@quwert23 May a fool (I Cor. 1:18-29) of a man respond all your questions/objections? God did not want them to worship or serve a graven image. This is what your quoting in one of your comments (Exodus 20:4-ff). God did not tell them to worship the bronze snake, but look at it for healing. So though I can totally see where you see the contradiction, it is not one.
@quwert23 To explain the "God is choosing to rescue His own people from the curse, with a picture of the curse." The O.T. is full of pictures of Christ and His work and this is one of those pictures. Christ was our rescue (as they needed rescue from serpents). But in order to rescue us, He had to take on our curse, our sin. He bore the iniquity of us all (Isaiah 53), He became the curse/became sin (II Corinthians 5:21) and by our looking to Him for healing, we are healed of our cancer -->SIN!
@gosnellbc No, the OT is NOT full of "pictures" of Christ. It is full of misc. prophecies and stories of other things that Christians today selectively interpret as being about Christ. The OT forbids the making of a graven image; a carving of a snake on a pole IS a "graven image". Just because you deem to know the intent and meaning of people and actions when they are not stated does not make this not a violation of God's law.
@quwert23 and in the same measure, just because you deem to know the intent and meaning of people and actions when they are not stated does not make this a violation of God's law. You bear no more (or less authority than I my friend). Graven image defined by Merriam Webster (a secular site)-"an object of WORSHIP carved usually from wood or stone." Now read Numbers 21:4-9 and tell me where the word worship is mentioned? Or where God commands them to worship the snake?
@gosnellbc I don't mean to know any intents. I'm stating what is most probable given the evidence. "Graven image" literally means carved picture or statue. That is what the Bible says NOT to make. It says nothing about "don't make a graven image to WORSHIP" which is why the Amish disdain photography and don't sew faces on their child's dolls.
@gosnellbc The idea that the crucifiction of Christ needed to be mirrored in countless obscure ways throughout the OT (and only to the Hebrews for some reason) for thousands of years before hand is stupid, to put it frankly. Why not have Christ come in the first generation, right after the fall? At least all of the population of the world could theoretically have had a chance to know of this savior then.
@quwert23 stupid eh? Well if only you were God, things would be so much better then huh? Things woulda been done right on your watch! man, if only. But your not, which you know, and its why you feel compelled to hop on youtube and mock Christianity. Because your threatened by it. Your threatened by the fact that it may be true. And dont get me wrong CHRISTIANITY IS FOOLISHNESS (I Cor. 1:18). And your looking to be fully convinced it isnt true. But to continue our dialogue...
@gosnellbc Am I "threatened" by Christianity? Not so much; at least not to the point where I feel threatened for my life or freedom. This is of course because we live in a secular country founded upon the ideals of separation of church and state and the freedom of religion. IF I happened to live in 12th century Europe or bronze age Palestine, I would feel much more threatened I'm sure. Thankfully we don't have a theocracy of Yahweh like the Hebrews did eh?
@quwert23 All people before the crucifixion of Christ didnt necessarily go to hell. The payment for sin by Christ on the Cross, when He bore the wrath of God, was applied to sins past, present, and future. Take Abraham for example, He believed, and it was counted to him as righteousness (Gen. 15:6, Romans 4:3). Why only the Hebrews in the O.T.? For God's purpose of election (Romans 9:11-13). You dont have to like that, i know its repulsive thinking, and you dont have to like God, but that's God.
@gosnellbc Show me where Abraham believed in Jesus DEATH on the cross as payment for his sins. That is the ONLY way to be saved according to Paul and most Christians today. Abraham believed in God. So what. So does every Muslim; and the same God at that.
The idea of an elect is not only the opposite of every principle of freedom and equality this country is founded upon, but it is evil. It is the concept whereby one man feels justified in owning another man; it is the backbone of slavery.
@gosnellbc While you acknowledge that the idea of God holding some people as "elect" and allowing others to be damned for no other reason than He didn't feel like sharing the truth of his presence with them is repulsive, you still feel this is "good". If it's repulsive, why would you think of it as good? Why the double standard of right and wrong? Really, what made the Hebrews any more deserving of heaven than any other peoples alive then? They were all from Noah and Adam, so why the favoritism?
@quwert23 and we must remember that if we have a rightful understanding of our sin, no one deserved Christ. Not me, not the Jews, not the Gentiles, and not even you Quwert. So if people died and went to hell before Christ (or after Christ) they received just punishment for rebelling against the most worthy being in the universe
@gosnellbc No one "deserves" Christ? I would say no one should "need" Him. If in fact Christ is the only way to not be BBQ'd for ever and ever, then He should have been a little more eager to let everyone know about this, and not haphazardly bestowing elect status on random "chosen peoples" to the detriment of 99.9% of the rest of the people on this Earth. The idea that we would even NEED a savior is ludicrous as the "saviour" is the one that made us flawed in the first place.
