@TheChongles Oh, and you do have more experience than just playing with tree branches i hope? Because it would be very embarassing if you'd criticised those guys who have serious training while you've never went to a real Kenjutsu/HEMA school...
Where's the jiujutsu? Both samurai and Englishmen would eventually commit, so I expected this to end with at least a disarm, if not a full throw or joint lock.
@volarion Hello my friend! I've got a very good book, ''Schwertkampf Band 2'' from Herbert Schmidt about the onehanded sword and Buckler. You might find it on ww w.wieland-verlag.co m (remove spaces). Alas it is written in German, i'm not sure if it's available in english.
the differences between these two martial arts are many. cannot say one is better. as far as the weapon; katanas are fragile, contacts like that are likely to chip the blade. a samurai would minimize the amount of contact, western swords were intended to take abuse like this. in this match the bokken wielder is not using this mindset. japanese method would limit a fight to a few decisive cuts using guile and a calm analysis of the opponent. western mindset would use clever parrying and riposte.
Agree. Katana is relatively fragile, and only the back of the blade, but not the edge, is used to parry even when the opponent is using katana.
If katana crash with western long sword hardly, I afraid that the blade of katana would break into pieces.
To confront long sword user, katana user should avoid contact. Instead, he should evade the attack. When the opponent is restoring his stance,give a fatal blow by a quick slash, so to make use of its sharpness.
@EdgeWarmantic An edge of the thin, sharp longsword would chip just the same than a Katana, that's why medieval fencing uses many deflections e.g. with the cutting edge against the other sword's flat.
Additionally to what Volarion said, there is a principle in medieval fencing known as ''Hengen''. It says, if the strike is going to miss, one should stop the tip of the blade so that he could instantly make a stabbing to the face, throat or torso.
Oh...my definition on Long sword in base on what is used in the video. This type of Longsword, due to the poor technology of its era, it had to be heavy and thick so to avoid breaking. What you say issomething in a more advanced age, when the technology is good enough to support thin blade.
In earlier age, longsword relied more on its weight and strength.
@EdgeWarmantic Yes, i'm speaking of the longswords represented by the waster in this vid :-)
What poor technology are you referring to? In the late middleages the steel was already good enough to not require folding or pattern welding anymore, and in the 15-16th century tempering was already known, allowing flexible, thin blades...
But even before, swords were neither heavy nor did they rely on strength only.
Brother, as I have found, the weight of the blade is between 1.2-2.4 kg, and its reliance on weight is compared with Katana(weight < 1kg).
About the thickness....alright, in 15th Century, the black smithing technology is good enough for a blade of 3-4 mm thickness. You are right. What I have said is far earlier, when the long sword is first developed, about 13th century something.....
@EdgeWarmantic 2,4kg? That's some heavy blade, probably ceremonial swords. Here:
thearma.or g/essays/weights.ht m
it says: ''Even the big hand-and-a-half 'war' swords rarely weigh more than 4.5 lbs (2kg).'' 2,4kg would be probable for a Greatsword/Bidenhänder, though, but not a longsword.
Anyway, it's true that generally longswords are a little heavier than Katanas (do you think that 0,2kg is an issue for a trained warrior?), but this comes with a huge reach giving an advantage to the (...)
@EdgeWarmantic (...) wielder, as you surely know that in combat every cm counts. Here you have some O-Dachis (or Nodachis? I can never tell!). On the second page you'lll find one that has the same length than a short longsword but has a huge weight: (114cm/45inches blade = 3,25kg/7,16lbs), showing that the jap. blade construction results in very heavy swords. Thus i think in the contrary that the european swords were very light for their lenght, although a little heavier than the shorter Katana.
@EdgeWarmantic Furthermore, remember that as a cutting sword the Katana has much of its weight in the blade towards the tip. This is some advantage for great cutting power and helps use the weight of the blade to a maximum for striking power. Most longswords however are more thrusting oriented and thus need precise and effortless tip-control. Many swords have a center of gravity less than 10cm from the guard, this isn't good for relying on the weight.
@EdgeWarmantic One last thing (sorry for the spamming): The longswords became popular in the mid-14th century, around 1350, when plate armour allowed more and more to fight without shields. In those times it is true that tempering wasn't used that much, because it was unpredictable with the still quite unhomogenous steel. But with slack-quenching or differential hardening they ensured a blade would rather bend than snap (like the jap. did). So to make thick blades wasn't necessarily even then.
@EdgeWarmantic Look up ww w.albion-swords.co m/swords/johnsson/sword-museum-cluny.ht m (remove space). While special in its light weight, it still shows (because it is a precise reproduction of the original sword) that light, thin swords weren't impossible to make in the 15th century. Remember that you've got maces, battleaxes and pollaxes if you need crushing power! ;-)
This isn't really a fair comparison of 'Bokken' vs. 'Longsword'... all I see here is 'kungfu master' vs. 'father with 3 kids who like to play basketball on weekends'.
@Neilnfroname So since you've got much swordfighting experience, how about an interesting discussion? for example i agree that chosing the guard ''Ochs'' against ''Waki-no-Kamae'' at 0:34 is probably not the best thing to do. How would you have acted in this particular case? Personally i think ''Pflug'' would have done great against the ''Unterhau''-danger of Waki while giving much thrusting possibilities... But left or right ''Pflug'', what do you think?
@Neilnfroname I'm not sure, from what I could see the kill counts were fairly even. Take 1:49, quick easy kill from the longsword's greater reach.
Personally, I think this should have been done with helmets. Sparring without them limits possibilities greatly, especially with the kind of swift kills you can get with a longsword's tip at range.
@TehLeek First, ''Bastard sword'' is not a very precise definition of a sword, it's more of its use (that it can be used onehanded) than of a particular sword design itself. So you might have very long bastard swords. Second, the hstorical Katanas are quite short to match the height of the japanese of the time which weren't that big. Third, although possible i think, i've never seen a longsword shorter than 1meter. Thus, Longswords are in general clearly NOT shorter than Katanas!
@TehLeek I'm very sorry then, there are soo much people around here who believe the strangest things like ''Samurai armour made out of bamboo or lacquered paper'' (not kidding) that it's difficult to tell when someone is ironical X-D
@Gfors85 unfortunately i dont think that would help as most longsword techniques are meant to kill as quick as possible but with kendo tje sport has distorted the art into something tjat will get you killed
how about some helmets, do-plate and gloves so you can actually hit eachother? the longsworder should realize that he only has his reach as advantage, if the samurai gets close to him he is dead.
@Gfors85 When you're closer the longsword still doesn't has the disadvantages of a spear, who is difficult to use in that case. The medieval fencer can use shorter strikes e.g. by using the thumb grip, and don't forget that once close enough he can use all the techniques unknown by the Kenjutsukas; halfswording, binden, winden, hendtrucken aso. For example in hendtrucken you push your cutting edge against the raised or lowered forearms, you press the opponent backwards to gain an opportunity.
shows quite well how eager the longswordwielder are to fight close; you can turn around the opponents blade while binding it to prevent counterattack, you deflect and hit at the same time (in which case you're already very close), you grasp the opponents hands to punch him with the pommel into the face... In the contrary, i think the longsword, due to its hiltbalance, second cutting edge and pommel is even more lethal in close range than at distance ;-)
@Railriderchris bad example, those swords are too light. And I do believe that you have seen very little kendo, right? its so fast you cant see shit. and the movement is from another world compare to those primitive longsworders you just showed me. the same time it takes for the longsworder to raise his blade again after a missed attack, the samurai has already made 3 attacks, kote, men, do. the knight is dead and dicapitated.
@Gfors85 First, it seems you've got no knowledge about european swords and haven't seen the vids to the end; Those ''Feder'' are heavier than real longswords who range around 1-1,5kg, not much more than Katanas. Second you're unlucky to discuss with someone who's done 4 years of Kendo and Iaido, a little Kenjutsu before starting with medieval fencing. The indeed fast strikes in Kendo with the 400g Shinais have nothing in common with handling a real Nihonto and are much more ''primitive'' (...)
@Gfors85 (...) than the real techniques with whatever real sword. Furthermore you ignore the prinzip in medieval fencing called ''Hengen'' which consists of NOT striking down to the ground, but stopping the tip of your sword so that it could threaten the enemy, often the face.Thus your analysis of the time needed to raise a longsword is futile more than only wrong! Say, you might know Kendo, but have you any knowledge of Kenjutsu and medieval fencing? Or are you just guessing from common myths?
@Railriderchris So your also a Kendoka :) guess thats called luck to spare me lots of time to explain Kendo then. No Im not guessing from common myths, I dont have too deep knowledge about medieval swords technique but I guess history speaks for itself. it IS a reason to why eastern asia are using those kinds of swords. if they got their asses kicked you might think that they would change, right?
@Gfors85 Well i was, a long time ago... I liked it very much, and till recently it was the only way of fighting with the Katana; In Iai you're doing only Katas. But with modern technology we have foam swords of high density with added weight to be like the real ones, so we can fight on a much more realistic way in medieval fencing :-)
Well, history says that Japan was isolated through most of its history, and most times they met other cultures (mongols, korean, portugiese) they adapted (...)
@Gfors85 (...) the warfare... So while Japan has developped it's own warrior culture i doubt you could say it is a proof of a kind of superiority. In fact Japan never was that succesful outside of their countries until they adopted western warfare. And during the long peace under the Tokugawa Shogun, in Europe there was war... war, and war again! Do you really think Europe was less developed speaking of warfare than an isolated island that was still in the middleages 150 years ago? ;-P
@Gfors85 I like the japanese history and especally their swords very much! They are beautiful and the art of wielding them is very intriguing! But i had to discover that the europeans had a tradition of swordfighting just as elaborate! It's a pity the modern man is believing all those ridiculous myths of heavy bashing swords and knights who couldn't stand up once they've fallen o the ground! I hate the moviemakers for this!
