The Zionists are Terrorists,Mossad,Occupied Palistinian lobby(Wont say the illegal name that the zionist called it)which has control of the Media,Government,CIA,MI5-6,Coorpratocrisy,Banks etc.They are worse than the Nazi's and also (i am not anti-semetic jews refuse national service and are tortured)Germans who didnt follow the Nazi,Romany Gypsies who lost just as many lives,and anyone who was in the way of all colours and creeds were in these pits but all by the Zionist "media" ,Jews.
you gentiles are Pathetic Always take some jew and make him god or Messiah just like the jesus and kerl marx and know this noam chomsky did you ever wondering why is this all your biggst gods and messiah and your intellectuals from right and left are jewish and you wonder how we the jews call are self the chosen people dont diss this
comment in 100 yreas from know your kids will things that holly histroy just like your Fathers Though't even the arebs belive in a jewish idea of god
Sderot is built on the lands of Najd, a Palestinian village ethnically cleansed by Jewish militia in 1948. Its residents probably fled into the Gaza strip. Most of Gaza’s population is descended from such refugees.
At least 450 children are among the 1,330 Palestinians who have died since Israel began to bomb the Gaza enclave on December 27.
Al Jazeera has obtained the names of 210 of the young victims, 44 of which were under five years old.
Oh wow what a typical wrong-headed right-winger. Wake up to reality and to the cruelties & crimes that Israel & the U.S. perpetuate. Can you even listen to the cogent arguments & mountains of evidence to this effect that Chomsky and others put forth? You can't, because you are blinded by your irrational beliefs, strong nationalistic views, and racist tendencies. Begone!
@xMaXiMuSx I beg to differ. This is all about left versus right. It is the right that stand to defend Israel's existence, it is the left that wants it to fade away. It is the left that always takes sides against U.S policy, not the right. The left defends terrorists, the right wants to kill them. This is all about political views and the left, as usual, is in the wrong position.
well if they want to kill terorists than they should go after Israel.. you know the country that's killed more US people than Hamas and Hezbollah and so on..
@Maxwedge12000 this has nothing to do with left vs right but right vs wrong.
Let me ask you this, North korea invaded seoul tomorrow, killed 2000 south koreans, used chemical weapons on them, then blockaded the country and sunk american aid ships going to Korea would you consider them terrorists?
If your answer is yes, why is it that Israel can do the exact thing and you think nothing of it.
@3star2nr terrible analogy. Palestine has never been a sovereign nation, unlike Korea. Look up "the arab conquests" and you will see they took Iraq, Syria, northern Africa, Lebanon, Jordan and Egypt. When all the Arabs vacate the lands they took from others, then and only then, can they demand the Jews leave. But we both know that will never happen. The Arabs are huge hypocrites. The Israelis and Arabs are forever bound to each other. They can live, or die, together.
@Maxwedge12000 there may not have been a country called "Palestine" but that doesn't give the Jews the right to come in and exile people. Whether or not there was a country, there were people living there for years before the jews settled. Infact muslims and jews were living in the area in peace, it wasnt until they decided to have a jewish homeland, via the doctrine of Zionism that tensions really flared up. Yes they had small arguments before but nothing this major
@Maxwedge12000 taking lands by military force is wrong, The US did the same to the indians. That said Israel already exists so we have to move forward. The great evil that israel is doing is their continued expansion. At the end of the day thats what the war is about. Israel wants to control everything and exterminate the last of the palestinians. They want to kill every last one of them, but since the international community wont allow that they have resorted to killing them by other means
@3star2nr Israel gave the palestinians a chance to have their own nation. The pals blew it, as they always do.
Israel has drawn the correct conclusion, there will never be peace with the pals no matter what. The pals have publicly stated they will reject all peace initiatives and only want Israel's destruction. Isreal wants them gone now and is working to that end. Every nation on earth works in its own self interest. Israel is no exception.
@Maxwedge12000 Also left wing people are avid supporters of Israel. Clinton, and Obama who you would never consider Right wingers, both VETOED UN resolutions condemning israel for their crimes against humanity.
There are SEVERAL democrats, liberals progressives who close there eyes and blindly support israel.
So this ISNT about left vs right. AIPAC bribes and owns both sides open your eyes
Noam Chomsky is making a lot of money with his misleading ( and actually lying propaganda) He is a real old bastard of son of a bitch who betrays his Jewish people, yes, he can post criticism , but true, fair and honest, but he is not doing it.
A man who denies fact that has happened in history and are in history books and encyclopedias, and re-writing them is an Idiot, every intelligent person knows that it is all crap!!!
Noam Chomsky is a disgrace to his Jewish people. It is very easy to live in the U.S and pass judgment on Israel, let him move there and than he will have the right to talk.
So someone can't criticize a nation unless they go live there? That makes a whole lot of sense. Also, I wouldn't call condemning apartheid and the horrid human rights violations that Israel commits an act of betrayal.
Israel is the traitor. They betray common decency towards fellow human beings every minute of every day.
A patriot? what a joke. He denounce, and is twisting the facts..a Holocaust
denier. He said that the killing of thousands in Serbia has never happen. He re-writes history. Read about him in Wikipedia and how many lyes he is spreading , and is capitalizing on it. He is a real capitalist, living in a big home, and makes a lot of money by advertising his own fictions, and makes a name for himself as humane loving of the people of the world. Bull.....
@011jaffa wikipedia are you fucking kididng me? That ois one of the worst possible sources for info lol..
Apparently you should READ Chomsky's work instead of believing whta some idiot wrote about him.
For Serbia he says : The Turkish gvt (which the US supported and armed at roughly the same time) KILLED WAY MORE THAN THE SERBS DID, and it was his OWN people. A fact that never appeared anywhere, weird eh? Denounced other's crimes but silence on ours. thats what he syas
@011jaffa Tell me mister which Chomsky books have you actually read entirely?
Or do you always judge people who have written about these topics for over 50 years based on bullshit you read on wikipedia? One of the worst sources available, lol.
oh sorry we cant critise israel otherwide it will be called anti semite or you criticise usa you are called a terrorists. #1 and #2 terrorists nations are usa and israel. fuck them both 1!!!!!!!
@Maxwedge12000 left? lmao dude listen to yourself keep supporting crimes against humanity you damn brainless fool. Do you know anything whatsoever about what is going on in that region or about international law? numbnuts
@xdeliriumx1 what the fuck are you yapping about? oif course US and Israeli crimes are happening. stop flapping your face for a sec and READ what I write, then you would see thats exactly what I said.
You mean the same islam that once had an empire that was defeated and went into a 1,000 year decline and was eventually chopped up into arbitrary nations by the european powers? You mean that islam? :) Sounds like a big loser to me.
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Is Cho's language here factual or emotional? Is his analysis dispassionately deconstructive and comparative-relativist?
How typical of a leftist, name calling instead of a reasoned rebuttal. But that's only understandable. You have your cherished worldview to protect. It is very brittle, but you just can't acknowledge that. You feel it is threatened, so you compensate with rage. Or are you high on your supposed moral and/or intellectual superiority?
2 State Solution ???!!! Sorry for my cynicism but just take a look at the facts on the ground. - Over 400,000 illegal settlers on Palestinian territory - Over 250 illegal settlements (colonial cities for Jews Only on Palestinian land. - West Bank carved up by Jewish Only roads and highways. - Over 700 checkpoints (cant move around) - Curfews -Blocked borders. -No access to Black Sea (even though it is far from Israel and ON Palestinian territory. - Jerusalem taken by Israel. etc...
There was no force. If anything there was violent resistance from the getgo when plans for Jewish state was declared.
There was also no deportation. Refugee problem was created precisely due to the hostilities from the Arab side. It was so in 1948 war and 1967 war. Read a history book.
The resistance was initiated when hundreds of thousands of Jews were being poured into the region. Of course there would be resistance, another people were taking over what used to be the Palestinian land, homes, villages, mosques and churches.
The various massacres that were committed by Zionist militias terrorized the Palestinian populace into fleeing in mass numbers. You need more than a history book. You need some common sense.
GET FACTS! Arguing that Zionists displaced Palestinian population through immigration is a lie and propaganda. Displacement of Arabs was because of THEIR wars. There's no excuse for YOU not knowing FACTS of Jewish massacres in Kfar Etzion, Hadassah Hospital, Safad, Hebron & many others. Only blemish on Jewish movement history is Dier Yassin, which was not perpetrated by Zionists and condemned by Ben-Gurion & Haganah
So which massacres exactly you're referring to? GIVE FACTS!!!
Maybe you haven't been reading. I've clearly made reference to 1948 war of Independence, 1967 6-day war, 1st and 2nd intifada as well as known massacres of Jews by Arab Palestinians in towns such as Hebron.
I have yet to see you basing your accusations on an actual historic fact. You actually claimed that settlements gave rise to the conflict, when first Arab-Israeli conflict dates to partition plans in 1917. So, your turn now. I'm patiently waiting still for your to produce facts.
Whysandniggerwhy: Israel gets about $10 million a day according to former president Jimmy Carter. U know the leader who wrote Peace or Apartheid and We Can Have Peace in the Holy Land. Israel and America R pretty much alone in this symbiotic moronicy, the rest of the world is watching Israel starve out the Palestimnians and R against your actions and Jimmy Carter says that all that Hamas is asking for right now is to open up supply routs so they don't starve.
If Gaza had the same elaborate and sophisticated democracy Israel has, it wouldn't allow an islamist authocratic group such as Hamas to become a candidate for rulership in the first place. Just imagine what would happen to scholars in Gaza who would critisize Hamas' official policies, the same way Irit Zertal and Eldar Akiva write about Israel's policies? If Israel's neighbors had the same liberal ways as Israel, there would be peace already long time ago. Like US and Canada.
Thank you Mr Chomsky for quoting Irit Zertal and Akiva Eldar. I can only marvel how those scholars and others, can write so fearlessly comments in strong contrast with Israel leadership's own explanations. This shows what a true democracy is. You may say that this doesn't change the facts. I say it does! If Gaza had the same elaborate and sophisticated democracy as Israel, it wouldn't allow an islamist authocratic group such as Hamas to become a candidate for rulership in the first place.
what a wonderful point about obamas statement about his daughters...
if bombs were falling on his childrens heads he would do EVERYTHING he could to stop it....
i cant say obamas position is too suprising. however, his twisting of logic and inability to see that the palestinians are doing exactly what he deemed to be acceptable. that is, palestinians are doing everything and what little they can to defend against bombs being dropped on their childrens heads.
