This is most insightful! (It's cool to hear the name Pareto outside of my sociology classes, too.)
Your numerical breakdown of the community's impact is very clear and easy to understand. Thanks for posting this as a video response to the yta channel.
Thanks! Pareto doesn't get out much these days, does he?
After I did this video the whole "five facts tag" thing came about - Look at the number of those to see that I probably under-estimated the size of the community.
its going to be a huge challenge and will need a lot of creativity, flexiblity and FUNDS to get it right.. but id be behind you.. although you know how i feel about ads.. so how the new site would handle advertising would affect my participation..
Tough bandwith prices have fallen dramatically since YouTube launched, I have a hard time seeing this site actually making much profit. I might be wrong, but I got the understanding from people I spoke to at Google, that they didn't acquire Youtube first and foremost to make money.
Their long term goal it seems, is to do the same thing Microsoft did with home computers, only on the internet. To make internet synonymous with the brand name Google. Acquiring internet savvy sites like this and integrate them into their already large assortment of online services seems like a logical step towards achieving that.
Whether they'll succeed, or it'll be a good or a bad thing for the internet in general, remains to be seen.
I've heard that theory (re: Google's acquisitions) as well, but I do think there is a successful business model for hosting online video sharing. But, no, it's almost certainly not the current YT model. Thanks for your comments!
Reading trough my comment it might seem like criticism of your argument, which it really wasn't. I very much enjoy the stuff you guys are making. Especially when I can get a peek into how 'older' established guys like you and others think about stuff!
I guess my point was that YouTube ain't going anywhere, and I am pretty sure the owners acknowledge and appreciate your contributions .
I think some of the first things YT needs to fix is the damn crappy video quality. I mean comon YT has been around long enough and google has the money, so try to invest some money into making the video quality better cause it stinks, some stereo sound would be nice too.
I may be crazy, but I think the quality actually went down with one of the recent updates. A few people have mentioned that their videos are not rendering as well as they used to with the same settings. And stereo would be so easy - LiveVideo does it, why can't YT? Thanks for stopping by.
Exactly right, my main home is Livevideo, YT is just something on the side although I've had accounts here before but left like alot of people did during the mass exodus around this time last year. I just got sick of alot of the BS with YT (still am quite frankly especially the deletion of accounts with little or no reason). The video quality of LV blows YT out of the water and as you said they have stereo sound over there, thanks for the response though.
Sorry about the math. I ended up confusing myself there by the last calculation. But even without the numbers, it's a powerful concept; that the few drive the actions of the many. Thank you!
I don't know about that, one of the members of the council isn't exactly a young guy. It's a rotating position, I'm sure kenrg has a shot at getting a spot on the council, I know I'd like to see him there.
ok my changes. live video streaming like stickam. many accounts opend by one user reviewed on how they use it to take it down or contine it. not merging with another company or changing like thay thought of last time. the community is strong and filled with many great people. my exspections are held high here. have happy holidays to come and fun too. until next time take it easy. gregg
Ken, you know my true feelings about the community.
I see you addressed the General Motors reference, but a 5 or 10 year demise in this situation would involve several generations in technological development. I have no doubt that Google would be involved in that advance. And, they wouldn't have to rely on cooperation from the union for survival.
Unless...
Vloggers! You are the proletariat of YouTube! Unite and show your strength! The future is now. You are the masters of your own future!
Ah, excellent point to bring in the unions is showing how GM is different than Google/YouTube. Meanwhile, a vlogger union has been floated by others, and immediately laughed down. The web is far too libertarian in nature to allow itself to be organized in any way. Thanks for the discussion!
Regardless, YouTube is so big now that it can make occasional minor improvements to its product without fear of outside threats. I know General Motors got kicked in the ass for using that business philosophy, but this is a different market, with a giant (Google) with enough bread and enough technology to stay at least one step ahead of the rest.
GM is exactly the giant I keep thinking of. Hopefully YT will make improvements, unfortunately, they're usually in points that were working fine to begin with. They CAN stay one step ahead of the rest. The question is just if they will...
I think you underestimate the frequency of views by casual viewers. If not, then there probably is a group between them and the "hard core", reducing the significance you attribute to the "hard core".
To be truthful, I think we could probably divide it into four or even five spheres of user types, and parse out the numbers for each. But then this video would have been 35 minutes. Remember: the outer sphere of "members" are the millions of accounts that were used once, and then the person never came back. I think, on average, regardless of the actual figures, the core drives a lot more than it's given credit for. Thanks for stopping by!
Cogent points, well argued... but what else would I expect from kenrg (are you a lawyer? If not, you could be a very good one!) I agree, YouTube should be minding its business a bit better or someone will snatch their central pillar right from under their nose! I hope they wise up, I kinda like it here!
Certainly the others sites that are out there today all have their own sets of problems that keep them from being better than YT. But someday, somebody will get it just right, and that might be YT or it might be somebody else. Thanks for joining in.
I don't like the new system cause you now have to click on the video and then go to the person account to find out how old it is. I shouldn't have to click on every video I might respond to just to find out how old the video is.
I saw that - I think they're trying to hide how much the catalog of videos is aging. If a newcomer sees that everything they're watching is a year old, they might think that there's nothing happening here now. And they might be right!
You're certainly a known voice here, videos or not - and with your external sites, part of the forces that shape and mold the community. Glad you're enjoying this discussion!
Wow. when you put it like that... the fan base of this site is rather fragile when you put it like that. I love your videos Ken. You are quite possably one of those 2000 "shakers" as you called them.
Thank you. I don't think I'm quite in that group of 1,000+ opinion setters, I don't have a large enough audience for that, but maybe in the second tier. But I'm in touch with a few 1st tier people, and they're not all as happy as YT thinks they are. Yes, is is all a very fragile house of cards.
Having made that distinction, I will say I am more interested in community content on this site....I don't know what the hell I'm saying! Please make more funny, interesting and entertaining videos. Discussion videos give me a headache!!!
Thanks for the several good comments. Yes, I'm tired of having made two long talking vlogs in a row. Maybe I'll do something with cute animals tomorrow just shake this serious stuff loose.
Very good points, but another company coming along to face down the might of GoogleTube would be a high risk venture. Who's to say it wouldn't succeed though?