You look like an ok guy, do some research, you'll be amazed ;-)
@Railriderchris no I meant the eastern Asia, you know, china, mongolia and so on, they had similar weapons probably cus of what you just said. Hm, But Japan was at war in itself all the time between various clans, that has to count? if experience and technology is what to count, then the fact that we had firearms before Japan is obvious, so maybe, its unfair to compare the latest sword culture with an expired sword culture from us? :)
@Railriderchris oh, I did some research and I could not find any of those real monster swords that I always wanted to have myself. Im Swede and in our royal chamber of armor there are some real huge swords and they cant all be for show. its a museum of what the royal guard was equiped with during history. anyways back to subject...
I don't know what kind of swords you are refering to. But I think you mean the large two handed swords. And indeed they wheren'tfor show but they are used in a slightly different way than longswords. If you have such a large sword it's even more important to not cut to the ground an stop because, as you said, if you do you will be dead. with those swords you either have to continue the momentum and swing in circular motions or not strike down to the ground at all.
@Railriderchris Since you have been a Kendoka (grade? Im a 2:d Kyu myself 2 years exp) you know that as little sword movement as possible is the way of Kendo. you center yourself so you have equally far to all targets. what I saw in your vids is too much range, moving, swinging and so on. Samurais does not need to do that. maybe you should check up some great Kendo practise videos? :) Dont give a crap about Aido, thats not about battle... cheers!
@Gfors85 Once more: Kendo can learn you many things but it is NOT real swordfighting! Try to do a men kaeshi men with a 1kg Katana, you might break your wrists lol! The real use of a Katana is not to make ''pokes'' like Kendo but to cut so heavily that your opponent will be incapacitated! If you hit with a Kendo strike using a Katana, your enemy will be hurt, and MIGHT die of blood loss, however what is sure is HE will kill you! Try tameshigiri like you hit in Kendo, that'll be fun! X-D
@Railriderchris I get your point but still poking (tsuki or whatevers most effective at that time) is deadly since katana has a sharp tip. 1kg is lighter than 1,5 kg, and I would say that Kendo is the closest thing to Katana swordfighting you will ever come.ofcourse its way more agile and fast than it should be, but its a non-lethal sport so...Hmm, you also seem to forget the body-combat samurais knew., you think they only used their sword? no kicks,tricks, elbows nonothing? :)
"how can the knight be fast if he wears heavy armor?" I can ask the same question about the samurai with just as heavy armor. The answer is ofc that both the samurai and the knight used armor that was easy to move in.
And you seems to forget the body-combat knights knew. There isn't much differense between japanese body-combat than for example kampfringen.
@gurkfisk89 I think the samurai armor is way lighter, I did not forget the knightly Bodycombat , you have already given me the picture, I just pointed out that samurais fight also with body, legs and arms... What I think really is wrong here is that Samurais were until 1900 and knights lasted to 1600. is it strange that Samurai bushido is better?
@Gfors85 ... Japan closed their boarders for 400 years and no development happened in this time. As soon as they had to open up in the 1860s, the japanese knights diappeared. Better would be, if you would know the basics of history to be able to understand what you are talking about, Sir.
Sorry if I'm sounding like an asshole but it doesn't matter what you think about the weights. If you look up the weights of antique armor of both warriors in museums you will see that the weights is very similar with a wide range. There is for example a full plate armor in the wallace collection that is under 20 kg. The avarage for a 1400s armor is however more like 26 kg.
You can compare this with ō-yoroi that is about 30 kg on avarage or the Yukinoshita-do of about 20-25 kg. You see, there is not that much difference. For the 1900 vs 1600 thing, see Zukurus comment. However, I would say that they did still develop during the time of isolation but not as fast. And what do you really mean when you say that samurai bushido is better? What is better with it? How can you even measure that?
@Gfors85 Sorry, i was out house... I think Gurkfish and Zukuru made the point. Historical data show us that there aren't as many differences between Europe and Japan as you think there would be; The armours had around the same weight, so do the swords, both knew grappling, wrestling techniques... That the Samurai lasted until the 1850ies is more a proof of a lack of developpement, not of a sort of superiority... As for the pokes in Kendo: Yes a thrust is deadly, that is not what i meant (...)
@Gfors85 (...) with ''pokes''. But when you do a slash with a Katana you don't want to do just a light wound! Understand: With the weight and power of a Katana, even with a Kendo ''poke'' you'll do a deep gash e.g. in an arm. But would it incapacitate the enemy? If no, you're absolutely dead. No big deal in Kendo where the goal is NOT to hurt your opponent, but once again you should study what real swordfighting requires, not sport only... See you, i go to bed ;-)
@Gfors85 Btw, i forgot one point: '' if you would grasp a samurais sword you would not have any fingers left or hand''. Nope, Katanas are not lightsabers ;-P To cut, even a very sharp blade needs A) cinetic energy B) a cutting motion lengthways of the cutting edge C) both. Ever tried to cut a tomato just by pushing? You'll crush it without cutting! That's why there are many techniques with which you can grab the edge, especially with battle gauntlets:
@Railriderchris man, so you forget again that they have powerful wrists? anyways, I think this discussion has been somewhat enlightening for me but I guess the best way to settle this is to let the 10 best longsworders go against the 10 best kendokas with proper armor to be able to do hits that would count as wounds in real life :) thank you all for your time guys and have a nice weekend.
@Gfors85 Yes and no, to handle a sword your wrists should be smooth (hope one could say that in english) more than powerful but rigid. I understand that because you make Kendo you see advantages in its fast, small strikes, but again: Real swordtechniques enable you to do big movements while keeping yourself safe (center). I'm glad you could have some benefit of our discussion. Remeber, i'm not saying There's a good or wrong way of swordfighting. With more experience you'll understand :-)
@Gfors85 By the way: You do the Kendo no Katas of course? Well, the first ones are exagerated big movements to learn the basics, but it is much closer to the real use of a Nihonto than the usual Kendo strikes. No i haven't any grade, i used to hate the people wanting to have a grade to be proud (not referring to you), i preferred to beat them while being Mudan ;-)
As for the big swings in european warfare: It's difficult to explain but they make sense once you've understood how to use them...
@Gfors85 To keep the center is important in Kendo, especially to counter the fast attacks. But in medieval fencing it's dangerous because i might seek the bind with your sword so you might not defend yourself while i wind my sword around and stab you... Or grasp your sword with my gauntlet... Or make a Shielhau to take your blade away and hit you at the same time... And anyway, in a real fight with a real sword, Chudan no Kamae is way to slow to attack since you have to ''arm'' first...
@Railriderchris hmmm, its like you are telling me things then forget about that yourself. how can the knight be fast if he wears heavy armor? you dont think samurais would have very strong wrists after practising with a real katana? if you would grasp a samurais sword you would not have any fingers left or hand. yes, they did cut through steel helmets so gauntlets should not be a problem. Yeah I have done lots of Katas but its boring, ancient stuff for show, I prefer battles.
The current record of kabutowari is a 13-centimeter gash. And that was to a stationary helm at waist height. So not really a clean cut through.
For the 1 kg is lighter than 1,5 kg. Sure, but are you talking about a 1 kg longsword or a 1 kg katana and a 1,5 kg katana or a 1,5 kg longsword? Both the longsword and the katana can have both those weightes. The katana often are the lighter but that's not always true.
@Hatchetforce you said you trained, you thereby should have learned a style.then you said longsword fighting doesnt exist meaning there wouldnt be any styles. its kind of implied with everything youve said
@Hatchetforce yes there are many types of longsword but the actual weapon styles used to fight with them where drawn and written down by many fencing masters, we dont have an unbroken line of teachers but we have to next best thing. and these masyers never met the japanese, frankly im insulted you would say their techniques came from the japanese at all since they are in fact much older
@volarion Haha, try to do a ''Zwerchhau'' or a ''Krumphau'' with a Katana! X-D Honestly, the more i train the techniques, the more i feel that the medieval fencing is even more sophisticated than Kenjutsu! This is my personal opinion and i'm not talking of superiority i.e. that it is ''better''. But the way you can use your short edge, the pommel, grappling, wrestling, halfswording, all this is not to be found to the same extend with the japanese sword...
@Railriderchris Part of that is because a lot of Eastern techniques have for the last 100 years become more art and sport and less wartime combat. You don't go out and fight to the death. Many western styles died and have only recently been revived so haven't evolved much. The West also had more heavy armored guys where you had to get closer with piercing attacks, not slashing. With the heavy armor they wore that means they are vulnerable to grappling, and pushing people around.
@blahsdhf I agree to all your points except the armour-weight-thing. Japanese armour wasn't lighter, the design made it sometimes even heavier than late knightly armour! Thus you couldn't slash Samurai armour either, and just like in Europe they used grappling, wrestling and daggers (Tantos):
/watch?v=4wT07uNJMGY&feature=related#t=0m35s
/watch?v=8aeWU8CYl5M&feature=related#t=0m26s
Myth about knigtly armour emerges:
/watch?v=NqC_squo6X4 (bit long but interesting, why we believe those stories)
@Hatchetforce have you never seen peter von danzigs fechtbuch??? or fiore??? or talhoffers??? longsword is very much alive. look up thearma if you dont believe me
@Hatchetforce no longsword is a heavy impact blade they are versatile cutting weapons which are light and well balanced for speed, a katana will generally feel heavier because its so blade heavy
@Hatchetforce you couldnt have trained with any real weapons if you think onlykatana have fast paces, especiallu since longsword techniques attack at the same time they are defending, kinda hard to do that with no quillions and one edge
You are mistaken and your comments show this. Longsword (an over generalized term considering the wide variances in construction) fighting as it existing across numerous continents no longer exists. What you have now is people using a longsword with all the influences they have experienced, including Japanese influences. Other than Burton, and his work was late 1800's, the technique has long since vanished.
