The Little Horn of Daniel 8 and the 2300 Day Prophecy - as sung by Jack Marti

[BeIteshazzar]

lol, this song is a riot

[guitmartiman]

@BeIteshazzar It certainly seems to be in terms of the comments it's generated.

[Acerrak]

Lysimachus78 iam curious, if Christ blood at the cross was not for our atonement, and according to ellen the I.J. and the sda His atonement was not given till 1844, my question is were did he get the blood? did he self mutalate to make Himself Bleed? or has He continued beeding since calvary. i am curious to were the blood sacrifice is comming from

[Acerrak]

The most Holy place is were the blood sacrifice in the earthly sanctuary was administered.

Kjv and many others refer to this as the most Holy place, and some call it the Holy of Holies. Hebrews 9;12 is pretty clear on this and your logic is off, Christ went into the most Holy place for the sacrifice, His blood was applied and only Once

Hebrews 10:19-22 says now we have access to the Mosty Holy place or Holy of Holies through the Blood of Christ, and all this was written before I.J

[childrenoftheway]

@guitmartiman I just read your description. I agree that it was the heavenly sanctuary that was cleansed when the 2300 years expired. We're currently living in the "latter time" (Daniel 8v23). At some point, the final anitchrist will appear on the scene. God bless you brother.

[game11221]

Heb9:7only high priest entered 9:11Christ came as H-priest, were did the H- priest enter-2nd apartment! this is context-H9:12

1st apartment represents Jewish era, because the cross had not come. 2nd apartment represents- Lord-death,resurrection dissension

Finished!9:25-26 not to offer himself again&again as H-priest enters MHP every yr. Read all Heb9

Jesus ushered in the new covenant by his blood

1844 face saving excuse, makes the atonement not complete & refutes the Deity of Christ

[Lysimachus78]

@game

Once again, u are as mixed up as a chimpanzee, & you know absolutely NOTHING about 1844, so quit pretending you do. It really gets me angry when Baal-Worshipping, Sun-dial dreaming, hermetic-dragon, Church-father quoting quarter truth artists come in here pretending they know what the Adventist sanctuary doctrine teaches, and then try to dismantle it with swords made of straw. Sacrificial atonement is COMPLETE, but NOT, and I repeat NOT the application of the BENEFITS of that atonement!

[game11221]

@Lysimachus 78 I strongly disagree with you! You believe sda theology! All scholars of worth agree that the sda theology on the 1844 sanctuary teaching is wrong, and can not be proven. I know more on this then you can imagine. You are trying to make something wrong, right! I have listed many questions on this 1844 thing, that never have been answered! Yes there ?'s from your scholars!

So your saying people that don't believe in 1844 are Baal worshipping, I exspect nothing less of the sda

[game11221]

If Rome didn't start trampling sanctuary until 70AD, when who was L- horn power that trampling the Sanctuary between 457BC & 70 D

Is it proper sda to switch interpretting Dan8 as literal to symbolic when their interpretation fails?

Papacy didn't even arise to pre-eminence until 538 AD. So who was trampling the heavenly Sanctuary 500 yrs prior to the advent of the Papacy?

prophecy of Dan8 ended in 1844. Did the Papacy suddenly stop obscuring the work of Jesus in the Sanctuary in1844

[game11221]

@Lysimachus78 You forget I was a sda! So I am not pretending I know the sda theology. You pretend that D8 is about 1844, You are taking scrip. out of context to build you theology! So you could not ever understand were the context exsplains the meaning. Because your locked in, with blinders!

Your trying to prove something but fail! Why can not the sda shcolars answer there own ?'s, The scholars no it is wrong, the admin. need to admit it!

God Bless!!!!!!!!

[Lysimachus78]

@game

Adventists ALL the time emphasize that Christ's sacrifice completed the atonement. But you are very mixed up on what we teach! The benefits of that one-time-sacrifice for all that was finished at the cross is now ACTIVE on our behalf! Everytime a sinner repents, that blood is applied from that one-time sacrifice. That one-time sacrifice was FINISHED, but now that blood is active until Jesus comes. Heb 10:26 makes this VERY clear!

[game11221]

the Day of Atonement was completed in full at Calvary and did not begin in 1844 with a Investigative Judgment.

Eph 1:20(NIV) 20which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms

Col 3:1 (NIV) 1Since, then, you have been raised with Christ, set your hearts on things above, where Christ (IS) seated at the right hand of God (Most Holy Place) You have Christ in the 1st apt untill 1844 were does the bible say that



[game11221]

Heb 1:3 (NIV) 3The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. Heb 9:12 (NIV) 12He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, having obtained eternal redemption.

[game11221]

Heb 10:12 (NIV) 12But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God.

Heb 10:19 (NIV) 19Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus, Heb 12:2 (NIV) 2Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

[Lysimachus78]

@game11

So if you want to debate me, bring it on. I've got the highest scholarly research on this matter. Every single debate I've ran into my opponents of 1844 have run into a brick wall. So if you wish to lose a debate, let's go for it! :)

[game11221]

@Lysimachus78 read my PM to you!!!

