Ich würde gerne mal eine Interpretation hören, in der der Text auch so gemeint wird.
So hört man eher die Trauer und Verzweiflung heraus. Der Text sagt aber das Gegenteil. Er hat mit dieser Liebe angeschlossen und blickt eher zynisch auf sie herab.
Many of 'older' baritons vere (or still are) able to sing B flat or even B. But sometimes happens that tenors voice is baritone-sounding (for example del Monaco) and it's nothing strange that they sing A or B ;) Here Mr Fischer Dieskau made great job with singing and iterpretting this song. The best on YT :)
Robincia, where do you find contempt and hatred in Diskau's interpretation? I actually agree with you that this song is a song of reconciliation if anything, sorry if I misread you but were you generalizing about some interpretations of this song you have heard or this one in particular?
I think the conversation about this piece has probably been misinterpreted by both sides somewhat. I can't imagine that anyone could think that this song represents hatred of a lost love. Even mild acquaintance with the ideals of romanticism should lead to the idea that romantics understand deeply that the beloved most often does not remain with them, but the intense respect for a person once loved is always present, one lost is not persecuted, the song is about compassion and understanding.
Falsches Hintergrundbild. Sonnenaufgang/-untergang sind ein typisches Merkmal der Aufklärung. Hier handelt es sich aber um ein romantisches Gedicht von Heinrich Heine!! Trotzdem schön...
Friends, I can´t read the lines as deep as you do, but have a feeling: "Ich grolle nicht" is repeated six times in less than 2 minutes. Isn´t it something he repeats himself to contain his anger, which derives from his powerlessness? In my opinion,"I saw the snake that eats your heart" shows perfectly this kind of anger that he later holds back, calming himself down repeating "I do not resent" twice again and ending low & piano. The "angry" interpretation of that phrase is totally justified.
Il grande artefice della Lieder-Renaissance Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau. Magistrale. Fremente, rovente, composto. Vocalità rotonda, morbida. L'espressività modula tra il sibilante e l'irato; introduce un teatro metaforico della passione tradita, che tuttavia non perde mai l'à plomb dello stile cameristico. Magnifico.
Perfect: the anger and pathos of the cuckolded man. Vinogradov did this as pure horror: the finest of his many recordings. It's interesting to compare the two.
@riverhouse2007. I disagree in the strongest possible terms. This, one of the greatest of songs, is horrendously misinterpreted by all except Richard Tauber v=dRrFpFddDNM . There is not the slightest anger in the words or the music (other than that falsely read into it as here). The climactic line is one of feeling sorry for her misfortune. This composition is, properly understood, a most honourable concept, as befits the great honourableness and kindness of Schumann.
@riverhouse2007. Opinion perhaps, more to the point evidence. People so often read into things attitudes that are not there. The words are far from angry; the loudest line does not read as "you're such a cruel selfish bastarrd", but rather "I saw, my love, how truly miserable you are". Just about any music can be performed "angrily".... just add speed, loudness and exaggerated sforzandoes. But Tauber shows that it works non-angrily. Plus the bio evidence from Schumann's character.
Evidence unfortunately for you is something that has to be checked thoroughly. The translation you have given is correct but it is only literal. It is in it's true sense, not to say how miserable, but how wretched she is. As is backed up by the following movement which describes how she has broken his heart. If you know the rest of the story of this cycle you should know that the woman he loves goes on to marry someone else, and he pines for her for 9 more songs after this
@swordsandretoric, You're straining at gnats there, gnats that don't even exist. The later songs cannot logically disprove what he is thinking (or more specifically aspiring to) at that earlier point. Cassells German dictionary and Google give the translation of elend as "miserable", indeed the climax line does not really make sense if translated as "wretched", as it does as "I saw, my love, how truly miserable you are". That clearly shows empathy, incompatible with cheaply assumed anger.
(.... continuing) Indeed, if, as you claim, this song indicates contemptuous hatred of the beloved, then the singer wouldn't carry on with nine more songs about her. But it does precisely because it doesn't! My original point stands that "Ich grolle nicht"/"I do not resent" means exactly what it says here. And that there is no anger really existing in this song, only artificially imposed by misinterpreters to impress the impressionable. (Like the crude smoke added to Reichstag flag photo!)
