Fr. Barron comments on The Vatican Investigation of American Nuns

[jimaroo100]

This kind of wacky thinking is very common in the communities who are members of the Leadership Conference. That is why the faithful communities formed their own small conference called the Council of Major Superiors of Women Religious.

CMSWR = HABITS, COMMON PRAYER LIFE, LIVING IN COMMUNITY, SUPERIORS

LEADERSHIP CONFERENCE has none of that but plenty of new age , earth worship, witchcraft and enneagrams.

Take your pick

[gabrielux100]

true that father, there is nothing better beyond Jesus and his mystical body. The church, catholic, posseses the fullness of faith of truth and of knowledge.

"In Hoc Signo Vinces"

[magalahi02]

in the first weekend of September 2009, there was a gathering of Franciscans in the San Francisco Bay area. Several brothers of my community went, I however did not. When they came back I was dumbstruck to hear of a religious sister who went on about the Mayan 2010 prophecy, planetary alignment and all sorts of new age philosophies as though to promote them. She wasn't just sharing her opinion at the table, she was a speaker at the podium. So right as you said Father, Houston, we have a problem!

[Drasai]

Kudos for the great shot of St. Mary's Cathedral, Sydney at 4:35

[oracleofaltoona]

I glanced at Laurie Brink's talk and her definition of "sojourning". And yes, I can see why the Church is threatened by that. If the Church wants to come down hard on anyone who would dare 2 sojourn, they will do so 2 protect the Church's integrity; 2 the point that, If they R successful in that self-protection, the Church will become a static institution. And static instituions are not living institutions. So no, GreenGold, I do understand the Church's POV here. And I disagree with it..

[etspiritu]

The Church that Jesus Christ founded needs to be accountable to God on what activities are going on in His church, just as Paul would visit the Romans, the Corinthians, etc. to see how Jesus was being preached and to make sure that there was nothing going on that was contrary to Christ's teaching.

We have such a huge church that I can imagine all kinds of falsehoods are being taught with no accountability to anyone because no one is checking up on them, and to go beyond Jesus is Heretic.

[MobiusCoin]

Starting to sound like an Inquisitor there, father.

[wordonfirevideo]

@MobiusCoin Oh yeah, I have the bonfire cooking up now and the pincers ready to apply. Come on:  I raise an objection about a Catholic nun saying it's okay to move beyond Jesus and I'm an inquisitor!

[IoannesBellator]

@wordonfirevideo

Not necessarily a bad thing, being an inquisitor. ...Just saying, father.

[zztestenglish]

The best known nun is former olympic speed skater Kirstin Holum who sacrificed her career to serve the poor

[jimon82262]

How do you move beyond the church and Jesus? Isnt this heresy?

[megaead69]

There is a false sense of autonomy among many Bishops in the United States. It all trickles down from there. There needs to be adherence to Church Hierarchy which comes from Rome, not the dioceses.

[pianofab]

Whoa! I was so stunned that I looked for the original speech and I found it on lcwr.org. After reading the relevant portions I am even more stunned now. We go from professing Catholicism, then "Not one of the four is better or worse than the others.", then "Jesus is not the only son of God."

Somebody needs to read Dominus Iesus from a few years earlier! Quick!

(removing URL to see if YouTube allows comment)

[pianofab]

@pianofab Since URLs seem to be banned, interested parties may Google for "dominus iesus ratzinger site:vatican.va" to get there. :-)

[Link0126]

@pianofab says no such thing. What you have as quotes are not quotes from the document. Your use of quotes is misleading. RE: Son of God. It clearly states several times through quotes from creeds etc. that Jesus is the only Son of God, Begotten not made. RE: Catholicism " it would be contrary to the faith to consider the Church as one way of salvation alongside those constituted by the other religions, seen as complementary to the Church or substantially equivalent to her"

[pianofab]

@Link0126 I am not sure you understood my comment.

