I think they didn't torture the nazi's because the nazi's where white.
And these 'terrorists' (only a few of which are ACTUAL terrorists, and the rest a mix of people who are completely innocent but just unlucky, or people who simply are resisting US influence in their country (but wouldn't go after the US itself.) are brown.
I think that so IS a factor.
That and the repubs are EVIL. Not quite sure how people miss this obvious fact so much.
Bringing up WWII as a beacon of better morals and ethics? Really? Nukes weren't even the worst of it. But all in all, *I* think it was mostly justified...
Also, you kind of have to be naive to believe that 'enhanced interrogation techniques' weren't used. Just because there was no media (and youtube) like today, doesn't mean everything was perfect.
This nostalgic, idealizing view of the past is usually a fundie thing. What a shame.
my 1st enlistment in the Corps I went to PI then Memphis Naval Air Station for helo class then NC for SERE school. while at the last we under went severe stuff to simulate POW status. i almsot didn't get thru that course. and IT was run by "friendly forces" i was not water boarded. i saw that over seas and saw ppl die. no one was charged of course. no one who hasn't done SERE school has the right to an opinion supporting this barbarity. but i'll gladly water board YOU so you know!
Someone should water board you? Retard the US invaded Iraq after blowing up there own twin towers, get over your hypocrysy, you zionazi loving freak. IU wouldn't be surpised if all the torutre thses soldiers and Zionazi freaks like you are put into something that even puts the holocaust to shame in the next life with Satan himself to accmpany you.
Rember Islam is the fastest growing reliigon especailly amongst women whichis why a fag liek you doesn't like it.
And a pansy bigot like you caliing anyone else gay is funny too, how are the gay marriages going in the candaian church you hypocrite freak.
Truth is you being a retard is sad not funny which is why you dodn't even understand Islam is the only truth against the ignorant people who take Satan fro a friend such as you bigot homos and you hypoxcrites.
I wish that we could bring Bush and company to justice.
One problem though:
If we try a past president for legitimate reasons, someone 10-20 years down the line will find a way to use this as precedent to try a past president for illegitimate reasons.
Now, putting Bush and company before the UN...
That is something that I am in favor for. After all, they violated the articles of Geneva Conventions. It would be very appropriate for them to answer to an international system of law.
excellent vid, torture doesn't get credible information. personally, i think these people should be tried for war crimes.
no doubt the bush administration was sensitive to another attack, and felt these tactics were warranted, but it was a worthless tactic that did more harm than good. a constant theme of the bush administration.
The end result of the Torture policy review will be a revised interrogation policy which the CIA,FBI,Law Enforcement and DOD will be required to follow.
Violations of the policy will be answered in a court of law or military court-martial.
People who oppose this are also opposed to the U.S. constitution and its protections.
Are beheadings acceptable? It's not torture. I understand the outrage with torture but I don't understand the lack of outrage at our enemies. This shouldn't be a political argument. We'll all lose.
Behadings and other war-crimes are NOT acceptable, whats why we try them in a court and if found guilty they usually get the death penalty (Nuremburg trials etc)
When we do it, we lose our credibility to try others for the same offense....which in the Islamic world says everything we are about is just Bullshit. Do as we say not as we do.
The proponents of war and torture are found in the War Lobby in Washinton. Most of them are chicken hawks who never served a day in uniform.
The judge was in name only...in reality he was a lap dog for Bush Cheney. Remember the separation of powers outlined in the constitution? The Judicial branch does not take orders from the executive branch (President) The founding fathers were very smart to create this system.
With a new judge to be nominated soon, I wish that were the case. Lap dog judges are being openly sought out by the current administration. I don't know much about Gonzalez but I don't doubt what you say. It's just as important now as it was then.
With the current freedom of the press and Faux news, I am certain any new judicial nominee will get "grilled" to our satifaction before being confirmed.
I remember that Bush used some rather unsavory tactics to push his judicial picks through the system.
What worries me is that no one is discussing actual judicial qualifications. It's all about race, gender, financial background, etc... Fox news will certainly grill' em but the whole discussion is way off topic. The word empathy is being thrown around. That's the Dem version of the Rep abortion card. It's a distraction to get us to fight each other rather than watching Washington. Empathy is a quality for representatives, not supreme court judges.
by the way.....my grandfather who was a Tuskegee airman could tell you how they treated the Nazis, because they treated them better than he was because he was black.......forget about he was fighting for our country......think this was liberals kicking black soldiers off of trains, or out of eating places so that the Nazi's can use them.........Dem or Rep they were the same type of people who are running the Republcan party now.....
remember that before they were, (Bush), saying that a few bad apples were doing these things, and were they not convicted?...........the guards?.........now the story is not that this was a couple of rogue soldiers but a policy....now the story is that they were successful in getting "information".....but they will not tell us what information......sounds like how the reason for invading Iraq kept changing.........how can people support this because those that did it were in their party....SICK
I'm shocked, a TURK givin a sermon AGAINST torture? Silly, bastard, torture is being skinned alive, head chopped off with dull sword, nails ripped off, bones broke! Come on TURK, your culture wrote the book on TORTURE! Fkin, hypocrite!
A better way than this "war" and legal gamesmanship, would be to takeover the oilfields, and LET the terrorists do whatever they wanted, using up their materiel, and without petrodollars to rearm, they'd have to poke at the civilized world with sticks and stones, rather than AK47s and C4!
You keep saying that "As you act, so shall you be treated"; let's apply it to the terrorists!
They are not defending their home, they are defending their disobedience...Like the wackos in Waco!
I understand what you mean, and I'm not suggesting that we don't punish them. It's just that the thought of torture bothers me. I'd hate to compare this to the Salem witch trials, because I'm sure the methods we use are much more refined, but they wound up making a lot of so called "witches" fess up under torture, when actually those being interogated just said anything they could to make the pain stop, which included incriminating themselves.
Ok, but by the arguments the liberals already used, if they didn't hate us before, they do now.
Also, as someone else brought up, these were the scum their nation actually GAVE to us. At worst, they are the terrorists that were stupid enough to get caught by the local law-enforcers. At best, they are a random emptying of Iraq's jails and alleyways, so WE deal with their criminals.
Why are they being treated better than the terrorists treat our soldiers?
Call me an idealist, but how are we supposed to change the attitudes of our enemies toward us when we sink to such low levels? If they see that we treat our EPOWs fairly, it seems to me that we could not only get better information, but change some of their minds about us. Instead, we create more enemies by such inhumane treatments.
No, as long as we keep waggling our fingers in their faces like a chiding parent, and never REALLY punish them, then like a spoiled child, they'll learn they can beg off punishment.
Sometimes, a disobedient child NEEDS to be punished, rather than a "stern talking-to"
Iraq violated Kuwait's sovereignty, violated UN ceasefires 17 times, and disobeyed direct orders from US and UN.
Then their "brave" terrorists pretend to be "civilians" (with AK47s) to avoid punishment. How is that dignified?
It is reassuring, however, that Cenk watches Fox. I guess if you tell a reporter to report something, they will do it (to use his analogy about attorneys) but clearly, he does subscribe to the notions of Fox News.
1. Terrorists rcvd the procedure during very limited times as done with U.S. military, with medical staff present. The terrorists were not treated any differently than our own military are treated during their training sessions.
KSM wasn't waterboarded 183 times. That is a lie. KSM was not waterboarded 183 times. Water was poured on him 183 times. Policy approved by the US Sen Intel Committee allowed 12 min of pours per day. Pours averaged 7 to 30 secs by policy. If you gave "a damn" about the facts, to use your terms, then report them, not fabricate or twist them.
Also, can you guys clear up something else for me? Assuming my history book isn't a TOTAL fabrication, America cleared most of Europe of German aggression, AND bombed Japan until they surrendered in 4 years (1941-1945)
So how is it that clearing IRAQ, a much smaller area, of Moslem terrorists, has taken 8 years?
And it can't be because of squeamishness over casualties, as the casualties on BOTH sides of WWII were MUCH higher!
Folks, if you learn one thing here let it be this: You will be terrorized exactly as long as you tolerate it.
We won't win this war by SETTING examples, we'll win by MAKING examples. Make them afraid to attack any American, EVER...Or at least until the next Moslem uprising...
alright let me get the american phone book and call everyone in the US , ask if there muslim and if they support terrorists.
yes muslims who have nothing to do with terrorism, who most likely immigrated here from a shitty country, root for the people that wanna destroy the country they live in/immigrated to.
how can you tell the difference? hmm lets see the muslim doesnt say intolerant hateful things and doesnt blow up buildings.
this muslim says hateful remarks and promotes violence.
I went to the local mosque, their Imam says that the infidels must be destroyed from within, America must fall, etc. I call the cops, and turns out that's NOT hate speech! Later, Rev Wright gains infamy for just saying "God Damn America"...Who knew!
But again, they were NOT saying that terrorists are bad, they seemed to be calling the "faithful" to destroy Americans!
So is it only hate-speech if Americans call for the downfall of some other group?
not at all. yes some muslims hate this place. (actually they hate any place that isnt islam).
it isnt hate speech though... if i burn a flag, i shouldnt be jailed. i didnt hurt anyone/threat anyone and if i did it in a safe enviroment, than i didnt endanger anyone else. therefore its free. they can hate america as much as they want but until they threaten or actually commit crimes, there free under our constitution.
i dont like it either but free speech goes both ways.
