The Mystic Heart - Part 5 - Psychosis or Mystical State?

[MrSpadeofAce]

god cant talk to you.. he does not exist

[smallpotatoes989]

@MrSpadeofAce how can you tell for sure?

[MrSpadeofAce]

@smallpotatoes989 common sense

[smallpotatoes989]

@MrSpadeofAce common sence is a colection of prejustices colected after the age of 18...Albert Einstein (quote)

[hotkafka]

One major way to differentiate between psychotic and mystical states is language. Depending on the ability of the experiencer, one could report very similar concepts and ideas proposed in both states. I think that psychosis and psychotic experiences primarily deviate from mystical states in that psychotics tend to experience the concept of "union" as a reaction, in fear, as opposed to most mystics whom experience union, or the collapsing of boundaries between self and larger SELF, as bliss.

[IChIDH]

GOD lives where EGO dies.

[lolnik1]

I had mystical state in my childhood everyday near 3 years. I thought, that i'm son of satan after, that i'm sent to earth by Jesus. I had full of positive emotions, i known sense of world etc. It ended and depression came. World made empty, dark, strange, dangerous. I don't know how to recover my mystical state, i think of it everyday nearly 9 years! My psychiatrist says, that was psychotic period, but i'm not psychotic it was just different state of mind, no psychosis. I want to recover this

[MiriamSPia]

@lolnik1 That is a bit strange. I don't think its strange to have had a spiritual sensation or even a phase where you felt aware of your own power and both joy and fear regarding its source. I would ask a seemingly unrelated question: did your parents or main care givers go through any major changes in their sex life/lives or their financial circumstances? I ask because when we are children we mostly ignore the sexual dynamics of our parents but indirectly we are strongly affected by that.

[Lifeseeker45]

"Hearing voices" is a typical psychotic experience associated with mental illnesses such as schizophrenia. These voices are not from God but are more typically from the subconscious. However, God can actually speak to someone in an audible voice. It happened to me. So please don't think that God can not communicate directly and intimately with us. Also, I believe Therese's distinction (discussed by Ken) between pre-personal, transpersonal and personal experiences of this kind is a good one.

[bethrosen1]

Enlightened mystics tell you not to listen to voices. It's a dangerous slippery slope, no matter how benign or loving it may start out. It can result in psychosis, a serious condition that needs to be treated with love and gentleness to regain a person's boundaries and sense of self. True wisdom dictates that you meld spiritual guidance, in whatever form it comes, into your own experience, take it back to this world, your heart, & apply logics & reasoning. Beth Rosen - enlightenmentishere

[DrMickaelleDougherty]

That genius is attended by Abnormal or eccentric traits Is nature's hint that we should try Our best to explore these morbid states And find out why, before its bloom, The human mind degenerates Or is enshrouded in the gloom Of madness as if ruled by fates. A hundred cases are there to show How often genius is allied To madness but we still do not know Why they should flourish side by side A study of the more remote Religious genius could have solved The riddle...." See my channel.

[catshez]

It does have to be said that Neil Donald Walsh was a real skeptic before be wrote his first book. He was very clear in the preface of the first book that he did not believe in any "God" and made fun of his church-going wife.. then a mystical experience happened which he ignored, but the "voice" persisted.. perhaps 7 volumes is going too far, but the first 3 books are very insightful. 5 years have passed since this discussion was uploaded, so much Knowledge has emerged since then :)

[movieklump]

It's interesting to hear bollocks from a non Christian/Muslim. This is a very intellectual form of bollocks. A higher bollocks. A meaningful meditative bollocks. I like this bullshit.

I like oxymorons like "real mystics". I'm not psychotic, I'm spiritual. That works for me.

[BrianTheMusicMan]

Wayne is a lot like Jesus in that he speaks often in metaphor and poetry that can be easily misleading.

[CloudshadowMan1]

Brother Wayne explains that he does not hear God as a voice but as ideas. A psychologist would like to call mystics psychotic. Ken expalins that all sentient beings are fully human and fully divine. The divine voice talks through a messed up human. Peace and contentment to all beings.

[crazedmystic]

Psychosis, definitely psychosis

[kaltenbach16]

it's essential to understand the triggering factors to understand the psychotic schemes....sense of guilt seems to play a major part...for instance my scheme is based on a guilt > impending punishment scheme..often happens when you've had a rough education...what the psychotherapists do is that they help you detect the decisive event triggering the psychosis, to do so, they usually need an accurate and chronologic account of the delusions...