Ich Grolle Nicht, means I bear no Grudge, and, as any dictionary will tell you, miserable has more than the meaning of upset, it can also be defined as "of wretched character or quality" and "contemptable." I'm not suggesting that there is complete anger in this song but heartfelt resentment and frustration at having lost his love. The 9 following songs are not about how he hates this woman but how he loves her and sees her in all surroundings and can't rid her from his mind.
@swordsandretoric: "miserable has more than the meaning of upset, it can also be defined as "of wretched character or quality" and "contemptable."". In which case the last few words mean he loves ("mein Leib"/"my love") someone he considers contemptible, which is simply crackers, as simultaneous love and contempt is impossible. Quite simply, elend means its standard meaning miserable, in accordance with the fact that Schumann was never a resentful or angry man.
@robincla Also, the speaker mentions that the object of his love has a heart that no ray of love can pierce, and is devoured by a snake, and is empty. How much more contempt can be said!?! So here is rejected love and contempt so artistically and simultaneously and contradictory presented.
@greenstboy I have already presented the proof that the "ironic" theory is unsound to point of absurd, and that the words mean exactly what they say. Sure, many people like you have a limited emotional repertoire so cannot understand any other concept than being angry in this circumstance. You can speculate all you want about what you imagine is "obvious" but it makes no difference to the simple truth that I have explained in various here.
@robincla(contin) Take the climax line words "I saw, my love, how truly miserable you are", and repeat them angrily. It simply is impossible to read anger into these words of the climax unless you have a severely warped emotional system. This is NOT an angry song!!!! It IS an upset person, but there are other ways of being upset than being angry (except for those with limited emotional spectrum). Schumann was kindest most honourable person, would not write the mean-minded thoughts you have.
@robincla "I saw, my love, how truly miserable you are"
These are words of empathy, not of hate. There really is no more to it. The words mean exactly what they say. Write your own nasty songs to sing please!
@robincla I think you are wrong. At least, Schumann interpreted the poem in a very clear way, and its a quite bitter one, not only anger, a mixture of a lot of feelings! If you knew a little bit about Heine, his life, his poetry and his opinion and experiences regarding women, you wouldn't think that way. It tells more about you, what you say, but its good to think in that way...but you should not insult other persons ( "limited emotions" and such stuff)...
@robincla I don't know you, and I don't really care too much about this argument. I have my own interpretation and it may difer from yours, but I will not go and say that you're stupid or blind or emotionally limited. Then again, by reading all your comments, the only conclusion that I get is that you have issues... a lot of issues. I got here looking for this fantastic performance and all I could do was reading you, insulting everyone's intelligence. Take your hate someplace else please.
(...continuing) The last song of this cycle describes how he is finally burying his feelings for this woman and ends with a beautiful piano section which personally I think displays relief at last. I understand that the literal translation of this Poem is one which is hard to analyse but "Lieder Line by Line" is the book which gives the true meaning of the songs. A dictionary gives a pretty poor translation since the words are meant to be interpreted, not translated.
(...continuing, continuing) Do you really think he thinks she looks like the Virgin Mary. This entire story is an ill fated love affair based on her decision to leave him, not because she's not a nice person. The other songs really do not back up any of your argument for the meaning this one.
@robincla Also in reference to your suggestion that Tauber sings this with pity rather than anger is most certainly down to interpretation since to me the climax of his rendition sounds quite demonstrably angry and not pitiful
Dear swordsandretoric, no matter how many misleading replies you write to present your views and misrepresent mine, that cannot change the facts. Some people, such as yourself just get stuck on ideas they have difficulty unthinking. As for translation as "I bear no grudge", "grolle" is a verb whereas "grudge" is a noun. Resent is an excellent translation of "grolle" in this context. Grudge usually means a wish to hit back in revenge to settle some score, not relevant to this context.
@robincla I'm not trying to make you entirely change your mind about the interpretation of this song but rather open it, since you aggressively and rudely seem to think that everybody else is wrong, despite a great amount of evidence in their favor as well. In accordance with the last few lines, he finds her contemptible because of her actions in agreeing to marry another man instead of himself, that doesn't mean he can't still love her.