Maybe, but remember, Moslems don't respect free speech, although it benefits them directly as you mentioned. In England, they got "Three Little Pigs" banned, because it "offends" them, and here, they have succeeded in getting the Ten Suggestions (Commandments is too strong a word) removed from public places, they got "So Help Me God" removed from court swear-ins...And got a few levels removed from Hitman videogame, but that's minor
Yes...Oddly, Australia, of all countries, had the balls to tell the Imams that if they couldn't abide by the laws and customs, that they should clear out!
Why is AUSTRALIA standing up for itself, but not AMERICA?
America LETS them get away with this, and basically, we'll get treated as poorly as we LET others treat us!
That, BTW, is why I think we should clear-cut the Moslem cult in the countries that attack us, rather than worrying about "offending" THE ENEMY, or whatever. Force them back into remission, like you would with any other cancer...
I love these guys. The Nazis were the best example, they gave us so much misinformation that our intelligence was screwed over. The Nazi's gave out so much false information because they knew living as an American POW was a hell of alot better then being capture by the Soviets. So the lied and spewed out so much BS that the CIA gave them protection. So, not torturing gives the same amount of results, if not worse, then torturing.
A fine thing, America has to fight a bunch of savages, without help from most of the detractors, but WE have to play by the "rules"...Who's going to make THEM play by the "rules"?
So when is the Bush administration going to be charged for warcrimes ?? combatants who are hors de combat (out of the fight) due to wounds, detention, or any other cause shall in all circumstances be treated humanely, including prohibition of outrages upon personal dignity, in particular humiliating and degrading treatment. Id Suggest the US reads on the GCIII otherwise known as the third geneva convention on the treatment of prisoners of war....
Alternately, let's turn these animals over to Sheriff Joe, and let them WORK off their debt to humanity...And return the 5 Chinese terrorists to China, as a Sign of Good Faith!
See, that's my point: The enemy already captures and tortures and kills...We should just skip to killing. And OD there had a better point: "living as an American POW was a hell of alot better"
We need to make life hell for our prisoners, not a condition devoutly to be wished!
You know, though...Since America outsources everything else, why not outsource our terrorists too? China can do a MUCH better job on them than we can, and some of the terrorists are already scared of China!
The bad news, it'll result in MORE unemployment in America, this time in our penal system...But sacrifices must be made in wartime, right? ;)
If these "techniques" are not torture, then the obvious question is then why don't we use them in our everyday law enforcement? Waterboard all US civilian suspects/prisoners when needing information.
From the start of this outbreak it was clear that this was not a natural emergence of a virus. Pig virus from three different continents, an avian virus, and human virus. How does one catch a swine flu from a pig that has traveled to three different continents?
8:37 pay close attention here. the bush administration IS guilty of war crimes. how is it that information like this can be made public and people are not going to trial? the only difference between politicians like bush and cheney and bosses in organized crime? they are able to gain public support for their crimes by appealing the the prejudices of the weak minded and the greedy.
To prosecute Bush administration officials would be political suicide for Democrats. There is no traction with the American people fo this.
And if we are attacked during public hearings, forget-about-it. Republicans will be back in power. President Obama knows this, so expect his administration to have no involvement.
I predict a toothless investigation followed by a scolding report and a bunch of whining and sniveling demogougery.
untrue. the majority of the population wants to see an inquiry into this. if laws were broken (They were), there needs to be an application of justice.
You might be right, toldyousohaha, which says more about the spineless, selfish, short-sighted, cruel character of the American people than anything of real ethical substance. Like most humans, we're poor at acknowledging how fucked up we really are.
As opposed to the spineless, selfish, short-sighted, cruel character of the thugs trying to destroy us, right?
As to trial, would it be effective to try each thug as we get them, and watch as the Moslem support-network rallies to "save" them from our legal system--Look up CAIR's scandals--Or would it be better to wait until we've got the whole set?
Dude, the world is fucked up. Always has been. Man's inhumanity to man is well documented. If America would suddenly start to act like a nation of pussies, we'd be conquered fast.
Think of your own words: "...the spineless, selfish, short-sighted, cruel character of________[FILL IN BLANK] Any non-conquered culture in any point in history would fit nicely. It explains why we snivel over torturing terrorists, then rationalize abortion over 3000 times daily.
And recognizing that weakness and railing against it has been the role of contrarians for millenia, from Cato to Abbie Hoffman. Noone is "snivelling" over torture or "rationalizing" abortion. I have clear, ethical, un-emotional positions on both. You undoubtedly disagree, based on what you write, but that doesn't mean I arrived at my position through wishful star-gazing. If you ACTUALLY care to hear what I believe, I'm happy to share.
I'm pointing out that our torture is less extreme. Our enemies are still at least alive enough to bitch about how they're treated.
When did we start caring about how we treated our enemies, ESPECIALLY terrorists, who are not part of any country (No country will claim them), they target civilian aid workers, they don't wear uniform or obey Rules of Engagement.
....yes, that would be a great strategy if this were a video game and Barack Obama was a playable character. Unfortunately, the rest of us live in the real world, in which we started caring about how we treated our enemies a long time ago. Well, most of us did....
Again, WHY do we care about these thugs? Pregnant women reaching out to Marines who nobly/foolishly try to help her, she detonates herself, killing all the would-be heroes...A woman arranging 80 rapes to "recruit" more suicide-bombers...Thugs targeting foreign-aid workers, and even the "sacred" journalists (Although I'm not so sure that journalists aren't part of the problem)
We're making this too complicated. Those who complain about the treatment of prisoners miss the greater conundrum:
Why take prisoners at all? From Sunnis to Shiites to Somalians, prisoners will just end up making the enemy look more "sympathetic", short-memoried people forget what the scum DID to get there, and their hearts start bleeding for the CRIMINALS, rather than the VICTIMS!
I can't really explain to you "WHY" we care about how prisoners are treated--we just do. Some of us are humane, and others obviously aren't. You're of the crowd that likes to construct roundabout excuses and justifications for doing unethical things. I'm of the crowd that doesn't care what the prisoners did previously, or that the torture was "effective". In MY America, we don't f***ing torture. Period.
I agree, we shouldn't take prisoners. Kill them, so taxpayers don't have to pay for their upkeep...And the rest of the world doesn't bitch about the way we "mistreat" them!
I'm not sure how you can claim to "agree" that we shouldn't take prisoners when that's not anywhere close to anything I said. I said we shouldn't torture prisoners. Reading is a fundamental part of discussion.
We managed not to torture the domestic terrorists who did the OKC bombing in '95, but what's different between McVeigh & Nichols and the prisoners we kept in Cuba?
Oh, that's right, their skin color and religion.
Bigotry and racism, as usual, is at the root of this problem.
Are you saying we should NOT treat our own citizens any better than KNOWN enemies?
Or are you saying these aren't ENEMIES, but mere "criminals", and should be given that lesser punishment?
Also, neither "Moslem" nor "terrorist" are acknowledged races, so racism has nothing to do with it.
I grant you, there is a stereotype of Moslems as either terrorists, or FRIENDS with terrorists, but so far, they've not stopped the terrorists, so they must be trying to PROVE the stereotype!
I think you're got a career at Fox News ahead of you if you want it.. You've got down their patented method of making wholly fallacious and contradictory arguments actually sound legitimate.
I of course have got many more substantive points to make, but I can see that arguing via Youtube is kind of your "thing", while I've got neither the motivation nor the inclination to continue this, nor do I feel obligated to do so.
You started caring about your enemies when you signed the Geneva Convention. It's US law, so as long as you care about America, you care about it's commitments!
I would like to amend my earlier statement: Five of the terrorists ARE being claimed by China, BUT those 5 don't WANT to be freed, because China has a "reputation" for dealing with terrorists more expediently than America does.
It's fascinating that they bitch about being tortured by US, but the merest THREAT of being returned to China--UNHARMED--scares them that much!
No, under Article 2, part 3, it may apply if one of the combatants is one of the High Contracting Parties, BUT ONLY IF THE OTHER PARTY ACCEPTS AND APPLIES THE PROVISIONS THEREOF!
The terrorists have NOT held to the Convention, so we are not to be held to it either...As a lawyer, Obama should have found that loophole.
Although one of the Powers in conflict may not be a party to the present Convention, the Powers who are parties thereto shall remain bound by it in their mutual relations.
It's irrelevant if the other party is a signatory of the Geneva convention. This is in Article 2, and there is no part 3.
Although one of the Powers in conflict may not be a party to the present Convention, the Powers who are parties thereto shall remain bound by it in their mutual relations. They shall furthermore be bound by the Convention in relation to the said Power, if the latter accepts and applies the provisions thereof."
You're right, signatory status is irrelevant, BUT THE OTHER PARTY MUST OBEY THE PROVISIONS! The terrorists have CLEARLY violated the Convention on any number of occasions, so we are free!
That's easy: Just ask each thug what country they belong to. Then ask that country for confirmation. Even if that country DID send them, they'll probably disavow them, like say, Vietnam POWs?
Once that country denies them, that thug is ours to do with as we wish. I would vote for a public execution, rather than torture, but again, I am not in charge.
