Questions for Trinitarians

[knightforChrist1]

written as a true Jehovah's Witness. You actually believe the church made up the doctrine of the "trinity"? Is this because the word "trinity" doesn't appear in the bible? How about we use the word, "Godhead"? That is in the bible. Can you give me the definition of that word? The historical event i which you describe only ratified the doctrine of the trinity, which is COMPLETELY BIBLICAL. Read your bible, not the Watchtower and you will find the real Truth. Jesus claimed to be God.

[howdytheresir]

@knightforChrist1 I'm a former JW,and I'm perfectly willing to discard any WT dogma that I think is in opposition to truth.However,your claims that Jesus claimed to be God are dubious.Jesus claimed that he was the Christ,the Son of God,the One whom God was working through,the servant OF God,that God was greater,that he couldn't do anything by himself and that God was with him.He never said anything like the trinity's claims anywhere!

[Glenforbes60]

@howdytheresir

John 8:58 English Standard Version (ESV) 58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.” This is the statement the LORD made to Moses in the wilderness, and Jesus applies it to himself. Nowhere in scripture does anyone claim to be God in this context, excpt maybe the antichrist in Revelation

[howdytheresir]

@knightforChrist1 Oh,and I can't chalk all that up to just a "nature" talkin'..that's too grand an inference for my comfort levels.Especially considering that fact that the "dual nature" dogma is gathered from the egregious misuse of just a few texts.Breaks my heart that Christians have been as deceived as the JW's.I'm not surprised though..it was prophesied.

[knightforChrist1]

@howdytheresir just as I thought. You don't actually READ the bible. Jesus said, "I and my Father are one". Now do the word study on the word "one". He meant what he said. He is God. Now....He is not the Father, the Father is not the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit is not Jesus,...yet all 3 are God, and there is but one God. That's the "mystery" that Paul so often comments on. Just read your bible and ask the Holy Spirit, who is a person, to reveal the Truth to you.

[howdytheresir]

@knightforChrist1 "I pray that they will all be one, just as you and I are one--as you are in me, Father, and I am in you."

the disciples being one doesn't mean they are the same "substance",and Christ prays for their "oneness" to be just as he and his father's is!That should tell you something,no?Christ in us means we AREN'T Christ just as Christ's God in him means he ISN'T God.There's only ONE God in Deut. 6:4.He's Christ's God.

[Glenforbes60]

@howdytheresir thats where you are misguided. Because of Christ's atoning death all sin in a christian's life has been taken away.

[Glenforbes60]

@howdytheresir Please explain what YOU your self mean by that

[ForGodSoLoved777]

"You love righteousness and hate wickedness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With the oil of gladness more than Your companions." (Psalm 45:7)

If you look at it closely it says "GOD, Your GOD", God, Your God? Clearly, this verse is suggesting that God has a God. It then says, "has anointed You" Putting it together we get one powerful statement: "God, Your God, has anointed You"

From here we see that God has a God and God has anointed God.

Holy Trinity can come into place can't it?

[howdytheresir]

@ForGodSoLoved777 not unless the psalm it's quoting where Solomon is called God can join the substance of God for being called God and having a God.Trinitarianism demands inconsistency.

[TheMessianicGentile]

A Question for Trinitarians : so according to their belief , Father + Son + Holy spirit = God The Creator as 1+1+1 = 3

so when Jesus was killed there was only Father + Holy spirit (left) = ?????? what ???? as only Father + Son + holy spirit can = God the creator.

can a component /part of God be killed ?? But God is immortal is He?

[livingforchrist1225]

Howdy, your interpretation of Matthew 12 has only come from reading those two verses, if you read the scripture before you will see Jesus clearly saying that if you believe in him yet deny he lives inside you, then you will die, not one or the other.

[robbieYAHU]

i like most of your questions... and all i can add or agree to is that the 3-in-one-god stories are b.sht....!!!

[digger629]

If you believe that the Scriptures are true and that there are no contradictions in Scripture, then accept this challenge.

If Scripture proclaims that there is only ONE TRUE GOD. (they do)

If there are three persons in Scripture that claim to be this one TRUE GOD & many other Scriptures testify of these claims.

Then we are driven to only one logical, Biblical conclusion> The three persons ARE the ONE GOD!

We are not asked to understand this...Just believe it.