It is NOT anti semetic to disagree with the brutal Likhud Party! Period! Ask USS LIBRTY survivors and the cowardice exhibitted by our own goverment ...in a war crime cover-up.
Likud made peace with Egypt giving back everythoing they wanted. There is more DISGREEMENT IN IS THAN YOU WOULD ALLOW IN YOUR ARGUMENTS. U REALLY KNOW NOTHING ABOUT WAR CRIMES. Read Judge A. Jay Cristol: The Liberty Incident - there are disputes about this - wake up!
Another Zionist commenting (sorry criticizing) on the crimes of Zionist colonialism which has been occupying Palestine for the last 60 years and decemating the indigenous people. Chomsky fits perfectly to the definition of his oft repeated word - hypocrite.
For those offended by this - please refer to his comments on Zionism & Jewish homeland in his interview with The Book TV. Also, if you can read and analyse on your own, check out his Zionist past in the official biography by Robert Barsky.
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I became a Zionist because of Dr. Chomsky president of Gratz College Philadelphia. Ever since I was a rabbi In Boston, I was subjected to the anti-Israel remarks of Dr. Chomsky's son NOAM- "pleasant." He never says anything positive about the Jewish people and Israel. It is really an embarrassment. Mr Noam stop hiding behind his tenured professorship and debate those with honest facts. There is a proverb: "those who will destroy you, will come from you." The Chomsky legacy is purloined.
What ever... I never believed in noam chomsky until recent acts in gaza. then i listen again to all his lecture again and he was right. not all jews are zionist. but all zionist aren't jews
What has Noam ever said that Israel deserves to be recognized and live in peace- War Crimes committed have been committed by Hamas in killing their own, planting bombs in hospitals, and in homes with Gazans scared to death of Hamas, and firing rockets randomly into civilian populations for 8 years, and Israel making sure that it was not purposely intending to harm civilians. I wish bombs were dropping on MIT from Harvard. How long do you think it will take for them to defend themselves.
Defending yourself from enemy attacks is normal. But bombing a city, killing thousands is beyond defense. I don't like to defending Hamas but the disproportion of the response to Hamas rockets is clearly visible. And your comment of bombing MIT just because of dissenting voice from Noam Chomsky proves the Zionist hatred of criticism.
Thank goodness a man of Chomsky's stature and background has taken up the mantle of dissent on this issue. He cannot be called "anti-jew" or "anti-israel" and he is well placed to speak truth to power.
He is brave and intelligent (rare combination) and a National Treasure.
Chomsky is a scientist. His contributions are priceless. However, I am alarmed by his political interpretation of the recent events of Hamas vs Israel conflict (note it's NOT Gaza vs Israel). Further, I find it dangerous that his established status as one of the great scientific minds fuels fanatic and extreme view points to the general masses that pay attention to this highly complex situation. That does nothing more than inspire prejudice and animosity against the state of Israel.
so on which view of his do you exactly disagree? please be more specific so the rest of us who interpret his contribution as a step towards peace can be alarmed as well
In this excerpt, 3:24-4:07 would be most evident. Anyone who's competing for the voice in the political arena should be discredited with that statement alone. In case you're not aware, Hamas is not recognized and is currently enlisted as a terrorist organization, with exception of a few nations (e.g. Turkey). Secondly, as this issue in whole is criticized major factor of occupation resulting from a six day war is omitted and facts warped out of proportion. Israel has a right to defense.
rptatbud, there is not doubt that the most terrorized (literally) part of this conflict is palaistinian public.I dont see chomsky not condemning hamas' action (start 4/11 part).The problem is that he dares to condemn the Israeli actions too. What's your opinion? Do Palaist have right to Def? Their rockets have zero guiadance. Even if they want to hit Milit targets they cant.Give them F-16 and then we will judge if their intentions is to hit civilians (as IDF has doing) or military installations.
Feta3000, you can't be serious. Arm Hamas? What's next? Will you advocate for a three state solution of Hamas, Fatah and Israel? Hamas rockets have no guidance, true. Just not too long ago their rocket range did not exceed 30km. Now it's surpassing 60km range. It is cuvilians in towns like Ashkalon and Ashdod that are suffering.Your comment on what Chomsky "dares" to do is interesting. I have yet to see evidence of this man putting aside inflated "criticism" and offer a viable solution.
Feta3000, just in case you missed that in your no doubt invaluable wikipedia readings and further in response to your comment of "Give them F-16 and then we will judge if their intentions is to hit civilians (as IDF has doing) or military installations. " I thought you might be interested in these translations from Palestenian Government chapter:
Hamas's Covenant 1/5: "Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it."
rptatbud, one my response to ur previous comment did not appear. hamas is already condemned for their actions. i dont understand why don't you condemn the use of f-16 from the other side though, they dont really drop flowers. I do stand for what chomsky is saying that both parties should be accounted for their actions.
Feta3000. Well, at least it's a good start when you're ready to admit: "I do stand for what chomsky is saying that both parties should be accounted for their actions. " But is that the message in the lecture? Yet again let me make the point that Israel has a right and an obligation to protect its citizens. The active fraction in Gaza responsible for Jihadist mentality and terrorist actions IS the primary cause of civilian deaths and destruction. This is not a war, but defense against terror
isn't that the message rptatbud? he states at least twice that hamas should be condemned (7/11 8'.30 onwards) but he also criticizes the response from isr. And his arguments in my humble opinion are not irrational. I cannot immediately see why a seemingly unbiased (?), internationally acclaimed intellectual would manipulate facts. If we assume he isn't, then ur criticism is then directed to the way he is researching the issue. I am not the one who will criticize his ability to perform research.
Feta3000, when you say "I am not the one who will criticize his ability to perform research", in that sense neither am I. I have an M.S. & believe me spent many nights studying Chomsky's work. The man is a genius when it comes to linguistics & CS. That's point was in my original statement. In politics however I wish before his "fans" took on his OPINIONS founded on personal interpretation of facts retained at least a fraction of an open mind. But he's not the first scientist turned politician
to conclude rptatbud :), I am not an expert of the subject and I can't check all the facts so I must choose my sources.You can't re-invent the wheel every time. The position of Isr is everywhere in the media and its expressed by politicians (a "derogatory" term you ve mentioned). I admit i am inclined towards Chomsky's views a. for the same reasons he describes in 9/11,4'20'' b. given his impartiality, his ability to logically deduct conclusions is unparalleled. I hope politicians were like him.
To regard Chomsky as a "man of vision" on the subject is a mistake in my opinion. He sets forth no solution except for attack on Israel's measures against terrorism and ensuring the prevailing of a Nation. Rehashing of the conditions does nothing more in my opinion that incite unfounded sympathy and mask the true gravity of the situation. Merely basing your own convictions on the subject matter simply because someone is an authority figure in unrelated scientific field is a dangerous game.
A. at the end of his answer starting at 7/11 8'.30 he sets forth his view to solution. B. i totally disagree with you. I sincerely believe that linguistics is totally related field as it studies the tool we use to communicate and argue. Therefore I assume it allows you to better your argumentation and logical inferences. It is exactly like maths - these fields change the way you think and approach subjects, dont consider them as absolute knowledge.
Your arguments are good. If for the mere fact that there are many people who share your point of view. From that perspective, a dialog is very important.
Disagreement is good as it creates dialog. In your referenced "solution" there is no mention of current complications such as Hamas and Fatah schism (as well as multitude of other crucial factors). Things are not as clear cut as some would believe UN resolution is/ was. In addition, Chomsky himself states on 7/11@ 8:35 "Make of that what you want" after merely reciting partial facts. I think you have to keep in mind it's a lecture, not a lesson in history OR a prospect for future solutions.
i agree, chomskys expertise in linguistics makes him perfectly suited to cut through propaganda...
and also for making judgements of nations based on the standards they set themselves. for example if we look at the definition of terrorism given by the US military, we see that the US gov. is guilty of terrorism by its own defintion.
on the contrary...he is not only illustrating israel crimes but he is simultaneously laying out a solution. one of his solutions is quite simple, END those crimes.
Its quite simple...if israel does not want terrorism to be done to them, they should stop participating in and conducting terrorist acts.
mcalien, well of course! According to Chomsky America had 9/11 coming too! You watch few videos where speaker clearly has anti-Israeli agenda, hardly touches on the subject of what incites violence in a first place-the only "condemnation" of Hamas is in part 7/11@9:10 where he calls them politically stupid & then negating that statement by comparing Israel to Nazi Germany. What do you think will happen if Israel will give up defenses? West Bank goes to Jordan, Gaza to Egypt and there is peace?
that is not chomskys view on 911...he dosent believe anyone had anything coming...rather he wasnt suprised that a radical muslim group conducted terrorist acts because after all, we in the US have supported terrorism in the mid east...israeli terror, and the proping up of dictatorships which conduct terror on their own people.
the israeli occupation is illegal...the first step is ending the intial illegallity. palestine should have their own state...gaza and the west bank on the 1967 borders
mcalien? Really? watch?v=10rTPSSmOFw Chomsky's views on America as a "Nazi" terrorist state is no secret, and do bear a great deal of parallel on his recycled view on Israel. Secondly 1967 borders is a historical issue worth researching. Understanding events to this "perception" that is some 40 years old on the plain of historical tapestry is a first step to realizing what this is all about.
well what is no secret is that after WW2 the US helped senior Nazi officers escape prosecution in return for teaching us some of their nazi tactics....which we still use to this day...and which israel uses right now...namely collective punishment.
the world is in agreement....the US, Israel and a few other countries (Australia, Micronesia) annually block the two state solution UN vote. The world court has ruled that the 1967 borders are israels legal borders...israel should respect the law.
you ask what will happen if israel ends its occupation...will that end hostilities?
i understand ur concern...however, NOT ending israeli crimes because the result may be crimes committed against israel is not a valid argument.
if israel ends its occupation and is then attacked then they will be legitimately, justly and actually defending themselves rather than simply continuing their aggression.
