P: Gods knowledge of a specific decision you will make
Q: You will make that decision
so basically the argument you give is thus
[](P->QP
P
____
[]Q
However, this is a fallacious argument. the only way for []Q to follow from the premises would be []P. But its not like God could only actualize a world with P. This would restrict divine freedom.
It's this simple; preknowledge negates free will. You can make what you like of it. Logic at this level is irrefutable. Also, grammar is a simple matter - you meant 'it's' I assume.
Well, are you talking about the people before Jesus came or after? Because if you are saying that the people after Jesus came have no fair chance and are "casted to hell" then thats just wrong on a whole nother level. Now if you're talking about the people before Jesus, he wouldn't be a truely forgiving God if he let all of them to hell would he? Do you think Noah went to hell? It doesn't state what happened to the people before Jesus but to say that he let ALL of them go to hell is wrong.
thats why we take mission trips and he speaks to them,but they try to dismiss it as an allusion or something else along those lines,and currently through research I have found out there is only one place left on earth where no one has heard the word of God,its called the 40/20 window all the missionaries that have went there have been killed,and you know about the world all being connected together at one time dont you ?read the bible it talks a bout several peoples journeys and letters to-
It also claims that the world is only 6000 years old and that Noah managed to fit a pair of every species of creature in existence on a single boat.
The world being a single continent far pre-dates the appearance of man as homo sapiens sapien. The land bridge of ice during the ice-age may be what you're thinking of.
the boat was three football fields long,thats alot of room,and that is by our measurements today bible measurements were longer.also some of the animals died,forcing us to form a new food chain.
How many species do you think that would be? It's 7 of every clean animal and two of every clean animal... the fact that millions of species are not mentioned in the bible and we can assume that aquaforms and flighted species were safe (for a short while); how many????
The Noah story is too preposterous to even entertain. The earth was covered with water. If the water was salt, how did the fresh water fish survive? If the water was fresh, how did the salt water fish survive? This is only one of a myriad of questions any thinking person can ask.
the only way you can tell me a carpenter with little to no shipbuilding experience could make a boat that big, is with divine help... and by going that route you stick lots of holes into said idea...not to mention the millions of species that would have to get on board...
Then tell me how we got this many different regional types of humans in such a short time(ie, Caucasian, African American, Aborigine, Oriental, Pacific Islander, etc)..to fix this problem ud have to say evolution is possible
Quite Honestly Lucas, I'm utterly sick of your impotent comments. If you think mine make no sense it's only that you're the stupid, or ignorant party in this conversation. Please do us both a favor and stop making a fool of yourself, as I'm only going to respond to a comment with merit from now on.
PS: Also, if you think spamming is an option, you're sadly wrong. I think I have ample reason now to block you should you try that.
Dude, you make absolutely NO sense by anything you say. In fact, for anyone who reads your comments are endanger of regressing in their intelligence. You are the perfect example of what happens when people listen to the Pink Floyd song, "we don't need no education"... and really take it seriously. Welcome to planet, how was your trip ?
You've barred me? What a wus. You come to pick on Christians, & the first one that doesn't take your crap... and you bar him. Classy maten very classy.
Whatever dude.. than I guess you have all the right answers than. Why ask questions since you have all the right answers ? B/c I've given very good answers that you just rolled over - without response by you. Typical. Arrogant to believe what we believe ?.. mis-stated on your part. Hey, good luck with all your right answers that you have. Hope it works out for ya 40 years from now. B/c we're not begging you to believe... it's your life. Like I care ? I'm not perfect enough to care. Enjoy mate !!
(con't again from below) ...would it be fair to say that we would need to work out our relationship with Him if it was to be a real relationship at all? Why do you think 1/3 of the angels fell.. because they had a non-effort relationship w/ God b/c He loved them some much. And 1/3 of them completely lost perspective of that love. He gave them the freedom to choose.. and 1/3 of them chose incorrectly. That's not a mean God... it's a God of complete freedom to choose.. for Him or against Him.
He created them knowing what they would do. That's twisted. You say reality was programmed by him after all. Sick to do that to a feeling being for eterinity... Sick.
No, He created them giving them the complete freedom to make whatever decision they chose in life. It's not sick... that's giving you free choice. Again, if God wanted robots... He would have made them. But, that wasn't His goal. He wanted relationship. Again with the word "relationship". Are you seeing a trend here ? He wants relationship with His creation. Actually, it's quite logical.
No, it's impossible to have pre-determination and free-will at the same time and an entity which full-knowing creates untold billions of other feeling entities knowing that they will suffer hideously at their creator's hands, for a set of rules their creator has made itself is sick. If he wants relationship with his creation it's totally one sided and sadistic.
If I'm seeing any kind of trend with your posts it's this - you have no understanding of what I'm saying.
