Republicans running the economy is rather like the three stooges running a home roofing company. A homeowner would call them to fix a leak and the stooges would start breaking windows, removing doors, and knocking holes in the walls and floors. By the time they were done the house would be ruined and the roof would still leak. Then they would look for someone to blame.
@MnDraw ROFL- thanks for making both my wife and me laugh. What a great analogy. And sometimes perhaps a good laugh helps eliminate the reality we're in surrounded by the gloom and doom of it all. Thanks again.
This is an interesting discussion that shows the difference in approaches. The New Deal, New Deal 2, and Great Society approach was to lift as many people as possible out of poverty both domestically and internationally. This was done through financial protection, education, energy, housing and health programs. No, it was not perfect but these programs have done a lot of good. Poverty brings huge societal costs.
The right wing just wants to tax the poor -- which solves nothing.
@MnDraw Yeah you're right about the differences along with the mindset involved. We were watching a documentary on Current TV showing the disparity between 2 families - 1 rich, the other both spouses no jobs. The guy with no job said he hates getting gov. handouts like unemployment and food stamps and even said he knew 'that if these programs weren't here there would still be somebody out there giving the same thing to folks in need'. I screamed at the TV 'who? Santa Claus?'.
@raoul116 This is a really important point. Propaganda has sold too many people on the myth that somehow these services will be provided by someone when the gov't disappears. Yet, looking at the history of poverty among the elderly, shows that SocSec, Medicaid, and Medicare has made a huge reduction in senior poverty and suffering. Why didn't the invisible hand of the market do this? No money in it. People seem to be sold on some sort of Santa Claus that will take up the slack.
The republicans are trying to play a fast one with SS and Medicare by talking about "means testing". What that would mean in reality, is that those who have paid into the system, worked hard and own their own home, saved money for their retirement, would be subject to a reduction in the amount allotted to them based on their wealth. Do they really think this is going to touch the upper 5%? No. What it will really do is screw the middle class even more.
@Boomer1949 They always talk out of their posteriers(sic). And as you probably know already, based on among other things, that excellent video you made about them hating all of us (true), they only care about the top 5% so there's no surprise with what you just wrote. It's sad but the fact of life. Just look at how they keep lying about 'not raising taxes on the job creators'. What jobs? What creators?
@raoul116 Very true. In fact the reality is the "job creators" are the people who buy stuff, not the owners of the banks that finance a loan. A lone to a corporation that only uses it to give to their CEO's doesn't create a job. Well, maybe a new pool boy but that's about it. The reality is we are the job creators. We do it with our purchasing power, trouble with that is that it's moved overseas in the way of jobs, so we can't afford anything anymore.
@Boomer1949 Excellent point Boomer which I'd totally forgotten - we are the job creators for the most part. Without workers and shoppers, where would they (the super rich who own the companies) be?
You are absolutely right. IF Obama or ANY president wanted to jump start the economy all they need to do is declare our infrstructure a national emengercy. How soon is it before another bridge collaspe. Anyways declare the state of emergency start putting people to work fixing it. People working will start buying FORCING those who won't hire to hire to keep up demands. Lower the retiring age AND also start taxing trades done on Wall Street also increase taxes on the wealthy.
@jensjam Thanks and once more you add something I totally missed - yes, this is a national emergency as you state. The politicians, including the pres., are merely treating it like some sort of minor inconvienance. It's not - millions of us are staring over at the precipice.
I would have to disagree concerning taking (taxing) 1 trillion from corps. A tax on corporations is a tax on us the consumer. Are you going to actually trust the govt further in collecting this tax and distribue it properly. That obviously doesnt work well. a 0% tax rate is what would work. I encourage you to watch this vid for more detail. He does a good job explaining. watch?v=LKoC6mxXguk&feature=channel_video_title - user name is eagleeye1975
@ModernDeism I trust the gov. a hell of a lot more than I do the private sector - I worked in BOTH and know all the bs spouted about ineffective gov. I never worked so hard in my life than I did in the gov. But you do have a valid point based on the first stimulus they squandered and wasted. I would also propose tight controls on regulating exactly how the trillion would be spent - solely on specific sectors/jobs. continued
@ModernDeism part 2 - and no I don't agree that taxing them is taxing us - that's a general strawman that has been spouted by the business community for decades to avoid paying taxes. This tax I propose is more like a confiscation of excess/hoard money. I know - it goes against the grain of the fairy tale regarding 'free market capitalism' but screw it - capitalism is dead in this country. All we have now is socialism for the super rich.