Im glad someone else notices the fault there or is it a case of the US now thinks their above UN protocol and dont have to abide by the GCIII in the humane treatment of Prisoners of War.
so if someone invaded your country and you decided to pick up a gun and defend your country, and you get captured from the invaders and get taken to a military facility, your saying that you classify as a terrorist?? because thats how it pretty much went man, it just wasn't terrorists who got captured, theere were also people who wanted to defend there home from bombs
"If cops come to my house...." Two problems. An invasion of a foreign country is an excursion into soveriegn territory and exceptions are made for irregular combatants defending their home. Secondly, ALL combatants "out of the fight" receive a basic minimum dignity. Third, some detainees were essentially kidnapped off of the streets of Italy, Germany and Canada and their connection to terrorism is speculative, and more like a criminal case. Denying THEM a trial is uncalled for.
And if you truly believe they're "civilians", who has been setting IEDs? Who has been shooting Americans? Surely you don't think THAT is an inside job too? If they want to kill Americans, they should expect Americans to kill back...And since Americans have better technology, our ability to kill back should be great enough to make them stop and think that America is NOT a fun prey.
Okay, when I elect terrorists to represent me in MY government, I'll start chastising them for their cruelty. In the meantime, lets have an adult conversation with some seriousness and stop charging at windmills.
I'm being completely serious. YOU are the one who started bullshitting about "bigotry" and "racism".
I must point out that people from other "cultures" are FAR more likely to kill Americans than those of our own culture.
Why? Because their "culture" encourages it, and ours DIScourages it.
McVeigh will never be allowed near fertilizer again, but any Moslem thug we release alive will be rearmed by his "culture" and sent after Americans again. It has happened before...and will probably again!
I am the one who started bullshitting about bigotry? I? I? Where did you study Arabic culture? Or is it Muslim culture? "Their" culture encourages violence? Its a shame that so many experts in "their" culture disagree with your simpliciity. You should teach them something with your special knowledge. What is your solution? Kill every Muslim? How do you plan to do this?
Taqiyyah, is the art of lying to the civilized world, even to the point of making treaties in bad faith.
Let's see, the Moslems' stated goal is to wipe out the Jewish state of Israel, and establish a worldwide Islamic Caliphate, right? Or are these only the extremists?
How can we tell the difference? THEY aren't telling. And, unless you share your psychic insight of which ones are extremists or not, we must punish all, right?
Really? How many Christians have hijacked airplanes and driven them into buildings? How many Christians want to create a worldwide empire like a bad 80s cartoon?
(Media empires notwithstanding.)
I agree that fundamentalist religion starts hatred on both sides, BUT without the assumed authority of a "God", what gives the leaders the authority to tell them what not to do? "Thou shalt not MURDER" (Some mistranslate that as "kill"), "Thou shalt not steal", and all that...
Xtianity has been the bloodest religion in all of history. It has bee used as a tool to unite the idiot masses. Today with xtianity in decline, Islam has become the religious bane of humanity.
The twerps and useless punks who would appease these animals have no fucking clue. Look at Islam in Great Britain and how the pussies are getting steam rolled.
How many Muslims have hijacked airplanes and driven them into buildings? 19? Maybe? Out of a billion? At most, there are 1 million "terrorists", and thats probably ridiculously high. That's point 1 % of the worldwide Muslim population. Young black commit a larger % of crimes than other groups within this country. Do you also advocate killing all young black men as a solution to this problem?
No, but I do believe that we should dismantle the Moslem Cult and Black America, the "systems" that push them INTO crime, then "protect" them by calling their accusers "racist" for pointing out truths like you just did with your "Blacks commit a larger % of crimes" bit.
Or did you miss how saying things like that about blacks, Moslems, and now Hispanics, is persecuted as "racist talk", while their "cultures" continue the ACTIONS that make Americans dislike those "cultures"?
There is part of human nature that takes gratification from doing damage. It is very ancient (biologically) and applies generally to use of environmental resources. Somehow it evolved to a more educated form and we call that "god/how great we are" compared to on whom/ where we are crapping. It's not dissimilar to regular life but with more rights to do damage for profit. Generally spoken cruelty has to do with Satan worship and/or war. Satan is "broad based" assertive, shamless, violent ect
Is there a link to the document? I would be interested in reading it.
Waterboarding=Torture, Torture=Illegal practices, Illegal practices=going to jail NO MATTER WHAT, Cheny deserves to rot, if not for the torture than for using made up "intelligence" produced by detainees being tortured to send soldiers to kill thousands of civilians for oil and cost the Americans 1000's more lives of soldiers, when he himself said in 1990 that they shouldn't do exactly what they did in Iraq.
Real torture is breaking bones, open wounds, starving rat eating them alive, electrocution, burning their body, torturing family members in front of them, keeping them alive with blood transfusion and many more awesome techniques.
Make all the funny names you like for it, its already set in US precident that tactics like waterboarding ARE torture. We've sent people to jail on war crimes for such actions.
The end point is that torture, in ALL its forms, is illegal. There are far better ways to get info out of people, on top of that.
tor·ture / ˈtôrchər/ • n. the action or practice of inflicting severe pain on someone as a punishment or to force them to do or say something, or for the pleasure of the person inflicting the pain.
"Real torture is breaking bones [etc]...What they did is effeminate torture."
"torture-the action or practice of inflicting severe pain on someone as a punishment or to force them to do or say something, or for the pleasure of the person inflicting the pain"
Ummm, so you don't see the problem in what you originally said? Both your Webster & Oxford quotes give perfect accounts of what waterboarding is.
For me part of growing up in the USA is torture. The reason kids don't do well in school, is the torturous nature of school. In a strong sense it is like day prison with desks. They'll destroy you if you complain. It's the way life sorts itself out, the agonized nature of people needing a reason for controlling other people through torture, should be obvious, but it's not. Think of it this way; if you don't torture, you will not be promoted.
Our empire is about to tank. We are one of the worst countries economically. We have a lot of enemies which we treated harshly and unethically. If we don't respect the law you think our enemies will?
The beauty of this whole torture issue is this: Some of the people that hate America got tortured and suffered horribly. The other people that hate America and ordered the torture (repukelicans) get to suffer too. It's a win-win, for liberals. I'll do my little happy dance now. Halleluyah.
My point is that most people just don't give a shit. And the way Republicans can so easily paint Democrats as pansy-ass wimps, we'd best see this issue for what it is: A LOSER! Don't forget the elections of 02 and 04.
The truth is that most people are not that sympathetic toward those trying to kill us. And God help us if America is attacked during Democrat led hearings.
Karl Rove is somewhere smiling every time we push this. But don't worry; President Obama wants no part of this.
Dude, we just can't win. In life we must show wisdom in chosing our battles. How long would our nation stand anyway if we were to suddenly become a pure-as-the-driven-snow society?
We'd be conquered fast. What you see in our culture that's so loathsome is just a reflection of the ugliness of a world run by human beings. We are a wicked lot; that's for sure.
I am not religious, but I do hope there is something better once this experiment is over. Most human suffering is so very unneccesary.
What you fail to realize is Obama opened the door by releasing those memos...now its out of his hands and in the justice department...soon the pressure will mount and despite even Obamas wishes...we may see this thing evolve into prosecutions.
hmm lets see...standing up for the rule of law...
Why do people write things like "End of story," as if that ends the discussion? its innane in a public forum.
I already responded to this "Obama knows better" nonsense in my last comment. It really isn't up to him in the end. There is a long history of the White House *not* messing with the Justice Department. In fact, thats quite taboo.
You just don't get it. Here's what's going to happen. They'll be a useless special committee or something, then everybody who's anybody will roundly condemn torture. Hand-wringers will snivel and moan before a report is issued condemning torture and blaming the Bush administration.
After that, we'll all pat ourselves on the back for being such good people unless we're attacked again. Then republicans will be re-elected to power.
What don't I "get?" Your opinion on the matter? Yeah, I just can't relate to someone who is willing to overlook the breaking of our LAW for a political angle.
There is no "peace" in a country that allows its own leaders to run roughshod on its laws. Torture of "terrorists" today, torture of our own citizens tomorrow.
Torture is not a deterrence or a weapon, it is an action.
By "retaliation," you mean "revenge." This is never a good reason to do ANYTHING, much less torture someone, stripping them of all their rights as human beings.
Further, its already been proven that our torturing only encourages other countries to mistreat OUR people. North Korea responded to questions about our 2 journalists safety with "We're not Guantanamo." North Korea!
Of course I mean revenge, and what "rights" are you talking about? Exemple: kalik sheikh mohammad is not a human nor he should have any rights. Those people preach killing civilians, give them what they want. Fight fire with fire.
And NK rhetoric should not be used as an exemple for anything. And please tell me how they could mistreat our POWs even more? I though beheading people was as high as it gets.
The KKK still preaches hatred to all but whites, yet they are allowed to exist in the US due to inherent and legal freedoms.
Kalik, if captured, will be held accountable for HIS crimes, and tried in a court of law. Torture *still* won't come into the equation, because we should hold ourselves to a higher ideal than his own, and are legally mandated to do just that. An eye for an eye is not an appropriate response.
NK rhetoric? I can't use their statement as an example? Absurd.
"kalik sheikh mohammad is not a human nor he should have any rights" How do you know. 'Innocent until proven guilty' is not just to protecte the innocent. It's to find out the truth. Cheney tortured KSM to PREVENT the truth from coming out.
And I would love to see the justification for torturing an individual when its highly likely that individual has no knowledge of, and was not involved in, the mistreatment of our own people.
You're going to retaliate against this individual for something he didn't do or know about? Yeah, great response there... *rolls eyes*
The law has NEVER been the law, and America was built upon breaking laws as we fucked everybody out of everything to build this nation. We can't suddenly start comporting ourselves as pure as the driven snow.
