Witnessing to Jews Promo

[B21983]

Part II.

Jesus said the gates of hell shall not overcome his Church (Matt 16:18). But from 300AD- 1517AD, everyone was taught "salvation thru faith and works" - how non-biblical and wrong (from your point of view), 1200 years, millions of Christians were deluded; or if the Catholics are right all along - you are deluded! Am I really to abandon Judaism for Christianity which has thousands of denominations that cannot agree on the fundementals of what gets me saved!?

[jfjweb]

I agree with you. It was because of ignorance and false teachings, not one what was written in the Bible that these things happened. When the Israelites built a golden calf and started worshiping Baal, I could say the same about Judaism. Just because people mis-interpret the Word of God, doesn't change the truth of the word. Sounds like you are just making excuses not to consider who Jesus really is. If He is who he claimed to be, then you owe it to yourself to find out.

[B21983]

"Israelites built a golden calf and started worshiping Baal, I could say the same about Judaism. Just because people mis-interpret the Word of God, doesn't change the truth of the word."

They did not "mis-interpret" they simply did not follow. Catholics use Scripture to support their theology. Again my point exactly - how can I be asked to abandon the faith of my ancestors for another (Christianity) where no one can seem to agree on the fundementals?

[B21983]

Protestants, Catholics, Orthodox, all bicker on the meaning of the Scriptures and what counts for salvation despite having the same Scriptures (Catholics add Maccabees tho in their cannon). My point is only this - JFJ follow the evangelical protestant tradition/theology, which was not developed by Jews, nor did Jews have a say in what would count in the NT Cannon when it was formally compiled in the 4th century.

[jfjweb]

If you look at the differences in theology, those you call Evangelical Protestants, yes makes separation from some Catholic teachings, and other denominations, but none of these take away what Jesus did, namely, that he was fully God and walked in the form of a man on earth, laid down His life for the sins of man, and rose from the dead on the third day and later ascended to Heaven with the promise to return and complete His work. No one will dispute that it is God that saves and restores us.

[B21983]

Part I.

"If you look at the differences in theology, those you call Evangelical Protestants...but none of these take away what Jesus did"

Yes, but they disagree on how to be "saved" thats pretty important. You say we are saved by faith alone, Catholics say "faith and works." That is an important distinction. You are asking me to leave Judaism, but what if we are both wrong and the Catholics are right?

[jfjweb]

This is truly a mute point. You are still making excuses, and I am starting to think you are not sincere in wanting to know whether Jesus is the Jewish Messiah. In the end it is nothing that we can do, it is God who saves. What does God's covenant with the Jews tell them will bring forgiveness of sin?

[B21983]

First, God, and no one else, provides the means of reconciliation and fellowship (2 Chronicles 7:14), precluding any claim for atonement through Jesus' death. In contrast to the Christian concept that man is hopelessly entrapped in sin, the Jewish Scriptures provide that though we may have an inclination towards evil (Genesis 8:21) the means of personal reconciliation with God are always at hand (Psalms 51:16-19, Jeremiah 29:13).

Also see Micha 6:6-8; Isaiah 55:6-9; Psalm 103:11, Lev. 26:41

[jfjweb]

What's the scripture that says the penalty of sin (death) has been revoked? Why do people still die? Is it 'just' in your eyes that simply because we are inclined to evil we still pay the penalty?

[EvertonFan28]

If death is the punishment for sin than why did Adam not dye the day that he ate the apple as G-d said?

[jfjweb]

Read Genesis 2:17 and Genesis 3:4-6. God did not strike them dead instantly, but the fact that Adam and Eve are not alive today confirms the penalty. Why do you think the serpent deceived them by saying they wouldn't die as God had told them? Why do you think God did not kill them instantly?

[EvertonFan28]

Yes because the wording says, "In the day that you eat you shall SURELY die." The fact is, they did not physically die on that day. Therefore, your argument is void.

[jfjweb]

I answered your question, but you didn't answer mine. Why did God say it? Did He say physically die? Why did the serpent use it to make them disobey? What did the serpent know that Adam and Eve didn't understand?

[EvertonFan28]

You did not provide a comprehensive answer. I have replied to your previous post, please address that first.

[jfjweb]

If you are unwilling to discuss the verses in depth, it sounds like you have already made up your mind about it. I can't answer your questions until I know where you are coming from.

