Excellent video with some great points. The pros are already shooting together in "super squads" anyway. UPSPA should absolutely create a "Pro" class to differentiate those shooters from the rest of us. Many professional sports (golf, tennis, auto racing) have "pro-am" competitions. The only issue I see he coming up with a clear definition of exactly who is a pro.... I guess if my paycheck said "Glock" or "Smith & Wesson" on it, I would certainly consider myself a pro! - Phil
consider myself as completely amateur shooter, who managed to attract some sponsors (which is very hard in Europe), now it's normal to advertise their company on my shooting shirt. Does shirt with logos of my sponsors makes me a semi pro? I don't think so, because I still have full time job (nothing to do with shooting) and nobody pays me to shoot. All I've managed to do with sponsors is saving some money. I've came that far with three years of hard work, loving the sport and supporting GF ;)
@TheMaksable Mak - There are a lot of people who are able to attract a sponsor or sponsors, and who are in no way "professional shooters". It's good for shooters, and good for the sponsors to get their name out to the range where others can see it. There certainly should be no effort made to reduce or discourage such arrangements, as it's a win-win for the shooter and the sport.
My friends and I got some because they are cool to wear when it's hot outside and we would rather keep a specific shooting shirt so that our normal clothes didn't get dirty/ruined and when we got to major matchs the RO's can see our names on them. Our friend had a gunsmithing business so we put his logo on there as free advertising for him and everyone always thought we were sponsored by them and asked all types of questions. I want to be low key and not attract any attention. It's a PITA.
@EmanP223 Eman - Isn't the whole point of shirts, with names and logos, to attract attention? If a sponsor were to pay you to wear their name on your shirt, they wouldn't want you to be too low-profile.
@powerfactorshow Maybe, but that wasn't our intenst. Our intent was to provide free advertising for a buddy while not ruining our clothes and staying comfortable. I wouldn't mind another shirt but darker, more subdued with no logo on it. I mean, for mountain biking you wear the clothes for specific reasons just like in other non-main stream sports, why not shooting as well?
Regarding the jersey issue, does it mean that the guy wearing the pro football jersey is a professional athlete? No, it means that guy is a fan of the sport and the team. Also, thanks for making a great show.
@luv2rideWV When I was a kid, the only place you could get a Disneyland shirt or hat was at Disneyland; everyone with the logowear had actually been there, and done that. Now, anyone with a credit card can get a Disneyland shirt; which is better, a wider audience, or exclusivity? If you've never been to Disneyland, why would you want the shirt? Should I care whether or not you've been to Disneyland?
If you take a look at the 60's and 70's, motorcycle racing in the US was facing a similar transition. You were moving from an era where it was largely a hobby (10's into the 60's) through a time where one talented guy could maintain a nationally competitive effort (supported by prize money from the events), into a time where riders are paid six-figure salaries an teams have eight figure budgets. Now we have AMA (pro) WERA Nationals (semi-pro?), and various other club-level (am) orgs/events.
I honestly think they should seperate it to 3 catagories, 1. Am 2. Semi Pro and 3. Pro, because ya'll make a perfect point, your average joe cant even get the practice time to compete with a Pro who gets pallets of ammo and spends all day every day at the range. Its like someone racing their daily driver Corolla in an F1 race..LOL
its seems as though some comments are turning toward being able to differentiate between pros and ams at a reg. match. why does that matter I wonder. Its also important to realize that companies will sponsor many different levels of shooters including those B and C class shooters. It comes down to putting the work in at the range, EARNING those sponsorships, and then keeping them. Like the saying goes, buy the first million and the second is free.
@pries81 I don't think there should be any attempt to "identify" professional, or even "sponsored" shooters. It would be a huge can of worms trying to decide how to define sponsorship, the levels of sponsorship that qualify for pro status, etc. (maybe I differ with Steve and Caleb on that point). That's why I think that if it's necessary to create a pro class or category, that it be up to the shooter to decide if he qualifies, or not. (cont) - Rick
Sandbaggers are going to exist either way. People are always going to cheat this or any system for that matter. That's what shrimp are for. In Florida if you put a shrimp in a certain area of a vehicle... The Florida heat causes a terrible stench. Beware of the shrimp stench aka sandbaggers
@Rick - Match staff should always be taken care of. I would pay extra for matches if I knew it was going to the staff. They are the glue that keeps this thing together.