but given that occupation is aggression...ending occupation, should end the resistance.
in layman's terms, it is not a concern, but issue of State of Israel survival. Chomsky advocates it is a simple issue, I plead with you, it is not. Both sides are involved in this conflict, there's no doubt. And I assure you, no Israeli is craving innocent blood. Some are acts of defense others of preemptive decisions, while others are of desperation. But the reality is Israel has a right to exist, and this is the right that is defended.
not only does israel have the right to exist...but i DOES exist...
when we say israel has the right to exist its almost as if we are forgetting that it is Israel that does exist...while the palestinians are the ones under occupation, struggling for a state
israel does exist and they do have the right to defend themselves..
but they do not have the right to occupy others...or claim that their only form of defense is to be militaristic...they can in fact defend israel by ending occupation
mcalien, you're advocating for legalizing a state whose covenant is is to destroy that state of Israel. I don't mean to put words in your mouth, but by ceasing all lines of defenses without holding terrorist states accountable you're in essence contributing for destruction of the country. The only way Israel has been able to maintain its presence is by fortifying. Ending "occupation" is going to accomplish a short term Arabic League goal. Have you considered the consequences?
i believe israel is sowing the seeds of its own destruction with acts of violence such as this recent aggression in gaza.
again you refer to israeli occupation as defenses...occupation is aggression and israel should consider abiding by the law, ending occupation, and respecting international law and concensus.
what has israel been able to maintain? a state barely holding on to its morality. and what are the consequences of palestinian kids dying?
if i come off as one-sided it is because i am very sad and angry that my tax dollars are going to support this aggression...and clearly the debate in the US is one sided
but by illustrating israeli actions i in no way am trying to diminish the nature of the crimes committed against israel...namely the firing of rockets by hamas and other militant groups. those are real crimes as well and should not be overlooked
i also urge the palestinians to take a peaceful approach and renounce violence
I don't think it's an issue of being one-sided, but it is more-less an issue of taking sides. This recent conflict has turned world's attention to this very difficult political, economic and social situation. To contradict Chomsky yet again, there are no short and simple answers. It is our responsibility as citizens of our country and members of the global community to AT LEAST educate ourselves. Not just simply rule "rights&wrongs" based on someone else's...well.. opinion.
that israel is barely holding onto its morality...i drew that conclusion because while israel may have a moral end to this conflict in mind, the means they are using to achieve this end are discrediting the morality of the objective.
if preserving the state of israel is the highest moral imperative for the israelis, they are seemingly becoming immoral in pursuit of that imperative.
That's one point of view, and taking into consideration your argument in whole it could be a logical conclusion.
However, keep in mind, that again, in layman's terms, even having two state solution decades back under original conditions would merely result in one Palestenian "state", as it was never a hidden agenda to destroy Israel.
As an aside fact, you may also want to ask yourself a question why during conflict Egypt fortified siding Gaza border with orders to shoot any crossers.
i absolutely think it was deplorable for egypt to keep their borders closed and not let civilians flee the bombing...
however, its no secret why. as im sure you know...hamas is the ally of the muslim brotherhood, which is the opposition group to the government in egypt.
rptatbud,nobody is dismissing crimes against Isr. H has already been characterized as a terrorist org, as u so often use it as an axiom to the defence of ur arguments.
A. If H is a terrorist organization (u prefer PDF?) or B. if it is the "only" one terrorizing the area are different issues. And up to now the decision on both these issues are 100% pro-israeli. Given also the death toll, the undeniable collective punishment and occupation, it is difficult for ISR to persuade that it is the victim
I don't understand, you agree to characterization of opposing fractions as terrorist, yet you deny the right of Israel to arm against its aggressors. What solution again do you propose? Deliberate sacrifice of the Nation and human lives?
rptatbud: I haven't been persuaded who is the aggressor here (just because Bush and his protectorate said so - why should i not believe human right watch, amnesty international which are by definition humanitarian orgs serving higher morals or a professors from MIT & Princeton). Both sides claim that respond to others actions. Assuming this, then the military action from both sides has to adhere the rules of conduct of war. **And Israel's conduct of war violate these rules on a massive scale**
Allright, so yet again, let me ask you a question. If militant terrorist groups are not challenged with their destruction, what other solution is viable in your opinion?
guys, what the hell? did the posts got erased? anyway.. rptatbud this recursive loop of opinions is never ending. The only way to end it is to identify the fundamental differences. What I believe is: if H is terrorists because of their actions, Isr actions are even worse so Isr is terrorizing. Should Isr then as well be challenged with destruction? It is already by Hamas who consider Isr as a terrorist. You opinion hardly differs from Hamas'
I am not an expert to propose a sol. I express my view which is formed by my only feedback, what I see on TV, read on the papers (indymedia, democracy now, european papers, cnn, human rights watch,red cross, amnesty international, mit professors). Can you suggest alternative impartial sources of info for an eu citizen who cant read Hebrew? What I see and read is kids with no legs, bulldozed houses and american activists, shot british, a us graduate with two brothers shot crying in democracy now
Yet it doesn't stop you from advocating for the course of action. Perhaps first the effort should be spend on trying to identify solution routes and then argue for political recourse. What you are suggesting will not bring halt to this situation by any means.
as my opinion is already formed and i admit difficult to reverse, the only value in it is not the actual context (which is a product of the limited conclusions i can deduce given my limited initial parameters/knowledge).The actual value of it is to ask urself why citizens who put an effort to find impartial/unbiased sources reach the same conclusions...do you think i am a victim of propaganda ? organized by whom? what is chomsky/hrw/amnesty is gaining from this? did Bush gain anything from Isr?
"H is terrorists because of their actions, Isr actions are even worse so Isr is terrorizing. "
In all seriousness, if you can come up with arrangement where Hamas doesn't store weapons and fire rockets from mosques, schools and civilian buildings, there would be for humanists much less to feel bad about. The fundamental difference is that one side is trying to destroy a nation while another one is acting in ensuring it's existence. No strike by Israel is unprovoked.
furthermore...ur choice of words is really astonishing...
u refer to the israeli occupation of gaza and the west bank as "israeli defenses." ridiculous.
also...i am am not anti-semitic and i understand that the comparison of israel to nazi germany is unsettling...
however...facts are facts. if israel or any other state uses the same tactics that the nazis used or created, then thats their problem....not the problem of the person who is making the obvious comparison of those tactics.
Term anti-Semitic need not apply here because Palestinians are Semites too. Secondly, how is Israeli tactic comparable to what Nazi's used or created? Do you see them pleading for world and ethnic domination? No, it's about a tiny strip of land they can call home.
but look at the history of israel...since their inception they have been expanding their territory...
furthermore, many people have used the word apartied to describe the situation there. palestinians not allowed to use the same utilities that settlers on their own land are using.
no i dont think israel are nazis....
but one specific tactic that the nazis used that israel is using is collective punishment by way of the blockade...
Blockade is a very complicated issue within itself. In short, it did stop suicide bombings didn't it? It may not be a popular view, but evolution of Israel and industrialization of the region has been a result of State's policies. By cutting off hostile territories many people did loose their jobs and income. Is it is long term solution? No, absolutely not. But how do you live with openly militant Islamic extremists such as Hamas who's only mission is eradication of your country?
a lot of exchanges...ill try to respond to ur points...however...ur apologetics for israels crimes are getting kinda ridiculous
u make a good point...how do you live with extremists as ur neighbors...and no doubt hamas is extreme to say the least.
i think hamas' charter still calls for the erradication of israel. however, what is israel calling for and doing? Israel is calling for and using terrorism to carry out the destruction of the elected hamas party
I agree. The subject matter at hand is beyond what this forum can offer. The primary viewpoint that is challenged by me is definition of crime in your argument. If true by your definition, the only way to win in the court of "public" opinion here is for Israel to lay down its defenses and showcase to the world becoming a victim so that it's fight would be just. If so then this "victory" will not realize.
My only suggestion is faucet your opinions from multiple sources.
"you're wrong. Hamas supports a two-state solution."
Err... Have you googled Hamas charter recently? Keep in mind, that even if more liberal members of the party may have called for tahdia or hudna, by any means that doesn't mean "two state solution". Do you even know what having a State under that proposed definition is? Secondly, how do you suppose a single state of Palestine will work with their opposing Fatah whom Hamas have been trying to eradicate as well in WB?
Hamas have said they will accept and recognise israel if israel recognises it has obligations to palestinian refugees. That doesnt make them perfect, but it is a clear acceptance of some form of two state solution. I know about the hamas charter but the US constitution says that black people should be counted as 3/5s human. Times change.
"Hamas have said they will accept and recognise israel if israel recognises it has obligations to palestinian refugees. "
Perhaps it's Hamas that should first recognize it's obligations to Palestinian refugees. For starters, they can begin by returning two UN convoys of food and supplies sent to help conflict battered human shield Gazans that Hamas has stolen.
Times change? Apparently not for terrorist groups that teach preschoolers jihad and martyrdom. /watch?v=tNtgiRR0iDM
-Hamas (the elected government) has "stolen" two UN convoys of food and supplies for gazans. The UN referred to this incident (i just googled it), as hamas "interfering in distribution". Hamas claimed the trucks went missing on the Israeli side.
-There's only a humanitarian crisis due to the illegal blockade that Israel PROMISED to lift when the original (summer) ceasefire began. (they didn't even move to.
-Human shields? I contend they are targeted. See first bit of part one of above vid.
-Food is seized by ministry of social affairs? Perhaps to make into bombs? or to feed people? I can't tell. neither can you.
-You could only allow goods through, or you could open the egypt/gaza border. Israel agreed to open the border for a ceasefire. the firing stopped, the border stayed closed. (also hamas offered to return to the 2005 agreement before the recent conflict and was ignored.
-Israel targets civilians. Why else begin the attack at a time when civilian deaths will be high?
-Ministry of social affairs took the blankets and food? Perhaps you should read statements made by Ziyad al-Zaza.
-open Egyptian/Gaza board? Sure, sounds like a great solution. You'd have to overthrow current Egyptian government first, and replace them with MB fanatic movement, but hey!
- Israel does not target civilians. Before every strike, Israel dropped thousands of pamphlets announcing the target and made direct calls to residents to evacuate.