[EvertonFan28]

Is this a typical tactic by JfJ? Avoid questions and then accuse others of being unwilling to discuss? That is a shame. I refuted your argument, you avoided it, and now you accuse me of not looking at it in depth. To add to my point that you have failed to address, if Jsus died to free us from sin, and you say death is the penalty for sin, then why do Christians still die

Deuteronomy 30:11 "For this commandment which I command you today is not too mysterious for you, nor is it far off"

[TheEnvelopeMan]

Spriritually dead.

[knightsofstjoan2004]

Attention all Jews and Gentiles! I urge you to watch the three video clips from VenomFangX: Proving Jesus Christ is the Jewish Messiah, Jesus Christ is the Lord God of Israel and Jewish Messiah and Proving the Bible is inspired by God.

[KnockAr0und]

Abraham was not Jewish, and the Jewish people are not "The people of the book".

If you want to know about the Jews - go directly to them!

[jfjweb]

KnockAr0und, Thanks for your feedback.  I would recommend providing evidence for your comments. Making baseless comments is misleading.

[ChoofMonster]

Jews cannot believe in Jesus as the Messiah - that would make them Christians. It's not an amalgamation of faiths, this is outright Baptist theology with some cherry-picked elements of the Torah thrown in for obfuscation. After 3000 years, the Jewish people are still around - tricks like this are designed to extinguish the Jewish faith by stealth.

[jfjweb]

Some would argue that believing in Jesus as the Jewish messiah is the most Jewish thing one can do. What good is it to protect a Jewish faith that is in fallacy? If Jesus is the Messiah, are you willing to accept Him?

[B21983]

No jfjweb, believing in Jesus as the Messiah is not Jewish, its Christianity- particularly when, if we are to accept JFJ's interpretation, we are justified by faith alone- that is clearly a distinct, protestant take on the Scriptures. Jewish it ain't.

[jfjweb]

If you want to address the question I posed to ChoofMonster, you are welcome to. I don't think it is fair to assert that if modern Rabbinic Judaism's interpretation of the Hebrew scriptures is reviewed, that interpretation is not scripturally Jewish. Especially when you are making your own interpretations on Christian understanding of the New Testament (which was written by Jews for the most part too!). Who decides who can read and understand the Bible? Can't we all read and think for ourselves?

[B21983]

"Especially when you are making your own interpretations on Christian understanding of the New Testament...Who decides who can read and understand the Bible? Can't we all read and think for ourselves?"

Of course we can, the problem is, whose interpretation is correct? What guidelines do we have? For example, the word "trinity" is not found in the NT? Yet you believe it (its implied certainly). Arians, Monophosytes, etc. all had a different take on Jesus' nature in the days of the early Church

[jfjweb]

There are always going to be varying opinions and false teachings. Now we know that most if not all the writers of the New Testament were Jewish [Luke being the possible exception], and we also know the basis under which New Testament was "canonized"... based on it's accuracy & consistency with the biblical teachings of the Jewish Torah and prophets. The prevailing opinion in Rabbinic Judaism now is largely based on how to rationalize why there is no present sacrifice for atonement since 70AD.

[B21983]

In the bible atonement prayer was used with full divine sanction, with or without animal offerings (even for non-Jews-- Jonah 3:5-10).

Animal sacrifices are only prescribed for unwitting or unintentional sin (Lev. 4:2, 13, 22, 27; 5:5, 15; Num. 15:30). Intentional sin can be atoned for through repentance, unaccompanied by a blood sacrifice- Psalms 32:5, 51:16-19. Also, I find the whole original sin theology and being damned for it to be against basic notions of Justice.

[jfjweb]

Yom Kippur is not for unintentional sins. You are asking God to be just. He is. Justice doesn't mean everyone gets what they want. Justice means, God determines what is just and anyone who doesn't meet the requirements is justly cast out.

[B21983]

Ok, so God, who is universal unconditional Love, creates sentient and sapient beings, then intentionally lets them become corrupt—and then punishes them from generation to generation with eternal torture for simply just being born in the world and for nothing else?—And then, judges people not on their actions but by their faith or lack thereof—and then by whim save the beings from nothing else but from his very own wrath!?

How does this make any sense (or justice) at all?

[jfjweb]

This is the ultimate conclusion of your statement.

1) Save the trouble of giving your creation choice and create robots without choice to say "I love you". This is very fulfilling for God I am sure.