(highest scholarly research on this matter)

so did Ford!

(have run into a brick wal)

For your eyes

Please just answer to my PM by PM to much to write, I have only sent you about 1% of what I have on this.

It is not about winning or losing it is about truth! only ones that believe in you theology will see your way.

[Acerrak]

@Lysimachus78 the problem comes is this mysterious investiagtive judgment never was tought by any apostle, never mentiond in the old testament. Jews in judaism never speak about it, and it is never a hot topic around the theological coffee table.

the fact that Christ was recorded entering the Holy of Holies which was recored in Hebrew was recored almost 2000 years ago.

so what paper are you gonna through out at me that is a brick wall?

[Acerrak]

@Lysimachus78 let me give you some plain logic, God is Omniscience, or all knowing. He knows everything you have done, and will do, even before you were born. so why would he have to investigate anything when the facts are already on the table.

John 3:18 states the world is already condemned because they do not believe on the Son. I guess He made up His mind before 1844.

or do you not believe His work was finished at the cross?

[Lysimachus78]

@Acerrak

God is all knowing, so why does he do the investigative judgment? For our benefit, not his. He does it to instill the significance of final purification and character development before final entry into the Heavenly Canaan. Your logic doesn't hold water, because then why would God need to hold a judgment at all if he already knows who is going to be saved and who is going to be lost from beginning to end? Why not just save those who he knows will repent later?

[Acerrak]

@Lysimachus78 he gave me scriptures for my benifit.

Romans 5:11 11And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

Romans 8 1There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Ephesians 4:30 30And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

sorry no crackes in this pot, it holds water

[Acerrak]

@Lysimachus78 why dont you also explain to are viewers the false doctrine of the shut door policy that adventist used and how no one after 1844 could be saved, and how they had to change it for there own benefit as well, since this was also apart of the so called investigative judgment

[Lysimachus78]

@Acerrak

You know what? You weary me. The shut door policy has been addressed in numerous expositions in Adventist published theological literature. You can go read the material if you want the answer. There is no use in re-inventing the wheel. It's very simple Acerrak. If the Antitypical Day of Atonement was over, Christ would come. But the fact that Hebrews makes it very clear that He is still interceding for us on our behalf in the Heavenly Sanctuary is ample proof that....(cont.)

[Acerrak]

@Lysimachus78 i told you tht would just throw some paper up in my face and not a brick wall, we can even get deeper in to the terrible interpretation of 2300 years when in context of daniels prayers we see the angel tell him about the restoration of the temple. Do you knw that was fullfilled with nehemiah and ezra, as they left to rebuild the city and sanctified the Temple in ezra 5

this is a attempt by the sda to be a exclusionist and a desperate act to keep a dead movement alive

[Lysimachus78]

@Acerrak

Read the papers, & deal with the arguments presented in those papers. I'm sorry Acerrak, but if you choose to not read the material, that is your problem. As for me, I will read opposing books, I do it all the time to clear my conscience. But u apparently feel safe in your conscience to read all the Anti-SDA materials, but not take out time to read the SDA rebuttals. If that is your choice, then so be it. I know what I believe, and have been given no evidence that I am wrong.

[Acerrak]

@Lysimachus78 actually i just need one book the bible,

let me get this scripture

hebrews 10:12 But this man( Jesus), after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; yes i understand the term right hand of God but you need to understand He already made the sacrifice your sins is blotted out and what we must do is endure to the end, but He already knows are outcome

that kills you Investiagtive judgment.

[Lysimachus78]

@Acerrak

The interpretation of the 2300 days as years, from 457 to 1844 is unshakeable, and will continue to be unsheakeable and unmovable to the very end of time. Not a pin has been removed from it, as it is a solid as the very dwelling place of God. I am currently reading The Prophetic Faith of Our Fathers 4 volume set, and have already counted about 20-30 some expositors of history, prior to any Adventist, who calculated the 2300 days and 70 weeks as tied together.

[Acerrak]

@Lysimachus78 its only unshakeable in your mind, im very sorry for you. you have wasted so much time on a lie.

the earthly santuary was a figure, and at the cross our Priest made the sacrifice our day of atonement , His Blood poured on the alter of the Holy of Holies,

the only significant thing about 1844 is and remains today as in history a great disapoinment who is still consuming peoples minds with a web of lies and cover ups.

[Lysimachus78]

@Ace

There is absolutely no doubt that the context of Daniel's prayers encompass a much broader picture. You fail to remember that Daniel FAINTED when he thought that God was going to prolong 70 years of Captivity to 2300 yrs! Why do u think he said he did not understand the vision??? In other words, God's answer concerning the 2300 yrs was not the answer he was looking for! His answer did not come until Daniel 9:22-27 pertaining to the "cut off portion" of 70 wks out of the 2300 for the Jews!

