Rev. John Rankin: "The Pain That Dares Not Speak Its Name"

[teinetwork]

Nicksum -- a postscript. You are free to advance your understanding of "committed same-sex relations," and in fact, you have the wind of great political energy in your sails. Why do you need to justify it by appealing to God or the Bible? The Bible says no to homosexual acts as foreign and harmful to the image of God. If you disagree, why not choose a different religion or scripture? Far deeper, the testimony of my lesbian classmates at Harvard is true, and such pain can only be healed in Jesus.

[teinetwork]

Nicksum -- thank you. If in your view the Bible is ignorant in its inability to "adapt itself to many modern contexts," then how can large Truth be fully true? You say I pick and choose according to my "favorite social taboo." Have you read my web articles as recommended? Can you justify this diagnosis from anything I have said or written? Show me where I support religious genocide, and how I commit "narrow abuse of scripture," likewise answering my second question concerning biblical reality.

[teinetwork]

Nicksum -- thank you again. I know Hebrew, Greek, biblical exegesis, historical and theological context, and the issues you have raised. I have been questioned accordingly in forums at Yale, Smith, Harvard, Brown, Princeton, Penn, UNH, URI, NYU, BU, Wesleyan and elsewhere. Your ex post facto question of what the Bible "doesn't know" is interesting. Two questions: 1) Is the Bible ignorant of some elements of human nature? 2) What biblical reality supports "committed same-sex relationships?"

[nicksum29]

@teinetwork The Bible is never ignorant in the sense of not knowing Truth. It is ignorant in the sense of being unable to independently adapt itself to many modern contexts (or "truth" with a small "t").  It is human beings that must interpret texts, guided by the Holy Spirit. To pick and choose according to your favourite social taboo, is not guided interpretation, but cultural predilection. All of the worst religious genocides have resulted from this kind of narrow abuse of scripture.

[nicksum29]

@teinetwork There are many good things unsupported by Biblical scripture. It is physically impossible for the entire history and future of human existence to be summed up in a single book, just as it is unreasonable to even consider believing that the correlation of documents we have come to know as the Bible contains the sum of human nature. Scripture is a springboard into the Divine. It is not the Divine itself, nor can it contain either the sum of man, and certainly not the sum of God.

[nicksum29]

Saying the Bible is the Word of God is true, but you need not leave your brain behind. Homosexual love relationships were not common knowledge: the public versions of homosexuality were non-legal, usually perverted, connected with prostitution and temple worship, and exploitation. I would be the first to condemn them. The biblical authors had no knowledge of stable, committed same-sex relationships. You need to read some of the Bible within its historical and cultural. setting.

[blamtasticful]

@nicksum29 I will agree to disagree on this point because I think that God would specify such a hairsplitting difference. If the Bible says homosexuality is wrong I don't see how it would be now no longer long because it's in marriage. Side note: I'm going to leave it here because I have finals to work on so I won't be responding to anything further. I do hope you don't think that I think that you're any less of a person because of your lifestyle. God Loves us all and I am glad your a Christian.

[teinetwork]

Nicksum -- thank you. I know many homosexual persons. My example of Arline Isaacson is representative. At teinet.net, click on "The Ministers Affirmation on Marriage." I first say yes to the marriage of one man and one woman as the positive. Also, click on the icon "Marriage or Pansexuality." Look at the articles, especially on male and female as the image of God, and the forum at Yale Divinity School. Please show me the blasphemy you charge me with, according to the Bible.

[teinetwork]

Matt -- thank you, and yes, "soul pain" is very deep.

Nicksum -- thank you. Blamtasticful makes good observations. I have addressed forums at B.U. and Harvard with Arline Isaacson, the lead lesbian political activist in Massachusetts. She gave me a hug after a third forum, even though we disagree. She knows the respect by which I treat her and all people equally. Is it possible for me to say no to homosexuality without being called a bigot?" You say, "When Christ speaks." Please elaborate.

[nicksum29]

@teinetwork I am sorry, but to say "no" to homosexuality is not saying much at all. It's fine that you don't approve, but it is not fine to use Christ as a reason for doing so. I have always found this to be not a little blasphemous. Get to know gay and lesbian families - and their children. You will find that they are just as wonderful (and just as damaged) as everyone else. It is cruel to want to hurt them more than most by saying "no" to the fact that they are a fact.

[nicksum29]

Sir, your ethics seem to me to be unethical. Neither I nor one of my gay or lesbian friends have been abused by anyone. I am a servant of the gospel, too; and to me it seems that you are just beating us with mittens on your hands and padding on your hobnails. The result is ultimately the same: a bleeding, gay-bashed homosexual. It just takes longer your way. It's as if you jab your fingers in your ears when Christ speaks, and remove them only at the bits you like. Prayers coming your way.