[MissInterprets]

@kaltenbach16

I feel like I've been punished. I think I'm still not quite out of the woods as I'm still interpreting all of my past delusions. I don't have any new ones, but the old ones still plague me. The self doubt propels the psychotic state. I think doubt is the fuel for schizophrenia. It seems to help to focus on what I know and not obsess over what I don't know.

[kaltenbach16]

during a psychotic episode, most often, you go through several stages of delusions, to give a rough picture, sometimes you happen to be in a Truman Show reality (strange but still bearable), then you may find yourself into a Matrix-like dimension (very scary) and worst of all, a kind of demonic dimension (this one cannot be tolerated for a long time)....this explains why the suicide rate among psychotics is very high..

[SteveSlaughter1]

I've been through all of those dimensions :-) My favorite was probably the Truman show. I actually thought I was the most famous person in the world and that everyone was watching me on TV. It was fun to be a superstar!!!

[kaltenbach16]

yes, the Truman Show dimension is still bearable, for me, things worsen when religious delusions arise...the "Matrix" one is also impressive, I think it's like a visual representation of the fever of the nervous central system!!!

[SteveSlaughter1]

I thought my family was the descendants of Jesus Christ (because I believed the Holy Grail myth), and I created an entire grandiose mythology. It was very private and only occured in my mind. Bits and pieces of my delusional world leaked out in my affairs, but the psychiatrists at the hospitals had no idea how complex my delusions were because I was so wrapped up in them, and my mind was moving so fast that I didn't broadcast much.

[kaltenbach16]

I thought I was Jesus because I was 33 (pseudo rational)...at a certain point, delusions become so complex and entangled that it's almost pointless to explain them...usually, psychiatrists don't give a shit about the details anyway, they just have 30 minutes to give a new prescrition of neuroleptics, make sure you don't want to hurt yourself or someone else...

[SteveSlaughter1]

I thought I was Jesus because it was 2006, and I was 26 (outside two numbers of 2006). I wonder if we can learn something from studying delusions? You're right, psychiatrists think delusions aren't worthwhile....

[kaltenbach16]

I'd like to find a huge compilation or a huge database of typical delusions (including in the field of ethopsychitry)...

[smudge6699]

I thought I was the second coming after a profound Kundalini awakening, but I realised as this guy does, that I was aware of the intuitive unspoken knowing that he was aware of too.

No fear, no doubt and no questions.

Peace

[winstono75]

@smudge6699 I was the second coming too. I wonder how many people think that way. Since Jesus is supposed to be the only divine incarnation in our culture it makes sense that the mind would interpret awakening that way.

[memast5]

Psychology was a science invented to debunk the supernatural.

[SteveSlaughter1]

I've thought the same thing, especially when I noticed that Freud used psychology to explain faith in God as something neurotic. I'm not sure how to deal with all of that yet.....still learning....

[Kristo198383]

That's the point where I feel more for the writings of Stanislav Grof on this subject, then what Wilber says about it. Psychosis can really be a trigger for later spiritual develepment if you're able to strengthen your ego boundaries, and work an building a strong and healthy personality. After all I'm still on a low dose of antipsychotic drugs just for safety reasons, but I'm doing better than ever before and am studying again as a graduate student in computer language.

[Figm0]

These people in the video do not know anything because they have never had a psychotic experience.I have had two psychotic eposides and I do know that they are very scary because you really, well in my case know that there is GOD and the Devil.Maybe the third time is a charm. Anyway, antipsychotic medications are just bad. Google it..Neuroleptics cause brain damage

[SteveSlaughter1]

Yeah, I read an article in the New York Times about a neuroscientist and psychiatrist who discovered through 20 years of research that antipsychotics block basal ganglia activity and prevent the prefrontal cortex from receiving input. The end result is the atrophy of the prefrontal cortex by 1% a year.

[kaltenbach16]

"atrophy of the prefrontal cortex by 1% a year"

Shit!!! they should mention that on the boxes...they must probably think we won't need our brain anymore anyway...

[SteveSlaughter1]

the prefrontal cortex shrinks naturally with age, but antipsychotic drugs speed up this process. I'm not sure doctors know how, if at all, this shrinkage will impair consumers cognitively.

