Well, if you are so interested on other names, just look at yours...
That´s completely laughable! What a childish way to like animals: « tigerownslion»... Completely absurd, when both cats are so close physically (strenght,etc...) Actually I think that tigers may have the edge, because they reach bigger sizes, but it´s that, not miracles...
I already helped so many cats, that I find this rivalry of tiger vs lion highly pathetic.
Kostoglod account don´t mention any sickness ( but only big size and unknown gender) however this may still be applied to sick tiger data having in mind the well known 12 cases data. However Abramov isn´t included on that data and there more scientists talking about predation of bears on tigers, such as Danilenko.
Though I believe that in most cases, tigers are small,sick or old as the same for the bears that are taken by the tigers. Both species benefit each other.
Smartie, Out of 12 cases, 6 are adults, remaining 4 are cubs, remaining 2 is case unknown. Out of 6 adults, the 3 to 4 known cases involved young males, not fully grown and possibly adult tigresses. There is not a single case of adult male tiger killed by largely-herbivore brown bear.
Brown bear largely herbivore? Well if you don´t know a great things about them, why you talk? In Yellowstone meat constitues the bulk of their diet ( 80% ).
I know that tigers predate more on brown bears that the opposite, but tigers aren´t stupid and only want to live with the less risk possible ( after all they are lone predators that rely on their health to keep being able to hunt) so they tackle smaller bears. They aren´t pathethic dolls as some tiger fans want to make them sound. Adult male collision is clear on the favor of the brown bear, because of size deficit for the tiger.
Smaller bears ? There were 4 adult female brown bears killed by tigers. Adult female brownies are similar in size to male tigers. They can weigh upto 280 kgs. You know that ? They are no smaller. As for adult male collision, There is not a single record of adult male tiger killed by male brownie. There are records of young male and adult tigresses killed during Pre-1980s days. But, there is no evidence in post-1990 field research data. Records show adult male brownies avoid adult male tigers.
There are only evidence of tigers killing bears smaller than themselves ( and this includes the exceptional Dale case).
And while there are no cases of adult male brown bears taken by tigers there are records of brown bears killing adult male tigers ( Abramov and the record from 1972 ( In 1972 at Komissarovka Pogranichny, a male adult tiger was "killed by bear".)
And yes there is scientific documented predation cases of brown bears on tiger.
"Two of the bears Misha killed were adult female brown bears, each weighing nearly as much as he does" [Tiger tracts, news letter of the siberian tiger project, summer 1998]
There you go. Adult female brownies can weigh as large as male tigers. Tigers killed adult brownies similar to their size.
As for your claim that no adult male brownie was killed,
"In December 1959, at pp. Bright tiger killed large brown bear and lived near HIM about 10 days until I ate (Rakov, 1965)." - Google translation of Chap19
The Abramov(1962) incident was the killing of young tiger by large brown bear. As for 1972 account, Can you produce the evidence for age and gender of tiger ?
Rakov incident didn´t gave any gender only size and if it´s the same as I think is the one about a young male brown bear ( 170 kgs and about 150 cm lol). More probably a very fat young bear.
Abramov account has it´s full description on carnivora forum ( adult male siberian tiger is mentioned) and the 1972 actually is from Russia, a study examining mortality of Amur Tigers since the 1970's.
"In December 1959, at pp. Bright tiger killed large brown bear and lived near HIM about 10 days until I ate (Rakov, 1965)." - Google translation of Chap19
What does it mean "Him" ? Young brown bears are not called as "large brown bears" smartie.
Smartie? HIM regarding bears or tigers, means nothing. For example here means the animal itself, the bear is always an «him» when no gender is mentioned as the same for russian. that question was presented on carnivora forum and russian posters confirmed that. Actually 19 chapter confirms « no adult male brown bears were known to be taken by tigers». Do you want the original page of the translation made by a russian that had the patience to do it some months ago on carnivora?
Xor12/achatina12/firefly, stop living in denial. You mistakenly posted a message from your another account achatina12, then you deleted it. But, your deleted comment already came to my comments box and i viewed it. You Xor12 is same person as achatina12 and Carnivora's firefly.