@raoul116 Sorry I couldnt disagree more. Is our "free" market perfect by no means. Who will determine how much is excess ? Where will the incentive be to even start a business if you are going to limit potential ? If you raise taxes on corp that cost is passed on to the consumer, or as the problem we have now, corporations will just take their business else where.To me it seems anything the govt tries to run is poorly managed and costs too much...
@ModernDeism You're talking apples to my oranges. I am not referring to business startups aka mom and pop or small businesses. I am referring to GIGANTIC companies HOARDING trillions of dollars with no concern about our country. They'll take their business elsewhere? Where have you been the last 20 or so years? They ARE taking business and jobs to 3rd world countries to rig the game and force workers over here to take 30 percent or more lower paying jobs! continued.
@ModernDeism Part 2 - gov. poorly managed? You mean like the post office which has NEVER lost one piece of mail going out or into my home? Medicare? It covers MORE things than your capitalistic free enterprise hmos companies. Also, my medicare premium zoomed up a whopping 3 dollars this year. My wife's private coverage (she still works) went up more than 30 bucks/month and her coverage is LESS than mine! You like a flat tax? I guess the poor who'd be hurt but it don't count right? continued
@raoul116 Well I actually worked for the post office for 20 years and I can tell you it is poor managed. Have you seen the news ? 5 - 7 billion dollars in the hole. Why ? Because even though it is technically not in the fed budget they still have to deal with the red tape bureaucracy of Congress to make any changes as far as pricing, products etc. Add to that the double edge sword of the union like many others - protect employee rights yes ...
...BUT try to get some lazy ass worker fired for non productivity is almost impossible. Add to that guarantee pay raises not based on productivity. Besides the fact of union dues going to lobby the Democrat party even if you dont want to support them. As for flat tax for poor - a two tier system I think would work and plus all the illegal immigrants that are not paying income tax and draining the education and health services would be paying more ....
They still need to buy stuff. a Private business would not last with the budget problems of the govt. Remember it was the govt and our tax money that gave bailouts to banks which should never of happened. In a real free market they would of been allowed to fail like any other business.
@ModernDeism Maybe you should read some history of the various bank runs, panics, and other failures of the 1850s through the 1930s. Letting banks fail creates lots of innocent casualties among the depositors, investors, and the entire community. Common people lost everything (the rich were protected as always) when "banks failed like any other business".
The solution was New Deal bank and securities laws plus the FDIC and SLIC protection -- which worked until deregulation mania began in 1981.
@ModernDeism The poor pay little or nothing in income tax -- that's part of being poor. They still pay the same rates in sales, use, gasoline, property, etc. taxes plus all the various fees added to telephone, electricity, etc. services. So, no, they are not getting a free ride. I doubt many illegal immigrants are making enough to have taxable income even if they did report. The treasury would bring in more money by taxing Rush Limbaugh at a higher rate.
@ModernDeism Lastly - please stop using 'talking points' based on theory with me okay? I'm using facts based on empirical observations, my own experiences along with others', et.al. Your continuous comment about gov. being inefficient ignores what I've said about MY own experience working for them and getting certain benefits from them. Cite facts or I won't comment because my time is limited over here.
Republicans running the economy is rather like the three stooges running a home roofing company. A homeowner would call them to fix a leak and the stooges would start breaking windows, removing doors, and knocking holes in the walls and floors. By the time they were done the house would be ruined and the roof would still leak. Then they would look for someone to blame.
MnDraw 2 months ago
@MnDraw ROFL- thanks for making both my wife and me laugh. What a great analogy. And sometimes perhaps a good laugh helps eliminate the reality we're in surrounded by the gloom and doom of it all. Thanks again.
raoul116 2 months ago
@raoul116 Any time. Happy to help.