The primary objective was to destroy combatant sites with weapons, network of tunnels used for weaponry smuggling (revived to life now), & prevent further rocket/militant attacks on Israeli citizens. Disproportionate? Yes. Thankfully so due to measures taken by the Israeli government to ensure that Hamas doesn't get their hands on more destructive weaponry, which they have been trying
Thanks right back for the discussion. If you happen to find the name of that book, drop me a line.
rptatbud, Israels ongoing attacks strangulation, starvation cutting off of resources etc has provoked a few attacks. U get cause and affect all wrong!
During the operation there was temp blockage in response to escalating rocket assaults from Hamas. BUT, it is Israel that coordinates humanitarian assistance to Gaza. Did you know that it's primary Israel that sends truckloads of food, medicine & supplies there?
Meanwhile UN still awaits return of the food & supply aid hijacked by Hamas. UNRWA claims some were ceased at gun point from refugee camps. Hamas was even selling it to needy. And that's with the world watching. Where's the excuse?
That's not what Eva Stern, Emira Hass, Robert Fisk, Noam Chomsky, Norman Finkelsytein says! Given the credibility of the people I mentioned I will not agree w/ you.
Names can be used to discredit the point of view based on some "history". Chomsky, alas! is no exception, some some may argue he could be tied in a lead with Finkelstein. By the same token there are numerous supporters for Israel's cause. We can certainly play the name dropping game. But journalists and reporters?
The bottom line is that you have to look passed someone else's point of view and make up your mind for yourself. This is about find ways to co-exist and survive.
Most people throughout the world see Chomsky and others point(s) of view as Not controversial. The Zionist regime is equal 2 the Neocons here in the US of Amnesia!.
That's quite a feat to talk on behalf of what most people in the world think. I argue, that most probably do not know who Chomsky is, and part of those that do approach his political views with caution (I list myself amongst the latter).
Nonetheless, judging from the "pool" of the sources you've pointed out earlier, it's not surprising that you have these convictions.
rptatbud--A well rounded one at that. Chomsky is amongst the most quoted intellectuals in the world. I don't agree w/ everything he says but he certainly is at the top of my list of great humans.
in my prior posts here I extend a great deal of admiration to Chomsky as a scientist. I'm glad to see (from your comment) that not all of his political ideas are blindly assimilated.
This lecture, however, is hardly an introduction to the essence of the conflict. Very little factual bases for opinionated arguments, and plagued with omissions as well as one-sideness. There is no black&white in this conflict. Being a 'great human' does not transcend to being "right" by default.
Chomsky has spent 30 years studying the conflict and causes.
As far as Israel's "humanitarian assistance," if they would open the borders and allow the free flow of food, then they would not have to, in their "benevolence," provide "humanitarian aid."
When it comes to ANY nation's domestic/foreign policy benevolence is certainly not the primary pillar of the actions, political 'science' or law.
Suppose the borders are opened, as you had suggested (I assume you meant only on Israeli side). How do you propose that will resolve current militant and Jihadist tensions? What in your opinions consequences will be in terms of political structure in the Middle East, democracy process and global economy?
"Democracy process"?! You have some guts to even mention that! Hamas was democratically elected, but you rejected the Palestinian democracy, because aparantly, they "picked the wrong side"! And please do not bring up that Hamas wants to destroy Israel. They declared last year that they are willing to declare the Palestinian state on the 1967 borders.
And to answer your question: if the borders were opened, there would (at least) be a cease-fire!
1. Hamas is internationally condemned as a terrorist organization.
2. On 4/21/08 Khaled Mashaal said "We have offered a truce if Israel withdraws to the 1967 borders, a truce of 10 years as a proof of recognition" and Ismail Haniyeh A Palestinian state will not be created at this time except in the territories of 1967". There was and still is NO explicit recognition of Israel (refer to Hamas charter PLS!). Hamas & PLO are at war. Their negotiations with Abbas failed or were boycotted.
1. Hamas is "condemned as a terrorist organization" mainly because it said it wouldnt recognize Israel's right to exist, which it doesnt anymore.
2. As you said "a truce of 10 years as a proof of recognition". Again, "proof of recognition". What more do you want them to do?! Just surrender and accept the occupation and de-facto conditions?! I just dont understand why you would expect them to believe anything you say if the occupation is on-going and expanding!
ghorab I'll respond to your arguments although many points were addressed in my prior comments here
1&2 Hamas are terrorists. Born as a branch of Muslim Brotherhood it was condemned by EU,USA & others for its militant tactics & warfare in the Middle East. Hamas has never explicitly or POLITICALLY recognized a right of Israel to exist. It's reflected in their charter, speeches &negotiations. Aside from implicit verbal statements, show me ONE document where Hamas recognized Israel's right to exist
3. Fatah has been practicing peaceful negotiations for some time now, they recognize Israel and they want to establish the Palestinian state on the 1967 borders. Yet, Israel is not going for peace with Fatah, but are expanding the settlements in the West Bank in violation of UN resolutions and international laws. So please, stop ranting about how "Israel wants peace". Stop expanding the settlements! Don't talk about peace and expand the occupation. Stop saying you want a 2 state solution!
The Zionists are Terrorists,Mossad,Occupied Palistinian lobby(Wont say the illegal name that the zionist called it)which has control of the Media,Government,CIA,MI5-6,Coorpratocrisy,Banks etc.They are worse than the Nazi's and also (i am not anti-semetic jews refuse national service and are tortured)Germans who didnt follow the Nazi,Romany Gypsies who lost just as many lives,and anyone who was in the way of all colours and creeds were in these pits but all by the Zionist "media" ,Jews.
RealK4 1 month ago in playlist More videos from popparook
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you gentiles are Pathetic Always take some jew and make him god or Messiah just like the jesus and kerl marx and know this noam chomsky did you ever wondering why is this all your biggst gods and messiah and your intellectuals from right and left are jewish and you wonder how we the jews call are self the chosen people dont diss this
comment in 100 yreas from know your kids will things that holly histroy just like your Fathers Though't even the arebs belive in a jewish idea of god
ehudnold9 6 months ago
Sderot is built on the lands of Najd, a Palestinian village ethnically cleansed by Jewish militia in 1948. Its residents probably fled into the Gaza strip. Most of Gaza’s population is descended from such refugees.
At least 450 children are among the 1,330 Palestinians who have died since Israel began to bomb the Gaza enclave on December 27.
Al Jazeera has obtained the names of 210 of the young victims, 44 of which were under five years old.
Your deeds, good or bad, will repay you in Kind.
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@Maxwedge12000
Oh wow what a typical wrong-headed right-winger. Wake up to reality and to the cruelties & crimes that Israel & the U.S. perpetuate. Can you even listen to the cogent arguments & mountains of evidence to this effect that Chomsky and others put forth? You can't, because you are blinded by your irrational beliefs, strong nationalistic views, and racist tendencies. Begone!
alccode 11 months ago
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alccode 11 months ago
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alccode 11 months ago
Chumpsky is a fringe lefty that only fringe lefties listen to.
Maxwedge12000 1 year ago
@Maxwedge12000
This is not a left vs right issue or whatever.. israel, with the US help, is commiting massive atrocities..
xMaXiMuSx 1 year ago
@xMaXiMuSx I beg to differ. This is all about left versus right. It is the right that stand to defend Israel's existence, it is the left that wants it to fade away. It is the left that always takes sides against U.S policy, not the right. The left defends terrorists, the right wants to kill them. This is all about political views and the left, as usual, is in the wrong position.
Maxwedge12000 1 year ago
@Maxwedge12000
well if they want to kill terorists than they should go after Israel.. you know the country that's killed more US people than Hamas and Hezbollah and so on..
xMaXiMuSx 1 year ago
@xMaXiMuSx Your statement is total nonsense and has no traction in reality. Such is typical of left wingers.
Maxwedge12000 1 year ago
@Maxwedge12000
well it is a statement of truth.. by the way I'm hardly a left winder, they're total frauds..
xMaXiMuSx 1 year ago
@Maxwedge12000 this has nothing to do with left vs right but right vs wrong.
Let me ask you this, North korea invaded seoul tomorrow, killed 2000 south koreans, used chemical weapons on them, then blockaded the country and sunk american aid ships going to Korea would you consider them terrorists?
If your answer is yes, why is it that Israel can do the exact thing and you think nothing of it.
3star2nr 10 months ago
@3star2nr terrible analogy. Palestine has never been a sovereign nation, unlike Korea. Look up "the arab conquests" and you will see they took Iraq, Syria, northern Africa, Lebanon, Jordan and Egypt. When all the Arabs vacate the lands they took from others, then and only then, can they demand the Jews leave. But we both know that will never happen. The Arabs are huge hypocrites. The Israelis and Arabs are forever bound to each other. They can live, or die, together.
Maxwedge12000 10 months ago
@Maxwedge12000 there may not have been a country called "Palestine" but that doesn't give the Jews the right to come in and exile people. Whether or not there was a country, there were people living there for years before the jews settled. Infact muslims and jews were living in the area in peace, it wasnt until they decided to have a jewish homeland, via the doctrine of Zionism that tensions really flared up. Yes they had small arguments before but nothing this major
3star2nr 10 months ago
@Maxwedge12000 taking lands by military force is wrong, The US did the same to the indians. That said Israel already exists so we have to move forward. The great evil that israel is doing is their continued expansion. At the end of the day thats what the war is about. Israel wants to control everything and exterminate the last of the palestinians. They want to kill every last one of them, but since the international community wont allow that they have resorted to killing them by other means
3star2nr 10 months ago
@3star2nr Israel gave the palestinians a chance to have their own nation. The pals blew it, as they always do.
Israel has drawn the correct conclusion, there will never be peace with the pals no matter what. The pals have publicly stated they will reject all peace initiatives and only want Israel's destruction. Isreal wants them gone now and is working to that end. Every nation on earth works in its own self interest. Israel is no exception.
Maxwedge12000 10 months ago
@Maxwedge12000 you are a stupid fuck
gobuddyboy 9 months ago
@gobuddyboy Now that's deep. How long did it take you to come up with that?
Maxwedge12000 9 months ago
@Maxwedge12000 Also left wing people are avid supporters of Israel. Clinton, and Obama who you would never consider Right wingers, both VETOED UN resolutions condemning israel for their crimes against humanity.