As Dale being exceptional one, he is only the handful male tigers radio-collared. There are 100 more uncollerad tigers. Sure, there must be many more Dales.
Well, I´ll get the references about adult male tigers ( scientific confirmed data) for you ( gender mentioned). There´s no need here for allusions guesses about «him or her» on chapter 19 and in the end the conclusion that there´s no adult male brown bears known to be taken. I guess that basic interpretation skills will figure out that for you easily. We don´t need to discuss if it was a male or a female.
I would like to see if there is any predation cases reported by Siberian tiger project. You can mention the source. I will check whether i have that source.
Scientific data relating tigers and bears in Russia isn´t an exclusive property of Siberian Tiger Project. What Siberian tiger Project does say is that there are reports of brown bears killing adult tigers ( either predation or not, that´s not directly mentioned), but this doesn´t deny other scientists to talk about predation: Abramov and Kostoglod, themselves did gave detailed descriptions about bears predating tigers and both accounts curiously talk about large tigers killed and eaten.
"large tigers", where did you pull that ? The only male tigers killed in the record is 3-4 year old young males. Not the full grown adults. Even those records are doubtful, because modern data from STP didn't reveal any such incidents eventhough tiger numbers increased. It is all other way around of tigers killing and predating adult brown bears.
I did pulled from the original reference. Kostoglod « large tiger, either an exceptional big female or an adult male», Abramov « an adult male?. Progonich district « adult male tiger was killed by bear.
STP itself published a study saying that there are reports of brown bears killing adult tigers ( 1996). The original article is on the carnivora forum thread of bear vs tiger.
If any old exceptional case is not confirmed by modern data provided by STP, then that exceptional case itself is questionable.. STP is operating for 2 decades. Still we have not heard any incident of brown bears supposed predation or killing of tigers. It is all other way around of tigers killing and eating adult brown bears.
Dale Miquelle itself published an article with Pikunov and others confirming tigers killed by bears ( 7 on that study) on 1985-1996 time frame and you dare to say that? Again you should know that Dale Miquelle works for STP...
Some sources were posted on true AVA and carnivora forum stating that tigers from part of brown bear diet ( not a great percentage if you want to know, but still it´s a percentage/part). I did heard about 2,4 % but including also other carnivores
Russian scientists like Danilenko have published works stating that ( on the 90´s), did you saw it?
What´s the modern siberian tiger project for you? If you want to exclude 90´s decade data then you would exclude also Dale data...
Firefly, How did tigers get into part of brown bear diet ? By predation ? No. Bears as scavengers will eat any deserted carcass including already dead tiger carcass. That's how the tiny percentage of tiger came into bear diet. Not by predation. That's what famous Chapter 19 Page No 12 says.
If you want more details about the 1972 case of an adult male tiger killed by bear, I can send it to you.
Actually it was Taipan who posted it, if I´m correct.
xor12 2 years ago
Ok, send it to me firefly. Upload in a website and send me the link.
Tiger0wnsLion 2 years ago
Treat me by xor12. There´s no firefly on here.
The original version is on carnivora forum, on the thread of brown bear vs tiger.
xor12 2 years ago
You and fireflies...
Well, if you are so interested on other names, just look at yours...
That´s completely laughable! What a childish way to like animals: « tigerownslion»... Completely absurd, when both cats are so close physically (strenght,etc...) Actually I think that tigers may have the edge, because they reach bigger sizes, but it´s that, not miracles...
I already helped so many cats, that I find this rivalry of tiger vs lion highly pathetic.
xor12 2 years ago
Kostoglod account don´t mention any sickness ( but only big size and unknown gender) however this may still be applied to sick tiger data having in mind the well known 12 cases data. However Abramov isn´t included on that data and there more scientists talking about predation of bears on tigers, such as Danilenko.
Though I believe that in most cases, tigers are small,sick or old as the same for the bears that are taken by the tigers. Both species benefit each other.
xor12 2 years ago
Smartie, Out of 12 cases, 6 are adults, remaining 4 are cubs, remaining 2 is case unknown. Out of 6 adults, the 3 to 4 known cases involved young males, not fully grown and possibly adult tigresses. There is not a single case of adult male tiger killed by largely-herbivore brown bear.