@quwert23 You like many others do not understand the hatred God has for your sins. All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. God owes us nothing, we were created by him and in return we have spat in his face and chosen our sin over him. Yet through his merciful love he set out a plan to reconcile us back to him. Jesus came not because we needed him, or was obligated to, but because of the JOY that was set before him in providing salvation to some undeserving sinners!
@DerZanDa You, like many others, do not seem to comprehend the inherent responsibility a maker shares for the end result of his creation when you combine this with the "omniscience", or "foresight" of an all knowing God. The maker of a pipe bomb that kills an innocent child is still held accountable for that child's death, even if the intended casualty was someone else. GOD is responsible for sin's existence, and so should be held accountable for that.
@quwert23 I use to be an atheist. You just happen to be ignorant to the majority of scripture, you have come to your own conclusions about what God can and cannot do, you put him in a box. I read my Bible for at least 2 hours a day, and study it very thoroughly you sadly only want to understand one side of God. We needed him yes, but he was still not obligated to come, Jesus came willingly. If you do not like this doctrine it's because you don't see how disgusting your sin is.
@DerZanDa Why can I NOT put God in a box? Don't you do the same when you say things like "God CANNOT sin", or "God hates evil"? Those type of statements that Christians make all the time are ascribing limits to God; "putting Him in a box" as you say.
@DerZanDa Christians love the parent/child comparison between God and humans; yet the examples you use would mean it is ok for a parent to do whatever they wished with their children because THEY created them and they are mere property. Can YOU kill your child? Can you starve, beat, or otherwise abuse your own child? Why do you give a deity carte blanche to do whatever they like simply because they are a "parent"? If God is NOT a "father figure", as the church calls Him, quit calling Him that.
@DerZanDa Actually, the Bible says Jesus DID come because we needed Him, and that He had no choice; God the father SENT Him. It also makes it clear Jesus was not "joyful" about the cross, as he spent the night in Gethsemane in tears begging the Father to not require His death if possible. This was not a picture of a joyful god or person; but someone in extreme fear and emotional agony.
How is it an atheist knows the Bible better than a Christian? Does that not throw up a red flag for you?
@quwert23 John Piper has been studying this his whole life, I'm quite confident you do not understand it better then him, though I do not really know the depths of your pride at this point.
@DerZanDa Perhaps he HAS been studying this all of his life, but then again, so have I. The difference is that he (and most Christians) "study" the Bible with the preexisting notion that it is correct and infallible in every way. This is very different than studying it like anything else we say we "study".
Why is it "pride" if I claim to understand the Bible, yet you or this guy are somehow NOT guilty of this when you claim to be so knowledgeable? Double standard perhaps?
@DerZanDa I do NOT only "understand" the one side of God. The fact that there are so many contradictory facets to "God" is part of the problem with being a Christian; which "God" do I follow? The one that says "kill all non believers", or the one that says "love thy neighbor"? "Christianity" has created a new religion and a new god from an amalgamation of Judaism and paganism. Jesus is NOT the same god as Yahweh, which is evident if only from reading the teachings of Jesus Himself.
@DerZanDa Yes, my logic is more infallible than the Bible; that being said that can hardly be called prideful. It doesn't take much logic to refute the "inerrancy" of Bible after all.
@DerZanDa I believe the proper scripture for you to quote would be Matthew 7:6
"Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you."
The Bible doesn't want you to argue with people like me. Is that because God feels its a waste of time to try to convert us heathens, or because He's scared a weaker Christian might fall prey to the whiles and logic of what we say?
@quwert23 Like I said I am a former atheist and former enemy of Christianity, I use to do what you do and go around look for fights to try and prove people wrong. Knowing this I understand it is pointless debating this with you, only God can change your heart. Notice how you atheists go around to every religious video attacking believers. Let me just tell you something, you are wasting your time...
@DerZanDa Wait, I'm "looking for fights" by commenting on things that to the best of my knowledge are untruths? So by that logic I can assume you would have stood by at the slave auctions and "not tried to start fights" over human rights, or you would have gladly held your tongue in 1930's Poland as the Holocaust began?
Why should ANYONE ignore ignorance and injustice when they see it? The status quo and "peace at any price" are not something to be defended for no reason.
