I am going to have to take this performance with a huge pinch of salt due to the fact that EPO was totally undetectable and there was zero chance of being caught. Now that testing has improved somewhat no one can get even close.
@7agneskickingbird7 Well you also have to consider that there are few people really dominating the scene, who are willing to go for this sort of time/ pace. When there is (i.e. Rudisha in the 800m), they might have a good attempt. With that in mind, Daniel Komen was one of the exceptional talents of the late 90's; his career was very short, but had astonishing landmarks.
@YiftertheShifter1 Of course I considered that as well. I just don't think that is was a coincidence that right around 2005 times slowed down. 3:29-30 is now a world leading time again. Some exceptional talents like Geb and Bekele (both managed by Hermens, but that's a can of worms for another day) can't get within 5 seconds. I just have a hard time believing that a guy like Komen wasn't EPO when it was totally undectable and could dramatically enhance your performance and get you lots of money.
@7agneskickingbird7 Yes, it does raise many questions, but you also have to consider that those who set the standards in the '90s pretty much all retired/ moved on at around 2005 (i.e. Guerrouj retires; Geb moves to the roads, but sets more WRs there; Lagat's 1500m abilities decline; Kipketer retires). There are a lot of factors that determine performance in distance running, and EPO/ other drug use could be one of them, though we'll never know for sure.
@YiftertheShifter1 First I would just like to say that I am impressed that you're not so naive anymore compared to one or two years ago. Reminds me a lot of myself when I was a bit younger when I still believed guys like Aouita and Morceli were clean.
I guess the problem I have with that whole era from around 91-05 was the depth all across the board. No names running 3:30 and guys like El G that were able to run 3:27-28 week in week out looking fresh as a daisy seconds after finishing a race.
@YiftertheShifter1 My apologies for not getting back to you sooner. We will never know for sure, which is a shame. I would say that athletes competing today are more clean now then they were about 10-15 years ago. No reason to suspect a guy like Rudisha for now. In an article from a couple of years back, Nick Willis (might have been his dad), said that he wouldn't have been anywhere near good enough to compete for medals back in those days due to so much drug use. Cheers buddy!
"He does have this beautiful, relaxed, balanced action, the arm action almost makes it look as though he's running like a sprinter, but then of course he's moving here at around fifty-seven, fifty-eight seconds a lap pace. But look at the face..."
"We're look at a 57, 57.5 lap there, which is either silly or Komen has asked them to go through particularly quick."
"They've gone through 800 in... Well, you can hear that, 1:56. That is... fast..."
"This is virtually world-record pace for 2000m, never mind about 3000m. It is around 3:50, 3:52 pace for a mile. It is astonishing... It is absolutely staggering..."
"They went through 1200 in 2:55... This is way, way inside any splits that have ever been recorded before at these sorts of stages."
It's too bad about Olympic distances being the standard. Just because it's metric doesn't mean 1500m and 3000m make any sense. 1600m and 3200m are the natural, binary progression after 100, 200, 400, 800. 1600 would have to have a staggered start, but that's no big deal. And they'd be much easier to compare to mile and 2-mile times.
every lap was under a minute. this dude can run a sub 8 minute twoo mile if he wanted 2. plus the first mile a 3: 55. smh aint that a bitch. I CANT DO THAT ONCE LET ALONE KEEP GOING.
omfg i just started with running 3km and i do it in 11:40 but thats my first time and i never did other distances so my goal is like a liitle under 11 minutes
@Traviskula. Yes, without question one of the greatest performances in the history of sport. And not only from Dan Komen on the track... The Cram/Hutchings commentary is also one of the greatest performances of all time. "Well, you can hear... 1:56...that is...fast!" "I hope they haven't killed this off" "A 57.6 lap!" [laughter from Hutchings] 3:53.7 or so at four laps..."I've never seen anything like this..." etc. No indeed you haven't and neither have we.
@KingLiopleurodon Absolutely correct. You know its the monster world record because El Guerrouj, Bekele and Gebresalassie couldn't get close to it and it was within their ranges. Especially Guerrouj and Bekele, the only reason they hadn't beaten it is because it is TOO FAST even for their standards
I was greatly disaqppointed when viewing the recent HBO or Showtime documentary on PEDs, particularly steroids. It came out that Carl Lewis failed at least once (A & B samples) but was given a pass due to 'inadvertent' use. Torri Edwards, Justin Gatlin, and countless others made the same claim to no avail because they were not deemed the top drawing cards of the sport. Your last argument and my own suspisions cause me to wonder why MJ & Kevin Young retired at the pinnacle of their careers.
@Drdajackson Yes, the whole mystery of why it wasn't made public when C. Lewis failed a couple of tests (was it in run up to 84 or 88 Olympics? I can't remember !) is rather disappointing. It was only made public years after he retired, and as such was not picked up much by the general public. I really don't know enough about Young to comment, though I think Michael Johnson (I presume MJ means him?) deserves the benefit of the doubt. He was 33 after all when he retired in 2000.
You can't catch what the lab can't see. The Balco case proved that. So chemists over the world are refining drugs that either circumvent detection or leave the system so fast as to make them undetectable. That said, I think the establishment is wrong by busting "statistical" cheats based on probability. This mindset cost Jon Drummond his place in history in the 2003 worlds 100 meters. No one considered that he had the fastest start in the world. They fell back on the numbers.
One last point about the German and Russian women. The Germans & later the Russians were fanatical about the boost to world image that derives from high stature in athletics (remember the '36 and '80 olympics). I seem to recall East Germany's coaches fessing up to doping female athletes in the '80s. Jarmila Kratochvílová's sub 48 quarters and masculinity are proof enough for me that Europe was less than diligent in drug enforcement. But politics can supercede positive declarations.
@Drdajackson I agree with the vast majority of what you've written. I have no doubt that Flo-Jo was using in the build up to Seoul 88, but there wasn't the same system in place in the US with out of season testing (as far as I'm aware) as there had been in the UK for several years. You also have to differentiate your use of the term "European".
There are the communist nations of E. Europe (Cuba & China still come under this category), in which proven (in case of GDR at least) large scale "state sponsored" doping took place throughout the 70's/80's, then there is the rest of Europe. The use of steroids & other PEDs would have been closely controlled in communist Europe & the benefits gained during months of training.
The doctors would have known exactly when to stop taking so their athletes would pass tests carried out by the IAAF & IOC at the champs. So, the relevant E. European governing bodies would have been complicit in covering up their athletes' use. This is obviously wrong; I was so upset when I had to accept the fact that Koch, my favourite female athlete as a kid, was almost certainly cheating. This has never been the case in the UK.
They were being randomly tested outside of the main championships from 1981.
Now let's look at where the GDR & USSR excelled! Their women generally & male throwers (as well as some technical events) ruled the world in the 70's & early 80's. That would have been largely due to steroid use. How was Slupianek able to throw the shot 22m + while the UK's no. 1 , Judy Oakes, (usually the best outside of Eastern Europe) could only manage 17m?
Because Slupianek's governing body was helping her, and Oakes's was being tested regularly to ensure she wasn't using anything. Why were East german men middle distance runners unable to compete with the likes of Coe, Ovett, Scott, Walker, etc, when their fellow germans were beating everyone? Because the use of steroids has a much reduced effect on events from 800m upwards. This isn't the case for women, however, as Kratochvilova's physique (as you point out) testifies.
It is a well documented fact that women respond far more % wise from steroid use. The likes of Coe, Ovett, Cram, etc would have been tested weekly from the early 80's. Their overall career progression shows none of the tell-tale signs of drug use. Moreover, there was little out there during their era that would have helped. Certainly nothing like EPO, that was available to take at no risk of detection from 1994/95 until 2000.
Some big names in the late 90's appeared from nowhere and had a rapid meteoric rise, followed by an equally rapid decline at an early age. The advances in the world record for distances from 1500m upwards improved at a markedly increased exponential rate to the underlying historical progression projections. That is far more suspicious career path. In the last 4 seasons 3:30 has been broken only 3 times (with no sub 3:29s), 7:30 ten times (4 by Bekele & 2 by his bro), 12:50 once & 26:50 seven.
Regarding Flojo, 10.49 and 21.3 for a woman is absurd. But so is Koch's 47.6 and Kratochvílová's 1:53.28 (Allen Webb ran less than a second faster this summer). So your claim about European testing being in place may be true but it has long been suspected that the Eastern European women were juicing. People had the nerve to jump on the Semenya bandwagon in '08 but do you remember was Kratochvílová' looked like? Very masculine. But they still hold records, indicating looking the other way.
You missed my point. Coe's call for greater athletics circumspection doesn't excluded him from question. Flojo denied all also but her huge jump in times circa 1986-1987, when she was barely world class, to 1988 when she ran faster than many college men makes one go, hmmm. I had a conversation with an olympian friend of mine several years ago when he was becoming discouraged. He said everybody is doing something. It was even revealed that Carl Lewis failed tests and was given a pass.
Even more astounding is that Komen ran back-to-back sub 4 minute miles in his two mile world record. We still laud Bannister but compare the 2 feats. I don't think he cheated and I won't believe it until evidence emerges. Why isn't @deano27671 indicting Coe for running 1:41 thirty years ago? Or Cram or Ovett? One could make a similar doping argument for their performances but why tarnish all their hard work and years of dedication with speculation?
@Drdajackson EVERYBODY from the world's elite in long distances in late 90's was on EPO. That's a matter of common sense, because you can't compete with a drugged athlete if EPO gives you ca. 40 sec. boost in the 10 000 m. The explosion of times in 1995-96 was so evident that it now looks almost funny (I made graphs.) EPO however helped in middle distances as well. Until 1995, no Kenyan was able to break 3:32 in the 1500 m. Six years later, the best Kenyan ran 3:26.