I vote Open, Limited, and Production overall winners get cash. Then prize table order, 1st GM, 1st, M, 1st A...etc. Those who come in 1st in their division and class hit the prize table, if not already a cash winner. Then all remaining prizes get randomly drawn and given out. That way those who perform at the top of their level get a prize, but then the hobbyist who do it for fun still might win in the random drawing.
@OperationHitFactor I also like to distribute prizes to the winners, along with a random draw, when it's been my decision to make. There is some concern about having class winners walk the prize table early, as it can promote sandbagging. That said, I think it's important that prizes do get distributed throughout the order (if everyone is paying for the prizes, everyone should have a shot at the prizes).
@OperationHitFactor I also think it's important to reward match staff, and at our club we've always had a separate event for staff, with its own prize drawing. I attended one Area championship in which all of the prizes went to staff, and that might not be a bad way to do it, either!
There absolutely should be a professional devision. Anybody that has a sponsor or has won a sectional match or higher should not be on the same prize table as everyone else. I shoot mostly local matches. Which I do well and I have fun. However, there is no way I can compete againest someone that shoots that much. I know guys that don't go to major matches anymore because they know there not going to walk away with any prize or be in the top 5.
@SuperGlocklover There are also top shooters who determine, to some extent, which matches they will attend based on the "return on investment" promised by the prize table. If you are running a match that you want to be a "major", with top competitors, you'd better have a prize table that is based on order-of-finish to attract those shooters. Some shooters who know they won't win, value the ability to compete against the best, so they see that as the return on their investment;
@powerfactorshow For the past two years I have shot at a match in lowell, Iowa called the big dawg steel match. There they hand out cash prizes for the top shooters and have a prize table for everyone else. Everyone gets a prize. I think it keeps everyone coming back to the match.
There is an episode of Top Gear, when they reviewed a "hunting shotgun". The price of the guns included a customised Range Rover, with a gun chest in the boot as well as a annual supply of some posh alcohol free of charge.
Ya gotta love Top Gear. Yes, I think I remember that episode...the shotgun was "rather expensive" as I recall...perhaps a Holland and Holland or something like that....worth (thats a loose term) something like 3x what the Range Rover was worth?
+1 for the official powerfactorshow jersey! I think that people who want to seek sponsorship in exchange for reducing the costs of the sport are a good thing. There's a lot of great vendors out there and I think the ones that support the sport will receive the recognition and business they deserve. We all endorse of products to other shooters while at the range. I wish that businesses would embrace this and even create a way for all of us to get a little break by promoting the products we love.
I Liked this video because it made me think of something that I hadn't paid attention to before! My next comment is that I think you guys should send me a Power Factor Show T-shirt so that I can Officially become one of the Semi-Pro's haha! Seriously though if you do I will totally wear it to all my matches! I am one of those that wants to have some type of sponsor just to be able to do what I love to do more! So tell Caleb to send me some of his extra ammo if he wants! haha!
Good discussions all around. This is a topic I haven't thought that much about. My interest in competition shooting is all about improving my own skills as measured by classifiers and by overall finish within my division. It would be cool to have a low level sponsorship such as free bullets in return for advertising, but at the same time, I would feel worse if I performed poorly while wearing a sponsor's shirt. The shirts I'm most proud of commemorate my labor as a Range Officer for big matches.
In Golf, the "match" that pits amateur and pro's would be the US Open. You still have to qualify to get there but kids in college go up against the greats. Also, you can technically spend years on the PGA tour and still be a amateur. Its just a matter of if you have accepted a cash prize or not. Check out how to get in the US open here.
I've been to alot of matches this past year (5 state/section championships) and yes, about 80% of the shooters do wear the cool fancy jersies...I like to wear my plan colored T-Shirt, usually light green and my Wrangler rip-stop cargo pants...I'm an amateur and can't afford the nice cool shirts.
That way people could still buy and wear jerseys but it would be obvious to others that they are beginners because of the badge or markings. People like jerseys and supporting what they believe in. How many of you own a football jersey?