[Lysimachus78]

(cont.) is ample proof that the Antitypical day of Atonement has not terminated. On the Typical Day of Atonement, the High Priest walked outside of the sanctuary, & blessed the people. This represents Christ leaving the sanctuary, & coming to reap the harvest. Since Christ is still in the Heavenly Sanctuary, this alone is sufficient proof that Christ's ministration necessitates the conclusion that the Antitypical day of Atonement is not complete, otherwise, there is no reason for Christ to wait

[Acerrak]

@Lysimachus78 problem is He forever sat down at the right hand of God, and the bible clearly states on the day of crucifiction the temple was curtain was torn, meaning that all people now have acess to the Holy of Holies.

In revalations pretty good picture souls under the alter wanting vengenece, and the Lord told them to wait that not all there brethern or fellow servents who would be killed was completed, He waites cause His signs must be fullfilled

[Lysimachus78]

@Acerrak

No Acerrak, you are wrong. Several passages in Revelation reveal Christ as standing in the midst of the golden candlesticks. The term "sat down" does not denote that he is "physically siting", rather infers to an office of position, such as Bush taking the "seat of the Presidency". Also, the curtain that tore does not denote that the Most Holy was accessible to all people. It denotes that the earthly sanctuary came to an end. The Heavenly Curtain did not tear in half.

[Lysimachus78]

@Acerrak

The souls crying under the alter reflects a primary application of the souls who died during the Dark Ages, and is typified in Genesis 4:10 where the blood of able cries from the ground. This alter of sacrifice was located in the Court, and the Court is where the lamb was sacrifice, which typifies Christ being crucified on the earth. Therefore, these souls are the blood of martrys crying from the earthly alter in the court, not the alter in Holy or Most Holy Place.

[Lysimachus78]

@Acerrak

Also, blood was only poured out on the ground by the Alter in the court, therefore, the symbolism is accurate. The souls (can also be interpreted as life, or blood) cries out to avenge those. We know that the life of the flesh is in the blood (Lev 17:11). So there are no such thing as ghostly floating spirits caught under an altar. Only carnal minds as yourself interpret such things literally. Spiritual things are spiritually discerned (1 Cor 2:14)

[Acerrak]

@Lysimachus78 calling me carnal cause i cant understand your point of view is a lame attempt at a personal insult againt me. when the Spirit is clear in the word of God that The sacrifice was already in the Mind of God before man was ever created. Jesus said it IT IS FINIShed!

this I.J has no fruit in it, its a deception of the devil just as the sda teach placing our sins on the devil. Lies, doctrines of devils and demons,

the Blind lead the Blind no proof of I>J

[Lysimachus78]

@Acerrak

Your main problem is that you do not understand the Hebrew use of the word "Judgment". You think that this word denotes critical analysis of our works. Rather, this word "judgment" has multiple uses, and the use in the context of the Sanctuary and the Holy of Holies has to do with "vindicating the righteous". It is good news for the righteous, not bad news. The blood was never poured on the ground in the Holy of Holies. I repeat: The Altar being spoken of is the COURT altar. Period.

[Lysimachus78]

@Acerrak

The blood of the lamb was sprinkled on the Ark of the Covenant, not poured on the ground. The altar being spoken of is by the SACRIFICIAL altar, which is on the earth, as Christ DIED on the earth. The terminology is derived from the blood of Abel, who's blood was spilled before the sacrificial altar.

[Lysimachus78]

Acerrak, to be clear: While I am dissatisfied with the condition & moral apostasy of the SDA Church, my reasons for not being in harmony with them have nothing to do with your reasons for not being in harmony with them. I've disassociated myself with the much of the Conference & its structure so that I & my family can put into practice true primitive Godliness, as we unite together & learn what it means to become of one mind and of one heart, for which the Church has forgotten. (cont.)

[Lysimachus78]

(cont.) However, concerning your allegation that the SDA Church is a dying Church, you are living in a fictional, fantasy world, and it is apparent that you are unwilling to come out of your little fantastical bubble. The Adventist Church has now grown to 16 million people. Do I agree with this? No, but while the people are not living in harmony with the beliefs, the doctrines are getting more and more solid. The IJ is stronger today than it has ever been before....(cont.)

[Lysimachus78]

(cont.) So instead of living in your little fantasia land, u need to come out and face reality. I just got back from the General Conference Session in Atlanta, & there were 70,000 people there, & was there when Ted Wilson held the sermon. There is NO DOUBT that the core doctrines of the IJ r still SOLID pillars within the Adventist Church, & have not been moved. The materials now available to support our foundational pillars r overwhelming, & u are hurting yourself when u deny these plain facts.

[Acerrak]

@Lysimachus78 the problem with the pillar of I.J no matter how solid in the foundation the adventist church, does not mke it right. I dont care how many people agree on it, it doesnt make it right.

I will tell you now that Blood is the Spirit of God that clenses you and blots out your sins.