@volarion Isn't it incredible how this silly myth is established in the people's popular notion? If you think about it: In the antiquity there was sophisticated warfare like the greek or roman formations. No one ever talks about using brute force with heavy swords in the renaissance, all believe that the Rapier is a very fast and agile blade (whereas it has some weight)... But between these times warriors have to be barbaric savages with crude, heavy weapons bashing without technique?!?!
@YajimaKenji a katana weighs almost the same as a longsword, also a waster (wooden longsword) is usually badly balanced so it feels heavier than the real thing and longswords are pretty damn fast
I dont think most here realise that the longsword guy is useing a wooden sword, which means it weight -alot- less than a normal sword. A katana usally weights alot less than a european 2h sword, which means the katana user normally have the advantage of speed, which the "Longsword" guy seems to have in this fight as his wooden sword seems to be alot lighter than the bokken.
@YajimaKenji@Hatchetforce Don't believe the modern myth that european swords were made for crushing armor and deliver blunt force damage and thus were very heavy. For this you would use other weapons designed for it. A 1,5kg longsword of 1m25 of length with a center of gravity 10cm from the guard is the worst bludgeoning weapon possible. And thanks to better steel allowing thinner, more flexible blades, an european sword of comparative length can be lighter than the common japanese sword.
@DarkSignal59 also tamahagene is just bloomery steel made from iron sand when smelting to try and purify the steel, the only reason it was folded was to even oit carbon content and to try and eliminate impurities which the europeans had moved beyond such techniques when they invented the blast furnace
@DarkSignal59 /watch?v=mjT4JepA-Vc watch that to see how fast they are, and although the curve aids in cutting the 30 degree edge bevel is the same the katana is a sword thats made with a martensite edge and soft back, differentially hardened because japanese steel sucked meanwhile europeans made much superior steel centuries before the first samurai existed
@volarion kinda doubt the whole "just as sharp and fast"...just as light,you may be right from what i hear.you know the katana is one if not THE sharpest sword on earth.it's the metal it's made of and the curved design that makes it unique and,in my opinion,sharper and faster
i'm pretty sure the guy with the longsword wouldn't have been able to swing it that fast if it was made out of metal.i'm also pretty sure that a katana(not the bokken) is better than a longsword(a real one) because it's slightly lighter,faster and cuts better because it's curved
although if i give it more tought,the swordsman makes the difference,not the sword(no matter how good it is) great vid ;)
@DarkSignal59 A common misconception about the longsword is that it was heavy. In reality the average longsword weighed about 3lb (1.5kg). They were made with just as much skill and artistry as the best katana and in skilled hands were just as effective in combat. Not to ignore the great skill of Asian craftsmen but to suggest that their swords were "just better" is naive. We in the west have been doing it just as long and have our own diverse martial arts (now largely forgotten).
@Curebores I assure you that with a 1.5kg longsword you won't be able to deal a lot of damage to someone with an armor. Tournament longswords were light (and are still light) because the rules were at first touch... not to harm the opponent. But with a katana or a light sword you would do no harm at all to an armor.
@VichingoAlchemico There are techniques you can employ to defeat armour. Mainly you get them on the ground and stab through a gap such as the eye slit. medieval sword fighters were well versed in grappling as well as swords and so could throw an opponent like in judo.
@Curebores Uhm... I don't think you use judo levers... but I agree you can throw someone on the ground... but that's not fencing... and you don't need a sword for that... I assure you it's almost impossible to stab through the eye slit... but once he's on the ground he's dead anyway. You just force him down and introduce the sword between helm and collar or wherever you please. The crusarders had a blade called "Misericordia" that was used to kill through the gap under the armpit.
@VichingoAlchemico well,we were talking about weapons not armor here but yes,you do have a good point.but like i said,i was mentioning the weapons.so i was talking about katana vs longsword and their weilders alone with no other things that can intervene
@VichingoAlchemico i wasn't talking about no damn science fiction.i was reffering more to these 2 guys in the vid and if they had real swords.what i meant was 2 fighters with no armor,jeez what's so hard to understand?you don't have to exagerate
I don't know if there is any correlation between using wooden training swords and sexual orientation. But if there is such a thing these people are about as gay as most of military elite through the ages.
I hope that with "proper swords" you don't mean real sharp ones but blunted ones.
@gurkfisk89 First of all I'd really love to see you use a wood sword for training and then fight with a real longsword and armor. No more "swoosh swoosh" but just the sound of your opponent who's not an idiot knocking on your helm.
There is no correlation between feudal japan and feudal europe so the idea itself is stupid.
Even if this was the case... where is the armor? Where are the real weights?
BTW longswords and 2h swords were blunt after the "discovery" of chainmail.
"First of all I'd really love to see you use a wood sword for training and then fight with a real longsword and armor."
I'm not saying that wooden swords was the only training tool but that it was a training tool for most of history. So a lot of people who had fighting with swords as their job, used wooden swords for training at some times.
There is also a lot of sources that tells you that a longsword is not always used with armor.
@gurkfisk89 I tell you that you can use a normal sword (even sharp if you want) for training. Control is the key... without control you will harm your friend who's training with you but you also get killed in combat. Control is the key. And I'm talking about something I experienced for real.
Sure you can use a sharp sword for training. But if you want to spar with sharp swords you can't go all out because you will injure or kill someone. With a blunted sword you can go more all out.
@gurkfisk89 You don't really need to go all out... when you go past the opponent guard you stop. He knows he was "hit". I've been practicing for years with a full metal sword and never seen anyone injured. I can assure you that if you're not an idiot when you have a sword in your hand you are really really careful with it. And with a real sword you'll skip the "wood" part.
I also use metal swords when I train. We go almost all out. It seems that you do armored fighting, I do unarmored. I also think that metal swords is much better trainingweapons as they don't bounce as much and works better in binden.
@gurkfisk89 Then we're talking about totally different techniques. I agree on everything you say on unarmored fighting. Sharp edges, light weight, fast striking... and a katana will slice you off probably. But unarmored fighting is not real war... it's just an art of fencing. I think in the art of fencing in Japan they used bamboo swords (I'm not sure).
/watch?v=CGmx3pBAiGM This is part of my former school. The guy in the white cloak.
Nice video, but one thing that always has struck me as odd. Why do you do cuts that don't seems to do anything? Sure they might hurt (even hurt a lot). But one thing I want you to do next time, try to hold your sword on the blade and swing the pommel and cross like this:
@gurkfisk89 I know moves that will totally kill you... but there's little to no control in those and you can actually kill someone. There is the hammer and the thunder hit that can go through almost anything. I also know a really vicious strike you can do but... first you must train really a lot to be fast and used to the less mobility of an armor. I can tell you that you lose 45% of your skills when you put the armor on.
OK, then I think I understand this a little bit better, ofc you don't do to dangerous things (you will run out of sparring partners really fast).
But I see the problems you got. We who do unarmored fighting can always put on some more protective gear and use techniques that would be lethal if unarmored, but you can't really do that because you already sort of have the best protective gear there is.
@gurkfisk89 I've done some viking reenactment... we wore some protections under the clothing but I can tell you that's still veeeeery dangerous. Open helms for example... you deflect 1 blow and you find the blade of a dane axe in your jaw. :P
@mxPRO121 Sure... since diamond is fragile on impact. Lol, learn stuff man... you can crush a diamond with a normal hammer... diamonds are good for cutting and scratching but they go into pieces like glass.
It's getting late here so I will go to bed. It has been a pleasure talking to you and we may continue tomorrow. Good luck in your swordtraining and sleep well. Good night.
@gurkfisk89 I used a blunt sword and I can assure you it does its damage. Longswords, broadswords and 2h swords went blunt after the introduction of chainmail. On chainmail a sharp sword won't do anything except for destroying it's own sharp edge. A sharp edge is much more fragile than a blunt one. Remember that if you parry correctly you will see a dent in your sword... if you have a sharp edge... 2-3 dents and it breaks. There's no need to cut when you can break bones.
If swords was only good for doing blunt damages, why didn't everyone use maces instead? They are much better at that task. Ofc if you use a sword against an armored opponent cutting is out of the question. Insted halfswording, pommelstrikes, mordhaus and using the sword as a lever in grappling is much better. But not everyone is armored from head to toe in a battle so a sharp edge is still useful sometimes.
@gurkfisk89 Because you're already used to a sword fight, because a mace has not the same reach as a sword, because a mace is point heavy and if you miss your guard goes down, because with levers (which is what a sword is) you can deal a lot more damage with a lot more control. The problem is that you think of killing the opponent right away. In a battle you just want to take him out of combat. Breaking a bone is more than sufficient for that and a broken bone is lethal in middleages
As for parrying I like the "parry with your flat" idea when it comes to longswords. Then the shape of the edge is not as important. And I would say that breaking bones with a normal swordcut is rather difficult. A longsword is about 1.5 kg and much of that weight is in the pommel and crossguard. You don't really have the moment of inertia to easily break someones bones.
@gurkfisk89 Parry with your flat? Are you kidding me? You break the blade in no time. A longsword is much more than 1.5 kg ... I can tell you... and with good levers you can go break a bone easily. Guess why they invented 2H swords... because a 1H sword against armored opponents is not enough to deal damage.
Here is some stats from museum swords (Erase the stars):
ww*w.palus.demon.c*o.uk/Sword_Stats.ht*ml
Some are heavier and some are lighter. But not much more.
Why would a sword break more easy if you parry with the flat? The sword can bend more easy that way taking away some of the force and you will get a smaller dent (less stress concentration). I thought they went to twohanded swords because with good armor they didn't need a shield anymore.
@gurkfisk89 And unless you use the point of the katana and your full weight on it... you won't be able to go through a chainmail (and the "underarmor")... let alone by slashing it.
Also if the guy with the longsword even catches one of your blows with a correct parry stance your blade will be ruined... 2nd time... more ruined... 3rd time it just breaks away. Btw the guy with the longsword is just mocking the real fencing stances...
