use this so I do not have to think about scriptures that contradict my understanding
daveme7 1 year ago
@StandForTheFaith Could you show me how the passages I citesd are poetic exxagerations like-which lines/verses/words?
daveme7 1 year ago
@StandForTheFaith You mean God never looks at actions? If we say it is only the heart-the bible teaches the heart of humanity is desperately wicked. So if we only go by the teachings of the bible and conclude God looks at the heart-the same esult happens-everyone in rebellion against God
daveme7 1 year ago
@daveme7 Your actions are a direct result of what is in your heart. Scripture states God looks at the heart.
1 Samuel 16:7 NIV
But the LORD said to Samuel, "Do not consider his appearance or his height, for I have rejected him. The LORD does not look at the things man looks at. Man looks at the outward appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart."
Acts 13:22 NIV
He testified concerning him: 'I have found David son of Jesse a man after my own heart; he will do everything I want him to do.'
StandForTheFaith 1 year ago
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@StandForTheFaith 9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? 10 I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings. 11 As the partridge sittethd on eggs, and hatcheth them not; so he that getteth riches, and not by right, shall leave them in the midst of his days, and at his end shall be a fool.
daveme7 1 year ago
@daveme7 Okay, so based on your thinking then since everyone deserves to go to Hell then everyone should and God should save no one. God saving some and damning others just because he can goes against his nature of love, mercy and justice. Since God wants all to be saved according to the Bible then according to your flawed theology God should force everyone to believe. Since everyone is not forced to believe then there is a missing element in the equation which happens to be man's choice.
StandForTheFaith 1 year ago
@StandForTheFaith Call it whatever you to say that-yes-I pray God forces Billions to be saved and that God would use me in preaching the gospel. The point I would bring is from what I have seen from many like you is seeing salvation as violating the free will of man is somehow wrong almost to the point I wander if people realize basically salvation is a sin because God violated the free will of man
daveme7 1 year ago
@daveme7 That is really twisted thinking. God doesn't force you to believe. Like I have already stated more than once it is impossible to please God without faith. God cannot force you to love him. You are being ridiculous and illogical.
No point preaching the Gospel of Christ if you are a Calvinist since you have made the Gospel to be of no effect because of your false teaching stating God predestines some to Hell just because he can. That is what you think but it is not true.
StandForTheFaith 1 year ago
@StandForTheFaith Yhat would be called embracing false accusations of my beliefs. That is the whole point of Calvinism-we cannot convince anyone of salvation-that is the work of the Spirit of God and as empty vessels when the only good thing in us is Christ and his Spirit. Our job is to obery, eveangelise by preaching the gospel whether one on one or with an audiance of 10,000 people
daveme7 1 year ago
@StandForTheFaith I do not believe I ever said that. What I have said and trying to be consistant in all I write and teach-every single one of us deserves hell. Do you disagree with this and if so-why-according to scriptures?
daveme7 1 year ago
@daveme7 What I am saying is that God loves the world and sent his Son as a final sacrifice to atone for the sins of the world. Do you disagree that Christ is the Lamb that takes away the sin of the world? Do you disagree that God wants all men to be saved?
Romans 5:18 NIV
18Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men.
Again, are you calling God a liar?
StandForTheFaith 1 year ago
@StandForTheFaith Let me reset this 1. Every person deserves hell and the judgement of God 2. If God saved no one-God would be still just, holy, and loving. 3. Every single person chooses to hate God and in free will always chooses self redemption by self determination of sin and self righteousness. 4.Only when God elects is anyone ever saved. I am always shocked when I see people accuse God of sin according ththeir thinking and not the bible when God judging sinners is seen as sinful
daveme7 1 year ago
@daveme7
2 Peter 3:9 NIV
9The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
2 Thessalonians 2:10 NIV
They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.
Acts 16:30,31 NIV
30He then brought them out and asked, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" 31They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household."