@Drdajackson As for Coe et al.: When athletes started to approach their biological limits during the 80's, more and more artifical methods how to improve performance were implemented. So even if you have technically "clean" athletes today, they still use nitrogen tents or something similar, because they would be otherwise incompetetive with the drug-loaded rivals. I have no information about Britons in the 80's, but the only effective doping method they could then use were blood transfusions.
@Drdajackson@Drdajackson Coe's 1:41 is not so shocking as you think, because the international competition in the 800 m was considerably lower than in the 1500 m. This can be indirectly confirmed even by the lousy development of the 800 m, as well as by the unlikely bunch of ethnicities then competing at this distance. Several years after Coe, Cruz ran 1:41, too, and then several others broke 1:43. The distance stopped developing in 1985, when white half-milers disappeared from track.
9.50 is fast dont worry and keep training. We are talking here of one the greatest world records ever. Although I think Wilsons record is better. It was.
One of the worst and most blatant abusers of the era when there was no test for EPO. To run those sort of splits after looking tired after a 13:02 5000m days earlier, and improving a pb by 18 seconds when 20 (if that was his real age?) is a nonsense.
@YiftertheShifter1 That's the whole point!?? There was NO test to detect EPO use in anyone from it's emergence in 95 to late 2000, regardless of their nationality. Don't try and make this a racial issue. If someone from Greece or France or wherever, ran a 7:20 in 1996 I'd have said the same thing. What did Komen do after 2000?
Listen to what the commentators are saying and use your brain to deduce the subtext!
@deano27671 First, mind your attitude. Second, why haven't any Kenyans been caught since the introduction of EPO testing? I doubt that they "suddenly decided to stop" right after the intro to the test. You seem to confuse Kenyans' ability to run extraordinary times at young ages, then promptly "disappear" from the scene as something malicious rather than an issue of precocious talent and/or burnout.
@YiftertheShifter1 I guess it's easy for a kid like yourself to stay in denial. It's a commonly held belief by many in the athletics community (not just me) that Komen was on the juice; something which you are clearly unaware of.
Pamela Chepchumba got a 2 year ban testing positive for EPO at the world X country champs in March 2003; Bernard Lagat's A sample tested positive in 2003 & got off with a negative B test. EPO is out of your system within 2/ 3 days. Only an idiot would get caught.
Well, until you get more than "belief" as proof, that WR stays at 7:20.67. The fact that there was no EPO test before 2000 is NOT proof that Komen was on juice. If so many of you in the athletics community were so adamant about this, then go to the IAAF or send them a letter with all the evidence you have. Tell me when you get a response.
If Pamela C. is the only one (out of Kenya's enormous powerhouse) that you can name, then I rest my case.
@YiftertheShifter1 Grow up! Are you always so contrary with your peers? You told me to name a Kenyan who tested positive after 2000 and I named you 2. Then you say that this proves your case!? Do you think anyone knows for sure who has cheated? Both Marion Jones & A. Pettigrew (RIP) admitted to using EPO after 2000 and they never got caught. And they were US sprinters!! Probably the most tested and scrutinised group of athletes.
There's nothing wrong with your age, but what do you expect when you come on here with a chip on your shoulder questioning my OPINIONS. I was watching athletics, reading AW, compiling stats before you were even born. When I was your age I had respect for people who were older than me. You don't have to agree with them, but there are ways and means of discussing things without being rude. What really pisses me off is the implication that I am questioning Kenyan athletes.
I wasn't being rude; I only asked a question and you came off with such an attitude problem. You may be older than me, but I don't take disrespect lightly even if you were 100. You say there's nothing wrong with my age, yet you use it against me in all conversations. You tell me to grow up, but you're throwing temper tantrums over a simple question. Quit being a hypocrite!
@YiftertheShifter1 You are too immature to have an in depth discussion with. There was no attitude in my initial response to you, just surprise that you couldn't pick up on the obvious incredulity in Cram's & Hutchings' commentary. I wasn't rude until after your "mind your attitude" remark. I also remember you from the past, with your whole racial agenda. I never mentioned Komen was Kenyan, yet you dwell on that fact!? Your initial question was just a ruse for snide little remarks.
@deano27671 No, I am not too immature, but I sense that you are one person who can never be reasoned with. So, here are my last refutations. To you, incredulity = too good to be true. When is a commentator not incredulous when he sees an athlete far ahead of WR splits? Geb's 1995 5K comes to mind? And if anyone has a racial/ nationalistic agenda, it's you, which is why you discredit almost any and all runners not born in the UK/ other English speaking countries. I defend athletes, not races.
@YiftertheShifter1 Not true. I am very anti Dwain Chambers and Carl Myerscough representing the UK because of their positive tests. Likewise, when I met Linford Christie in person I asked him directly about his + test results. You still seem to miss the point (and I'm not giving you attitude when I say this). I am suspicious of several performances in the late 90's when the WR's jumped exponentially. That is when EPO was around and there was no test.
I can't prove anything, but it's within my rights to be suspicious. There were NO Uk athletes any good at this time, and when we did have decent middle distance runners there wasn't EPO around. Some of the runners with these amazing performances in the late 90's happened to be African, but there are many"Western" white athletes who I suspect as well.
These suspicions are not plucked from thin air, but based on years of conversations with other people in the know and reading lots from various sources. I'm not asking you to believe my opinions, that's fine, but you should respect that other people will have different views. I probably know Steve Cram's general views on EPO and its use more than you (again, I'm not being patronising), as I read his columns and watch him a lot on the BBC here in the UK (I notice you live in the US).
He of course cannot come out and make a claim, but he has hinted at lots of things over the years. With regards to Kipketer, I wasn't the one who made the story about overdose. I have no idea if he used EPO. I'd like to think he didn't.
With regards to your other question concerning EPO, yes they do test medalists at major Champs. At the major meets they would test a WR performance, but other than that I'm pretty sure it's random who else they test.
The lesser the meet the less testing would be carried out. As I said, traces of EPO can be out of your system within about 3 days, but that doesn't mean the benefit from it's use has worn off. The main benefit of EPO would be in the off season, during intense periods of training. By using it then, it allows athletes to train harder, for longer and with less recovery time. It's a bit like doing a moth's altitude training, the benefits of which can last several weeks.
A small dose of EPO in season can rejuvinate the athlete further. As far as I'm aware, the IAAF carry out random (don't know how often) testing on athletes from all nations. However, the majority of testing is done by each nation's federation. Not all nations carry out "out of competition" testing, let alone "out of season" testing. The Jamaicans, for example didn't up to last year (not sure if that's changed since!?).
UK athletes have to be available for testing every day of the year, and must disclose their whereabouts for 1 hour every day. The majority of UK athletes train in the UK, so it's easy to test them. If you have a poor federation whose athletes train all over Europe and the US, then their athletes aren't going to get tested as much.
I think the US & most of Europe now adopt the same system as the UK, who, incidentally, were one of the first (if not the first) countries to carry out "out of competition" testing on their athletes in the early 80's (81 I believe) & "out of season" testing in 1985. The IAAF did not carry out the same "off season" screening until 1989. I don't claim any victory, or the final word. I'm sure we could have some good discussions without reverting to sarcasm or personal jibes. It's ok to disagree.
@deano27671 As much as I admired Coe, Ovett, and Cram, I notice they are glaringly absent from your accusations. You pick on Africans to the exclusion of Europeans. The UK athletes ruled in pre-testing days. Now, all of a sudden, they can't even compete with Americans. You don't think that's just a little suspicious & casts even a small shadow on Coe et al? With testing in, North & East Africans still dominate. Altitude training explains the Kenyans. What expains UK's past greatness?
@Drdajackson It is a nonsense to say that there was no testing in the 70's & 80's. Besides there being tests for Olympic & European medallists and anyone who broke a WR, the UK was one of the first countries (long before the IAAF) to introduce random out of competition testing in 1981. By 1985 they were also conducting random "out of season" testing for all their elite athletes. The IAAF didn't introduce this until 1989, hence why Flo-Jo retired in 1988.
Coe himself was the first athlete to address the IOC congress in 81 calling for a lifetime ban for anyone caught taking PEDs. Moreover, he commissioned a paper, in conjunction with Lord Moynihan, during his time as President of the Sports Council to ban blood doping in 1986, when he was still competing.
In addition, there really weren't any drugs that could be used by middle distance athletes during the early 80's; the drugs du jour were steroids, which were useful in power events (sprints & throws) and more potent in women. I do not suspect just "Africans", as you claim, but rather a group of athletes from a variety of nationalities from the period 95- 2001, when there was a specific drug, EPO.
This was beneficial to endurance based athletes (middle & long distance), and for which there was NO test whatsoever. It just so happened that many of the top athletes in this era were African. There was ZERO chance of them getting caught. That was not the situation prior to that period.
Since 2001 the testing for EPO has been shown to be unreliable at best, with various false positives (e. g Lagat) and people not getting caught despite admitting to its use post 2000 Olympics, when a test was first used; e.g Marion Jones & Antonio Pettigrew. Neither of those are Africans! We also had the case of Ramzi getting caught in 2008, even though anyone with any nouse about the sport knew he was on something from 2005 when he won double gold.
Now we have the situation where they can keep samples for years (only intro in 2008) and they have more sensitive tests which can detect subtle changes in oxygen absorption. This came in around 2006, round about the time when the performances (times) in the 1500 and above distances, became slower, returning to pre 1994 levels. For many years now, UK athletes have had to declare their whereabouts every day of the year in order to be tested.
Some poorer Athletic federations, like in Africa and Jamaica, do not have out of season procedures even now! There is seldom smoke without fire; in 1997 Komen tested positive for excessive levels of caffeine (then on the banned list), & was suspended. He later was reinstated after it was claimed he had a genetic defect!! Not long after his form dropped considerably. By 2001 & the EPO test he was running 7:43 for 3k & outside 13 mins for 5000m. He was only 25. Coe ran 1:43 at 33 in 89.