I totally agree that any kind of armor will protet you from most things a sword can do. So swordsmen usually tried to hit where the armor didn't protect. Or in the chainmail case, use swords with such acute tip that the tip could slide through a ring in the mail.
All swords will be damaged after a fight but I don't think many fights lasted much more than 2-3 parries.
The longsword guy isn't the greatest sure. But that's what practice is for.
@gurkfisk89 Ok man... apparently you have not seen any big reenactment battle.. Armor was made exactly to protect all of your body if you used the correct stance. You know how big is a ring in a chainmail? And you think that against a chainmail you just go with the tip? Your opponent will smash your bones while you try that.
I don't question the usefullness of armor. Armor worked. If you are up against armor you have to fight in a totally different way with your sword. For the chainmail, look at this video:
/watch?v=YbJ6_KoXvqM
Sure, just the most narrow swords did anything usefull. A more cutting oriented sword would have a really difficult time to do anything.
the kendo guy does not seem to really know kendo, he keeps lifting his feet and walking normally and is not using the sliding thing very often(i am just starting to self learn kendo)
@atbauchat Congratulations for beginning with Kendo, it's a great sport! :-) But: you should remember that Kendo is not the way of using a real japanese sword. Although you'll learn many things like reflexes, distance and timing and have some true basics of the Katana (The Kendo no Kata e.g.), it's quite different to the Kenjutsu the ''Bokken guy'' probably uses. The Kendo step provides very fast, precise motion, but when using a 1kg Katana you better have a larger, more solid stand.
@TheBoxingCannabyte go for longsword generally its free to learn only thing you pay for is equipment, that is if a hema group is around you. look up hemaalliance group finder
I love to watch the footing when watching these contrasting styles. I'm so torn between wanting to learn the longsword or Katana, it's probably hard to manage time/money to master both but maybe not after watching several of these. There are many differences...however keeping tight footwork and hacking strikes seem very similar, as well as many deflections.
I know everyone loves Katanas (I know I do) they look real amazing, generally are considered the best swords produced. However, a skilled warrior with a gladius + dirk (or shield), or a longsword man or a master of the claymore would be more than a handful for many Katana practitioners. Personally I love all swords. I'm a boxer so fencing is a easy one to build off of. but right now I'm trying to save for kendo lessons. Longsword/broadsword/claymore lessons are a possibility.
Let them try this again where each man is dealing with the proper weight of the real weapon. Longswords by weight lacked the katana's speed. Most real duels during the Sengoku Jidai were very quick affairs. Tsukahar Bokuden had over 60 duels and none were reported to have lasted as long as this video. The only hope a claymore wielder has against a skilled swordsman that knows the katana well is armor. My hand made katana's can cut rapier fast.
@Hatchetforce@YajimaKenji Look at those good reproductions, where do you see any weight or bad balance? /watch?v=xIyabBglQfA
One of the basic principles of using a longsword is to turn it around the center of gravity, contrary to the Katanas ample strikes. This allows in combination with the low weight per cm ratio very fast and agile movements... Except in movies and bad stage fighting of course! ;-P
My family is half Scot. Training in edged weapons have been familiar to me since childhood. You simply cannot move as quick with them as with a katana. The style of fighting is different and that is another matter most people ignorantly avoid. Japanese styles opened and closed at a pace combat with longswords did not use. Longsword combat was more about crippling blows from heavy impacts rather than the cutting power of sharp blades. History is being ignored.
@Hatchetforce Hmm, let me guess: Your personal expreience is something like this?
/watch?v=IuzbZAIZY_g
This is ridiculous and has nothing to do with the historical art of the sword!
I train the longsword of the Liechtenauer tradition. The longswords have a weight of 1,2 to 1,6kg, a balance point of around 10cm from the guard and are anything else than ''heavy impact blade''! That's what the historical techniques look like:
So now you are resorting to personal assumptions? That is the breadth and scope of your intercourse? Were you snubbed by a Japanese girl? Is that your issue at it's core? See how ignorant it is to use personal assumptions in a discussion? It makes discourse with such persons as yourself impossible. And that is not my personal experience about which you apparently know nothing. I've never seen that footage. So again you are wrong as seems to often be the case.
@Hatchetforce Sorry if i've made you upset but yes, i make assumptions because you didn't gave me any evidence for knowing the medieval art of fencing. Thus i believe you have experience of those reenactment group like i gave you the link, who fight with crippling heavy blows like you apparently do. It's not a shame, a cousin of mine trained for years with a heavy czech repro, believing medieval swords were that way. I've no problem with that, but you should know this isn't historical at all!
lol i'm embaressed for these guys! but when i was younger and played swords, they'd both be fucked.
TheChongles 6 hours ago
@TheChongles Oh, and you do have more experience than just playing with tree branches i hope? Because it would be very embarassing if you'd criticised those guys who have serious training while you've never went to a real Kenjutsu/HEMA school...
Railriderchris 3 hours ago
Where's the jiujutsu? Both samurai and Englishmen would eventually commit, so I expected this to end with at least a disarm, if not a full throw or joint lock.
JosephKerr27 12 hours ago
this is shit
Chameleon569 15 hours ago
Congrats, you're both dorks.
djrandallp 15 hours ago
Thumbs up if you watched the entirety of the video in hopes of seeing someone get smacked in the head with a wooden sword.
Bruno7G 17 hours ago 7
I'm sure I saw this fight scene in Braveheart....the 30-hour extended version. With ninjas.
scottdale20 20 hours ago
@Railriderchris thanks, my main weapon is longsword as well. :)
volarion 1 day ago
@Railriderchris im looking for a fechtbuch on messer and anything sword and shield related, any links you can throw me???
volarion 1 day ago
@volarion Hello my friend! I've got a very good book, ''Schwertkampf Band 2'' from Herbert Schmidt about the onehanded sword and Buckler. You might find it on ww w.wieland-verlag.co m (remove spaces). Alas it is written in German, i'm not sure if it's available in english.
As for links:
/watch?v=7PnbGGhfvfM /watch?v=UHEs2m0IXAk /watch?v=uNF1bKo0v9k
Sorry i have not more, i'm focusing on the longsword right now ;-)
Railriderchris 1 day ago
@wertguardian the longswordsmen is using the german longsword style though o.O
volarion 1 day ago
The main problem I see is that they are both using the "katana style" of sword fighting so the actual sword they have makes no difference
wertguardian 2 days ago
This has been flagged as spam show
cool wanna see another cool thing type medieval... flying face p.s its not about faces
silverinsanity8 2 days ago
@EdgeWarmantic longsword moves from stance to stance and defends while attacking the moment you describe very rarely exists with proper form
volarion 2 days ago
I wonder if the bokken user study kendo.
The strike gives me such feeling
EdgeWarmantic 2 days ago
the differences between these two martial arts are many. cannot say one is better. as far as the weapon; katanas are fragile, contacts like that are likely to chip the blade. a samurai would minimize the amount of contact, western swords were intended to take abuse like this. in this match the bokken wielder is not using this mindset. japanese method would limit a fight to a few decisive cuts using guile and a calm analysis of the opponent. western mindset would use clever parrying and riposte.
TheHardcore429 3 days ago
@TheHardcore429
Agree. Katana is relatively fragile, and only the back of the blade, but not the edge, is used to parry even when the opponent is using katana.
If katana crash with western long sword hardly, I afraid that the blade of katana would break into pieces.
To confront long sword user, katana user should avoid contact. Instead, he should evade the attack. When the opponent is restoring his stance,give a fatal blow by a quick slash, so to make use of its sharpness.
EdgeWarmantic 2 days ago
@EdgeWarmantic An edge of the thin, sharp longsword would chip just the same than a Katana, that's why medieval fencing uses many deflections e.g. with the cutting edge against the other sword's flat.
Additionally to what Volarion said, there is a principle in medieval fencing known as ''Hengen''. It says, if the strike is going to miss, one should stop the tip of the blade so that he could instantly make a stabbing to the face, throat or torso.
Railriderchris 2 days ago
@Railriderchris
Oh...my definition on Long sword in base on what is used in the video. This type of Longsword, due to the poor technology of its era, it had to be heavy and thick so to avoid breaking. What you say issomething in a more advanced age, when the technology is good enough to support thin blade.
In earlier age, longsword relied more on its weight and strength.
EdgeWarmantic 1 day ago
@EdgeWarmantic Yes, i'm speaking of the longswords represented by the waster in this vid :-)
What poor technology are you referring to? In the late middleages the steel was already good enough to not require folding or pattern welding anymore, and in the 15-16th century tempering was already known, allowing flexible, thin blades...
But even before, swords were neither heavy nor did they rely on strength only.
/watch?v=0IzpFVQAkKE&feature=related
Railriderchris 1 day ago
@Railriderchris
Brother, as I have found, the weight of the blade is between 1.2-2.4 kg, and its reliance on weight is compared with Katana(weight < 1kg).
About the thickness....alright, in 15th Century, the black smithing technology is good enough for a blade of 3-4 mm thickness. You are right. What I have said is far earlier, when the long sword is first developed, about 13th century something.....
EdgeWarmantic 1 day ago
@EdgeWarmantic 2,4kg? That's some heavy blade, probably ceremonial swords. Here:
thearma.or g/essays/weights.ht m
it says: ''Even the big hand-and-a-half 'war' swords rarely weigh more than 4.5 lbs (2kg).'' 2,4kg would be probable for a Greatsword/Bidenhänder, though, but not a longsword.
Anyway, it's true that generally longswords are a little heavier than Katanas (do you think that 0,2kg is an issue for a trained warrior?), but this comes with a huge reach giving an advantage to the (...)
Railriderchris 1 day ago
@EdgeWarmantic (...) wielder, as you surely know that in combat every cm counts. Here you have some O-Dachis (or Nodachis? I can never tell!). On the second page you'lll find one that has the same length than a short longsword but has a huge weight: (114cm/45inches blade = 3,25kg/7,16lbs), showing that the jap. blade construction results in very heavy swords. Thus i think in the contrary that the european swords were very light for their lenght, although a little heavier than the shorter Katana.