[Lysimachus78]

@Acerrak

Fine then, if you want to discuss whether the IJ is biblical or not, then let's do that. But don't forget that you were ranting on about how the SDA Church is a dying breed, and how the IJ is dying, and all that. So I was replying to that. So now that I respond to that, you jump the gun and huddle back into the "scriptures only" position. I would say this is the safest position to stay in, rather than complain about Adventism in general.

[Acerrak]

@Lysimachus78 when i refer to the adventist church dying i was reffering to the 2 men who came up with the idea of 1844 etc who were trying to save there dying "little flock "" so to speak, i acknowledge sda have grown, and if they would remove these doctrines from there fundamentals and remove ellen white they would grow much more, exspecially if they got back into the bible and out of ellens words and interpretation

[Lysimachus78]

@Acerrak

Let me ask you a question. What do you do with the fact that there are 2 hebrew words for "vision" in Daniel 8 and 9? 1. Chazon, and 2. Mareh ?

In Daniel 8:1,2 the vision of the "Goat", "Ram", "Little Horn", and "4 notable horns" are referred to as the "chazon", or entire vision. But the "mareh" (vision) in 8:26, and 27 is pertaining to the "evening and morning", or the 2300 evening-mornings. 9:21-23 picks up on the "mareh", the 2300 that Daniel did not understand.

[Acerrak]

@Lysimachus78 here is another topic that goes against I.J. doctrine, would be the thief on the cross, The Lord says today you will be with me in paradise. How can adentist claimed that moses was resurected if His sins had not been blotted out? What about abraham and Isaac and Jacob sitting at the table in the Kingdom?

were is there investigation. how can they be there if there sins are not blotted out

[Lysimachus78]

@Ace

"Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come." (Revelation 14:7).

There is a vast difference between blotting out the sins from an individual vs. blotting out the sins from the sanctuary. The purpose for accumulating the sins is so that after Christ has bore them and paid the penalty for them, they will finally be dumped on Satan, the scapegoat. Also, forgiveness of sins is enough to save someone.

[Acerrak]

@Lysimachus78 o satan the scapegoat? lets see what scripture states

laid on him the iniquity of us all. (Isa 53:6 NIV)

my righteous servant will justify many, and he will bear their iniquities. (Isa 53:11 NIV)

He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree1 Pet. 2:24 NIV

And he {Christ} is the propitiation {atonement} for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for [the sins of] the whole world. (1 John 2:2)

[Acerrak]

@Lysimachus78

The Scapegoat was sent out of the Israelite camp, and likewise, Jesus suffered outside the city:

And so Jesus also suffered outside the city gate to make the people holy through his own blood. Let us, then, go to him outside the camp, bearing the disgrace he bore. (Heb. 13:12,13)

[Lysimachus78]

@Ace

The thief did not go to heaven on that day. That was impossible. The thief was still alive Friday night, so that was already into the second day. Secondly, Christ did not ascend to His Father until Sunday morning. Thirdly, the term "today" is not in reference to the thief being in paradise, it is a declaration that "Today I'm telling you this..." In other words, Jesus is assuring him that day that he WILL (future) be with Him in paradise.

[Lysimachus78]

@Ace

You are creating false parallels, as you simply do not understand the IJ, or how it works. You are completely oblivious to its deep meaning and it's spiritual significance, this is why you continue to make false parallels. Regarding Moses and Elijah being in heaven: Let me raise the question: If an Israelite died before the sins were blotted out on the Day of Atonement, does this mean the Israelite could not be saved? You getting the picture? ;) This completely destroys your argument.

[Acerrak]

@Lysimachus78 John 10:14 (NIV) 14“I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me—

On the other hand EGW tells us that Jesus needed the I J to determine who they are. Did Jesus forget who were his sheep since the first century and then have to schedule an 1844 I J to refresh his memory? Heb 9:12 (NIV) 12He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, having obtained eternal redemption.

[Lysimachus78]

@Acerrak

The original Greek for Hebrews 9:12 is "hagia", referring to "Holy Place". Paul himself already defined the Most Holy in Hebrews 9:1-3 as "hagia hagion". Paul would not be inconsistent by referring to the Most Holy as Hagia, when he already defined his own rules. There is not ONE single verse in all of Hebrews that references Christ's ministration in the Most Holy Place according to the original Greek.

[Acerrak]

@Lysimachus78 hageen, or hagion they were all used to represent about 4 different meanings from the inner sanctuary to the holy of Holies and of the sanctuary, same word

[Lysimachus78]

@Acerrak,

You are still not allowing Paul to define Paul. He already defines the Most Holy Place as "hagia hagion", or "Holy of Holies". 