@robincla Unless you believe that love is something that can just be dropped in an instance. On a final note I wish to say that Schumann wrote the music to this not the words, so his personal life, although relevant in the making of music, did not have an effect on how Heine wrote the poem. I'm not in any way trying to change your mind, as that seems impossible, but perhaps treat others opinions with more respect in the future since you never know when someone else might know a bit about it.
@swordsandretoric Thanks for explaining your thoughts (ad nauseam?), but I'm not in the business of disrespecting yourself, rather what I respect is the truth about this song and am outraged by the horrendous misrepresentations of it and its composer which you endorse. Many people have a limited emotional vocabulary and cannot imagine a person being upset about a breakup without also being angry/resentful. That appears to be the blindspot which confuses you and many singers about this song.
@swordsandretoric Schumann *chose* to use these very honourable words for his great song, and the words mean exactly what they say with no need to falsely impose some ironic resentment in contradiction of themselves: "I do *not* resent!" The crude Englicisation as "I hold no grudge" is chosen merely because it fits the rhythm, whereas the more accurate "I do not resent" would make an obviously hopeless mess of the singing!
as PIPARUNDRUN points out: "Ich grolle night" is repeated 6 times and obviously meant to be taken ironically. The anger is real along with the grief of lost love.
Many of us have experience these same conflicting emotions in our lives. I guess not you.
I have this recording, Erik Werba is the Accompanist. And you are spot on. He takes the High A (or G if transposed) as the Master that he is. This is the Perfect "Ich Grolle Nicht"
THIS is how this piece should be done! The best rendition of this I have heard! All the important spots dead on, and how about his high A? Bravo Dietrich!
He rips me apart...
TommyHaegin 7 months ago
Ich würde gerne mal eine Interpretation hören, in der der Text auch so gemeint wird.
So hört man eher die Trauer und Verzweiflung heraus. Der Text sagt aber das Gegenteil. Er hat mit dieser Liebe angeschlossen und blickt eher zynisch auf sie herab.
Stoertebekerxxx 7 months ago
One of the best interpretations, simply the best for me. Thanks for posting!
BurnsteinandWarenoff 7 months ago
Ich grolle nicht! Grandios, wie dieser phänomenale Sänger dieses Lied interpretiert.
Er war erst 31 Jahre alt!
ekonvollm 8 months ago
It's beautiful and strong.
Thanks for share it.
NievedeEspejos 9 months ago
Many of 'older' baritons vere (or still are) able to sing B flat or even B. But sometimes happens that tenors voice is baritone-sounding (for example del Monaco) and it's nothing strange that they sing A or B ;) Here Mr Fischer Dieskau made great job with singing and iterpretting this song. The best on YT :)
DarthMaudus 9 months ago
Fischer-Dieskau, Der Meister der Farben, grandios.........
GuidoKaiserBariton1 10 months ago 5
Wow..!
bryan1198 10 months ago
Robincia, where do you find contempt and hatred in Diskau's interpretation? I actually agree with you that this song is a song of reconciliation if anything, sorry if I misread you but were you generalizing about some interpretations of this song you have heard or this one in particular?
Cancrizans 11 months ago
This is one of my favorites, along with Wunderlich's. Wunderlich's is tumultuously passionate; Dieskau's is painfully thoughtful and contemplative.
Cancrizans 11 months ago
I think the conversation about this piece has probably been misinterpreted by both sides somewhat. I can't imagine that anyone could think that this song represents hatred of a lost love. Even mild acquaintance with the ideals of romanticism should lead to the idea that romantics understand deeply that the beloved most often does not remain with them, but the intense respect for a person once loved is always present, one lost is not persecuted, the song is about compassion and understanding.