(con't from below) ...Otherwise His presence would be too obvious & too overpowering & whatever faker could be in the midst of a God that they really don't care about... when they thought they were friends. Let me ask you a question - who would respect a god if they didn't have to work at their relationship with that god ? Does not marriage take work & faith ? How about friendship.. simple friendship. If done right, they all take work & faith. Now, throw in an ALL POWERFUL GOD in the mix..
My question to you is, "what are you really seeking ?" Is it the truth ? B/c I don't believe you're seeking for the truth. To me, you've already made your decision & you're to pick a fight. And so, don't be surprised if you don't Christians answering you with all smiles. You're starting it.. which is what you want, really.. a fight. Right ?
Granted that part of my reason for posting this video was my love of impassioned contention. However, what I'm seeking is a way to open your eyes. Christians don't hold the monopoly on a desire to save others you know. In fact from my position in the scheme of things, they're subject to a cancer, a harmful meme that will corrupt and enslave their existences.
One thing I'm certainly not concerned by is weather they smile at me, or not.
Think about this for a second... don't you find it a bit strange that your on a public international raging river proclaiming what you don't believe in? You tell me what you find so offensive at even the notion of people adapting a belief system that is all about love, peace, hope, joy... yada, yada, yada. The people who see Jesus, & the belief system that follows, for what it really is... they see something so pure... that this world can not replicate it... ever !
At the end of the day, there is always a system or a way that is built off of what is right & what is wrong. If you reject the system.. it, too, will reject you (to put it into other words). It sounds a bit cold, but that's why only adults are held accountable to making that decision. Complaining about or negating the decision doesn't make it go away. Just worse really... for your own sake.
Right and wrong are subjective and entirely human constructs.
To the Romans, slavery was an accepted and expected part of righteous human existence. Likewise to Virginian cotton farmers. This does not make it so now.
I've made my decision - I chose thought and responsability for my actions. I have chosen to bear the weight of my own decisons, weighing them on what I know to be true, not on the recomendation of a derivative, millenia-old book written by a Roman scholar with an agenda. Let go of your security blanket and think.
And when you describe God's system as autocratic & tyrinal... well, altough living for youself sounds like the best way & fun... it is always self-destructive, as you may have noticed by now. Life is "programmed" by God "... and if we want to go against that program, we foolishly eslave ourselves into a destructive life. So, who is really living an enslaved life now ?
And if you want an explaination that is 100% logical without having any element of faith... than you'll continue to wait until you die. B/c you'll never get it. That's why it's called faith, my friend.
I presume that you won't listen & that you're just here to pick fight and ignorantly declare what you don't believe. That's what I presume. Friend? Never made that statement. Me, high regard? Dude, what planet are you on? To have an intelligent conversation, one must at least quote the others properly. Otherwise, stay home & don't try to play ball with topics that are obviously out of your reach & capacity.
"I presume that you won't listen & that you're just here to pick fight and ignorantly declare what you don't believe."
Ignorance? Presumption? You ask what planet I'm on... This one. Throw shapes and know that all your comments are preserved as far as there are at least 10 pages of it here. You don't like what I say? If you're right, I'm nothing to fear am I? KKLASSSSSS! Move your body!
No, you have the choice to live how you want to... but there is a clear choice to make - live for God or live for yourself. And if that's the choice you choose, living for yourself, than that's the choice you'll be stuck with... while being separated from God forever. Yes it is a heavy decision, you're right, and it's one I make daily.
For you it's a heavy decision because you think it's the only choice. I repeat myself, (but since you've done so I feel justified to do so) - living without belief in your god does not mean living for yourself.
Whatever helps you sleep better at night, sweetheart. And thank you for clarifying who you live for... or, I'm sorry... what do you live for thean? I want to learn from the one who has all the answers in life. So, tell me, in you 20 something years of experience, what are those answers you have seemed to have stumbled upon?
I understand exactly what point you want to make.. but it doesn't hold water when you are speaking to any Christian who understands his faith. Who are we to judge God ? Imagine for a moment that God is real; if God is real... who owns the rules to life ? He would be more real than you are, if He's God. So, we don't consider ourselves to have a forum to question Him at such a level. That's like your 2 year. old questioning if you should fire an employee at work. What does he know ?
It's useless attempting to reason with a group who falls back on empty ambiguity when they're stumped for a logical, reasoned response is what you mean.
I don't judge the christian god. I don't believe in it. It doesn't make any sense to do so. I judge the literalistic approach to biblical interpretation.
Btw, what you're describing is not a system compatible with free-will, but a tyranical, autocratic system of oppression.
I get as frustrated, as you do, towards people who are always tossing crap at us, Christians, when they have the slightest clue about they are talking about. When Jesus said that you will find what you seek... It is easy to see by the "facts" people find & by the way they present it. If you don't want to see it... you won't. It's just that simple.