There are SEVERAL democrats, liberals progressives who close there eyes and blindly support israel.
So this ISNT about left vs right. AIPAC bribes and owns both sides open your eyes
3star2nr 10 months ago
tenorsarek,
Noam Chomsky is making a lot of money with his misleading ( and actually lying propaganda) He is a real old bastard of son of a bitch who betrays his Jewish people, yes, he can post criticism , but true, fair and honest, but he is not doing it.
A man who denies fact that has happened in history and are in history books and encyclopedias, and re-writing them is an Idiot, every intelligent person knows that it is all crap!!!
011jaffa 1 year ago
tenorsarek,
Fist go to Wikipedia and learn what is an apartheid and only than you can make a comment about apartheid in Israel!!!
011jaffa 1 year ago
xdeliriumx1
Noam Chomsky is a disgrace to his Jewish people. It is very easy to live in the U.S and pass judgment on Israel, let him move there and than he will have the right to talk.
011jaffa
011jaffa 1 year ago
It is quite obvious by many of the comments made here that chumpski is a moron magnet.
Maxwedge12000 1 year ago
@Maxwedge12000 you are an idiot. spare us and kill yourself
killerkitty777 1 year ago
@killerkitty777 you first little shit for brains. I will follow along.
Maxwedge12000 1 year ago
Chomsky is a trator!!!
011jaffa 1 year ago
@011jaffa traitor to what exactly? He is what a true patriot is, is willing to denounce criminal actions for what they are. What are you?
xdeliriumx1 1 year ago
@xdeliriumx1
He should do it by living in Israel and not by living comfortably in the U.S
or be a "Hero" by his big mouth, do don't talk....
011jaffa 1 year ago
@011jaffa
So someone can't criticize a nation unless they go live there? That makes a whole lot of sense. Also, I wouldn't call condemning apartheid and the horrid human rights violations that Israel commits an act of betrayal.
Israel is the traitor. They betray common decency towards fellow human beings every minute of every day.
tenorsarek 1 year ago
@xdeliriumx1
A patriot? what a joke. He denounce, and is twisting the facts..a Holocaust
denier. He said that the killing of thousands in Serbia has never happen. He re-writes history. Read about him in Wikipedia and how many lyes he is spreading , and is capitalizing on it. He is a real capitalist, living in a big home, and makes a lot of money by advertising his own fictions, and makes a name for himself as humane loving of the people of the world. Bull.....
011jaffa 1 year ago
@011jaffa wikipedia are you fucking kididng me? That ois one of the worst possible sources for info lol..
Apparently you should READ Chomsky's work instead of believing whta some idiot wrote about him.
For Serbia he says : The Turkish gvt (which the US supported and armed at roughly the same time) KILLED WAY MORE THAN THE SERBS DID, and it was his OWN people. A fact that never appeared anywhere, weird eh? Denounced other's crimes but silence on ours. thats what he syas
xdeliriumx1 1 year ago
@011jaffa Tell me mister which Chomsky books have you actually read entirely?
Or do you always judge people who have written about these topics for over 50 years based on bullshit you read on wikipedia? One of the worst sources available, lol.
xdeliriumx1 1 year ago
Noam Chomsky an SOB traitor who is a self hater!!!
011jaffa 1 year ago
@011jaffa Noam Chomsky is a great man.
devourerofbabies 1 year ago
oh sorry we cant critise israel otherwide it will be called anti semite or you criticise usa you are called a terrorists. #1 and #2 terrorists nations are usa and israel. fuck them both 1!!!!!!!
basitb3g 1 year ago
This guy is just a left wing wack job. Hard to believe there are people dumb enough to actually listen to this left wingnut.
Maxwedge12000 2 years ago
this coming from the wingnut lolol.
wedge head go back under your rock lol, he repeats well documented (tho not well media coverd) FACTS....so , um, suck it up kiddo .
the man is a genius...but you dont know anything about genius lol
killerkitty777 1 year ago
Genius? Chumpski? Fail.
Maxwedge12000 1 year ago
you are right , you fail miserably lol
killerkitty777 1 year ago
Oh look, another anal licking, chumpski worshiper. Start thinking for yourself, I know it is a lot more work but you may find it worth it.
Maxwedge12000 1 year ago
mmmm ass never tasted so good!
I gladly lick chomsky's ass if it means enlightenment 9it does , oh so yummy!) & an end to Israeli war crimes...ahem USraeli war crimes lolol
you are in such denial you silly sheep
killerkitty777 1 year ago
Do not worry about, you just keep licking that ass.
Maxwedge12000 1 year ago
num a num a num!!
mmmm truth tastes delicious!!!!
enjoy your mash!
killerkitty777 1 year ago
@killerkitty777
I don't lick livni ass
LSRochon 1 year ago
i dont think lesbians want dudes licking their ass anyway...or wait a minute...?
;P
killerkitty777 1 year ago
@killerkitty777 so US and Israeli crimes arent happening? lol you're the fucking sheep
xdeliriumx1 1 year ago
@Maxwedge12000 left? lmao dude listen to yourself keep supporting crimes against humanity you damn brainless fool. Do you know anything whatsoever about what is going on in that region or about international law? numbnuts
xdeliriumx1 1 year ago
@xdeliriumx1 what the fuck are you yapping about? oif course US and Israeli crimes are happening. stop flapping your face for a sec and READ what I write, then you would see thats exactly what I said.
fucking annoying
killerkitty777 1 year ago
dismantle Israel... no other way!
EgyptianPrinceCB 2 years ago 2
Good luck with that. :)
Maxwedge12000 2 years ago
always go with the winner... Islam
EgyptianPrinceCB 2 years ago
You mean the same islam that once had an empire that was defeated and went into a 1,000 year decline and was eventually chopped up into arbitrary nations by the european powers? You mean that islam? :) Sounds like a big loser to me.
Maxwedge12000 2 years ago
and yet everyone wants it lol
killerkitty777 1 year ago
@Maxwedge12000 Islam is a religion by the way.
xdeliriumx1 1 year ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
for an alleged linguist he sure cant distinguish between factual and emotional language.
isn't it all just relative? are we not supposed to be above it all?
he's one little sick puppy that one, sick in his head.
aoeaoae 2 years ago
You're an idiot.
Propagandhi900 2 years ago 2
This comment has received too many negative votes show
Is Cho's language here factual or emotional? Is his analysis dispassionately deconstructive and comparative-relativist?
How typical of a leftist, name calling instead of a reasoned rebuttal. But that's only understandable. You have your cherished worldview to protect. It is very brittle, but you just can't acknowledge that. You feel it is threatened, so you compensate with rage. Or are you high on your supposed moral and/or intellectual superiority?
aoeaoae 2 years ago
Don't you have black people to lynch and gays to verbally assault or a bible to thump?
Propagandhi900 2 years ago
Thanks for posting, popparook! Great video, and very informative, too.
SweetDissident 2 years ago 2
ballsauce666 2 years ago
The toddlers must hate until they get theior land back.
Israel will be destroyed because the Jews stole all the land from Arabs.
It will happen.
maltiskisokol 2 years ago
Jews are worst than Nazis!!
Iran will solve the problem!!
Chomsky is right as usual!!
The end of Israel will be observed in a while!
maltiskisokol 2 years ago
Hey maltiskisokol;
Please back up your statements with some facts. I dare ya.
boskinator 2 years ago
Would u accept peace with an entity that forced itself upon your land and forced mass deportation of your people?
friendofzeus 2 years ago
friendofzeus:
There was no force. If anything there was violent resistance from the getgo when plans for Jewish state was declared.
There was also no deportation. Refugee problem was created precisely due to the hostilities from the Arab side. It was so in 1948 war and 1967 war. Read a history book.
rptatbud 2 years ago
The resistance was initiated when hundreds of thousands of Jews were being poured into the region. Of course there would be resistance, another people were taking over what used to be the Palestinian land, homes, villages, mosques and churches.
The various massacres that were committed by Zionist militias terrorized the Palestinian populace into fleeing in mass numbers. You need more than a history book. You need some common sense.
friendofzeus 2 years ago
friendsofzeus
GET FACTS! Arguing that Zionists displaced Palestinian population through immigration is a lie and propaganda. Displacement of Arabs was because of THEIR wars. There's no excuse for YOU not knowing FACTS of Jewish massacres in Kfar Etzion, Hadassah Hospital, Safad, Hebron & many others. Only blemish on Jewish movement history is Dier Yassin, which was not perpetrated by Zionists and condemned by Ben-Gurion & Haganah
So which massacres exactly you're referring to? GIVE FACTS!!!
rptatbud 2 years ago
Which wars are YOU referring to?
Maybe you should quote too
adcashmo 2 years ago
adcashmo:
Maybe you haven't been reading. I've clearly made reference to 1948 war of Independence, 1967 6-day war, 1st and 2nd intifada as well as known massacres of Jews by Arab Palestinians in towns such as Hebron.