Exactly - Many have tried and failed, but that's no guarantee that the next one won't succeed. My goal here is just to stick a pin into YT's butt to get them to continue to innovate, continue to support community, and, if they keep it going right, to continue to be the market leader.
As far as content goes, there are distinctions that need to be made. For ease, I'll say there are two types. Content for the masses(the sheep), and community content. Now, I will say that some of community content can be appealing to the masses, but a lot isn't. The amount of content for the masses that YouTube has, seems unlimited. Search for it and there's a good chance it'll be there. Live Video, as an example, has mostly community content, much of which, I'm not interested in.
Your distinctions are well taken and true. And I think YT should acknowledge those distinctions in better defining categories and account types so that if you ARE looking for community content it's easier to find. A "most viewed" list that makes PeriUrban compete with BritneyTV is stacked from the start.
You make a fair argument, ostensibly. I sort of agree with the 800 pound gorilla theory, at the moment. It seems to me that You Tube has done a "fair" job of satisfying the community lately. The thing is, in my opinion, the value of this sight, just based on content volume makes this sight blow the others out of the water. Can YouTube blow off the community? No, but do the pros outweigh the cons? To this point, yes, in my opinion.
What I didn't get to in this video as my "brief" was becoming quite long, is that if there's nothing but "pro" content here, then what's the point? I can go to NBC(dot-com) to watch clips from The Office, or to IMDB to watch movie trailers, (etc.). It's being able to see that AND find new, unique, undiscovered talents that make YouTube great. They need both sides of the nut.
It's possible but not probable. Then when you think about it K-Mart was hit by Wal-Mart. In the 50's, packages were being delivered by Riddle Airlines flying C-46's. Then Mr. Smith purchased some French Falcon Biz Jets, and we know where that went. I bet we someday will say, "I wish I had thought of that". It's inevitable that something else will come along, and your idea could be it. Time will tell.
It's so true - Things that never seemed probable suddenly turned around our view of how things work. I just hate to see something that was so innovative two years ago lose their edge and stop growing in all the ways it could. Because other people are out there dreaming bigger dreams. Thanks for commenting!
I was trying to be conservative in my estimates ;^) - But it would be interesting to do the math for yourself, think of how many vids you watch, how many other pages you view, and think about your true value to this company and this site. CBS and Universal wouldn't be here if there weren't thousands of us waiting to consume their products.
Maybe not soon, but some day if they're not smart about it. The 800 pound gorilla I keep thinking of is General Motors. That gorilla is now sweeping out the cages for Toyota and Honda. The history of big business is littered with such examples. Goliath can never rest when there are David's born every minute.
I left out tipping point, and, more difficult, no references to the long tail. I really wanted to, but I just bit my tongue. I figured using the 80-20 rule was cliche enough. ;^)
You'd think Google would try to acquire Stickam and arrange a marriage with YT, would you? Do you know who owns them now? But, yes, they really should offer chat, it would keep us on this site 24 hours a day. Thanks again.
I think that would be a $12 million dollar investment just for the 1000 core YouTubers, right? Hardware and software could quite easily double the cost even in the beginning.
You got me on that poor multiplication on that example (damn, my trying to think while vlogging!), but I did re-check my page view calculation, and it was right. But, even so, I think the idea is the same; that YT is vulnerable to major upsets with just a handful of defectors. They know this, which is why they started the partner program just as LiveVideo was threatening them nearly a year ago.
The ironic part is that potentially Esmee could all by herself earn more than YouTube earns for Google within a couple years if she becomes a megastar.
Very true - And let's hope she does! But if YouTube wants the credit for breaking more new talents, it's got to re-instate the "Broadcast Yourself" tag-line and philosophy. Thanks!
As has been pointed out, I got the dollar total wrong on my bribe to the those 1,000, but I think the concept is valid. 1,000 opinion makers and community leaders, if approached correctly, could cause a major upheaval here. Not that I'm hoping that happens... but it could ;^)
One part of the site that needs an overhaul is community groups. We run a successful group called classic bikes, but it's hard to manage. No email notification, the messageboard stinks, you have to check every day.
I've pretty much given up on the group I manage because of the lousy group tools here. Just another example of where they could do so much with existing technology and just fall down again and again. Thanks for watching!
I know the community can and will survive, perhaps in different sections in different place, but our connections are bigger than the site that hosts us. I've seen in in other text-based community sites that have split. Or, they could be listening, and they could be planning ways to improve the community tools. YT: You know where to reach me too - let's do lunch...
Right on! Youtube is going corporate to quickly and will begin losing "us" viewers/subscribers. When that begins to happen,the up-starts will begin to erode Youtubes bottomline. We watched it happen to Yahoo with their groups. I myself had 32 Yahoo groups with over 250,000 members. One day Yahoo closed my account, no warning..The same is now happening with Youtube, closed accounts.
Yahoo's groups, but also Yahoo's dominance as the "one" search engine... till Google came around. And not just on the web - think of General Motors laughing at Honda and Toyota thirty years ago. It doesn't matter how big you are, or how few competitors you have, it takes effort to stay on top. Thanks for commenting!
I'll tell you what though: I sure don't miss the early (early) days where I would spend at least twenty or thirty minutes fighting with aggressive ad *pages*--not even popups, but whole *pages* with nothing but an ad on them--I have a really old, slow computer, so while pages were loading, this would take over.
Imagine spending 45 minutes just to watch one Bohe3m3 or Pippistrello vid--that's what I would have to do. I'd have another window open doing LiveJournal, which ran just fine, (which is now , ironically, having more and more ads on it as well--web sites want to make money, who knew?)
I'm definitely not negating what you and others are saying, YT most certainly needs to listen more, but I'm just sayin', is all.
boy, if i were google i would have my eyes/ears on you consistently. i hope they are listening. i'm not sure about those numbers for the community, remember there are alot of folks out here with "dummy" accounts, so that screws the "real" community numbers abit i would imagine, yes?
excellent points- you and pappy, two smarty pants! :)
what i meant about the "real" community numbers is that google may be using the "dummy" accounts to their advantage? so the "real" numbers may be alot lower?
