They paid the price according to civil laws however paying the price for Gods law is alot more severe..The suffering of Jesus Christ is alot more then the theif God wrath upon him was alot more severe bearing the sin and guilt of the world. Our suffering is Gods priority. Jesus came to make it right for God to work against sin in our lives. Only through the death of Jesus can God come back and take back what is his.
lol...the thief is guilty...........jesus was innocent............btw jesus is the son of God not the thief.....i think that makes definite difference...........jesus was the perfect sacrifice .........the thief was blemished already b/c of sin to begin with..........no man can buy their way into heaven .......only by the way of repenting of our sins and confessing jesus as lord.........the only way to the father ............jesus is the way the truth and the life no man come to father but by me
you are not judged by the way you died, he dose not take that into consideration, you are forgiven if you are TRUELY remorseful and fully accept god as your lord and savior TRUELY. So if you were a criminal and were crucified god would not send you to hell anyway, when you are being judged in front of him he would make that choice.
our God is a good God! he gives us "rules" to protect us cause thats what is best for us!just like our parents do.cause they love us.of course we have free will,thats why we have to CHOSE him.hes there w/ his hand reaching out! he loves you, he created YOU...who knows the creation better than the creator?he tells us not to do things cause thats what is good for us! he is a loving God! he NEVER sees us as pesky ants! im so sad that people could even think that! you need to KNOW Jesus!!! ASK HIM!
Yet, if we simply say bcuz you've given me free will, I choose not to believe, or worship...in which case he will promply begin torturing us with hell-fire. Is that correct?
i can't believe the hate and anger for my Father....i should cause he was hated and crucified then.you obviously don't understand the love and grace he want to give you...a gift. you can argue all the "facts" right now...but the truth is EVERY knee will bow and EVERY tongue will confess HE IS GOD. if you don't believe that..i'm sorry. my savior saved me..i was full of hate, angry i had no hope, i've done things that i SHOULD be ashamed of...the most awful things! I KNOW theres a God HE SAVED ME
I don't see hate and anger towards ur god, only towards a religion that says god rules by fear and the threat of a hell!
Y wouldn'y god use honey instead of vinegar?
I have serious trouble with any being who would torture another. I don't care if he's a creator or not. Hell is a sadistic evil act in itself. Nothing justifies such a thing...but Xians are quick to accept it even though members of their families will be there. It apparently doesn't bother them. They said this many times!
Though It's not right, and most can't get over it, but... there is something that ya not thinking about.
This is assuming you actually have a believe in the after life, but if ya don't you are a hypocrite talking about god the way you do.
The Fact that Death is not the end nor a punishment. (assuming afterlife), and that Said characters are sending you to your maker, they in-turn take what sins from things you have yet to clean up, or it's all dealt with when you get there.
I would prefer something a little more constructive, like perhaps god healing them and making them guardian angels till they paid their dues. When an infinite time line is taken into account, any amount of suffering these people caused could be repaid with time to spare.
There are NO chances to make amends after death. You have been given one life. You can use it SELFISHLY and indulged yourself in drugs, alcohol, sexual perversion, gluttony, ....whatever you want. Or, you can ABANDON your life to Christ and allow Him to use you for HIS PURPOSE.
Strawman arugment. You assume that the only two choices are to 'serve God' or be a 'gluttonous heathen'. This is clearly false. There are ascetics of all faiths who do not engage in those acts. In fact, my grandfather was a non christain. he didn't drink, cheat on his wife, and would give you the shirt off of his back if you needed it. He wouldn't even lock the doors in his house, because he believed that if someone stole something, the needed it more than he did.
"I would prefer something a little more constructive, like perhaps god healing them and making them guardian angels till they paid their dues."
God will not care "what you prefer". There is NOTHING in God's INFALLIBLE Word that says anything about "paying ones dues." It does however mention ETERNAL.
Jesus did not even pay .000000001% of what sinners owe. How can god accept it? For god to accept the substitute, would not Jesus had to experience at least some hell?
I would suggest that 1 minute in hell is far greater then Crucifixion, especially when you add the knowledge it will NEVER end. Don't forget the other parts of hell besides fire. Jesus short change god?
"Sinners penalty=Eternal burning (etc) in hell. Jesus payment for sinner=Crucified 6 hours. Jesus did not even pay .000000001% of what sinners owe. How can god accept it?"
God can accept it because UNLIKE YOU, Christ was WITHOUT SIN. He was the perfect sacrifice for your SIN. NO ONE HAS TO go to HELL. There are those who talk big today but when Judgment Day happens, there will be much crying and wailing.
But, Mr typical bible thumper, He was NOT dieing for someone sinless. He was dieing for *gasp* me, and the other heathens. We are NOT without sin, so, your argument like all of Christianity falls apart. Keep on threatening us with hell. That always works. You will convert millions of those with doubt by threatening eternal damnation. You will convert more brainwashed Christians to reason then anything Atheist can say. I am an atheist today not because of Atheist, but because of morons like you.
"You will convert millions of those with doubt by threatening eternal damnation"
YOUR SALVATION (conversion) is not up to me ...BUT YOU. I CAN NOT convert you. I can only warn you of the very real impending danger you face if you fall into eternity without Christ as your mediator. Your EXCUSE of blaming me is just another nail you use to build your house of failure.
Your salvation is that Muslims, Jews, Hindu's, Flying Spaghetti monster are not right, Your danger is eternity separated from the Great Meatball as your mediator. I could threaten you with eternity of boiling in marinara sauce, but, no need. Your god is a prick. What is his slaughter total? Name anyone higher? The great Serengeti monster is a bit more lovable. He has yet to dash the infants skull against the stone as yours so lovingly does (several times no less.) Shove your god up your ass.
Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are MANY who go in by it. Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are FEW who find it."
Matthew 7:13-15 "He has yet to dash the infants skull against the stone as yours so lovingly does (several times no less.)"
REALLY? Perhaps you can lead me to the scripture that claims God has done that!
Do you think because your piece of shit god orders someone else to do it , then its ok? You are the biggest fucking idiot on You Tube. You do your asswipe god proud.
"Happy shall he be who takes your little ones and dashes them against
the rock!" (Psalms 137:9)
"The people of Samaria must bear their guilt, because they have rebelled against their God. They will fall by the sword; their little ones will be bashed to the ground, their pregnant women ripped open." (Hosea 13:16)
"Every one that is found shall be thrust through; and every one that is
joined unto them shall fall by the sword.
Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes;
"The people of Samaria must bear their guilt, because they have rebelled against their God. They will fall by the sword; their little ones will be bashed to the ground, their pregnant women ripped open." (Hosea 13:16
Hosea was a prophet. What he FORESAW as a prophet eventually happened to the Jew because of their rebellion to God. They were conquered by the Assyians.
The PSALMIST is also writing of an event which has happened in HIS LIFE.
How many more do you want? Tell you what. Drop your campaign of threatening everyone to hell. GO out and stone to death an adulterer, a disobedient child, someone that picks sticks on sabbath, someone that disbelieves as you...etc. Go kill some woman and children disbelievers. Post the videos. I want to see the blood as the stones crash against their bodies. Then I will believe you. Otherwise, as stated earlier, shove your god up your ass.
" Drop your campaign of threatening everyone to hell. GO out and stone to death an adulterer, a disobedient child'"
Those were OLD Testament Mosaic Laws under which man is no longer subject. Kind of like the LAWS we used to have that banned black men from marrying white women.
Bullshit. Your prick god does not change. Jesus did not come to abolish the law. He made that clear. You are a hypocrite that is ashamed of your asswipe god and his fairy tale book of horrors. Post the videos I asked for. I want to see you not be ashamed to stone the disbeliever. I want to see receipts of you giving all you have to the poor. When you got gods marching orders to slay them all, would you kill the mother or child first? Own your lies or shove you prick god up your ass.
YOU ARE CORRECT. GOD DOES NOT CHANGE. He will end up casting the Old Testament sinner into HELL, the same as the New Testament sinner. "I want to see you not be ashamed to stone the disbeliever. "
Once again...you fail to understand. NO ONE is subject to the Old Testament Mosaic Laws.
Wow, Bornagain threatening more people with hell. This is so new for him. Just when I was about to count him out as a typical hypocrite, ashamed of his blood thirsty prick god.
Keep up the new, thought provoking arguments MR Born. They are persuading millions of us heathens.
What kind of a being would inflict such horror on his children regardless of what they've done. Yet I as a human could never torture someone in such a place.
Some loving god you have there.
If U went to heaven but looked down and saw your mother in hell, what would U do or say? Would U accept it? I could quietly accept it for a stranger, much less for family. Yet, Xians go right along with the premise, no complaints!
It is an act. Being born into SIN means that you have been born with the penchant TO SIN as opposed to being born with the penchant to follow righteousness.
"so how is it that it can be held responsible for that act?"