@DerZanDa I am not an enemy of "Christianity", but of the horrors that are caused by ALL religions. At their most benign, a religion promotes blind ignorance as a virtue. It's practitioners are merely lucky if they are not pushed to the full extent of depravity possible that we see from the Judeo Christian version.
@quwert23 You are comparing Christianity to the Holocaust talk about blind ignorance, we serve our communities selflessly. If there is no God which you claim to be true then how we live our lives does not really matter the least bit, as long as we aren't the dangerous crazy kind of Christians which I am not. In fact it leads to a life of morals. If it is not true then it's a completely ridiculous life style and the most foolish life one could live, but if it is then we should take note.
@DerZanDa How we live our lives doesn't matter?! So you REALLY don't care if someone comes over and murders you then? Or are you saying I don't, simply because I don't believe in a god? Either way is ridiculously stupid. The origins of morality are not related in the least bit to religion. Your god is a murderer of babies and children, and a proponent of slavery, genocide and sexism; yet you consider morals to come from him?
@quwert23 Take a deep breath, if you cause yourself too much stress you'll die early and cease to exist. We wouldn't want that to happen. And your thoughts on the Bible are the same as every other atheist and equally ignorant. To further debate with you is a complete waste of my time. I don't throw pearls to swine.
@DerZanDa Why would you care if I cease to exist? I am a sinful, atheistic influence on all around me; my very presence dishonors God and his Holiness. You should rejoice if I perish, just like the Bible commands!
I can't help but notice that no matter how often you say you will not continue this conversation, you continue regardless. Are you perhaps beset upon by pride; the most sinful of sins? You are so prideful that you can't even allow someone to have the last word in a silly debate?
@DerZanDa Nope, my thoughts are NOT all the same as every atheist, because all people are different. My thoughts are as different from Hitchens' or Dawkin's as yours are from Graham's or Strobel's or Lewis's.
Please explain how atheism is ignorant. Do you have an explanation to back up your comments?
@quwert23 Quwert, we meet again! Im actually preaching through this passage and came back to this video as a reference and here you are still debating! I apologize for not getting back to your last comment... I got sidetracked and forgot, and there isnt much intelligence in arguing with a wall! ha, tho i know you think me the same. I wont say atheism is ignorant.. but atheists worship a god! Indeed they do. Have you heard the argument before or do I need explain? Hope you are well!
@quwert23 You ARE correct that Christianity is a ridiculous lifestyle and the most foolish one we could live. It makes one wonder why you persist since you can't possibly "prove" anything about Christianity is true...
@quwert23 I believe Atheism to be wrong but I don't spend my free time trying to go over there and convince those people because I know that arguing about this is a waste of precious time. Especially for you since you believe that this is the only life you get, you better get to that life because once you're dead you are completely dead... I am not blindly ignorant, and if you'd like you can see some pretty interesting views. at CARM.org. Many atheists and Christians debate there.
@DerZanDa You serve selflessly? So you don't follow the example of the Beatitudes in Matthew which are solely about doing the right things so as to receive a reward? You don't serve "selflessly" so as to receive more jewels in your heavenly crown, or an exalted status in the heavenly kingdom? Well then, you aren't very Christian according to the Bible.
@DerZanDa You are also true that this one is the only life we get. Unlike you however, I am not ONLY concerned with my own life, but with humanity as a whole. As religion is predominately a negative influence on humans I shall oppose it even when it might take away away a few minutes from my TV watching time.
@DerZanDa But just for the record, I WOULD say that I have a much better understanding of the Scriptures than 99% of most theologians. You can call it pride if you wish; I call it simply stating a fact.
@gosnellbc Even if these vague prophetic scribblings were actually about the future Jesus, they did little to nothing to help the poor souls unfortunate enough to come before Christ birth, and of course nothing at all for all of the damned who weren't fortunate enough to be "chosen people" (sounds actually a little racist frankly). Of course, when you actually look at the individual "prophecies" it's easy to see they are NOT about Jesus.
@gosnellbc Also, one of the meanings of the word used here, "nahvat", is to "look upon with respect". To gaze with respect at a "graven image" is edging extremely close to idolatry. To compound this is the fact that snakes were extremely common in both Egyptian and surrounding religious ideologies. For a superstitious bronze age people it would make sense to fight fire with fire; this was common.