Cancrizans 11 months ago
eine Person grollt :)
mcr89x 11 months ago
wonderful sound. he is a bariton and sing this in the original tone (for tenor) the best bariton ever. Thank you Dietrich!!!
donutopo22 1 year ago
Ich denke, daß Gerald Moore der Begleiter ist. Wunderbare Aufnahme dieses wunderschönen Liedes aus der "Dichterliebe"
ekonvollm 1 year ago
Das ist fantastisch
seras1968 1 year ago
Falsches Hintergrundbild. Sonnenaufgang/-untergang sind ein typisches Merkmal der Aufklärung. Hier handelt es sich aber um ein romantisches Gedicht von Heinrich Heine!! Trotzdem schön...
W0rMs4 1 year ago
For the adventurous search:
Mara Carlyle - I blame you not
and english jazz/singersongwriter reworking. very nice.
hknuddv 1 year ago
@hknuddv *an english jazz/singersongwriter reworking
hknuddv 1 year ago
Friends, I can´t read the lines as deep as you do, but have a feeling: "Ich grolle nicht" is repeated six times in less than 2 minutes. Isn´t it something he repeats himself to contain his anger, which derives from his powerlessness? In my opinion,"I saw the snake that eats your heart" shows perfectly this kind of anger that he later holds back, calming himself down repeating "I do not resent" twice again and ending low & piano. The "angry" interpretation of that phrase is totally justified.
piparundrun 1 year ago
As for me, this is so "pullito", trying to find a version with Souzay for youtube friends.
VivaRenata 1 year ago
WOW!!!
newhotmailit 1 year ago
I think I prefer Horowitz's accompanying to Werba's. I'd reccomend it!
There's more fire to it.
Dietrich does a fantastic job on both!
Amazing bloke
Robzie123 1 year ago
I had to do this song for competition today and im goin to state!
jkissinger2 1 year ago
Il grande artefice della Lieder-Renaissance Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau. Magistrale. Fremente, rovente, composto. Vocalità rotonda, morbida. L'espressività modula tra il sibilante e l'irato; introduce un teatro metaforico della passione tradita, che tuttavia non perde mai l'à plomb dello stile cameristico. Magnifico.
paolocossato1 2 years ago
amazing!
Marinausbcn 2 years ago
Perfect: the anger and pathos of the cuckolded man. Vinogradov did this as pure horror: the finest of his many recordings. It's interesting to compare the two.
riverhouse2007 2 years ago
@riverhouse2007. I disagree in the strongest possible terms. This, one of the greatest of songs, is horrendously misinterpreted by all except Richard Tauber v=dRrFpFddDNM . There is not the slightest anger in the words or the music (other than that falsely read into it as here). The climactic line is one of feeling sorry for her misfortune. This composition is, properly understood, a most honourable concept, as befits the great honourableness and kindness of Schumann.
robincla 1 year ago
@robincla You are welcome to your opinion, of course.
riverhouse2007 1 year ago
@riverhouse2007. Opinion perhaps, more to the point evidence. People so often read into things attitudes that are not there. The words are far from angry; the loudest line does not read as "you're such a cruel selfish bastarrd", but rather "I saw, my love, how truly miserable you are". Just about any music can be performed "angrily".... just add speed, loudness and exaggerated sforzandoes. But Tauber shows that it works non-angrily. Plus the bio evidence from Schumann's character.
robincla 1 year ago
Evidence unfortunately for you is something that has to be checked thoroughly. The translation you have given is correct but it is only literal. It is in it's true sense, not to say how miserable, but how wretched she is. As is backed up by the following movement which describes how she has broken his heart. If you know the rest of the story of this cycle you should know that the woman he loves goes on to marry someone else, and he pines for her for 9 more songs after this
swordsandretoric 1 year ago
@swordsandretoric, You're straining at gnats there, gnats that don't even exist. The later songs cannot logically disprove what he is thinking (or more specifically aspiring to) at that earlier point. Cassells German dictionary and Google give the translation of elend as "miserable", indeed the climax line does not really make sense if translated as "wretched", as it does as "I saw, my love, how truly miserable you are". That clearly shows empathy, incompatible with cheaply assumed anger.
robincla 1 year ago
(.... continuing) Indeed, if, as you claim, this song indicates contemptuous hatred of the beloved, then the singer wouldn't carry on with nine more songs about her. But it does precisely because it doesn't! My original point stands that "Ich grolle nicht"/"I do not resent" means exactly what it says here. And that there is no anger really existing in this song, only artificially imposed by misinterpreters to impress the impressionable. (Like the crude smoke added to Reichstag flag photo!)