NO BABY is held responsible FOR THAT ACT by either God or Christ. No babies are cast into HELL. We are each held accountable for OUR OWN SIN. I will PM you the answer to the second part.
"But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."
Unfortunately, this doesn't actually argue with what I just said. You have to engage in blasphemy in order to accomplish that (or pretend that all is fulfilled, in which case Jesus isn't coming back).
no the thief did not live the same events as Jesus. the thief did not live a sinless life a life dedicated to helping others and spreading the word. you cant compare the lives of these 2 only the deaths.Jesus was the perfect sacrifice.
Zac, the elements that defines a human is considered "bad" to the religious. From a religious stand point, Humans can not live a "sinless" life...even jesus. I'm sure he had sexual urges just like any other human. That's pretty similar to someone saying, they have never blinked once in their life, or gotten hungry, or never relieved themselves.
If Jesus had the same elements, then he was never "perfect". Humans are naturally born with flaws, and everything that is flesh, is not perfect. So, as the saying goes, no one is perfect.
To my fellow Christians, if Jesus was born with no father, then Adam was born with no father nor a mother..... so if you say Jesus was a God, then Adam should be a bigger God... Think about it.
you have to remember Jesus was no ordinary person He is the Son of God. He was apart of Him. He is Him. what do we do to our bodies to get them fit and in line with what we want. we punish our bodies working out at the gym and yes its painful but it satisfies us because its for a good reason. it gets our bodies into shape and we are satified. So yes it did please God .
That is why Jesus' death was the ultimate sacrifice. God is a Just God and a gentelman. He is not going to force you to Love and believe in Him. He has offered you that payment but if you dont reach out and take it, its not God to blame for you perishing. God cant save you if you dont want to be saved. God is so Just that Even He can not will not break His own laws.
"God cant save you if you dont want to be saved." It's not a matter of "wanting" to be saved. I simply don't think there is anything to be saved from - and I don't believe any "payment" is there to take.
You see everyone who accepts Jesus as there personal Lord and Savior has no more sin, so therefore at the point of Judgement wouldnt have to perish in hell. No other man who was torchered or killed even worst then Jesus could have done this cus Jesus lived a blameless life so to God He was pure. and Jesus being the son of God became our sin and died on the Cross paying the price by after death going to Hell and paying for the sins that we've done exactly how we would have payed for them.
Since God was paying the sins of perhaps a BILLION souls, so they could escape Hell, and live in paradise, then PERHAPS you can see how God's justice AND His mercy were BOTH being accomplished in that one act.
This has to be the most OBVIOUS example of an Atheist refusing to admit simple concepts!!!
If you get fined for a speeding ticket, and the fine is $150 and you don't have the money, a friend can pay the money for you, and the Judge will says that justice has been met, and you are free to go.
Well, as I'm not an Atheist, I don't really think it can be an example of an Atheist doing anything.
Yeah, but we're not talking traffic violations, we're talking about crimes that cause harm. Remember, sin is supposed to warrant a death sentence. To be honest though, the fact that our judges will accept payment from a different party isn't proof that such a concept is just, it's simply proof that our courts are more pragmatic and less principled when it comes to getting money.
just like the moron under you, you had no clue what this guy was saying, your an idiot please relocate your entire religion to a remote area and try not to affect the free thinking people of the world. and making fun of a shitty legal system although it may be true doesnt defend your idiotic beliefs in the slightest way
I wasn't making fun of a legal system, I was pointing out a genuine (though in my opinion, inevitable) flaw within it. It would be unlikely for a legal system to be able to defend my argument at all, since I was referring to justice, and justice is not often served at the same time as man's laws.
I think my analogy to a crime involving the death penalty was pretty good though, given that sin is supposed to warrant eternal death.
First off, you are NOT a Christian, so your internet handle itself is a lie. A Christian is one who has repented from sin as a way of life, and is trusting in Jesus ALONE for salvation. That presupposes you believe the Bible to be the Word of God.
It depends on if you have to have an audience or not. My guess is you do. There is no shortage of Christians who will defend their faith. Most of your kind are far too vain to have a discussion in private, because you are not looking for truth.
"repenting from sin" as a way of life? You're repenting for the way your god created you? I think your god is the one who should be repenting, sirjames.
You have a moral code inside of you that you KNOW you don't live up to. Try as you might you cannot get rid of it. So, yes God has commanded all men to repent from sin as a way of life, and to trust in Christ alone for salvation.
wow i hope your older than 12 cause if your not and you really couldnt grasp what he said not just your religion has failed society has too. he said that jesus died for no reason if your friend paid you wouldnt have to pay too. if jesus died for our sins then we should all go to heaven or he died no for no reason and we are still paying for our sins or our "ticket"
Dont try to post a comment saying someone cant admit a simple concept, when the concept has no proof and all your logic is circular
sirjames45 - You're using a petty crime, and a minor punishment, that's a bad example.
If a murder is sentenced to prison for life, and a friend volunteers to go in his place, will any "just" judge allow the friend to serve the sentence? If he did, would you say that "justice has been met?"
if god died so man didnt go to hell, why does the bible says sinners will go to hell, did jesus not die for my sins, if i still go to hell wasnt it then worthless. either jesus died and we can all sin and still go to heaven if we accept him or he died for no reason because our sins are still sending us to hell. thats a very bad argument to say that jesus died for our sins
Jesus died ONLY for His people. The idea that Jesus died for everyone, is sentimental sop that is contradicted by twenty verses of Scripture. I realize most modern Christians believe "Jesus died for everyone", but that is because they don't know the Bible on this point. Chapter and verse will be given upon request.
@azsuperman01 As I understand it (odious as it may seem) your first statement is exactly correct. Punishing a guilty person is a break-even - sin, punishment, back to zero, nothing lost but nothing gained. Punishing an innocent person actually generates some credit; and since God seems to operate in infinites (any sin is infinitely offensive and deserves infinite punishment) so the death of one innocent man produces infinite potential forgiveness. That's why the thief's suffering was not equal.
@gmsherry1953 Another viewpoint is that the thief was paying the price not to God - since God's going to send him to hell anyway - but to Man, to the Romans, to human justice. He was guilty and was justly sentenced to death under human law and that was the sense in which he was paying the price - the human price. Jesus was innocent in human terms as well as divine ones. A third way to look at it - Jesus' suffering was greater because he was innocent, it's worse to be punished unjustly.
@gmsherry1953 I'm not saying I believe this stuff but as a lifelong cultural Christian I do think it makes better sense than non-believers, looking for something to attack, sometimes say it does. To me, the basic flaw in Christianity is WHY would God create us unsuitable for our purpose - knowing we would fall - and then punish us for having the nature he gave us? Then there are problems with the supposed authority of Scripture given what a hot mess it is. Not sure this is a good example.
We are not just like meaningless ants to God. God created us in His likeness. He breathed life into us which made us apart of Him. God created the tree of knowlege to give us free will. He wants us to want to Love Him. well until the day adam and eve sinned we became apart of the devil, and like God knowing good and evil. Christ was sent to die for our sins, all sin. so that anyone who believes in Him wouldnt have to perish.
Ants praise Allah (God), they speak but we people cannot understand their language. Prophet Solomon peace be upon Him did communicated with them and with all animals.
Allah said in the Holy Qurran:
18. Until, when they came upon the valley of the ants, an ant said, O ants, enter your dwellings that you not be crushed by Solomon and his soldiers while they perceive not.
Oh, don't get me wrong, I'm not debating the fact that ants communicate (after all, they're a hive species). I'm simply claiming that their brains are just not developed enough to understand the concept of a deity (something that can be proven with simple science).
It can't be an issue of faith, since it's not called faith if you believe it despite evidence to the contrary. In that case, it's referred to as delusion. Or do you just not believe me that it can be proven that ants do not have developed enough brains to understand the concept of a deity?
Allah said: {the seven heavens and the earth and all that is herein glorifying Him but there is not a thing but glorifies His Praise but you understand not their glorification. Truly, He is Ever Forbearing, oft-forgiving.} The Holy Qurran Al-Isra.44.
The Koran, is a story written by ONE man, who started life as a salesman, became a warlord, murderer, rapist, and pedophile! He said he heard a voice in a cave, and he wrote down what he heard. to compare the Koran, with the Bible is stunningly ignorant.
19. So [Solomon] smiled, amused at her speech, and said, My Lord, enable me to be grateful for Your favor which You have bestowed upon me and upon my parents and to do righteousness of which You approve. The Holy Qurran the Ant
I have seen a couple of your videos now, and i'm afraid u shouldn't post these type of childish aswers if u truly want ppl to listen to u... Think three times before u post videos please.. it's embarresing... Peace :)
People with imaginary friends are stupid. When are they going come out of the dark ages of ridiculous superstitions and get in touch with the natural universe like grown ups. tards. keep up the good work AZs01
This was a stupid question to begin with. Jesus Christ's sacrifice was the ultimate sacrifice because he took upon himself all the sins and pains of the world (and possibly other worlds), not just because he was beaten and crucified. Besides, the Atonement mainly took place in the garden.