[Link0126]

@pianofab Would you like to clarify then? 

[LovesTrueSoul]

I think it's easier for a man to compare the burden of women and suppression women to that of men and mischaracterize it.

[C45SAA]

The Vatican's concern is understandable as more and more women become aware of the condescending attitude and blatant oppression of women inherent in the 3 Abrahamic religions.

[oracleofaltoona]

I guess I am not going to get an answer to my question. Deaconesses? Anyone? *the sound of crickets chirping*

[xukeith33]

@oracleofaltoona yes plenty of crickets. Eucharistic ministers, yes. Principals/Presidents of Catholic schools, yes. Preists and deaconesses? Nope.

[oracleofaltoona]

@xukeith33 whores, seductresses, widows and virgin saints, yes. Female teachers, scholars, leaders, nope.

[oracleofaltoona]

Doesn't spiritual faith evolve? Jesus Christ himself challenged the religious status quo of the time. I thought the Church was supposed to be a vital living entity. What Father Barron wants is something static, apparently. There is nothing in itself wrong with spiritual exploration. It does not mean one has repudiated one's faith -- in this case Christianity.

[GreenGold33]

@oracleofaltoona Spiritual exploration is necessary in my opinion, but I don't think you understand the situation from the Church's point of view. As Father Barron explains, Jesus is not just a religious figure to the Church. He is God incarnate. That's an essential premise for all Christianity. Saying that you want to understand other religions and philosophies is different than saying that the basic premise of your own religion is nonessential.

[oracleofaltoona]

@GreenGold33 I replied to this comment in another box. Just redirecting you 2 it because I don't know how youtube actually posts it. I see UR point about Y the Church is enforcing its views. (It is slightly condescending 4 U 2 say that I am wrong because I do not understand, BTW.) There will always B friction, conflict with change of any sort. And change is inevitable. The Church wants 2 control change. And 2 certain extent, it can channel it I suppose.I C nothing inherently wrong in that effort

[oracleofaltoona]

Why can't women be ordained deaconesses at least? There were deaconesses in the early church. I don't see why this shouldn't be the case. It would solve a lot of personnel problems in terms of numbers.

[PaterNOSTER110289]

Good nuns are the salt of the earth. Bad (liberal) ones are like rat poison.

[DarkWaveSurfer123]

Hello Father!, If possible after this investigation will nuns ever return to what the originally did in the 50's with the old fashioned habits and worked only at school churches and hospitals and live in convents? I mean i have nothing against on what they are doing today like social justice thats fine but i would like them at least wear a veil separate them from the laity people because they have moved out of that stage in life and moved to the consecrated life

[vint7107]

This investigation has been a long time coming. When nuns are asked by elementary students why women can't be priests and they respond by saying that it's because the pope is a chauvinistic pig (this is what was told to me), I'd say it's about time!

[FraGilesMary]

Thank you for stating the case so marvelously and kindly. With so many nuns in America replacing the Holy Spirit with the practice of New Age Reiki, there is a very strong need in Catholicism today to once again become "Christ Centered!"

[dhargetezan]

Father, isn't this essentially a census that they are performing to see the size and movement of women religious? I guess that I am unsure what the actual investigation is. Because if it is in fact such a census, then wouldn't such a provocative reaction be because she is actually embarrassed about the condition of her order. i.e. the fact that her order is dwindling and those she attacks are growing?

[wordonfirevideo]

Well, I'm not sure what you mean by "census" here. I think they're trying to find out whether women's religious communities are faithful to the Gospel.

[samuelu2lavern]

In "The Courage to Be" Tillich wrote that God is not an object among other objects. God is the ground of being. Any representation of God is inadequate and subject to erosion -even collapse. Tillich, writing about the anxiety that accompanies such a situation states, "The courage to be is rooted in the God who appears when God has disappeared in the anxiety of doubt." Or does the Roman Catholic Church have God in a box, where "He" is no longer permitted to reveal more of Himself to the world?