@Drdajackson "The UK athletes ruled in pre-testing days. Now, all of a sudden, they can't even compete with Americans. You don't think that's just a little suspicious & casts even a small shadow on Coe et al?"
Even if Coe et al. used blood transfusions, I don't know, how it could be detected with the then primitive level of testing. The first tests on blood transfusions (from other donors) were introduced in 1988, but athletes in all endurance sports apparently doped happily until 2000.
@centrum99 I'm sure I've followed your comments on Lets Run. While I agree with your general thrust that the great "jump forward" in middle & long distance times from the mid 90's was down to EPO, and that from the late 80's some white (European & US) athletes left the sport for more lucrative ones; especially football; I think you are way off the mark concerning the British middle distance runners of the 80's. Where did you get the idea that "the UK athletes ruled in pre-testing days"?
There were no tests in the 60's, testing was introduced at major champs in the 70's, before the emergence of Ovett. All of Coe & Ovett's WR performances would have been subject to drug testing. Moreover, while the IAAF didn't introduce random out of season testing until 1989, UK athletics were one of the first countries to introduce out of competition testing for their elite athletes in 1981 & random out of season testing in 1985. inaccurate.
Coe was tested over 200 times (quoted in recent Times interview) during his career, so to suggest he competed in "pre-testing days" is wildly inaccurate. He was probably the most tested athlete in the 80's. He was also the first athlete, along with ED Moses, to call for a lifetime ban for all athletes caught doping when addressing the 1981 IOC Congress. It was also his report with Moynihan in 86 that led the way for blood doping to be banned.
@deano27671 I am aware of the fact that British athletics set up out-of-competition testing in 1985. But to be objective, I want to rule out the possibility that the sudden disappearance of white runners could have been influenced by stricter anti-doping rules in late 80's. But no mysterious drug from that time comes to my mind. To the contrary, the deep lack of participation is further indirectly confirmed by the fact that the main EPO abusers in late 90's were Africans.
@deano27671 If the results of white runners went down due to out-of-competition testing, you would expect that there would be flocks of frustrated white guys impatiently awaiting the EPO arrival, and that they would quickly returned on the mid-80's level or progressed even further. Yet nothing of this sort happened. The annual stats of mid 90's were flooded by Africans, and only in late 90's you started to see some Spaniards and Portuguese with unlikely improvements (e.g. Cacho).
@centrum99 I never claimed that European & US athletes left due to more stringent testing. It was a socio/economic phenomenon. I teach kids, and none want to be athletes, they all want to be footballers or cricketers. Thus they did not want to flock back to the sport in the mid-90's. I actually agree with much of what you say. Cacho is a case in point. He was never really better than a 3:31/3:32 runner, certainly not as good as Ovett, Coe & Cram, yet he comes out and runs a 3:28 in 97?
@centrum99 Really!? Sounds very impressive. To be honest I'm not very familiar with VO2 max capabilities. I've read 2 different figures for Coe; one at 82 ml/kg.min and another of "over 90 with a sustained heart rate of 250 bpm". So, not sure which is the true figure. He also had a resting pulse rate of 27 when wired up in a sleep tank at Loughborough University. I have the site addresses if you want them. What would you say is the resting pulse rate &VO2 max of the likes of Bekele?
@deano27671 That's a question! I don't know. It could be perhaps calculated from the athlete's body weight. I only know that the best Kenyan measured by Danish scientists before 1995 had VO2 max. 85,5 ml/kg.min.
"With testing in, North & East Africans still dominate. "
Because their competition disappeared from track 25 years ago. Check the times! In reality, there was no "African domination" in late 80's. Africans were simply left on track alone, because their white rivals had disappeared almost overnight around 1985. The funniest thing is that during the African "reign" in middle distances between 1986-1995, the times REGRESSED and then STAGNATED for the whole decade.
@centrum99 If you still didn't get it, I will explain it in detail: Modern athletics became a Third World sport with pitiful financial incentives that can't attract the best talent from the industrialized world. In fact, most events are now in the state of decay and the performances have been slowly declining during the last 10-15 years - not too surprisingly, mainly in events traditionally dominated by whites (e.g. pole vault, javelin, high jump, decathlon).
@Drdajackson You clearly haven't read all my comments. I am suspicious of most of the top athletes of the late 90s/early 00's, due to the absence of any EPO test and then a very unreliable one. There were several Europeans whose results are suspect to me, namely Cacho, Baala, Kennedy, Baumann, etc. However, the events were dominated by East Africans by this point, and to dismiss the idea that at least some of these were not taking an undetected PED is naive.
@Drdajackson You said, "With testing in, North & East Africans still dominate. " Do you really believe that the Kenyan and Ethiopian Athletic federations are testing their athletes on a weekly basis, scattered as they are all over the World? The IAAF will carry out some testing during the year, but most of the tests athletes have to submit to in Europe are carried out by the national athletic federations. Many countries in Africa and Jamaica do not carry out the same level of testing if at all.
@deano27671 "Some of the runners with these amazing performances in the late 90's happened to be African, but there are many"Western" white athletes who I suspect as well. "
EPO was mainly a business of Morocco, Algeria, Kenya, Ethiopia, Spain and Portugal.
Stating, point-blank, that Komen was, "one of the most blatant users of the era" sounds more like stating opinion based on heresay than purely opinion. Like I said, I challenge you to send a letter to the IAAF to revoke his records and take away his WC gold/ other awards. If I am "pissing you off," well I'm sorry, but careful before turning a little question into a big, unnessary debate that will leave you more hot-headed than before.
@deano27671 Like I said, I rest my case. If you are so convinced that Daniel Komen used EPO, go tell the IAAF. And I restate my question: how many Kenyans DO YOU KNOW have used EPO? You didn't answer the question in the first post, so likely you did research in the meantime; Bernard Lagat doesn't count, because his 'B' sample was negative, and I doubt you were familiar with the name/ feats of a Pamela Chepchumba. In short: no big Kenyan names have been caught using EPO, 1968-2010.
@YiftertheShifter1 What are you getting at? I don't know any Kenyan athletes PERSONALLY. Tell me that's not what you meant!? I know of Kenyan athletes that have tested positive for EPO, just like I know others from various countries have tested positive for it. I didn't answer it in my first response to you because it was irrelevant that he was Kenyan. Since when does someone have to answer a question from you anyway? I take it you're used to getting what you want when you want it.
Obviously I'm not saying that. I'm saying, the top Kenyans, whose names you hear often in athletics news, have you heard of that has tested positive? I half-expected you to give me the Wilson Kipketer (Kenyan Dane) "doped, then overdose" story that would seem very foolish now that his record was removed.
What I am trying to get at is the assertion that I've seen you make that the records that were set 1995-2000 are impossible to reach by today's athletes as a result of EPO testing than any talent that the record-setters possessed. Kenyans have a good reputation for lots of runners, loads of talent, and very, very few dopers. Many Kenyan runners, like Komen, are very, very precocious, but you mistook his burnout for "blatant EPO use."
@YiftertheShifter1 "Kenyans have a good reputation for lots of runners, loads of talent, and very, very few dopers."
Yet their times exploded in the same year like in other doping nations, and decreased in the same years, when stricter anti-doping measurements were undertaken.
@deano27671 Well, when I ask a question and I get in return someone yelling at me, then I suspect that person being evasive. In fact, I think you ignored my question completely, and only considered it afterwards.
@YiftertheShifter1 Don't presume to know that I wasn't aware of Lagat and Chepchumba. That's the sort of remark I was referring to when I mentioned "lack of respect". You then back track and say that no BIG Kenyan names have been caught using EPO, which wasn't your original question. That was "How many Kenyans do you know have taken EPO?" So you ask a question, which was answered, and then change the criteria! LOL.
For your info Chepchumba was a rising star and an athlete of Federico Rosa (you should look him up) who has many other big names in his care. Do you think a young Kenyan girl can afford to buy EPO on her own? It's the agents that control it. Do you think that they would only use it on one of their lesser known athletes and not on any others? As I said before, it's only when athletes are stupid or careless that they get caught, as it's out of the system within 2 days.
Here are some other Kenyans who've tested positive for PEDs since 2000:-
2000: Simon Kemboi - nandrolone
2003: Ambrose Bitok - norandrosterone
2003: Pamela Chepchumba - EPO
2003: Bernard Lagat - EPO (exempted due to "technicality", like Marion Jones several years later)
2005: Susan Chepkemei - Salbutamol (according to a testimony of a Serbian athlete, she had a fridge full of EPO syringes during her stay in USA in 2004)
@deano27671 Gosh, maybe if you'd shown that earlier we could've avoided this dragged out argument. I will concede that Kenyans are not 100% clean, despite their reputation. However, until you send that letter to the IAAF about Komen and I hear from you their response (which I doubt you'll ever do), then I have no reason to continue discussing this with you. You can claim victory of having the last word, but I'm done here.
My second question, then, would be when do they do drug testing? Isn't it the day of a major championship or WR? If so, then how can the drug be used successfully without evading the 2-3 day window for which it can be used in a race, then subsequently EPO leaving the body? I ask out of curiosity, and I'm asking politely; when I don't get a similar response, don't expect me to show you respect, no matter how old or knowledgeable you are.
@deano27671 I'm sure you were aware of Lagat, who was one of the big names, but was cleared, and no definitive proof exists of him taking PEDs. And don't presume to know that I'm not aware of Federico Rosa- now, here's an honest question: have any other of his athletes been caught?
@YiftertheShifter1 I think Komen's 7:58 2 mile is even more astounding. That's why I blasted T&F N. He did what Bannister did in back-to-back miles and still gets no respect because he's not European or American. The right combination of factors eliminates the need for drugs. What @deano27671 is omitting in his argument: the Kenyans have evolved for hundreds or thousands of years at high altitude and running is ingrained in their culture. Komen, Rudisha, & Kipketer emerged from this.