Believe it or not, I care about ants, and once I cried when a grasshopper died.
If sin is living contrary to God's will, and dying to provide a path to salvation for mankind was God's will for Jesus, how did Jesus take on sin? He only ever did God's will.
Alternatively, if sin is an evil act, what does it even mean to "take on" the sins of the world? It's like saying I had sex to become a virgin. There's no context in which that makes sense.
Who said this? Where are you getting this definition?
Yes, he did do God's will, and God's will was that he would "take on" the sins of the world, which he did. We don't quite understand how, but we know (or at least I know) that he suffered for each of them, and became guilty of them. (That is why he cried out on the cross "Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani" because God HAD forsaken him, he was guilty.)
Having sex to attain virginity might become more clear? This is what you are implying. To be guilty of murder, you must kill someone. It is a logical impossibility to be a murderer otherwise. To say Jesus became guilty of every conceivable sin is to throw the idea of guilt out the window.
10ish years of living for Christ, followed by 4ish years of atheism getting various perspectives and definitions from Christians. Note I didn't claim this was the de facto definition for sin, just one possibility, one we've all heard many times.
I don't believe that in the slightest and I think your definition of sin is ill-founded.
Like I said, HOW Christ took on the sins and pains is something we don't understand. But we really don't need to. We have many, many things to learn, and things will eventually become clear to us.
One who believes Jesus' teachings given by the Bible and attempts to live accordingly. i.e. believes and professes Jesus is God, repents from sin, and believes in salvation by Jesus' sacrifice.
An atheist is one who does not believe in a God or gods.
You can also be an atheist and religious as some Buddhists.
Furthurmore, you can be an atheist and simultaneously an agnostic (which occurs when one acknowledges the possibility of a Deity, but simply not believe it).
Trust me. The only way to deal with these clowns is to ignore them. I'm a former Christian myself, so not only do I believe you, but I understand why Christianity turns people into double-minded judgmental know-it-alls.
Echthroi9 and Wolf and anyone else it applies to, out of curiosity, while I don't doubt either 1 of you were "Christians" (at least by definition), what made you want to be a Christian and thereafter reject being 1?
It's also important to remember that even angels of the most high fell and now represent all that is wrong in the world, so believing in Jesus and just doing what he asks does not mean your any different or doing better then any non-believer. It's more of a way and reason of living.
Speaking for myself, I was born into a Pentecostal family, went to church from birth to 20ish. The people I was with the most, my parents, teachers, ministers, etc..the people I was taught to trust, the ones that were nice and happy and convincing to a kid growing up...they all taught me the Bible. The joy I felt at times during service, I was taught was God's presence. The things I learned in service, by reading the Bible, by talking to my parents, and the "revelations" received...
...while praying to a God I knew was listening, they seemed to build on each other.
Then when I was a teen I discovered Y!Clubs, some of which were about debating religion...something I hadn't really seen. I learned about group psychology, endorphins, glossolalia research, the major Proofs and rebuttals. And I finally had to begin admitting to myself that everything I've experienced can be explained by natural phenomena.
And it sucked, and I was angsty for a while. But now I have joy again.
When I was little my parents taught me all about God, Jesus, Heaven, and Hell. While eternal life in heaven and "Jesus loves me this I know" were quite appealing, the lesson that stuck with me the most was, "People don't believe in God because they would rather go to Hell than be nice people." In other words, doubting God REALLY means denying his obvious existence. The more I studied the Bible the less sense it made, but I could always satisfy myself with, "There MUST be a good explanation...
...for this." You see, I was a straight A student. My critical thinking skills were solid. There was no reading assignment I couldn't handle. The Bible was the only book that had plotlines I couldn't understand, like Job for example. Why would God let Satan kill and torture people to test someone's loyalty? It sounded hideous, but since God did it I had no choice but to assume He had a good reason for it. To make a long story short, I was finally convinced that people, NOT God, wrote the Bible..
...after I studied the history of Christianity, the formation of the Bible, the Theory of Evolution(which I had ignored up to this point), and the so-called messianic prophecies. Basically, I learned there's a REASON intellectuals tend to be atheists. Religion is a cold-hearted, cleverly devised, brainwashing SCAM! It sickens me. T_T
Believe it or not, as a non-believer I am MORE mentally stable, morally correct, and at peace than I've ever been!
P.S. Thanks for asking us! ^_^ Most Christians just assume we are bad people and never let us state our case. EverASurprise is a perfect example of this.
"Most Christians just assume we are bad people and never let us state our case. EverASurprise is a perfect example of this."
Excuse you. I NEVER assumed you or any other atheist was a bad person nor do I believe I said anything to indicate this. You've spoken out of line. Also, I never didn't let you state your case.
You said "Most Christians just assume we are bad people and never let us state our case." Me saying that I didn't believe so-and-so lived for Christ for tenish years DOES NOT indicate that I think he/she is a bad person. You need to be more careful with what you say.
"You automatically assumed echthroi9 was lying."
You have NO IDEA whether or not I "automatically" came to that conclusion!! I don't believe he/she is lying, I believe they are mistaken.
Yeah, you're right. Accusing someone of lying and thinking someone is a bad person are two TOTALLY different things. After all, only NICE people lie. Right? You make no sense.
"Yeah, you're right. Accusing someone of lying and thinking someone is a bad person are two TOTALLY different things. After all, only NICE people lie. Right?"
Oh please! I never said ech. lied. I said I believed they were mistaken. Besides, telling a lie doesn't make you a "bad person".
Get it together, man. Stop putting words in others' mouths.
I'm going to stop b*tching at you, but I WILL try to explain to you why people take offense to phrases like "I don't believe that in the slightest..."
Imagine if you told someone YOU were a Christian and they said they didn't believe you "in the slightest", would you not take offense to that? Then you said,
"...and I think your definition of sin is ill-founded."
echthroi9's definition was, "...sin is an evil act..."
"Imagine if you told someone YOU were a Christian and they said they didn't believe you "in the slightest", would you not take offense to that?"
No, I wouldn't. I would try to understand why they did not believe me, and then try to remedy that problem.
Do you not know what "ill-founded" means? It doesn't mean the whatever is wrong, it means it is founded on something weak or illogical. I didn't say echs. definition was wrong, I said it was ILL-FOUNDED. How do you not understand that?
"So ech's definition was RIGHT and ILL-FOUNDED at the same time?"
Do you not understand that this is possible?
I believe it was ill-founded because I doubt ech. really understood the scriptures, and if you don't understand the scriptures you won't understand these things...
If echthroi9 didn't understand the scriptures then they would not have been RIGHT. Why? Because the scriptures are where you get the definition of sin from! If they didn't understand what they read then they wouldn't be right about what it said. Take your own advice...
"THINK before you post.
To be quite frank, you are coming across very foolish."
Thanks for the honest and courteous responses to the both of you. From my side although I am Christian, I've only been to Church a few times since I can remember which is sadly due to the corruption and misunderstandings that run through so many of them. However like most people who grow up learning of God I was still had lots of things I learned that seemed to contradict themselves through the bible and make God seem somewhat evil and just didn't set right with me. The difference and one.....
of the saddest things that occurs with most people) is that I didn't abandon God, instead, as I got older I held onto what my father taught me, wanting to believe him and more importantly believe in God and find the truth. So because I did not reject God because of the false things I heard and my own misunderstandings, once I turned 16 I decided to "seek God" and the truth (at least as close as I could get to it) and it led me to a great study that my father had left behind and it taught me...
so many great things that literally filled me with joy, 1 of them being a much better perspective or "truth" about the word/place "Hell". The most important thing it had taught me though was that I could no longer believe in things word for word without going in and researching them and getting a better and more thorough perspective on what is being said. I know so many more things now then I had just from reading the bible front to back and I wish more people would try and really understand...
God and at least try to understand the truth the best they can before giving up and agreeing with some other side or relying on "proof" and "evidence". Both sides fight back and forth all the time yet to me I believe both are (possibly) 1 and the same for instance; The Big Bang, Evolution and maybe even Dinosaurs. Religious ppl shouldn't expect the bible to be all the truth to the world and vis-versa from non-religious ppl especially since they don't ultimately matter in your D2D life.
That's a very good thing to go with to a certain extent I would have to agree. My only differ of opinion would be when the question has to do with faith or somethings as such because not everything requires hard core facts or proof down to the smallest detail before you can accept or believe in it/them, like trust for example.
"I'm also pretty curious about what sin really is"
Simply put...SIN is rebellion to God and HIS WILL for your life. The act of claiming "There is no god" (Psalm 14:1) is SIN. The act of choosing one's own marriage partner is SIN. The act of choosing homosexuality is SIN.