I gave the 15,000 number to take into account only real individual beings, and not dummy accounts, etc. It's the dummy accountants and passers-by that drives it up into the multi-millions. But you're right, the real numbers are closely guarded, and this is all guesses and conjecture. But let them tell us the real data and put us in our place!
I am in total agreement with you, but I'm not sure about your math. One thousand dollars a month for a year for one thousand people comes out to $12 million. (1000 * 1000 * 12 = 12,000,000) I know that's being picky, but that's not quite as "small" an investment as you suggest.
You're right. Oops, that's what I get for trying to come up with more figures six minutes into a vlog. But the point remains the same; compared to the money that stands to be made, an investment in certain people could be very well worthwhile. Whether that investment is from YT or a competitor.
I agree, but it does set the bar a bit higher. At any rate, I hate to be a nit-picker especially since the math really doesn't change the validity of the point you made in your video!
I think the community is fine, actually. I just looked at the front page, and it is predominantly featuring videos made by smaller users. I really don't see what all the fuss is about. I can still stay in touch with all my "friends" and the circle grows larger by the day. Do you have any SPECIFICS you want to talk about?
I'm mostly talking about technical problems that have been listed in a thousand other videos (message systems don't work, little control over how our channels display, facilities for better collaboration, etc.). As it is, the community works because WE make it work, not because they make it work.
Have you been getting ideas from my latest vid? ;-D
Anime-watchers and horny males are probably hitting a lot also, though. But the anime is mostly copyright violations and who wants to cater only to the horny?
Effectively bring an end to the community? NO! The community exists independantly of this site! And you sure said it - ORIGINAL CONTENT!
The original content we provide is what gives the whole thing legitimacy as being anything other than a medium for ads from the networks, studios, and record companies. Thanks for your feedback!
Good point! The word of mouth you talked about has already worked to Stickam's advantage, in fact. My guess is that the only reason it hasn't served LiveVideo better is that they ultimately weren't able to compete. Stickam, at least, has something unique to offer that YT doesn't.
Nice to see you doing this type of vlogging again, btw.
Thanks - I guess I hadn't done straight talking-head vlogs for a while (I got bored with doing them). There are other reasons why LiveVideo failed the first time round, and YT knows what they are and why it may not apply the second time around.
But, even so, if you're subbed to that many people, you're being fed plenty of advertising here - You are valuable to YouTube, even if they don't think you are.
Hi Ken, this sounds very clear but still is based on assumptions. Maybe this site won't miss us at all and is fine with all their commercial and anime fans I would like to have some statistics to prove your theory.
I'll see if I can come up with any hard data to back up the theories presented here. Right now it's mostly anecdotal, and based on conversations I've had with various members over the past several months. I could be completely off-base, but can YT take that risk?
For them we do not count in clickrates but as a community to give their product a 'look and feel'. That's what every company tries to built a afn community around their product...
Ironically in this case we have been here before they even noticed that they will need us one day for this purpose ;-)
Yes, absolutely! I didn't really get into our value to YT (or to some other company) as evangelists for vlogging and viral video, but that's kind of what I leaning toward. The core community is the driving force here in so many ways, and although YT is certainly smart enough to understand that, they often seem not to. Thanks!
Yes, LiveVideo tried... and YT countered with the first partner program when they purchased the loyalty of those trend setters to remain here, for one year. That year is just about up, and LV is about to release their version 2.0 which, rumor has it, includes live video chat. Round two, anybody?
Ken, while I agree in the main with what you're saying, I left for LV for a little while, not because of dissatisfaction with YT but because of haters, and while I found it a great site technologically (I could upload bigger files--which would be nice if YT would give US bigger file sizes!)
cont--while I found it nice because of these things, I found myself really missing everyone here--not enough people on LV into the same stuff as me, too many boring people (sorry LVers I was subbed to, but the truth's the truth.) And since different people want different things from a vlog site--
cont--who's to say that everyone will go to the same "Promised Land" site? Will I then have to keep track of 40 people spread over six different vlog sites? Rather than face that whole "breakin' up dat ole' gang of mine" thing, I might re-examine my whole
cont--commitment to vlogging and watching vlogs entirely (all this coming from someone who currently doesn't vlog due to technical difficulties, I know)and just go back to LiveJournal or something.
Wow, I spammed the hell out of you (I can't make vids right now, or I would've vidded this), sorry. And I don't entirely disagree, YT needs to listen, just puttin' some thoughts out there. Thanks, Ken.
This is the best video on this whole deal that I've seen so far. At the last video you mostly stated things that I was thinking about myself, but this time you've added several very interesting points. I wish YT would wise up to your way of thinking, though I doubt they will.
Great analysis, Ken. Even though it is largely speculative, I suspect it is largely true. I have always had the impression that YouTube's founders stumbled on success and had not thought through what to do with it. They need a visionary. The thing is, they have a couple of thousand of them working for free.
True, my numbers are entirely speculative, because they guard the real figures so jealously. But I think my estimates are probably conservative, if anything. They could still get it right; they've been lucky before.
Wow, Ken! You've really been giving this a lot of thought. Please be sure to let those of us in the peanut gallery know where to find you when you get that sweet offer. :)
Well, you can always find me at kenrgpresents (dot-com), regardless of where the videos are hosted. But, hopefully, YT will survive and I'll still be here as well. Thanks!
1000 people wouldn't have that much of an inpact. There's a thing called brand loyality and people don't just change like that. Besides it would take another site months before it could even have 20% of the "video warehouse" that youtube has become, besides the small community.
1,000 people in general, not so much. 1,000 of the right people, however, can be a very powerful thing. It would be tricky and have to be played just right, but I believe it could be done.
Now that would be funny - if they featured a video showing the formula for a competitor to steal away their community. Of course, if they really are sick of us, maybe they will!
If they were confident, they could do just that. I like the idea that featured videos could be about any topic, even ones that go against the company featuring them. Once this isn't the case, then the you is no longer in you tube. They did already take away the "broadcast yourself" line.
I've applied for partnership too - Of course, when they see this video they'll turn me down for certain ;^)
The thing is; partnership should be open to anybody who plays by the rules (no porn, respect copyright, etc.). If partnership will motivate loyalty, what have they got to lose?
All great points and very well stated. I think your numbers are a bit conservative, as you said, which makes the ideas in this video even more powerful.