How 'bout this? Voters are voters, like them or not. They give power and remove it. Damn them all!
I have not meant to imply that you are wrong; it's just that what's right get's no political traction; therefore, nothing will come of this except cowardly demagoguery. Watch!
Your last statement is likely correct, though I hate to admit it. ^_^
Though I would contest that we have over 200 years of precident with our law, and our society is *very* influenced by legal precident. I'm not talking about how the US was built, or the ills of said actions, but about the foundation built by the founders after the US was already established (not in name, of course).
And it isn't about being "pure" either. Its holding to ideals, for the sake of our people and others.
They should be. If not its going against the human nature. Socialized groups fighting each others for territory or food is the basement of who we are as a race.
You're correct, it is the "basement." I prefer to be in the attic though, since it has a window. Lots more fresh air, and I don't have to stare at that shadow on the wall for eternity.
That we have been violent in the past is no justification for being violent now.
Necessity will eventually drive you in the basement, either to do your laundry (torturing people) or to get some frozen steaks (protecting your foreign assets). Or to get your shotgun in order to shoot a crackhead that is trying to rob you or harm you (wars or preemptive strikes). ^_^
The simple solution would be to put your washer/dryer up in the 'normal' part of the house, not to expose clean clothes to the dirty basement. Also, I keep my .45 in the drawer by my bed. Most crackheads break in at night, after all, and won't stick around if I ask them to let me take a moment to run to the basement to get my gun.
All that aside... are analogies about a basement really all you have? How about we address the studies/experts that prove/say torture is ineffective/unnecessary?
I didn't say you said it was efficient, I said it *wasn't* efficient. You made it perfectly clear the only reason you condone torture is the "vengeance/revenge" factor.
At any rate, I feel I'm kicking a dead horse now. You can make all the trips to the basement you like, but don't be surprised when the Feds kick in your door and arrest you for breaking the law.
Anyone who chooses to "defend our country" by joining an agency that murders other people... seems... to me... a little unstable.
bttrflykiss7701 11 months ago
I think they didn't torture the nazi's because the nazi's where white.
And these 'terrorists' (only a few of which are ACTUAL terrorists, and the rest a mix of people who are completely innocent but just unlucky, or people who simply are resisting US influence in their country (but wouldn't go after the US itself.) are brown.
I think that so IS a factor.
That and the repubs are EVIL. Not quite sure how people miss this obvious fact so much.
Shavarnarak 11 months ago
Republicans love torture. Not because they think they are protecting america, but because they ENJOY doing it. They're an evil bunch.
Tradd9 1 year ago
@theRekcabofD no, he is trying to stop it
lordnuck33 1 year ago
The carrot, not the stick (except with the republicans)
Jussimania 1 year ago
00:01 to skip add.
StuartHaitchXbox 1 year ago
hopefully someday the worlds jails will be a safe haven for terrorist
SadCarnage1224 1 year ago
I thought Obama was president and not Bush, does this guy remeber who is in office?
2000hauntmaster 1 year ago
My god, stop torturing =_= but then again, what can I myself do about it?
On a different note, this show is really interesting XD whether I agree or not is a different story, but it's still interesting
IxYamikoxA 2 years ago
tortue is the worst thing that you can do to a nother person. i think killing is more exsepted then tortue. sick
mypreciouz 2 years ago
Bringing up WWII as a beacon of better morals and ethics? Really? Nukes weren't even the worst of it. But all in all, *I* think it was mostly justified...
Also, you kind of have to be naive to believe that 'enhanced interrogation techniques' weren't used. Just because there was no media (and youtube) like today, doesn't mean everything was perfect.
This nostalgic, idealizing view of the past is usually a fundie thing. What a shame.
SoftwareEngineer3 2 years ago
my 1st enlistment in the Corps I went to PI then Memphis Naval Air Station for helo class then NC for SERE school. while at the last we under went severe stuff to simulate POW status. i almsot didn't get thru that course. and IT was run by "friendly forces" i was not water boarded. i saw that over seas and saw ppl die. no one was charged of course. no one who hasn't done SERE school has the right to an opinion supporting this barbarity. but i'll gladly water board YOU so you know!
FellowTraveller 2 years ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
Someone should waterboard these Cocksuckers.
Then throw a plugged in toaster on them.
If these Pricks don't like America,they can fuck off back to the sandbox, and bitch there.
See where that gets them.
Cunts.
Conan568 2 years ago
your mind is filled with hate, isnt it? you fucking irrelevant moron.
AllWalksofLife 2 years ago 2
This comment has received too many negative votes show
These Bastards come to our countries then do their best to destroy them.
If you had half a brain you'd see that.
Hater or Bigot, what a Liberal calls someone they don't agree with, because they have no facts no truth and no clue.
Go drink your fucking Kool-ade.
Conan568 2 years ago
Someone should water board you? Retard the US invaded Iraq after blowing up there own twin towers, get over your hypocrysy, you zionazi loving freak. IU wouldn't be surpised if all the torutre thses soldiers and Zionazi freaks like you are put into something that even puts the holocaust to shame in the next life with Satan himself to accmpany you.
Rember Islam is the fastest growing reliigon especailly amongst women whichis why a fag liek you doesn't like it.
hbk711x 2 years ago
Thank you for the morning laugh.
A Truther calling me a retard is absolutely hilarious.
Satan is exactly who Muslim's worship.
Conan568 2 years ago
And a pansy bigot like you caliing anyone else gay is funny too, how are the gay marriages going in the candaian church you hypocrite freak.
Truth is you being a retard is sad not funny which is why you dodn't even understand Islam is the only truth against the ignorant people who take Satan fro a friend such as you bigot homos and you hypoxcrites.
hbk711x 2 years ago 2
3:48
petkol 2 years ago
I wish that we could bring Bush and company to justice.
One problem though:
If we try a past president for legitimate reasons, someone 10-20 years down the line will find a way to use this as precedent to try a past president for illegitimate reasons.
Now, putting Bush and company before the UN...
That is something that I am in favor for. After all, they violated the articles of Geneva Conventions. It would be very appropriate for them to answer to an international system of law.
masterbuilder2009 2 years ago
Tell me why you will try and protect these scumbags, but you won't even protect babies born alive after a failed abortion.
dallas1493 2 years ago
excellent vid, torture doesn't get credible information. personally, i think these people should be tried for war crimes.
no doubt the bush administration was sensitive to another attack, and felt these tactics were warranted, but it was a worthless tactic that did more harm than good. a constant theme of the bush administration.
tomitstube 2 years ago 8
Somehow this tread has drifted off topic....
The end result of the Torture policy review will be a revised interrogation policy which the CIA,FBI,Law Enforcement and DOD will be required to follow.
Violations of the policy will be answered in a court of law or military court-martial.
People who oppose this are also opposed to the U.S. constitution and its protections.
OperationTailGunner 2 years ago 5
Are beheadings acceptable? It's not torture. I understand the outrage with torture but I don't understand the lack of outrage at our enemies. This shouldn't be a political argument. We'll all lose.
bootlegpreacher 2 years ago
Behadings and other war-crimes are NOT acceptable, whats why we try them in a court and if found guilty they usually get the death penalty (Nuremburg trials etc)
When we do it, we lose our credibility to try others for the same offense....which in the Islamic world says everything we are about is just Bullshit. Do as we say not as we do.
The proponents of war and torture are found in the War Lobby in Washinton. Most of them are chicken hawks who never served a day in uniform.
OperationTailGunner 2 years ago 4
The lack of outrage at our enemies? We're at war with them, we're killing them. How much more outrage do we need?
ItsDubs 2 years ago
Bush-Cheney consulted with Alberto Gonzales to see just how far they could go with torture and all other matters relating to the Constitution...
They have no remorse for doing so do this day...
OperationTailGunner 2 years ago
Why would they have remorse for consulting with a judge?
bootlegpreacher 2 years ago
The judge was in name only...in reality he was a lap dog for Bush Cheney. Remember the separation of powers outlined in the constitution? The Judicial branch does not take orders from the executive branch (President) The founding fathers were very smart to create this system.
OperationTailGunner 2 years ago
With a new judge to be nominated soon, I wish that were the case. Lap dog judges are being openly sought out by the current administration. I don't know much about Gonzalez but I don't doubt what you say. It's just as important now as it was then.
bootlegpreacher 2 years ago
With the current freedom of the press and Faux news, I am certain any new judicial nominee will get "grilled" to our satifaction before being confirmed.
I remember that Bush used some rather unsavory tactics to push his judicial picks through the system.
OperationTailGunner 2 years ago
What worries me is that no one is discussing actual judicial qualifications. It's all about race, gender, financial background, etc... Fox news will certainly grill' em but the whole discussion is way off topic. The word empathy is being thrown around. That's the Dem version of the Rep abortion card. It's a distraction to get us to fight each other rather than watching Washington. Empathy is a quality for representatives, not supreme court judges.
bootlegpreacher 2 years ago
lol... i have no idea who you are replying to but... rofl! worst argument ever.
ambientdiscord 2 years ago
by the way.....my grandfather who was a Tuskegee airman could tell you how they treated the Nazis, because they treated them better than he was because he was black.......forget about he was fighting for our country......think this was liberals kicking black soldiers off of trains, or out of eating places so that the Nazi's can use them.........Dem or Rep they were the same type of people who are running the Republcan party now.....
prideventures 2 years ago
remember that before they were, (Bush), saying that a few bad apples were doing these things, and were they not convicted?...........the guards?.........now the story is not that this was a couple of rogue soldiers but a policy....now the story is that they were successful in getting "information".....but they will not tell us what information......sounds like how the reason for invading Iraq kept changing.........how can people support this because those that did it were in their party....SICK
prideventures 2 years ago
I'm shocked, a TURK givin a sermon AGAINST torture? Silly, bastard, torture is being skinned alive, head chopped off with dull sword, nails ripped off, bones broke! Come on TURK, your culture wrote the book on TORTURE! Fkin, hypocrite!