StandForTheFaith 1 year ago
@StandForTheFaith The question is do you have any conceptions of theological history? The whole point of the reformation was over this issue when Catholicism in a money making scheme had indulgances. When Luther tacked his 95 theses-it was all about Calvinism(when not known as that at the time). The whole thing of by faith, grace, Christ, and the bible alone was concieved by Calvinists
daveme7 1 year ago
@daveme7 The question is do you have any conceptions of biblical truth and sound doctrine? Not if you listen to the Calvinistic heresies that Calvin got from Augustine.
Funny that Calvin claimed the Bible alone when he got his theories from Augustine and his own human philosophy.
Grace is unmerited favor. Faith is not a work. Without faith it is impossible to please God.
StandForTheFaith 1 year ago
@StandForTheFaith No doubt I do not disagree-why sometimes I mention faith as belief in John 3:16-the Greek constructions would be equivalent of a perpetual present tense that never ends, Paul wrote in Romans 1 the just shall live by faith, James 2 teaches faith without works is dead-not that works complete but works reveal what manner of faith we have. In Romans 11 faith is also defined as the evidance of things not seen.
daveme7 1 year ago
@StandForTheFaith So are you saying when Augustine withstood Pelagius-he was wrong? Particular to this-it almost does not matter where Calvin fot his beliefs from0I did not get mine from him. I was challanged by a Calvinist to not read books for or against but only stdy the bible and ask God to teaqch you the truth. This while in an IFB college that hated Calvinism a whole lot more then ou and always wander how did I learn this in that circumstance?
daveme7 1 year ago
@StandForTheFaith I am not sure if I said this here-but about 3 years before buying a work of Calvin(Institutes) or any other Calvinist teaching election and Calvinism. Mainly i was shocked once I prayed for God to teach me-it was rather quick because it was like ine day of studying but waited a few weeks of continued study because when you turn 180 from your own belief system-you want to make sure you are not percieving things incorretly
daveme7 1 year ago
@daveme7 A lot of people claim God revealed something to them but that doesn't make it true. A lot of cult leaders claim the same thing that you are doing. The test is the scriptures.
StandForTheFaith 1 year ago
@StandForTheFaith The whole reason why I did not buy anything from anyone teaching Calvinism(I am sure I bought some because most often we do not always know who claimed Calvinism lik Matthew Henry or Charles Spurgeon-so perhaps I did but not for the inus of reaffirming my own beliefs-several years later I learned they were Calvinists)
daveme7 1 year ago
@StandForTheFaith To this point-in those three years-to make sure I am co9rrect in my understanding-read several anti Calvinist books to challenge my own understanding and not clouding the issue of relying on Calvin or Luther but the bible alone. Besides this(what most non calvinists fail to understand) is Calvin never taught Limited atonement or origiated TULIP. Right now am looking into if he taught irrisistable grace they way Calvinists define this as I disagree with Calvinists on this issue
daveme7 1 year ago
@daveme7 The Bible tells you to test all doctrines against the scriptures not man's anti or pro anything.
Acts 17:11 NIV
Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.
StandForTheFaith 1 year ago
@StandForTheFaith In other words, this thing you concieve that if one believes in election does not believe in salvation by faith and through grace is completely backwards of the start of the reformation. I cannot remember but about 12-13 is when I first placed faith in Chris about 25 yrs ago. To judge anothers salvation when you have no conception of any theological history gets a bit dangerous. I have talked to many and not one time questioned their faith because we disagreed
daveme7 1 year ago
@daveme7 Really? The plan of salvation is laid out in the scriptures and is even simple and plain enough for a child to understand. The Calvinistic view is contrary to the biblical view.
Calvinism says that God forces you to believe and regenerates you first and then gives you faith to believe whether you want to be saved or not.
The Bible states you need to repent and believe and have faith in Christ first and then you are regenerated and sealed with the Holy Spirit.
