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From: desiringGod
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  • Brother Piper did not vote for Obama strictly because of the abortion issue??? Is that really his only problem with Obama? I wonder how keen Brother Piper really is on American Constitutionalism and civil liberties (as opposed to "civil rights"). Our constitutionally limited republic has become an EMPIRE.... saying that one of the early 1st or 2nd century Judean Church leaders would have wanted to vote for Obama is the equivalent of saying that they were willing servants of the Roman Emperor.

  • I guess American Christians are offended when someone drinks alcohol, or so they teach. But, most of them voted for John McCain, married to Cindy McCain, whose family is the alcohol bussines.;!?!

    Besides what is worse, abortion or killing Iraq/Afganisthan children? Or... aborting an American kid, or send him/her to war to get killed after they're 18 years old?

  • @coolestmcse

    Where do you get the idea that Americans are "offended" when someone drinks alcohol. Alcohol has always been a part of the Christian tradition...perhaps not in America, but nonetheless, it has.

  • @DanPrinMan But Christians are not to abuse alcohol. That is not to say that somebody is not a Christian just because they drink or struggle, I myself have a problem with alcohol.... still a Christian is to attempt to stay sober in both the physical, mental and spiritual sense. Yes the occassional drink at a time of celebration is actually a part of the Christian tradition, but drunkenness and habitual drinking is foolish, this is obvious even from a secular perspective.

  • @WorshipInTruth

    I agree. Never would I agree that it is ok for anyone to abuse alcohol. It is something scripture makes very clear.

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  • You idiots gave us Bush.

  • what does ethnicity have to do with it?

  • @elimelech12 That is a bit puzzling. I know that ive heard Piper labast racism in the past, I dont think he meant to say his ethnicity made him a bad president. Perhaps he meant that it could potentially cause problems with those who do hold to racist views, causing unrest. Dont know if I agree with that or not but i dont think he meant it in a hateful way

  • @Bmarch08 I've listened to several of his messages and im sure he meant nothing hateful...just didnt sound right...or maybe i heard it out of context.

  • @elimelech12 I'm puzzled by it too. It may have been cultural reception that he was concerned about. Dont think that was the thrust of his argument though in totality.

  • @Bmarch08 - as I said to the other viewer , I think what he means is that a persons ethnicity has alot to do with there perspective on certain issues. I dont think he meant anything hateful at all .

  • @elimelech12 - I think what he means is that a persons ethnicity has alot to do with there perspective on certain issues. I dont think he meant anything hateful at all .

  • @elimelech12 If you look at previous statements, his point is that having a black president would be a really healthy thing for America as a marker of civil rights, so if one of his elders looked at that as part of a bigger package and voted for Obama, that would be reasonable to him.

  • do you guys not have ANYTHING better to discuss????

  • what if you weigh up what Bush did for the pro-life movement - nothing - talk is cheap

  • These sorts of ramblings are useless.

    Scott Johnson

  • @scottvj Let me guess ... you voted for Obama.

  • @scottvj

    You are right about that (-:

  • @scottvj Just as useless as you saying that:D

  • What amuses me about Icy is that, on the one hand, he says we shouldn't vote on a single issue. Yet on the other hand he says we should vote for Obama because they'll supposedly end the war. The irony was apparently lost on Icy.

    The truth is, every one of us has issues we think are more important than others, and we usually vote accordingly. Ice is no different. He has his pet issue or two (as he's demonstrated clearly), even as he hypocritically tells others they shouldn't have theirs.

  • @ATLpirate sorry, you lost me when you called Obama a Muslim ROFL.

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  • @ATLpirate real classy to imply that people who are left wing are automatically not "real" Christians too.

  • @IcyScythe

    That's not what I said. Learn to read better.

  • @ATLpirate but you are def right that both parties are corrupt to the core.

    But what gave you the idea that I voted Obama on a "single issue"? I wanted universal health care, pulling out of Iraq (and Afghanistan but hey, 1 war is better than 2 I guess), and the chance that maybe, just maybe the drug war will be put to an end, at least when it comes to marijuana. It's just prohibition all over again, and is making organized crime huge.

    My first choice was Ron Paul, but Fox demonized him so...

  • @IcyScythe

    What gave YOU  the idea that I voted based on a single issue?

    You do realized that in order for universal healthcare to work money must be stolen from one group of people in order to pay for the healthcare of others, right? Government does not create wealth. The money it uses to provide such services must be obtained from the citizenry. The bottom 50% of the country pays no taxes at all, so who do you think will pay for their healthcare? You're in favor of government robbery.