@Drdajackson "The right combination of factors eliminates the need for drugs. What @deano27671 is omitting in his argument: the Kenyans have evolved for hundreds or thousands of years at high altitude and running is ingrained in their culture. "
And the biggest change in their gene pool in the last 50 000 years came in 1995.
@deano27671 You may be 22 years older than me, but seeing as you still worship a man who was active in your teens, I wouldn't be making fun of my age.
@deano27671 Are you just disappointed that yet another Kenyan has surpassed Coe on the all-time list? Heck, Rudisha ran a world record today, and if he tests positive for EPO, then I might start believing what you say. Until then, your theory that all the great middle distance runners of the 1990s used EPO remains unfounded.
I've been studying this to try and improve my 3000m and one thing I've noticed is that the pace seems to be quite stable. I've always thought that you were supposed to increase speed all the way through the run. My personal best is 10.38 from about 6 mounths back. I'm a heavy runner at 90 kg and 187cm. maby trying to set the pace from start to finish will improve my personal best. any thoughts?
Amazing performance! Damned WADA and their anti-EPO test from 2000!!! Track is so boring now and athletes are basically forced to run the same times like 20 years ago.
Hopefully there will be some new substitute for EPO soon and we will enjoy such superhuman times again!
what are you talking about ???????????????? dibaba beat vivian cheruiyot in 3000m befor world cross country she was ok . bekele was beaten by ebuya in endburgh.we won everything because we are best period.
and we are not talking about only best athletes but also about teams.kenya did not sweep only individuals but also team titles,something that ethiopia have never done .if that does not proof to you that we are best nothing will.yifter
Uh, that was most definitely not Ethiopia's strongest team. Bekele was absent, Dibaba had been out for a whole year, and a host of other Ethiopians either were injured, ill, or training for other events.
yes bcause the winner Emily chebet was new.that means even new kenya runners can beat best ethiopians,dont forget amman jordan world champion Florence kiplagat was absence.but kenya went 1 and 2 .beating out tirunesh dibaba
yifter kenyans are best baby.ask me why,they won all gold medals in poland cross country.beating your big healthy big names such as tirunesh dibaba,werkenesh kidane and meselech melkamu to sweep gold and silve and wining taem tile,enough said yifter enough
Yes, I have to agree that the Kenyans superdominated in the World XC, and the Ethiopian challenge crumbled almost instantly. However, that's only one championship, and if you recall back to 2004, it was the Ethiopians who swept 1-2-3 in both the long and short course (see mundial de cross 2004). It's all about consistency: will the best Kenyans always be better than the best Ethiopians?
Ganz klar mit Dopingmittel erzielt.Man sieht ja auch heutzutage wo die untersuchungen stränger sind kommt man bei weitem nicht mehr an diesen record heran.davon bin ich überzeugt.
@starcraftiskool run 4-10km everyday for endurance along with a few 100m sprints for speed and uphill/upstair movements for leg-strength. Do that everyday, and every week or so, time yourself running a 3000 and try to shave 5-10 seconds off each time. if you're really out of shape and you can't even run 4k, jog for 20 minutes everyday first and build up the pace that you go, and then try running in distances rather than time.
this was a great time that's gonna stay in the record book for many years to come,but there was only one person who could have brocken it it's hicham el guerrouj ,el guerrouj ran 7 : 23 in his first and last 3000m ,he could have run under 7:20 if he had put his mind in it but...
Well Komen is the 5th fastest miler ever and Cram who is commentating is 4th fastest I might add. Combine Komens mile ability with his 5000m ability. It was always going to happen. Just a unique athlete.
Well might I add all the greatest 1500m and 5000m runners since have had a great attempt.........but no one could crack it. El G, Bekele and Geb included. What an amazing WR.
Well, we must remember that the pacemakers in this race took him through each lap faster than 60 seconds. When Bekele set his personal best a few years ago the pace was 60 s/lap up to 1800m, with Bekele doing much of the fast running by himself; the 2000m split for Bekele was 4:59.x, compared to 4:53 (2:26 final kilometer to Komen's 2:27).
Obviously Bekele was left with too much to do. For a record like this even the pace maker has to be special. Probably a sub 3.50 miler to take him to 2000m or so. Everybody knows how Komen did it. No excuses now. At the moment Bekele is the only one with chance of this record.
@newromantic888, if they had a robot or a vehicle that had cruise control to force Komen or Bekele all the way, then they would have probably run faster. Of course, the pace makers cannot set the pace all the way because then they would set the world record.
when we beat the best runner it means that we are best in general.well then let as see if Ethiopians will have many great marathon runners like kenya. yes he is the master, but kenyans killed him in 9k this year cross country nuff said.
when we beat the best runner it means that we are best in general.well then let as see if Ethiopians will have many great marathon runners like kenya. yes he is the master, but kenyans killed him in 9k this year cross.
YiftertheShifter1 acts like some authority, but is a Mario player. LMAO
adadogensco 10 hours ago
I am going to have to take this performance with a huge pinch of salt due to the fact that EPO was totally undetectable and there was zero chance of being caught. Now that testing has improved somewhat no one can get even close.
7agneskickingbird7 2 weeks ago
@7agneskickingbird7 Well you also have to consider that there are few people really dominating the scene, who are willing to go for this sort of time/ pace. When there is (i.e. Rudisha in the 800m), they might have a good attempt. With that in mind, Daniel Komen was one of the exceptional talents of the late 90's; his career was very short, but had astonishing landmarks.
YiftertheShifter1 1 week ago
@YiftertheShifter1 Of course I considered that as well. I just don't think that is was a coincidence that right around 2005 times slowed down. 3:29-30 is now a world leading time again. Some exceptional talents like Geb and Bekele (both managed by Hermens, but that's a can of worms for another day) can't get within 5 seconds. I just have a hard time believing that a guy like Komen wasn't EPO when it was totally undectable and could dramatically enhance your performance and get you lots of money.
7agneskickingbird7 1 week ago
@7agneskickingbird7 Yes, it does raise many questions, but you also have to consider that those who set the standards in the '90s pretty much all retired/ moved on at around 2005 (i.e. Guerrouj retires; Geb moves to the roads, but sets more WRs there; Lagat's 1500m abilities decline; Kipketer retires). There are a lot of factors that determine performance in distance running, and EPO/ other drug use could be one of them, though we'll never know for sure.
YiftertheShifter1 1 week ago
@YiftertheShifter1 First I would just like to say that I am impressed that you're not so naive anymore compared to one or two years ago. Reminds me a lot of myself when I was a bit younger when I still believed guys like Aouita and Morceli were clean.
I guess the problem I have with that whole era from around 91-05 was the depth all across the board. No names running 3:30 and guys like El G that were able to run 3:27-28 week in week out looking fresh as a daisy seconds after finishing a race.
7agneskickingbird7 4 days ago
@YiftertheShifter1 My apologies for not getting back to you sooner. We will never know for sure, which is a shame. I would say that athletes competing today are more clean now then they were about 10-15 years ago. No reason to suspect a guy like Rudisha for now. In an article from a couple of years back, Nick Willis (might have been his dad), said that he wouldn't have been anywhere near good enough to compete for medals back in those days due to so much drug use. Cheers buddy!
7agneskickingbird7 4 days ago
The best record on the books..just draw-dropping.
ProfessorChaospHD 3 weeks ago
Those guys are so black lol
kolor505 1 month ago
Here are Komen's splits.
0400 57.5
0800 1:56.63 (59.13)
1000 2:25.89 (59.26)
1400 3:23.55 (57.66)
1800 4:23.46 (59.91)
2200 5:21.83 (58.37)
2600 6:21.58 (59.75)
3000 7:20.67 (59.09)
SunnyKid975 1 month ago 4
Did anyone notice Komen went through 2000m in 4:53 and kept the pace up? Unbelievable !!
I don't believe another runner (EL G, Aouita, Bekele) has come within 4 seconds of this time.
SunnyKid975 1 month ago
he is a great runner and all but
he is the scariest guy i've ever seen. look at his face!!! >.<
AssHoleThunder 1 month ago
"He does have this beautiful, relaxed, balanced action, the arm action almost makes it look as though he's running like a sprinter, but then of course he's moving here at around fifty-seven, fifty-eight seconds a lap pace. But look at the face..."
AddictedToAndrea 1 month ago
"We're look at a 57, 57.5 lap there, which is either silly or Komen has asked them to go through particularly quick."
"They've gone through 800 in... Well, you can hear that, 1:56. That is... fast..."
"This is virtually world-record pace for 2000m, never mind about 3000m. It is around 3:50, 3:52 pace for a mile. It is astonishing... It is absolutely staggering..."
"They went through 1200 in 2:55... This is way, way inside any splits that have ever been recorded before at these sorts of stages."
AddictedToAndrea 1 month ago
It's too bad about Olympic distances being the standard. Just because it's metric doesn't mean 1500m and 3000m make any sense. 1600m and 3200m are the natural, binary progression after 100, 200, 400, 800. 1600 would have to have a staggered start, but that's no big deal. And they'd be much easier to compare to mile and 2-mile times.
kozmon0t 1 month ago
His running style is so eloquent
bijection765 2 months ago
me-0m WR
FE7384 2 months ago
every lap was under a minute. this dude can run a sub 8 minute twoo mile if he wanted 2. plus the first mile a 3: 55. smh aint that a bitch. I CANT DO THAT ONCE LET ALONE KEEP GOING.
meekmillin 3 months ago
@meekmillin Actually he has. He's the only person in history to run back-to-back sub 4-minute miles. Freaking ridiculous.
captainspirou 2 months ago
@captainspirou i actally found tat out like 2 hours later lol
meekmillin 2 months ago
1500m3分40秒を二回て・・・・
日本人はこれを半分やるだけでもしんどいのに・・・・・・・
marines4131yt 3 months ago
おれの自己ベスト10:25
7:20って...