StandForTheFaith 1 year ago
@StandForTheFaith The is another misconception. Calvinism is not the gospel preached though it contains elements of the gospel. It was an Apologetic i.e. defense of what reformed Christians believed and accusation of the beliefs of Armineism. Again, I do not disagree as I see Calvinists paint themselves into a logical corner about faith. (why I do not believe irrisistable grace most C's define it
daveme7 1 year ago
@daveme7 Calvinism is anti-gospel because it basically claims you are saved before you are really saved. For a Calvinist to preach the gospel is pointless since they don't believe it has any power to save people. Calvinism is not biblical salvation they have the order backwards.
As for irresistible grace? That is false since there are many verses stating that people resisted the Holy Spirit.
StandForTheFaith 1 year ago
@StandForTheFaith On the other hand-have any resources showing Calvinists taught God forced people to be saved. I tend to think-that is your own assumption. Of course, speaking of God as a loving God-forcing people to be saved(if you want to use that conception) is the most loving thing he could do-more loving as saving from hell fire as opposed to freely offering salvation and letting humanity make their own decisions.
daveme7 1 year ago
@daveme7 That is twisted thinking. God wants all to be saved but not all will be saved. Therefore man chooses when he hears the gospel whether to accept it and Christ or to reject it.
StandForTheFaith 1 year ago
@daveme7 Calvinism lies about God, says he damns people to Hell just because he can. The Bible shows that God is Love and sent his son to atone for the sins of the whole world and that salvation is for anyone that places their faith in Christ.
Calvinism claims you don't have to have faith and believe. The Bible states that without faith it is impossible to please God.
Calvinism takes away personal accountability whereas the Bible holds man accountable for either accepting or rejecting Christ
StandForTheFaith 1 year ago
@StandForTheFaith Somehow when I hear this-I think of Romans 9 13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. 15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
daveme7 1 year ago
@daveme7 Jacob represents what? Esau represents what?
Genesis 32:28 NIV
Then the man said, "Your name will no longer be Jacob, but Israel, because you have struggled with God and with men and have overcome."
Israel are God's chosen people yet they rebelled, worshiped foreign gods, and ultimately rejected Christ. According to your logic all of Israel should have accepted Christ and been saved.
StandForTheFaith 1 year ago
@StandForTheFaith Whats your point? If Paul would have wrote alice and sue in there-the main emphasis is when God elects but not all-there is no unrighteousness with God that you keep accusing the Lord of sin
daveme7 1 year ago
@daveme7 Romans 9 speaks of a prophecy made in Maleachi. Esau does not refer to the individual Esau, but to his 'offspring', the Edomites, who helped destroy the temple along with the Babylonians. It has nothing to do with the person Esau. It couldn't, either, check Ezechiel 18:1-4.
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 1 year ago
@daveme7 That is talking about nations and not to be applied to individual salvation.
Genesis 25:22,23 NIV 22 The babies jostled each other within her, and she said, "Why is this happening to me?" So she went to inquire of the LORD. 23 The LORD said to her, "Two nations are in your womb, and two peoples from within you will be separated; one people will be stronger than the other, and the older will serve the younger."
StandForTheFaith 1 year ago
@daveme7
Malachi 1:3 NIV
3 but Esau I have hated, and I have turned his mountains into a wasteland and left his inheritance to the desert jackals."
StandForTheFaith 1 year ago
@StandForTheFaith Also this reminds me of Psalms 12. I would quote the whole chapter but that is too big. There is one pivotal verse non Calvinist arguments and beliefs remind me of:4 Who have said, With our tongue will we prevail; our lips are our own: who is lord over us?
daveme7 1 year ago
@daveme7 This is just one more case of you taking scriptures out of context. Psalms 12 is talking about God protecting the oppressed from evil people. This verse does not support Calvinism whatsoever.
StandForTheFaith 1 year ago
@StandForTheFaith The point being-God does not answer to David Emme
daveme7 1 year ago
@daveme7 Speaking of theological history. The early Church Fathers such as Irenaeus upheld the truth about free will. Irenaeus who was a disciple of Polycarp who was a disciple of St John the Apostle. He spoke out against Gnostic heresies.