Railriderchris 1 day ago
@EdgeWarmantic Furthermore, remember that as a cutting sword the Katana has much of its weight in the blade towards the tip. This is some advantage for great cutting power and helps use the weight of the blade to a maximum for striking power. Most longswords however are more thrusting oriented and thus need precise and effortless tip-control. Many swords have a center of gravity less than 10cm from the guard, this isn't good for relying on the weight.
/watch?v=xIyabBglQfA#t=1m12s
Railriderchris 1 day ago
@EdgeWarmantic One last thing (sorry for the spamming): The longswords became popular in the mid-14th century, around 1350, when plate armour allowed more and more to fight without shields. In those times it is true that tempering wasn't used that much, because it was unpredictable with the still quite unhomogenous steel. But with slack-quenching or differential hardening they ensured a blade would rather bend than snap (like the jap. did). So to make thick blades wasn't necessarily even then.
Railriderchris 1 day ago
@EdgeWarmantic Look up ww w.albion-swords.co m/swords/johnsson/sword-museum-cluny.ht m (remove space). While special in its light weight, it still shows (because it is a precise reproduction of the original sword) that light, thin swords weren't impossible to make in the 15th century. Remember that you've got maces, battleaxes and pollaxes if you need crushing power! ;-)
Railriderchris 1 day ago
Simply put, you cannot beat the best sword in the world; Katana!
Snowman20 3 days ago
@Snowman20 Define ''best sword''. If best = overrated, then i completely agree! ;-P
Railriderchris 3 days ago
@Neilnfroname and how much swordplay have you done??? stage combat and watching tv dont count
volarion 3 days ago
This isn't really a fair comparison of 'Bokken' vs. 'Longsword'... all I see here is 'kungfu master' vs. 'father with 3 kids who like to play basketball on weekends'.
Neilnfroname 3 days ago
@Neilnfroname So since you've got much swordfighting experience, how about an interesting discussion? for example i agree that chosing the guard ''Ochs'' against ''Waki-no-Kamae'' at 0:34 is probably not the best thing to do. How would you have acted in this particular case? Personally i think ''Pflug'' would have done great against the ''Unterhau''-danger of Waki while giving much thrusting possibilities... But left or right ''Pflug'', what do you think?
Railriderchris 3 days ago
@Neilnfroname I'm not sure, from what I could see the kill counts were fairly even. Take 1:49, quick easy kill from the longsword's greater reach.
Personally, I think this should have been done with helmets. Sparring without them limits possibilities greatly, especially with the kind of swift kills you can get with a longsword's tip at range.
NewEonOrchestra 2 days ago
Dead.
Dead.
Very Dead.
xXLim3Xx 3 days ago
that was a pretty good sword fight
gunfighter964 3 days ago
Yes, because a bastard sword is shorter than a katana.
TehLeek 4 days ago
@TehLeek First, ''Bastard sword'' is not a very precise definition of a sword, it's more of its use (that it can be used onehanded) than of a particular sword design itself. So you might have very long bastard swords. Second, the hstorical Katanas are quite short to match the height of the japanese of the time which weren't that big. Third, although possible i think, i've never seen a longsword shorter than 1meter. Thus, Longswords are in general clearly NOT shorter than Katanas!
Railriderchris 4 days ago
@Railriderchris That's what I was implying through sarcasm.
TehLeek 4 days ago
@TehLeek I'm very sorry then, there are soo much people around here who believe the strangest things like ''Samurai armour made out of bamboo or lacquered paper'' (not kidding) that it's difficult to tell when someone is ironical X-D
Railriderchris 3 days ago
ahahah nice joke katana longer than the longsword.
Spandex08 4 days ago
@Gfors85 unfortunately i dont think that would help as most longsword techniques are meant to kill as quick as possible but with kendo tje sport has distorted the art into something tjat will get you killed
volarion 4 days ago
why are they always white guys?
turkeyman94 5 days ago
@turkeyman94 Because black people are too busy stealing shit.
Iwanttoleavecomments 5 days ago
esse estilo de luta co bokken e aikido
TheBettin123 5 days ago
where do you spar??? now i wanna come!!!!!!
Zedos777 5 days ago
@Zedos777
They are based in Wiesbaden, Germany.
gurkfisk89 5 days ago
much better!
Zedos777 5 days ago
how about some helmets, do-plate and gloves so you can actually hit eachother? the longsworder should realize that he only has his reach as advantage, if the samurai gets close to him he is dead.
Gfors85 6 days ago
@Gfors85 When you're closer the longsword still doesn't has the disadvantages of a spear, who is difficult to use in that case. The medieval fencer can use shorter strikes e.g. by using the thumb grip, and don't forget that once close enough he can use all the techniques unknown by the Kenjutsukas; halfswording, binden, winden, hendtrucken aso. For example in hendtrucken you push your cutting edge against the raised or lowered forearms, you press the opponent backwards to gain an opportunity.
Railriderchris 6 days ago
@Gfors85 This vid
/watch?v=ln94E9AGYTc
shows quite well how eager the longswordwielder are to fight close; you can turn around the opponents blade while binding it to prevent counterattack, you deflect and hit at the same time (in which case you're already very close), you grasp the opponents hands to punch him with the pommel into the face... In the contrary, i think the longsword, due to its hiltbalance, second cutting edge and pommel is even more lethal in close range than at distance ;-)
Railriderchris 6 days ago
@Railriderchris bad example, those swords are too light. And I do believe that you have seen very little kendo, right? its so fast you cant see shit. and the movement is from another world compare to those primitive longsworders you just showed me. the same time it takes for the longsworder to raise his blade again after a missed attack, the samurai has already made 3 attacks, kote, men, do. the knight is dead and dicapitated.
Gfors85 6 days ago
@Gfors85 First, it seems you've got no knowledge about european swords and haven't seen the vids to the end; Those ''Feder'' are heavier than real longswords who range around 1-1,5kg, not much more than Katanas. Second you're unlucky to discuss with someone who's done 4 years of Kendo and Iaido, a little Kenjutsu before starting with medieval fencing. The indeed fast strikes in Kendo with the 400g Shinais have nothing in common with handling a real Nihonto and are much more ''primitive'' (...)
Railriderchris 6 days ago
@Gfors85 (...) than the real techniques with whatever real sword. Furthermore you ignore the prinzip in medieval fencing called ''Hengen'' which consists of NOT striking down to the ground, but stopping the tip of your sword so that it could threaten the enemy, often the face.Thus your analysis of the time needed to raise a longsword is futile more than only wrong! Say, you might know Kendo, but have you any knowledge of Kenjutsu and medieval fencing? Or are you just guessing from common myths?
Railriderchris 6 days ago
@Railriderchris So your also a Kendoka :) guess thats called luck to spare me lots of time to explain Kendo then. No Im not guessing from common myths, I dont have too deep knowledge about medieval swords technique but I guess history speaks for itself. it IS a reason to why eastern asia are using those kinds of swords. if they got their asses kicked you might think that they would change, right?
Gfors85 6 days ago
@Gfors85 Well i was, a long time ago... I liked it very much, and till recently it was the only way of fighting with the Katana; In Iai you're doing only Katas. But with modern technology we have foam swords of high density with added weight to be like the real ones, so we can fight on a much more realistic way in medieval fencing :-)
Well, history says that Japan was isolated through most of its history, and most times they met other cultures (mongols, korean, portugiese) they adapted (...)
Railriderchris 6 days ago
@Gfors85 (...) the warfare... So while Japan has developped it's own warrior culture i doubt you could say it is a proof of a kind of superiority. In fact Japan never was that succesful outside of their countries until they adopted western warfare. And during the long peace under the Tokugawa Shogun, in Europe there was war... war, and war again! Do you really think Europe was less developed speaking of warfare than an isolated island that was still in the middleages 150 years ago? ;-P
Railriderchris 6 days ago
@Gfors85 I like the japanese history and especally their swords very much! They are beautiful and the art of wielding them is very intriguing! But i had to discover that the europeans had a tradition of swordfighting just as elaborate! It's a pity the modern man is believing all those ridiculous myths of heavy bashing swords and knights who couldn't stand up once they've fallen o the ground! I hate the moviemakers for this!
You look like an ok guy, do some research, you'll be amazed ;-)
Railriderchris 6 days ago
@Railriderchris no I meant the eastern Asia, you know, china, mongolia and so on, they had similar weapons probably cus of what you just said. Hm, But Japan was at war in itself all the time between various clans, that has to count? if experience and technology is what to count, then the fact that we had firearms before Japan is obvious, so maybe, its unfair to compare the latest sword culture with an expired sword culture from us? :)
Gfors85 6 days ago
@Railriderchris oh, I did some research and I could not find any of those real monster swords that I always wanted to have myself. Im Swede and in our royal chamber of armor there are some real huge swords and they cant all be for show. its a museum of what the royal guard was equiped with during history. anyways back to subject...
Gfors85 6 days ago
@Gfors85
I don't know what kind of swords you are refering to. But I think you mean the large two handed swords. And indeed they wheren'tfor show but they are used in a slightly different way than longswords. If you have such a large sword it's even more important to not cut to the ground an stop because, as you said, if you do you will be dead. with those swords you either have to continue the momentum and swing in circular motions or not strike down to the ground at all.
gurkfisk89 6 days ago
@Railriderchris Since you have been a Kendoka (grade? Im a 2:d Kyu myself 2 years exp) you know that as little sword movement as possible is the way of Kendo. you center yourself so you have equally far to all targets. what I saw in your vids is too much range, moving, swinging and so on. Samurais does not need to do that. maybe you should check up some great Kendo practise videos? :) Dont give a crap about Aido, thats not about battle... cheers!