Tiger0wnsLion 2 years ago
THere´s at least 2 cases confirmed.
Brown bear largely herbivore? Well if you don´t know a great things about them, why you talk? In Yellowstone meat constitues the bulk of their diet ( 80% ).
xor12 2 years ago
I know that tigers predate more on brown bears that the opposite, but tigers aren´t stupid and only want to live with the less risk possible ( after all they are lone predators that rely on their health to keep being able to hunt) so they tackle smaller bears. They aren´t pathethic dolls as some tiger fans want to make them sound. Adult male collision is clear on the favor of the brown bear, because of size deficit for the tiger.
Taipan is getting owned badly on is own forum.
xor12 2 years ago
Smaller bears ? There were 4 adult female brown bears killed by tigers. Adult female brownies are similar in size to male tigers. They can weigh upto 280 kgs. You know that ? They are no smaller. As for adult male collision, There is not a single record of adult male tiger killed by male brownie. There are records of young male and adult tigresses killed during Pre-1980s days. But, there is no evidence in post-1990 field research data. Records show adult male brownies avoid adult male tigers.
Tiger0wnsLion 2 years ago
There are only evidence of tigers killing bears smaller than themselves ( and this includes the exceptional Dale case).
And while there are no cases of adult male brown bears taken by tigers there are records of brown bears killing adult male tigers ( Abramov and the record from 1972 ( In 1972 at Komissarovka Pogranichny, a male adult tiger was "killed by bear".)
And yes there is scientific documented predation cases of brown bears on tiger.
If you want sources I can send via pm. :)
xor12 2 years ago
Xor12 Achatina12 Firefly,
"Two of the bears Misha killed were adult female brown bears, each weighing nearly as much as he does" [Tiger tracts, news letter of the siberian tiger project, summer 1998]
There you go. Adult female brownies can weigh as large as male tigers. Tigers killed adult brownies similar to their size.
Tiger0wnsLion 2 years ago
As for your claim that no adult male brownie was killed,
"In December 1959, at pp. Bright tiger killed large brown bear and lived near HIM about 10 days until I ate (Rakov, 1965)." - Google translation of Chap19
The Abramov(1962) incident was the killing of young tiger by large brown bear. As for 1972 account, Can you produce the evidence for age and gender of tiger ?
Tiger0wnsLion 2 years ago
Rakov incident didn´t gave any gender only size and if it´s the same as I think is the one about a young male brown bear ( 170 kgs and about 150 cm lol). More probably a very fat young bear.
Abramov account has it´s full description on carnivora forum ( adult male siberian tiger is mentioned) and the 1972 actually is from Russia, a study examining mortality of Amur Tigers since the 1970's.
The information actually is on a board.
xor12 2 years ago
"In December 1959, at pp. Bright tiger killed large brown bear and lived near HIM about 10 days until I ate (Rakov, 1965)." - Google translation of Chap19
What does it mean "Him" ? Young brown bears are not called as "large brown bears" smartie.
Tiger0wnsLion 2 years ago
Smartie? HIM regarding bears or tigers, means nothing. For example here means the animal itself, the bear is always an «him» when no gender is mentioned as the same for russian. that question was presented on carnivora forum and russian posters confirmed that. Actually 19 chapter confirms « no adult male brown bears were known to be taken by tigers». Do you want the original page of the translation made by a russian that had the patience to do it some months ago on carnivora?
xor12 2 years ago
Xor12, achatina12, firefly??
Treat me as xor12 and I´ll treat you as tigerownslion:
Yes, you said it all «adult female brownies each weighing NEARLY as much as he does».
The best case of tiger was Dale ( an exceptional one) and stil was about killing smaller adult females than itself.
xor12 2 years ago
Xor12/achatina12/firefly, stop living in denial. You mistakenly posted a message from your another account achatina12, then you deleted it. But, your deleted comment already came to my comments box and i viewed it. You Xor12 is same person as achatina12 and Carnivora's firefly.