You're right, if I used 50 clicks per day and 25,000 community members it would have been even more powerful, but even the conservative estimates show that we are a vital interest to the company. Thanks!
Thanks for articulating such an important point - the "free" accounts, bandwidth and space equate to an absurd amount of unique clicks - the exact metrics that advertisers use when deciding to cough up their marketing budget. We're all having a good time down here, we're aware of what we bring to the table and most folks just want the tools to bring more people to the party - I'd think they would love that prospect?
I am personally really bad about clicking on ads. I've maybe clicked on one before ever, but I guess not everyone is like me. I need to do better to preserve the community
Very interesting breakdown, ken. There is power in community.
Minniver 4 years ago
Tremendous power... and tremendous opportunity for whichever video site gets it right.
kenrg 4 years ago
This is most insightful! (It's cool to hear the name Pareto outside of my sociology classes, too.)
Your numerical breakdown of the community's impact is very clear and easy to understand. Thanks for posting this as a video response to the yta channel.
lisasimpson 4 years ago
Thanks! Pareto doesn't get out much these days, does he?
After I did this video the whole "five facts tag" thing came about - Look at the number of those to see that I probably under-estimated the size of the community.
kenrg 4 years ago
To put it simply I agree.
crawleykakes 4 years ago
Thanks!
kenrg 4 years ago
Wow,thanks you put this so eloquently!
gleegirloz 4 years ago
Thank you!
kenrg 4 years ago
Another great discussion video, kenrg. Thanks for providing more grist for the mill! x
divalolo 4 years ago
Thank you. Yep, we're all just mill grist to the folks at YT ;^)
kenrg 4 years ago
Leetle teeny tiny grains to be ground down and down into dust and made into rough oat cakes for the network television executives after-dinner brie.
divalolo 4 years ago
very interesting idea ken.. i wonder if you have thought about starting that site yourself..
taragolden 4 years ago
Who me? Ssshhhh.... it's top secret right now.
kenrg 4 years ago
its going to be a huge challenge and will need a lot of creativity, flexiblity and FUNDS to get it right.. but id be behind you.. although you know how i feel about ads.. so how the new site would handle advertising would affect my participation..
taragolden 4 years ago
This is really well thought out and very good to hear. Be well & take care - wylie
wylieweeks 4 years ago
Thanks for watching both videos - Glad you got something out of them. Take care.
kenrg 4 years ago
very good video....
drumsynth59 4 years ago
Thanks!
kenrg 4 years ago
Tough bandwith prices have fallen dramatically since YouTube launched, I have a hard time seeing this site actually making much profit. I might be wrong, but I got the understanding from people I spoke to at Google, that they didn't acquire Youtube first and foremost to make money.
Cont.
boredtodeathwth 4 years ago
Their long term goal it seems, is to do the same thing Microsoft did with home computers, only on the internet. To make internet synonymous with the brand name Google. Acquiring internet savvy sites like this and integrate them into their already large assortment of online services seems like a logical step towards achieving that.
Whether they'll succeed, or it'll be a good or a bad thing for the internet in general, remains to be seen.
boredtodeathwth 4 years ago
I've heard that theory (re: Google's acquisitions) as well, but I do think there is a successful business model for hosting online video sharing. But, no, it's almost certainly not the current YT model. Thanks for your comments!
kenrg 4 years ago
Reading trough my comment it might seem like criticism of your argument, which it really wasn't. I very much enjoy the stuff you guys are making. Especially when I can get a peek into how 'older' established guys like you and others think about stuff!
I guess my point was that YouTube ain't going anywhere, and I am pretty sure the owners acknowledge and appreciate your contributions .
boredtodeathwth 4 years ago
Very good points.
JustA11en 4 years ago
Thanks!
kenrg 4 years ago
UR a FuCkiNg SmArT DooD
McLovinYourMom 4 years ago
I been edumacated!
kenrg 4 years ago
I think some of the first things YT needs to fix is the damn crappy video quality. I mean comon YT has been around long enough and google has the money, so try to invest some money into making the video quality better cause it stinks, some stereo sound would be nice too.
XxRogueAngelxX 4 years ago
I may be crazy, but I think the quality actually went down with one of the recent updates. A few people have mentioned that their videos are not rendering as well as they used to with the same settings. And stereo would be so easy - LiveVideo does it, why can't YT? Thanks for stopping by.
kenrg 4 years ago
Exactly right, my main home is Livevideo, YT is just something on the side although I've had accounts here before but left like alot of people did during the mass exodus around this time last year. I just got sick of alot of the BS with YT (still am quite frankly especially the deletion of accounts with little or no reason). The video quality of LV blows YT out of the water and as you said they have stereo sound over there, thanks for the response though.
XxRogueAngelxX 4 years ago
You make some great points.
JohnCocktoston 4 years ago
Thank you.
kenrg 4 years ago
oh my god! so many numbers in my mind! but very interesting :) keep up the good work. greetings from germany! ralf
ralfonzo83 4 years ago
Sorry about the math. I ended up confusing myself there by the last calculation. But even without the numbers, it's a powerful concept; that the few drive the actions of the many. Thank you!
kenrg 4 years ago
I agree with you 100 % Kenrg. The "community" is on the verge of extinction.
Happy Holidays
Wohosky 4 years ago
Hopefully not extinction, but migration is a real possibility. We'll see where we are in six months... Thanks!
kenrg 4 years ago
Good job throwing ideas out there.
TAYC34 4 years ago
Thank you!
kenrg 4 years ago
Why isn't kenrg on the community council?
MBRHIndustries 4 years ago
Too much of a trouble-maker. And I live too close to headquarters; I'd be over there every other day complaining about something or another.
kenrg 4 years ago
YT probably wanted to keep the avg age low - look for him in a future council!
OhhhThatGuy 4 years ago
I don't know about that, one of the members of the council isn't exactly a young guy. It's a rotating position, I'm sure kenrg has a shot at getting a spot on the council, I know I'd like to see him there.
pcgod8 4 years ago
YouTube is sitting on a gold mine and they're selling lemonade on top of it.