Oh, a combination of 'living contrary to god's will' and 'committing evil acts'. Well, I posited both of those definitions, and EverASurprise scoffed at the idea that either of those were sin. So either you're wrong, she's wrong, or you're both wrong. Since apparently you're both Christians...next time get the story straight before talking to an atheist? :)
"So either you're wrong, she's wrong, or you're both wrong. Since apparently you're both Christians...next time get the story straight before talking to an atheist? :)"
EverASurprise is a MORMON and will have differing views from a Christian.
That's the difference between personal truth and ACTUAL truth. Personal truth varies CONSTANTLY while actual truth stays the same. For instance, my cat will ALWAYS be a cat no matter who's looking at it. Of course you could argue that with a bullshit argument for the sake of being argumentative...but, for your sake, don't.
"That's the difference between personal truth and ACTUAL truth."
Truth is truth. "Personal truth" isn't truth unless it's actually TRUTH. Therefore, there is no difference between "personal truth" and "actual truth" - they are both truth. Hence the word truth in both of them.
Answer this then. Are Mormon teachings more TRUE than Catholic, Protestant, Jehova's Witnesses, or Pentecostal teachings? Who's "truth" is THE truth? Why do they vary? How can you tell which one is right?
There is some truth twisted in Catholic, Protestant, JW's, and Pentecostal.
"Who's "truth" is THE truth?"
Okay, the problem that I see is you are taking what everyone believes to be true, and calling it "truth". Just because it is believed and followed doesn't make it true. One person might believe in a "truth" and that can be "truth" to them, but if it isn't true than it should never even be called "truth". One person's truth, if not true, is just a belief.
I used to believe the same thing until God led me to solve the problem of whose "truth" is THE truth by doing some serious research. My findings were that not only was MY "truth" not THE truth, but no one else had THE truth either.
So, basically, God telling me to search for the truth is the reason I have no choice but to not believe in Him anymore.
No, it just requires more details to make sense. So here's what else you need to know. That "Spirit of Revelation" doctrine was taught to me by parents. When it came to understanding scripture, strangely enough, EVERYONE gets a DIFFERENT revelation...it didn't take me long to realize that that's the REAL reason why churches break up. Not even my parents could stop fighting over whose TRUTH was TRUE!
Conclusion#1: the Holy Spirit is a silly prankster
I used to be Christian and I can tell you, this argument is useless!
CHRISTIAN APOLOGETIC
"You see, Jesus' death is a magical sacrifice pleasing to the LORD. He cares about us but he needs magical sacrifices...why?...because he does! The LORD works in mysterious ways! Who are WE to question the judgment of the all powerful GOD! Might makes right! Yadayadyadayada, brainwashing until you either convert or go insane, destruction of civilization as we know it. But it's all about LOVE! :)"
I'm praying for you. God Bless.
YHWHiscoming 9 months ago
They paid the price according to civil laws however paying the price for Gods law is alot more severe..The suffering of Jesus Christ is alot more then the theif God wrath upon him was alot more severe bearing the sin and guilt of the world. Our suffering is Gods priority. Jesus came to make it right for God to work against sin in our lives. Only through the death of Jesus can God come back and take back what is his.
MissChaceurz 9 months ago
Hey, AZSuperman01, what's the name to the song in the beginning of this video?! It's awesome.
SheepRCool17 2 years ago
@SheepRCool17: It's a remix of 'Hunting For Witches' by Bloc Party.
inphanta 1 year ago
/watch?v=fFH0khjgA0U
TheHonestTheist 2 years ago
i agree u r the biggest retard on the utube. get a lobotomy
ptica11 2 years ago
lol...the thief is guilty...........jesus was innocent............btw jesus is the son of God not the thief.....i think that makes definite difference...........jesus was the perfect sacrifice .........the thief was blemished already b/c of sin to begin with..........no man can buy their way into heaven .......only by the way of repenting of our sins and confessing jesus as lord.........the only way to the father ............jesus is the way the truth and the life no man come to father but by me
castb4u 2 years ago
I subscribed.
Chriskct 3 years ago
you are not judged by the way you died, he dose not take that into consideration, you are forgiven if you are TRUELY remorseful and fully accept god as your lord and savior TRUELY. So if you were a criminal and were crucified god would not send you to hell anyway, when you are being judged in front of him he would make that choice.
RockPap3rSizerzz 3 years ago
our God is a good God! he gives us "rules" to protect us cause thats what is best for us!just like our parents do.cause they love us.of course we have free will,thats why we have to CHOSE him.hes there w/ his hand reaching out! he loves you, he created YOU...who knows the creation better than the creator?he tells us not to do things cause thats what is good for us! he is a loving God! he NEVER sees us as pesky ants! im so sad that people could even think that! you need to KNOW Jesus!!! ASK HIM!
hshambaugh 3 years ago
All of his rules exist for the protection of mankind?
Beskargam 3 years ago
hsh..
Yet, if we simply say bcuz you've given me free will, I choose not to believe, or worship...in which case he will promply begin torturing us with hell-fire. Is that correct?
sixkiller111 2 years ago
i can't believe the hate and anger for my Father....i should cause he was hated and crucified then.you obviously don't understand the love and grace he want to give you...a gift. you can argue all the "facts" right now...but the truth is EVERY knee will bow and EVERY tongue will confess HE IS GOD. if you don't believe that..i'm sorry. my savior saved me..i was full of hate, angry i had no hope, i've done things that i SHOULD be ashamed of...the most awful things! I KNOW theres a God HE SAVED ME
hshambaugh 3 years ago
hsh..
I don't see hate and anger towards ur god, only towards a religion that says god rules by fear and the threat of a hell!
Y wouldn'y god use honey instead of vinegar?
I have serious trouble with any being who would torture another. I don't care if he's a creator or not. Hell is a sadistic evil act in itself. Nothing justifies such a thing...but Xians are quick to accept it even though members of their families will be there. It apparently doesn't bother them. They said this many times!
sixkiller111 2 years ago
" I don't care if he's a creator or not. Hell is a sadistic evil act in itself. Nothing justifies such a thing.."
TED BUNDY. ADOLPH HITLER. POL POT. JOSEPH STALIN. JOHN WAYNE GACY. JEFFREY DAHMER. AL CAPONE. What do these people deserve?
bornagain001 2 years ago
Do they deserve to be tortured for eternity?
Beskargam 2 years ago 2
Reform.
Though It's not right, and most can't get over it, but... there is something that ya not thinking about.
This is assuming you actually have a believe in the after life, but if ya don't you are a hypocrite talking about god the way you do.
The Fact that Death is not the end nor a punishment. (assuming afterlife), and that Said characters are sending you to your maker, they in-turn take what sins from things you have yet to clean up, or it's all dealt with when you get there.
KernsNoel 2 years ago
Umm Sorry, That was a reply to bornagain001 about what others deserve. It got mistposted XD
KernsNoel 2 years ago
I would prefer something a little more constructive, like perhaps god healing them and making them guardian angels till they paid their dues. When an infinite time line is taken into account, any amount of suffering these people caused could be repaid with time to spare.
VigilanteNighthawk 2 years ago
There are NO chances to make amends after death. You have been given one life. You can use it SELFISHLY and indulged yourself in drugs, alcohol, sexual perversion, gluttony, ....whatever you want. Or, you can ABANDON your life to Christ and allow Him to use you for HIS PURPOSE.
bornagain001 2 years ago
Strawman arugment. You assume that the only two choices are to 'serve God' or be a 'gluttonous heathen'. This is clearly false. There are ascetics of all faiths who do not engage in those acts. In fact, my grandfather was a non christain. he didn't drink, cheat on his wife, and would give you the shirt off of his back if you needed it. He wouldn't even lock the doors in his house, because he believed that if someone stole something, the needed it more than he did.
VigilanteNighthawk 2 years ago
Comment removed
SheepRCool17 2 years ago
@bornagain001 you make life sound like such a false dichotomy
matt0198922 2 years ago
"I would prefer something a little more constructive, like perhaps god healing them and making them guardian angels till they paid their dues."
God will not care "what you prefer". There is NOTHING in God's INFALLIBLE Word that says anything about "paying ones dues." It does however mention ETERNAL.
bornagain001 2 years ago
it did say that what do you think "death" meant,
and how do we pay for sins, going to hell
So if he took our punishment what do you think he did?
saxaphone4444 3 years ago
it is not the death on the cross itself
it is the time he spent in hell as a perfect person
saxaphone4444 3 years ago
Hell!? When did he go to hell? Nobody ever explicitly OR implicitly says that.
supermandan85 3 years ago
I'm waitning for AZsuperman to make some more stuff. He's informational, but also very entertaining.
charlesfloyb 3 years ago
u are a dipshit, ure religious is a fake, so ah yea u suck
daniellos333 3 years ago
Can someone help me with the math?