As Dale being exceptional one, he is only the handful male tigers radio-collared. There are 100 more uncollerad tigers. Sure, there must be many more Dales.
Tiger0wnsLion 2 years ago
Are you oncatigris?
Well no one lived in denial, I just said to treat me by the name. It´s xor12.
Well you said it all.
«there must be many Dales»- But in the 2 decades of study of STP , only 1 was found behaving like that.
xor12 2 years ago
Well, I´ll get the references about adult male tigers ( scientific confirmed data) for you ( gender mentioned). There´s no need here for allusions guesses about «him or her» on chapter 19 and in the end the conclusion that there´s no adult male brown bears known to be taken. I guess that basic interpretation skills will figure out that for you easily. We don´t need to discuss if it was a male or a female.
xor12 2 years ago
I would like to see if there is any predation cases reported by Siberian tiger project. You can mention the source. I will check whether i have that source.
Tiger0wnsLion 2 years ago
Scientific data relating tigers and bears in Russia isn´t an exclusive property of Siberian Tiger Project. What Siberian tiger Project does say is that there are reports of brown bears killing adult tigers ( either predation or not, that´s not directly mentioned), but this doesn´t deny other scientists to talk about predation: Abramov and Kostoglod, themselves did gave detailed descriptions about bears predating tigers and both accounts curiously talk about large tigers killed and eaten.
xor12 2 years ago
"large tigers", where did you pull that ? The only male tigers killed in the record is 3-4 year old young males. Not the full grown adults. Even those records are doubtful, because modern data from STP didn't reveal any such incidents eventhough tiger numbers increased. It is all other way around of tigers killing and predating adult brown bears.
Tiger0wnsLion 2 years ago
I did pulled from the original reference. Kostoglod « large tiger, either an exceptional big female or an adult male», Abramov « an adult male?. Progonich district « adult male tiger was killed by bear.
STP itself published a study saying that there are reports of brown bears killing adult tigers ( 1996). The original article is on the carnivora forum thread of bear vs tiger.
xor12 2 years ago
If any old exceptional case is not confirmed by modern data provided by STP, then that exceptional case itself is questionable.. STP is operating for 2 decades. Still we have not heard any incident of brown bears supposed predation or killing of tigers. It is all other way around of tigers killing and eating adult brown bears.
Tiger0wnsLion 2 years ago
Dale Miquelle itself published an article with Pikunov and others confirming tigers killed by bears ( 7 on that study) on 1985-1996 time frame and you dare to say that? Again you should know that Dale Miquelle works for STP...
xor12 2 years ago
Russian brown bear is the only predator of siberian tiger in Primore region, AMUR.
xor12 2 years ago
The term "Predator of Siberian tiger" is an oxymoronic term. There is no predator to tiger in their domain.
Tiger0wnsLion 2 years ago
Really?
What´s your excuse for the russian scientists documentation stating that?
Do you want sources, wolverine claws? lol
xor12 2 years ago
Ok, let us see your sources from modern siberian tiger project, Firefly/Grahhh ?
Tiger0wnsLion 2 years ago
Firefly, Grah?
Some sources were posted on true AVA and carnivora forum stating that tigers from part of brown bear diet ( not a great percentage if you want to know, but still it´s a percentage/part). I did heard about 2,4 % but including also other carnivores
Russian scientists like Danilenko have published works stating that ( on the 90´s), did you saw it?
What´s the modern siberian tiger project for you? If you want to exclude 90´s decade data then you would exclude also Dale data...
xor12 2 years ago
Firefly, How did tigers get into part of brown bear diet ? By predation ? No. Bears as scavengers will eat any deserted carcass including already dead tiger carcass. That's how the tiny percentage of tiger came into bear diet. Not by predation. That's what famous Chapter 19 Page No 12 says.
Tiger0wnsLion 2 years ago
Comment removed
Achatina12 2 years ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Well, rather than just «saying» I do have scientific documents to back up what I´m saying, if you want it, I´ll be all glad to send it to you.
xor12 2 years ago