Rainman0422 2 years ago
rainman, are you saying the Cenk is responsible for crimes committed by members of his ethnic group?
KataVideo 2 years ago
A better way than this "war" and legal gamesmanship, would be to takeover the oilfields, and LET the terrorists do whatever they wanted, using up their materiel, and without petrodollars to rearm, they'd have to poke at the civilized world with sticks and stones, rather than AK47s and C4!
You keep saying that "As you act, so shall you be treated"; let's apply it to the terrorists!
They are not defending their home, they are defending their disobedience...Like the wackos in Waco!
EPGAH 2 years ago
I understand what you mean, and I'm not suggesting that we don't punish them. It's just that the thought of torture bothers me. I'd hate to compare this to the Salem witch trials, because I'm sure the methods we use are much more refined, but they wound up making a lot of so called "witches" fess up under torture, when actually those being interogated just said anything they could to make the pain stop, which included incriminating themselves.
lololeela 2 years ago
Ok, but by the arguments the liberals already used, if they didn't hate us before, they do now.
Also, as someone else brought up, these were the scum their nation actually GAVE to us. At worst, they are the terrorists that were stupid enough to get caught by the local law-enforcers. At best, they are a random emptying of Iraq's jails and alleyways, so WE deal with their criminals.
Why are they being treated better than the terrorists treat our soldiers?
Don't torture, just execute and record!
EPGAH 2 years ago
Call me an idealist, but how are we supposed to change the attitudes of our enemies toward us when we sink to such low levels? If they see that we treat our EPOWs fairly, it seems to me that we could not only get better information, but change some of their minds about us. Instead, we create more enemies by such inhumane treatments.
lololeela 2 years ago
No, as long as we keep waggling our fingers in their faces like a chiding parent, and never REALLY punish them, then like a spoiled child, they'll learn they can beg off punishment.
Sometimes, a disobedient child NEEDS to be punished, rather than a "stern talking-to"
Iraq violated Kuwait's sovereignty, violated UN ceasefires 17 times, and disobeyed direct orders from US and UN.
Then their "brave" terrorists pretend to be "civilians" (with AK47s) to avoid punishment. How is that dignified?
EPGAH 2 years ago
It is reassuring, however, that Cenk watches Fox. I guess if you tell a reporter to report something, they will do it (to use his analogy about attorneys) but clearly, he does subscribe to the notions of Fox News.
bruzzones2000 2 years ago
1. Terrorists rcvd the procedure during very limited times as done with U.S. military, with medical staff present. The terrorists were not treated any differently than our own military are treated during their training sessions.
bruzzones2000 2 years ago
KSM wasn't waterboarded 183 times. That is a lie. KSM was not waterboarded 183 times. Water was poured on him 183 times. Policy approved by the US Sen Intel Committee allowed 12 min of pours per day. Pours averaged 7 to 30 secs by policy. If you gave "a damn" about the facts, to use your terms, then report them, not fabricate or twist them.
bruzzones2000 2 years ago
Also, can you guys clear up something else for me? Assuming my history book isn't a TOTAL fabrication, America cleared most of Europe of German aggression, AND bombed Japan until they surrendered in 4 years (1941-1945)
So how is it that clearing IRAQ, a much smaller area, of Moslem terrorists, has taken 8 years?
And it can't be because of squeamishness over casualties, as the casualties on BOTH sides of WWII were MUCH higher!
Has America gotten WEAKER in 60 years?
EPGAH 2 years ago
i want proof.
h0k13 2 years ago
Folks, if you learn one thing here let it be this: You will be terrorized exactly as long as you tolerate it.
We won't win this war by SETTING examples, we'll win by MAKING examples. Make them afraid to attack any American, EVER...Or at least until the next Moslem uprising...
EPGAH 2 years ago
ya lets stoop down to terrorist levels. good idea!
Lukeskor 2 years ago
Well, do you want US to be scared of THEM, or THEM to be scared of US?
After all, we have never wiped out the Moslem cult at any of the junctures we had a chance...the 12th century, the Barbary pirates, etc.
We keep letting the infection regrow, stronger and more resistant!
EPGAH 2 years ago
do we need to torture them for them to be scared? these guys blow themselves up. they want to die for there religion.
and make sure you say "extremist muslims" cause not all muslims are crazy psycho paths who want everyone to die.
Lukeskor 2 years ago
Ok, I think we're on two different wavelengths here: I say "kill", and you hear "torture"...
Yes, they don't fear their own deaths.
As to "extremists"...How do you know which are the extremists, and how do you know the rest aren't quietly rooting for the terrorists to win?
Show me a large, CREDIBLE faction that is HELPING Americans root out and destroy the terrorists!
Hell, show me a faction that's telling the terrorists to stand down and shut up!
EPGAH 2 years ago
alright let me get the american phone book and call everyone in the US , ask if there muslim and if they support terrorists.
yes muslims who have nothing to do with terrorism, who most likely immigrated here from a shitty country, root for the people that wanna destroy the country they live in/immigrated to.
how can you tell the difference? hmm lets see the muslim doesnt say intolerant hateful things and doesnt blow up buildings.
this muslim says hateful remarks and promotes violence.
Lukeskor 2 years ago
I went to the local mosque, their Imam says that the infidels must be destroyed from within, America must fall, etc. I call the cops, and turns out that's NOT hate speech! Later, Rev Wright gains infamy for just saying "God Damn America"...Who knew!
But again, they were NOT saying that terrorists are bad, they seemed to be calling the "faithful" to destroy Americans!
So is it only hate-speech if Americans call for the downfall of some other group?
Please clarify definitions for me.
EPGAH 2 years ago
not at all. yes some muslims hate this place. (actually they hate any place that isnt islam).
it isnt hate speech though... if i burn a flag, i shouldnt be jailed. i didnt hurt anyone/threat anyone and if i did it in a safe enviroment, than i didnt endanger anyone else. therefore its free. they can hate america as much as they want but until they threaten or actually commit crimes, there free under our constitution.
i dont like it either but free speech goes both ways.
Lukeskor 2 years ago
Maybe, but remember, Moslems don't respect free speech, although it benefits them directly as you mentioned. In England, they got "Three Little Pigs" banned, because it "offends" them, and here, they have succeeded in getting the Ten Suggestions (Commandments is too strong a word) removed from public places, they got "So Help Me God" removed from court swear-ins...And got a few levels removed from Hitman videogame, but that's minor
What about OUR free speech?
EPGAH 2 years ago
your right. muslims need to either get over it or leave.i completely agree with you. we need to respect there right, and they need to respect ours.
Lukeskor 2 years ago
Yes...Oddly, Australia, of all countries, had the balls to tell the Imams that if they couldn't abide by the laws and customs, that they should clear out!
Why is AUSTRALIA standing up for itself, but not AMERICA?
America LETS them get away with this, and basically, we'll get treated as poorly as we LET others treat us!
EPGAH 2 years ago
That, BTW, is why I think we should clear-cut the Moslem cult in the countries that attack us, rather than worrying about "offending" THE ENEMY, or whatever. Force them back into remission, like you would with any other cancer...
EPGAH 2 years ago
LOL!
I love these guys. The Nazis were the best example, they gave us so much misinformation that our intelligence was screwed over. The Nazi's gave out so much false information because they knew living as an American POW was a hell of alot better then being capture by the Soviets. So the lied and spewed out so much BS that the CIA gave them protection. So, not torturing gives the same amount of results, if not worse, then torturing.
OmnipotentDivinity 2 years ago
Why doesn't this fuck-face mention that Pelosi and a bunch of other democrats knew and supported these techniques?
srt4racer099 2 years ago
classic right wing technique, Change The Subject.
oh, and and most left wingies dont like pelosi.
WHYCANTIFINDONE 2 years ago
A fine thing, America has to fight a bunch of savages, without help from most of the detractors, but WE have to play by the "rules"...Who's going to make THEM play by the "rules"?
EPGAH 2 years ago
Read Article 4.1.2 in the GCIII.
Halafang 2 years ago
So when is the Bush administration going to be charged for warcrimes ?? combatants who are hors de combat (out of the fight) due to wounds, detention, or any other cause shall in all circumstances be treated humanely, including prohibition of outrages upon personal dignity, in particular humiliating and degrading treatment. Id Suggest the US reads on the GCIII otherwise known as the third geneva convention on the treatment of prisoners of war....
Halafang 2 years ago
Alternately, let's turn these animals over to Sheriff Joe, and let them WORK off their debt to humanity...And return the 5 Chinese terrorists to China, as a Sign of Good Faith!
EPGAH 2 years ago
EPGAH,
.. hope you get captured and tortured by the Taliban ..
milkgodnl 2 years ago
See, that's my point: The enemy already captures and tortures and kills...We should just skip to killing. And OD there had a better point: "living as an American POW was a hell of alot better"
We need to make life hell for our prisoners, not a condition devoutly to be wished!