[pisumalu]

It is great that there is this opportunity for dialogue. It is the feeling of this Cradle Catholic that Sister Laurie Brink, Brother David Steindl-Rast and others like them are striking forth in a brave manner which holds the potential for saving the Catholic Church.  In my opinion, human relationship with the Divine is growing and maturing at a pace quicker than the Church will accept. I see this maturation as wonderful for humanity, but could prove fatal for an unresponsive Church.

[wordonfirevideo]

If you want to "sojourn" beyond Jesus, that's fine, but you can't do so and remain a Christian, precisely because Jesus is the Logos itself. How, pray tell, does a logical quest move beyond the Logos?

[pisumalu]

Some, and I believe an increasing number of people within/without the Church, ordained and lay, are opening to an experience of Christ that is more inclusive, less divisive and in my experience more loving. "They still hold up and reverence the values of the Gospel, but they also recognize that these same values are not solely the property of Christianity." For us this is not moving beyond Jesus, but allowing Jesus to move us forward in seeing God in all and all in God.

[wordonfirevideo]

You know, the language of "inclusivity" and "divisiveness" is just not helpful. I mean, you're excluding me and dividing yourself from me. One person's inclusivity is another person's exclusivity. But my main point is that authentic Christianity has plenty of room for the consideration of other religions and spiritualities, seeing them as related to Christ. But my observation stands: a Christian cannot move beyond the one who identified himself as divine.

[pisumalu]

Your viewpoint is valid for you, but not for an increasing number of Christians, and it is no more for you to judge my inclusion therein than it is for me to judge yours. If you are excluded, it is by your doing, though I think not. So take responsibility for your own faith, as I take responsibility for mine. I am a Christian Father, and I have not moved beyond the Divine, I've moved forward with the Divine. You seem to feel free to judge many, though you've been commanded to judge not.

[wordonfirevideo]

Okay friend, we're kind of going around in circles now. God bless you.

[pisumalu]

Well, isn't that the way it seems to go.  People who've argued about authenticity, right, wrong, power, doctrine and the like, both within and among various traditions, have gone round in circles for thousands of years. What I find both interesting and inspiring is that during that same period of time, those that have focused on the inner experience of the Divine, regardless of tradition, have spoken of their experiences in nearly identical terms, and yet acknowledged those words as inadequate.

[wordonfirevideo]

Just when I want to step out, you pull me back in! Your claim here, I'm afraid, is just false. There are indeed points of contact and "family resemblances" among the great mystics of the various religious traditions, but to say that they all speak of the inner experience in "nearly identical terms" is profoundly misleading. To give just two simple examples, Buddhist compassion is not the same as Christian charity, and Buddhist co-origination is not the same as creation.

[pisumalu]

Now Father, please don't blame me for your actions... we're both here by choice. What is misleading is your citing concepts in an attempt to show that inner experiences of the "Divine" are not the same. I'm speaking of a passive state, in which the consciousness of being in the body disappears. Sense activity ceases, memory and imagination are also absorbed in the Divine. The language and framework from which the experiences are reported differ, but the experiences reported, nearly identical.

[wordonfirevideo]

I know you want this to be true, but it just isn't. Talk to a Buddhist about his experience of ultimate reality, and then talk to a Christian about his experience of ultimate reality. The first will speak of an awareness of the interdependent co-origination of all things or of "contingency without ground." And a Christian will speak of an experience of the Creator God. Like it or not, friend, those are radically different experiences.

[pisumalu]

I'm enjoying our exchange, but am honestly baffled at your continued insistence that a passive state where sense activity and even bodily awareness ceases must be reduced to a mental concept. Everything you refer to is a mental concept. Everything I refer to here is an experience. A Buddhist and a Christian may use different terminology to describe the scent of a rose, but it is still the same experience of scent. I'm referring to an experience for which no words or concepts are adequate.