@bower230 Interesting question. I've never owned a football jersey. I have logo'd sweatshirts, t-shirts, and ballcaps (demonstrating my support of, at various times, the Colts, Pats, Seahawks, Sonics, and Washington Huskies), but never a jersey. I always thought it was weird to have someone else's name on the back of my shirt.
@powerfactorshow Good point. Funny to see me at a match with a Glock jersey and your name on the back!! Ha ha! But, I do support the idea of having 'shooting' jerseys as they are comfortable, made for the sport, and customizable but I do think there should be a way to quickly tell the difference between a newbie and a pro. P.S. thanks for the videos Rick! Check some of mine out. :)
Great video once again. I do not own a shooting jersey but have owned several for the paintball sport. Now, that was a good 10 years ago but that was because my step son was in the sport and I wanted to support him. It was a 'cool' thing to have a jersey and I must admit they are Very comfortable. Never intending that we were pro's. Maybe jerseys should have a 'Pro' or class marking and should only be given to them by their sponsors. All others would have a 'public' marking. My thoughts. :)
Excellent video with some great points. The pros are already shooting together in "super squads" anyway. UPSPA should absolutely create a "Pro" class to differentiate those shooters from the rest of us. Many professional sports (golf, tennis, auto racing) have "pro-am" competitions. The only issue I see he coming up with a clear definition of exactly who is a pro.... I guess if my paycheck said "Glock" or "Smith & Wesson" on it, I would certainly consider myself a pro! - Phil
TonruNomad 4 weeks ago
This has been flagged as spam show
consider myself as completely amateur shooter, who managed to attract some sponsors (which is very hard in Europe), now it's normal to advertise their company on my shooting shirt. Does shirt with logos of my sponsors makes me a semi pro? I don't think so, because I still have full time job (nothing to do with shooting) and nobody pays me to shoot. All I've managed to do with sponsors is saving some money. I've came that far with three years of hard work, loving the sport and supporting GF ;)
TheMaksable 4 weeks ago
@TheMaksable Mak - There are a lot of people who are able to attract a sponsor or sponsors, and who are in no way "professional shooters". It's good for shooters, and good for the sponsors to get their name out to the range where others can see it. There certainly should be no effort made to reduce or discourage such arrangements, as it's a win-win for the shooter and the sport.
Rick
powerfactorshow 4 weeks ago
Comment removed
TheMaksable 4 weeks ago
My friends and I got some because they are cool to wear when it's hot outside and we would rather keep a specific shooting shirt so that our normal clothes didn't get dirty/ruined and when we got to major matchs the RO's can see our names on them. Our friend had a gunsmithing business so we put his logo on there as free advertising for him and everyone always thought we were sponsored by them and asked all types of questions. I want to be low key and not attract any attention. It's a PITA.
EmanP223 4 weeks ago
@EmanP223 Eman - Isn't the whole point of shirts, with names and logos, to attract attention? If a sponsor were to pay you to wear their name on your shirt, they wouldn't want you to be too low-profile.
Rick
powerfactorshow 4 weeks ago
@powerfactorshow Maybe, but that wasn't our intenst. Our intent was to provide free advertising for a buddy while not ruining our clothes and staying comfortable. I wouldn't mind another shirt but darker, more subdued with no logo on it. I mean, for mountain biking you wear the clothes for specific reasons just like in other non-main stream sports, why not shooting as well?
EmanP223 4 weeks ago
Regarding the jersey issue, does it mean that the guy wearing the pro football jersey is a professional athlete? No, it means that guy is a fan of the sport and the team. Also, thanks for making a great show.
luv2rideWV 4 weeks ago
@luv2rideWV When I was a kid, the only place you could get a Disneyland shirt or hat was at Disneyland; everyone with the logowear had actually been there, and done that. Now, anyone with a credit card can get a Disneyland shirt; which is better, a wider audience, or exclusivity? If you've never been to Disneyland, why would you want the shirt? Should I care whether or not you've been to Disneyland?