Justinmazing 4 years ago
Nicely put! Thanks for stopping by.
kenrg 4 years ago
ok my changes. live video streaming like stickam. many accounts opend by one user reviewed on how they use it to take it down or contine it. not merging with another company or changing like thay thought of last time. the community is strong and filled with many great people. my exspections are held high here. have happy holidays to come and fun too. until next time take it easy. gregg
twister7boy 4 years ago
Yes, the community is filled with great people - it's all about the people; the platform is almost incidental. Thanks for commenting.
kenrg 4 years ago
hay ken ill message you comment to long. gregg
twister7boy 4 years ago
Great - I'll look for that.
kenrg 4 years ago
Ken, you know my true feelings about the community.
I see you addressed the General Motors reference, but a 5 or 10 year demise in this situation would involve several generations in technological development. I have no doubt that Google would be involved in that advance. And, they wouldn't have to rely on cooperation from the union for survival.
Unless...
Vloggers! You are the proletariat of YouTube! Unite and show your strength! The future is now. You are the masters of your own future!
30andout 4 years ago
Ah, excellent point to bring in the unions is showing how GM is different than Google/YouTube. Meanwhile, a vlogger union has been floated by others, and immediately laughed down. The web is far too libertarian in nature to allow itself to be organized in any way. Thanks for the discussion!
kenrg 4 years ago
The union was an analogy. The unity comes in action... perhaps that espoused by a certain grass roots leader from Santa Cruz.
30andout 4 years ago
Regardless, YouTube is so big now that it can make occasional minor improvements to its product without fear of outside threats. I know General Motors got kicked in the ass for using that business philosophy, but this is a different market, with a giant (Google) with enough bread and enough technology to stay at least one step ahead of the rest.
30andout 4 years ago
GM is exactly the giant I keep thinking of. Hopefully YT will make improvements, unfortunately, they're usually in points that were working fine to begin with. They CAN stay one step ahead of the rest. The question is just if they will...
kenrg 4 years ago
I think you underestimate the frequency of views by casual viewers. If not, then there probably is a group between them and the "hard core", reducing the significance you attribute to the "hard core".
30andout 4 years ago
To be truthful, I think we could probably divide it into four or even five spheres of user types, and parse out the numbers for each. But then this video would have been 35 minutes. Remember: the outer sphere of "members" are the millions of accounts that were used once, and then the person never came back. I think, on average, regardless of the actual figures, the core drives a lot more than it's given credit for. Thanks for stopping by!
kenrg 4 years ago
Cogent points, well argued... but what else would I expect from kenrg (are you a lawyer? If not, you could be a very good one!) I agree, YouTube should be minding its business a bit better or someone will snatch their central pillar right from under their nose! I hope they wise up, I kinda like it here!
juliact 4 years ago
Thanks, I like it here too! I just want to keep it that way. And, no, I'm not a lawyer, I just play one on YouTube ;^)
kenrg 4 years ago
who is to say that the next site wont have the same damn problems?
i am excited about the one that would supposedly combine YT and stickam.
great vid. and yeah bandwagon effect is huge on this site...
achampag 4 years ago
Certainly the others sites that are out there today all have their own sets of problems that keep them from being better than YT. But someday, somebody will get it just right, and that might be YT or it might be somebody else. Thanks for joining in.
kenrg 4 years ago
I don't like the new system cause you now have to click on the video and then go to the person account to find out how old it is. I shouldn't have to click on every video I might respond to just to find out how old the video is.
Klingonmastr 4 years ago
I saw that - I think they're trying to hide how much the catalog of videos is aging. If a newcomer sees that everything they're watching is a year old, they might think that there's nothing happening here now. And they might be right!
kenrg 4 years ago
I don't make videos, but I AM Hardcore!
Very good video and the discussion in the comments is excellent!
KennyWrites 4 years ago
You're certainly a known voice here, videos or not - and with your external sites, part of the forces that shape and mold the community. Glad you're enjoying this discussion!
kenrg 4 years ago
Does that mean we are Hardcore? Can't we get banned for that? lol
geezerart 4 years ago
Bet you'd never be calling yourself hardcore in 2008? But you are - and so am I. There, now we'll each have to be banned. ;^)
kenrg 4 years ago
Wow. when you put it like that... the fan base of this site is rather fragile when you put it like that. I love your videos Ken. You are quite possably one of those 2000 "shakers" as you called them.
-C
sweetdaddycoconut 4 years ago
Wow... I said "when you put it like that" twice... Sleep deprevation is kicking in lol.
sweetdaddycoconut 4 years ago
Thank you. I don't think I'm quite in that group of 1,000+ opinion setters, I don't have a large enough audience for that, but maybe in the second tier. But I'm in touch with a few 1st tier people, and they're not all as happy as YT thinks they are. Yes, is is all a very fragile house of cards.
kenrg 4 years ago
Having made that distinction, I will say I am more interested in community content on this site....I don't know what the hell I'm saying! Please make more funny, interesting and entertaining videos. Discussion videos give me a headache!!!
brignoni68 4 years ago
Thanks for the several good comments. Yes, I'm tired of having made two long talking vlogs in a row. Maybe I'll do something with cute animals tomorrow just shake this serious stuff loose.
kenrg 4 years ago
Very good points, but another company coming along to face down the might of GoogleTube would be a high risk venture. Who's to say it wouldn't succeed though?
TamHickey67 4 years ago
Exactly - Many have tried and failed, but that's no guarantee that the next one won't succeed. My goal here is just to stick a pin into YT's butt to get them to continue to innovate, continue to support community, and, if they keep it going right, to continue to be the market leader.
kenrg 4 years ago
As far as content goes, there are distinctions that need to be made. For ease, I'll say there are two types. Content for the masses(the sheep), and community content. Now, I will say that some of community content can be appealing to the masses, but a lot isn't. The amount of content for the masses that YouTube has, seems unlimited. Search for it and there's a good chance it'll be there. Live Video, as an example, has mostly community content, much of which, I'm not interested in.
brignoni68 4 years ago
Your distinctions are well taken and true. And I think YT should acknowledge those distinctions in better defining categories and account types so that if you ARE looking for community content it's easier to find. A "most viewed" list that makes PeriUrban compete with BritneyTV is stacked from the start.