EPGAH 2 years ago
Besides, if we do our job right, there won't be any Taliban left alive to threaten Americans!
EPGAH 2 years ago
You know, though...Since America outsources everything else, why not outsource our terrorists too? China can do a MUCH better job on them than we can, and some of the terrorists are already scared of China!
The bad news, it'll result in MORE unemployment in America, this time in our penal system...But sacrifices must be made in wartime, right? ;)
EPGAH 2 years ago
I wound't wish anyone to go through something like that, but he just might be an exception. :-/
Haven't seen someone as ignorant in a long time.
rustyrusky 2 years ago
If these "techniques" are not torture, then the obvious question is then why don't we use them in our everyday law enforcement? Waterboard all US civilian suspects/prisoners when needing information.
climbercaver 2 years ago
From the start of this outbreak it was clear that this was not a natural emergence of a virus. Pig virus from three different continents, an avian virus, and human virus. How does one catch a swine flu from a pig that has traveled to three different continents?
paulkielsmithdotcom 2 years ago
8:37 pay close attention here. the bush administration IS guilty of war crimes. how is it that information like this can be made public and people are not going to trial? the only difference between politicians like bush and cheney and bosses in organized crime? they are able to gain public support for their crimes by appealing the the prejudices of the weak minded and the greedy.
purplejugnut 2 years ago
To prosecute Bush administration officials would be political suicide for Democrats. There is no traction with the American people fo this.
And if we are attacked during public hearings, forget-about-it. Republicans will be back in power. President Obama knows this, so expect his administration to have no involvement.
I predict a toothless investigation followed by a scolding report and a bunch of whining and sniveling demogougery.
And yes, Republicans will love you for it.
toldyousohaha 2 years ago
untrue. the majority of the population wants to see an inquiry into this. if laws were broken (They were), there needs to be an application of justice.
themightylex 2 years ago
how much you want to bet?
paulkielsmithdotcom 2 years ago
You might be right, toldyousohaha, which says more about the spineless, selfish, short-sighted, cruel character of the American people than anything of real ethical substance. Like most humans, we're poor at acknowledging how fucked up we really are.
eirefrance 2 years ago
As opposed to the spineless, selfish, short-sighted, cruel character of the thugs trying to destroy us, right?
As to trial, would it be effective to try each thug as we get them, and watch as the Moslem support-network rallies to "save" them from our legal system--Look up CAIR's scandals--Or would it be better to wait until we've got the whole set?
Gotta Catch'Em'All!
EPGAH 2 years ago
Dude, the world is fucked up. Always has been. Man's inhumanity to man is well documented. If America would suddenly start to act like a nation of pussies, we'd be conquered fast.
Think of your own words: "...the spineless, selfish, short-sighted, cruel character of________[FILL IN BLANK] Any non-conquered culture in any point in history would fit nicely. It explains why we snivel over torturing terrorists, then rationalize abortion over 3000 times daily.
That's a huge disconnect.
toldyousohaha 2 years ago
And recognizing that weakness and railing against it has been the role of contrarians for millenia, from Cato to Abbie Hoffman. Noone is "snivelling" over torture or "rationalizing" abortion. I have clear, ethical, un-emotional positions on both. You undoubtedly disagree, based on what you write, but that doesn't mean I arrived at my position through wishful star-gazing. If you ACTUALLY care to hear what I believe, I'm happy to share.
eirefrance 2 years ago
It's a nice place for people the world over to share. It's great that we can communicate in these times like never before in human history.
Maybe one day man will find a way to love one another. Who knows?
toldyousohaha 2 years ago
I don't get it.
Waterboarding isn't torture. It's also 100% effective.
Hell, we used it on witches throughout the middle ages. How bad can it be?
spoolworm 2 years ago
you can torture some ppl,
by claiming; they won`t get a sip of champagne
for the next 3 years.
the more you put on them, the more they`ll get used to.
Realizalize 2 years ago
Our "extreme" torture=Dunking an enemy's head in water.
Their "extreme" torture=Cutting off an enemy's head and mailing the head and/or the video home to the victim's family!
Why does noone slam the terrorists for THEIR torture practices?
EPGAH 2 years ago
LOL! Are you serious? You characterize simulated drowning as dunking an enemy's head in water???
I've heard some cowardly justifications in my day, but this one takes the cake.
PS, Yes the terrorists are wrong for their torture practices? Does that make you happy, that the US government behaves like terrorists?
johnedwards1968 2 years ago
I'm pointing out that our torture is less extreme. Our enemies are still at least alive enough to bitch about how they're treated.
When did we start caring about how we treated our enemies, ESPECIALLY terrorists, who are not part of any country (No country will claim them), they target civilian aid workers, they don't wear uniform or obey Rules of Engagement.
We should just crush the enemies!
EPGAH 2 years ago
"We should just crush the enemies! "
....yes, that would be a great strategy if this were a video game and Barack Obama was a playable character. Unfortunately, the rest of us live in the real world, in which we started caring about how we treated our enemies a long time ago. Well, most of us did....
me213516 2 years ago
Again, WHY do we care about these thugs? Pregnant women reaching out to Marines who nobly/foolishly try to help her, she detonates herself, killing all the would-be heroes...A woman arranging 80 rapes to "recruit" more suicide-bombers...Thugs targeting foreign-aid workers, and even the "sacred" journalists (Although I'm not so sure that journalists aren't part of the problem)
We're making this too complicated. Those who complain about the treatment of prisoners miss the greater conundrum:
EPGAH 2 years ago
Why take prisoners at all? From Sunnis to Shiites to Somalians, prisoners will just end up making the enemy look more "sympathetic", short-memoried people forget what the scum DID to get there, and their hearts start bleeding for the CRIMINALS, rather than the VICTIMS!
EPGAH 2 years ago
The greater conundrum is your twisted logic.
I can't really explain to you "WHY" we care about how prisoners are treated--we just do. Some of us are humane, and others obviously aren't. You're of the crowd that likes to construct roundabout excuses and justifications for doing unethical things. I'm of the crowd that doesn't care what the prisoners did previously, or that the torture was "effective". In MY America, we don't f***ing torture. Period.
me213516 2 years ago
I agree, we shouldn't take prisoners. Kill them, so taxpayers don't have to pay for their upkeep...And the rest of the world doesn't bitch about the way we "mistreat" them!
EPGAH 2 years ago
I'm not sure how you can claim to "agree" that we shouldn't take prisoners when that's not anywhere close to anything I said. I said we shouldn't torture prisoners. Reading is a fundamental part of discussion.
We managed not to torture the domestic terrorists who did the OKC bombing in '95, but what's different between McVeigh & Nichols and the prisoners we kept in Cuba?
Oh, that's right, their skin color and religion.
Bigotry and racism, as usual, is at the root of this problem.
me213516 2 years ago
Are you saying we should NOT treat our own citizens any better than KNOWN enemies?
Or are you saying these aren't ENEMIES, but mere "criminals", and should be given that lesser punishment?
Also, neither "Moslem" nor "terrorist" are acknowledged races, so racism has nothing to do with it.
I grant you, there is a stereotype of Moslems as either terrorists, or FRIENDS with terrorists, but so far, they've not stopped the terrorists, so they must be trying to PROVE the stereotype!
EPGAH 2 years ago
If they want to be treated as legitimate soldiers, then they have to put their big boy pants on and start acting like it:
· Wear a uniform that distinguishes them from civilians
· Attack American soldiers if they so choose, BUT accept retaliatory strikes without complaint.
· Stop hiding behind civilians, or in civilian structures.
· Stop attacking aid-workers or media.
If the above conditions were met, they'd be an army, but as of now, they're just terrorists.
EPGAH 2 years ago
I think you're got a career at Fox News ahead of you if you want it.. You've got down their patented method of making wholly fallacious and contradictory arguments actually sound legitimate.
I of course have got many more substantive points to make, but I can see that arguing via Youtube is kind of your "thing", while I've got neither the motivation nor the inclination to continue this, nor do I feel obligated to do so.
So congratulations, you win at the internet.
me213516 2 years ago 2
Also, if you want to bring domestic terrorism into this:
· "Travis" Milton, black thug, shot 4 police, and was killed in turn. If he hadn't acted like a rabid dog, he might not have been put down like one.
· A killer, believed to be Vietnamese, shot 13 LEGAL immigrants, then himself. Taliban claimed responsibility for it.
· Virginia Tech: Seng-Hui Cho killed 32 people and wounded "many" others before committing suicide.
As to McVeigh, he had already renounced the American Government...
EPGAH 2 years ago
the talibanz trying to take over pakistan now if they take over pakistan, nuclear weapons will b in the wrong handz.
sunnyahsan1 2 years ago
You started caring about your enemies when you signed the Geneva Convention. It's US law, so as long as you care about America, you care about it's commitments!
johnedwards1968 2 years ago
The Geneva convention, as I read it, only applies to SOLDIERS. Terrorists are not soldiers, because no country will claim them.
I am surprised that Obama hasn't pointed that out yet...
EPGAH 2 years ago
I would like to amend my earlier statement: Five of the terrorists ARE being claimed by China, BUT those 5 don't WANT to be freed, because China has a "reputation" for dealing with terrorists more expediently than America does.
It's fascinating that they bitch about being tortured by US, but the merest THREAT of being returned to China--UNHARMED--scares them that much!
EPGAH 2 years ago
You read it wrong! The Geneva convention applies to prisoners of war! Bush had clearly declared the war on terror, and therefore these are POW's.