@quwert23- well my lexicon (Strong's) says the word for look there is "ra'ah" (pronouced raw-aw). And it has a number of meanings... behold, consider, discern, gaze, look, be near, percieve, regard, respect, think, and view (and that isn't all of the meanings (if providing them would help the point i would have included them, and if you would like the entire list, ill be glad to provide). But it looks like you took two of the many meanings, combined them to make them fit your assertion
@gosnellbc People do not die from non venomous snake bites, unless they are huge constrictors that crush them to death (which do not live in the Sinai) or unless they get extremely infected, which would take quite a long time and would not be probable in these amounts. Also, enough snakes to bite this many people is just ludicrous. The "Biblical" venomous assumption comes from the description of "fiery" serpents, as well as the fact people were supposedly dying as a result of being bitten.
@quwert23 that it was idol worship.. but it doesnt say to look respectfully on per say, thats just what you put together... But lets say your right. and it does mean to look respectfully on.. the next thing to do would be to look at how else the word is used. The same "Ra'ah" is used in the commonly known and quoted scripture "The Lord looks at the heart." I can assure you, if your heart is as wicked as mine, God does not worship our hearts! At best you could stretch it to say He respects/values
@gosnellbc Assuming the snake attack was true to some extent, it was probably viewed as a manifestation of the Egyptian demon Aapep, or one of the other myriad deities that used the form of a snake. It should also be realized that the majority of venomous snake bites are not lethal. This alone could easily account for the fact that many people didn't die from their wounds.
@quwert23 Sure. It could have been a manifestation of the Egyptian deomon Aapep. The Israelites were crying about being rescued from Egypt, as if they wanted to go back. God could have totally been saying, "ok, you want Egypt back, your choosing Egypt over your God. Fine, here is a taste of your Egypt". Never thought about that, but great thought Quwert. I've something more to ponder! And it is realized that most snakes are not venomous. No argument there. But they aren't described as venomous
@gosnellbc I clearly stated that "one" of the meanings was to look with respect. This is still splitting hairs however as the Hebrews are forbidden to make ANY image of anything, regardless of whether it is to worship or not.
~EXODUS 20:4 “You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth."
Notice the "or"? They are forbidden to make ANY images of ANY person or animal or thing that exist
@quwert23- I would also be willing to dialogue about any other objections that you might have. ryancv11@gmail.com. Heck, might even be willing to drive to wherever you are to talk over some coffee. May Christ cause you to live!
"The people are dying because God is killing them".
Does no one notice what a petty, totalitarian tyrant the God of the OT is? He's going to kill everyone, UNLESS they "look" at an image of Satan on a cross; an idol in other words.
Hmm, Jesus is represented by...a snake? The image of Satan? So Moses made a "graven image", a direct contradiction to God's previous law, in order to heal the Hebrews from the serpents that God CAUSED to bite everyone?! WTH people? Do you not see what a stupid idea this is and how it doesn't even jive with the rest of the Bible?
The New Testament rings so clearly through this story. The visual image of what punishment sin deserves is placed on a stick & lifted up, for us to see how toxic we are, so that we can be saved - purified of poison - by looking to (hoping & trusting in) the One Who bore the "countenance" of our sin.
Im in love, Jesus my precious gift
artchess0 8 months ago
"God is CHOOSING to rescue His own people FROM the curse, with a picture of the curse."
It really doesn't make anymore sense when explained, does it?
quwert23 10 months ago
@quwert23 May a fool (I Cor. 1:18-29) of a man respond all your questions/objections? God did not want them to worship or serve a graven image. This is what your quoting in one of your comments (Exodus 20:4-ff). God did not tell them to worship the bronze snake, but look at it for healing. So though I can totally see where you see the contradiction, it is not one.
gosnellbc 8 months ago
@quwert23 To explain the "God is choosing to rescue His own people from the curse, with a picture of the curse." The O.T. is full of pictures of Christ and His work and this is one of those pictures. Christ was our rescue (as they needed rescue from serpents). But in order to rescue us, He had to take on our curse, our sin. He bore the iniquity of us all (Isaiah 53), He became the curse/became sin (II Corinthians 5:21) and by our looking to Him for healing, we are healed of our cancer -->SIN!
gosnellbc 8 months ago
@gosnellbc No, the OT is NOT full of "pictures" of Christ. It is full of misc. prophecies and stories of other things that Christians today selectively interpret as being about Christ. The OT forbids the making of a graven image; a carving of a snake on a pole IS a "graven image". Just because you deem to know the intent and meaning of people and actions when they are not stated does not make this not a violation of God's law.
quwert23 8 months ago
@quwert23 and in the same measure, just because you deem to know the intent and meaning of people and actions when they are not stated does not make this a violation of God's law. You bear no more (or less authority than I my friend). Graven image defined by Merriam Webster (a secular site)-"an object of WORSHIP carved usually from wood or stone." Now read Numbers 21:4-9 and tell me where the word worship is mentioned? Or where God commands them to worship the snake?
