@xxxxLetsRidexxxxx So, when I decide I don't want to pay taxes to the government (for whatever reason), what happens? Do they say, "Sorry you feel that way, have a good day and enjoy your choice." or do they eventually come to my house with guns and take me to prison? Something that is Voluntary is something you do of your own volition of choice. If I was not compelled by threat of violence, I would not pay my taxes, so taxes are mandatory.
@xxxxLetsRidexxxxx So that explains bank account levies, property seizures and auction does it? Why would they jail people for failure to file? If payment is voluntary, why is failure to NOT volunteer to disclose your income a federal felony? Answer the questions, moron.
How did the tax code reach a staggering size of 70,000 pages? Through the efforts of lobbyists who are drawn to Washington to manipulate the tax laws. Because government has the power to grant special privileges and pass legislation which can favor some and penalize others, it creates a breeding ground for powerful, outside influences. The less power government has, the less likely it is that lobbying tactics will be effective. Eliminate government power and lobbying will become obsolete.
What an idiot. While I was legitimately disputing a tax bill with the IRS they levied my bank accounts. I was doing things their way and they in effect bankrupted me until I paid the amount in dispute. Even the guy I was dealing with at the IRS office expressed surprise and said they were being excessive in their reaction.
Under our tax laws, income taxes are "voluntary", but the people have been tricked into believing that income taxes are mandatory for fear of imprisonment and fines. The reason the tax code says "voluntary" is because they knew that constitutionally, it would never hold up in the supreme court. So since its inception, the IRS has used fear to force payment. The politician is argueing that we all pay for the common good even though it goes against what our constitutional republic is all about.
There is no Democracy, the fed controls the government, makes the laws, controls the lawmakers, and this puppet spouts the pablum of the money changers as taught him to keep the truth hidden...we are NOT a free society, that ended long ago.
Joe is a moronic thieving asshole. The public gave the "right" of the government to steal. ...But it wasn't theirs to give.
I love the propaganda of how he keeps saying "self government". It's not self-government, it's one group of secretive murderers and robbers violating everyone's rights (even their own).
I accept no such notion that the majority rules. There are no laws that protect private property. No such thing in America.
So if the majority voted to enslave you, then we would say that you voluntarily accepted becoming a slave since you had the chance to vote against it.
@liOVERLOADil Somalia was recovering nicely and infrastructure (schools, electric, clean water, etc.) were progressing under the free market conditions for the short period before the UN instituted a government that proceeded to pillage and rape (in every sense of the word) the people. Now Somalia is fucked.
@liOVERLOADil This is youtube, citations are not allowed, do your own research though and you'll find the information. P.S. Where is your citation for the communist regime comment? Last I checked they were not under a communistic government.
@janhelfeld Exactly my feelings. I never would vote for someone who wants to allow my labors to be taxed. So how is it voluntary. I never had a say in it.
whats so hard to understand about joe's position jan?
He considers taxes as voluntary because we voluntarily elect government officials who then represent our opinoins when they create tax laws. Once the law is in effect you obviously must pay it.
But if you dont want taxes then try to elect someone who will eliminate them.
If you can't get someone elected that means the majority prefers taxes and your outta luck. Thats how a representative democracy works
I have never voted for anyone orlofskye. Do you think your property rights extend onto mine? If not, do you think you and one other person's does? If not, why do you think a 100 million all of a sudden magically do?
OK, suppose we take a vote? Everyone here who thinks that there is some special definition of voluntary that applies to taxes but not to everything else, please raise your hands.
And everyone who thinks that when government has you fined or arrested for breaking that law that this somehow is transmuted from force as we know it by the magic of the general will?
Maybe I'm deluding myself but I think I see most people favoring straightforward definitions.
I don't see how he's being inconsistent. What he's saying is that on an individual basis, taxes are required by law to be paid, but the government that demands and receives the tax money is the one that we as a society voluntarily put into power. So taxes are involuntary for us as individuals, but are voluntary for us as society because we voluntarily chose the government that levies the taxes.
This is NOT a democracy. The majority does NOT rule. This idiot needs to go back to school and learn about the government and constitution he was elected to serve, uphold and defend.