kenrg 4 years ago
You make a fair argument, ostensibly. I sort of agree with the 800 pound gorilla theory, at the moment. It seems to me that You Tube has done a "fair" job of satisfying the community lately. The thing is, in my opinion, the value of this sight, just based on content volume makes this sight blow the others out of the water. Can YouTube blow off the community? No, but do the pros outweigh the cons? To this point, yes, in my opinion.
brignoni68 4 years ago
What I didn't get to in this video as my "brief" was becoming quite long, is that if there's nothing but "pro" content here, then what's the point? I can go to NBC(dot-com) to watch clips from The Office, or to IMDB to watch movie trailers, (etc.). It's being able to see that AND find new, unique, undiscovered talents that make YouTube great. They need both sides of the nut.
kenrg 4 years ago
It's possible but not probable. Then when you think about it K-Mart was hit by Wal-Mart. In the 50's, packages were being delivered by Riddle Airlines flying C-46's. Then Mr. Smith purchased some French Falcon Biz Jets, and we know where that went. I bet we someday will say, "I wish I had thought of that". It's inevitable that something else will come along, and your idea could be it. Time will tell.
ockteby 4 years ago
It's so true - Things that never seemed probable suddenly turned around our view of how things work. I just hate to see something that was so innovative two years ago lose their edge and stop growing in all the ways it could. Because other people are out there dreaming bigger dreams. Thanks for commenting!
kenrg 4 years ago
There ya' go. I guess I'm hard-core, but I click 7 days per week.
firefare 4 years ago
I was trying to be conservative in my estimates ;^) - But it would be interesting to do the math for yourself, think of how many vids you watch, how many other pages you view, and think about your true value to this company and this site. CBS and Universal wouldn't be here if there weren't thousands of us waiting to consume their products.
kenrg 4 years ago
Hey Kenrg:
Remember the old business principle that says you can't mess with the "800 pound gorilla"?
Like it or not, You Tube is the 800 pound gorilla in this game, no one's gonna topple him any time soon (in my humble yet cynical opinion)...
owneroftheinternet 4 years ago
Maybe not soon, but some day if they're not smart about it. The 800 pound gorilla I keep thinking of is General Motors. That gorilla is now sweeping out the cages for Toyota and Honda. The history of big business is littered with such examples. Goliath can never rest when there are David's born every minute.
kenrg 4 years ago
Watch out for Japanese You Tube Clones!!! LOL...just kidding around, I obviously want what's best for the "community" :)
owneroftheinternet 4 years ago
Oh kenrg, a fine, closely-reasoned vid - AND you did it without once using the words tipping point! Congratulations.
not2tees 4 years ago
Hear, hear!
KobyBrandt 4 years ago
I left out tipping point, and, more difficult, no references to the long tail. I really wanted to, but I just bit my tongue. I figured using the 80-20 rule was cliche enough. ;^)
kenrg 4 years ago
dang good points! :-)
LukaIsntLuka 4 years ago
Thank you!
kenrg 4 years ago
I always wondered why YT did not offer chat. They let everyone go to Stickam. Have no idea why.
ProductPlacer 4 years ago
exactly productplacer
dogfraps111 4 years ago
You'd think Google would try to acquire Stickam and arrange a marriage with YT, would you? Do you know who owns them now? But, yes, they really should offer chat, it would keep us on this site 24 hours a day. Thanks again.
kenrg 4 years ago
I think that would be a $12 million dollar investment just for the 1000 core YouTubers, right? Hardware and software could quite easily double the cost even in the beginning.
ProductPlacer 4 years ago
You got me on that poor multiplication on that example (damn, my trying to think while vlogging!), but I did re-check my page view calculation, and it was right. But, even so, I think the idea is the same; that YT is vulnerable to major upsets with just a handful of defectors. They know this, which is why they started the partner program just as LiveVideo was threatening them nearly a year ago.
kenrg 4 years ago
The ironic part is that potentially Esmee could all by herself earn more than YouTube earns for Google within a couple years if she becomes a megastar.
ProductPlacer 4 years ago
Very true - And let's hope she does! But if YouTube wants the credit for breaking more new talents, it's got to re-instate the "Broadcast Yourself" tag-line and philosophy. Thanks!
kenrg 4 years ago
Wow! Interesting hypotheticals. 1,000 people.
(Again I groaned coming to your video from Stacie's but GOOD VID!)
Gimmeabreakman 4 years ago
As has been pointed out, I got the dollar total wrong on my bribe to the those 1,000, but I think the concept is valid. 1,000 opinion makers and community leaders, if approached correctly, could cause a major upheaval here. Not that I'm hoping that happens... but it could ;^)
kenrg 4 years ago
Yeah, I noticed it too, but it is still a feasible investment.Hell, if 100 people that interacted with left...I'd go.
Gimmeabreakman 4 years ago
Kenrg, do you have any IM programs? It would be great to discuss some things in real time.
fallofautumndistro 4 years ago
I don't usually use any IM programs, but I've got Skype and Stickam accounts - PM me and we'll set up a time.
kenrg 4 years ago
One part of the site that needs an overhaul is community groups. We run a successful group called classic bikes, but it's hard to manage. No email notification, the messageboard stinks, you have to check every day.
yellowlabrador 4 years ago
I've pretty much given up on the group I manage because of the lousy group tools here. Just another example of where they could do so much with existing technology and just fall down again and again. Thanks for watching!
kenrg 4 years ago
I know the community can and will survive, perhaps in different sections in different place, but our connections are bigger than the site that hosts us. I've seen in in other text-based community sites that have split. Or, they could be listening, and they could be planning ways to improve the community tools. YT: You know where to reach me too - let's do lunch...
kenrg 4 years ago
Right on! Youtube is going corporate to quickly and will begin losing "us" viewers/subscribers. When that begins to happen,the up-starts will begin to erode Youtubes bottomline. We watched it happen to Yahoo with their groups. I myself had 32 Yahoo groups with over 250,000 members. One day Yahoo closed my account, no warning..The same is now happening with Youtube, closed accounts.
winelovrs1968 4 years ago
Yahoo's groups, but also Yahoo's dominance as the "one" search engine... till Google came around. And not just on the web - think of General Motors laughing at Honda and Toyota thirty years ago. It doesn't matter how big you are, or how few competitors you have, it takes effort to stay on top. Thanks for commenting!
kenrg 4 years ago
I'll tell you what though: I sure don't miss the early (early) days where I would spend at least twenty or thirty minutes fighting with aggressive ad *pages*--not even popups, but whole *pages* with nothing but an ad on them--I have a really old, slow computer, so while pages were loading, this would take over.