gosnellbc 8 months ago
@gosnellbc I don't mean to know any intents. I'm stating what is most probable given the evidence. "Graven image" literally means carved picture or statue. That is what the Bible says NOT to make. It says nothing about "don't make a graven image to WORSHIP" which is why the Amish disdain photography and don't sew faces on their child's dolls.
quwert23 8 months ago
@gosnellbc The idea that the crucifiction of Christ needed to be mirrored in countless obscure ways throughout the OT (and only to the Hebrews for some reason) for thousands of years before hand is stupid, to put it frankly. Why not have Christ come in the first generation, right after the fall? At least all of the population of the world could theoretically have had a chance to know of this savior then.
quwert23 8 months ago
@quwert23 stupid eh? Well if only you were God, things would be so much better then huh? Things woulda been done right on your watch! man, if only. But your not, which you know, and its why you feel compelled to hop on youtube and mock Christianity. Because your threatened by it. Your threatened by the fact that it may be true. And dont get me wrong CHRISTIANITY IS FOOLISHNESS (I Cor. 1:18). And your looking to be fully convinced it isnt true. But to continue our dialogue...
gosnellbc 8 months ago
@gosnellbc Am I "threatened" by Christianity? Not so much; at least not to the point where I feel threatened for my life or freedom. This is of course because we live in a secular country founded upon the ideals of separation of church and state and the freedom of religion. IF I happened to live in 12th century Europe or bronze age Palestine, I would feel much more threatened I'm sure. Thankfully we don't have a theocracy of Yahweh like the Hebrews did eh?
quwert23 8 months ago
@quwert23 All people before the crucifixion of Christ didnt necessarily go to hell. The payment for sin by Christ on the Cross, when He bore the wrath of God, was applied to sins past, present, and future. Take Abraham for example, He believed, and it was counted to him as righteousness (Gen. 15:6, Romans 4:3). Why only the Hebrews in the O.T.? For God's purpose of election (Romans 9:11-13). You dont have to like that, i know its repulsive thinking, and you dont have to like God, but that's God.
gosnellbc 8 months ago
@gosnellbc Show me where Abraham believed in Jesus DEATH on the cross as payment for his sins. That is the ONLY way to be saved according to Paul and most Christians today. Abraham believed in God. So what. So does every Muslim; and the same God at that.
The idea of an elect is not only the opposite of every principle of freedom and equality this country is founded upon, but it is evil. It is the concept whereby one man feels justified in owning another man; it is the backbone of slavery.
quwert23 8 months ago
@gosnellbc While you acknowledge that the idea of God holding some people as "elect" and allowing others to be damned for no other reason than He didn't feel like sharing the truth of his presence with them is repulsive, you still feel this is "good". If it's repulsive, why would you think of it as good? Why the double standard of right and wrong? Really, what made the Hebrews any more deserving of heaven than any other peoples alive then? They were all from Noah and Adam, so why the favoritism?
quwert23 8 months ago
@quwert23 and we must remember that if we have a rightful understanding of our sin, no one deserved Christ. Not me, not the Jews, not the Gentiles, and not even you Quwert. So if people died and went to hell before Christ (or after Christ) they received just punishment for rebelling against the most worthy being in the universe
gosnellbc 8 months ago
@gosnellbc No one "deserves" Christ? I would say no one should "need" Him. If in fact Christ is the only way to not be BBQ'd for ever and ever, then He should have been a little more eager to let everyone know about this, and not haphazardly bestowing elect status on random "chosen peoples" to the detriment of 99.9% of the rest of the people on this Earth. The idea that we would even NEED a savior is ludicrous as the "saviour" is the one that made us flawed in the first place.
quwert23 8 months ago
@quwert23 You like many others do not understand the hatred God has for your sins. All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. God owes us nothing, we were created by him and in return we have spat in his face and chosen our sin over him. Yet through his merciful love he set out a plan to reconcile us back to him. Jesus came not because we needed him, or was obligated to, but because of the JOY that was set before him in providing salvation to some undeserving sinners!
DerZanDa 7 months ago
@DerZanDa You, like many others, do not seem to comprehend the inherent responsibility a maker shares for the end result of his creation when you combine this with the "omniscience", or "foresight" of an all knowing God. The maker of a pipe bomb that kills an innocent child is still held accountable for that child's death, even if the intended casualty was someone else. GOD is responsible for sin's existence, and so should be held accountable for that.
quwert23 7 months ago
@quwert23 I use to be an atheist. You just happen to be ignorant to the majority of scripture, you have come to your own conclusions about what God can and cannot do, you put him in a box. I read my Bible for at least 2 hours a day, and study it very thoroughly you sadly only want to understand one side of God. We needed him yes, but he was still not obligated to come, Jesus came willingly. If you do not like this doctrine it's because you don't see how disgusting your sin is.