2) Make no rules, or even better, make rules, but if they are broken, do not enforce the penalty and still hope that your creation loves and depends on you for life. Watch them all go their own way never to see them again. Where is the justice here?

[B21983]

Not quite...Your conclusion (original sin) does not give us the choice- we cannot choose sin, we are already stained with it by being born. Second, We have rules (natural law and Torah), if we break it, God will punish us if He chooses, rather than send an innocent human being to be tortured and killed for something bad that I did rather than what he did.

The Jewish view, as seen by the story of Jonah and the people of Nineveh, truly repent for your sins and God in His Mercy will forgive you.

[jfjweb]

"No one is without sin, not one." Our sins are not counted one by one, you said it yourself we are inclined to sin. It is a disease that everyone is born with. Do you have to teach a child to disobey you? Not even a 1 year old is innocent! Our choice comes in when we can choose to accept God's provision as with Abraham and Issac, where sacrifice in Jesus who laid down his life, having committed no sin. He rose from the dead because the penalty didn't apply. God gives grace to those who trust.

[jfjweb]

What would it take for you to accept that Jesus is the Jewish Messiah and savior of the world?

[B21983]

"What would it take for you to accept that Jesus is the Jewish Messiah and savior of the world?"

1) If the Trinity made any sense- biblical or otherwise

2) If the doctrine of salvation through faith and original sin could be construed as anything but unjust, tyrannical, immoral, and unbiblical.

3) That the Prophet Moses' (peace and blessings upon him) warning the Jews "not to follow gods which ye HAVE NOT KNOWN" (Deut. 11:28) was just sarcasm.

[jfjweb]

Now I know you are not sincere. Thanks for the discussion, but I cannot continue this discussion when I feel like you are not willing to consider Jesus and his claims, quoting irrelevant scriptures and historical events to confuse the issues, and trying to rationalize God through an un-scriptural and impersonal paradigm.

[B21983]

"I feel like you are not willing to consider Jesus and his claims,"

I am certainly willing to consider Jesus and his claims, but I will abandon reason for it. You must, first, show me the rational behind a Trinity (supported by Bible AND Logic), the rational and justice behind original sin, why Christians cannot agree on fundemental principles despite having the same Scripture, etc.

I am willing to consider anything that is right- have you tried to consider why Jesus may be wrong?

[jfjweb]

Yes, if you believe that there is no original sin, as explained and outlined in the Torah, then there is no need for sacrifice. With you the message of Jesus is at in impasse. There is nothing more I can say to you. I test every thought and teaching of Jesus with the Bible including the teaching of the trinity. If you truly wanted to know about it, you wouldn't so easily dismiss it.

[B21983]

"Yes, if you believe that there is no original sin, as explained and outlined in the Torah, then there is no need for sacrifice."

Please explain. What does original sin have to do with sacrifice? And how do you defend original sin (I see it as a horrid and immoral proposition which no loving God could support-but prove me wrong)

[B21983]

So aussieguy, you would have no place to go if u lived in say 1250, you would be forced into church and taught unbiblical things, the bible would've been read to u in latin which you could not understnd. So Christ allowed generations of Christians to be let astray for a mellenia? To me that seems to be a violation of his promise.

[theguyfromaustralia]

We are not saved by denomination. There's a long history there. There ARE churches that go straight from the bible, yes they are hard to find. If I'm not in that church am I damned? Of course not! Justification by faith alone and the works of Christ and his atonement alone for salvation what saves us, not of works. Would you like to take this conversation in private message? Cheers mate :)

[B21983]

"Justification by faith alone and the works of Christ and his atonement alone for salvation what saves us, not of works" Exactly, but how could the peasant in France, whose only culture and church was catholic-he was never told of salvation thru faith alone, he was told the opposite! 1200yrs all Christians were taught this false doctrine, they had NO OTHER OPTIONS! It seems like Christ abandoned his ecclisia for a while.

[B21983]

I do not say this "proves" jesus is not the messiah, but what i do say is that one can't claim it is so obvious that Jesus is the messiah the OT talked about, cuz if so, why did the apostles react the way they did?

[amazingeddie]

I think Jews ought to start hanging out at Christian Bible meetings and trying to convince Christains to join Amway or buy premium value swamp land in Florida, and not give in until they see the way and the truth.

[jfjweb]

You have it exactly right. Jews for Jesus are just Christians -- who are of Jewish birth. We're 100% Jewish and 100% Christian.