I'm also surprised Obama hasn't pointed THIS out yet! It's a sign of moral weakness at best!
johnedwards1968 2 years ago
No, under Article 2, part 3, it may apply if one of the combatants is one of the High Contracting Parties, BUT ONLY IF THE OTHER PARTY ACCEPTS AND APPLIES THE PROVISIONS THEREOF!
The terrorists have NOT held to the Convention, so we are not to be held to it either...As a lawyer, Obama should have found that loophole.
EPGAH 2 years ago
Although one of the Powers in conflict may not be a party to the present Convention, the Powers who are parties thereto shall remain bound by it in their mutual relations.
It's irrelevant if the other party is a signatory of the Geneva convention. This is in Article 2, and there is no part 3.
johnedwards1968 2 years ago
Although one of the Powers in conflict may not be a party to the present Convention, the Powers who are parties thereto shall remain bound by it in their mutual relations. They shall furthermore be bound by the Convention in relation to the said Power, if the latter accepts and applies the provisions thereof."
You're right, signatory status is irrelevant, BUT THE OTHER PARTY MUST OBEY THE PROVISIONS! The terrorists have CLEARLY violated the Convention on any number of occasions, so we are free!
EPGAH 2 years ago
Unfortunately, you have to prove that each individual prisoner has broken the Geneva convention, as they are not part of a national body.
You're not very good at finding these loopholes! lol
johnedwards1968 2 years ago
That's easy: Just ask each thug what country they belong to. Then ask that country for confirmation. Even if that country DID send them, they'll probably disavow them, like say, Vietnam POWs?
Once that country denies them, that thug is ours to do with as we wish. I would vote for a public execution, rather than torture, but again, I am not in charge.
EPGAH 2 years ago
Im glad someone else notices the fault there or is it a case of the US now thinks their above UN protocol and dont have to abide by the GCIII in the humane treatment of Prisoners of War.
Halafang 2 years ago
so if someone invaded your country and you decided to pick up a gun and defend your country, and you get captured from the invaders and get taken to a military facility, your saying that you classify as a terrorist?? because thats how it pretty much went man, it just wasn't terrorists who got captured, theere were also people who wanted to defend there home from bombs
Hkhan23 2 years ago 2
If cops come to my house and I pick up a gun against them, I wouldn't expect to be taken alive.
Hence the old cliche, "You'll never take me alive, Copper!"
If my group had taken and dismembered some cops--ON CAMERA--I would expect to be treated in kind...Do Unto Others...
EPGAH 2 years ago
"If cops come to my house...." Two problems. An invasion of a foreign country is an excursion into soveriegn territory and exceptions are made for irregular combatants defending their home. Secondly, ALL combatants "out of the fight" receive a basic minimum dignity. Third, some detainees were essentially kidnapped off of the streets of Italy, Germany and Canada and their connection to terrorism is speculative, and more like a criminal case. Denying THEM a trial is uncalled for.
eirefrance 2 years ago
And if you truly believe they're "civilians", who has been setting IEDs? Who has been shooting Americans? Surely you don't think THAT is an inside job too? If they want to kill Americans, they should expect Americans to kill back...And since Americans have better technology, our ability to kill back should be great enough to make them stop and think that America is NOT a fun prey.
EPGAH 2 years ago
Okay, when I elect terrorists to represent me in MY government, I'll start chastising them for their cruelty. In the meantime, lets have an adult conversation with some seriousness and stop charging at windmills.
eirefrance 2 years ago
I'm being completely serious. YOU are the one who started bullshitting about "bigotry" and "racism".
I must point out that people from other "cultures" are FAR more likely to kill Americans than those of our own culture.
Why? Because their "culture" encourages it, and ours DIScourages it.
McVeigh will never be allowed near fertilizer again, but any Moslem thug we release alive will be rearmed by his "culture" and sent after Americans again. It has happened before...and will probably again!
EPGAH 2 years ago
I am the one who started bullshitting about bigotry? I? I? Where did you study Arabic culture? Or is it Muslim culture? "Their" culture encourages violence? Its a shame that so many experts in "their" culture disagree with your simpliciity. You should teach them something with your special knowledge. What is your solution? Kill every Muslim? How do you plan to do this?
eirefrance 2 years ago
What is jihad, if not a call to violence?
Taqiyyah, is the art of lying to the civilized world, even to the point of making treaties in bad faith.
Let's see, the Moslems' stated goal is to wipe out the Jewish state of Israel, and establish a worldwide Islamic Caliphate, right? Or are these only the extremists?
How can we tell the difference? THEY aren't telling. And, unless you share your psychic insight of which ones are extremists or not, we must punish all, right?
EPGAH 2 years ago
I detest the religion of Islam. It is a cancer on humanity I'd love to see removed.
And Christianity is no better. Fundy religion does nothing but seed hate and spread lies.
toldyousohaha 2 years ago
Really? How many Christians have hijacked airplanes and driven them into buildings? How many Christians want to create a worldwide empire like a bad 80s cartoon?
(Media empires notwithstanding.)
I agree that fundamentalist religion starts hatred on both sides, BUT without the assumed authority of a "God", what gives the leaders the authority to tell them what not to do? "Thou shalt not MURDER" (Some mistranslate that as "kill"), "Thou shalt not steal", and all that...
Who would obey a HUMAN?
EPGAH 2 years ago
Xtianity has been the bloodest religion in all of history. It has bee used as a tool to unite the idiot masses. Today with xtianity in decline, Islam has become the religious bane of humanity.
The twerps and useless punks who would appease these animals have no fucking clue. Look at Islam in Great Britain and how the pussies are getting steam rolled.
Islamists have no respect for pussies.
toldyousohaha 2 years ago
How many Muslims have hijacked airplanes and driven them into buildings? 19? Maybe? Out of a billion? At most, there are 1 million "terrorists", and thats probably ridiculously high. That's point 1 % of the worldwide Muslim population. Young black commit a larger % of crimes than other groups within this country. Do you also advocate killing all young black men as a solution to this problem?
eirefrance 2 years ago
No, but I do believe that we should dismantle the Moslem Cult and Black America, the "systems" that push them INTO crime, then "protect" them by calling their accusers "racist" for pointing out truths like you just did with your "Blacks commit a larger % of crimes" bit.
Or did you miss how saying things like that about blacks, Moslems, and now Hispanics, is persecuted as "racist talk", while their "cultures" continue the ACTIONS that make Americans dislike those "cultures"?
EPGAH 2 years ago
If this happened in another country.. the united states would be the first to stand up and start ranting about how bad it is.
this is torture and murder in some cases.
bluemangos 2 years ago 2
Soft walls and collars to prevent whiplash... "humanitarian" torture? :P
Fred13B 2 years ago
There is part of human nature that takes gratification from doing damage. It is very ancient (biologically) and applies generally to use of environmental resources. Somehow it evolved to a more educated form and we call that "god/how great we are" compared to on whom/ where we are crapping. It's not dissimilar to regular life but with more rights to do damage for profit. Generally spoken cruelty has to do with Satan worship and/or war. Satan is "broad based" assertive, shamless, violent ect
hypnofan35 2 years ago
Is there a link to the document? I would be interested in reading it.
Waterboarding=Torture, Torture=Illegal practices, Illegal practices=going to jail NO MATTER WHAT, Cheny deserves to rot, if not for the torture than for using made up "intelligence" produced by detainees being tortured to send soldiers to kill thousands of civilians for oil and cost the Americans 1000's more lives of soldiers, when he himself said in 1990 that they shouldn't do exactly what they did in Iraq.
DJBerber 2 years ago
Like a great leader once said.
One death is a tragedy, One million death is just a statistic.
tommysch 2 years ago
Real torture is breaking bones, open wounds, starving rat eating them alive, electrocution, burning their body, torturing family members in front of them, keeping them alive with blood transfusion and many more awesome techniques.
What they did is effeminate torture.
tommysch 2 years ago
Make all the funny names you like for it, its already set in US precident that tactics like waterboarding ARE torture. We've sent people to jail on war crimes for such actions.
The end point is that torture, in ALL its forms, is illegal. There are far better ways to get info out of people, on top of that.
DeadlyChinchilla 2 years ago
"Real torture is..."
Is that Websters or the Oxford dictionary I can find that definition?
Hopeful71 2 years ago
From Webster: 2: the infliction of intense pain (as from burning, crushing, or wounding) to punish, coerce, or afford sadistic pleasure
tommysch 2 years ago
From: The Oxford Pocket Dictionary of Current English | Date: 2009 | © The Oxford Pocket Dictionary of Current English 2009, originally published by Oxford University Press 2009. (Hide copyright information) Copyright information
tor·ture / ˈtôrchər/ • n. the action or practice of inflicting severe pain on someone as a punishment or to force them to do or say something, or for the pleasure of the person inflicting the pain.
tommysch 2 years ago
Enough?
tommysch 2 years ago
"Real torture is breaking bones [etc]...What they did is effeminate torture."
"torture-the action or practice of inflicting severe pain on someone as a punishment or to force them to do or say something, or for the pleasure of the person inflicting the pain"
Ummm, so you don't see the problem in what you originally said? Both your Webster & Oxford quotes give perfect accounts of what waterboarding is.