  • @ATLpirate well said. Redistribution is non-biblical, read IIsaiah 65:20-24, outlined is private property ownership and the ability to "build" and Plant" as well as the concept of "eating" and "enjoying" the fruit of your own labor. REJECTED is building and another living in your property, or planting and another eating your crop. THis is a clear rejection by YAHWEH concerning socialist ideals.

  • Thing is, right wing Christians forget that we had 8 years of Republicans and they did NOTHING to end abortion.

    People shouldn't vote based on a single issue, especially when McCain would not have repealed abortion, he didn't have the power to!

    So let's vote for the guy who wants to end mass, pointless killing overseas and help the poor instead hmm?

  • @IcyScythe

    Thing is, left wing "Christians" forget that we've had many yours of liberal/Democratic rule in this country and yet poor people still exist and wars are still waged.

    People shouldn't vote on a single issue, especially when Obama would was never going to do what he said he was going to do and end the war.

    So let's stop being foolish by thinking you can play the "lesser of two evils, Republican/Democratic game and actually get anything done.

  • I honestly dont think we can find an entirely Biblical decision as to whom to vote for. Lets take last election. By all Christian standards the only candidate who is closest to Christians was Mike Huckabee (at least from public statements) When only two candidates remained McCain and Obama, should we not vote at all or vote for one of them? What if neither of them represents Christian views? Its really unclear what a Christian should do.

  • @StopFear

    First of all, Mike Huckabee does NOT have a Biblical political worldview. He's not even a Constitutionalist. So he's really no closer to the Christian view of things than anyone else.

    Secondly, like most people, you seem to be stuck in the two party mindset. There are plenty more parties out there than the Republicans & Democrats. The Constitution often nominates candidates who are men of God. There's also the American Heritage party.

  • @ATLpirate

    Ok, I too, know that he does not have perfect Biblical point of view, but I think he is closest to a Christian of all the former candidates.

    I dont agree that being a Constitutionalist translates into being Biblical. On what basis should Christians put priority on the Constitution? I think its good and I do support Ron Paul, but I think Bible is superior to the Constitution and Constitution does not even define fetus as a person. As a pro-lifer I believe conceived child is a person.

  • @StopFear

    Mike Huckabee is not even close to "perfect." But I'll move on.

    I never said that "being a Constitutionalist translates into being Biblical," nor did I say that the Constitution should have priority over the Bible. If you're going to communicate with me, I would appreciate it if you would represent me accurately instead of erecting strawmen.

  • @ATLpirate

    Listen, if thats not what you meant, I am sorry. From your statement I thought you put value on Constitution and I know of 3rd party candidates who strongly support it and are in general more honest than mainstream candidates. If thats not what you meant, well, feel free to elaborate. no offense meant

  • @StopFear

    It's ok. I do put value on the Constitution, but only because I think it is in line in with Biblical law and the Biblical view of the role of civil government. But of course my highest authority is Scripture itself.

  • The Constitution is not the basis of our country, it is God (His word). Of course, the Founders, for all their faults, did recognize this, and they formulated a document of law (our Constitution) that reflected this view. The Bible is our final authority, but the Constitution nonetheless governs what our civil government can and cannot do; it's a procedural document and one that should not be ignored and spat on like many do today (Huckabee included).

  • @ATLpirate

    ok, I also agree that Constitution is one of the better guidelines that a government official should follow, but can you explain on what basis should Christians follow it? or on what basis should we obey the government at all?

    Like I said earlier, there are some people who use the constitution to justify pro-abortion stances because constitution doesn't talk about whether fetus is a person.

  • @StopFear "there are some people who use the constitution to justify pro-abortion"

    Such people do not understand the Constitution. The Constitution is a document of enumerated rights. Meaning, the federal government only has the authority to do what the Constitution says it can do. Read Article 1, Section 8, where it lists the 18 or so things that the government is allowed to allocate funds towards. See free health care there? See public education? neither do I.

  • @ATLpirate "enumerated rights."

    That should be enumerated powers, not rights. My bad.

  • @StopFear

    Nor does it in any way say it's ok for the civil government to condone abortion (murder). Indeed, the entire premise that the framers of our Constitution were working from was: 1) that there is a Creator (the God of the Bible, the one true God), 2), that our rights come from Him, and 3) that it is the role of civil government to protect and defend those rights. Since God gives no such "right" to murder, it is no right at all.