その差でカップラーメンつくれるやんけ！
NAMI4423 3 months ago
3:43 all the white guys in the back lol xD
nickmooreimages 4 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Komen claims its goal is to end breast cancer & to find a cure
Komen website states having a child reduces breast cancer risk
Komen website also states birth control pills raise breast cancer risk up to 30%
Komen directors donates millions to Planned Parenthood - largest abortion provider & supplier of birth control pills in USA
Are you sure Komen wants to end breast cancer?
Hmmm...
Komen directors pay themselves big salaries from donations
Somebody is getting rich from breast cancer
ProLifeEternally 6 months ago
at 3:44 group of black dudes, thennn group of white dudes haa
paigehofstad 7 months ago
@paigehofstad Ha ha ha!
MyMeatYearns4Andrea 5 months ago
Haha White Guys in the back
badfatv3 7 months ago
omfg i just started with running 3km and i do it in 11:40 but thats my first time and i never did other distances so my goal is like a liitle under 11 minutes
MrJordiR 7 months ago
Running is soooo good. You get better and better.
Its so cool to see these guys pushing against the limits of whats possible!
bijection765 8 months ago
3:43 black people run by, then comes the white people lol!
MJ1234765 9 months ago 2
Lookslike a bunch of cops chasing a bunch of black
bmxphenom50 9 months ago
PHEEEEEEnominal.....that's it.
cbr1100xxrules 10 months ago
a 1.56 800m fuck my life...
buerger23 11 months ago 35
@buerger23 is that the world record for 800m?
mrmillion94 7 months ago
@mrmillion94 haha nope its 1:41
grandcam1 6 months ago
@buerger23 Its just unreal... 3000m and he opens with a 1.56 wow
Rogerio34567 5 months ago
@buerger23 ahahahah, that was frickin funny :D
joaorio12 3 months ago
@buerger23 it's absurd!
SokhaM8 2 months ago
@Traviskula. Yes, without question one of the greatest performances in the history of sport. And not only from Dan Komen on the track... The Cram/Hutchings commentary is also one of the greatest performances of all time. "Well, you can hear... 1:56...that is...fast!" "I hope they haven't killed this off" "A 57.6 lap!" [laughter from Hutchings] 3:53.7 or so at four laps..."I've never seen anything like this..." etc. No indeed you haven't and neither have we.
KingLiopleurodon 1 year ago 20
@KingLiopleurodon Absolutely correct. You know its the monster world record because El Guerrouj, Bekele and Gebresalassie couldn't get close to it and it was within their ranges. Especially Guerrouj and Bekele, the only reason they hadn't beaten it is because it is TOO FAST even for their standards
Rogerio34567 8 months ago
This is one of the greatest performances of all time.
Traviskula 1 year ago 6
I was greatly disaqppointed when viewing the recent HBO or Showtime documentary on PEDs, particularly steroids. It came out that Carl Lewis failed at least once (A & B samples) but was given a pass due to 'inadvertent' use. Torri Edwards, Justin Gatlin, and countless others made the same claim to no avail because they were not deemed the top drawing cards of the sport. Your last argument and my own suspisions cause me to wonder why MJ & Kevin Young retired at the pinnacle of their careers.
Drdajackson 1 year ago
@Drdajackson Yes, the whole mystery of why it wasn't made public when C. Lewis failed a couple of tests (was it in run up to 84 or 88 Olympics? I can't remember !) is rather disappointing. It was only made public years after he retired, and as such was not picked up much by the general public. I really don't know enough about Young to comment, though I think Michael Johnson (I presume MJ means him?) deserves the benefit of the doubt. He was 33 after all when he retired in 2000.
deano27671 1 year ago
You can't catch what the lab can't see. The Balco case proved that. So chemists over the world are refining drugs that either circumvent detection or leave the system so fast as to make them undetectable. That said, I think the establishment is wrong by busting "statistical" cheats based on probability. This mindset cost Jon Drummond his place in history in the 2003 worlds 100 meters. No one considered that he had the fastest start in the world. They fell back on the numbers.
Drdajackson 1 year ago
One last point about the German and Russian women. The Germans & later the Russians were fanatical about the boost to world image that derives from high stature in athletics (remember the '36 and '80 olympics). I seem to recall East Germany's coaches fessing up to doping female athletes in the '80s. Jarmila Kratochvílová's sub 48 quarters and masculinity are proof enough for me that Europe was less than diligent in drug enforcement. But politics can supercede positive declarations.
Drdajackson 1 year ago
@Drdajackson I agree with the vast majority of what you've written. I have no doubt that Flo-Jo was using in the build up to Seoul 88, but there wasn't the same system in place in the US with out of season testing (as far as I'm aware) as there had been in the UK for several years. You also have to differentiate your use of the term "European".
deano27671 1 year ago
There are the communist nations of E. Europe (Cuba & China still come under this category), in which proven (in case of GDR at least) large scale "state sponsored" doping took place throughout the 70's/80's, then there is the rest of Europe. The use of steroids & other PEDs would have been closely controlled in communist Europe & the benefits gained during months of training.
deano27671 1 year ago
The doctors would have known exactly when to stop taking so their athletes would pass tests carried out by the IAAF & IOC at the champs. So, the relevant E. European governing bodies would have been complicit in covering up their athletes' use. This is obviously wrong; I was so upset when I had to accept the fact that Koch, my favourite female athlete as a kid, was almost certainly cheating. This has never been the case in the UK.
deano27671 1 year ago
They were being randomly tested outside of the main championships from 1981.
Now let's look at where the GDR & USSR excelled! Their women generally & male throwers (as well as some technical events) ruled the world in the 70's & early 80's. That would have been largely due to steroid use. How was Slupianek able to throw the shot 22m + while the UK's no. 1 , Judy Oakes, (usually the best outside of Eastern Europe) could only manage 17m?
deano27671 1 year ago
Because Slupianek's governing body was helping her, and Oakes's was being tested regularly to ensure she wasn't using anything. Why were East german men middle distance runners unable to compete with the likes of Coe, Ovett, Scott, Walker, etc, when their fellow germans were beating everyone? Because the use of steroids has a much reduced effect on events from 800m upwards. This isn't the case for women, however, as Kratochvilova's physique (as you point out) testifies.
deano27671 1 year ago
It is a well documented fact that women respond far more % wise from steroid use. The likes of Coe, Ovett, Cram, etc would have been tested weekly from the early 80's. Their overall career progression shows none of the tell-tale signs of drug use. Moreover, there was little out there during their era that would have helped. Certainly nothing like EPO, that was available to take at no risk of detection from 1994/95 until 2000.
deano27671 1 year ago
Some big names in the late 90's appeared from nowhere and had a rapid meteoric rise, followed by an equally rapid decline at an early age. The advances in the world record for distances from 1500m upwards improved at a markedly increased exponential rate to the underlying historical progression projections. That is far more suspicious career path. In the last 4 seasons 3:30 has been broken only 3 times (with no sub 3:29s), 7:30 ten times (4 by Bekele & 2 by his bro), 12:50 once & 26:50 seven.
deano27671 1 year ago
Regarding Flojo, 10.49 and 21.3 for a woman is absurd. But so is Koch's 47.6 and Kratochvílová's 1:53.28 (Allen Webb ran less than a second faster this summer). So your claim about European testing being in place may be true but it has long been suspected that the Eastern European women were juicing. People had the nerve to jump on the Semenya bandwagon in '08 but do you remember was Kratochvílová' looked like? Very masculine. But they still hold records, indicating looking the other way.
Drdajackson 1 year ago
You missed my point. Coe's call for greater athletics circumspection doesn't excluded him from question. Flojo denied all also but her huge jump in times circa 1986-1987, when she was barely world class, to 1988 when she ran faster than many college men makes one go, hmmm. I had a conversation with an olympian friend of mine several years ago when he was becoming discouraged. He said everybody is doing something. It was even revealed that Carl Lewis failed tests and was given a pass.
Drdajackson 1 year ago
Even more astounding is that Komen ran back-to-back sub 4 minute miles in his two mile world record. We still laud Bannister but compare the 2 feats. I don't think he cheated and I won't believe it until evidence emerges. Why isn't @deano27671 indicting Coe for running 1:41 thirty years ago? Or Cram or Ovett? One could make a similar doping argument for their performances but why tarnish all their hard work and years of dedication with speculation?
Drdajackson 1 year ago
@Drdajackson EVERYBODY from the world's elite in long distances in late 90's was on EPO. That's a matter of common sense, because you can't compete with a drugged athlete if EPO gives you ca. 40 sec. boost in the 10 000 m. The explosion of times in 1995-96 was so evident that it now looks almost funny (I made graphs.) EPO however helped in middle distances as well. Until 1995, no Kenyan was able to break 3:32 in the 1500 m. Six years later, the best Kenyan ran 3:26.
centrum99 8 months ago
@Drdajackson As for Coe et al.: When athletes started to approach their biological limits during the 80's, more and more artifical methods how to improve performance were implemented. So even if you have technically "clean" athletes today, they still use nitrogen tents or something similar, because they would be otherwise incompetetive with the drug-loaded rivals. I have no information about Britons in the 80's, but the only effective doping method they could then use were blood transfusions.
centrum99 8 months ago
@Drdajackson @Drdajackson Coe's 1:41 is not so shocking as you think, because the international competition in the 800 m was considerably lower than in the 1500 m. This can be indirectly confirmed even by the lousy development of the 800 m, as well as by the unlikely bunch of ethnicities then competing at this distance. Several years after Coe, Cruz ran 1:41, too, and then several others broke 1:43. The distance stopped developing in 1985, when white half-milers disappeared from track.
centrum99 8 months ago
Beat a world record by 4 seconds at 20 years old. That was so good it was haunting.
polarp69 1 year ago
9.50 is fast dont worry and keep training. We are talking here of one the greatest world records ever. Although I think Wilsons record is better. It was.
newromantic888 1 year ago
@newromantic888 you still think that?
nnnNOTORIOUS 1 year ago
that is the greatest WR they all try to beat it from above and below., Komen was special.
newromantic888 1 year ago
One of the worst and most blatant abusers of the era when there was no test for EPO. To run those sort of splits after looking tired after a 13:02 5000m days earlier, and improving a pb by 18 seconds when 20 (if that was his real age?) is a nonsense.
deano27671 1 year ago
@deano27671 How many Kenyans do you know have been caught using EPO?