[Kristo198383]

Now after the years I can only say that my psychoses triggerd a spiritual development. Through the years I developped with meditation through a severe kundalini experience from prerational to post-rational stages (not only states) of consciousness. So I'm actually glad I've had those psychotic breaks because after all they have been really transformative.

[Kristo198383]

I can only say that my personal experience with psychosis and manic depression brought me on a spiritual path. I had the feeling to have had experienced an altered state (which I couldn't explain that way because I didn't know it was possible to have natural altered states, except with psychedelic drugs, for instance).

[mindrunfree]

It seems like the more "matter" that is involved, the connection to the mystical experience can become more and more disintegrated.

[odetoinsolence]

What ever happened to science? You wouldn't just blindly trust some random person, so why would you just blindly trust some voice, apparition, or vision?

I'm glad Ken Wilber touched upon the voice & vision aspect of meditation. I don't trust any spiritual/mystic teacher or psychologist unless they can induce this meditative state.

I see people defining the voices as "God," random "demon," or "devil-" I think this is a mistake. That is just laying dogmatic ideals over something that is NATURAL.

[spoiltworms]

Maybe not the biggest collection of idiots on the planet, but close.

[eeddssoonn1989]

wow man...

pretty good words

interesting as well

[jcreamx23]

everybodys got opinions nowadays...

[PsychDoctorate]

Having gone through a psychosis and hearing voices and being convinced that God was comunicating to me through my left hand was quite a disconcerting experience. Going through a psychosis is not a spiritual experience and those men and women who do go through them and think that they have had a "spiritual experience" are deluding themselves and are in need of psychiatric assistance. I never want to go through what I experienced ever again in my life! By the way, it was medication induced!

[wormholetraveler]

God spoke to me once and it wasn't psychosis. However, my red flag goes up when a TV preacher says, "God spoke to me and..." or "God laid it on my heart." I'm sure. The fact is, God can really speak to you in an audible voice but I think it is rare. That's probably why so many of these New Agers are really athiestic. They haven't heard so they don't believe in God, just in some "energy" or "force".

[MaBu888]

LOL I'm atheist, notice the spelling. But god is a crystallization. Perhaps you are responsible for the wisdom. Your true self is pure luminous emptiness. Perhaps. thusly, atheism and theism can be brought together in P E A C E. I cannot know what you experienced, therefore don't listen (?). Ken Wilber the second man speaking shares this view. Transpersonal voices!

[MaBu888]

Post-modernism is transcended and included in a higher level of consciousness. The pathology of deconstructiveness and flatland (denial of all forms of hierarchies) must be vanquished by at first acknowledging the existence thereof. Never stop learning about what you experience. I don't think the all-transcending and all-including nondual oneness that really is god, could be called personal, it really is TRANSPERSONAL. You saw this transpersonal through a more compressed, personal filter maybe.

[LaBellaa1984]

intuition, feeling with your heart, reincarnation, just knowing, because your an old soul

[zvix0]

good,actually voices and visions are nothing there is something greater,worthier than a voice or even a full conversation.

it is the vital thing a sufi person is to be completely in love with.its the FACE of ALLAH.

[zvix0]

U are abosultely rite. u cant trust voices.I mean anyone who practices mysticism ,which involves the act of confroting the ego up to the occult knwoledge,can hear voices ,but u cannt tell whether it was God who talked or simply a regular devil.that's why u need a spiritual guide who has gone the same way ages ago.Thanks God i dnt hear voices when i practice.

[t123n5]

thank you for these videos ...i have been experiencing something like this.

[telethon123]

Wilber interviewed Walsch more recently (you can find the audio on the 'net), and he kissed his ass the whole time. I wonder what the deal is.

[spirogrinder2]

walsch has a higher public profile/popularity.

[bobtuskinsherbane]

I love Marleny carael salas.

[Winter077]

Whatever...I was psychotic once and is was the most horrifying experience of my life! I was scared shitless..I thought I was in a movie and I thought everyone wanted to kill me. Every single sound made my heart pound and I freaked out so bad that I swallowd a handful of seditives to knock me out. I didn't care about overdosing I just wanted it to go away. Mystical state my ass!

[j00f]

Did you even watch the video?