Other than that the plan of salvation is based on the scriptures and not theological history as you call it.
The Bible tells you how to be saved not Calvin and his evil twisted theology. You are following men and not God.
StandForTheFaith 1 year ago
@StandForTheFaith You are right, it is up to man kind to accept or reject the gospel. I do n ot disagree. What the scriptures teach is every single one of us rejected the gospel. I know this is not easy to take the bible for what it says like, "There was none that seeks after God" Where in this statement do you find man placing faith in Christ? I do not see it. When challanged on this, I went to where Paul quoted from in Psalms 14 and 53
daveme7 1 year ago
@daveme7
Romans 1:16 NIV
16I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile.
Ephesians 1:13 NIV
13And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,
Acts 24:24 NIV
He sent for Paul and listened to him as he spoke about faith in Christ Jesus.
StandForTheFaith 1 year ago
@daveme7
Romans 3:22 NIV
This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe.
Romans 10:17 NIV
Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ.
Gal 2:16 NIV
a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified.
StandForTheFaith 1 year ago
@StandForTheFaith Know what a Red Herring is? It is what you have been doing the whole time-I mention a verse or passage and instead of dealing with it-throw some other passages out there. Very nice, I enjoyed the verses you quoted.
daveme7 1 year ago
@StandForTheFaith The fact is I brought passages that teaches the complete understanding is that every single person departs from God. If it is left up to mankind-there would be no one saved. Psalms 14, 53-to make a judgement about how I use scripture does not make these chapters wrong and feel you should answer if this does not teach every single person depars from God in rebellion and never returns to God
daveme7 1 year ago
@daveme7 I already gave the God-fearing Greeks as an example. Also the Centurion who was not saved.
Acts 10:22 NIV
22The men replied, "We have come from Cornelius the centurion. He is a righteous and God-fearing man, who is respected by all the Jewish people. A holy angel told him to have you come to his house so that he could hear what you have to say."
StandForTheFaith 1 year ago
@daveme7 Everyone is born with a fallen nature. Christ is the one who reconciles us back to God. Christ said when he was lifted up he will draw all men. Drawing is like wooing it is not forcing. Just like when you are courting you can woo your mate but you can't force her to want you or love you. God is a God of Love. He doesn't want anyone to perish but all to come to repentance and a knowledge of the truth. God wants all men saved. But not all will be.
StandForTheFaith 1 year ago
@StandForTheFaith God is more so a God of holiness and love and holiness are never in conflict. Looking on what I wrote about in Psalms 14/53 and Romans 3-Then God must pardon all which goes into universalism which is a heresy. I always wander, have you ever looked into who believes in free will? Personally I would say go and study Anton Levay and Alister Crowley
daveme7 1 year ago
@daveme7 Okay, that is just stupid. God tells us to repent. We are told to believe in Christ. You are judged on the basis of whether or not you accept or reject Christ.
StandForTheFaith 1 year ago
@StandForTheFaith When free will allows man to choose against God or to choose unrighteousness-I just do not get how this is a gift from God that enables men to choose evil-great gift-God gave this gift and Hitler used it to kill 5 million of his foreknown people. I do not know about you-but that tends to(now because of studies and understanding) that free will is not a good thing.
daveme7 1 year ago
@daveme7 How long do you want to keep arguing with me? God created man as a free moral agent. He disobeyed God and lost his innocence. Where does it say in Genesis that man lost his free will as a curse? It doesn't. Man lost his innocence and his relationship with God was severed.
Did you neglect all the verses where God tells people to choose. He sets before them life and death and tells them to choose life.
StandForTheFaith 1 year ago
@daveme7 If Hitler did not act out of free will, then who is responsible for the Holocaust, dave? It can't be the devil, for he has no power over God's plans.