Sinners penalty=Eternal burning (etc) in hell
Jesus payment for sinner=Crucified 6 hours
Jesus did not even pay .000000001% of what sinners owe. How can god accept it? For god to accept the substitute, would not Jesus had to experience at least some hell?
I would suggest that 1 minute in hell is far greater then Crucifixion, especially when you add the knowledge it will NEVER end. Don't forget the other parts of hell besides fire. Jesus short change god?
Zenthor2112 3 years ago
Looks like it. God'll probably send some debt collectors to break his legs any day now. He might be family, but debt it debt, right?
Beskargam 3 years ago
Can someone help me with the math?
"Sinners penalty=Eternal burning (etc) in hell. Jesus payment for sinner=Crucified 6 hours. Jesus did not even pay .000000001% of what sinners owe. How can god accept it?"
God can accept it because UNLIKE YOU, Christ was WITHOUT SIN. He was the perfect sacrifice for your SIN. NO ONE HAS TO go to HELL. There are those who talk big today but when Judgment Day happens, there will be much crying and wailing.
bornagain001 3 years ago
But, Mr typical bible thumper, He was NOT dieing for someone sinless. He was dieing for *gasp* me, and the other heathens. We are NOT without sin, so, your argument like all of Christianity falls apart. Keep on threatening us with hell. That always works. You will convert millions of those with doubt by threatening eternal damnation. You will convert more brainwashed Christians to reason then anything Atheist can say. I am an atheist today not because of Atheist, but because of morons like you.
Zenthor2112 3 years ago
"You will convert millions of those with doubt by threatening eternal damnation"
YOUR SALVATION (conversion) is not up to me ...BUT YOU. I CAN NOT convert you. I can only warn you of the very real impending danger you face if you fall into eternity without Christ as your mediator. Your EXCUSE of blaming me is just another nail you use to build your house of failure.
bornagain001 3 years ago
Your salvation is that Muslims, Jews, Hindu's, Flying Spaghetti monster are not right, Your danger is eternity separated from the Great Meatball as your mediator. I could threaten you with eternity of boiling in marinara sauce, but, no need. Your god is a prick. What is his slaughter total? Name anyone higher? The great Serengeti monster is a bit more lovable. He has yet to dash the infants skull against the stone as yours so lovingly does (several times no less.) Shove your god up your ass.
Zenthor2112 3 years ago
Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are MANY who go in by it. Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are FEW who find it."
Matthew 7:13-15 "He has yet to dash the infants skull against the stone as yours so lovingly does (several times no less.)"
REALLY? Perhaps you can lead me to the scripture that claims God has done that!
bornagain001 3 years ago
Do you think because your piece of shit god orders someone else to do it , then its ok? You are the biggest fucking idiot on You Tube. You do your asswipe god proud.
Zenthor2112 3 years ago
Why don't you quote me the scriture verses where God orders someone else to do it. Since you quoted it...you must surely know where it is.
bornagain001 3 years ago
"Happy shall he be who takes your little ones and dashes them against
the rock!" (Psalms 137:9)
"The people of Samaria must bear their guilt, because they have rebelled against their God. They will fall by the sword; their little ones will be bashed to the ground, their pregnant women ripped open." (Hosea 13:16)
"Every one that is found shall be thrust through; and every one that is
joined unto them shall fall by the sword.
Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes;
Zenthor2112 3 years ago
"The people of Samaria must bear their guilt, because they have rebelled against their God. They will fall by the sword; their little ones will be bashed to the ground, their pregnant women ripped open." (Hosea 13:16
Hosea was a prophet. What he FORESAW as a prophet eventually happened to the Jew because of their rebellion to God. They were conquered by the Assyians.
The PSALMIST is also writing of an event which has happened in HIS LIFE.
Neither of these were commanded by God.
bornagain001 3 years ago
How many more do you want? Tell you what. Drop your campaign of threatening everyone to hell. GO out and stone to death an adulterer, a disobedient child, someone that picks sticks on sabbath, someone that disbelieves as you...etc. Go kill some woman and children disbelievers. Post the videos. I want to see the blood as the stones crash against their bodies. Then I will believe you. Otherwise, as stated earlier, shove your god up your ass.
Zenthor2112 3 years ago
" Drop your campaign of threatening everyone to hell. GO out and stone to death an adulterer, a disobedient child'"
Those were OLD Testament Mosaic Laws under which man is no longer subject. Kind of like the LAWS we used to have that banned black men from marrying white women.
bornagain001 3 years ago
Bullshit. Your prick god does not change. Jesus did not come to abolish the law. He made that clear. You are a hypocrite that is ashamed of your asswipe god and his fairy tale book of horrors. Post the videos I asked for. I want to see you not be ashamed to stone the disbeliever. I want to see receipts of you giving all you have to the poor. When you got gods marching orders to slay them all, would you kill the mother or child first? Own your lies or shove you prick god up your ass.
Zenthor2112 3 years ago
"Your prick god does not change."
YOU ARE CORRECT. GOD DOES NOT CHANGE. He will end up casting the Old Testament sinner into HELL, the same as the New Testament sinner. "I want to see you not be ashamed to stone the disbeliever. "
Once again...you fail to understand. NO ONE is subject to the Old Testament Mosaic Laws.
bornagain001 3 years ago
Wow, Bornagain threatening more people with hell. This is so new for him. Just when I was about to count him out as a typical hypocrite, ashamed of his blood thirsty prick god.
Keep up the new, thought provoking arguments MR Born. They are persuading millions of us heathens.
Zenthor2112 3 years ago
My purpose here is NOT to PERSUADE you but to WARN you that HELL is real and people will spend eternity there.
bornagain001 3 years ago
Might want to start with establishing how Hell is real.
Beskargam 3 years ago
born...
What kind of a being would inflict such horror on his children regardless of what they've done. Yet I as a human could never torture someone in such a place.
Some loving god you have there.
If U went to heaven but looked down and saw your mother in hell, what would U do or say? Would U accept it? I could quietly accept it for a stranger, much less for family. Yet, Xians go right along with the premise, no complaints!
Might not do any good, but "I'd raise hell!"
sixkiller111 2 years ago
"born...What kind of a being would inflict such horror on his children"
He wouldn't. You are under the false impression that YOU are one of His children. YOU ARE NOT. You were born into SIN which makes SATAN your father.
bornagain001 2 years ago
How does one become born into sin?
Beskargam 2 years ago
By being born.
bornagain001 2 years ago
How's that again?
I thought sin was supposed to be an act, which is why it's punishable.
Being born isn't something anyone has any control over, so how can it cause one to have sin?
Beskargam 2 years ago
It is an act. Being born into SIN means that you have been born with the penchant TO SIN as opposed to being born with the penchant to follow righteousness.
bornagain001 2 years ago
But being born is completely beyond the control of the baby, so how is it that it can be held responsible for that act?
Why are people born with the penchant to sin? What makes you think this?
Beskargam 2 years ago
"so how is it that it can be held responsible for that act?"
NO BABY is held responsible FOR THAT ACT by either God or Christ. No babies are cast into HELL. We are each held accountable for OUR OWN SIN. I will PM you the answer to the second part.
bornagain001 2 years ago
Ever read Matthew 5:18?
It says that none of the law shall disappear until all is fulfilled.
Beskargam 3 years ago
"Ever read Matthew 5:18?
It says that none of the law shall disappear until all is fulfilled."
Ever read 1 Corinthians 2:14-16
"But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."
bornagain001 3 years ago
Unfortunately, this doesn't actually argue with what I just said. You have to engage in blasphemy in order to accomplish that (or pretend that all is fulfilled, in which case Jesus isn't coming back).
Beskargam 3 years ago
no the thief did not live the same events as Jesus. the thief did not live a sinless life a life dedicated to helping others and spreading the word. you cant compare the lives of these 2 only the deaths.Jesus was the perfect sacrifice.
ZacAndNicole 3 years ago
Zac, the elements that defines a human is considered "bad" to the religious. From a religious stand point, Humans can not live a "sinless" life...even jesus. I'm sure he had sexual urges just like any other human. That's pretty similar to someone saying, they have never blinked once in their life, or gotten hungry, or never relieved themselves.
DiggumSmack77 3 years ago 3
If Jesus had the same elements, then he was never "perfect". Humans are naturally born with flaws, and everything that is flesh, is not perfect. So, as the saying goes, no one is perfect.