Hermgirl666 4 years ago
Imagine spending 45 minutes just to watch one Bohe3m3 or Pippistrello vid--that's what I would have to do. I'd have another window open doing LiveJournal, which ran just fine, (which is now , ironically, having more and more ads on it as well--web sites want to make money, who knew?)
I'm definitely not negating what you and others are saying, YT most certainly needs to listen more, but I'm just sayin', is all.
Hermgirl666 4 years ago
Beautiful.
periurban 4 years ago
Thank you.
kenrg 4 years ago
wait...aren't you a.. a... a...partner peri?
DoctorMetropolis 4 years ago
I should think NOT my good man!
periurban 4 years ago
boy, if i were google i would have my eyes/ears on you consistently. i hope they are listening. i'm not sure about those numbers for the community, remember there are alot of folks out here with "dummy" accounts, so that screws the "real" community numbers abit i would imagine, yes?
excellent points- you and pappy, two smarty pants! :)
absinthedrunk 4 years ago
what i meant about the "real" community numbers is that google may be using the "dummy" accounts to their advantage? so the "real" numbers may be alot lower?
absinthedrunk 4 years ago
I gave the 15,000 number to take into account only real individual beings, and not dummy accounts, etc. It's the dummy accountants and passers-by that drives it up into the multi-millions. But you're right, the real numbers are closely guarded, and this is all guesses and conjecture. But let them tell us the real data and put us in our place!
kenrg 4 years ago
I am in total agreement with you, but I'm not sure about your math. One thousand dollars a month for a year for one thousand people comes out to $12 million. (1000 * 1000 * 12 = 12,000,000) I know that's being picky, but that's not quite as "small" an investment as you suggest.
blackturtleus 4 years ago
You're right. Oops, that's what I get for trying to come up with more figures six minutes into a vlog. But the point remains the same; compared to the money that stands to be made, an investment in certain people could be very well worthwhile. Whether that investment is from YT or a competitor.
kenrg 4 years ago
I agree, but it does set the bar a bit higher. At any rate, I hate to be a nit-picker especially since the math really doesn't change the validity of the point you made in your video!
blackturtleus 4 years ago
Yep, yes, absolutely, right, yup. Ok, I would love to disagree, but I can't! LOL
rextangle 4 years ago
Oh, go on. You can find something to disagree with. Really. What about the dirty shirt I was wearing? Nasty, right?
kenrg 4 years ago
I thought the shirt was a part of the story!
rextangle 4 years ago
wait..aren't you a partner rex?
DoctorMetropolis 4 years ago
Partner with the E.T.A. you mean?
rextangle 4 years ago
I think the community is fine, actually. I just looked at the front page, and it is predominantly featuring videos made by smaller users. I really don't see what all the fuss is about. I can still stay in touch with all my "friends" and the circle grows larger by the day. Do you have any SPECIFICS you want to talk about?
morfeene2 4 years ago
I'm mostly talking about technical problems that have been listed in a thousand other videos (message systems don't work, little control over how our channels display, facilities for better collaboration, etc.). As it is, the community works because WE make it work, not because they make it work.
kenrg 4 years ago
Have you been getting ideas from my latest vid? ;-D
Anime-watchers and horny males are probably hitting a lot also, though. But the anime is mostly copyright violations and who wants to cater only to the horny?
Effectively bring an end to the community? NO! The community exists independantly of this site! And you sure said it - ORIGINAL CONTENT!
Marihani 4 years ago
The original content we provide is what gives the whole thing legitimacy as being anything other than a medium for ads from the networks, studios, and record companies. Thanks for your feedback!
kenrg 4 years ago
Good point! The word of mouth you talked about has already worked to Stickam's advantage, in fact. My guess is that the only reason it hasn't served LiveVideo better is that they ultimately weren't able to compete. Stickam, at least, has something unique to offer that YT doesn't.
Nice to see you doing this type of vlogging again, btw.
OhCurt 4 years ago
Thanks - I guess I hadn't done straight talking-head vlogs for a while (I got bored with doing them). There are other reasons why LiveVideo failed the first time round, and YT knows what they are and why it may not apply the second time around.
kenrg 4 years ago
wait...aren't you a partner OC?
DoctorMetropolis 4 years ago
I applied just for the heck of it, but I expect to be turned down. They would likely take issue with a couple EMI tunes I used a while back.
OhCurt 4 years ago
Ya Pirate!! ( I like pirates )
DoctorMetropolis 4 years ago
I've applied for my rejection too. We'll form a reject club together.
kenrg 4 years ago
OOOH, I like that idea. We can create a whole new elitist group.
>8-D
OhCurt 4 years ago
I am one of these people and yet no one is rating/commenting on my channel. I sub to 225 channels so i watch alot of videos and comment/rate daily!!
Texasred63 4 years ago
But, even so, if you're subbed to that many people, you're being fed plenty of advertising here - You are valuable to YouTube, even if they don't think you are.
kenrg 4 years ago
true but i never look at the ads.
Texasred63 4 years ago
Hi Ken, this sounds very clear but still is based on assumptions. Maybe this site won't miss us at all and is fine with all their commercial and anime fans I would like to have some statistics to prove your theory.
mixedpixel 4 years ago
I'll see if I can come up with any hard data to back up the theories presented here. Right now it's mostly anecdotal, and based on conversations I've had with various members over the past several months. I could be completely off-base, but can YT take that risk?
kenrg 4 years ago
For them we do not count in clickrates but as a community to give their product a 'look and feel'. That's what every company tries to built a afn community around their product...