Gfors85 6 days ago
@Gfors85 Once more: Kendo can learn you many things but it is NOT real swordfighting! Try to do a men kaeshi men with a 1kg Katana, you might break your wrists lol! The real use of a Katana is not to make ''pokes'' like Kendo but to cut so heavily that your opponent will be incapacitated! If you hit with a Kendo strike using a Katana, your enemy will be hurt, and MIGHT die of blood loss, however what is sure is HE will kill you! Try tameshigiri like you hit in Kendo, that'll be fun! X-D
Railriderchris 6 days ago
@Railriderchris I get your point but still poking (tsuki or whatevers most effective at that time) is deadly since katana has a sharp tip. 1kg is lighter than 1,5 kg, and I would say that Kendo is the closest thing to Katana swordfighting you will ever come.ofcourse its way more agile and fast than it should be, but its a non-lethal sport so...Hmm, you also seem to forget the body-combat samurais knew., you think they only used their sword? no kicks,tricks, elbows nonothing? :)
Gfors85 5 days ago
@Gfors85
"how can the knight be fast if he wears heavy armor?" I can ask the same question about the samurai with just as heavy armor. The answer is ofc that both the samurai and the knight used armor that was easy to move in.
And you seems to forget the body-combat knights knew. There isn't much differense between japanese body-combat than for example kampfringen.
gurkfisk89 5 days ago
@gurkfisk89 I think the samurai armor is way lighter, I did not forget the knightly Bodycombat , you have already given me the picture, I just pointed out that samurais fight also with body, legs and arms... What I think really is wrong here is that Samurais were until 1900 and knights lasted to 1600. is it strange that Samurai bushido is better?
Gfors85 5 days ago
@Gfors85 ... Japan closed their boarders for 400 years and no development happened in this time. As soon as they had to open up in the 1860s, the japanese knights diappeared. Better would be, if you would know the basics of history to be able to understand what you are talking about, Sir.
zukuru 5 days ago
@Gfors85
Sorry if I'm sounding like an asshole but it doesn't matter what you think about the weights. If you look up the weights of antique armor of both warriors in museums you will see that the weights is very similar with a wide range. There is for example a full plate armor in the wallace collection that is under 20 kg. The avarage for a 1400s armor is however more like 26 kg.
gurkfisk89 5 days ago
@Gfors85
You can compare this with ō-yoroi that is about 30 kg on avarage or the Yukinoshita-do of about 20-25 kg. You see, there is not that much difference. For the 1900 vs 1600 thing, see Zukurus comment. However, I would say that they did still develop during the time of isolation but not as fast. And what do you really mean when you say that samurai bushido is better? What is better with it? How can you even measure that?
gurkfisk89 5 days ago
@Gfors85 Sorry, i was out house... I think Gurkfish and Zukuru made the point. Historical data show us that there aren't as many differences between Europe and Japan as you think there would be; The armours had around the same weight, so do the swords, both knew grappling, wrestling techniques... That the Samurai lasted until the 1850ies is more a proof of a lack of developpement, not of a sort of superiority... As for the pokes in Kendo: Yes a thrust is deadly, that is not what i meant (...)
Railriderchris 5 days ago
@Gfors85 (...) with ''pokes''. But when you do a slash with a Katana you don't want to do just a light wound! Understand: With the weight and power of a Katana, even with a Kendo ''poke'' you'll do a deep gash e.g. in an arm. But would it incapacitate the enemy? If no, you're absolutely dead. No big deal in Kendo where the goal is NOT to hurt your opponent, but once again you should study what real swordfighting requires, not sport only... See you, i go to bed ;-)
Railriderchris 5 days ago
@Gfors85 Btw, i forgot one point: '' if you would grasp a samurais sword you would not have any fingers left or hand''. Nope, Katanas are not lightsabers ;-P To cut, even a very sharp blade needs A) cinetic energy B) a cutting motion lengthways of the cutting edge C) both. Ever tried to cut a tomato just by pushing? You'll crush it without cutting! That's why there are many techniques with which you can grab the edge, especially with battle gauntlets:
/watch?v=7rqP1F36EMY
Railriderchris 5 days ago
@Railriderchris man, so you forget again that they have powerful wrists? anyways, I think this discussion has been somewhat enlightening for me but I guess the best way to settle this is to let the 10 best longsworders go against the 10 best kendokas with proper armor to be able to do hits that would count as wounds in real life :) thank you all for your time guys and have a nice weekend.
Gfors85 5 days ago
@Gfors85 Yes and no, to handle a sword your wrists should be smooth (hope one could say that in english) more than powerful but rigid. I understand that because you make Kendo you see advantages in its fast, small strikes, but again: Real swordtechniques enable you to do big movements while keeping yourself safe (center). I'm glad you could have some benefit of our discussion. Remeber, i'm not saying There's a good or wrong way of swordfighting. With more experience you'll understand :-)
Railriderchris 4 days ago
@Gfors85 By the way: You do the Kendo no Katas of course? Well, the first ones are exagerated big movements to learn the basics, but it is much closer to the real use of a Nihonto than the usual Kendo strikes. No i haven't any grade, i used to hate the people wanting to have a grade to be proud (not referring to you), i preferred to beat them while being Mudan ;-)
As for the big swings in european warfare: It's difficult to explain but they make sense once you've understood how to use them...
Railriderchris 6 days ago
@Gfors85 To keep the center is important in Kendo, especially to counter the fast attacks. But in medieval fencing it's dangerous because i might seek the bind with your sword so you might not defend yourself while i wind my sword around and stab you... Or grasp your sword with my gauntlet... Or make a Shielhau to take your blade away and hit you at the same time... And anyway, in a real fight with a real sword, Chudan no Kamae is way to slow to attack since you have to ''arm'' first...
Railriderchris 6 days ago
@Railriderchris hmmm, its like you are telling me things then forget about that yourself. how can the knight be fast if he wears heavy armor? you dont think samurais would have very strong wrists after practising with a real katana? if you would grasp a samurais sword you would not have any fingers left or hand. yes, they did cut through steel helmets so gauntlets should not be a problem. Yeah I have done lots of Katas but its boring, ancient stuff for show, I prefer battles.
Gfors85 5 days ago
@Gfors85
"...they did cut through steel helmets..."
The current record of kabutowari is a 13-centimeter gash. And that was to a stationary helm at waist height. So not really a clean cut through.
For the 1 kg is lighter than 1,5 kg. Sure, but are you talking about a 1 kg longsword or a 1 kg katana and a 1,5 kg katana or a 1,5 kg longsword? Both the longsword and the katana can have both those weightes. The katana often are the lighter but that's not always true.
gurkfisk89 5 days ago
@blahsdhf lots if not most of what is taught of european longsword is blossfechten (unarmored) there are lots of slashes :)
volarion 6 days ago
@Hatchetforce you said you trained, you thereby should have learned a style.then you said longsword fighting doesnt exist meaning there wouldnt be any styles. its kind of implied with everything youve said
volarion 1 week ago
@Hatchetforce yes there are many types of longsword but the actual weapon styles used to fight with them where drawn and written down by many fencing masters, we dont have an unbroken line of teachers but we have to next best thing. and these masyers never met the japanese, frankly im insulted you would say their techniques came from the japanese at all since they are in fact much older
volarion 1 week ago
@volarion Haha, try to do a ''Zwerchhau'' or a ''Krumphau'' with a Katana! X-D Honestly, the more i train the techniques, the more i feel that the medieval fencing is even more sophisticated than Kenjutsu! This is my personal opinion and i'm not talking of superiority i.e. that it is ''better''. But the way you can use your short edge, the pommel, grappling, wrestling, halfswording, all this is not to be found to the same extend with the japanese sword...
Railriderchris 1 week ago
@Railriderchris Part of that is because a lot of Eastern techniques have for the last 100 years become more art and sport and less wartime combat. You don't go out and fight to the death. Many western styles died and have only recently been revived so haven't evolved much. The West also had more heavy armored guys where you had to get closer with piercing attacks, not slashing. With the heavy armor they wore that means they are vulnerable to grappling, and pushing people around.
blahsdhf 6 days ago
@blahsdhf I agree to all your points except the armour-weight-thing. Japanese armour wasn't lighter, the design made it sometimes even heavier than late knightly armour! Thus you couldn't slash Samurai armour either, and just like in Europe they used grappling, wrestling and daggers (Tantos):
/watch?v=4wT07uNJMGY&feature=related#t=0m35s
/watch?v=8aeWU8CYl5M&feature=related#t=0m26s
Myth about knigtly armour emerges:
/watch?v=NqC_squo6X4 (bit long but interesting, why we believe those stories)
Railriderchris 6 days ago
@Hatchetforce have you never seen peter von danzigs fechtbuch??? or fiore??? or talhoffers??? longsword is very much alive. look up thearma if you dont believe me
volarion 1 week ago
i've never really done research on any of these two martial art disciplines but they look rather interesting. good position and foot work :]
confusedcarlos 1 week ago
That was pretty damn cool!
Realbastard1 1 week ago
@Hatchetforce no longsword is a heavy impact blade they are versatile cutting weapons which are light and well balanced for speed, a katana will generally feel heavier because its so blade heavy
volarion 1 week ago
@Hatchetforce you couldnt have trained with any real weapons if you think onlykatana have fast paces, especiallu since longsword techniques attack at the same time they are defending, kinda hard to do that with no quillions and one edge
volarion 1 week ago
@volarion
You are mistaken and your comments show this. Longsword (an over generalized term considering the wide variances in construction) fighting as it existing across numerous continents no longer exists. What you have now is people using a longsword with all the influences they have experienced, including Japanese influences. Other than Burton, and his work was late 1800's, the technique has long since vanished.