DiggumSmack77 3 years ago
To my fellow Christians, if Jesus was born with no father, then Adam was born with no father nor a mother..... so if you say Jesus was a God, then Adam should be a bigger God... Think about it.
world101010 3 years ago
you have to remember Jesus was no ordinary person He is the Son of God. He was apart of Him. He is Him. what do we do to our bodies to get them fit and in line with what we want. we punish our bodies working out at the gym and yes its painful but it satisfies us because its for a good reason. it gets our bodies into shape and we are satified. So yes it did please God .
ace12201 3 years ago
That is why Jesus' death was the ultimate sacrifice. God is a Just God and a gentelman. He is not going to force you to Love and believe in Him. He has offered you that payment but if you dont reach out and take it, its not God to blame for you perishing. God cant save you if you dont want to be saved. God is so Just that Even He can not will not break His own laws.
ace12201 3 years ago
"God cant save you if you dont want to be saved." It's not a matter of "wanting" to be saved. I simply don't think there is anything to be saved from - and I don't believe any "payment" is there to take.
azsuperman01 3 years ago
You see everyone who accepts Jesus as there personal Lord and Savior has no more sin, so therefore at the point of Judgement wouldnt have to perish in hell. No other man who was torchered or killed even worst then Jesus could have done this cus Jesus lived a blameless life so to God He was pure. and Jesus being the son of God became our sin and died on the Cross paying the price by after death going to Hell and paying for the sins that we've done exactly how we would have payed for them.
ace12201 3 years ago
ace12201 - So "God's Justice" is satisfied by punishing an innocent person rather than punishing a guilty person?
I'm glad our "fallible human justice" doesn't work that way!!
azsuperman01 3 years ago
Since God was paying the sins of perhaps a BILLION souls, so they could escape Hell, and live in paradise, then PERHAPS you can see how God's justice AND His mercy were BOTH being accomplished in that one act.
sirjames45 3 years ago
Justice = not jailing an innocent man for the crimes of a guilty one, even if the innocent one WANTS to take the punishment.
Beskargam 3 years ago
This has to be the most OBVIOUS example of an Atheist refusing to admit simple concepts!!!
If you get fined for a speeding ticket, and the fine is $150 and you don't have the money, a friend can pay the money for you, and the Judge will says that justice has been met, and you are free to go.
sirjames45 3 years ago
Well, as I'm not an Atheist, I don't really think it can be an example of an Atheist doing anything.
Yeah, but we're not talking traffic violations, we're talking about crimes that cause harm. Remember, sin is supposed to warrant a death sentence. To be honest though, the fact that our judges will accept payment from a different party isn't proof that such a concept is just, it's simply proof that our courts are more pragmatic and less principled when it comes to getting money.
Beskargam 3 years ago
just like the moron under you, you had no clue what this guy was saying, your an idiot please relocate your entire religion to a remote area and try not to affect the free thinking people of the world. and making fun of a shitty legal system although it may be true doesnt defend your idiotic beliefs in the slightest way
awonderingchristian 3 years ago
My entire religion?
...But I don't have one...
I wasn't making fun of a legal system, I was pointing out a genuine (though in my opinion, inevitable) flaw within it. It would be unlikely for a legal system to be able to defend my argument at all, since I was referring to justice, and justice is not often served at the same time as man's laws.
I think my analogy to a crime involving the death penalty was pretty good though, given that sin is supposed to warrant eternal death.
Beskargam 3 years ago
First off, you are NOT a Christian, so your internet handle itself is a lie. A Christian is one who has repented from sin as a way of life, and is trusting in Jesus ALONE for salvation. That presupposes you believe the Bible to be the Word of God.
sirjames45 3 years ago
dam straight im not a christian the only way i can get into real disscusions with u jesus freaks is to have a name like this.
awonderingchristian 3 years ago
It depends on if you have to have an audience or not. My guess is you do. There is no shortage of Christians who will defend their faith. Most of your kind are far too vain to have a discussion in private, because you are not looking for truth.
sirjames45 3 years ago
"repenting from sin" as a way of life? You're repenting for the way your god created you? I think your god is the one who should be repenting, sirjames.
DiggumSmack77 3 years ago
You have a moral code inside of you that you KNOW you don't live up to. Try as you might you cannot get rid of it. So, yes God has commanded all men to repent from sin as a way of life, and to trust in Christ alone for salvation.
sirjames45 3 years ago
sirjames, the code that I live by is called the Golden Rule. "No God added".
DiggumSmack77 3 years ago
wow i hope your older than 12 cause if your not and you really couldnt grasp what he said not just your religion has failed society has too. he said that jesus died for no reason if your friend paid you wouldnt have to pay too. if jesus died for our sins then we should all go to heaven or he died no for no reason and we are still paying for our sins or our "ticket"
Dont try to post a comment saying someone cant admit a simple concept, when the concept has no proof and all your logic is circular
awonderingchristian 3 years ago
sirjames45 - You're using a petty crime, and a minor punishment, that's a bad example.
If a murder is sentenced to prison for life, and a friend volunteers to go in his place, will any "just" judge allow the friend to serve the sentence? If he did, would you say that "justice has been met?"
azsuperman01 3 years ago
if god died so man didnt go to hell, why does the bible says sinners will go to hell, did jesus not die for my sins, if i still go to hell wasnt it then worthless. either jesus died and we can all sin and still go to heaven if we accept him or he died for no reason because our sins are still sending us to hell. thats a very bad argument to say that jesus died for our sins
awonderingchristian 3 years ago
Jesus died ONLY for His people. The idea that Jesus died for everyone, is sentimental sop that is contradicted by twenty verses of Scripture. I realize most modern Christians believe "Jesus died for everyone", but that is because they don't know the Bible on this point. Chapter and verse will be given upon request.
sirjames45 3 years ago
@azsuperman01 As I understand it (odious as it may seem) your first statement is exactly correct. Punishing a guilty person is a break-even - sin, punishment, back to zero, nothing lost but nothing gained. Punishing an innocent person actually generates some credit; and since God seems to operate in infinites (any sin is infinitely offensive and deserves infinite punishment) so the death of one innocent man produces infinite potential forgiveness. That's why the thief's suffering was not equal.
gmsherry1953 9 months ago
@gmsherry1953 Another viewpoint is that the thief was paying the price not to God - since God's going to send him to hell anyway - but to Man, to the Romans, to human justice. He was guilty and was justly sentenced to death under human law and that was the sense in which he was paying the price - the human price. Jesus was innocent in human terms as well as divine ones. A third way to look at it - Jesus' suffering was greater because he was innocent, it's worse to be punished unjustly.
gmsherry1953 9 months ago
@gmsherry1953 I'm not saying I believe this stuff but as a lifelong cultural Christian I do think it makes better sense than non-believers, looking for something to attack, sometimes say it does. To me, the basic flaw in Christianity is WHY would God create us unsuitable for our purpose - knowing we would fall - and then punish us for having the nature he gave us? Then there are problems with the supposed authority of Scripture given what a hot mess it is. Not sure this is a good example.
gmsherry1953 9 months ago
We are not just like meaningless ants to God. God created us in His likeness. He breathed life into us which made us apart of Him. God created the tree of knowlege to give us free will. He wants us to want to Love Him. well until the day adam and eve sinned we became apart of the devil, and like God knowing good and evil. Christ was sent to die for our sins, all sin. so that anyone who believes in Him wouldnt have to perish.
ace12201 3 years ago
The Holy Qurran is always in agreement with science:
55a . net/firas/english/?page=show_d et&id=327&select_page=5
please remove spaces around dots.
world101010 3 years ago
Ants were created by Allah (God), why should ants worship other than who created them?
Ants know the fact that they were created by Allah (God) and that humans are created by Him as well.
world101010 3 years ago
Ants don't have the capacity to contemplate a deity, let alone acknowledge one as their creator.
Beskargam 3 years ago
Part1
Ants praise Allah (God), they speak but we people cannot understand their language. Prophet Solomon peace be upon Him did communicated with them and with all animals.
Allah said in the Holy Qurran:
18. Until, when they came upon the valley of the ants, an ant said, O ants, enter your dwellings that you not be crushed by Solomon and his soldiers while they perceive not.
world101010 3 years ago
Oh, don't get me wrong, I'm not debating the fact that ants communicate (after all, they're a hive species). I'm simply claiming that their brains are just not developed enough to understand the concept of a deity (something that can be proven with simple science).
Beskargam 3 years ago
I disagree with you on this too : )
world101010 3 years ago
Why is that?
It can't be an issue of faith, since it's not called faith if you believe it despite evidence to the contrary. In that case, it's referred to as delusion. Or do you just not believe me that it can be proven that ants do not have developed enough brains to understand the concept of a deity?
Beskargam 3 years ago
Allah said: {the seven heavens and the earth and all that is herein glorifying Him but there is not a thing but glorifies His Praise but you understand not their glorification. Truly, He is Ever Forbearing, oft-forgiving.} The Holy Qurran Al-Isra.44.
world101010 3 years ago
So, because the Qurran says it, it must be true? (even if it can be proven false?)