MnDraw 2 months ago
This is an interesting discussion that shows the difference in approaches. The New Deal, New Deal 2, and Great Society approach was to lift as many people as possible out of poverty both domestically and internationally. This was done through financial protection, education, energy, housing and health programs. No, it was not perfect but these programs have done a lot of good. Poverty brings huge societal costs.
The right wing just wants to tax the poor -- which solves nothing.
MnDraw 2 months ago
@MnDraw Yeah you're right about the differences along with the mindset involved. We were watching a documentary on Current TV showing the disparity between 2 families - 1 rich, the other both spouses no jobs. The guy with no job said he hates getting gov. handouts like unemployment and food stamps and even said he knew 'that if these programs weren't here there would still be somebody out there giving the same thing to folks in need'. I screamed at the TV 'who? Santa Claus?'.
raoul116 2 months ago
@raoul116 This is a really important point. Propaganda has sold too many people on the myth that somehow these services will be provided by someone when the gov't disappears. Yet, looking at the history of poverty among the elderly, shows that SocSec, Medicaid, and Medicare has made a huge reduction in senior poverty and suffering. Why didn't the invisible hand of the market do this? No money in it. People seem to be sold on some sort of Santa Claus that will take up the slack.
MnDraw 2 months ago
The republicans are trying to play a fast one with SS and Medicare by talking about "means testing". What that would mean in reality, is that those who have paid into the system, worked hard and own their own home, saved money for their retirement, would be subject to a reduction in the amount allotted to them based on their wealth. Do they really think this is going to touch the upper 5%? No. What it will really do is screw the middle class even more.
Boomer1949 2 months ago
@Boomer1949 They always talk out of their posteriers(sic). And as you probably know already, based on among other things, that excellent video you made about them hating all of us (true), they only care about the top 5% so there's no surprise with what you just wrote. It's sad but the fact of life. Just look at how they keep lying about 'not raising taxes on the job creators'. What jobs? What creators?
raoul116 2 months ago
@raoul116 Very true. In fact the reality is the "job creators" are the people who buy stuff, not the owners of the banks that finance a loan. A lone to a corporation that only uses it to give to their CEO's doesn't create a job. Well, maybe a new pool boy but that's about it. The reality is we are the job creators. We do it with our purchasing power, trouble with that is that it's moved overseas in the way of jobs, so we can't afford anything anymore.
Boomer1949 2 months ago
@Boomer1949 Excellent point Boomer which I'd totally forgotten - we are the job creators for the most part. Without workers and shoppers, where would they (the super rich who own the companies) be?
raoul116 2 months ago
You are absolutely right. IF Obama or ANY president wanted to jump start the economy all they need to do is declare our infrstructure a national emengercy. How soon is it before another bridge collaspe. Anyways declare the state of emergency start putting people to work fixing it. People working will start buying FORCING those who won't hire to hire to keep up demands. Lower the retiring age AND also start taxing trades done on Wall Street also increase taxes on the wealthy.
jensjam 2 months ago
@jensjam Thanks and once more you add something I totally missed - yes, this is a national emergency as you state. The politicians, including the pres., are merely treating it like some sort of minor inconvienance. It's not - millions of us are staring over at the precipice.
raoul116 2 months ago
I would have to disagree concerning taking (taxing) 1 trillion from corps. A tax on corporations is a tax on us the consumer. Are you going to actually trust the govt further in collecting this tax and distribue it properly. That obviously doesnt work well. a 0% tax rate is what would work. I encourage you to watch this vid for more detail. He does a good job explaining. watch?v=LKoC6mxXguk&feature=channel_video_title - user name is eagleeye1975
ModernDeism 2 months ago
@ModernDeism I trust the gov. a hell of a lot more than I do the private sector - I worked in BOTH and know all the bs spouted about ineffective gov. I never worked so hard in my life than I did in the gov. But you do have a valid point based on the first stimulus they squandered and wasted. I would also propose tight controls on regulating exactly how the trillion would be spent - solely on specific sectors/jobs. continued
raoul116 2 months ago
@ModernDeism part 2 - and no I don't agree that taxing them is taxing us - that's a general strawman that has been spouted by the business community for decades to avoid paying taxes. This tax I propose is more like a confiscation of excess/hoard money. I know - it goes against the grain of the fairy tale regarding 'free market capitalism' but screw it - capitalism is dead in this country. All we have now is socialism for the super rich.