I have yet to see you basing your accusations on an actual historic fact. You actually claimed that settlements gave rise to the conflict, when first Arab-Israeli conflict dates to partition plans in 1917. So, your turn now. I'm patiently waiting still for your to produce facts.
rptatbud 2 years ago
Whysandniggerwhy: Israel gets about $10 million a day according to former president Jimmy Carter. U know the leader who wrote Peace or Apartheid and We Can Have Peace in the Holy Land. Israel and America R pretty much alone in this symbiotic moronicy, the rest of the world is watching Israel starve out the Palestimnians and R against your actions and Jimmy Carter says that all that Hamas is asking for right now is to open up supply routs so they don't starve.
tomestubbs 3 years ago
If Gaza had the same elaborate and sophisticated democracy Israel has, it wouldn't allow an islamist authocratic group such as Hamas to become a candidate for rulership in the first place. Just imagine what would happen to scholars in Gaza who would critisize Hamas' official policies, the same way Irit Zertal and Eldar Akiva write about Israel's policies? If Israel's neighbors had the same liberal ways as Israel, there would be peace already long time ago. Like US and Canada.
warmperson2007 3 years ago
Thank you Mr Chomsky for quoting Irit Zertal and Akiva Eldar. I can only marvel how those scholars and others, can write so fearlessly comments in strong contrast with Israel leadership's own explanations. This shows what a true democracy is. You may say that this doesn't change the facts. I say it does! If Gaza had the same elaborate and sophisticated democracy as Israel, it wouldn't allow an islamist authocratic group such as Hamas to become a candidate for rulership in the first place.
warmperson2007 3 years ago
He is a legend
may God give him a long life
perazh 3 years ago
what a wonderful point about obamas statement about his daughters...
if bombs were falling on his childrens heads he would do EVERYTHING he could to stop it....
i cant say obamas position is too suprising. however, his twisting of logic and inability to see that the palestinians are doing exactly what he deemed to be acceptable. that is, palestinians are doing everything and what little they can to defend against bombs being dropped on their childrens heads.
mcalien24 3 years ago
that was a question to the recent comment of rptatbud,
feta3000 3 years ago
It is NOT anti semetic to disagree with the brutal Likhud Party! Period! Ask USS LIBRTY survivors and the cowardice exhibitted by our own goverment ...in a war crime cover-up.
natalie2464 3 years ago
Likud made peace with Egypt giving back everythoing they wanted. There is more DISGREEMENT IN IS THAN YOU WOULD ALLOW IN YOUR ARGUMENTS. U REALLY KNOW NOTHING ABOUT WAR CRIMES. Read Judge A. Jay Cristol: The Liberty Incident - there are disputes about this - wake up!
yitzritz 3 years ago
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Another Zionist commenting (sorry criticizing) on the crimes of Zionist colonialism which has been occupying Palestine for the last 60 years and decemating the indigenous people. Chomsky fits perfectly to the definition of his oft repeated word - hypocrite.
For those offended by this - please refer to his comments on Zionism & Jewish homeland in his interview with The Book TV. Also, if you can read and analyse on your own, check out his Zionist past in the official biography by Robert Barsky.
PaashRevolutionary 3 years ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
I became a Zionist because of Dr. Chomsky president of Gratz College Philadelphia. Ever since I was a rabbi In Boston, I was subjected to the anti-Israel remarks of Dr. Chomsky's son NOAM- "pleasant." He never says anything positive about the Jewish people and Israel. It is really an embarrassment. Mr Noam stop hiding behind his tenured professorship and debate those with honest facts. There is a proverb: "those who will destroy you, will come from you." The Chomsky legacy is purloined.
yitzritz 3 years ago
What ever... I never believed in noam chomsky until recent acts in gaza. then i listen again to all his lecture again and he was right. not all jews are zionist. but all zionist aren't jews
dcange 3 years ago
What has Noam ever said that Israel deserves to be recognized and live in peace- War Crimes committed have been committed by Hamas in killing their own, planting bombs in hospitals, and in homes with Gazans scared to death of Hamas, and firing rockets randomly into civilian populations for 8 years, and Israel making sure that it was not purposely intending to harm civilians. I wish bombs were dropping on MIT from Harvard. How long do you think it will take for them to defend themselves.
yitzritz 3 years ago
Defending yourself from enemy attacks is normal. But bombing a city, killing thousands is beyond defense. I don't like to defending Hamas but the disproportion of the response to Hamas rockets is clearly visible. And your comment of bombing MIT just because of dissenting voice from Noam Chomsky proves the Zionist hatred of criticism.
dcange 3 years ago
Peace is the only battle worth waging.
underthebox 3 years ago
Thank goodness a man of Chomsky's stature and background has taken up the mantle of dissent on this issue. He cannot be called "anti-jew" or "anti-israel" and he is well placed to speak truth to power.
He is brave and intelligent (rare combination) and a National Treasure.
ROLtheWolf 3 years ago
INTERnational Treasure! ;)
sideshow999 3 years ago
Chomsky is a scientist. His contributions are priceless. However, I am alarmed by his political interpretation of the recent events of Hamas vs Israel conflict (note it's NOT Gaza vs Israel). Further, I find it dangerous that his established status as one of the great scientific minds fuels fanatic and extreme view points to the general masses that pay attention to this highly complex situation. That does nothing more than inspire prejudice and animosity against the state of Israel.
rptatbud 3 years ago
so on which view of his do you exactly disagree? please be more specific so the rest of us who interpret his contribution as a step towards peace can be alarmed as well
feta3000 3 years ago
In this excerpt, 3:24-4:07 would be most evident. Anyone who's competing for the voice in the political arena should be discredited with that statement alone. In case you're not aware, Hamas is not recognized and is currently enlisted as a terrorist organization, with exception of a few nations (e.g. Turkey). Secondly, as this issue in whole is criticized major factor of occupation resulting from a six day war is omitted and facts warped out of proportion. Israel has a right to defense.
rptatbud 3 years ago
rptatbud, there is not doubt that the most terrorized (literally) part of this conflict is palaistinian public.I dont see chomsky not condemning hamas' action (start 4/11 part).The problem is that he dares to condemn the Israeli actions too. What's your opinion? Do Palaist have right to Def? Their rockets have zero guiadance. Even if they want to hit Milit targets they cant.Give them F-16 and then we will judge if their intentions is to hit civilians (as IDF has doing) or military installations.
feta3000 3 years ago
Feta3000, you can't be serious. Arm Hamas? What's next? Will you advocate for a three state solution of Hamas, Fatah and Israel? Hamas rockets have no guidance, true. Just not too long ago their rocket range did not exceed 30km. Now it's surpassing 60km range. It is cuvilians in towns like Ashkalon and Ashdod that are suffering.Your comment on what Chomsky "dares" to do is interesting. I have yet to see evidence of this man putting aside inflated "criticism" and offer a viable solution.
rptatbud 3 years ago
Feta3000, just in case you missed that in your no doubt invaluable wikipedia readings and further in response to your comment of "Give them F-16 and then we will judge if their intentions is to hit civilians (as IDF has doing) or military installations. " I thought you might be interested in these translations from Palestenian Government chapter:
Hamas's Covenant 1/5: "Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it."
rptatbud 3 years ago
rptatbud, one my response to ur previous comment did not appear. hamas is already condemned for their actions. i dont understand why don't you condemn the use of f-16 from the other side though, they dont really drop flowers. I do stand for what chomsky is saying that both parties should be accounted for their actions.
feta3000 3 years ago
Feta3000. Well, at least it's a good start when you're ready to admit: "I do stand for what chomsky is saying that both parties should be accounted for their actions. " But is that the message in the lecture? Yet again let me make the point that Israel has a right and an obligation to protect its citizens. The active fraction in Gaza responsible for Jihadist mentality and terrorist actions IS the primary cause of civilian deaths and destruction. This is not a war, but defense against terror
rptatbud 3 years ago
isn't that the message rptatbud? he states at least twice that hamas should be condemned (7/11 8'.30 onwards) but he also criticizes the response from isr. And his arguments in my humble opinion are not irrational. I cannot immediately see why a seemingly unbiased (?), internationally acclaimed intellectual would manipulate facts. If we assume he isn't, then ur criticism is then directed to the way he is researching the issue. I am not the one who will criticize his ability to perform research.
feta3000 3 years ago
Feta3000, when you say "I am not the one who will criticize his ability to perform research", in that sense neither am I. I have an M.S. & believe me spent many nights studying Chomsky's work. The man is a genius when it comes to linguistics & CS. That's point was in my original statement. In politics however I wish before his "fans" took on his OPINIONS founded on personal interpretation of facts retained at least a fraction of an open mind. But he's not the first scientist turned politician
rptatbud 3 years ago
to conclude rptatbud :), I am not an expert of the subject and I can't check all the facts so I must choose my sources.You can't re-invent the wheel every time. The position of Isr is everywhere in the media and its expressed by politicians (a "derogatory" term you ve mentioned). I admit i am inclined towards Chomsky's views a. for the same reasons he describes in 9/11,4'20'' b. given his impartiality, his ability to logically deduct conclusions is unparalleled. I hope politicians were like him.
feta3000 3 years ago
To regard Chomsky as a "man of vision" on the subject is a mistake in my opinion. He sets forth no solution except for attack on Israel's measures against terrorism and ensuring the prevailing of a Nation. Rehashing of the conditions does nothing more in my opinion that incite unfounded sympathy and mask the true gravity of the situation. Merely basing your own convictions on the subject matter simply because someone is an authority figure in unrelated scientific field is a dangerous game.
rptatbud 3 years ago
A. at the end of his answer starting at 7/11 8'.30 he sets forth his view to solution. B. i totally disagree with you. I sincerely believe that linguistics is totally related field as it studies the tool we use to communicate and argue. Therefore I assume it allows you to better your argumentation and logical inferences. It is exactly like maths - these fields change the way you think and approach subjects, dont consider them as absolute knowledge.
feta3000 3 years ago
However, I am not an expert in linguistics either so please forgive any faults on my argumentation. take care rptatbud
feta3000 3 years ago
Feta3000:
Your arguments are good. If for the mere fact that there are many people who share your point of view. From that perspective, a dialog is very important.
rptatbud 3 years ago
Disagreement is good as it creates dialog. In your referenced "solution" there is no mention of current complications such as Hamas and Fatah schism (as well as multitude of other crucial factors). Things are not as clear cut as some would believe UN resolution is/ was. In addition, Chomsky himself states on 7/11@ 8:35 "Make of that what you want" after merely reciting partial facts. I think you have to keep in mind it's a lecture, not a lesson in history OR a prospect for future solutions.
rptatbud 3 years ago
point taken, thanks for the chat :)
feta3000 3 years ago
i agree, chomskys expertise in linguistics makes him perfectly suited to cut through propaganda...
and also for making judgements of nations based on the standards they set themselves. for example if we look at the definition of terrorism given by the US military, we see that the US gov. is guilty of terrorism by its own defintion.
mcalien24 3 years ago
on the contrary...he is not only illustrating israel crimes but he is simultaneously laying out a solution. one of his solutions is quite simple, END those crimes.