robincla 1 year ago
Ich Grolle Nicht, means I bear no Grudge, and, as any dictionary will tell you, miserable has more than the meaning of upset, it can also be defined as "of wretched character or quality" and "contemptable." I'm not suggesting that there is complete anger in this song but heartfelt resentment and frustration at having lost his love. The 9 following songs are not about how he hates this woman but how he loves her and sees her in all surroundings and can't rid her from his mind.
swordsandretoric 1 year ago
@swordsandretoric: "miserable has more than the meaning of upset, it can also be defined as "of wretched character or quality" and "contemptable."". In which case the last few words mean he loves ("mein Leib"/"my love") someone he considers contemptible, which is simply crackers, as simultaneous love and contempt is impossible. Quite simply, elend means its standard meaning miserable, in accordance with the fact that Schumann was never a resentful or angry man.
robincla 1 year ago
@robincla Also, the speaker mentions that the object of his love has a heart that no ray of love can pierce, and is devoured by a snake, and is empty. How much more contempt can be said!?! So here is rejected love and contempt so artistically and simultaneously and contradictory presented.
greenstboy 1 year ago
@greenstboy I have already presented the proof that the "ironic" theory is unsound to point of absurd, and that the words mean exactly what they say. Sure, many people like you have a limited emotional repertoire so cannot understand any other concept than being angry in this circumstance. You can speculate all you want about what you imagine is "obvious" but it makes no difference to the simple truth that I have explained in various here.
robincla 1 year ago
@robincla(contin) Take the climax line words "I saw, my love, how truly miserable you are", and repeat them angrily. It simply is impossible to read anger into these words of the climax unless you have a severely warped emotional system. This is NOT an angry song!!!! It IS an upset person, but there are other ways of being upset than being angry (except for those with limited emotional spectrum). Schumann was kindest most honourable person, would not write the mean-minded thoughts you have.
robincla 1 year ago
@robincla "I saw, my love, how truly miserable you are"
These are words of empathy, not of hate. There really is no more to it. The words mean exactly what they say. Write your own nasty songs to sing please!
robincla 1 year ago
@robincla I think you are wrong. At least, Schumann interpreted the poem in a very clear way, and its a quite bitter one, not only anger, a mixture of a lot of feelings! If you knew a little bit about Heine, his life, his poetry and his opinion and experiences regarding women, you wouldn't think that way. It tells more about you, what you say, but its good to think in that way...but you should not insult other persons ( "limited emotions" and such stuff)...
mariusfelix 1 year ago
@robincla I don't know you, and I don't really care too much about this argument. I have my own interpretation and it may difer from yours, but I will not go and say that you're stupid or blind or emotionally limited. Then again, by reading all your comments, the only conclusion that I get is that you have issues... a lot of issues. I got here looking for this fantastic performance and all I could do was reading you, insulting everyone's intelligence. Take your hate someplace else please.
TheRedprofessor 1 year ago
@robincla Agreed. This is far from being a song of anger, but more of hopeless sadness and anguish. I love to sing this one (in this key).
71259mark 1 year ago
(...continuing) The last song of this cycle describes how he is finally burying his feelings for this woman and ends with a beautiful piano section which personally I think displays relief at last. I understand that the literal translation of this Poem is one which is hard to analyse but "Lieder Line by Line" is the book which gives the true meaning of the songs. A dictionary gives a pretty poor translation since the words are meant to be interpreted, not translated.
swordsandretoric 1 year ago
(...continuing, continuing) Do you really think he thinks she looks like the Virgin Mary. This entire story is an ill fated love affair based on her decision to leave him, not because she's not a nice person. The other songs really do not back up any of your argument for the meaning this one.
swordsandretoric 1 year ago
@robincla Also in reference to your suggestion that Tauber sings this with pity rather than anger is most certainly down to interpretation since to me the climax of his rendition sounds quite demonstrably angry and not pitiful
swordsandretoric 1 year ago
Dear swordsandretoric, no matter how many misleading replies you write to present your views and misrepresent mine, that cannot change the facts. Some people, such as yourself just get stuck on ideas they have difficulty unthinking. As for translation as "I bear no grudge", "grolle" is a verb whereas "grudge" is a noun. Resent is an excellent translation of "grolle" in this context. Grudge usually means a wish to hit back in revenge to settle some score, not relevant to this context.