DerZanDa 7 months ago
@DerZanDa Why can I NOT put God in a box? Don't you do the same when you say things like "God CANNOT sin", or "God hates evil"? Those type of statements that Christians make all the time are ascribing limits to God; "putting Him in a box" as you say.
quwert23 7 months ago
@DerZanDa Christians love the parent/child comparison between God and humans; yet the examples you use would mean it is ok for a parent to do whatever they wished with their children because THEY created them and they are mere property. Can YOU kill your child? Can you starve, beat, or otherwise abuse your own child? Why do you give a deity carte blanche to do whatever they like simply because they are a "parent"? If God is NOT a "father figure", as the church calls Him, quit calling Him that.
quwert23 7 months ago
@DerZanDa Actually, the Bible says Jesus DID come because we needed Him, and that He had no choice; God the father SENT Him. It also makes it clear Jesus was not "joyful" about the cross, as he spent the night in Gethsemane in tears begging the Father to not require His death if possible. This was not a picture of a joyful god or person; but someone in extreme fear and emotional agony.
How is it an atheist knows the Bible better than a Christian? Does that not throw up a red flag for you?
quwert23 7 months ago
@quwert23 John Piper has been studying this his whole life, I'm quite confident you do not understand it better then him, though I do not really know the depths of your pride at this point.
DerZanDa 7 months ago
@DerZanDa Perhaps he HAS been studying this all of his life, but then again, so have I. The difference is that he (and most Christians) "study" the Bible with the preexisting notion that it is correct and infallible in every way. This is very different than studying it like anything else we say we "study".
Why is it "pride" if I claim to understand the Bible, yet you or this guy are somehow NOT guilty of this when you claim to be so knowledgeable? Double standard perhaps?
quwert23 7 months ago
@quwert23 Oh yes your logic is more infallible than the Bible. Talking with blind people is a waste of time...
DerZanDa 7 months ago
@DerZanDa I do NOT only "understand" the one side of God. The fact that there are so many contradictory facets to "God" is part of the problem with being a Christian; which "God" do I follow? The one that says "kill all non believers", or the one that says "love thy neighbor"? "Christianity" has created a new religion and a new god from an amalgamation of Judaism and paganism. Jesus is NOT the same god as Yahweh, which is evident if only from reading the teachings of Jesus Himself.
quwert23 7 months ago
@DerZanDa Yes, my logic is more infallible than the Bible; that being said that can hardly be called prideful. It doesn't take much logic to refute the "inerrancy" of Bible after all.
quwert23 7 months ago
@DerZanDa I believe the proper scripture for you to quote would be Matthew 7:6
"Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you."
The Bible doesn't want you to argue with people like me. Is that because God feels its a waste of time to try to convert us heathens, or because He's scared a weaker Christian might fall prey to the whiles and logic of what we say?
quwert23 7 months ago
@quwert23 Like I said I am a former atheist and former enemy of Christianity, I use to do what you do and go around look for fights to try and prove people wrong. Knowing this I understand it is pointless debating this with you, only God can change your heart. Notice how you atheists go around to every religious video attacking believers. Let me just tell you something, you are wasting your time...
DerZanDa 7 months ago
@DerZanDa Wait, I'm "looking for fights" by commenting on things that to the best of my knowledge are untruths? So by that logic I can assume you would have stood by at the slave auctions and "not tried to start fights" over human rights, or you would have gladly held your tongue in 1930's Poland as the Holocaust began?
Why should ANYONE ignore ignorance and injustice when they see it? The status quo and "peace at any price" are not something to be defended for no reason.
quwert23 7 months ago
@DerZanDa I am not an enemy of "Christianity", but of the horrors that are caused by ALL religions. At their most benign, a religion promotes blind ignorance as a virtue. It's practitioners are merely lucky if they are not pushed to the full extent of depravity possible that we see from the Judeo Christian version.
quwert23 7 months ago
@quwert23 You are comparing Christianity to the Holocaust talk about blind ignorance, we serve our communities selflessly. If there is no God which you claim to be true then how we live our lives does not really matter the least bit, as long as we aren't the dangerous crazy kind of Christians which I am not. In fact it leads to a life of morals. If it is not true then it's a completely ridiculous life style and the most foolish life one could live, but if it is then we should take note.