[wordonfirevideo]

But that's precisely where I'm quarreling with you: I don't think it's the same experience. I think that Christians and Buddhists (to give just one example) have different religious experiences. Their mutually exclusive doctrinal claims are not somehow extraneous to the underlying experience (that's where I find your position baffling). If I thought that deep down all religions are saying the same thing,I wouldn't bother being a Catholic priest!

[pisumalu]

We've come to the crux of the issue. You are not able to experience the Divine without mentally defining it, but contrary to your assertion, others are. In Buddhism it is said, "never confuse the finger pointing at the moon with the moon itself", i.e., don't confuse teachings with the experience to which they point. Many Hindus revere the teachings of Jesus. As increasingly people are coming to similar experiences of God, you must realize that your experience does not define theirs.

[wordonfirevideo]

God Bless You.

[pisumalu]

God Bless You too.

[otoolehouse]

I think the whole one God different experiences concept would make a lot more sense between Catholicism and Protestantism or more broadly Chistianity and Judaism, but buddhists do not seem to worship the same God as Chistians. In fact I'm not even sure Buddhists worship a God at all. I learned in Religions class that Buddhists are nontheistic.

I just don't even see the most remote resembelence betweeen the two parties. Or am I missing something?

[pisumalu]

Maybe a one experience, many Gods concept. I'm not Buddhist, but did live in a Buddhist country for over two years. I feel their philosophy is that our source is beyond mental comprehension, yet can be experienced by all. St. Teresa of Avila's "devotion of ecstasy", Buddhist Enlightenment, etc., speak of a transformation of awareness; loss of self; absorption in the source, profound love and compassion. A Buddhist might say, "Different words for same experience, which words can't explain".

[otoolehouse]

"Inclusion does not mean lack of principles." - Newt Gingrich

[pisumalu]

""Inclsion does not mean lack of principles" - Newt Gingrich"

Yes, well here's a principle I've always liked:

"A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another." - Jesus

[otoolehouse]

Yes, and I love my friends who are Jewish or Muslim, but I would never adopt their beliefs which are not christ centered.

[pisumalu]

I'd never ask you to.

[otoolehouse]

1

I am Catholic and I am not one who is

suspicious of the Church and I understand the reason for and agree with most all Catholic Doctrine. I am a cradle Catholic, but I have also studied a great deal of Church doctrine, accepted it and confirmed that it is what I believe. I've even at times considered a vocation to the priesthood.

[otoolehouse]

2

The one part of our church though that I've always grappled with, is the female religous life. I don't appreciate the characacherization of the old school, patriarchal Catholic church oppressing female religous. And I also don't approve of this newfound attitude, seen in many religous orders, of contemporary, nonchalant Religous voccations for women.

[otoolehouse]

3

I feel there is a great danger in overly liberalizing the female vocation. And, of course, I feel that exploring beliefs outside of the Christian paradigm is not something we should dabble in at all.

[otoolehouse]

4

There is a rather high rate of nuns who abandon their vocations and I feel that the female religious life is the one part of our Church that deserves more attention and reform. But it needs the right kind of reform. Women should still be devoting their lives entirely to God, but some aspects of the life must change in order to better serve the people of the time.

[otoolehouse]

5

I think a lot of this relates to the growing contraversy of married priests and I really hope you do a video on that. I think its especially important to open a dialogue on married priests with the recent papal welcoming of married Episcopalian priests in the Catholic Church.

[DetectiveThursday]

the LCWR really has nobody to blame but themselves on this one. Thank God that the more traditional convents and monasteries are attracting the up and coming generation of religious, both male and female.

[artifex12]

I'd say that last one is heretical isn't it? It's disturbing. I wish there were more traditional sisters in habits and in school, I see a great need there.

[Catholicdrummer]

You are exactly right, women religious are being investigated to see how widespread the dissent has spread.