[howdytheresir]

@digger629 I can't "just believe something" that's a "mystery" that EXPLICITLY contradicts scripture.John 17:3.Where does Jesus claim to be the true God?He contradicts you in John 17:3 as plainly as he possibly can.I would encourage you to listen to him and also to check out my videos on the holy spirit.

[howdytheresir]

@digger629 Basically,if God doesn't say in the entirety of scripture that he is one substance composed of three coequal personages..then I won't be confessing it.First I would have to pretend the bible talks about God's "essence" as triune then I would have to pretend there isn't scriptural precedent for agents to bear their sender's name and others to be called "God" or "gods." But why would I do that?

[digger629]

@howdytheresir

The word Trinity is not in the Bible...Neither is the words peanut butter or computer, yet there is such a thing as both.

You doubters want a verse that says, "Yes, I am Almighty God, & BTW, I am made up of three persons. There are no verses that come right out and say that.

But there are plenty that say that progressively.

Jesus was called GOD all through Scripture...Even the Father calls Jesus God. See Heb.1:8

I call Jesus God also.

[howdytheresir]

@digger629 Jesus was called God a couple times.Moses was called God a couple times.No Moses isn't as exalted or important or special as Jesus.Just trying to make a point.It just dumbfounds me when trinitarians are willing to pretend being called "God" as God's agent(even Moses was,again) or "god" makes someone the 2nd person of a triune substance.

[digger629]

@howdytheresir

Being called a god is not the same as being called "GOD", creator of the universe & everything else, That is exactly what Scripture calls Jesus.

Jesus very name means>God with us-Emanuel. Mat.1:23

1John 5:20 Calls Jesus the TRUE GOD

John 20:28 >Thomas calls Jesus his Lord & God.

Heb.1:8> God the Father calls Jesus God

Acts 20:28>God shed His blood - Jesus shed His blood

God created all things> Jesus created all things>Col 1:16

I'm not saying this stuff>Scripture is!

[howdytheresir]

@digger629 Moses was called God as God's agent,again.Solomon was called God as God's king and agent in a Psalm that Heb. 1:8 is actually quoting.1 John 5:20 calls Jesus's father the true God(His own testimony.Are you suggesting it 1 John contradicts John 17:3?Please study this text not just with trinitarian commentary.)I made a video on John 20:28.Please study Acts 20:28 outside the world of trinitarian commentary,again!Also,please note in all the creation texts the terms used

[howdytheresir]

@digger629 (like "dia" in John 1:3)prove Jesus was the agent THROUGH whom God created since the terms always connote the channel of an act and not the source of it.You can't isolate one text without heeding the ones that elaborate on God's position as the one creating through his Son.God(not the first person of him but simply God with no inferences butchering the texts) is the source.Similar to how he led the Israelites through the Red Sea via Moses.

[digger629]

@howdytheresir

No one, not even Scripture Itself will be able to prove the validity of the Trinity doctrine to you.

You accept as correct and unchangeable every verse dealing with God the Father being the true God but twist, reinterpret, redefine & reject every verse dealing with Jesus being called the true God.

There is only one true God... John 17:3 does not contradict 1John 5:20.

God the Father is the one true God & Jesus is that same one true God.

That's not a contradiction!

[howdytheresir]

@digger629 so when Jesus said his father was the only True God,he didn't really mean that his afther was truly the only one?Have you bothered to look up 1 John 5:20 in various bibles and through various commentaries?Your imposing your own interpretation there that contradicts John 17:3 that even most trinitarians know is probably the wrong one!

[digger629]

@howdytheresir

See what I mean about how you try to correct or deny any verse that deals with Scripture calling Jesus God? Why don't you want to correct John 17:3??? Oh, yeah, you agree with that one.

We Christians believe in only ONE TRUE GOD. We believe this ONE TRUE GOD reveals Himself in three Persons. To call each One of these Persons the ONE TRUE GOD is not a contradiction. You make it a contradiction when YOU insert your mis-quotes & heresies.

[howdytheresir]

@digger629 I'm a heretic for believing John 17:3?Thanks for that tremendous insight!

[digger629]

@howdytheresir

I never said you were a heretic for believeing John 17:3. I simply stated that you believe that verse above other verses because it supports your anti-Trinitarian views.

God's Word is ALL true, You can't exhault one verse above another (which you do) just because it supports your argument.

[howdytheresir]

@digger629 There isn't a single bible verse I don't believe..I understand there are a few that can be translated more than one way.Like 1 John 5:20 ,where most scholars admit the father is the true God.Explain to me John 17:3 please.Because it can't possibly be translated in a way where Christ says he too is true God IN ADDITION to the one he said was the ONLY one.