DerZanDa 7 months ago
@DerZanDa How we live our lives doesn't matter?! So you REALLY don't care if someone comes over and murders you then? Or are you saying I don't, simply because I don't believe in a god? Either way is ridiculously stupid. The origins of morality are not related in the least bit to religion. Your god is a murderer of babies and children, and a proponent of slavery, genocide and sexism; yet you consider morals to come from him?
quwert23 6 months ago
@quwert23 Take a deep breath, if you cause yourself too much stress you'll die early and cease to exist. We wouldn't want that to happen. And your thoughts on the Bible are the same as every other atheist and equally ignorant. To further debate with you is a complete waste of my time. I don't throw pearls to swine.
DerZanDa 6 months ago
@DerZanDa Why would you care if I cease to exist? I am a sinful, atheistic influence on all around me; my very presence dishonors God and his Holiness. You should rejoice if I perish, just like the Bible commands!
I can't help but notice that no matter how often you say you will not continue this conversation, you continue regardless. Are you perhaps beset upon by pride; the most sinful of sins? You are so prideful that you can't even allow someone to have the last word in a silly debate?
quwert23 6 months ago
@DerZanDa Nope, my thoughts are NOT all the same as every atheist, because all people are different. My thoughts are as different from Hitchens' or Dawkin's as yours are from Graham's or Strobel's or Lewis's.
Please explain how atheism is ignorant. Do you have an explanation to back up your comments?
quwert23 6 months ago
@quwert23 Quwert, we meet again! Im actually preaching through this passage and came back to this video as a reference and here you are still debating! I apologize for not getting back to your last comment... I got sidetracked and forgot, and there isnt much intelligence in arguing with a wall! ha, tho i know you think me the same. I wont say atheism is ignorant.. but atheists worship a god! Indeed they do. Have you heard the argument before or do I need explain? Hope you are well!
gosnellbc 2 days ago
@quwert23 You ARE correct that Christianity is a ridiculous lifestyle and the most foolish one we could live. It makes one wonder why you persist since you can't possibly "prove" anything about Christianity is true...
quwert23 6 months ago
@quwert23 I believe Atheism to be wrong but I don't spend my free time trying to go over there and convince those people because I know that arguing about this is a waste of precious time. Especially for you since you believe that this is the only life you get, you better get to that life because once you're dead you are completely dead... I am not blindly ignorant, and if you'd like you can see some pretty interesting views. at CARM.org. Many atheists and Christians debate there.
DerZanDa 7 months ago
@DerZanDa You serve selflessly? So you don't follow the example of the Beatitudes in Matthew which are solely about doing the right things so as to receive a reward? You don't serve "selflessly" so as to receive more jewels in your heavenly crown, or an exalted status in the heavenly kingdom? Well then, you aren't very Christian according to the Bible.
quwert23 6 months ago
@DerZanDa You are also true that this one is the only life we get. Unlike you however, I am not ONLY concerned with my own life, but with humanity as a whole. As religion is predominately a negative influence on humans I shall oppose it even when it might take away away a few minutes from my TV watching time.
quwert23 6 months ago
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quwert23 7 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@DerZanDa But just for the record, I WOULD say that I have a much better understanding of the Scriptures than 99% of most theologians. You can call it pride if you wish; I call it simply stating a fact.
quwert23 7 months ago
@gosnellbc Even if these vague prophetic scribblings were actually about the future Jesus, they did little to nothing to help the poor souls unfortunate enough to come before Christ birth, and of course nothing at all for all of the damned who weren't fortunate enough to be "chosen people" (sounds actually a little racist frankly). Of course, when you actually look at the individual "prophecies" it's easy to see they are NOT about Jesus.
quwert23 8 months ago
@gosnellbc Also, one of the meanings of the word used here, "nahvat", is to "look upon with respect". To gaze with respect at a "graven image" is edging extremely close to idolatry. To compound this is the fact that snakes were extremely common in both Egyptian and surrounding religious ideologies. For a superstitious bronze age people it would make sense to fight fire with fire; this was common.
quwert23 8 months ago
@quwert23- well my lexicon (Strong's) says the word for look there is "ra'ah" (pronouced raw-aw). And it has a number of meanings... behold, consider, discern, gaze, look, be near, percieve, regard, respect, think, and view (and that isn't all of the meanings (if providing them would help the point i would have included them, and if you would like the entire list, ill be glad to provide). But it looks like you took two of the many meanings, combined them to make them fit your assertion
gosnellbc 8 months ago
@gosnellbc People do not die from non venomous snake bites, unless they are huge constrictors that crush them to death (which do not live in the Sinai) or unless they get extremely infected, which would take quite a long time and would not be probable in these amounts. Also, enough snakes to bite this many people is just ludicrous. The "Biblical" venomous assumption comes from the description of "fiery" serpents, as well as the fact people were supposedly dying as a result of being bitten.