[looker2Utube]

100% Jewish christian = 100% heretical Jew that needs t'shuvah(repentance). Don't let christians fool you. There is ONE Torah and ONE G-D.

messiahtruth. com/response. html

[jfjweb]

looker, your post is insulting to ALL Christians, whether of Jewish descent or not. Again, you fail to post a single logical or intellegent reason why Jesus is not the Messiah. Don't post a URL ... explain what YOU believe, not what someone has put on a website. Maybe the problem is that you have never investigated for yourself whether Jesus is the Messiah, and relied on someone else to do your thinking.

[macman13]

So, jews for jesus are just christians?

[looker2Utube]

Yes, but try to veil their departure from Judaism,(if they were Jews to begin with.),with Jewish sounding terms. Judaism and christianity are different religions. Judaism is the covenant given to the Jewish people at mount Sinai;it is what makes a Jew Jewish. When they reject this covenant for a false covenant, they reject the covenant that G-d gave them at mount Sinai. They are then heretical Jews that need to return to the Torah of their forefathers. messiahtruth. com/response. html

[macman13]

I don't really care, it's all bunk if you ask me, but they shouldn't lie about their beliefs.

[jfjweb]

macman, it would be a lie if we said that we are Jewish and believe in Jesus and really didn't. Since that is not the case, there's no lie ... just disagreement over whether Jesus is the Messiah.

[macman13]

How can you be a jew and believe that jesus was the messiah, that's what a christian is.

Once again, its all crap.

[B21983]

jfjweb: While if a "Jew for Jesus" would be a Jew if his mother was one, his belief disconnects him from the Jewish people. Its not so much that you believe Jesus is the Messiah and God BUT ALSO, your theology is clearly protestant evangelical. Do you accept apostolic succession (like catholics)? No. Do you believe in salvation by faith alone (in contrast to both catholicism and judaism's emphasis on works/mitzvot)? If so, what you are, theologically speaking, is a Baptist more than a Jew.

[jfjweb]

I will address your question if you will address mine. Who do you think Jesus is?

[B21983]

We're not being converted, so shove it...We believe in ONE GOD, NOT THREE!

[theguyfromaustralia]

Bereshit (Genesis) 1:26 And G-d said: 'Let US make man in OUR image, after OUR likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth'.... who is this "US" ?

[B21983]

aussie: Let us assume Gen 1:26 does refer to a plurality within God, why assume that pluarality is a trinity? Why not four? Why not five? Even the ancient Egyptians and current Hindus believe their hundreds or thousands of gods is the manifestation of one God. If God can be one and three, He can be one and a million. The whole uniqueness of monotheism and its biblical message becomes corrupted with Trinitarianism.

[theguyfromaustralia]

Read Genesis 19:24 (The Tanakh) then flip to Amos 4:10-11. (I would have posted scriptures but it was too long)

[B21983]

I read Gen 19 and Amos 4, not quite sure what point it proves. Also to point out, Deuteronomy 29:26, talks about the punishmnt for the Jews follwing "Gods they KNEW not" another transltion says "ALIEN to them." I find the term knew and/or alien to be revealing. Did the Jews of Moses' time KNOW JESUS as God? Clearly not. Therefore, in not follwing Jesus, we are merely heeding the words and caveat of God's prophet, Moses.

[theguyfromaustralia]

Tell me, how is a Jew supposed to keep to the law and have a substitute sacrifice without a temple?.. you're still under the curse of the law. You break one, you're guilty of breaking the whole law and in high risk of sheol

[B21983]

Without the Temple, our substitute for sacrifices are our prayers. Two, from my memory, sacrifices were made of animals, not humans. Three, the law is not a "curse." Do you know what is a curse? Original Sin, that YOUR God, would allow people to be BORN WITH SIN, rather than choose to sin, and if they don't believe in Jesus, regardless of how rightous they were, they will burn in hell.

[theguyfromaustralia]

Can you keep the whole law?

[theguyfromaustralia]

And if you're going to use derogative language such as "shove it" then I'm not going to waste my time with you. Prayer being a substitute is NOT biblical. The messiah was supposed to come before destruction of 2nd temple. He came, his name is Yahushua. I'm sorry you're too blind to see.