Ironically in this case we have been here before they even noticed that they will need us one day for this purpose ;-)
mixedpixel 4 years ago
If you have some time, watch the vodeo i sent you yesterday and listen to what the NIKE-man said in it. It's exactly the same here...
mixedpixel 4 years ago
and sorry for the typos - no i wasn't in a bar though the time fits perfect here in potsdam ;-)
mixedpixel 4 years ago
Yes, absolutely! I didn't really get into our value to YT (or to some other company) as evangelists for vlogging and viral video, but that's kind of what I leaning toward. The core community is the driving force here in so many ways, and although YT is certainly smart enough to understand that, they often seem not to. Thanks!
kenrg 4 years ago
Good video with some interesting points. i'd like to believe your influential '1000' hypothesis but didn't LiveVideo try that and fail?
I definately agree that the life and vibe of YouTube is supplied by the community and everyone else, including the corporates, benefits from that.
talk74 4 years ago
Yes, LiveVideo tried... and YT countered with the first partner program when they purchased the loyalty of those trend setters to remain here, for one year. That year is just about up, and LV is about to release their version 2.0 which, rumor has it, includes live video chat. Round two, anybody?
kenrg 4 years ago
Ken, while I agree in the main with what you're saying, I left for LV for a little while, not because of dissatisfaction with YT but because of haters, and while I found it a great site technologically (I could upload bigger files--which would be nice if YT would give US bigger file sizes!)
Hermgirl666 4 years ago
cont--while I found it nice because of these things, I found myself really missing everyone here--not enough people on LV into the same stuff as me, too many boring people (sorry LVers I was subbed to, but the truth's the truth.) And since different people want different things from a vlog site--
Hermgirl666 4 years ago
cont--who's to say that everyone will go to the same "Promised Land" site? Will I then have to keep track of 40 people spread over six different vlog sites? Rather than face that whole "breakin' up dat ole' gang of mine" thing, I might re-examine my whole
Hermgirl666 4 years ago
cont--commitment to vlogging and watching vlogs entirely (all this coming from someone who currently doesn't vlog due to technical difficulties, I know)and just go back to LiveJournal or something.
Wow, I spammed the hell out of you (I can't make vids right now, or I would've vidded this), sorry. And I don't entirely disagree, YT needs to listen, just puttin' some thoughts out there. Thanks, Ken.
Hermgirl666 4 years ago
This is the best video on this whole deal that I've seen so far. At the last video you mostly stated things that I was thinking about myself, but this time you've added several very interesting points. I wish YT would wise up to your way of thinking, though I doubt they will.
ruroremy 4 years ago
Thank you - Glad I was able to bring in some new points for folks to think about. I'm not counting YT out yet, but their clock is ticking.
kenrg 4 years ago
Great analysis, Ken. Even though it is largely speculative, I suspect it is largely true. I have always had the impression that YouTube's founders stumbled on success and had not thought through what to do with it. They need a visionary. The thing is, they have a couple of thousand of them working for free.
FantasticBabblings 4 years ago
... if only they'd listen...
True, my numbers are entirely speculative, because they guard the real figures so jealously. But I think my estimates are probably conservative, if anything. They could still get it right; they've been lucky before.
kenrg 4 years ago
Wow, Ken! You've really been giving this a lot of thought. Please be sure to let those of us in the peanut gallery know where to find you when you get that sweet offer. :)
Precarious times...
lookingforananswer 4 years ago
Well, you can always find me at kenrgpresents (dot-com), regardless of where the videos are hosted. But, hopefully, YT will survive and I'll still be here as well. Thanks!
kenrg 4 years ago
1000 people wouldn't have that much of an inpact. There's a thing called brand loyality and people don't just change like that. Besides it would take another site months before it could even have 20% of the "video warehouse" that youtube has become, besides the small community.
xleax 4 years ago
1,000 people in general, not so much. 1,000 of the right people, however, can be a very powerful thing. It would be tricky and have to be played just right, but I believe it could be done.
kenrg 4 years ago
This should be featured. Great work.
ClayThrower 4 years ago
Now that would be funny - if they featured a video showing the formula for a competitor to steal away their community. Of course, if they really are sick of us, maybe they will!
kenrg 4 years ago
If they were confident, they could do just that. I like the idea that featured videos could be about any topic, even ones that go against the company featuring them. Once this isn't the case, then the you is no longer in you tube. They did already take away the "broadcast yourself" line.
ClayThrower 4 years ago
Indeed
13thDimension 4 years ago
You bet!
kenrg 4 years ago
I'm Always On Youtube,I Have 120 Videos and Like 172 Subscribers. I Applied For The partners thing But I Doubt I'd Get It Lol
FabioCrow07770 4 years ago
I've applied for partnership too - Of course, when they see this video they'll turn me down for certain ;^)
The thing is; partnership should be open to anybody who plays by the rules (no porn, respect copyright, etc.). If partnership will motivate loyalty, what have they got to lose?
kenrg 4 years ago
That's True,Youtube is slowly getting there Though :P
FabioCrow07770 4 years ago
All great points and very well stated. I think your numbers are a bit conservative, as you said, which makes the ideas in this video even more powerful.
*****
GeneticBlend 4 years ago
You're right, if I used 50 clicks per day and 25,000 community members it would have been even more powerful, but even the conservative estimates show that we are a vital interest to the company. Thanks!
kenrg 4 years ago
wait, aren't you a partner GB?
DoctorMetropolis 4 years ago
Thanks for articulating such an important point - the "free" accounts, bandwidth and space equate to an absurd amount of unique clicks - the exact metrics that advertisers use when deciding to cough up their marketing budget. We're all having a good time down here, we're aware of what we bring to the table and most folks just want the tools to bring more people to the party - I'd think they would love that prospect?
EarlyWyrm 4 years ago
The power of the vital few... It's easier to keep us happy than to rebuild the core every three months. Thanks!
kenrg 4 years ago
Kenrg, you really sound like a man who has some experience in crossing swords in deadly boardroom battle. That video was a genuine deal closer!
dicom 4 years ago
Thank you. Most of my boardroom battles have been in nonprofit boardrooms, but those can be surprisingly cut-throat too ;^)
kenrg 4 years ago
BRILLIANT! Yes, someone will eventually take our attention away. Radio to TV, TV to Cable, Cable to YouTube. History repeats itself.
btw I wear 20% of my clothes 80% of the time!
TheFamousStacie 4 years ago
I am personally really bad about clicking on ads. I've maybe clicked on one before ever, but I guess not everyone is like me. I need to do better to preserve the community
TheFamousStacie 4 years ago