robincla 1 year ago
@robincla I'm not trying to make you entirely change your mind about the interpretation of this song but rather open it, since you aggressively and rudely seem to think that everybody else is wrong, despite a great amount of evidence in their favor as well. In accordance with the last few lines, he finds her contemptible because of her actions in agreeing to marry another man instead of himself, that doesn't mean he can't still love her.
swordsandretoric 1 year ago
@robincla Unless you believe that love is something that can just be dropped in an instance. On a final note I wish to say that Schumann wrote the music to this not the words, so his personal life, although relevant in the making of music, did not have an effect on how Heine wrote the poem. I'm not in any way trying to change your mind, as that seems impossible, but perhaps treat others opinions with more respect in the future since you never know when someone else might know a bit about it.
swordsandretoric 1 year ago
@swordsandretoric Thanks for explaining your thoughts (ad nauseam?), but I'm not in the business of disrespecting yourself, rather what I respect is the truth about this song and am outraged by the horrendous misrepresentations of it and its composer which you endorse. Many people have a limited emotional vocabulary and cannot imagine a person being upset about a breakup without also being angry/resentful. That appears to be the blindspot which confuses you and many singers about this song.
robincla 1 year ago 2
@robincla I think the tone of the poem/lied is sarcastic, rather than accepting.
Bambiezbotron 1 year ago
@swordsandretoric Schumann *chose* to use these very honourable words for his great song, and the words mean exactly what they say with no need to falsely impose some ironic resentment in contradiction of themselves: "I do *not* resent!" The crude Englicisation as "I hold no grudge" is chosen merely because it fits the rhythm, whereas the more accurate "I do not resent" would make an obviously hopeless mess of the singing!
robincla 1 year ago
@robincla Furthermore, Schumann himself changed some of Heine's words in this very song. So yes, he did chose those words in a second sense too.
robincla 1 year ago
as PIPARUNDRUN points out: "Ich grolle night" is repeated 6 times and obviously meant to be taken ironically. The anger is real along with the grief of lost love.
Many of us have experience these same conflicting emotions in our lives. I guess not you.
greenstboy 1 year ago
@riverhouse2007 no u aren't......!!
bestEVAandEVA 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@riverhouse2007 no u aren't......!!
bestEVAandEVA 1 year ago
I have this recording, Erik Werba is the Accompanist. And you are spot on. He takes the High A (or G if transposed) as the Master that he is. This is the Perfect "Ich Grolle Nicht"
78timothy 2 years ago
It's an A allright! (no G) And he didnt just sing it, it was even a nice sounding A!
Pltinum 2 years ago 14
His interp of this entire Song Cycle (1956) is my favorite, I cannot see how it can beimproved upon. Thanks!! TD :-)
78timothy 2 years ago
@Pltinum
This is Dieskau here I think he knows what he's doing
TheGerman6th 1 year ago
@TheGerman6th You would say. But no matter who you are, an A for a baritone is extremely difficult.
Pltinum 1 year ago
@Pltinum Oh i thought he was saying Dieskau was singing it wrong never mind!
TheGerman6th 1 year ago
@Pltinum And it's not even just a nice sounding A, he sings the A better than quite a lot of tenors nowadays.
tmtstudio1983 10 months ago
@Pltinum Bjoerling, listening to a D-Fd recital, said, "Nice tenor!"
liedersanger1 8 months ago
@Pltinum nice? phenomenal...!
chipncharge94 7 months ago
@78timothy Gerald Moore ist der Begleiter.
ekonvollm 1 year ago
THIS is how this piece should be done! The best rendition of this I have heard! All the important spots dead on, and how about his high A? Bravo Dietrich!
Lindow 2 years ago
Agreed!!
78timothy 2 years ago
@Lindow
Strongly disagree, as per my reply to Riverhouse here.
robincla 1 year ago