Hatchetforce 1 week ago
awesome control! Very high level of skill
23mavcat 1 week ago
@Railriderchris it boggles the mind man, seriously
volarion 1 week ago
@Hatchetforce please read my reply from an hour ago :/
volarion 1 week ago
@volarion Isn't it incredible how this silly myth is established in the people's popular notion? If you think about it: In the antiquity there was sophisticated warfare like the greek or roman formations. No one ever talks about using brute force with heavy swords in the renaissance, all believe that the Rapier is a very fast and agile blade (whereas it has some weight)... But between these times warriors have to be barbaric savages with crude, heavy weapons bashing without technique?!?!
Railriderchris 1 week ago
@YajimaKenji a katana weighs almost the same as a longsword, also a waster (wooden longsword) is usually badly balanced so it feels heavier than the real thing and longswords are pretty damn fast
volarion 1 week ago
*guys fighting*
pulls out sniper and quick scopes*
Me;hehehhe only use me blade noobs xD
TheGunnar9000 1 week ago
M16A1 FTW
BunnyOnDrugZ 1 week ago
I dont think most here realise that the longsword guy is useing a wooden sword, which means it weight -alot- less than a normal sword. A katana usally weights alot less than a european 2h sword, which means the katana user normally have the advantage of speed, which the "Longsword" guy seems to have in this fight as his wooden sword seems to be alot lighter than the bokken.
YajimaKenji 1 week ago
@YajimaKenji @Hatchetforce Don't believe the modern myth that european swords were made for crushing armor and deliver blunt force damage and thus were very heavy. For this you would use other weapons designed for it. A 1,5kg longsword of 1m25 of length with a center of gravity 10cm from the guard is the worst bludgeoning weapon possible. And thanks to better steel allowing thinner, more flexible blades, an european sword of comparative length can be lighter than the common japanese sword.
Railriderchris 1 week ago
@VichingoAlchemico therrs videos of people doing it on here if you look up armor aerobics
volarion 1 week ago
That was one of the gayest things I ever saw. Yall need to really hit eachother. Wear some padded clothing and try again. No pain, no gain.
asparwhite86 1 week ago
@VichingoAlchemico actually i have i do it quite often, as long as its functional and not a costume its great
volarion 1 week ago
@volarion Sure man, whatever you say.
VichingoAlchemico 1 week ago
This is actually pretty fucking cool
Beergut222 1 week ago
@VichingoAlchemico armor allows almost full range of movement, seriously people can do cartwheels in it
volarion 1 week ago
@volarion Apparently you never tried an armor on yourself.
VichingoAlchemico 1 week ago
@DarkSignal59 also tamahagene is just bloomery steel made from iron sand when smelting to try and purify the steel, the only reason it was folded was to even oit carbon content and to try and eliminate impurities which the europeans had moved beyond such techniques when they invented the blast furnace
volarion 1 week ago
@DarkSignal59 /watch?v=mjT4JepA-Vc watch that to see how fast they are, and although the curve aids in cutting the 30 degree edge bevel is the same the katana is a sword thats made with a martensite edge and soft back, differentially hardened because japanese steel sucked meanwhile europeans made much superior steel centuries before the first samurai existed
volarion 1 week ago
this is why white guys should not use sowrds just stick with your stupid toy guns
thekalib121 1 week ago
@DarkSignal59 katana generally weigh about the same as longswords and longswords are just as sharp and fast as katana
volarion 1 week ago
@volarion kinda doubt the whole "just as sharp and fast"...just as light,you may be right from what i hear.you know the katana is one if not THE sharpest sword on earth.it's the metal it's made of and the curved design that makes it unique and,in my opinion,sharper and faster
DarkSignal59 1 week ago
Fuck asian styles I WANT PURE EUROPEAN NON ASIAN STYLES why the hell no1 make fighting arts any more :(
SoulRipper66 1 week ago
@SoulRipper66 WUAJAJAJA WHINING BITCH!!
KF1ganador 1 week ago
@KF1ganador lol a what? what u just said doesnt make any sense and I will stick by my opinion I hate asian shit
SoulRipper66 1 week ago
i'm pretty sure the guy with the longsword wouldn't have been able to swing it that fast if it was made out of metal.i'm also pretty sure that a katana(not the bokken) is better than a longsword(a real one) because it's slightly lighter,faster and cuts better because it's curved
although if i give it more tought,the swordsman makes the difference,not the sword(no matter how good it is) great vid ;)
DarkSignal59 1 week ago
@DarkSignal59 A common misconception about the longsword is that it was heavy. In reality the average longsword weighed about 3lb (1.5kg). They were made with just as much skill and artistry as the best katana and in skilled hands were just as effective in combat. Not to ignore the great skill of Asian craftsmen but to suggest that their swords were "just better" is naive. We in the west have been doing it just as long and have our own diverse martial arts (now largely forgotten).
Curebores 1 week ago
@Curebores I assure you that with a 1.5kg longsword you won't be able to deal a lot of damage to someone with an armor. Tournament longswords were light (and are still light) because the rules were at first touch... not to harm the opponent. But with a katana or a light sword you would do no harm at all to an armor.
VichingoAlchemico 1 week ago
@VichingoAlchemico There are techniques you can employ to defeat armour. Mainly you get them on the ground and stab through a gap such as the eye slit. medieval sword fighters were well versed in grappling as well as swords and so could throw an opponent like in judo.
Curebores 1 week ago
@Curebores Uhm... I don't think you use judo levers... but I agree you can throw someone on the ground... but that's not fencing... and you don't need a sword for that... I assure you it's almost impossible to stab through the eye slit... but once he's on the ground he's dead anyway. You just force him down and introduce the sword between helm and collar or wherever you please. The crusarders had a blade called "Misericordia" that was used to kill through the gap under the armpit.
VichingoAlchemico 1 week ago
@DarkSignal59 The problem is that a warrior with a longsword will have a chainmail and bye bye to the katana effectiveness.
VichingoAlchemico 1 week ago
@VichingoAlchemico well,we were talking about weapons not armor here but yes,you do have a good point.but like i said,i was mentioning the weapons.so i was talking about katana vs longsword and their weilders alone with no other things that can intervene
DarkSignal59 1 week ago
@DarkSignal59 Well, I apologize. We're talking about science fiction here. :P Next... GAITLING GUN VS POINTED STICK :P
VichingoAlchemico 1 week ago
@VichingoAlchemico i wasn't talking about no damn science fiction.i was reffering more to these 2 guys in the vid and if they had real swords.what i meant was 2 fighters with no armor,jeez what's so hard to understand?you don't have to exagerate
DarkSignal59 1 week ago
@railriderchris fair enough. i guess i can't be one to say this is wrong or this is right because i only know a very little of kendo
atbauchat 1 week ago
Are you kidding me? Wood swords? Are those guys too gay to use proper swords?
VichingoAlchemico 1 week ago
@VichingoAlchemico
I don't know if there is any correlation between using wooden training swords and sexual orientation. But if there is such a thing these people are about as gay as most of military elite through the ages.
I hope that with "proper swords" you don't mean real sharp ones but blunted ones.
gurkfisk89 1 week ago
@gurkfisk89 First of all I'd really love to see you use a wood sword for training and then fight with a real longsword and armor. No more "swoosh swoosh" but just the sound of your opponent who's not an idiot knocking on your helm.
There is no correlation between feudal japan and feudal europe so the idea itself is stupid.
Even if this was the case... where is the armor? Where are the real weights?
BTW longswords and 2h swords were blunt after the "discovery" of chainmail.
VichingoAlchemico 1 week ago
@VichingoAlchemico
"First of all I'd really love to see you use a wood sword for training and then fight with a real longsword and armor."
I'm not saying that wooden swords was the only training tool but that it was a training tool for most of history. So a lot of people who had fighting with swords as their job, used wooden swords for training at some times.
There is also a lot of sources that tells you that a longsword is not always used with armor.
gurkfisk89 1 week ago
@gurkfisk89 I tell you that you can use a normal sword (even sharp if you want) for training. Control is the key... without control you will harm your friend who's training with you but you also get killed in combat. Control is the key. And I'm talking about something I experienced for real.
VichingoAlchemico 1 week ago
@VichingoAlchemico
Sure you can use a sharp sword for training. But if you want to spar with sharp swords you can't go all out because you will injure or kill someone. With a blunted sword you can go more all out.
gurkfisk89 1 week ago
@gurkfisk89 You don't really need to go all out... when you go past the opponent guard you stop. He knows he was "hit". I've been practicing for years with a full metal sword and never seen anyone injured. I can assure you that if you're not an idiot when you have a sword in your hand you are really really careful with it. And with a real sword you'll skip the "wood" part.
VichingoAlchemico 1 week ago
@VichingoAlchemico
I also use metal swords when I train. We go almost all out. It seems that you do armored fighting, I do unarmored. I also think that metal swords is much better trainingweapons as they don't bounce as much and works better in binden.
gurkfisk89 1 week ago
@gurkfisk89 Then we're talking about totally different techniques. I agree on everything you say on unarmored fighting. Sharp edges, light weight, fast striking... and a katana will slice you off probably. But unarmored fighting is not real war... it's just an art of fencing. I think in the art of fencing in Japan they used bamboo swords (I'm not sure).
/watch?v=CGmx3pBAiGM This is part of my former school. The guy in the white cloak.
VichingoAlchemico 1 week ago
@VichingoAlchemico
/watch?v=ln94E9AGYTc
This is closer to what I do.
Nice video, but one thing that always has struck me as odd. Why do you do cuts that don't seems to do anything? Sure they might hurt (even hurt a lot). But one thing I want you to do next time, try to hold your sword on the blade and swing the pommel and cross like this:
ww*w.wiktenauer.co*m/w/images/6/61/MS_78.A.15_18r.j*pg
People would probably go "don't do that, it's dangerous".
gurkfisk89 1 week ago
@gurkfisk89 I know moves that will totally kill you... but there's little to no control in those and you can actually kill someone. There is the hammer and the thunder hit that can go through almost anything. I also know a really vicious strike you can do but... first you must train really a lot to be fast and used to the less mobility of an armor. I can tell you that you lose 45% of your skills when you put the armor on.