YiftertheShifter1 1 year ago
@YiftertheShifter1 That's the whole point!?? There was NO test to detect EPO use in anyone from it's emergence in 95 to late 2000, regardless of their nationality. Don't try and make this a racial issue. If someone from Greece or France or wherever, ran a 7:20 in 1996 I'd have said the same thing. What did Komen do after 2000?
Listen to what the commentators are saying and use your brain to deduce the subtext!
deano27671 1 year ago
@deano27671 First, mind your attitude. Second, why haven't any Kenyans been caught since the introduction of EPO testing? I doubt that they "suddenly decided to stop" right after the intro to the test. You seem to confuse Kenyans' ability to run extraordinary times at young ages, then promptly "disappear" from the scene as something malicious rather than an issue of precocious talent and/or burnout.
YiftertheShifter1 1 year ago
@YiftertheShifter1 I guess it's easy for a kid like yourself to stay in denial. It's a commonly held belief by many in the athletics community (not just me) that Komen was on the juice; something which you are clearly unaware of.
Pamela Chepchumba got a 2 year ban testing positive for EPO at the world X country champs in March 2003; Bernard Lagat's A sample tested positive in 2003 & got off with a negative B test. EPO is out of your system within 2/ 3 days. Only an idiot would get caught.
deano27671 1 year ago
Well, until you get more than "belief" as proof, that WR stays at 7:20.67. The fact that there was no EPO test before 2000 is NOT proof that Komen was on juice. If so many of you in the athletics community were so adamant about this, then go to the IAAF or send them a letter with all the evidence you have. Tell me when you get a response.
If Pamela C. is the only one (out of Kenya's enormous powerhouse) that you can name, then I rest my case.
YiftertheShifter1 1 year ago
@YiftertheShifter1 Grow up! Are you always so contrary with your peers? You told me to name a Kenyan who tested positive after 2000 and I named you 2. Then you say that this proves your case!? Do you think anyone knows for sure who has cheated? Both Marion Jones & A. Pettigrew (RIP) admitted to using EPO after 2000 and they never got caught. And they were US sprinters!! Probably the most tested and scrutinised group of athletes.
deano27671 1 year ago
There's nothing wrong with your age, but what do you expect when you come on here with a chip on your shoulder questioning my OPINIONS. I was watching athletics, reading AW, compiling stats before you were even born. When I was your age I had respect for people who were older than me. You don't have to agree with them, but there are ways and means of discussing things without being rude. What really pisses me off is the implication that I am questioning Kenyan athletes.
deano27671 1 year ago
I wasn't being rude; I only asked a question and you came off with such an attitude problem. You may be older than me, but I don't take disrespect lightly even if you were 100. You say there's nothing wrong with my age, yet you use it against me in all conversations. You tell me to grow up, but you're throwing temper tantrums over a simple question. Quit being a hypocrite!
YiftertheShifter1 1 year ago
@YiftertheShifter1 You are too immature to have an in depth discussion with. There was no attitude in my initial response to you, just surprise that you couldn't pick up on the obvious incredulity in Cram's & Hutchings' commentary. I wasn't rude until after your "mind your attitude" remark. I also remember you from the past, with your whole racial agenda. I never mentioned Komen was Kenyan, yet you dwell on that fact!? Your initial question was just a ruse for snide little remarks.
deano27671 1 year ago
@deano27671 No, I am not too immature, but I sense that you are one person who can never be reasoned with. So, here are my last refutations. To you, incredulity = too good to be true. When is a commentator not incredulous when he sees an athlete far ahead of WR splits? Geb's 1995 5K comes to mind? And if anyone has a racial/ nationalistic agenda, it's you, which is why you discredit almost any and all runners not born in the UK/ other English speaking countries. I defend athletes, not races.
YiftertheShifter1 1 year ago
@YiftertheShifter1 Not true. I am very anti Dwain Chambers and Carl Myerscough representing the UK because of their positive tests. Likewise, when I met Linford Christie in person I asked him directly about his + test results. You still seem to miss the point (and I'm not giving you attitude when I say this). I am suspicious of several performances in the late 90's when the WR's jumped exponentially. That is when EPO was around and there was no test.
deano27671 1 year ago
I can't prove anything, but it's within my rights to be suspicious. There were NO Uk athletes any good at this time, and when we did have decent middle distance runners there wasn't EPO around. Some of the runners with these amazing performances in the late 90's happened to be African, but there are many"Western" white athletes who I suspect as well.
deano27671 1 year ago
These suspicions are not plucked from thin air, but based on years of conversations with other people in the know and reading lots from various sources. I'm not asking you to believe my opinions, that's fine, but you should respect that other people will have different views. I probably know Steve Cram's general views on EPO and its use more than you (again, I'm not being patronising), as I read his columns and watch him a lot on the BBC here in the UK (I notice you live in the US).
deano27671 1 year ago
He of course cannot come out and make a claim, but he has hinted at lots of things over the years. With regards to Kipketer, I wasn't the one who made the story about overdose. I have no idea if he used EPO. I'd like to think he didn't.
With regards to your other question concerning EPO, yes they do test medalists at major Champs. At the major meets they would test a WR performance, but other than that I'm pretty sure it's random who else they test.
deano27671 1 year ago
The lesser the meet the less testing would be carried out. As I said, traces of EPO can be out of your system within about 3 days, but that doesn't mean the benefit from it's use has worn off. The main benefit of EPO would be in the off season, during intense periods of training. By using it then, it allows athletes to train harder, for longer and with less recovery time. It's a bit like doing a moth's altitude training, the benefits of which can last several weeks.
deano27671 1 year ago
A small dose of EPO in season can rejuvinate the athlete further. As far as I'm aware, the IAAF carry out random (don't know how often) testing on athletes from all nations. However, the majority of testing is done by each nation's federation. Not all nations carry out "out of competition" testing, let alone "out of season" testing. The Jamaicans, for example didn't up to last year (not sure if that's changed since!?).
deano27671 1 year ago 2
UK athletes have to be available for testing every day of the year, and must disclose their whereabouts for 1 hour every day. The majority of UK athletes train in the UK, so it's easy to test them. If you have a poor federation whose athletes train all over Europe and the US, then their athletes aren't going to get tested as much.
deano27671 1 year ago
I think the US & most of Europe now adopt the same system as the UK, who, incidentally, were one of the first (if not the first) countries to carry out "out of competition" testing on their athletes in the early 80's (81 I believe) & "out of season" testing in 1985. The IAAF did not carry out the same "off season" screening until 1989. I don't claim any victory, or the final word. I'm sure we could have some good discussions without reverting to sarcasm or personal jibes. It's ok to disagree.
deano27671 1 year ago
@deano27671 As much as I admired Coe, Ovett, and Cram, I notice they are glaringly absent from your accusations. You pick on Africans to the exclusion of Europeans. The UK athletes ruled in pre-testing days. Now, all of a sudden, they can't even compete with Americans. You don't think that's just a little suspicious & casts even a small shadow on Coe et al? With testing in, North & East Africans still dominate. Altitude training explains the Kenyans. What expains UK's past greatness?
Drdajackson 1 year ago
@Drdajackson It is a nonsense to say that there was no testing in the 70's & 80's. Besides there being tests for Olympic & European medallists and anyone who broke a WR, the UK was one of the first countries (long before the IAAF) to introduce random out of competition testing in 1981. By 1985 they were also conducting random "out of season" testing for all their elite athletes. The IAAF didn't introduce this until 1989, hence why Flo-Jo retired in 1988.
deano27671 1 year ago
Coe himself was the first athlete to address the IOC congress in 81 calling for a lifetime ban for anyone caught taking PEDs. Moreover, he commissioned a paper, in conjunction with Lord Moynihan, during his time as President of the Sports Council to ban blood doping in 1986, when he was still competing.
deano27671 1 year ago
In addition, there really weren't any drugs that could be used by middle distance athletes during the early 80's; the drugs du jour were steroids, which were useful in power events (sprints & throws) and more potent in women. I do not suspect just "Africans", as you claim, but rather a group of athletes from a variety of nationalities from the period 95- 2001, when there was a specific drug, EPO.
deano27671 1 year ago
This was beneficial to endurance based athletes (middle & long distance), and for which there was NO test whatsoever. It just so happened that many of the top athletes in this era were African. There was ZERO chance of them getting caught. That was not the situation prior to that period.
deano27671 1 year ago
Since 2001 the testing for EPO has been shown to be unreliable at best, with various false positives (e. g Lagat) and people not getting caught despite admitting to its use post 2000 Olympics, when a test was first used; e.g Marion Jones & Antonio Pettigrew. Neither of those are Africans! We also had the case of Ramzi getting caught in 2008, even though anyone with any nouse about the sport knew he was on something from 2005 when he won double gold.
deano27671 1 year ago
Now we have the situation where they can keep samples for years (only intro in 2008) and they have more sensitive tests which can detect subtle changes in oxygen absorption. This came in around 2006, round about the time when the performances (times) in the 1500 and above distances, became slower, returning to pre 1994 levels. For many years now, UK athletes have had to declare their whereabouts every day of the year in order to be tested.
deano27671 1 year ago
Some poorer Athletic federations, like in Africa and Jamaica, do not have out of season procedures even now! There is seldom smoke without fire; in 1997 Komen tested positive for excessive levels of caffeine (then on the banned list), & was suspended. He later was reinstated after it was claimed he had a genetic defect!! Not long after his form dropped considerably. By 2001 & the EPO test he was running 7:43 for 3k & outside 13 mins for 5000m. He was only 25. Coe ran 1:43 at 33 in 89.
deano27671 1 year ago
@Drdajackson "The UK athletes ruled in pre-testing days. Now, all of a sudden, they can't even compete with Americans. You don't think that's just a little suspicious & casts even a small shadow on Coe et al?"