Rick
powerfactorshow 4 weeks ago
If you take a look at the 60's and 70's, motorcycle racing in the US was facing a similar transition. You were moving from an era where it was largely a hobby (10's into the 60's) through a time where one talented guy could maintain a nationally competitive effort (supported by prize money from the events), into a time where riders are paid six-figure salaries an teams have eight figure budgets. Now we have AMA (pro) WERA Nationals (semi-pro?), and various other club-level (am) orgs/events.
hawker665 4 weeks ago
I honestly think they should seperate it to 3 catagories, 1. Am 2. Semi Pro and 3. Pro, because ya'll make a perfect point, your average joe cant even get the practice time to compete with a Pro who gets pallets of ammo and spends all day every day at the range. Its like someone racing their daily driver Corolla in an F1 race..LOL
TH3G00DS0LDI3R 1 month ago
its seems as though some comments are turning toward being able to differentiate between pros and ams at a reg. match. why does that matter I wonder. Its also important to realize that companies will sponsor many different levels of shooters including those B and C class shooters. It comes down to putting the work in at the range, EARNING those sponsorships, and then keeping them. Like the saying goes, buy the first million and the second is free.
pries81 1 month ago
@pries81 I don't think there should be any attempt to "identify" professional, or even "sponsored" shooters. It would be a huge can of worms trying to decide how to define sponsorship, the levels of sponsorship that qualify for pro status, etc. (maybe I differ with Steve and Caleb on that point). That's why I think that if it's necessary to create a pro class or category, that it be up to the shooter to decide if he qualifies, or not. (cont) - Rick
powerfactorshow 1 month ago
@pries81 When a person puts in the work at the range, and wants to compete with the big dogs, they can decide if they want to do so.- Rick
powerfactorshow 1 month ago
Sandbaggers are going to exist either way. People are always going to cheat this or any system for that matter. That's what shrimp are for. In Florida if you put a shrimp in a certain area of a vehicle... The Florida heat causes a terrible stench. Beware of the shrimp stench aka sandbaggers
OperationHitFactor 1 month ago
@Rick - Match staff should always be taken care of. I would pay extra for matches if I knew it was going to the staff. They are the glue that keeps this thing together.
OperationHitFactor 1 month ago
I think the classes should be broken up into classes like Drag Racing... Pro, Pro-Am, and Amatures
rippspeed1 1 month ago
I vote Open, Limited, and Production overall winners get cash. Then prize table order, 1st GM, 1st, M, 1st A...etc. Those who come in 1st in their division and class hit the prize table, if not already a cash winner. Then all remaining prizes get randomly drawn and given out. That way those who perform at the top of their level get a prize, but then the hobbyist who do it for fun still might win in the random drawing.
OperationHitFactor 1 month ago in playlist Uploaded videos
@OperationHitFactor I also like to distribute prizes to the winners, along with a random draw, when it's been my decision to make. There is some concern about having class winners walk the prize table early, as it can promote sandbagging. That said, I think it's important that prizes do get distributed throughout the order (if everyone is paying for the prizes, everyone should have a shot at the prizes).
Rick
powerfactorshow 1 month ago
@OperationHitFactor I also think it's important to reward match staff, and at our club we've always had a separate event for staff, with its own prize drawing. I attended one Area championship in which all of the prizes went to staff, and that might not be a bad way to do it, either!
Rick
powerfactorshow 1 month ago
There absolutely should be a professional devision. Anybody that has a sponsor or has won a sectional match or higher should not be on the same prize table as everyone else. I shoot mostly local matches. Which I do well and I have fun. However, there is no way I can compete againest someone that shoots that much. I know guys that don't go to major matches anymore because they know there not going to walk away with any prize or be in the top 5.
SuperGlocklover 1 month ago
@SuperGlocklover There are also top shooters who determine, to some extent, which matches they will attend based on the "return on investment" promised by the prize table. If you are running a match that you want to be a "major", with top competitors, you'd better have a prize table that is based on order-of-finish to attract those shooters. Some shooters who know they won't win, value the ability to compete against the best, so they see that as the return on their investment;
Rick
powerfactorshow 1 month ago
@powerfactorshow For the past two years I have shot at a match in lowell, Iowa called the big dawg steel match. There they hand out cash prizes for the top shooters and have a prize table for everyone else. Everyone gets a prize. I think it keeps everyone coming back to the match.