[blamtasticful]

@nicksum29 I understand your position and do not claim that all homosexuals have been sexually abused, but neither did the video. Rev. Rankin said that it was anecdotal evidence. It is true, however, that many homosexuals have a history of sexual abuse. The question you should ask yourself is: do you want people to form a homosexual identity based on abuse? If it has effected the sexual identity of some , then shouldn't that be addressed?

[nicksum29]

@blamtasticful Friend - mine is not a "position", but a statistic. It shocks me that an academic - no matter how inept - could site anecdotal evidence as evidence at all. You might as well say that heterosexuals have a history of sexual abuse as proof of heterosexuality. While I agree that sexual abuse damages an individual, I disagree (and the evidence is with me on this) that it "causes" loving relationships, which is what most gay people ultimately enjoy. The idea is obscene.

[blamtasticful]

@nicksum29 You are making a moral judgement when you state that the idea is obscene. As for the facts, your comparison of heterosexuality being just as plausible of a result from sexual abuse just doesn't follow. Homosexuality is much less common than heterosexuality, and statistically it is much more likely that a homosexual will have a history of sexual abuse. These are statistics. You don't think that some individuals may turn to homosexuality because of abuse? No one is saying all.

[nicksum29]

@blamtasticful Moral judgements are quite acceptable if you are a moral person. Something that is less common does not mean that it is unsound - just uncommon. Anecdotal evidence doth not a statistic make. You admitted that there are no statistics to support this claim. So why continue asserting it? Therefore your statement "these are statistics" is simply null. No person "turns" homosexual from sexual abuse. They are not homosexual, but a deviancy within homosexuality.

[blamtasticful]

@nicksum29 What are your "morals" based on. I said Rev. Rankin was using anecdotal evidence; I DID NOT say there was no evidence to support this. I am interested in hearing where you got your statistics as well as I have never heard them. There hasn't YET been shown a direct link to homosexuality and sexual abuse, but this is because no one is doing studies. There is, however, a strong correlation. You have also missed the point that more homosexuals have a history of abuse than heterosexuals.

[nicksum29]

@blamtasticful Placing my morals within inverted commas shows me that you doubt that I have any: I am a gay Christian conservative. Of course homosexuals are abused... for being homosexual. I am also disturbed  that you seem to want to associate love relationships with abuse. Even if homosexuality is caused by abuse, what does this have to do with the nurturing, loving relationships gay and lesbian people find themselves in? Your agenda seems nefarious. Refer to my "gay-bashing" text.

[blamtasticful]

@nicksum29 I don't appreciate the ad hominid attacks as I haven't even said anything negative about homosexuals. The statement "homosexuals are abused because they are homosexuals" isn't true because we are talking about child abuse. At that stage most kids haven't even formed a sexual identity. The morals I'm referring to is the fact that the Bible says homosexuality is wrong so I'm questioning your basis. This is simply a different opinion than yours not "gay-bashing."

[nicksum29]

@blamtasticful I think you mean "ad hominem". I did not attack our species. I am sorry you think I attacked you - I meant to attack your ideas. Your passive aggressive violence towards lesbians and gays is really no worse than physical abuse - the ultimate result is the same. Also, the Bible does not condemn anything. People who wrote the Bible do. The Bible is not a nebulous entity with a faceless existence. It was written by real people. Kindly acknowledge them. (continued)

[blamtasticful]

@nicksum29 I apologize for the humorous typo lol. All I'm saying is that extreme emotional situations can make a radical change in a person. I'm sure you would agree that some homosexuals stay in heterosexual relationships because of upbringing that is often harsh. All I'm saying is that I think some heterosexuals engage in homosexual relationships that only further hurt there broken state. I'm certainly not saying that sexual abuse is the reason for homosexuality. Such cases should be treated.

[nicksum29]

@blamtasticful Indeed, for a heterosexual to become involved in a homosexual relationship is extremely unfair to a homosexual partner - I would, depending on the situation, call such a situation immoral. I do not live a "lifestyle", but a life. A happy one. Love is the basis of all love relationships. The sexuality of two adults is immaterial.

Good luck with your exams, and have a Wonderful Christmas. The Lord comes in four days!

[MattMirabile]

John, a salient and well said piece. You have hit the nail on the head. Unfortunately this sort of pain does not experience exposure well. It is what I call "soul pain" and needs tender and patient healing by the grace of God.