[B21983]

I do apologize for saying "shove it" that was wrong and innapropriate. That being said, a human being being a sacrifice is NOT biblical either. Also, you have not responded to my previous comments. Lastly, when Mary Magdelene reported to the apostles that Jesus had been risen, they did not believe her! WHY? Because the Jewish people (even the apostles) did not view what jesus did as being a part of messianic prophecy.

[theguyfromaustralia]

you're forgiven. As for them not believing her is a different story. Then they saw the risen Lord. Notice how bold the apostles became after they saw him? They were all brutally martyred....Why?

[B21983]

"As for them not believing her is a different story. Then they saw the risen Lord. Notice how bold the apostles became after they saw him?" True enough, however, the fact that they abandoned him at the cross, and originally didn't believe Mary, means that what Jesus did was not what Jews had expected from a messiah.

[theguyfromaustralia]

They abandoned him because they feared for their lives! Jesus still chose them and some still doubted. Look at Thomas!! Of course they were scared! I don't think you understand the influence the Pharisees had back then. SOME didn't believe fully until they saw him risen. OTHERS believed, Peter admits it BEFORE he was crucified.

[B21983]

Exactly, they feared for their lives. Instead of viewing the crucification as a fulfillment of messianic prophecy, they fled from him! Thomas didn't believe Jesus had been risen until he touched Christ's wounds. Christians and JFJ would like us Jews to believe that the Tanakh is CLEAR that Jesus is the Messiah; but if that were the case, the apostles would not have viewed Christ's crucifiction as a cause for despair.

[theguyfromaustralia]

"the apostles would not have viewed Christ's crucifiction as a cause for despair." Not entirely true. but good point. Again, read the Gospels and take note who recognizes Jesus as Messiah before the crucifixion.

[B21983]

"read the Gospels and take note who recognizes Jesus as Messiah before the crucifixion" Yes BEFORE the crucifixion. Peter identified him as "the messiah, the son of the livng god" as did John the Baptist, BUT when Christ died, even PETER left him, only John and the two Mary's stood by him. They also doubted reports of his resurrection.

[B21983]

doesnt it bother Xtians to be divided by THOUSANDS of denominations? JFJ are theologically protestant. Matt 16:18 Christ says that his church, built on Peter will not be overcome by hell, but from 300-1517, there was no "bible based church", ther was no "salvation by faith" BECAUSE the Catholic Chrch was the ONLY church in town. So perhaps 4 1200 yrs apostasy and the gates of hell DID overcome the church. Y should Jews join a movement that cant find agreement amongst themselves?

[theguyfromaustralia]

The "church" isn't referring to a particular denomination. The church is a body of people, ecclesia, a whole. And you're very right about the catholic church. Gates of hell haven't overcome the church, look at the rise of Christianity now a days.

[B21983]

Well on the "church" thing, you may be perfectly right, my point was that Jesus made this promise to peter (Matt 16:18) YET from 300AD-1517, there was no one "bible based church" people were taught "Salvation thru faith AND works" they were told to worship Mary and the Saints. This theology was the ONLY theology in town.

[B21983]

"Let US make man in OUR image, after OUR likeness"

Aussie, as stated before, even if this means God is plural, how do u assume that plurality is 3 not 5? Secondly, in semetic languages, God often uses the royal "We" it does not mean He is plural. The Qur'an, written in Arabic (close to Hebrw), God says "We" and "Us" yet there is whole chapter condemning the trinity. For God (or royalty) to use the plural, is common in semetic tongues.

[theguyfromaustralia]

it's hard to answer all your questions within 500 characters. fair go. anyway. Im done talking with you. Thanks for the chat. I think you need to look at this harder. Really look harder.. ok?

[looker2Utube]

messiahtruth. com/response. html

[theguyfromaustralia]

messiahrevealed. org

[looker2Utube]

This christian propaganda is disgusting and offensive to Jews practicing their traditional religion of Judaism. Judaism has always rejected the christian messiah because he did not fulfill the basic things that the true Biblical Moshiach will do. The attempt of this cult to proseletize Jews to christianity is an insult to Jewish people that live Torah Judaism everywhere. DISGUSTING FILTH.

[jfjweb]

Looker, it's a shame that instead of posting any intelligent or logical reason why you believe Jesus is not the Messiah of Israel, you resort to rabid insults.

[looker2Utube]

If you had looked one entry down, you would have seen the url that I posted fully explaining the reason that Judaism rejects christianity and always will. This is a comment board, not a debate forum. messiahtruth. com/response. html