[digger629]

@howdytheresir

You are correct. Most schollars do believe the Father is the One True God...I believe that also. I believe John 17:3; that says the Father is the ONE TRUE GOD. I also believe John 5:20 that says Jesus is the ONE TRUE GOD. - I also believe Titus 2:13 where Jesus is called, the Great God. - 1Tim.3:16> God was manifest in the flesh. (Jesus was manifest in the flesh) - I also believe John 1:1 & 14> Jesus was the Word...the Word was God!

Why don't you believe these verses also?

[howdytheresir]

@digger629 I understand Christ is more exalted than they but God called them each "God."Not HIS God though like Jesus clearly calls his father the only true God as well as his own God.Your true God has a God he serves and worships who exists in the very same God he called his father the only one of yet he was also that true God surreptitiously?Correct?

[mbhotie715]

@howdytheresir I think Jesus was speaking as a man's point of view. He was here to be the perfect example of how we worship God. He couldnt walk around as a man and say "by the way, im really God the Son that came here in a body." There's a difference between Jesus and his status as God and his status as a man.

[howdytheresir]

@mbhotie715 but trinitarians don't think Jesus was a MAN IN PERSON,only a "nature" of one added to GOD in diapers.Where does the Most High ever say when the full limit of time arrives he will birth his second person through a womb and not be a true man,but a Yahweh infant with a "nature" that will "die" for mankind?What I find,rather,is God's spirit from on high overpowering Mary causing her to birth a human son who was a REAL man,who REALLY died.

[Danielezerable]

@howdytheresir As Sir Isaac Newton would probably say: "The Roman Church is to blame for all the evil in the world supported by their pious frauds." He was a smart man. Seems only smart people read their Bible and reject this doctrine.

[Glenforbes60]

@howdytheresir but trinitarians do believe Jesus was a man in person

[Glenforbes60]

@howdytheresir but trinitarians do believe Jesus was a man in person PS 82:6 I said, “You are gods, sons of the Most High, all of you;

the

[Glenforbes60]

@howdytheresir but trinitarians do believe Jesus was a man in person PS 82:6 I said, “You are gods, sons of the Most High, all of you;

[howdytheresir]

@digger629 hmm..I don't see the fist part of my response posted.I said Moses and Solomon were addressed as "God."Most scholars believe 1 John 5:20 is calling the FATHER true God.1 Tim 3:16 is a scribal error(do some research) and being called God does not the second person of a triune substance make unless Solomon and Moses ETC. are portions of God's substance.

[Glenforbes60]

@howdytheresir Try reading the whol ch. of Jn 17:22 The glory that you have given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one, 23 I in them and you in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that you sent me and loved them even as you loved me. 24 Father, I desire that they also, whom you have given me, may be with Esp v22 Jesus claims he and the father are one

[howdytheresir]

@digger629 It could be said that either he or Moses did..but who REALLY did?If God works THROUGH another(Acts 2:22) am I really supposed to attribute independence to that one as the only true God?If so,how and why?Please address Jesus's words at John 17:3.I know what trinitarians think about this text and I think it is simply a denial of Christ's simple and unqualified statement,inexplicable and unwarranted.Who did JESUS the entire person as opposed to a "nature" say was the ONLY True God?

[howdytheresir]

@digger629 To be frank,I can't believe you're using "Emmanuel" to try and prove Jesus is the true God.Do some research.Too many names to count would prove those having them are the True God if that's your precedent.SO many biblical names have meanings that would prove those with them are the Trur God with this ridiculous standard.

[siderespector]

Is there any meaning answering you, when you have obviously already decided what is true?

[howdytheresir]

@siderespector I asked not to find out who God is(yes..I think scripture is clear about that one!Deut 6:4,John 17:3,1 Cor 8:5,6 &15:27,28)but rather to make trinitarians think about these questions deeply.

[onlytruegod]

After Jesus had finished speaking to his disciples, he looked up toward heaven and prayed: Father, the time has come for you to bring glory to your Son, in order that he may bring glory to you. 2And you gave him power over all people, so that he would give eternal life to everyone you give him. 3Eternal life is to know you, the only true God, and to know Jesus Christ, the one you sent.