Pt. II... The bible has already made mention of that in a couple of areas. One, the easiest, is that ultimiately God judges a man's heart. Those who NEVER heard the name of Jesus are judged for who they were... who they really were !! Oh.. thanks for your comment on my profile. Not sure that was suppose to mean either.. but, whatever. peace dude
If you don't understand what is said, do you always believe that it's nonsense? If so you're hardly in a position to make accusations of arrogance tinman98jlw.
Pt. I... Your question doesn't make much sense, really. What would God prefer to do... make robots that follow his command... but have no ability to have a relationship with Him. Because the foundation of a relationship is the other persons ability to decide if he/she want to be in that relationship. And even though some don't want that relationship... they were still given a chance.
The point is that God is supposed to be omniscient, so he knew before he created humanity what humanity would do. If he did not know this then he is not omniscient and therefore not omnipotent. (NB The logic implicit in this question does not rule out the possibility of the existence of a God-like being, able to perform supernatural actions, it only shows the impossibility of the a god as described by the Christian faith, actually the god of the three Abrahamic faiths.)
No, it only shows your arrogance as you judging what God should & shouldn't be. And since you have no basis to respect God... this arguement has no foundation to build from. If you were to approach it from a point of view that aknowledges & respects God... then we would have a conversation. So, basically.. it's a waste of time to debate it with the famous you tube aethiest club.
Well put Lucas. All they are really seek is a fight anyways. How many people do you know that spend their time talking about what they don't believe ? From an outside perspective... it's alittle weird to go online and complain about what you don't believe. I mean, who cares what you don't believe. But, if you have an empty life... what else are ya going to do ?
I'm not arguing because I do not believe in God (even though I do) I'm arguing because to me the question in the video seems to have some merit to it. It is a question I have asked myself and to which I have never had a satisfactory answer. It seems as though this trend is set to continue because while Lucas and Tinman were both very quick to berate me for asking such a question neither of you have provided me with an answer.
Berate ? Are we playing the victim now ? Invite me to your pity party some other time. Seriously. I've already given the question my answer. God judges the heart of man.. and relationship doesn't truly exist without the ablity to choose if you want to be in that relationship or not. God places Himself on the most neutral "playing field" possible by NOT being actually physically present... but believing in Him & living for Him based on your faith in Him.
Yes, if God exists and is omniscient then surely he knows what we will do before he even creates us. Why then, does he have to put us on earth? Surely he could just condemn the souls he knows would be 'bad' to hell and send the souls he knows would be 'good' to heaven.
Thanks AKALight-Bringer. Also worth bearing in mind is that he supposedly created all those souls and so would have done so knowing he would torment them.
Is that's the difference, thean thank you for the english lesson. I was losing sleep over that. And did I hurt your feelings... I'll take time to cry about it later.
"Humanity rebelled against God in the beginning and there were dire consequences"
Why would there be dire consequences if God allready knew that we were gonna rebel? What is the purpose of punishing us if He is in the business of saving people in the first place? Is there perhaps some other force than Himself he is struggeling to save us from?
He must have had a plan. He would not save us by himself, nor by his angels, but he sent his son to die for our sins. His son did not suddenly spring to life through divine intervention, but was born and raised as a human before God let him be crucified.
If this was neccecairy; the life of Jesus before his death must have been poignant.
Thus; God wanted us to learn from the life of Jesus. He was an example.
And if you use your free will to believe in Jesus Christ- and thereby his teachings- you will not be condamned.
So let me try to point that towards your question. If God is omnicient, and if free will does exist; God wants mankind to learn from his sacrifice - if you can call Jesus that - and draw a conscious conclusion whether to believe in him or not. If he had denied us our free will and forced us to believe in him, we would not have been able to make that conscious choice.
However, the only flaw I can see in that logic is this; if you do choose to believe, and God is omnicient, that would have been a predetermined choice. Thus; mankind do not have free-will, but the illusion of the freedom to choose our own fate. Furthermore; why punish his own creation - whom he loves - if he allready knew the outcome of our choise?
So, either the omniscience is a lie, and/or the promise of free will is a lie, or - perhaps - hell and damnation is a lie.
I'm not one of those people..I'm an atheist but..maybe I didn't really understand your question. But going to hell? that's christian crap-talk..let's say there's a God does that implies the existence of hell? ..but you probably somewhere have a good point
well you might have a point..but some people might say that God created the world as an unfolding of his being (Nicolaus van casu, Hegel,..) and contradiction is a way of showing all that is in God. (in short) But I'm not sure I get your question
5/5 Well, I gotta tell ya, you have AN AWSOME VOICE- Do you work for the radio- or pursue a career in the media? FABULOUS VOICE!!!