[Lysimachus78]

First off, there are 3 Greek expressions Paul uses to describe the sanctuary in the book of Hebrews:

1. Hagion [singular] = Holies – or Entire two-apartment sanctuary (9:1)

2. Hagia [plural] = Holy Places – or First Apartment of the sanctuary (9:2)

3. Hagia Hagion = Holies of Holies – Second Apartment or Most Holy Place of the sanctuary (9:3)

[Lysimachus78]

There are also 2 Greek expressions Paul uses to describe the veil of the sanctuary:

1. Katapetasma = First Veil, or just “Veil” – The veil to the First Apartment or Holy Place (10:20)

2. To Deuteron Katapetasma = Second Veil – The veil to the Second Apartment or Most Holy Place (9:3)

[Lysimachus78]

Hebrews 9:1-3 -

“(1) Then verily the first covenant had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary [HAGION, or “entire sanctuary”]. (2) For there was a tabernacle made; the first, wherein was the candlestick, and the table, and the showbread; which is called the sanctuary [HAGIA, or Holy Place]. (3) And after the SECOND veil [TO DEUTERON KATAPETASMA, or “second veil”], the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of all [HAGIA HAGION, or Most Holy Place].”

[Lysimachus78]

In Hebrews 9:1-3, Paul clearly provides the rules of his own definitions when describing the sanctuary. The Most Holy Place, beyond the “second veil”, is rendered in the double: “hagia hagion”.

[Lysimachus78]

Now let’s evaluate the verse in question that Mike is using to try and prove that Christ entered into the Most Holy Place immediately upon his ascension:

Hebrews 10:19,20 -

“(19) Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest [HAGIA, or “first apartment”] by the blood of Jesus, (20) By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil [KATAPETASMA, or first veil], that is to say, his flesh.

[JesusIsEnough777]

@Lysimachus78 where is the throne of God? Where was the throne of God in the earthly temple?

[Lysimachus78]

Take careful notice to the Greek when Paul says "veil" and "second veil". Also take careful notice to the differences between "hagia", "hagion", and "hagia hagion". In 10:19-the KJV incorrectly translates "hagia" as "holiest" In 9:8-the KJV incorrectly translates "hagia" as "holiest of all." In both 10:19 and 9:8.

[Lysimachus78]

(cont.)

Take careful notice to the Greek when Paul says "veil" and "second veil". Also take careful notice to the differences between "hagia", "hagion", and "hagia hagion". In 10:19-the KJV incorrectly translates "hagia" as "holiest" In 9:8-the KJV incorrectly translates "hagia" as "holiest of all." In both 10:19 and 9:8. The KJV ignorantly translated "hagia" as the second apartment.

[Lysimachus78]

Paul's 9:2 definition would render it the first apartment, and the Old Testament name for it as "holy place" would also render it the first apartment.

Once the Greek speaks, our sanctuary doctrine cannot be torn down. In fact, there is not one single mention of Christ interceding for us in the Most Holy Place of heaven in all of Hebrews when the Greek is put to the test. Every. Single. Verse. is pertaining to the Holy Place of the Heavenly Sanctuary.

[Lysimachus78]

The fact is, all the way from Hebrews 9:8 – 13:12, whenever it is referencing Christ’s present ministration, Paul uses “ta hagia”, not “hagia hagion”.

Regarding the word “hagion”, Abingdon"s Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible defines the word thus:

39. hagion {hag'-ee-on} neuter of 40; a sacred thing (i.e. spot):---holiest (of all), holy place, sanctuary.

[Lysimachus78]

@Acerrak

Another problem why it is difficult for you to understand 1844 and the IJ Acerrak, is because you do not realize that the Father's Throne was in the Holy Place upon Christ's ascension. The proof of this lies in Revelation 4:5, where the seven golden candlesticks were burning BEFORE THE THRONE of the Father, and the 7 Golden Candlesticks are ALWAYS in the Holy Place!

[Acerrak]

@Lysimachus78 im fixing to get off work, i will address your issues at later time.

[Lysimachus78]

@Acerrak

It is not until 1844 that both the Father and the Son moved from the Holy to the Most Holy Place. The thrones were "placed", or moved from the First to the Second Apartment, then the Father moved to the Holy of Holies, then the Son followed.  Daniel 7 makes it very clear that this event is taking place AFTER the Little Horn!!!! It says that the Son CAME BEFORE the Ancient of Days! (7:13). And 7:8,9 make it very clear that the Little Horn precedes this event!

[Lysimachus78]

@Acerrak

John 10:14... Jesus knows His sheep, and His sheep know him. But read verses 7 and 8 before:

"So Jesus again said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep. All who came before me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not listen to them."

Sounds like the sheep made a conscience choice to not listen to others but rather only listen to Jesus.

[Lysimachus78]

@Acerrak

Instead of me having to write in hundreds of text boxes, I will make it simple for u. Go to Pickle-Publishing . com, on the left-hand side, click "Research Papers". Scroll down to the very button under "Apologetics", & click "A Response to the Video: Seventh-day Adventism: The Spirit behind the Church", then click section 5: "The Investigative Judgment and Shut Door, and Their Ramifications", & read carefully #43-#73. Better yet, I recommend you purchase the Hard-Copy book for $10.