All Jan's interviewees have such trouble with the plain, honest language that Jan uses. They are masters of Orwellian doublespeak and squirm when blunter terms are used. It pains their brains to think in this way. I think this reflects the society we now live in, where up is down and yes means no.
He says that you've got a choice of who you elect. True. He says you've got a choice as to whether or not you "participate" in a democracy. False. When a young kid gets his first paycheck 1/3 of the money has already been confiscated, where's the choice?
This is just another typical politician thief. He has no problem with stealing your money. He is a criminal statist indulging in constant irrational blabforth.
the particular logical fallacy Mr. Hoefful is making (or at least one of them) is called "special pleading. He is arguing that force isn't force if the government does it and stealing isn't stealing if it is done by the majority. Also he is arguing that government is "self government" even for the minority, even when a minority is oppressed by the majority. This argument is a mockery of language and does violence to logic and reason.
why are they so afraid to say that taxes aren't voluntary? all democrats are socialists, and if they actually stand for what they believe, they shouldn't be hesitant to say it.
Most democrats and some republicans (the so-called neo-conservatives) are socialists. They just don't label themselves that way because it sounds bad.
graa, wrong kid, Democrats and Republicans are all socialists nowadays. Anyone that advocates taking money from some people to give to other people, FOR ANY REASON, is a socialist.
By that logic, most people on Earth are socialists, because most have bought into at least one rationalization for "income redistribution." Public schools and social security are probably the most popular rationalizations in America.
By the way, for workers to get shit they didn't earn, coercion is always required
At least he does not storm off like the others do. I just cannot understand that if you do not vote for a representative and he is still elected, wages a tax and you are forced to pay for that tax it is then a voluntary. Jan makes the right point that democracy is 51% against 49%. And the rule of law the Hoeffel refers to is a part of a Republic. It is the rule of the majority in a Democracy. Is Ron Paul the only politician who is theoretically sound?
Thats how I feel. Maybe Northern California is a good location? Jefferson Stateless... But clearly New Hampshire wasn't a good place to try and make a model of libertarianism.
So, in a free society we force others to pay for things we want, or want them to? Gotcha.
Killedkennyagain 5 months ago
Taxes are VOLUNTARY, NOT MANDATORY!
xxxxLetsRidexxxxx 6 months ago
@xxxxLetsRidexxxxx So, when I decide I don't want to pay taxes to the government (for whatever reason), what happens? Do they say, "Sorry you feel that way, have a good day and enjoy your choice." or do they eventually come to my house with guns and take me to prison? Something that is Voluntary is something you do of your own volition of choice. If I was not compelled by threat of violence, I would not pay my taxes, so taxes are mandatory.
Killedkennyagain 5 months ago
@xxxxLetsRidexxxxx So that explains bank account levies, property seizures and auction does it? Why would they jail people for failure to file? If payment is voluntary, why is failure to NOT volunteer to disclose your income a federal felony? Answer the questions, moron.
WurledPeas 5 months ago
How did the tax code reach a staggering size of 70,000 pages? Through the efforts of lobbyists who are drawn to Washington to manipulate the tax laws. Because government has the power to grant special privileges and pass legislation which can favor some and penalize others, it creates a breeding ground for powerful, outside influences. The less power government has, the less likely it is that lobbying tactics will be effective. Eliminate government power and lobbying will become obsolete.
jeffersonianideal 6 months ago
If we are self governing........why do we need to elect politicians to govern us?
mschultz007 8 months ago
This guy is full of Candy-Coated Bullshit.
dchamberss 1 year ago 2
Democracy: two wolves and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
TreachMarkets 1 year ago
What an idiot. While I was legitimately disputing a tax bill with the IRS they levied my bank accounts. I was doing things their way and they in effect bankrupted me until I paid the amount in dispute. Even the guy I was dealing with at the IRS office expressed surprise and said they were being excessive in their reaction.
How is any of that "voluntary"?
WurledPeas 1 year ago
@WurledPeas Check and Mate. But he will never buy it.
Killedkennyagain 5 months ago
what a thoroughly confused individual Hoeffel is
jryan1971 1 year ago
We're not a democracy you dumb SOB we are a Republic...
regorkralcekrub 1 year ago
Under our tax laws, income taxes are "voluntary", but the people have been tricked into believing that income taxes are mandatory for fear of imprisonment and fines. The reason the tax code says "voluntary" is because they knew that constitutionally, it would never hold up in the supreme court. So since its inception, the IRS has used fear to force payment. The politician is argueing that we all pay for the common good even though it goes against what our constitutional republic is all about.