Beskargam 3 years ago
The Koran, is a story written by ONE man, who started life as a salesman, became a warlord, murderer, rapist, and pedophile! He said he heard a voice in a cave, and he wrote down what he heard. to compare the Koran, with the Bible is stunningly ignorant.
sirjames45 3 years ago
Comment removed
world101010 3 years ago
Comment removed
world101010 3 years ago
Part2
19. So [Solomon] smiled, amused at her speech, and said, My Lord, enable me to be grateful for Your favor which You have bestowed upon me and upon my parents and to do righteousness of which You approve. The Holy Qurran the Ant
world101010 3 years ago
I have seen a couple of your videos now, and i'm afraid u shouldn't post these type of childish aswers if u truly want ppl to listen to u... Think three times before u post videos please.. it's embarresing... Peace :)
jaKKrabbiTsLim 3 years ago
People with imaginary friends are stupid. When are they going come out of the dark ages of ridiculous superstitions and get in touch with the natural universe like grown ups. tards. keep up the good work AZs01
markfor 3 years ago
This was a stupid question to begin with. Jesus Christ's sacrifice was the ultimate sacrifice because he took upon himself all the sins and pains of the world (and possibly other worlds), not just because he was beaten and crucified. Besides, the Atonement mainly took place in the garden.
Believe it or not, I care about ants, and once I cried when a grasshopper died.
EverASurprise 3 years ago
If sin is living contrary to God's will, and dying to provide a path to salvation for mankind was God's will for Jesus, how did Jesus take on sin? He only ever did God's will.
Alternatively, if sin is an evil act, what does it even mean to "take on" the sins of the world? It's like saying I had sex to become a virgin. There's no context in which that makes sense.
echthroi9 3 years ago
"If sin is living contrary to God's will..."
Who said this? Where are you getting this definition?
Yes, he did do God's will, and God's will was that he would "take on" the sins of the world, which he did. We don't quite understand how, but we know (or at least I know) that he suffered for each of them, and became guilty of them. (That is why he cried out on the cross "Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani" because God HAD forsaken him, he was guilty.)
EverASurprise 3 years ago
"There's no context in which that makes sense."
Climb out of your finite box and things might become more clear.
EverASurprise 3 years ago
Having sex to attain virginity might become more clear? This is what you are implying. To be guilty of murder, you must kill someone. It is a logical impossibility to be a murderer otherwise. To say Jesus became guilty of every conceivable sin is to throw the idea of guilt out the window.
echthroi9 3 years ago
10ish years of living for Christ, followed by 4ish years of atheism getting various perspectives and definitions from Christians. Note I didn't claim this was the de facto definition for sin, just one possibility, one we've all heard many times.
"we don't quite understand how"
Clearly. This was the meat of my comment.
echthroi9 3 years ago
"10ish years of living for Christ"
I don't believe that in the slightest and I think your definition of sin is ill-founded.
Like I said, HOW Christ took on the sins and pains is something we don't understand. But we really don't need to. We have many, many things to learn, and things will eventually become clear to us.
EverASurprise 3 years ago
Ah. You believe I'm lying, or you believe those who leave Christianity were never actually Christian at all?
echthroi9 3 years ago
Define "Christian".
EverASurprise 3 years ago
One who believes Jesus' teachings given by the Bible and attempts to live accordingly. i.e. believes and professes Jesus is God, repents from sin, and believes in salvation by Jesus' sacrifice.
Define "atheist".
echthroi9 3 years ago
An atheist is one who does not believe in a God or gods.
You can also be an atheist and religious as some Buddhists.
Furthurmore, you can be an atheist and simultaneously an agnostic (which occurs when one acknowledges the possibility of a Deity, but simply not believe it).
ChaosCalligraphy 3 years ago
By that definition, I don't have any problem believing you were a Christian if that is what you say.
ChaosCalligraphy defined "atheist" just fine.
EverASurprise 3 years ago
Trust me. The only way to deal with these clowns is to ignore them. I'm a former Christian myself, so not only do I believe you, but I understand why Christianity turns people into double-minded judgmental know-it-alls.
WolfSyndrome 3 years ago
I know, I know, but I just can't stop myself. Apparently becoming a skeptic had the side effect of becoming argumentative! D:
echthroi9 3 years ago
I'm also pretty curious about what sin really is, since the two definitions I presented are so terribly far off.
echthroi9 3 years ago
Echthroi9 and Wolf and anyone else it applies to, out of curiosity, while I don't doubt either 1 of you were "Christians" (at least by definition), what made you want to be a Christian and thereafter reject being 1?
It's also important to remember that even angels of the most high fell and now represent all that is wrong in the world, so believing in Jesus and just doing what he asks does not mean your any different or doing better then any non-believer. It's more of a way and reason of living.
Viewer2k08 3 years ago
Speaking for myself, I was born into a Pentecostal family, went to church from birth to 20ish. The people I was with the most, my parents, teachers, ministers, etc..the people I was taught to trust, the ones that were nice and happy and convincing to a kid growing up...they all taught me the Bible. The joy I felt at times during service, I was taught was God's presence. The things I learned in service, by reading the Bible, by talking to my parents, and the "revelations" received...
(cont)
echthroi9 3 years ago
...while praying to a God I knew was listening, they seemed to build on each other.
Then when I was a teen I discovered Y!Clubs, some of which were about debating religion...something I hadn't really seen. I learned about group psychology, endorphins, glossolalia research, the major Proofs and rebuttals. And I finally had to begin admitting to myself that everything I've experienced can be explained by natural phenomena.
And it sucked, and I was angsty for a while. But now I have joy again.
echthroi9 3 years ago
When I was little my parents taught me all about God, Jesus, Heaven, and Hell. While eternal life in heaven and "Jesus loves me this I know" were quite appealing, the lesson that stuck with me the most was, "People don't believe in God because they would rather go to Hell than be nice people." In other words, doubting God REALLY means denying his obvious existence. The more I studied the Bible the less sense it made, but I could always satisfy myself with, "There MUST be a good explanation...
WolfSyndrome 3 years ago 2
...for this." You see, I was a straight A student. My critical thinking skills were solid. There was no reading assignment I couldn't handle. The Bible was the only book that had plotlines I couldn't understand, like Job for example. Why would God let Satan kill and torture people to test someone's loyalty? It sounded hideous, but since God did it I had no choice but to assume He had a good reason for it. To make a long story short, I was finally convinced that people, NOT God, wrote the Bible..
WolfSyndrome 3 years ago 2
...after I studied the history of Christianity, the formation of the Bible, the Theory of Evolution(which I had ignored up to this point), and the so-called messianic prophecies. Basically, I learned there's a REASON intellectuals tend to be atheists. Religion is a cold-hearted, cleverly devised, brainwashing SCAM! It sickens me. T_T
Believe it or not, as a non-believer I am MORE mentally stable, morally correct, and at peace than I've ever been!
WolfSyndrome 3 years ago 2
P.S. Thanks for asking us! ^_^ Most Christians just assume we are bad people and never let us state our case. EverASurprise is a perfect example of this.
WolfSyndrome 3 years ago 2
"Most Christians just assume we are bad people and never let us state our case. EverASurprise is a perfect example of this."
Excuse you. I NEVER assumed you or any other atheist was a bad person nor do I believe I said anything to indicate this. You've spoken out of line. Also, I never didn't let you state your case.
EverASurprise 3 years ago
("10ish years of living for Christ" )
(I don't believe that in the slightest...)
Here is where you said something to indicate this. You automatically assumed echthroi9 was lying. That's called being judgemental.
WolfSyndrome 3 years ago
You said "Most Christians just assume we are bad people and never let us state our case." Me saying that I didn't believe so-and-so lived for Christ for tenish years DOES NOT indicate that I think he/she is a bad person. You need to be more careful with what you say.
"You automatically assumed echthroi9 was lying."
You have NO IDEA whether or not I "automatically" came to that conclusion!! I don't believe he/she is lying, I believe they are mistaken.
You need to read more carefully and THINK
EverASurprise 3 years ago
before you post.
To be quite frank, you are coming across very foolish.
EverASurprise 3 years ago
Yeah, you're right. Accusing someone of lying and thinking someone is a bad person are two TOTALLY different things. After all, only NICE people lie. Right? You make no sense.
WolfSyndrome 3 years ago
"Yeah, you're right. Accusing someone of lying and thinking someone is a bad person are two TOTALLY different things. After all, only NICE people lie. Right?"
Oh please! I never said ech. lied. I said I believed they were mistaken. Besides, telling a lie doesn't make you a "bad person".
Get it together, man. Stop putting words in others' mouths.
EverASurprise 3 years ago
I'm going to stop b*tching at you, but I WILL try to explain to you why people take offense to phrases like "I don't believe that in the slightest..."
Imagine if you told someone YOU were a Christian and they said they didn't believe you "in the slightest", would you not take offense to that? Then you said,
"...and I think your definition of sin is ill-founded."
echthroi9's definition was, "...sin is an evil act..."
