Sen. Mikulski Criticizes Sen. Nelson's Abortion Amendment

[thatswhattheyis]

There are a number of people that plan on having abortions. After you have had 4 of them already, you know that number 5 is not too far off.

[2bornot2b1984]

Abortion is murder.

Anyone who disagrees doesn't understand the definition of murder.

[machine134]

@2bornot2b1984 Wrong! By definition abortion is not murder. Get your facts straight.

[2bornot2b1984]

@machine134

Killing a human is murder.

So what is left are the subjective definitions of whether or not a growing fetus is HUMAN or not.

My position is that a growing fetus IS human, your stance is that a growing fetus is NOT human.

"Get your facts straight."

Lol. Your "facts" are fully dependent on your own definition of murder.

[machine134]

@2bornot2b1984 There is a difference between what is considered ethical and legal in this country. Our supreme court has made the decision that this isn't murder and that women have the right to have abortions. Whether or not you believe it is murder is really irrelevant because the supreme court has already ruled that it isn't.

[2bornot2b1984]

@machine134

"Whether or not you believe it is murder is really irrelevant because the supreme court has already ruled that it isn't"

"Our supreme court has...blah, blah, blah"

Guess what? The supreme court once also allowed for slavery.

The court also held that the U.S. Congress had no authority to prohibit slavery in federal territories and that, because slaves were not citizens, they could not sue in court.

Just because the supreme court supports something, it doesn't mean it is right.

[2bornot2b1984]

@machine134

"There is a difference between what is considered ethical and legal in this country"

Exactly. And OFTEN what is LEGAL is not ETHICAL.

And if I feel something is legal but not ethical, guess what? I don't just go along with it because it's legal.

I will leave such ethically bereft folly to persons such as yourself.

:-)

[machine134]

@2bornot2b1984 You have no choice but to go along with it because it is LEGAL. The only choice that you might have is either protest or whine on the internet. Either way, you can't change the fact that the US Government has determined that this action is LEGAL. Whether or not you believe that it is ethical or not doesn't really matter. The courts have decided that abortion does not fit the description of murder and that is what you must abide by.

[2bornot2b1984]

@machine134

"Either way, you can't change the fact that the US Government has determined that this action is LEGAL. Whether or not you believe that it is ethical or not doesn't really matter."

At one time someone used this EXACT same argument to justify slavery.

Such an irrelevant line of reasoning.

"or whine on the internet. "

Uh...huh. But what YOU are doing of course isn't whining on the internet .Right?

Narcissist.

[machine134]

@2bornot2b1984 I've been waiting for you to present a logical argument on this issue. Presenting circular reasoning as a basis for a conclusion to an argument does not a valid argument make. Also, bringing irrelevant information does not make your argument any stronger. The basic fact here is that the courts don't view abortion as murder. Respond when you have valid argument otherwise.

[2bornot2b1984]

@machine134

"Presenting circular reasoning as a basis for a conclusion to an argument does not a valid argument make"

Lol. You got that right.

"The basic fact here is that the courts don't view abortion as murder"

I am not disagreeing with this point.

"Respond when you have valid argument otherwise."

What amazes me about people like you is you use the word :valid" as though your definition of "valid" is an empirical.

This is very simple : "Valid"... is SUBJECTIVE

[machine134]

@2bornot2b1984 In the context that valid is used in terms of arguments, which I am doing, it only means one thing. The only way for your argument to be valid if your premise(s) and conclusion are true. In your case abortion is not murder, which is the premise and conclusion of your argument. Since this statement is not true, then your argument is not valid. This is not SUBJECTIVE. Do you understand?

Just because you say something is true does not make it so.

[2bornot2b1984]

@machine134

"Since this statement is not true, then your argument is not valid."

"not true"

That depends on how you derive your PROOF of what constitutes "true"

Your definition of "true" is if the courts say it is "true"

But I disagree that makes something true. Just like it was never "true" that slavery was ok, EVN WHEN THE COURTS SUPPORTED IT.

"Just because you say something is true does not make it so."

You are REALLY fond of irony, aren't you.

[machine134]

@2bornot2b1984 If you want to go on and delude yourself into thinking that something that has been proven to be false is actually true, then go ahead. I have shown you where you are wrong and if you don't want to accept it then I feel sorry for you.

[2bornot2b1984]

@machine134

"something that has been proven to be false is actually true, then go ahead"

You have not proven my belief false. My believe is that abortion is murder because a fetus is human. You have not proven that false.