RightWingTV 1 year ago 2
There is no Democracy, the fed controls the government, makes the laws, controls the lawmakers, and this puppet spouts the pablum of the money changers as taught him to keep the truth hidden...we are NOT a free society, that ended long ago.
planethelp 2 years ago 2
Funny how a lot of politicians think taxes are voluntary, seeing as how they're the ones not paying them.
thej762000 2 years ago
Joe is a moronic thieving asshole. The public gave the "right" of the government to steal. ...But it wasn't theirs to give.
I love the propaganda of how he keeps saying "self government". It's not self-government, it's one group of secretive murderers and robbers violating everyone's rights (even their own).
I accept no such notion that the majority rules. There are no laws that protect private property. No such thing in America.
Fuck Joe's dictatorship of the proletariat.
libertarianjury 2 years ago
So if the majority voted to enslave you, then we would say that you voluntarily accepted becoming a slave since you had the chance to vote against it.
janhelfeld 2 years ago 7
Jan if you want to live in a libertarian society move to somalia
rock90123 2 years ago
@rock90123 Somalia is a communist regime idiot.
liOVERLOADil 7 months ago
@liOVERLOADil Somalia was recovering nicely and infrastructure (schools, electric, clean water, etc.) were progressing under the free market conditions for the short period before the UN instituted a government that proceeded to pillage and rape (in every sense of the word) the people. Now Somalia is fucked.
Killedkennyagain 5 months ago
@Killedkennyagain {citation needed}
liOVERLOADil 5 months ago
@liOVERLOADil This is youtube, citations are not allowed, do your own research though and you'll find the information. P.S. Where is your citation for the communist regime comment? Last I checked they were not under a communistic government.
Killedkennyagain 5 months ago
@Killedkennyagain "This is youtube, citations are not allowed" {citation needed}
liOVERLOADil 5 months ago
@janhelfeld "It's a bogus connection" appears to be the supreme reason.
somethingnevertaken 1 year ago
@janhelfeld Exactly my feelings. I never would vote for someone who wants to allow my labors to be taxed. So how is it voluntary. I never had a say in it.
johnknoefler 4 months ago
whats so hard to understand about joe's position jan?
He considers taxes as voluntary because we voluntarily elect government officials who then represent our opinoins when they create tax laws. Once the law is in effect you obviously must pay it.
But if you dont want taxes then try to elect someone who will eliminate them.
If you can't get someone elected that means the majority prefers taxes and your outta luck. Thats how a representative democracy works
orlofskye 2 years ago
I have never voted for anyone orlofskye. Do you think your property rights extend onto mine? If not, do you think you and one other person's does? If not, why do you think a 100 million all of a sudden magically do?
Spideynw 2 years ago
what gives a majority the right to tell a minority what they can and cannot do.
stecksalathe 2 years ago
You can use whatever terms you like?
OK, suppose we take a vote? Everyone here who thinks that there is some special definition of voluntary that applies to taxes but not to everything else, please raise your hands.
And everyone who thinks that when government has you fined or arrested for breaking that law that this somehow is transmuted from force as we know it by the magic of the general will?
Maybe I'm deluding myself but I think I see most people favoring straightforward definitions.
GBanville 2 years ago
What is a society apart from the individuals?
janhelfeld 2 years ago 6
I don't see how he's being inconsistent. What he's saying is that on an individual basis, taxes are required by law to be paid, but the government that demands and receives the tax money is the one that we as a society voluntarily put into power. So taxes are involuntary for us as individuals, but are voluntary for us as society because we voluntarily chose the government that levies the taxes.
kjhuang 2 years ago
This is NOT a democracy. The majority does NOT rule. This idiot needs to go back to school and learn about the government and constitution he was elected to serve, uphold and defend.
y2knoproblem 2 years ago
Comment removed
Aymaco 2 years ago
Uh, Congressman Hoeffel? I don't recall ever voting on how high income taxes should be, or whether there should be an income tax at all.
How about putting those issues to a nationwide vote and see what democracy says we should do about them?