SuperGlocklover 1 month ago
There is an episode of Top Gear, when they reviewed a "hunting shotgun". The price of the guns included a customised Range Rover, with a gun chest in the boot as well as a annual supply of some posh alcohol free of charge.
lekomin 1 month ago
@lekomin
Ya gotta love Top Gear. Yes, I think I remember that episode...the shotgun was "rather expensive" as I recall...perhaps a Holland and Holland or something like that....worth (thats a loose term) something like 3x what the Range Rover was worth?
vapors750 1 month ago
+1 for the official powerfactorshow jersey! I think that people who want to seek sponsorship in exchange for reducing the costs of the sport are a good thing. There's a lot of great vendors out there and I think the ones that support the sport will receive the recognition and business they deserve. We all endorse of products to other shooters while at the range. I wish that businesses would embrace this and even create a way for all of us to get a little break by promoting the products we love.
WithAWalther 1 month ago
I Liked this video because it made me think of something that I hadn't paid attention to before! My next comment is that I think you guys should send me a Power Factor Show T-shirt so that I can Officially become one of the Semi-Pro's haha! Seriously though if you do I will totally wear it to all my matches! I am one of those that wants to have some type of sponsor just to be able to do what I love to do more! So tell Caleb to send me some of his extra ammo if he wants! haha!
MrByronodmon 1 month ago
Good discussions all around. This is a topic I haven't thought that much about. My interest in competition shooting is all about improving my own skills as measured by classifiers and by overall finish within my division. It would be cool to have a low level sponsorship such as free bullets in return for advertising, but at the same time, I would feel worse if I performed poorly while wearing a sponsor's shirt. The shirts I'm most proud of commemorate my labor as a Range Officer for big matches.
L3001USPSA 1 month ago
That would be cool to do a video on how to get a sponsor do you go to them or do they come to you and what benefits to expect or not expect
chbrun34 1 month ago
In Golf, the "match" that pits amateur and pro's would be the US Open. You still have to qualify to get there but kids in college go up against the greats. Also, you can technically spend years on the PGA tour and still be a amateur. Its just a matter of if you have accepted a cash prize or not. Check out how to get in the US open here.
tjones76031 1 month ago
I've been to alot of matches this past year (5 state/section championships) and yes, about 80% of the shooters do wear the cool fancy jersies...I like to wear my plan colored T-Shirt, usually light green and my Wrangler rip-stop cargo pants...I'm an amateur and can't afford the nice cool shirts.
owensthomas 1 month ago
@owensthomas I've gone mostly to Hawaiian shirts over some sort of cargo shorts. That's my uniform.
Rick
powerfactorshow 1 month ago
That way people could still buy and wear jerseys but it would be obvious to others that they are beginners because of the badge or markings. People like jerseys and supporting what they believe in. How many of you own a football jersey?
bower230 1 month ago
@bower230 Interesting question. I've never owned a football jersey. I have logo'd sweatshirts, t-shirts, and ballcaps (demonstrating my support of, at various times, the Colts, Pats, Seahawks, Sonics, and Washington Huskies), but never a jersey. I always thought it was weird to have someone else's name on the back of my shirt.
Rick
powerfactorshow 1 month ago
@powerfactorshow Good point. Funny to see me at a match with a Glock jersey and your name on the back!! Ha ha! But, I do support the idea of having 'shooting' jerseys as they are comfortable, made for the sport, and customizable but I do think there should be a way to quickly tell the difference between a newbie and a pro. P.S. thanks for the videos Rick! Check some of mine out. :)
bower230 1 month ago
Great video once again. I do not own a shooting jersey but have owned several for the paintball sport. Now, that was a good 10 years ago but that was because my step son was in the sport and I wanted to support him. It was a 'cool' thing to have a jersey and I must admit they are Very comfortable. Never intending that we were pro's. Maybe jerseys should have a 'Pro' or class marking and should only be given to them by their sponsors. All others would have a 'public' marking. My thoughts. :)
bower230 1 month ago
i agree with steve
gunwolf72 1 month ago
Do you remember the movie Idiocracy and that one guy Frito with his shirt? That's what I am going to wear at my next major match. ;-P
Posercam 1 month ago