[spirogrinder2]

stay off the dope dude.... hahah

[closetome]

er.... i've got psychosis and it ain't mystical. it's traumatic and life destroying. You've obviously never had it.

[hardinerx]

I've had it, its pretty shitty, but you recover, just stay on your meds for about a year. I feel better than i did before, but it is devastating

[closetome]

cheers for the kind words dude. i'm not actually on any meds...mine was drug induced. think i should be healed up soon.

[jaso19]

AMphetamines buddie LOL dexadrine dude

[HankHalfaweffer]

It's easy to assume that your experiences are typical of everyone else. Certainly you raise the good point that psychosis does not imply mystical experiences but that does not mean some people do not have mystical sensations during psychotic episodes.

[jaso19]

BUT MAN DONT U FEEL LIEK YOUR GOD LIEK YOU CAN SEE EVERYTHING Liek GOd himself an your higher then everyone Thats what i felt

[DustTown]

In time, I wish to talk to you about my own version of pansophy. Good luck ken! May the movement raise the consciousness of the world before it's blown up!

[dimphil]

Forget about the spiritual stuff it is psychosis. Take your Lithium or Depakote. You are manic dude. If you are grandiose like you you are manic. I know mania feels good like you have it but take your meds.

[MaBu888]

There is a difference between insanity and more subtle states of consciousness, like meditative states and states of artistic states of deep inspritation. Do you know the atheist Sam Harris? He does a non-dual form of buddhist meditation called dzogchen, wherein the nature and oneness of mind is seen as an emptiness in which form arises and self-liberates. Search 'Sam Harris vs', and you'll find how he pwnz religious fundies and moderates alike with his clear and concise cognition and reasoning.

[MaBu888]

BTW, any form of valid spiritual practice lacks several features that psychosis indeed has: mispercetions, delusions, paranoia and several unnamed features.Insanity in general also lacks existential clarity and basic reasoning to a large degree and is characterized and caused by UNSTABLE brain activity and brain chemical status, while most meditation is actually useful in achieving HIGHLY stable brain states and consciousness states, at times resembling deep sleep but with full awareness & more.

[MaBu888]

NO psychiatrist in modern times has claimed that states of deep meditative awareness and as well as realizations (aha moments, satori) would have anything to do with psychosis. This post of yours is conjectural. I do meditation regularly, wherein nondual and causal states are achieved, and no paranoia, misperceptions or delusions (not even of grandure) will ever emerge. Instead, I achieve existential and deep realizational (big mind) states very often, almost every time I do meditation.

[nicolatwo]

I believe that psychotic persons are completely open to receive about everything. I have witnessed it. I had a psychotic boyfriend. He was extra perceptive in his state of acute psychosis. But he was overwhelmed by the input of information into his brain making him unable to function. Psychosis is a state of total perception but in a completely unorganised and unstructured form.

[Winter077]

You are dead on!

[booglysquared]

@nicolatwo You are dead on about that. I experience it myself with a diagnosis of "schizoaffective." It's like there is no filter sometimes from the outside world and other people and my own thoughts, especially with the voices. Psychosis is a thin line between spirituality and dysfunctional insanity. Balance is key as with everyone. Once one finds that balance then it becomes a humble gift of subtle truth.

[Nhordmyr]

@nicolatwo I somehow wish myself to be not that open for anything, like "normal" humans are with a "normal" functioning mind. Maybe it's my age but I don't like (especially in these modern days and in our western Civ) that you get influenced by any Piece of sh*t and actually have to waste energy letting yourself get influenced by all sorts of things. Sometimes I think it's nearly impossible to get such an open mind while sticking to your PC and the internet (and entertainement with it). Tough

[happyseaurchin]

...will check out others...

[Stepper11]

I'm a little surprised to hear Wilber bust on the CWG books. Seems to be based on a very limited understanding (misunderstanding, in fact) of the nature and claims of that work. However, I do understand his general skepticism toward claims to have heard the voice of God.

[civitasdei]

Yupp, I was surprised as well.

[cdncwby]

wilber was correct to "question" the claim regarding the "voice" of god-it was not his skepticism.

what would "god's" voice be?

[Stepper11]

The "voice of God" is not meant to be taken literall as an audible communication (in most cases). It has more to do with that gentle molding of one's understanding by the higher consciousness. I've experienced it many, many times. Most people have, I think, even if they were not aware of it.