[Acerrak]

@Lysimachus78 i wouldnt want to waste my time or money on study into a corn fields farmer dream who was so desperate to save his dieing church, and whose philosphy was backed by a un-inspired woman claiming divine authority.

i dont have to proove investigative judgment wrong the bibel already does it, it is in your corner to proove it right, and it isnt going to happen

[Lysimachus78]

@game

1844 was NOT a face saving excuse. U could argue & say that the Disciples face-saved themselves by saying that Jesus really meant a kingdom in heaven, not an earthly kingdom, to face-save them from the humiliation when Jesus did not come to set up an earthly kingdom. The disciples were disappointed on Christ's 1st coming. But this did not make the disciples wrong that Jesus was the Messiah.

[game11221]

L-78 SDA scholar Dr.R.Cottrell explains the Terrible Adventist Dilemma, YOU own scholar disagrees with you

& Jesus & Disciples thought his return would be soon! I would think Jesus understood DAN. So were NT John, Mark, Luke, Paul, ect. mention 1844 thing.

SDA have start in earthly then move it to the Heavenly. So tell me when the switch, was it 70ad like sda say or at the cross like EW said. you don't understand what Cottrell is saying because you don't understand context of Dan8

[game11221]

@Lysimachus 78 U could argue & say that the Disciples face-saved themselves

That is like comparing apples to oranges. You could use that reasoning with anything you disagree with.

[Lysimachus78]

@game

Heb 9:1-3 make it very clear that the Holy Place is termed "hagia", & the Most Holy Place is termed "hagia hagion". Paul defined his term for Most Holy Place here. Every single other verse, where it talks about Christ's High Priestly Ministry, it is talking about the "hagia" or 1st apartment of the heavenly sanctuary! From Heb 9-13! If Paul had wanted to make it clear that Christ had entered into the M-Holy, He would have said He entered once into the "hagio hagion". But HE DID NOT!

[game11221]

@Lysimachus78 Heb 9:1-3 make it very clear that the Holy Place is termed "hagia", & the Most Holy Place is.

This is the dumbest thing I have heared. The context is Most holy place. even sda's scholars know this. That is why they have Christ going to the MHP then to HP then back to MHP. Again were does the bible say that! It doesn't!!

Your asuming again!

[Lysimachus78]

@game

1st apartment does not represent Jewish era, because the High Priest AND the priests entered into the Holy Place throughout the year with the BLOOD of the lamb. Christ had not died on the cross yet in the Jewish Era, so what blood was being applied on the Alter of Incense? Therefore, this doctrine of yours that the 1st apartment represents the Jewish Era is a doctrine of Devils, and it is false. You need to be rebuked for this doctrine of heresy.

[Lysimachus78]

@game11221

You may say that you know more of this than you can imagine, but I guarantee you game11...I know FAR more about this subject that you could possibly even begin to fathom. Talk about 13 years of intensive research into prophetic hermeneutics, coupled with my father's 40 years of scholarly research. I fellowship with other evangelicals, have debated top theologians, and am writing a book entitled "Vindicating the Historicist Hermeneutic". Trust me, the 1844 stands VINDICATED! :)

[game11221]

@Lysimachus78 You writting a book! Good for you!

Ford wrote many books on this! And I think he did a little research on this too. But what he found differs from you. And at this time I agree with Ford!

God Bless!

[Acerrak]

@Lysimachus78 even sda scholars admit that hermeneutic of sunday worship was consistant from apostoloc age, and was defended. and there is nothing to vinidicate the worthless failed prophesy of Miller's prediction, there is no chart that prooves 1844 is anything except a great disappointment. Even Miller admited He was wrong, isnt that Odd yet you a re trying to vindicate the Invetigative cover up

[game11221]

SDA scholar Dr.R.Cottrell explains the Terrible Adventist Dilemma

Context of Dan8:14 attributes the defiling the sanctuary to the little horn. SDA's interpretation attributes it to transfer confessed sins to the heavenly sanctuary by priestly ministry of Christ. To pretend to ourselves the SDA interpretation reads Dan8:14 in context would thus be to identify the little horn as Christ. Other words, we can't have both context & the Adventist interpretation as the Bible itself is concerned

[Lysimachus78]

@game11221

You are obviously very confused about the little horn defiling the sanctuary. Some Adventists interpret the "daily" as paganism, being taken away by the Papacy, other Adventists believe that the Daily represents the high priestly ministry of Christ, and that it defiles the sanctuary by forgiving sins in place of Christ. The Papacy fits the context to a T, and the cleansing of the sanctuary in 1844 makes perfect sense, as it comes after 1798 when the Horn received the deadly wound.

[game11221]

@Lysimachus78

The rise of the 'great horn' Alexander)comes 1st

He rules for a time, and is 'broken'

His empire is divided into four new empires

The 'little horn' comes on the scene AFTER this division

One event is dependent upon another, and we can follow the course of these events through history. Now, consider the following chronology carefully:

Alexander died in 323 BC

Alexander's kingdom was divided in 301 BC

The little horn could not have come on the scene until AFTER 301 BC

[Chemassul]

When did The little the little horn come to supremacy

[guitmartiman]

In 533 Justinian (the last emperor of Rome) decreed that John, Bishop of Rome, was to be the Chief Bishop of all the churches. However, that didn't take full effect until 538 when the Ostragoths (the last of the three rebel kingdoms) abandoned their siege of Rome, allowing the Bishop of Rome to freely exercise the prerogatives of Justinian's decree.