Hopeful71 2 years ago
And btw kalik sheikh mohammed life is worth less then a body bag or a 5.56NATO round.
tommysch 2 years ago
They should have done field torture instead... And shoot them after the fact.
tommysch 2 years ago
For me part of growing up in the USA is torture. The reason kids don't do well in school, is the torturous nature of school. In a strong sense it is like day prison with desks. They'll destroy you if you complain. It's the way life sorts itself out, the agonized nature of people needing a reason for controlling other people through torture, should be obvious, but it's not. Think of it this way; if you don't torture, you will not be promoted.
hypnofan35 2 years ago
Our empire is about to tank. We are one of the worst countries economically. We have a lot of enemies which we treated harshly and unethically. If we don't respect the law you think our enemies will?
Turbo291 2 years ago
the majority of Americans really don't care if those people were tortured just like they don't care when a squirrel gets run over by a truck
motion00815 2 years ago
The beauty of this whole torture issue is this: Some of the people that hate America got tortured and suffered horribly. The other people that hate America and ordered the torture (repukelicans) get to suffer too. It's a win-win, for liberals. I'll do my little happy dance now. Halleluyah.
p12psicop 2 years ago
That doesn't make it any less wrong.
Emiljon 2 years ago
I know. It's all fucking wrong in a million ways.
p12psicop 2 years ago
I don't give a shit that terrorists were tortured. I'd personally torture anybody I knew had info about an impending attack on Americans. Believe it!
My problem is when torture becomes official US policy. That's dangerous.
toldyousohaha 2 years ago
ummmmmmmmmmm, you're immoral?
seerway 2 years ago
you are assuming that torture is an effective method of interrogation...and there is no evidence to make that conclusion.
and you have no problem with breaking US and International laws against torture...
i am glad you arent the person in charge of interrogations...
mcalien24 2 years ago
My point is that most people just don't give a shit. And the way Republicans can so easily paint Democrats as pansy-ass wimps, we'd best see this issue for what it is: A LOSER! Don't forget the elections of 02 and 04.
The truth is that most people are not that sympathetic toward those trying to kill us. And God help us if America is attacked during Democrat led hearings.
Karl Rove is somewhere smiling every time we push this. But don't worry; President Obama wants no part of this.
toldyousohaha 2 years ago
i agree that Obama wants little or no progress on this issue...
but i think you and Obama are letting politics get in the way of enforcing the rule of law...and thats fuckin sad.
mcalien24 2 years ago
Dude, we just can't win. In life we must show wisdom in chosing our battles. How long would our nation stand anyway if we were to suddenly become a pure-as-the-driven-snow society?
We'd be conquered fast. What you see in our culture that's so loathsome is just a reflection of the ugliness of a world run by human beings. We are a wicked lot; that's for sure.
I am not religious, but I do hope there is something better once this experiment is over. Most human suffering is so very unneccesary.
toldyousohaha 2 years ago
blah blah blah...not one concrete argument in defense of your stance of no-prosecutions.
your lack of moral clarity...your fear of political retribution...your fear of anything and everything in favor of expediency.
all lead me to believe that your unworthy of living in a country that values the rule of law...
and incapable of living up to the high standards we set for ourselves...especially when it is seemingly the most difficult to live up to them...
mcalien24 2 years ago
And Karl rve is counting on YOU to push this. Thank God President Obama knows better. It will never happen.
End of story.
toldyousohaha 2 years ago
What you fail to realize is Obama opened the door by releasing those memos...now its out of his hands and in the justice department...soon the pressure will mount and despite even Obamas wishes...we may see this thing evolve into prosecutions.
hmm lets see...standing up for the rule of law...
or...being afraid of karl rove...
grow a pair...
mcalien24 2 years ago
Why do people write things like "End of story," as if that ends the discussion? its innane in a public forum.
I already responded to this "Obama knows better" nonsense in my last comment. It really isn't up to him in the end. There is a long history of the White House *not* messing with the Justice Department. In fact, thats quite taboo.
DeadlyChinchilla 2 years ago
You just don't get it. Here's what's going to happen. They'll be a useless special committee or something, then everybody who's anybody will roundly condemn torture. Hand-wringers will snivel and moan before a report is issued condemning torture and blaming the Bush administration.
After that, we'll all pat ourselves on the back for being such good people unless we're attacked again. Then republicans will be re-elected to power.
But your heart's in the right place anyway.
Peace!
toldyousohaha 2 years ago
What don't I "get?" Your opinion on the matter? Yeah, I just can't relate to someone who is willing to overlook the breaking of our LAW for a political angle.
There is no "peace" in a country that allows its own leaders to run roughshod on its laws. Torture of "terrorists" today, torture of our own citizens tomorrow.
The law is the law, like it or not.
DeadlyChinchilla 2 years ago
Laws can be changed.
tommysch 2 years ago
Not frivolously, and not after-the-fact.
I'd love to see the logic to get torture legalized, when every study and expert says its inefficient and hideous work.
DeadlyChinchilla 2 years ago
Deterrence. Like nuclear weapons.
And retaliation for the mistreatment of our prisoner of war.
tommysch 2 years ago
Torture is not a deterrence or a weapon, it is an action.
By "retaliation," you mean "revenge." This is never a good reason to do ANYTHING, much less torture someone, stripping them of all their rights as human beings.
Further, its already been proven that our torturing only encourages other countries to mistreat OUR people. North Korea responded to questions about our 2 journalists safety with "We're not Guantanamo." North Korea!
Torture only LOSES us the high ground.
DeadlyChinchilla 2 years ago
Of course I mean revenge, and what "rights" are you talking about? Exemple: kalik sheikh mohammad is not a human nor he should have any rights. Those people preach killing civilians, give them what they want. Fight fire with fire.
And NK rhetoric should not be used as an exemple for anything. And please tell me how they could mistreat our POWs even more? I though beheading people was as high as it gets.
tommysch 2 years ago
The KKK still preaches hatred to all but whites, yet they are allowed to exist in the US due to inherent and legal freedoms.
Kalik, if captured, will be held accountable for HIS crimes, and tried in a court of law. Torture *still* won't come into the equation, because we should hold ourselves to a higher ideal than his own, and are legally mandated to do just that. An eye for an eye is not an appropriate response.
NK rhetoric? I can't use their statement as an example? Absurd.
DeadlyChinchilla 2 years ago
"kalik sheikh mohammad is not a human nor he should have any rights" How do you know. 'Innocent until proven guilty' is not just to protecte the innocent. It's to find out the truth. Cheney tortured KSM to PREVENT the truth from coming out.
auditthepolls 2 years ago
And I would love to see the justification for torturing an individual when its highly likely that individual has no knowledge of, and was not involved in, the mistreatment of our own people.
You're going to retaliate against this individual for something he didn't do or know about? Yeah, great response there... *rolls eyes*
DeadlyChinchilla 2 years ago
The law has NEVER been the law, and America was built upon breaking laws as we fucked everybody out of everything to build this nation. We can't suddenly start comporting ourselves as pure as the driven snow.
How 'bout this? Voters are voters, like them or not. They give power and remove it. Damn them all!
I have not meant to imply that you are wrong; it's just that what's right get's no political traction; therefore, nothing will come of this except cowardly demagoguery. Watch!
toldyousohaha 2 years ago
Your last statement is likely correct, though I hate to admit it. ^_^
Though I would contest that we have over 200 years of precident with our law, and our society is *very* influenced by legal precident. I'm not talking about how the US was built, or the ills of said actions, but about the foundation built by the founders after the US was already established (not in name, of course).
And it isn't about being "pure" either. Its holding to ideals, for the sake of our people and others.
DeadlyChinchilla 2 years ago
"for the sake of our people and others" Id agree if you remove the "and others" part.
If you did not already noticed its the western world vs the rest of the world. A little hint, the cold war.
tommysch 2 years ago
The Cold War ended long ago, and we are not engaged in a large-scale, world-wide 'cold war' either.
Also, the Cold War doesn't say anything to legalizing torture.
The "and others" is vital to the statement, and cannot be removed. Human rights are not xenophobic. They are inherent and without exception.
DeadlyChinchilla 2 years ago
They should be. If not its going against the human nature. Socialized groups fighting each others for territory or food is the basement of who we are as a race.
tommysch 2 years ago
You're correct, it is the "basement." I prefer to be in the attic though, since it has a window. Lots more fresh air, and I don't have to stare at that shadow on the wall for eternity.
That we have been violent in the past is no justification for being violent now.
DeadlyChinchilla 2 years ago
Necessity will eventually drive you in the basement, either to do your laundry (torturing people) or to get some frozen steaks (protecting your foreign assets). Or to get your shotgun in order to shoot a crackhead that is trying to rob you or harm you (wars or preemptive strikes). ^_^
tommysch 2 years ago
The simple solution would be to put your washer/dryer up in the 'normal' part of the house, not to expose clean clothes to the dirty basement. Also, I keep my .45 in the drawer by my bed. Most crackheads break in at night, after all, and won't stick around if I ask them to let me take a moment to run to the basement to get my gun.
All that aside... are analogies about a basement really all you have? How about we address the studies/experts that prove/say torture is ineffective/unnecessary?
DeadlyChinchilla 2 years ago
I never said it was efficient.
tommysch 2 years ago
I didn't say you said it was efficient, I said it *wasn't* efficient. You made it perfectly clear the only reason you condone torture is the "vengeance/revenge" factor.
At any rate, I feel I'm kicking a dead horse now. You can make all the trips to the basement you like, but don't be surprised when the Feds kick in your door and arrest you for breaking the law.
DeadlyChinchilla 2 years ago