Its quite simple...if israel does not want terrorism to be done to them, they should stop participating in and conducting terrorist acts.
mcalien24 3 years ago
mcalien, well of course! According to Chomsky America had 9/11 coming too! You watch few videos where speaker clearly has anti-Israeli agenda, hardly touches on the subject of what incites violence in a first place-the only "condemnation" of Hamas is in part 7/11@9:10 where he calls them politically stupid & then negating that statement by comparing Israel to Nazi Germany. What do you think will happen if Israel will give up defenses? West Bank goes to Jordan, Gaza to Egypt and there is peace?
rptatbud 3 years ago
that is not chomskys view on 911...he dosent believe anyone had anything coming...rather he wasnt suprised that a radical muslim group conducted terrorist acts because after all, we in the US have supported terrorism in the mid east...israeli terror, and the proping up of dictatorships which conduct terror on their own people.
the israeli occupation is illegal...the first step is ending the intial illegallity. palestine should have their own state...gaza and the west bank on the 1967 borders
mcalien24 3 years ago
mcalien? Really? watch?v=10rTPSSmOFw Chomsky's views on America as a "Nazi" terrorist state is no secret, and do bear a great deal of parallel on his recycled view on Israel. Secondly 1967 borders is a historical issue worth researching. Understanding events to this "perception" that is some 40 years old on the plain of historical tapestry is a first step to realizing what this is all about.
rptatbud 3 years ago
well what is no secret is that after WW2 the US helped senior Nazi officers escape prosecution in return for teaching us some of their nazi tactics....which we still use to this day...and which israel uses right now...namely collective punishment.
the world is in agreement....the US, Israel and a few other countries (Australia, Micronesia) annually block the two state solution UN vote. The world court has ruled that the 1967 borders are israels legal borders...israel should respect the law.
mcalien24 3 years ago
You're right, there's no argument that European treatment towards the Jews propagated the establishment of Zionist movement.
Two state solution as long as Hamas is in power no longer applies. Why is it so hard to accept?
rptatbud 3 years ago
you ask what will happen if israel ends its occupation...will that end hostilities?
i understand ur concern...however, NOT ending israeli crimes because the result may be crimes committed against israel is not a valid argument.
if israel ends its occupation and is then attacked then they will be legitimately, justly and actually defending themselves rather than simply continuing their aggression.
but given that occupation is aggression...ending occupation, should end the resistance.
mcalien24 3 years ago
mcalien:
in layman's terms, it is not a concern, but issue of State of Israel survival. Chomsky advocates it is a simple issue, I plead with you, it is not. Both sides are involved in this conflict, there's no doubt. And I assure you, no Israeli is craving innocent blood. Some are acts of defense others of preemptive decisions, while others are of desperation. But the reality is Israel has a right to exist, and this is the right that is defended.
rptatbud 3 years ago
not only does israel have the right to exist...but i DOES exist...
when we say israel has the right to exist its almost as if we are forgetting that it is Israel that does exist...while the palestinians are the ones under occupation, struggling for a state
israel does exist and they do have the right to defend themselves..
but they do not have the right to occupy others...or claim that their only form of defense is to be militaristic...they can in fact defend israel by ending occupation
mcalien24 3 years ago
mcalien, you're advocating for legalizing a state whose covenant is is to destroy that state of Israel. I don't mean to put words in your mouth, but by ceasing all lines of defenses without holding terrorist states accountable you're in essence contributing for destruction of the country. The only way Israel has been able to maintain its presence is by fortifying. Ending "occupation" is going to accomplish a short term Arabic League goal. Have you considered the consequences?
rptatbud 3 years ago
i agree with chomsky on this issue
i believe israel is sowing the seeds of its own destruction with acts of violence such as this recent aggression in gaza.
again you refer to israeli occupation as defenses...occupation is aggression and israel should consider abiding by the law, ending occupation, and respecting international law and concensus.
what has israel been able to maintain? a state barely holding on to its morality. and what are the consequences of palestinian kids dying?
mcalien24 3 years ago
mcalien24:
Why would you make a conclusion that Israel is "a state barely holding on to its morality."
On the other hand, why are you so eager to hold the State of Israel to biding by law, clearly dismissing crimes against it?
rptatbud 3 years ago
if i come off as one-sided it is because i am very sad and angry that my tax dollars are going to support this aggression...and clearly the debate in the US is one sided
but by illustrating israeli actions i in no way am trying to diminish the nature of the crimes committed against israel...namely the firing of rockets by hamas and other militant groups. those are real crimes as well and should not be overlooked
i also urge the palestinians to take a peaceful approach and renounce violence
mcalien24 3 years ago
I don't think it's an issue of being one-sided, but it is more-less an issue of taking sides. This recent conflict has turned world's attention to this very difficult political, economic and social situation. To contradict Chomsky yet again, there are no short and simple answers. It is our responsibility as citizens of our country and members of the global community to AT LEAST educate ourselves. Not just simply rule "rights&wrongs" based on someone else's...well.. opinion.
rptatbud 3 years ago
that israel is barely holding onto its morality...i drew that conclusion because while israel may have a moral end to this conflict in mind, the means they are using to achieve this end are discrediting the morality of the objective.
if preserving the state of israel is the highest moral imperative for the israelis, they are seemingly becoming immoral in pursuit of that imperative.
mcalien24 3 years ago
mcalien:
That's one point of view, and taking into consideration your argument in whole it could be a logical conclusion.
However, keep in mind, that again, in layman's terms, even having two state solution decades back under original conditions would merely result in one Palestenian "state", as it was never a hidden agenda to destroy Israel.
As an aside fact, you may also want to ask yourself a question why during conflict Egypt fortified siding Gaza border with orders to shoot any crossers.
rptatbud 3 years ago
i absolutely think it was deplorable for egypt to keep their borders closed and not let civilians flee the bombing...
however, its no secret why. as im sure you know...hamas is the ally of the muslim brotherhood, which is the opposition group to the government in egypt.
mcalien24 3 years ago
yikes, wanted to hit reply, removed my comment by mistake, sorry. if you can, pls. repost.
But yes, that certainly complicates things with Egypt welcoming Gaza back, doesn 't it? Ah, the plot thickens!!
rptatbud 3 years ago
Comment removed
fightingforcrayons 3 years ago
rptatbud,nobody is dismissing crimes against Isr. H has already been characterized as a terrorist org, as u so often use it as an axiom to the defence of ur arguments.
A. If H is a terrorist organization (u prefer PDF?) or B. if it is the "only" one terrorizing the area are different issues. And up to now the decision on both these issues are 100% pro-israeli. Given also the death toll, the undeniable collective punishment and occupation, it is difficult for ISR to persuade that it is the victim
feta3000 3 years ago
feta3000:
I don't understand, you agree to characterization of opposing fractions as terrorist, yet you deny the right of Israel to arm against its aggressors. What solution again do you propose? Deliberate sacrifice of the Nation and human lives?
rptatbud 3 years ago
rptatbud: I haven't been persuaded who is the aggressor here (just because Bush and his protectorate said so - why should i not believe human right watch, amnesty international which are by definition humanitarian orgs serving higher morals or a professors from MIT & Princeton). Both sides claim that respond to others actions. Assuming this, then the military action from both sides has to adhere the rules of conduct of war. **And Israel's conduct of war violate these rules on a massive scale**
feta3000 3 years ago
feta3000:
Allright, so yet again, let me ask you a question. If militant terrorist groups are not challenged with their destruction, what other solution is viable in your opinion?
rptatbud 3 years ago
guys, what the hell? did the posts got erased? anyway.. rptatbud this recursive loop of opinions is never ending. The only way to end it is to identify the fundamental differences. What I believe is: if H is terrorists because of their actions, Isr actions are even worse so Isr is terrorizing. Should Isr then as well be challenged with destruction? It is already by Hamas who consider Isr as a terrorist. You opinion hardly differs from Hamas'
feta3000 3 years ago
I am not an expert to propose a sol. I express my view which is formed by my only feedback, what I see on TV, read on the papers (indymedia, democracy now, european papers, cnn, human rights watch,red cross, amnesty international, mit professors). Can you suggest alternative impartial sources of info for an eu citizen who cant read Hebrew? What I see and read is kids with no legs, bulldozed houses and american activists, shot british, a us graduate with two brothers shot crying in democracy now
feta3000 3 years ago
feta3000:
"I am not an expert to propose a sol."
Yet it doesn't stop you from advocating for the course of action. Perhaps first the effort should be spend on trying to identify solution routes and then argue for political recourse. What you are suggesting will not bring halt to this situation by any means.
rptatbud 3 years ago
as my opinion is already formed and i admit difficult to reverse, the only value in it is not the actual context (which is a product of the limited conclusions i can deduce given my limited initial parameters/knowledge).The actual value of it is to ask urself why citizens who put an effort to find impartial/unbiased sources reach the same conclusions...do you think i am a victim of propaganda ? organized by whom? what is chomsky/hrw/amnesty is gaining from this? did Bush gain anything from Isr?
feta3000 3 years ago
feta3000:
"H is terrorists because of their actions, Isr actions are even worse so Isr is terrorizing. "
In all seriousness, if you can come up with arrangement where Hamas doesn't store weapons and fire rockets from mosques, schools and civilian buildings, there would be for humanists much less to feel bad about. The fundamental difference is that one side is trying to destroy a nation while another one is acting in ensuring it's existence. No strike by Israel is unprovoked.
rptatbud 3 years ago
Comment removed
fightingforcrayons 3 years ago
furthermore...ur choice of words is really astonishing...
u refer to the israeli occupation of gaza and the west bank as "israeli defenses." ridiculous.
also...i am am not anti-semitic and i understand that the comparison of israel to nazi germany is unsettling...
however...facts are facts. if israel or any other state uses the same tactics that the nazis used or created, then thats their problem....not the problem of the person who is making the obvious comparison of those tactics.
mcalien24 3 years ago
Term anti-Semitic need not apply here because Palestinians are Semites too. Secondly, how is Israeli tactic comparable to what Nazi's used or created? Do you see them pleading for world and ethnic domination? No, it's about a tiny strip of land they can call home.
rptatbud 3 years ago
your talking about ideology...not tactics...
but look at the history of israel...since their inception they have been expanding their territory...
furthermore, many people have used the word apartied to describe the situation there. palestinians not allowed to use the same utilities that settlers on their own land are using.
no i dont think israel are nazis....
but one specific tactic that the nazis used that israel is using is collective punishment by way of the blockade...
mcalien24 3 years ago
Blockade is a very complicated issue within itself. In short, it did stop suicide bombings didn't it? It may not be a popular view, but evolution of Israel and industrialization of the region has been a result of State's policies. By cutting off hostile territories many people did loose their jobs and income. Is it is long term solution? No, absolutely not. But how do you live with openly militant Islamic extremists such as Hamas who's only mission is eradication of your country?
rptatbud 3 years ago
a lot of exchanges...ill try to respond to ur points...however...ur apologetics for israels crimes are getting kinda ridiculous
u make a good point...how do you live with extremists as ur neighbors...and no doubt hamas is extreme to say the least.
i think hamas' charter still calls for the erradication of israel. however, what is israel calling for and doing? Israel is calling for and using terrorism to carry out the destruction of the elected hamas party
do you not see the hypocracy?
mcalien24 3 years ago
mcalien24:
I agree. The subject matter at hand is beyond what this forum can offer. The primary viewpoint that is challenged by me is definition of crime in your argument. If true by your definition, the only way to win in the court of "public" opinion here is for Israel to lay down its defenses and showcase to the world becoming a victim so that it's fight would be just. If so then this "victory" will not realize.