[Daniel8Verse14]

I love this song. Thanks. I'm also a child of The Way.

[childrenoftheway]

Great song! I'm not a SDA, but I have many of the same beliefs SDA's have. I believe the little horn is the papacy and that the 2300 days expired in 1969, the year the pope took the daily away from the world's Catholics. 1969 is also 2300 years after Alexander the Great annexed our holy city (332 BC).

[guitmartiman]

Very interesting!

[Lysimachus78]

@children

I've heard the theory before, that the 2300 ends in 1969 & began in 332 when Alexander annexed Jerusalem. However, I have to disagree with the timing brother, cuz Dan in 8:13 asks "how long the vision (chazon)?" & the angel answers "2300 days". All u have to do is go to vs 2 where Dan says "I saw in a vision" & the vision starts with what? With the RAM! (verse 3). Therefore, the 2300 begins with the Ram (Persia), not the Goat (Greece). The 2300 encompasses the TOTALITY of the vision!

[soupgrill]

It's 2300 evenings and mornings, not days so you can't use the year/ day principle. If he wanted us to use the year/ day principle he would've just said days.

[guitmartiman]

If you'll notice Daniel 8 is written in sanctuary language or symbology. The beasts are all animals used in the sacrificial service. Cleansing or justification of the sanctuary was what was done on the day of atonement. The 2300 evenings and mornings are sanctuary language for days of atonement which happened on a yearly basis in the sanctuary service. The day for a year principle still applies, it's just written in sanctuary language.

[guitmartiman]

Besides, if Daniel 9 and onward is the angel's explanation of what Daniel saw in chapter 8, how can the day for a year principle apply to Daniel 9:24-27 as most Bible scholars say it does, and yet not apply to Daniel 8? Furthermore, if Daniel 8 has little or nothing to do with what is being explained in Daniel 9, where, then, do you get the starting point for the twenty-three hundred evenings and mornings?

[soupgrill]

The starting point is from when Antiochus IV set up the abomination of desolation in the Temple, it makes absolutely no sense to begin the 2300-day prophecy in 457 BC because the sanctuary was not desolated until hundreds of years later 'by the little horn' ...not by the blood of Jesus or the sins of the people or the Papacy, which didn't come along until the 4th century AD, and so you're left with having to cut and chop the angels explanation and 2300 years to make it all fit in.

[soupgrill]

Daniel 9 and onwards is not the angel's explanation of what Daniel saw in chapter 8 11 years ago! The Daniel 8 vision had already been explained in full. When Gabriel explains the vision he says the little horn will arise in the latter days of the Diadochi Kingdoms and that this entity, referred to in 3rd person singular human form, will do what you say the Papacy does which didn't arise till the end of the Roman Kindom which Gabriel does not mention. So you have a 4-6 century time dilemna.

[soupgrill]

It doesn't look like my reply for this came through so just briefly- this sanctuary symbology is an invention by SDA. If it is 2300 Days of atonements then that means it started before the Messiah came and died for our sins which "We also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have NOW received the atonement. (Rom. 5:11)" Also, in the footnotes (NKJV) of Dan 9:24 you will find "weeks" should be "seven", which means 70 "seven" year periods.

[Lysimachus78]

soupgrill, your logic about the 2300 evenings and mornings not being days is illogical. It's interesting how people like you are willing to interpret the 70 weeks as 490 years, yet the word "weeks" is "sevens"...but we know this means "weeks". Same with "evenings and mornings", we know this means "days". Gen. 1:5 says "And the EVENING [ereb] and the MORNING [boqer] were the first DAY!" In Dan 8:14 it says "2300 evening-mornings [ereb-boqer]. They are fused together into one word in Hebrew.

[Lysimachus78]

The translators were obviously intelligent enough to know that "ereb-boqer" stood for a "day".

Also, let's say that it does stand for "2300 evening and morning sacrifices". The context of Daniel 8 is speaking about the Day of Atonement when the sanctuary would be cleansed... and this cleansing happened, how often? ONCE A YEAR! So 2300 evening and morning sacrifices would still be 2300 years, because the cleansing and sacrifice on the Day of Atonement only occurred only once a year. :)

[soupgrill]

It doesn't say" 2300 evening and morning sacrifices", it just says" 2300 evenings and mornings, then the sancuary would be cleansed". You shouldn't add what's not there. By the time Hebrews was written( AD 60-70) Jesus had already entered the heavenly sancuary- Heb 9:12"Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption." So to say he re-entered it in 1844 contradicts this and recrucifies Jesus.