You have NOT proven that a fetus is not human. You have NOT proven that abortion is not murder.

What you have proven is that : THE COURTS RULED THAT ABORTION IS LEGAL

Which I never disagreed with in the first place.

And NO, your SUBJECTIVE OPINIONS are NOT FACTS.

[Stego2001]

It would take an asteroid smashing into the Earth to get this fool out of office.

[Nightrunner529]

News Flash: 12/20: Nelson sells his vote to the higest bidder. Reid offers 45 million for Nebraska and Nelson opens his ass for the green dildo.

[AbortionHurtsforLife]

If abortion is just like any other "minor surgery", why would anyone be ashamed of buying abortion insurance? Could it be that we all know abortion is the deliberate killing of one's very own child? This "private choice" should be privately funded! Yet, the abortion industry will sacrifice the entire health care reform in order to force the American taxpayer to pay for this brutal "right". America will have to choose which is more important, health-care or tax-payer funded abortion.

[SuperTruethat]

Why would anyone be ashamed to get any kind of medical procedure, unless it was held out as being something to be ashamed about?

Abortion is a medical procedure as valid as any other kind of medical procedure.

It saves lives of mothers every day.

When performed in the early stages of a pregnancy, it's not a fetuse or an embryo, but a mass of cells.

[AbortionHurtsforLife]

STT, what % of abortions "save lives of mothers"? Answer: ZERO! There are nearly 4,000 abortions done every day in our country, over 50 million babies killed since 1973. The loving response would be to save the lives of BOTH mother and baby. Killing is never the best "solution". Btw, re-study your biology. The baby's heart starts beating at 21 days, when most abortions do not take place until 7-10 weeks of pregnancy, so the unborn human being is most definitely NOT "just a mass of cells".

[SkepticGuy]

You may want to read up on your statistics...and your science. Sometimes there is a choice, and surprisingly enough, a lot of people out there would choose to live and procreate again.

It would be a rose colored world if we could always choose the 'loving response' and save both, but we don't live in a Hallmark made world.

Defects happen, birth control fails, shit happens. The fetus ain't a baby or an unborn human being.

[jjhays36]

I think most of us can sympathize with a fetus that will no live but when birth control fails that is the consequence one accepts when they commit the act of sex. Both the male and female need to accept responsibility and that is what is lacking today.

[AbortionHurtsforLife]

99.99999% of the time, we can save both, SkepticGuy. Sure "defects" can happen, but should we just kill everyone who is deemed "imperfect".

Let's put your thinking cap on now, if a fetus "ain't an unborn human being", exactly what is it then? An unborn ____ (what type of organism)?? Please fill in the blank with your best guess~

[SuperTruethat]

And you got that statistic where? From your ass?

And to answer for SG, 'mamal' fits nicely. Mass of cells. Mother's choice. Take your pick.

[AbortionHurtsforLife]

STT, Maternal Mortality Ratio is the ratio of the number of maternal deaths per 100,000 live births. which is 11 maternal deaths per 100,000 live births here in the United States, which is a ratio of .00011.

If you're really SuperTruth, you would be able to figure out that it is the abortion industry and their supporters who have to rely on lies and deception. In contrast, recognizing the humanity of the unborn is simply biological fact.

[SuperTruethat]

That statistics says nothing about being able to save both the mother and the fetus most of the time. Nothing.

In fact, 13% of those maternal deaths are due to unsafe and unclean abortions. Something you push on young women if you ban safe and legal abortions.

The fact is that one of the reasons maternal mortality rates are so low in the US because we have access to safe abortions.

[AbortionHurtsforLife]

How can 13% of maternal deaths be due to "unsafe and unclean" abortions when we are fully assured that abortion is a very safe, simple, routine surgical procedure?

Wow- if that statistic is supposed to convince me that abortion is good for women, you failed horribly.

Abortion is never "safe nor clean" for the thousands of unborn little baby girls killed each day by this lethal child abuse.

Speaking of women's health, what about the increased risk of breast cancer due to abortion?

[bobbybrady8]

um....it is NEVER just a 'mass of cells', you should probably do some homework on this subject. By the eighth week it is a Fetus (that means 'little one' in latin). A fetus has all the organs that you have it is only smaller. It is an embryo before this for about six weeks. The heart begins beating 21 days from conception (that is where the egg is fertilized by the sperm). It is all very scientific. And science does not lie. Most abortions happen after the 7th week. At least 75%

[SkepticGuy]

I blame America's education system, not you. Look up "Blastocyst". Interesting to note that a similar word means "single celled parasite". Just like any mammal. We ain't so special.