Even if Coe et al. used blood transfusions, I don't know, how it could be detected with the then primitive level of testing. The first tests on blood transfusions (from other donors) were introduced in 1988, but athletes in all endurance sports apparently doped happily until 2000.
centrum99 8 months ago
@centrum99 I'm sure I've followed your comments on Lets Run. While I agree with your general thrust that the great "jump forward" in middle & long distance times from the mid 90's was down to EPO, and that from the late 80's some white (European & US) athletes left the sport for more lucrative ones; especially football; I think you are way off the mark concerning the British middle distance runners of the 80's. Where did you get the idea that "the UK athletes ruled in pre-testing days"?
deano27671 8 months ago
There were no tests in the 60's, testing was introduced at major champs in the 70's, before the emergence of Ovett. All of Coe & Ovett's WR performances would have been subject to drug testing. Moreover, while the IAAF didn't introduce random out of season testing until 1989, UK athletics were one of the first countries to introduce out of competition testing for their elite athletes in 1981 & random out of season testing in 1985. inaccurate.
deano27671 8 months ago
Coe was tested over 200 times (quoted in recent Times interview) during his career, so to suggest he competed in "pre-testing days" is wildly inaccurate. He was probably the most tested athlete in the 80's. He was also the first athlete, along with ED Moses, to call for a lifetime ban for all athletes caught doping when addressing the 1981 IOC Congress. It was also his report with Moynihan in 86 that led the way for blood doping to be banned.
deano27671 8 months ago
@deano27671 I am aware of the fact that British athletics set up out-of-competition testing in 1985. But to be objective, I want to rule out the possibility that the sudden disappearance of white runners could have been influenced by stricter anti-doping rules in late 80's. But no mysterious drug from that time comes to my mind. To the contrary, the deep lack of participation is further indirectly confirmed by the fact that the main EPO abusers in late 90's were Africans.
centrum99 8 months ago
@deano27671 If the results of white runners went down due to out-of-competition testing, you would expect that there would be flocks of frustrated white guys impatiently awaiting the EPO arrival, and that they would quickly returned on the mid-80's level or progressed even further. Yet nothing of this sort happened. The annual stats of mid 90's were flooded by Africans, and only in late 90's you started to see some Spaniards and Portuguese with unlikely improvements (e.g. Cacho).
centrum99 8 months ago
@centrum99 I never claimed that European & US athletes left due to more stringent testing. It was a socio/economic phenomenon. I teach kids, and none want to be athletes, they all want to be footballers or cricketers. Thus they did not want to flock back to the sport in the mid-90's. I actually agree with much of what you say. Cacho is a case in point. He was never really better than a 3:31/3:32 runner, certainly not as good as Ovett, Coe & Cram, yet he comes out and runs a 3:28 in 97?
deano27671 8 months ago
@deano27671 Cacho's VO2 max. was 88 ml/kg.min. Impressive. I guess the "flying Africans" from late 90's had VO2 max. close to horses.
centrum99 8 months ago
@centrum99 Really!? Sounds very impressive. To be honest I'm not very familiar with VO2 max capabilities. I've read 2 different figures for Coe; one at 82 ml/kg.min and another of "over 90 with a sustained heart rate of 250 bpm". So, not sure which is the true figure. He also had a resting pulse rate of 27 when wired up in a sleep tank at Loughborough University. I have the site addresses if you want them. What would you say is the resting pulse rate &VO2 max of the likes of Bekele?
deano27671 8 months ago
@deano27671 That's a question! I don't know. It could be perhaps calculated from the athlete's body weight. I only know that the best Kenyan measured by Danish scientists before 1995 had VO2 max. 85,5 ml/kg.min.
centrum99 8 months ago
"With testing in, North & East Africans still dominate. "
Because their competition disappeared from track 25 years ago. Check the times! In reality, there was no "African domination" in late 80's. Africans were simply left on track alone, because their white rivals had disappeared almost overnight around 1985. The funniest thing is that during the African "reign" in middle distances between 1986-1995, the times REGRESSED and then STAGNATED for the whole decade.
centrum99 8 months ago
@centrum99 If you still didn't get it, I will explain it in detail: Modern athletics became a Third World sport with pitiful financial incentives that can't attract the best talent from the industrialized world. In fact, most events are now in the state of decay and the performances have been slowly declining during the last 10-15 years - not too surprisingly, mainly in events traditionally dominated by whites (e.g. pole vault, javelin, high jump, decathlon).
centrum99 8 months ago
@Drdajackson You clearly haven't read all my comments. I am suspicious of most of the top athletes of the late 90s/early 00's, due to the absence of any EPO test and then a very unreliable one. There were several Europeans whose results are suspect to me, namely Cacho, Baala, Kennedy, Baumann, etc. However, the events were dominated by East Africans by this point, and to dismiss the idea that at least some of these were not taking an undetected PED is naive.
deano27671 8 months ago
@Drdajackson You said, "With testing in, North & East Africans still dominate. " Do you really believe that the Kenyan and Ethiopian Athletic federations are testing their athletes on a weekly basis, scattered as they are all over the World? The IAAF will carry out some testing during the year, but most of the tests athletes have to submit to in Europe are carried out by the national athletic federations. Many countries in Africa and Jamaica do not carry out the same level of testing if at all.
deano27671 8 months ago
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@deano27671 "Some of the runners with these amazing performances in the late 90's happened to be African, but there are many"Western" white athletes who I suspect as well. "
EPO was mainly a business of Morocco, Algeria, Kenya, Ethiopia, Spain and Portugal.
centrum99 8 months ago
Stating, point-blank, that Komen was, "one of the most blatant users of the era" sounds more like stating opinion based on heresay than purely opinion. Like I said, I challenge you to send a letter to the IAAF to revoke his records and take away his WC gold/ other awards. If I am "pissing you off," well I'm sorry, but careful before turning a little question into a big, unnessary debate that will leave you more hot-headed than before.
YiftertheShifter1 1 year ago
@deano27671 Like I said, I rest my case. If you are so convinced that Daniel Komen used EPO, go tell the IAAF. And I restate my question: how many Kenyans DO YOU KNOW have used EPO? You didn't answer the question in the first post, so likely you did research in the meantime; Bernard Lagat doesn't count, because his 'B' sample was negative, and I doubt you were familiar with the name/ feats of a Pamela Chepchumba. In short: no big Kenyan names have been caught using EPO, 1968-2010.
YiftertheShifter1 1 year ago
@YiftertheShifter1 What are you getting at? I don't know any Kenyan athletes PERSONALLY. Tell me that's not what you meant!? I know of Kenyan athletes that have tested positive for EPO, just like I know others from various countries have tested positive for it. I didn't answer it in my first response to you because it was irrelevant that he was Kenyan. Since when does someone have to answer a question from you anyway? I take it you're used to getting what you want when you want it.
deano27671 1 year ago
Obviously I'm not saying that. I'm saying, the top Kenyans, whose names you hear often in athletics news, have you heard of that has tested positive? I half-expected you to give me the Wilson Kipketer (Kenyan Dane) "doped, then overdose" story that would seem very foolish now that his record was removed.
YiftertheShifter1 1 year ago
What I am trying to get at is the assertion that I've seen you make that the records that were set 1995-2000 are impossible to reach by today's athletes as a result of EPO testing than any talent that the record-setters possessed. Kenyans have a good reputation for lots of runners, loads of talent, and very, very few dopers. Many Kenyan runners, like Komen, are very, very precocious, but you mistook his burnout for "blatant EPO use."
YiftertheShifter1 1 year ago
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@YiftertheShifter1 "Kenyans have a good reputation for lots of runners, loads of talent, and very, very few dopers."
Yet their times exploded in the same year like in other doping nations, and decreased in the same years, when stricter anti-doping measurements were undertaken.
centrum99 8 months ago
@deano27671 Well, when I ask a question and I get in return someone yelling at me, then I suspect that person being evasive. In fact, I think you ignored my question completely, and only considered it afterwards.
YiftertheShifter1 1 year ago
@YiftertheShifter1 Don't presume to know that I wasn't aware of Lagat and Chepchumba. That's the sort of remark I was referring to when I mentioned "lack of respect". You then back track and say that no BIG Kenyan names have been caught using EPO, which wasn't your original question. That was "How many Kenyans do you know have taken EPO?" So you ask a question, which was answered, and then change the criteria! LOL.
deano27671 1 year ago
For your info Chepchumba was a rising star and an athlete of Federico Rosa (you should look him up) who has many other big names in his care. Do you think a young Kenyan girl can afford to buy EPO on her own? It's the agents that control it. Do you think that they would only use it on one of their lesser known athletes and not on any others? As I said before, it's only when athletes are stupid or careless that they get caught, as it's out of the system within 2 days.
deano27671 1 year ago
Here are some other Kenyans who've tested positive for PEDs since 2000:-
2000: Simon Kemboi - nandrolone
2003: Ambrose Bitok - norandrosterone
2003: Pamela Chepchumba - EPO
2003: Bernard Lagat - EPO (exempted due to "technicality", like Marion Jones several years later)
2005: Susan Chepkemei - Salbutamol (according to a testimony of a Serbian athlete, she had a fridge full of EPO syringes during her stay in USA in 2004)
2006: Lydia Cheromei - clomiphene
2009: Nicholas Kemboi - EPO possession
deano27671 1 year ago
@deano27671 Gosh, maybe if you'd shown that earlier we could've avoided this dragged out argument. I will concede that Kenyans are not 100% clean, despite their reputation. However, until you send that letter to the IAAF about Komen and I hear from you their response (which I doubt you'll ever do), then I have no reason to continue discussing this with you. You can claim victory of having the last word, but I'm done here.