[Lysimachus78]

Soupgrill,

I did not say "2300 evening and morning sacrifices". I'm saying that's what I thought you meant. The words "sacrifice" were added in Daniel 8:11-13, so I agree with you.

Also, Hebrews 9:12 does not say "He entered the Most Holy Place". It says "He entered once into the HOLY PLACE [first apartment of the heavenly sanctuary]". You are quoting from a false translation of Hebrews 9:12 known as the NKJV. The proper Greek rendering is "Holy Place" [KJV], not "Most Holy"

[soupgrill]

This holy place is where the high priest offered blood sacrifices every year- Heb 9: 25Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;

[Lysimachus78]

One more thing soupgrill,

For absolute proof that Heb 9:12 says Christ entered the "Holy Place" in 31 A.D. and not the "Most Holy Place", please check this full exegesis on it:

BibleMinistry . org / sanctuary . html (remove spaces)

For the record, even the ASV and NASB Bibles properly render the Greek as "Holy Place", not "Most Holy Place". The idea is that Christ entered the Holy Place in A.D. 31, and in 1844 He entered the Most Holy Place.

[soupgrill]

In Dan 8:22-23 it plainly says the king will arise at the end of the Diadochi kingdoms c.200BC not in 538 BC and it also says the transgressors are come to the full by the time the king arises not past the end in 1844AD after SDA says the Papacy has already fallen in 1798. :)

[soupgrill]

Here's the text, KJV styles 22Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power. 23And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

[Lysimachus78]

soupgril,

The 2300 days is concerning the "time" of the "vision", not the "time of how long the little horn reigns". The tyranny of the "Little Horn" is only a part of the 2300 time frame. Once you understand this, then there is nothing wrong with 1844.

[soupgrill]

I'm not saying 2300 days is the time of how long the little horn reigns. I'm saying the little horn comes up during the latter time of the Greek Empire during the Diadochi reign so it had to be around 200-100BC not in 538 AD. And this happens after the transgressors have "come to the full"... not 13 centuries before (538-1844).

[soupgrill]

If Gabriel had said "And AFTER the latter time of the next kingdom, BEFORE the trangressors have come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up." then your interpretation could work but unfortunately for you he didn't say that which leaves you with a HUGE chronological error in your interpretation.

[joshG747]

Love the song!Great voice.

[Studier101]

There is no reason to absolutely necessitate 1844 as a special occurence.

The work of Christ's High Priestly office is complete because He is seated at the Right Hand of God.

Keep making songs and prophecy songs, as well, though.

I appreciate your ministry brother!!

[guitmartiman]

"Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them" (Heb. 7:25). If Jesus' high priestly ministry is finished or "complete" as you say, why is it that He still needs to make intercession for us or "them" if you prefer? The thing that is complete and finished is His sacrifice in our behalf. His priestly ministry continues. He is still pleading the merit of His blood in our behalf.

[Studier101]

Perceptive, Jack.

Of course, His ministry of intercession continues.

I was just trying to deny the Adventist teaching of investigative judgement, etc.

God Bless,

Studier101

[guitmartiman]

There is a world of difference between denying a teaching and refuting it. To deny a doctrine is merely to declare that you do not wish to believe it for whatever reasons, real or imagined. To refute it is to show convincing evidence as to why it is not true. I am convinced that there is a judgment of works that occurs before Jesus comes, else why would he say, "behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be" (Rev. 22: 12)?

[guitmartiman]

Our works don't save us, but our works do give evidence as to whether or not our faith is genuine. There's plenty of scriptural evidence that indicates there will be many who think they are saved, but are not. For instance, "Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity" (Mat. 7:22-23).

[boogertoots]

That was very beautiful Jack, very beautiful!!

♫ Derek J. Holak ♫

[harleyhawgn]

A top shelf performance and video here Jack. A great story and a great song. THANKS FOR SHARING, I ENJOYED THIS ONE ALOT, C.W.

[frangoudi]

Perfect! Great voice, dear friend Guitmartiman. Just like fairytale!

God bless you all5*

[pianogirl4ever]

You composed this? Wow! Very nice! And your deep voice is very nice too! (*^^*)

[guitmartiman]

I don't really think of myself as having a really deep voice, but it seemed appropriate to sing this song this way. Obviously I didn't write the lyrics, but, yes I did compose the music. I'm glad it met with your approval! :o)

[zoarXgold]

very sweet and cleansing. :)

[blondi35]

Beautifuul song with the scripture,thanks for sharing God Bless.

[jonbob100]

woo HaliluYah!

[robbyveggett]

I'm blessed by your song as always! Keep up the good job!

[vinnieActs2030]

I like it! Great job! I like scripture put to music, really nice. Thank You! Blessings..... :)

[abaneyone]

Wow this is great! It's nice to hear Scripture put to song! Thanks so much for posting it!

[ronaldlavigne]

thankyou so much , prophecy sung is so amazing. the Lord bless you , Glory to God. love in Christ bro Ron REVELATION CHAPTER 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.