1993 statistics in the US show that 340,000 out of a total of 625,000 happen at or before 8 weeks. I think you can figure out the percentage from there.

Whether the heart starts beating or not is irrelavent. It's central nervous system hasn't developed and thus feels no pain.

Biology...

[AbortionHurtsforLife]

Skeptic Guy, by 8 weeks, the neuro-anatomic structures are present, including (1) a sensory nerve to feel the pain and send a message to (2) the thalamus, at the base of the brain, and (3) motor nerves that send a message back to the pain source. These are all present at 8 weeks. The pain impulse goes to the thalamus. It sends a signal down the motor nerves to pull away from the source of pain.

Are you actually researching your answers, or just "thinking" off the top of your head?

[AbortionHurtsforLife]

Wow, Skeptic, couldn't you find better stats than a 1993 source?? Here are more current numbers: 52% of all abortions occur before the 9th week of pregnancy (almost 2,000/day), 25% happen between the 9th & 10th week (about 1,000/day), 12% happen between the 11th and 12th week (450 per day), 6% happen between the 13th & 15th week, 4% happen between the 16th & 20th week, and 1% of all abortions (16,450/yr.) happen after the 20th week of pregnancy.

[bobbybrady8]

Blastocyst formation begins at day 5 after fertilization in humans, when the blastocoele opens up in the morula. Remember the hearbeat starts 21 days after fertilization. A woman does not even know she is pregnant yet at 21 days (from fertilzation). I do not know where you got your stats but planned parenthoods Guttamacher Ins Show for 1993 1,423,000 total abortions. By Eight weeks the Life has every thing you have but only smaller. Including central nervous system. It feels pain.

[SuperTruethat]

And before you even get to describing the "potential" to become a child, that argument would mean that we shouldn't even have birth control. Or do you hold with that viewpoint?

It will only sacrifice healthcare reform if the religiouis right foists their antiquated morality on what is purely a medical decision between a woman (or family) and her doctor.

[AbortionHurtsforLife]

So SST, when does "potential" human life become "real" human life? What criteria do you use to determine a person's worthiness to live?

Re: healthcare, we will soon see if abortion is more important than healthcare to the Democrat party, which prides itself as the party of the "little guy, the poor, the oppressed, the voiceless", except when it comes to the mass killing of our very own defenseless, innocent unborn children.

The humanity of the unborn is simple biology- no religion required.

[SkepticGuy]

It is simple biology...no religion required.

We are talking about fetuses, not children. Do you not realize that every month, every woman loses one of those "unborn children". It's called menstruation.

As long as the fetus is in a woman's body, it's her decision. Roe v. Wade as guaranteed that and if abortion is legal, then there is no problem with insurance paying for it.

[AbortionHurtsforLife]

Skeptic Guy, you really need to study some basic high school biology! A woman "loses" an UNFERTILIZED egg every month through menstruation, not an unborn child! Big difference!

[AbortionHurtsforLife]

At 22 weeks the baby can live outside his/her mother's body, but instead they are brutally ripped apart through abortion, which is legal through all nine months here in America. Using your logic, wouldn't you agree that once a baby has reached viability, it should be allowed to live, since it is no longer dependent on his/her mother?

Re: insurance, private "choices" should be privately funded! If you are pro-CHOICE, why should American tax payers be FORCED to pay for the bloody killing?

[SuperTruethat]

At the risk of answering for SG:

There is no sharp limit of development at which a fetus becomes viable. Only 20% to 35% of fetus's between 20 - 23 weeks in gestation survive. And even if they do survive, they often live with significant health problems.

[Bear5177]

DAMN!

Go girl!

[Francebrasil]

Well said Madam Senator..

[niknay88]

o lord, i love her. apprpriately argumentative, and she threw in a nice literary reference. she kicks ass.

[serafinetta]

You rock, Senator Mikulski!

[classc63]

EXTREMELY WELL SAID Sen. Mikulski!!!! Especially the "how about men get an abortion ridder for the women that they get pregnant...." DEAD ON!!!!!!!!!!

[AbortionHurtsforLife]

but then to be fair, shouldn't the insurance-providing father, who is paying for the procedure, have a voice in whether or not his unborn child is to be killed?

What a Freudian slip there... "DEAD ON!!!!" wow!