quwert23 8 months ago
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quwert23 8 months ago
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quwert23 8 months ago
@quwert23 that it was idol worship.. but it doesnt say to look respectfully on per say, thats just what you put together... But lets say your right. and it does mean to look respectfully on.. the next thing to do would be to look at how else the word is used. The same "Ra'ah" is used in the commonly known and quoted scripture "The Lord looks at the heart." I can assure you, if your heart is as wicked as mine, God does not worship our hearts! At best you could stretch it to say He respects/values
gosnellbc 8 months ago
@quwert23 the heart
gosnellbc 8 months ago
@gosnellbc Assuming the snake attack was true to some extent, it was probably viewed as a manifestation of the Egyptian demon Aapep, or one of the other myriad deities that used the form of a snake. It should also be realized that the majority of venomous snake bites are not lethal. This alone could easily account for the fact that many people didn't die from their wounds.
quwert23 8 months ago
@quwert23 Sure. It could have been a manifestation of the Egyptian deomon Aapep. The Israelites were crying about being rescued from Egypt, as if they wanted to go back. God could have totally been saying, "ok, you want Egypt back, your choosing Egypt over your God. Fine, here is a taste of your Egypt". Never thought about that, but great thought Quwert. I've something more to ponder! And it is realized that most snakes are not venomous. No argument there. But they aren't described as venomous
gosnellbc 8 months ago
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quwert23 8 months ago
@gosnellbc I clearly stated that "one" of the meanings was to look with respect. This is still splitting hairs however as the Hebrews are forbidden to make ANY image of anything, regardless of whether it is to worship or not.
~EXODUS 20:4 “You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth."
Notice the "or"? They are forbidden to make ANY images of ANY person or animal or thing that exist
quwert23 8 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@quwert23- I would also be willing to dialogue about any other objections that you might have. ryancv11@gmail.com. Heck, might even be willing to drive to wherever you are to talk over some coffee. May Christ cause you to live!
Ryan Ephesians 2:1-10
gosnellbc 8 months ago
"The people are dying because God is killing them".
Does no one notice what a petty, totalitarian tyrant the God of the OT is? He's going to kill everyone, UNLESS they "look" at an image of Satan on a cross; an idol in other words.
quwert23 10 months ago
"THESE PEOPLE SHOULD BE BITTEN BY SNAKES AND DIIIIEE!!!" This guy is hilarious.
quwert23 10 months ago
Hmm, Jesus is represented by...a snake? The image of Satan? So Moses made a "graven image", a direct contradiction to God's previous law, in order to heal the Hebrews from the serpents that God CAUSED to bite everyone?! WTH people? Do you not see what a stupid idea this is and how it doesn't even jive with the rest of the Bible?
quwert23 10 months ago
Very hard to listen to because it is true
OmoItsekiri 11 months ago
Excellent sermon! God bless John Piper!
Thank you for posting!
cindeemorgan 2 years ago
Many people believe the snake on the pole represted Jesus.
Reason1:
the pole would be a T Jesus was crucified on a T
Reason2: (most important) for on the cross he boor our sins
making the holy and sinless one sin not sinful but sin.
2 Corinthians 5:20 21He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.
Patternpop 2 years ago
Uh....NO
cpmower 2 years ago
Why not?
Patternpop 2 years ago
I have got to read the Old testament.
Patternpop 2 years ago
THANK YOU, THANK YOU for reposting this.
The New Testament rings so clearly through this story. The visual image of what punishment sin deserves is placed on a stick & lifted up, for us to see how toxic we are, so that we can be saved - purified of poison - by looking to (hoping & trusting in) the One Who bore the "countenance" of our sin.
fruitofspirit 2 years ago 5
love it :)
antallenr82 2 years ago 3
I like John Piper, but sometimes I wish he'd post his whole sermons instead of little snippets. I'd understand them a lot more if he did.
virgingrl4ever 2 years ago
There is a link to the entire sermon under the info. for this video. :o) It's an incredible sermon!
renewedhope1106 2 years ago 2
Sermon audio . com
And search for John Piper
Patternpop 2 years ago
This is a heavy awesome serious sermon.
Definitely need to hear it in full to get the right context and fully understand it.
Keep at it DesiringGod!
Strength in Christ Alone
LinkD3 2 years ago