YiftertheShifter1 1 year ago
My second question, then, would be when do they do drug testing? Isn't it the day of a major championship or WR? If so, then how can the drug be used successfully without evading the 2-3 day window for which it can be used in a race, then subsequently EPO leaving the body? I ask out of curiosity, and I'm asking politely; when I don't get a similar response, don't expect me to show you respect, no matter how old or knowledgeable you are.
YiftertheShifter1 1 year ago
@deano27671 I'm sure you were aware of Lagat, who was one of the big names, but was cleared, and no definitive proof exists of him taking PEDs. And don't presume to know that I'm not aware of Federico Rosa- now, here's an honest question: have any other of his athletes been caught?
YiftertheShifter1 1 year ago
@YiftertheShifter1 I think Komen's 7:58 2 mile is even more astounding. That's why I blasted T&F N. He did what Bannister did in back-to-back miles and still gets no respect because he's not European or American. The right combination of factors eliminates the need for drugs. What @deano27671 is omitting in his argument: the Kenyans have evolved for hundreds or thousands of years at high altitude and running is ingrained in their culture. Komen, Rudisha, & Kipketer emerged from this.
Drdajackson 1 year ago
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@Drdajackson "The right combination of factors eliminates the need for drugs. What @deano27671 is omitting in his argument: the Kenyans have evolved for hundreds or thousands of years at high altitude and running is ingrained in their culture. "
And the biggest change in their gene pool in the last 50 000 years came in 1995.
centrum99 8 months ago
@deano27671 You may be 22 years older than me, but seeing as you still worship a man who was active in your teens, I wouldn't be making fun of my age.
YiftertheShifter1 1 year ago
@deano27671 Are you just disappointed that yet another Kenyan has surpassed Coe on the all-time list? Heck, Rudisha ran a world record today, and if he tests positive for EPO, then I might start believing what you say. Until then, your theory that all the great middle distance runners of the 1990s used EPO remains unfounded.
YiftertheShifter1 1 year ago
unbelievable! perfect form
dagda16 1 year ago
The commentator who isn't steve cram is good, very excited!
bijection765 1 year ago
huge doper
InsaneGoonRules 1 year ago
I've been studying this to try and improve my 3000m and one thing I've noticed is that the pace seems to be quite stable. I've always thought that you were supposed to increase speed all the way through the run. My personal best is 10.38 from about 6 mounths back. I'm a heavy runner at 90 kg and 187cm. maby trying to set the pace from start to finish will improve my personal best. any thoughts?
z0uLess 1 year ago
Amazing performance! Damned WADA and their anti-EPO test from 2000!!! Track is so boring now and athletes are basically forced to run the same times like 20 years ago.
Hopefully there will be some new substitute for EPO soon and we will enjoy such superhuman times again!
centrum99 1 year ago
that means you got my point without bekele you are dead.we wrote history winning all 8 golds you are jelouse go to hell,i mean yifter
redsan305 1 year ago
what are you talking about ???????????????? dibaba beat vivian cheruiyot in 3000m befor world cross country she was ok . bekele was beaten by ebuya in endburgh.we won everything because we are best period.
redsan305 1 year ago
hahaha at about 3:50 there is the pack of kenyans/ethiopians, and then 2-3 seconds later the white dudes come through
Uber400s 1 year ago
Guerrouj never got within 3 seconds, Gebreselassie, Bekele and Morceli never got within 5 seconds, Tergat 8 seconds back! What a record!
International1ify 1 year ago
this guy is my idol i run a 11:34 i wish i was anywhere close to this im so slow i wish i had this guys speed
naneek9986 1 year ago
Man that really is a remarkable run
Rogerio34567 1 year ago
Komen had such an elegant stride.
It seemed like he would fling his knee out hard in order to get a long, long stride.
I think it wouldn't be a bad idea to take note of his technique!
bijection765 1 year ago
my best time is 10.46 and this man can run 400 m (less than a minute) in a 3000 lol incredible
elquemalibros 1 year ago
and we are not talking about only best athletes but also about teams.kenya did not sweep only individuals but also team titles,something that ethiopia have never done .if that does not proof to you that we are best nothing will.yifter
redsan305 1 year ago
beating your best strongest team ever.enough said yifterbaby
redsan305 1 year ago
Uh, that was most definitely not Ethiopia's strongest team. Bekele was absent, Dibaba had been out for a whole year, and a host of other Ethiopians either were injured, ill, or training for other events.
YiftertheShifter1 1 year ago
yes bcause the winner Emily chebet was new.that means even new kenya runners can beat best ethiopians,dont forget amman jordan world champion Florence kiplagat was absence.but kenya went 1 and 2 .beating out tirunesh dibaba
redsan305 1 year ago
yes,because the winner Emily chebet was new.
redsan305 1 year ago
yifter kenyans are best baby.ask me why,they won all gold medals in poland cross country.beating your big healthy big names such as tirunesh dibaba,werkenesh kidane and meselech melkamu to sweep gold and silve and wining taem tile,enough said yifter enough
redsan305 1 year ago
Yes, I have to agree that the Kenyans superdominated in the World XC, and the Ethiopian challenge crumbled almost instantly. However, that's only one championship, and if you recall back to 2004, it was the Ethiopians who swept 1-2-3 in both the long and short course (see mundial de cross 2004). It's all about consistency: will the best Kenyans always be better than the best Ethiopians?
YiftertheShifter1 1 year ago
They just cant beat it
newromantic888 1 year ago
I did run 1000m at that pace.
newromantic888 1 year ago
The unbeatable time. They come from above and below. Komen is .
newromantic888 1 year ago
Ganz klar mit Dopingmittel erzielt.Man sieht ja auch heutzutage wo die untersuchungen stränger sind kommt man bei weitem nicht mehr an diesen record heran.davon bin ich überzeugt.
Fighter0489 1 year ago
this is painful to watch
CTrotter21 1 year ago
bekele said that he was gonna attempt this, he going to need some kind of super race to beat it
wolfdog45 1 year ago
B-E-A-S-T im proud to be a distance runner with the name daniel hahaha
DPL2932 1 year ago
can anyone give me some tips for 3000m training?? im going to focus on it this year for track
starcraftiskool 1 year ago
@starcraftiskool run 4-10km everyday for endurance along with a few 100m sprints for speed and uphill/upstair movements for leg-strength. Do that everyday, and every week or so, time yourself running a 3000 and try to shave 5-10 seconds off each time. if you're really out of shape and you can't even run 4k, jog for 20 minutes everyday first and build up the pace that you go, and then try running in distances rather than time.
vichuit 1 year ago
@vichuit Good Comment. Running Rules!!!!
bijection765 1 year ago
this was a great time that's gonna stay in the record book for many years to come,but there was only one person who could have brocken it it's hicham el guerrouj ,el guerrouj ran 7 : 23 in his first and last 3000m ,he could have run under 7:20 if he had put his mind in it but...
stevenoo1 1 year ago
I ran1.56 for 800m and 2.27 for 1000m. Sorry. Its dam fast.
newromantic888 1 year ago
@newromantic888 2:27 1000 eh? which DI school are you running for?
bodies42099 1 year ago
Sorry I meant Komen was fast. I could not even keep up with him for 600m.
newromantic888 1 year ago
well they just cant get close.............its special alright.
newromantic888 1 year ago
deano
newromantic888 1 year ago
astonishing......really.
newromantic888 1 year ago
Deano that was supreme. Amazing that no one has even gone close. I think he is still the only man to run two miles under 2 mins.
newromantic888 1 year ago
Well Komen is the 5th fastest miler ever and Cram who is commentating is 4th fastest I might add. Combine Komens mile ability with his 5000m ability. It was always going to happen. Just a unique athlete.
newromantic888 1 year ago
Well might I add all the greatest 1500m and 5000m runners since have had a great attempt.........but no one could crack it. El G, Bekele and Geb included. What an amazing WR.
newromantic888 1 year ago
Well, we must remember that the pacemakers in this race took him through each lap faster than 60 seconds. When Bekele set his personal best a few years ago the pace was 60 s/lap up to 1800m, with Bekele doing much of the fast running by himself; the 2000m split for Bekele was 4:59.x, compared to 4:53 (2:26 final kilometer to Komen's 2:27).
YiftertheShifter1 1 year ago
Obviously Bekele was left with too much to do. For a record like this even the pace maker has to be special. Probably a sub 3.50 miler to take him to 2000m or so. Everybody knows how Komen did it. No excuses now. At the moment Bekele is the only one with chance of this record.
newromantic888 1 year ago
@newromantic888, if they had a robot or a vehicle that had cruise control to force Komen or Bekele all the way, then they would have probably run faster. Of course, the pace makers cannot set the pace all the way because then they would set the world record.
chuckmanofgod 1 year ago
Kenya is best at 800m..clearly. The other distances are up for grabs with Ethiopia and Nth Africa.
newromantic888 1 year ago
besides this is komen amazing record lets get the fuck of kenenisa bekele out of it.
mrembo87 2 years ago
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when we beat the best runner it means that we are best in general.well then let as see if Ethiopians will have many great marathon runners like kenya. yes he is the master, but kenyans killed him in 9k this year cross country nuff said.
mrembo87 2 years ago
when we beat the best runner it means that we are best in general.well then let as see if Ethiopians will have many great marathon runners like kenya. yes he is the master, but kenyans killed him in 9k this year cross.
mrembo87 2 years ago
i looks like their sprinting the entire time. unhuman
iltctw 2 years ago