BRYAN351 3 years ago 3
Fuck you Joe Hoeffel.
JakeandElwoodBlues 3 years ago
I see you really hate Joe Hoeffel.
bittergunowner12 2 years ago 2
All Jan's interviewees have such trouble with the plain, honest language that Jan uses. They are masters of Orwellian doublespeak and squirm when blunter terms are used. It pains their brains to think in this way. I think this reflects the society we now live in, where up is down and yes means no.
vivalabag 3 years ago 14
"People are forced to pay taxes... this is what we do in a free society" - joe 'orwell' hoeffel
dwayne0t 3 years ago
He says that you've got a choice of who you elect. True. He says you've got a choice as to whether or not you "participate" in a democracy. False. When a young kid gets his first paycheck 1/3 of the money has already been confiscated, where's the choice?
scdecade 3 years ago 3
This is just another typical politician thief. He has no problem with stealing your money. He is a criminal statist indulging in constant irrational blabforth.
tesla921 3 years ago 3
Is that the best they can do to justify their violence? Pathetic.
CorrosionX3 3 years ago 2
WE ARE A CONSTITUTIONAL REPUBLIC, CONGRESSMAN!
not a democracy.
ball4thegame 3 years ago 11
There are slight differences. A Republic is just a watered down democracy.
overmind25 3 years ago
Ok, if taxes are voluntary I'd like to not pay mine.
JesseKantstopolis 3 years ago 5
Get used to iron bars, then, in order to not be unpleasantly surprised.
WOLF333999 3 years ago
I pay my taxes. I won't live in a cage and be fed meat with sodium nitrate and made to drink fluoridated water all day.
JesseKantstopolis 3 years ago
the particular logical fallacy Mr. Hoefful is making (or at least one of them) is called "special pleading. He is arguing that force isn't force if the government does it and stealing isn't stealing if it is done by the majority. Also he is arguing that government is "self government" even for the minority, even when a minority is oppressed by the majority. This argument is a mockery of language and does violence to logic and reason.
billyjoeallen 3 years ago 6
why are they so afraid to say that taxes aren't voluntary? all democrats are socialists, and if they actually stand for what they believe, they shouldn't be hesitant to say it.
shroomingnewman 3 years ago
democrats aren't socialists, they're just fucktards like the republicans.
graaaaaagh 3 years ago 4
Most democrats and some republicans (the so-called neo-conservatives) are socialists. They just don't label themselves that way because it sounds bad.
buddjas1 3 years ago 2
Depends how you define socialist. If you mean someone who wants extremely big government, then yes, but I think a better term might be fascist.
If you mean someone who desires workers' ownership of the means of production and equality (without coercion), then no.
graaaaaagh 3 years ago
graa, wrong kid, Democrats and Republicans are all socialists nowadays. Anyone that advocates taking money from some people to give to other people, FOR ANY REASON, is a socialist.
By that logic, most people on Earth are socialists, because most have bought into at least one rationalization for "income redistribution." Public schools and social security are probably the most popular rationalizations in America.
By the way, for workers to get shit they didn't earn, coercion is always required
BRYAN351 3 years ago 3
At least he does not storm off like the others do. I just cannot understand that if you do not vote for a representative and he is still elected, wages a tax and you are forced to pay for that tax it is then a voluntary. Jan makes the right point that democracy is 51% against 49%. And the rule of law the Hoeffel refers to is a part of a Republic. It is the rule of the majority in a Democracy. Is Ron Paul the only politician who is theoretically sound?
SSSLLLAAYYEEERRRR 3 years ago 4
The only option left for those of us to believe in liberty and freedom is to form a new country.
buddjas1 3 years ago 2
Thats how I feel. Maybe Northern California is a good location? Jefferson Stateless... But clearly New Hampshire wasn't a good place to try and make a model of libertarianism.
JesseKantstopolis 3 years ago
So my taxes give you health care but your taxes wont give me health care....
JimTL1000R 3 years ago 2
See the house of cards fall whenever Jan interviews. These people are purely delusional and immoral.
irdial 3 years ago 3
Immoral indeed. They want to pretend like the gun pointed at us lowly citizens doesn't exist, but of course it does.
JesseKantstopolis 3 years ago