[kgxxx10]

Lastly: God does not change. Therefore for God to be Father he has always had to have had a Son. You can't be a Father without having offspring. Since God has always been Father, Jesus could not have become a Son at some point in time, he always was the Son.

[onlytruegod]

But Jesus said this in Jn 17:1-3

After Jesus had finished speaking to his disciples, he looked up toward heaven and prayed: Father, the time has come for you to bring glory to your Son, in order that he may bring glory to you. And you gave him power over all people, so that he would give eternal life to everyone you give him. Eternal life is to know you, the only true God, and to know Jesus Christ, the one you sent.

[kgxxx10]

Continued: The Church had to make a public formal declaration of the believe. The trinity is only way to resolve that there is One God, and that The Father, the Son and Holy Spirit are all God. See Heb 2:7-11, 14. By God taking on our Human nature he was able to bridge the gap we created when we sinned. We could never bridge the gap, only God could.

[kgxxx10]

Ok, first off the trinity predates Council of Nicea by over 200 years. First recorded description of it was by Athenagoras in about 170AD. And the trinity is clear from both old and new testament once you understand the concept properly. The reason why it was DOGMATICALY defined in 325 by Nicea, is that a Bishop named Arius was trying to claim that Christ was only a Man. And this was against all teaching up to this point. Since it was formally and publicly brought up for question.

[testigo211]

this guy is comfuse

[testigo211]

MBI3030 $do you believe jesus has a god and father?

[MBI3030]

nope the Eternal Son.... not "a" god because that is not in the greek text.

[TIBLISIBOY]

He certainly was of one thought and mind with the Father. Over and over Jesus taught that he was the representation of God, which is easier to accept. But he went a lot further when he said, "Before Abraham was, I AM." If he was not of divine nature, he should have been rightly killed for blasphemy.

[DrFMM]

There is only one God. And Jesus is a man and a prophet of God, not God. It is so simple!

[MBI3030]

what is misleading to people are videos like this. The Bible teaches ONE God yes but idenifies that ONE God as the Father, Son and Holy Spirit....

Is the Father God = YES

is Jesus God= YES

is the Holy Spirit God = YES

[xiaahmad]

@MBI3030

1. Father

2. Son

3. Holy ghost

they are three not one

[howdytheresir]

If you have 3 individually "true God" then you have 3 true Gods NO MATTER WHAT is said to the contary.This is a FACTUAL statement.However,if you recognize the truth..that Christ can bear the title God as a mighty one with authority and in a representational sense,similar to how Moses could only to a much greater capacity and strength,then monotheism can be preserved.

[myGodis1lord]

@howdytheresir ... Howdytheresir.

I do not believe in such a thing as the trinity, it perverts the word of God and makes God in error of His own word. However Jesus does say, Before Abraham was, I am. Declaring what God said to Moses. So is not Jesus saying I Am that I Am right there, that is the same statement God makes to Moses. I guess i dont get where you are coming from, are you a believer in one God or just like to ruffle feather, Please take no offense just would like to know

[howdytheresir]

@myGodis1lord I believe that there is Only One True God(John 17:3) and that Jesus is the Son of Him.(John 3:16)

[howdytheresir]

@myGodis1lord I have a blog on John 8:58 from January 2009 (blog linked on my page.)

[MBI3030]

the problem with this video is it assumes the "Bible" must contain certain terms to be accepted. The problem, the Bible never uses the term theology or the term Bible for thaat matter. It does not use the term monothesism either.

The Trinity is revealed revelation. Not known until the Incarnation....

[howdytheresir]

Do you have a problem defining God how he defines himself?If not,then you should have no problem recognizing Jesus as the Christ,God's son and his father as the only true God.

[MBI3030]

on the same level as the Father... once again proves out position....

[MBI3030]

ONE in nature....

[xiaahmad]

@MBI3030

then may be hinduism is right with 33 million Gods ?

[TIBLISIBOY]

Some of your questions are really assumptions phrased alternately. While there are some "experts" (that can be found in EVERY field of study) that would like all poeple to come to them for truth, people that hold to a three-in-one doctrine typically do not see theologians as the source of truth. Really it is that we are trying to make sense out of what the Bible says. When Jesus said "I and the Father are one", the people wanted to stone him because he made himself equal with God.

[howdytheresir]

The Jews said Jesus was demon possessed and breaking the Sabbath.They're not reliable folk to get your doctrine from.However,Jesus said his father was greater without any qualification that his ENTIRE being wasn't speaking AND he called his father the only True God no?So I guess I will ask..why is his own testimony not more reliable to you than the Pharisees erroneous assumptions?