raoul116 2 months ago
@raoul116 Sorry I couldnt disagree more. Is our "free" market perfect by no means. Who will determine how much is excess ? Where will the incentive be to even start a business if you are going to limit potential ? If you raise taxes on corp that cost is passed on to the consumer, or as the problem we have now, corporations will just take their business else where.To me it seems anything the govt tries to run is poorly managed and costs too much...
ModernDeism 2 months ago
...I do however support a flat consumer tax, which I think would work best. did you listen to that vid ?
ModernDeism 2 months ago
@ModernDeism You're talking apples to my oranges. I am not referring to business startups aka mom and pop or small businesses. I am referring to GIGANTIC companies HOARDING trillions of dollars with no concern about our country. They'll take their business elsewhere? Where have you been the last 20 or so years? They ARE taking business and jobs to 3rd world countries to rig the game and force workers over here to take 30 percent or more lower paying jobs! continued.
raoul116 2 months ago
@ModernDeism Part 2 - gov. poorly managed? You mean like the post office which has NEVER lost one piece of mail going out or into my home? Medicare? It covers MORE things than your capitalistic free enterprise hmos companies. Also, my medicare premium zoomed up a whopping 3 dollars this year. My wife's private coverage (she still works) went up more than 30 bucks/month and her coverage is LESS than mine! You like a flat tax? I guess the poor who'd be hurt but it don't count right? continued
raoul116 2 months ago
@raoul116 Well I actually worked for the post office for 20 years and I can tell you it is poor managed. Have you seen the news ? 5 - 7 billion dollars in the hole. Why ? Because even though it is technically not in the fed budget they still have to deal with the red tape bureaucracy of Congress to make any changes as far as pricing, products etc. Add to that the double edge sword of the union like many others - protect employee rights yes ...
ModernDeism 2 months ago
...BUT try to get some lazy ass worker fired for non productivity is almost impossible. Add to that guarantee pay raises not based on productivity. Besides the fact of union dues going to lobby the Democrat party even if you dont want to support them. As for flat tax for poor - a two tier system I think would work and plus all the illegal immigrants that are not paying income tax and draining the education and health services would be paying more ....
ModernDeism 2 months ago
They still need to buy stuff. a Private business would not last with the budget problems of the govt. Remember it was the govt and our tax money that gave bailouts to banks which should never of happened. In a real free market they would of been allowed to fail like any other business.
Those trillions are our trillions.
ModernDeism 2 months ago
@ModernDeism Maybe you should read some history of the various bank runs, panics, and other failures of the 1850s through the 1930s. Letting banks fail creates lots of innocent casualties among the depositors, investors, and the entire community. Common people lost everything (the rich were protected as always) when "banks failed like any other business".
The solution was New Deal bank and securities laws plus the FDIC and SLIC protection -- which worked until deregulation mania began in 1981.
MnDraw 2 months ago
@ModernDeism The poor pay little or nothing in income tax -- that's part of being poor. They still pay the same rates in sales, use, gasoline, property, etc. taxes plus all the various fees added to telephone, electricity, etc. services. So, no, they are not getting a free ride. I doubt many illegal immigrants are making enough to have taxable income even if they did report. The treasury would bring in more money by taxing Rush Limbaugh at a higher rate.
MnDraw 2 months ago
@ModernDeism Lastly - please stop using 'talking points' based on theory with me okay? I'm using facts based on empirical observations, my own experiences along with others', et.al. Your continuous comment about gov. being inefficient ignores what I've said about MY own experience working for them and getting certain benefits from them. Cite facts or I won't comment because my time is limited over here.
raoul116 2 months ago