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 1 year ago
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones You have been missing what I have said(a lot of comments so not trying to insult) I believe man haqs free will and has not otherwise said that man does not. Basically-I believe free will is the sin nature-the knowledge of good and evil from Gen 3
daveme7 1 year ago
@StandForTheFaith Not sure if I shared this-was not looking for this as an answer when discovered but more and less in studying sanctification(you will love my teaching on that) as basically the sin nature is the knowledge of good and evil. In other words-the sin nature is free will.
daveme7 1 year ago
@daveme7 That's not what the Bible teaches. God holds man accountable for his choices. Did you know that God gives everyone a conscience? That's what the Bible states.
StandForTheFaith 1 year ago
@StandForTheFaith Have you ever read Romans 3? I just wander what it means when it says there is no fear of God before their eyes. This is a description of the fallen nature. Have you ever thought to see when it says there is none that seek after God is tied to the sin nature and does not stand apart as something else but only the sin nature?
daveme7 1 year ago
@daveme7 Have you read this verse?
Romans 2:14,15 NIV
14(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.)
StandForTheFaith 1 year ago
@daveme7 This verse is talking about an unsaved gentile.
Acts 10 NIV
2He and all his family were devout and God-fearing; he gave generously to those in need and prayed to God regularly.
22The men replied, "We have come from Cornelius the centurion. He is a righteous and God-fearing man, who is respected by all the Jewish people.
34Then Peter began to speak: "I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism 35but accepts men from every nation who fear him and do what is right.
StandForTheFaith 1 year ago
@daveme7 Here are some more.
Acts 13:26 NIV
26"Brothers, children of Abraham, and you God-fearing Gentiles, it is to us that this message of salvation has been sent.
Acts 17:4 NIV
"This Jesus I am proclaiming to you is the Christ,[b]" he said. 4Some of the Jews were persuaded and joined Paul and Silas, as did a large number of God-fearing Greeks and not a few prominent women.
Acts 17:17 NIV
17So he reasoned in the synagogue with the Jews and the God-fearing Greeks,
StandForTheFaith 1 year ago
@daveme7
Deuteronomy 24:16 NIV
16 Fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their fathers; each is to die for his own sin.
StandForTheFaith 1 year ago
@StandForTheFaith I agree whole heartedly as Christ judges those who hate God and forsake and rebell against God. I wander, have you ever noticed not that many remain faithfull in the scriptures? After everything God brought Israel through in freeing them from slavery-when Moses comes back with spending time with God-Every single person is seen as worshipping a golden calf-idolatry
daveme7 1 year ago
@daveme7 What does that have to do with Calvinism? In fact in a backwards way you just have proven Calvinism to be false. Israel was chosen as God's elect yet they disobeyed, chased after false gods, and rejected him. This proves that you can resist God and the Holy Spirit.
StandForTheFaith 1 year ago
@StandForTheFaith It is not that I do not think you misunderstand the God of love, I just do not think you understand the bible. Psalms 14, 53, Romans 3, Isaiah53 all teach the same exact thing-every single person chose to reject God-and yes-in the context of foreknow;edge of yuou say this is foreseen faith. In all of these passages-the only faith foreseen is faith in self and rejection of God
daveme7 1 year ago
@daveme7 Ever heard of David, Job, etc. What you are saying is false. Even in the NT there is reference to the God-fearing Greeks and these people were not saved.
2 Chronicles 11:16 NIV
Those from every tribe of Israel who set their hearts on seeking the LORD,
Hebrews 11:6 NIV
And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.
StandForTheFaith 1 year ago
@StandForTheFaith I am afraid most Calvinists do not have a conception of what I am going to say. You say God fearing-if someone fears God, God will grant repentance. I just do not think many do. I think-many worship themselves. Even Catholicism has one doiung all these works to love and fear God. The question for me is what is sin-my answer-the knowledge of Good and evil.
daveme7 1 year ago
@daveme7 You are all over the place. What is the beginning of knowledge? Is it not the fear of God?