My only suggestion is faucet your opinions from multiple sources.
rptatbud 3 years ago
Comment removed
fightingforcrayons 3 years ago
fightingforcrayons:
"you're wrong. Hamas supports a two-state solution."
Err... Have you googled Hamas charter recently? Keep in mind, that even if more liberal members of the party may have called for tahdia or hudna, by any means that doesn't mean "two state solution". Do you even know what having a State under that proposed definition is? Secondly, how do you suppose a single state of Palestine will work with their opposing Fatah whom Hamas have been trying to eradicate as well in WB?
rptatbud 3 years ago
Hamas have said they will accept and recognise israel if israel recognises it has obligations to palestinian refugees. That doesnt make them perfect, but it is a clear acceptance of some form of two state solution. I know about the hamas charter but the US constitution says that black people should be counted as 3/5s human. Times change.
Arrrz77 3 years ago
Arrrz77:
"Hamas have said they will accept and recognise israel if israel recognises it has obligations to palestinian refugees. "
Perhaps it's Hamas that should first recognize it's obligations to Palestinian refugees. For starters, they can begin by returning two UN convoys of food and supplies sent to help conflict battered human shield Gazans that Hamas has stolen.
Times change? Apparently not for terrorist groups that teach preschoolers jihad and martyrdom. /watch?v=tNtgiRR0iDM
rptatbud 3 years ago
-Hamas (the elected government) has "stolen" two UN convoys of food and supplies for gazans. The UN referred to this incident (i just googled it), as hamas "interfering in distribution". Hamas claimed the trucks went missing on the Israeli side.
-There's only a humanitarian crisis due to the illegal blockade that Israel PROMISED to lift when the original (summer) ceasefire began. (they didn't even move to.
-Human shields? I contend they are targeted. See first bit of part one of above vid.
Arrrz77 3 years ago
Arrrz77:
Then google again.
- You must have missed headlines that read "UN's Ban demands Hamas release seized Gaza food aid"
-For "legality" aka protection from suicide bombers google Dershowitz. He's professor at Harvard Law.
-Hamas consistently uses human shields (including children and women).
So, in closing, keep googling.
rptatbud 3 years ago
-Food is seized by ministry of social affairs? Perhaps to make into bombs? or to feed people? I can't tell. neither can you.
-You could only allow goods through, or you could open the egypt/gaza border. Israel agreed to open the border for a ceasefire. the firing stopped, the border stayed closed. (also hamas offered to return to the 2005 agreement before the recent conflict and was ignored.
-Israel targets civilians. Why else begin the attack at a time when civilian deaths will be high?
Arrrz77 3 years ago
Arrrz77:
-Ministry of social affairs took the blankets and food? Perhaps you should read statements made by Ziyad al-Zaza.
-open Egyptian/Gaza board? Sure, sounds like a great solution. You'd have to overthrow current Egyptian government first, and replace them with MB fanatic movement, but hey!
- Israel does not target civilians. Before every strike, Israel dropped thousands of pamphlets announcing the target and made direct calls to residents to evacuate.
rptatbud 3 years ago
- The telgraph reported the goods were driven off in min of social affairs trucks.
- The Israelis promised to open the border in the summer. They did in 2005, hence they could open the border.
-Not the first strike. That began without warning. And at a time when casulaties would be high. y?
-Also Olmert promised a "disproportionate" israeli response to new rocket attacks. That clearly means blood for blood. (disproportionately).
I am stopping this now. thanks 4 being cordial.
Arrrz77 3 years ago
Arrrz77:
The primary objective was to destroy combatant sites with weapons, network of tunnels used for weaponry smuggling (revived to life now), & prevent further rocket/militant attacks on Israeli citizens. Disproportionate? Yes. Thankfully so due to measures taken by the Israeli government to ensure that Hamas doesn't get their hands on more destructive weaponry, which they have been trying
Thanks right back for the discussion. If you happen to find the name of that book, drop me a line.
rptatbud 3 years ago
rptatbud, Israels ongoing attacks strangulation, starvation cutting off of resources etc has provoked a few attacks. U get cause and affect all wrong!
tomestubbs 3 years ago
During the operation there was temp blockage in response to escalating rocket assaults from Hamas. BUT, it is Israel that coordinates humanitarian assistance to Gaza. Did you know that it's primary Israel that sends truckloads of food, medicine & supplies there?
Meanwhile UN still awaits return of the food & supply aid hijacked by Hamas. UNRWA claims some were ceased at gun point from refugee camps. Hamas was even selling it to needy. And that's with the world watching. Where's the excuse?
rptatbud 3 years ago
That's not what Eva Stern, Emira Hass, Robert Fisk, Noam Chomsky, Norman Finkelsytein says! Given the credibility of the people I mentioned I will not agree w/ you.
tomestubbs 3 years ago
tomestubbs:
Names can be used to discredit the point of view based on some "history". Chomsky, alas! is no exception, some some may argue he could be tied in a lead with Finkelstein. By the same token there are numerous supporters for Israel's cause. We can certainly play the name dropping game. But journalists and reporters?
The bottom line is that you have to look passed someone else's point of view and make up your mind for yourself. This is about find ways to co-exist and survive.
rptatbud 3 years ago
Most people throughout the world see Chomsky and others point(s) of view as Not controversial. The Zionist regime is equal 2 the Neocons here in the US of Amnesia!.
tomestubbs 3 years ago
tomestubbs:
That's quite a feat to talk on behalf of what most people in the world think. I argue, that most probably do not know who Chomsky is, and part of those that do approach his political views with caution (I list myself amongst the latter).
Nonetheless, judging from the "pool" of the sources you've pointed out earlier, it's not surprising that you have these convictions.
rptatbud 3 years ago
rptatbud--A well rounded one at that. Chomsky is amongst the most quoted intellectuals in the world. I don't agree w/ everything he says but he certainly is at the top of my list of great humans.
tomestubbs 3 years ago
tomestubbs:
in my prior posts here I extend a great deal of admiration to Chomsky as a scientist. I'm glad to see (from your comment) that not all of his political ideas are blindly assimilated.
This lecture, however, is hardly an introduction to the essence of the conflict. Very little factual bases for opinionated arguments, and plagued with omissions as well as one-sideness. There is no black&white in this conflict. Being a 'great human' does not transcend to being "right" by default.
rptatbud 3 years ago
Chomsky has spent 30 years studying the conflict and causes.
As far as Israel's "humanitarian assistance," if they would open the borders and allow the free flow of food, then they would not have to, in their "benevolence," provide "humanitarian aid."
FatherCreepy 3 years ago
fatherCreepy:
When it comes to ANY nation's domestic/foreign policy benevolence is certainly not the primary pillar of the actions, political 'science' or law.
Suppose the borders are opened, as you had suggested (I assume you meant only on Israeli side). How do you propose that will resolve current militant and Jihadist tensions? What in your opinions consequences will be in terms of political structure in the Middle East, democracy process and global economy?
rptatbud 3 years ago
rptatbud,
"Democracy process"?! You have some guts to even mention that! Hamas was democratically elected, but you rejected the Palestinian democracy, because aparantly, they "picked the wrong side"! And please do not bring up that Hamas wants to destroy Israel. They declared last year that they are willing to declare the Palestinian state on the 1967 borders.
And to answer your question: if the borders were opened, there would (at least) be a cease-fire!
ghorab 2 years ago
ghorab
1. Hamas is internationally condemned as a terrorist organization.
2. On 4/21/08 Khaled Mashaal said "We have offered a truce if Israel withdraws to the 1967 borders, a truce of 10 years as a proof of recognition" and Ismail Haniyeh A Palestinian state will not be created at this time except in the territories of 1967". There was and still is NO explicit recognition of Israel (refer to Hamas charter PLS!). Hamas & PLO are at war. Their negotiations with Abbas failed or were boycotted.
rptatbud 2 years ago
1. Hamas is "condemned as a terrorist organization" mainly because it said it wouldnt recognize Israel's right to exist, which it doesnt anymore.
2. As you said "a truce of 10 years as a proof of recognition". Again, "proof of recognition". What more do you want them to do?! Just surrender and accept the occupation and de-facto conditions?! I just dont understand why you would expect them to believe anything you say if the occupation is on-going and expanding!
Next message will contain more.
ghorab 2 years ago
ghorab I'll respond to your arguments although many points were addressed in my prior comments here
1&2 Hamas are terrorists. Born as a branch of Muslim Brotherhood it was condemned by EU,USA & others for its militant tactics & warfare in the Middle East. Hamas has never explicitly or POLITICALLY recognized a right of Israel to exist. It's reflected in their charter, speeches &negotiations. Aside from implicit verbal statements, show me ONE document where Hamas recognized Israel's right to exist
rptatbud 2 years ago
3. Fatah has been practicing peaceful negotiations for some time now, they recognize Israel and they want to establish the Palestinian state on the 1967 borders. Yet, Israel is not going for peace with Fatah, but are expanding the settlements in the West Bank in violation of UN resolutions and international laws. So please, stop ranting about how "Israel wants peace". Stop expanding the settlements! Don't talk about peace and expand the occupation. Stop saying you want a 2 state solution!