  • @StopFear

    But if you still can't find anyone who is qualified to vote for (from a Christian perspective), DON'T VOTE! We as Christians are under no obligation to vote for ungodly leaders, simply because that's all that's out there. Supporting the "lesser of two evils" is still supporting evil.

  • This guy needs to take mushrooms.

  • This is actually the first time that I am REALLY at odds with John Piper.. Obama publicly trashed the Bible. He publicly trashed Christ's sermon on the mount calling it threatening (I don't think he knew what the sermon was and may have been confused.. But I digress..) all the while defending Islam. He was/is PRO HOMOSEXUAL MARRIAGE. We are not saved by our political views.. But Obama's core values aren't just secular, they are a total affront to all things Christ!!

  • Agree! Obama is not all bad if was not for the abortion support issue. It's really sad though, that it is a relevant matter that should make the difference when chosing a President, but what other better choices where there? I didn't vote for him but I was not happy with the available options either.

  • @evymiller "Obama is not all bad if was not for the abortion support issue."

    Tell me, aside from his support for infanticide, what's "not all bad" about Obama?

    You're right about there being a lack of good choices though. But who says you're obligated to vote for either the Republican or Democratic candidate, or anyone at all, if there aren't any who meet the requirements for civil magistrates set forth in Scripture?

  • @ATLpirate You forget that in 8 years of a republican held executive branch, legislative branch, and a right leaning supreme court they did NOTHING to end abortion. You can't vote based on a single issue.

    So let's vote instead for the guy who wants to end mass pointless killing overseas and help the poor. He's not my first choice either, I would have preferred Ron Paul who wants to pull out of the middle east entirely, but unfortunately Fox demonized him completely so he didnt have a chance.

  • @IcyScythe

    You assume you have me pegged, Icy, but in fact you know nothing. I haven't forgotten anything about the disastrous terms of Bush. I do not and did not endorse Republicanism. Republicans are, for the most part, no better than the Democrats. Both parties are corrupt, and as for as I'm concerned no Christian has any business voting for 99.9% of the candidates they produce.

    I don't advocate voting on single issues. Nevertheless, some issues are more important than others.

  • "So let's vote instead for the guy who wants to end mass pointless killing overseas and help the poor."

    I assume you're talking about Obama. Well, obviously you haven't been paying attention. Obama since taking office has actually sent MORE troops to Afghanistan and hasn't made any real effort of getting us out of the mess we've created there and in Iraq. And if your idea of "helping the poor" is stealing money from one group of people to give to another, sure, he'll "help the poor."

  • @IcyScythe

    I assume by your remarks that you voted for Obama then? If so, you essentially voted for a man who is an anti-Christian, pro-Muslim, pro-infanticide Marxist in the hopes that he would end the war and "help the poor," the former of which he hasn't done, and the latter of which he believes should be achieved through immoral, wealth-redistributive means. So congratulations, Icy. Not only did you waste your vote on evil, but the "good" you thought would come out of it is nonexistent.

  • Does anybody knownif john piper is ok? He looks very nervous and maybe sick

  • God bless John Piper

  • @StopFear No problem, Ill bless him for you. I AM.

  • What an absurd question...

  • LOOK MAW! Them Pharisees done gond and gotem a judges gavel to match their purdy compooter. Them must be some danged perfect people.

  • If there are church leaders at Bethlehem so theologically ignorant and unwise that voting for someone as evil and anti-Christian as Barack Obama is even an OPTION, then that church is in serious crises, and John Piper as its pastor is under obligation to remove such unqualified elders from their positions of authority in the church. John Piper treats this matter far too lightly and with far too much leeway.

  • @ATLpirate find me a presidential candidate that is like David, or Solomon. How about you find me somewhere the people choice their leader. Than find me where God appoints a leader of the nation

  • @MarlinMr

    In Deuteronomy 1, Moses instructed the people of Israel to choose (i.e. vote) themselves leaders. And not just any leaders but leaders who met certain requirements, e.g. they were to be capable, fearful of God, truthful, and haters of covetousness. Neither Obama and McCain or any of the other prominent candidates of recent decades have met these standards. As such, Christians had no business voting for such wicked and unqualified men. Unless you think you're wiser than Moses?

  • @ATLpirate Bible study might be in order for you.

  • @ATLpirate What you just wrote goes against Southern Baptist, Assemblies of God and reformed Prebyterian denominations as well as the vast majority of Bible believing evangelical Christian pastors in the US.

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