[testigo211]

trinitarians doesn't have answer for this questions. lol they took vacation. they are out of this now

[MBI3030]

no we answer it but you guys never want to be corrected

[spasticmonastic]

Christian Persecution leading up to the four century was on and off. I don't think proper theological definitions and conversations were possible until peace of the church happened only abou a century before in 313.

In ancient history things took a little longer to get done. especially when it involves a large group of people.

[howdytheresir]

The point is though that scripture gives us explicitly stated formulas at Deut 6:4,John 3:16,John 17:3,1 Corinthians 8:5,6,1 Corinthains 15:27,28 (etc..on and on)that should be our creeds.All the philosophical inferrence,unbiblical language and inability to accept that others can bear the title "God" without actually BEING the same true God that made him Lord=unnecessary.Calling Jesus the firstborn Son of God is a biblically revealed truth.

[MBI3030]

true.... but there was a Truine beliefe of God very earlier. Centuries before nicea....

[spasticmonastic]

YES! thank you.

[howdytheresir]

The earliest Christians understood that Jesus could be called God in a representational role and as a mighty one in authority as this was the way it was back then.

[howdytheresir]

This is utterly false.Even Tertuallian said there was a time when the son was not and that the father was greater,the very father of your doctrine.Also,at Nicea,the holy spirit was not in the formula exactly.

[TheDallasBurns]

@howdytheresir Was that before or after Tertullian became a Montanist? Also I believe he actually never denied the deity of Christ. Also I'm certain Orgien also defended the deity of Christ. In fact I believe you can in no way that Unitarian beliefs preceeded Trinitarian beliefs. It would be foolish of you to even claim that you can

[howdytheresir]

@TheDallasBurns My point was that they were willing to say many things modern day trinitarians are not.They were also Platonically schooled,which caused them to bring manmade philosophical Greek thought into the Hebrew world,rendering Hebrew truth as no longer pure and uncorrupt.

[TheDallasBurns]

@howdytheresir How is it that you believe Trinitarians were Platonically schooled? Philisophical Greek did everything but admit the deity of Christ! They weren't willing to accept the incarnation based on Gnostic views of God, they wanted to use modalism in explaining the deity of the Son by saying he was the Father. To say that the trinitarian school of thought came from Platonistic philosophy is silly. How do you even make that connection?

[howdytheresir]

@TheDallasBurns The formulators of the doctrine(true God from true God?!in blatant explicit violation of John 17:3) were in fact Platonically schooled..research it yourself.The first century Christians worshipped Jesus's father as the only true God,Jesus as King and the one God made Lord,

[00sheilagreasley100]

@howdytheresir I totally agree with you and another question is look at Matthew 12: 31, 32 which states that a person can sin against the Son and be forgiven but if a person sins against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven - If they were the same God why sinning against one will be forgiven and the other not forgiven - Personally I think that the Holy Spirit is God's active force

Sheila

[howdytheresir]

@TheDallasBurns and they knew very well that Christ's exaltation did not mean he was coequal with and also in God's Most High spot(1 Cor 15:27,28).They also knew he had a God,failing to mention Jesus's God existed in the same being as he.What a "truth" to omit!

[howdytheresir]

@TheDallasBurns Sounds like you need to do some research frankly(of what Plato believed and of which ECF's were schooled in Platonic thought)

[howdytheresir]

@TheDallasBurns As far as finding the most ancient Hebrew truth,well Jesus let us know his father was the only True God and confirmed the Shema as true ..Did the OT Jews have three persons in their God of the Shema?

[TheDallasBurns]

@howdytheresir Actually I believe they do. The Shema states exactly what Trinitarians state and that is that there is one God. We believe there is one God but just as God said "Let us create man in our image" and "Let us go down and confuse their language" we can also see a pluralization in the Godhead. One being three persons. This is a truth found even in the O.T.

[howdytheresir]

@TheDallasBurns To suggest the OT Jews were trinitarians is absurd in the highest order..Ask the rabbis today .

[acerimmeh]

"Was it really proper for theologians to have DOGMATICALLY DEFINED what GOD HIMSELF has no expressly defined."

I really liked this question.

I think you will be hard presses getting anyone to answer 1/4 of those questions.

Good Video

[howdytheresir]

I can't take credit for that one.I think it's from the book ;)