VichingoAlchemico 1 week ago
@VichingoAlchemico
OK, then I think I understand this a little bit better, ofc you don't do to dangerous things (you will run out of sparring partners really fast).
But I see the problems you got. We who do unarmored fighting can always put on some more protective gear and use techniques that would be lethal if unarmored, but you can't really do that because you already sort of have the best protective gear there is.
gurkfisk89 1 week ago
@gurkfisk89 I've done some viking reenactment... we wore some protections under the clothing but I can tell you that's still veeeeery dangerous. Open helms for example... you deflect 1 blow and you find the blade of a dane axe in your jaw. :P
VichingoAlchemico 1 week ago
@VichingoAlchemico can your thunderhammer go through6 feet of solid diamond?
mxPRO121 1 week ago
@mxPRO121 Sure... since diamond is fragile on impact. Lol, learn stuff man... you can crush a diamond with a normal hammer... diamonds are good for cutting and scratching but they go into pieces like glass.
VichingoAlchemico 1 week ago
@VichingoAlchemico
It's getting late here so I will go to bed. It has been a pleasure talking to you and we may continue tomorrow. Good luck in your swordtraining and sleep well. Good night.
gurkfisk89 1 week ago
@VichingoAlchemico
I agree that there's no correlation between feudal japan and feudal europe. But this is still fun and good training.
the weights of wooden swords are usually lighter, but they often also are very poor balanced so they feel heavier than real swords.
Why do you think longswords and 2h swords where blunt? Why would you use a blunt sword? Swords where sharp (Exept for ceremonial sword).
gurkfisk89 1 week ago
@gurkfisk89 I used a blunt sword and I can assure you it does its damage. Longswords, broadswords and 2h swords went blunt after the introduction of chainmail. On chainmail a sharp sword won't do anything except for destroying it's own sharp edge. A sharp edge is much more fragile than a blunt one. Remember that if you parry correctly you will see a dent in your sword... if you have a sharp edge... 2-3 dents and it breaks. There's no need to cut when you can break bones.
VichingoAlchemico 1 week ago
@VichingoAlchemico
If swords was only good for doing blunt damages, why didn't everyone use maces instead? They are much better at that task. Ofc if you use a sword against an armored opponent cutting is out of the question. Insted halfswording, pommelstrikes, mordhaus and using the sword as a lever in grappling is much better. But not everyone is armored from head to toe in a battle so a sharp edge is still useful sometimes.
gurkfisk89 1 week ago
@gurkfisk89 Because you're already used to a sword fight, because a mace has not the same reach as a sword, because a mace is point heavy and if you miss your guard goes down, because with levers (which is what a sword is) you can deal a lot more damage with a lot more control. The problem is that you think of killing the opponent right away. In a battle you just want to take him out of combat. Breaking a bone is more than sufficient for that and a broken bone is lethal in middleages
VichingoAlchemico 1 week ago
@VichingoAlchemico
As for parrying I like the "parry with your flat" idea when it comes to longswords. Then the shape of the edge is not as important. And I would say that breaking bones with a normal swordcut is rather difficult. A longsword is about 1.5 kg and much of that weight is in the pommel and crossguard. You don't really have the moment of inertia to easily break someones bones.
gurkfisk89 1 week ago
@gurkfisk89 Parry with your flat? Are you kidding me? You break the blade in no time. A longsword is much more than 1.5 kg ... I can tell you... and with good levers you can go break a bone easily. Guess why they invented 2H swords... because a 1H sword against armored opponents is not enough to deal damage.
VichingoAlchemico 1 week ago
@VichingoAlchemico
Here is some stats from museum swords (Erase the stars):
ww*w.palus.demon.c*o.uk/Sword_Stats.ht*ml
Some are heavier and some are lighter. But not much more.
Why would a sword break more easy if you parry with the flat? The sword can bend more easy that way taking away some of the force and you will get a smaller dent (less stress concentration). I thought they went to twohanded swords because with good armor they didn't need a shield anymore.
gurkfisk89 1 week ago
@gurkfisk89 And unless you use the point of the katana and your full weight on it... you won't be able to go through a chainmail (and the "underarmor")... let alone by slashing it.
Also if the guy with the longsword even catches one of your blows with a correct parry stance your blade will be ruined... 2nd time... more ruined... 3rd time it just breaks away. Btw the guy with the longsword is just mocking the real fencing stances...
VichingoAlchemico 1 week ago
@VichingoAlchemico
I totally agree that any kind of armor will protet you from most things a sword can do. So swordsmen usually tried to hit where the armor didn't protect. Or in the chainmail case, use swords with such acute tip that the tip could slide through a ring in the mail.
All swords will be damaged after a fight but I don't think many fights lasted much more than 2-3 parries.
The longsword guy isn't the greatest sure. But that's what practice is for.
gurkfisk89 1 week ago
@gurkfisk89 Ok man... apparently you have not seen any big reenactment battle.. Armor was made exactly to protect all of your body if you used the correct stance. You know how big is a ring in a chainmail? And you think that against a chainmail you just go with the tip? Your opponent will smash your bones while you try that.
VichingoAlchemico 1 week ago
@VichingoAlchemico
I don't question the usefullness of armor. Armor worked. If you are up against armor you have to fight in a totally different way with your sword. For the chainmail, look at this video:
/watch?v=YbJ6_KoXvqM
Sure, just the most narrow swords did anything usefull. A more cutting oriented sword would have a really difficult time to do anything.
gurkfisk89 1 week ago
the kendo guy does not seem to really know kendo, he keeps lifting his feet and walking normally and is not using the sliding thing very often(i am just starting to self learn kendo)
atbauchat 1 week ago
@atbauchat Congratulations for beginning with Kendo, it's a great sport! :-) But: you should remember that Kendo is not the way of using a real japanese sword. Although you'll learn many things like reflexes, distance and timing and have some true basics of the Katana (The Kendo no Kata e.g.), it's quite different to the Kenjutsu the ''Bokken guy'' probably uses. The Kendo step provides very fast, precise motion, but when using a 1kg Katana you better have a larger, more solid stand.
Railriderchris 1 week ago
@TheBoxingCannabyte go for longsword generally its free to learn only thing you pay for is equipment, that is if a hema group is around you. look up hemaalliance group finder
volarion 1 week ago
I love to watch the footing when watching these contrasting styles. I'm so torn between wanting to learn the longsword or Katana, it's probably hard to manage time/money to master both but maybe not after watching several of these. There are many differences...however keeping tight footwork and hacking strikes seem very similar, as well as many deflections.
TheBoxingCannabyte 1 week ago
I know everyone loves Katanas (I know I do) they look real amazing, generally are considered the best swords produced. However, a skilled warrior with a gladius + dirk (or shield), or a longsword man or a master of the claymore would be more than a handful for many Katana practitioners. Personally I love all swords. I'm a boxer so fencing is a easy one to build off of. but right now I'm trying to save for kendo lessons. Longsword/broadsword/claymore lessons are a possibility.
TheBoxingCannabyte 1 week ago 2
@TheBoxingCannabyte
Let them try this again where each man is dealing with the proper weight of the real weapon. Longswords by weight lacked the katana's speed. Most real duels during the Sengoku Jidai were very quick affairs. Tsukahar Bokuden had over 60 duels and none were reported to have lasted as long as this video. The only hope a claymore wielder has against a skilled swordsman that knows the katana well is armor. My hand made katana's can cut rapier fast.
Hatchetforce 1 week ago
@Hatchetforce @YajimaKenji Look at those good reproductions, where do you see any weight or bad balance? /watch?v=xIyabBglQfA
One of the basic principles of using a longsword is to turn it around the center of gravity, contrary to the Katanas ample strikes. This allows in combination with the low weight per cm ratio very fast and agile movements... Except in movies and bad stage fighting of course! ;-P
Railriderchris 1 week ago
@Railriderchris
My family is half Scot. Training in edged weapons have been familiar to me since childhood. You simply cannot move as quick with them as with a katana. The style of fighting is different and that is another matter most people ignorantly avoid. Japanese styles opened and closed at a pace combat with longswords did not use. Longsword combat was more about crippling blows from heavy impacts rather than the cutting power of sharp blades. History is being ignored.
Hatchetforce 1 week ago
@Hatchetforce Hmm, let me guess: Your personal expreience is something like this?
/watch?v=IuzbZAIZY_g
This is ridiculous and has nothing to do with the historical art of the sword!
I train the longsword of the Liechtenauer tradition. The longswords have a weight of 1,2 to 1,6kg, a balance point of around 10cm from the guard and are anything else than ''heavy impact blade''! That's what the historical techniques look like:
/watch?v=Kj4Ng6DBfrg
/watch?v=ln94E9AGYTc
/watch?v=G4k-vjdeZO4
Railriderchris 1 week ago
@Railriderchris
So now you are resorting to personal assumptions? That is the breadth and scope of your intercourse? Were you snubbed by a Japanese girl? Is that your issue at it's core? See how ignorant it is to use personal assumptions in a discussion? It makes discourse with such persons as yourself impossible. And that is not my personal experience about which you apparently know nothing. I've never seen that footage. So again you are wrong as seems to often be the case.
Hatchetforce 1 week ago
@Hatchetforce Sorry if i've made you upset but yes, i make assumptions because you didn't gave me any evidence for knowing the medieval art of fencing. Thus i believe you have experience of those reenactment group like i gave you the link, who fight with crippling heavy blows like you apparently do. It's not a shame, a cousin of mine trained for years with a heavy czech repro, believing medieval swords were that way. I've no problem with that, but you should know this isn't historical at all!
Railriderchris 1 week ago
@Railriderchris
You miss the point entirely. I haven't seen those because do not believe in them. They are inaccurate as possibly could be.
Hatchetforce 1 week ago
@Hatchetforce But even if you disregard the huge work of interpreting and translating the old fighting manuals to the good idea