That's NOT what sin means?! o_0;
WolfSyndrome 3 years ago
"Imagine if you told someone YOU were a Christian and they said they didn't believe you "in the slightest", would you not take offense to that?"
No, I wouldn't. I would try to understand why they did not believe me, and then try to remedy that problem.
Do you not know what "ill-founded" means? It doesn't mean the whatever is wrong, it means it is founded on something weak or illogical. I didn't say echs. definition was wrong, I said it was ILL-FOUNDED. How do you not understand that?
EverASurprise 3 years ago
So ech's definition was RIGHT and ILL-FOUNDED at the same time? Ooookay. 0_0; How was it ill-founded?
WolfSyndrome 3 years ago
"So ech's definition was RIGHT and ILL-FOUNDED at the same time?"
Do you not understand that this is possible?
I believe it was ill-founded because I doubt ech. really understood the scriptures, and if you don't understand the scriptures you won't understand these things...
EverASurprise 3 years ago
If echthroi9 didn't understand the scriptures then they would not have been RIGHT. Why? Because the scriptures are where you get the definition of sin from! If they didn't understand what they read then they wouldn't be right about what it said. Take your own advice...
"THINK before you post.
To be quite frank, you are coming across very foolish."
WolfSyndrome 3 years ago
"If echthroi9 didn't understand the scriptures..."
Oh my goodness I really don't understand how you don't get this.
I'm sorry, I just don't have the capacity and patience to further explain.
It's no use anyway... I don't think you'd ever understand...
:(
EverASurprise 3 years ago
You're right. I'd never understand. I'm too stupid. Oh well, at least I'm happy with my life.
WolfSyndrome 3 years ago
"You're right. I'd never understand. I'm too stupid. Oh well, at least I'm happy with my life."
Whatever, it's your life. Do what you please. :)
EverASurprise 3 years ago
Thanks for the honest and courteous responses to the both of you. From my side although I am Christian, I've only been to Church a few times since I can remember which is sadly due to the corruption and misunderstandings that run through so many of them. However like most people who grow up learning of God I was still had lots of things I learned that seemed to contradict themselves through the bible and make God seem somewhat evil and just didn't set right with me. The difference and one.....
Viewer2k08 3 years ago
of the saddest things that occurs with most people) is that I didn't abandon God, instead, as I got older I held onto what my father taught me, wanting to believe him and more importantly believe in God and find the truth. So because I did not reject God because of the false things I heard and my own misunderstandings, once I turned 16 I decided to "seek God" and the truth (at least as close as I could get to it) and it led me to a great study that my father had left behind and it taught me...
Viewer2k08 3 years ago
so many great things that literally filled me with joy, 1 of them being a much better perspective or "truth" about the word/place "Hell". The most important thing it had taught me though was that I could no longer believe in things word for word without going in and researching them and getting a better and more thorough perspective on what is being said. I know so many more things now then I had just from reading the bible front to back and I wish more people would try and really understand...
Viewer2k08 3 years ago
God and at least try to understand the truth the best they can before giving up and agreeing with some other side or relying on "proof" and "evidence". Both sides fight back and forth all the time yet to me I believe both are (possibly) 1 and the same for instance; The Big Bang, Evolution and maybe even Dinosaurs. Religious ppl shouldn't expect the bible to be all the truth to the world and vis-versa from non-religious ppl especially since they don't ultimately matter in your D2D life.
Viewer2k08 3 years ago
I sum everything up this way:
The answer to EVERY question:
A. conclusion 1
B. conclusion 2
C. not enough info. to draw conclusion
The problem is some people aren't satisfied with answering "C" when it's the only honest answer. I call this the root of all evil.
WolfSyndrome 3 years ago
That's a very good thing to go with to a certain extent I would have to agree. My only differ of opinion would be when the question has to do with faith or somethings as such because not everything requires hard core facts or proof down to the smallest detail before you can accept or believe in it/them, like trust for example.
Viewer2k08 3 years ago
"I'm also pretty curious about what sin really is"
Simply put...SIN is rebellion to God and HIS WILL for your life. The act of claiming "There is no god" (Psalm 14:1) is SIN. The act of choosing one's own marriage partner is SIN. The act of choosing homosexuality is SIN.
bornagain001 3 years ago
Oh, a combination of 'living contrary to god's will' and 'committing evil acts'. Well, I posited both of those definitions, and EverASurprise scoffed at the idea that either of those were sin. So either you're wrong, she's wrong, or you're both wrong. Since apparently you're both Christians...next time get the story straight before talking to an atheist? :)
echthroi9 3 years ago 2
"So either you're wrong, she's wrong, or you're both wrong. Since apparently you're both Christians...next time get the story straight before talking to an atheist? :)"
EverASurprise is a MORMON and will have differing views from a Christian.
bornagain001 3 years ago
That's the difference between personal truth and ACTUAL truth. Personal truth varies CONSTANTLY while actual truth stays the same. For instance, my cat will ALWAYS be a cat no matter who's looking at it. Of course you could argue that with a bullshit argument for the sake of being argumentative...but, for your sake, don't.
WolfSyndrome 3 years ago
"That's the difference between personal truth and ACTUAL truth."
Truth is truth. "Personal truth" isn't truth unless it's actually TRUTH. Therefore, there is no difference between "personal truth" and "actual truth" - they are both truth. Hence the word truth in both of them.
EverASurprise 3 years ago
Answer this then. Are Mormon teachings more TRUE than Catholic, Protestant, Jehova's Witnesses, or Pentecostal teachings? Who's "truth" is THE truth? Why do they vary? How can you tell which one is right?
WolfSyndrome 3 years ago
There is some truth twisted in Catholic, Protestant, JW's, and Pentecostal.
"Who's "truth" is THE truth?"
Okay, the problem that I see is you are taking what everyone believes to be true, and calling it "truth". Just because it is believed and followed doesn't make it true. One person might believe in a "truth" and that can be "truth" to them, but if it isn't true than it should never even be called "truth". One person's truth, if not true, is just a belief.
EverASurprise 3 years ago
"How can you tell which one is right?"
I believe in the Spirit of Revelation. I believe that if you are sincere about knowing, and in His time, God will tell you what is true.
EverASurprise 3 years ago
I used to believe the same thing until God led me to solve the problem of whose "truth" is THE truth by doing some serious research. My findings were that not only was MY "truth" not THE truth, but no one else had THE truth either.
So, basically, God telling me to search for the truth is the reason I have no choice but to not believe in Him anymore.
WolfSyndrome 3 years ago
"I used to believe the same thing until God led me to solve the problem..."
Now c'mon. That's just stupid and you know it.
EverASurprise 3 years ago
No, it just requires more details to make sense. So here's what else you need to know. That "Spirit of Revelation" doctrine was taught to me by parents. When it came to understanding scripture, strangely enough, EVERYONE gets a DIFFERENT revelation...it didn't take me long to realize that that's the REAL reason why churches break up. Not even my parents could stop fighting over whose TRUTH was TRUE!
Conclusion#1: the Holy Spirit is a silly prankster
Conclusion #2: Holy Spirit = imaginary
WolfSyndrome 3 years ago
"That "Spirit of Revelation" doctrine was taught to me by parents..."
You were probably brought up by confused, apostate parents. It's understandable.
I'm very sorry.
EverASurprise 3 years ago
LOL! ^_^
WolfSyndrome 3 years ago 2
Mormonism is a denomination of Christianity. Mormons ARE Christians, just like Catholics.
echthroi9 3 years ago
"Mormonism is a denomination of Christianity. Mormons ARE Christians, just like Catholics."
That is true, but different denominations have different beliefs. You have to keep that in mind.
EverASurprise 3 years ago
"EverASurprise is a MORMON and will have differing views from a Christian."
This is very true, although I would add the word mainstream in front of Christian.
EverASurprise 3 years ago
"EverASurprise scoffed at the idea that either of those were sin."
What is WRONG with you people? I did no such thing!
EverASurprise 3 years ago
Hmm, I don't think I could properly explain what sin is in a YouTube comment.
EverASurprise 3 years ago
lol, "meat," sounds juicy. o.O
ChaosCalligraphy 3 years ago
I used to be Christian and I can tell you, this argument is useless!
CHRISTIAN APOLOGETIC
"You see, Jesus' death is a magical sacrifice pleasing to the LORD. He cares about us but he needs magical sacrifices...why?...because he does! The LORD works in mysterious ways! Who are WE to question the judgment of the all powerful GOD! Might makes right! Yadayadyadayada, brainwashing until you either convert or go insane, destruction of civilization as we know it. But it's all about LOVE! :)"
THE END
WolfSyndrome 3 years ago
Whoever says this obviously does not understand much (if anything) about Jesus Christ's sacrifice.
EverASurprise 3 years ago
Great video again ^^ I'm curious to know what was the intro tune there. Thanks =)
djzapz 3 years ago