Proverbs 9:10 NIV
10 "The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom, and knowledge of the Holy One is understanding.
Psalm 25:14 NIV
The LORD confides in those who fear him; he makes his covenant known to them.
StandForTheFaith 1 year ago
@StandForTheFaith In this, when we are self sufficient and self determined of what is righteous-does not matter f it lines up with the bible-self suffinciency and self righteousness is abhorred by God. There is a reason why rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft and has everything to do with Soveriegnty in Genesis 3. They might be God fearing people but the God they fear are themselves-not Jesus Chrst
daveme7 1 year ago
@daveme7 You are not making any sense whatsoever. God has made it plain to everyone that he exists through his creation. Those that fear God and seek him will find him.
Paul preached to the God-fearing Greeks and they converted. The philosophies of men such as Calvin are an insult to God and to the blood of Christ that was shed on the cross for the sins of the world not just the elect. The free gift of salvation is received by faith. You need to believe and have faith.
StandForTheFaith 1 year ago
@StandForTheFaith Never said God just died for the elect-I am afraid you are in error here.
daveme7 1 year ago
@StandForTheFaith BTW, after accepting Calvinism-not sure if it is 2.5 or to 3 years before I read anything by a Calvinist-well except the biblical authors. The point is this-I challange my Calvinist bretheren as well as I think about 6 months ago on this challange and have yet to seen one produce evidance Calvin ever taught Limited Atonement
daveme7 1 year ago
@daveme7 So are you saying that Christ died for the sins of the world? If so then why would God prevent some from being saved through the Gospel of Christ?
You make no sense whatsoever.
StandForTheFaith 1 year ago
@StandForTheFaith We prevent ourselves-go and read psalms 14, 53, Isaiah 53 and Romans 3 and ask God to teach you the truth of these passages and really about Calvinism. I will tell you what a Calvinist told me-ask God to teach you-do not read books for or against Calvinism and study the scriptures begging for understanding and wisdom
daveme7 1 year ago
@daveme7 Calvinism is at odds with biblical truth. I was saved a long time ago and did read the Bible way before I ever even heard of Calvinism and I'm telling you that after reading some of his Institutes of the Christian Religion it makes me sick in my spirit. Calvinism is evil. It makes God the author of evil. It makes God into a cruel and sadistic tyrant. You are deceived. Calvinism is heresy.
StandForTheFaith 1 year ago
@StandForTheFaith essiantially-folowing those steps is how I became a Calvinist in the first place when going to a very Armenian anti Calvinist Baptist Bible College-If God can teach the truth there-he can do it anywhere-rely on God and his Spirit. I woiuld say there is no other reason to speak on these matters because I might convince you of something but I am not God and it is he who must lead you into truth
daveme7 1 year ago
@daveme7 I do not want to be a heretic and believe false doctrines. I have a personal relationship with Christ and I know who God is and Calvin blasphemes the true nature of God. He exchanges the truth for the doctrines and philosophies of men. Based on his fruit alone and all the persecutions it is proven he was not regenerated. He was cold and calculating. No one is perfect but where do you find the Apostles burning heretics at the stake?
StandForTheFaith 1 year ago
@StandForTheFaith Not that I cannot teach all kinds of things that makes common sense-if God is not using me-at some point in time you need to rely on God-he will lead you to ttruth-I can only lead you to my understanding. I believe I am right and have the right understanding-I just pray when I stray-God will chop me good as his son.(You know, so you know God lovesm you)
daveme7 1 year ago
@daveme7 Sorry to burst your bubble but you are not right. The Holy Spirit is the teacher and every doctrine needs to be tested against the scriptures. Calvinist theology fails the test.
StandForTheFaith 1 year ago
@StandForTheFaith I guess when I stated that I waited saeveral years before readin anything about Calvin and Calvinism-why do you think this is? Perhaps I allow for me to be wrong and at somepoint in time while studying scriptures-God would answer my prayers to show me I am wrong.
daveme7 1 year ago