I understand you're issue with "omniscience" and "free-will." These doctrines have always been held in tension when it is looked at from a human-systematic point of view. Time (chronos) is a parenthesis in eternity.
God has always loved humanity- ever since God has existed (and he always have) humanity has been part of his heart- and his desire has been to be one with us-
God did NOT CREATE MAN to be CONDEMNED. GOD has ALWAYS revealed himself in the hearts of man- either in one way or another- and GOD has always judged man by the moral law that he planted in humanity's heart...
Human history is an "unfolding" of God's disclosure to man- which led to his "incarnation" and will culminate in the renewal of all things. God does not "condemn" humanity- Humanity rebelled against God in the beginning and there were dire consequences...God as been in the business of saving people since the dawn of time- Salvation which has unfolded in Christ Jesus.
Wow...I come to you in peace and truth...give you a 5 (I'll do it again because Youtube is undergoing maintenance) give you a compliment...and you give me an attitude??
Unfortunately it seems that you want a "fast food" reply...when in fact I've been trying to show you the underlining issues you are not aware of.
Well, if you bother to notice I had even subscribed...but, I'll just unsubscribe...it makes no difference to me.
I though you were sincere in your "questions." But it seems that your video is more about trying to postulate rhetorical questions than to ACTUALLY want answers...
Have a nice life man. Good luck. Live long and prosper.
The Great "Mystery" (not mystery because it is "unknown" but rather because it is "supra-rational") is that though God (because he is outside of time as well as personally inside through the incarnation) "knows" or is "intimately related" with every outcome in time from beginning to end- at the same time gives you the freedom to live out your life- God has NEVER MADE ANYONE do what they don't want to... Sorry to clutter your blog.
From logic point of view, ok?
(remember my points from last time we...chatted)
A day for God would be millions of years...
So when he created everything, he did all of that in millions of years. Or maybe not millions of years, maybe billions in some cases.
FREE WILL: We have free will while we walk on this Earth.
How to get to Heaven:do good
How to get to Hell: do bad
simple :)
Bladestoper 2 years ago
Listen kid. The reason I directed you here is because I didn't want anything more to do with this damnable shambles of an arguement.
Learn to actually understand what people say, or... well it's this simple: FUCK OFF, OR YOU'RE NOTHING BUT A FUCKING TROLL!
Case closed.
Pooknottin 2 years ago
lol asshole
Bladestoper 2 years ago
look asshole this is a question video. So I answered them. wtf is ur problem ur an ass
Bladestoper 2 years ago
P: Gods knowledge of a specific decision you will make
Q: You will make that decision
so basically the argument you give is thus
[](P->QP
P
____
[]Q
However, this is a fallacious argument. the only way for []Q to follow from the premises would be []P. But its not like God could only actualize a world with P. This would restrict divine freedom.
migkillertwo 3 years ago
It's this simple; preknowledge negates free will. You can make what you like of it. Logic at this level is irrefutable. Also, grammar is a simple matter - you meant 'it's' I assume.
Pooknottin 2 years ago
I've also wondered how one can consider god's command "love/worship me or I'll damn you to hell" free will. I thought that was considered abuse.
HappyHeathen32 3 years ago
I've been away for a while, but I can only hope you're not directing this particualr quandry at me.
youmeandsomeknives 3 years ago
ok but is knowing everything everyone would think say and do different than controlling it? Hmmm just thinking.....
77Porthos77 3 years ago
Only if you don't create them knowing what will come to pass.
youmeandsomeknives 3 years ago
Well, are you talking about the people before Jesus came or after? Because if you are saying that the people after Jesus came have no fair chance and are "casted to hell" then thats just wrong on a whole nother level. Now if you're talking about the people before Jesus, he wouldn't be a truely forgiving God if he let all of them to hell would he? Do you think Noah went to hell? It doesn't state what happened to the people before Jesus but to say that he let ALL of them go to hell is wrong.
RengadePige 4 years ago
Please re-phrase this in understandable English. Unfortunately the mistakes you've made create a general ambiguity in your questions.
I'd also recommend that you re-watch the video as you've clearly missed some of the rather important details in it.
youmeandsomeknives 4 years ago
inform people about God and jesus.
mrcrazypuppethead 4 years ago
It also tells us that we should kill homosexuals and anyone caught working on a Sunday.
youmeandsomeknives 4 years ago
thats why we take mission trips and he speaks to them,but they try to dismiss it as an allusion or something else along those lines,and currently through research I have found out there is only one place left on earth where no one has heard the word of God,its called the 40/20 window all the missionaries that have went there have been killed,and you know about the world all being connected together at one time dont you ?read the bible it talks a bout several peoples journeys and letters to-
mrcrazypuppethead 4 years ago
It also claims that the world is only 6000 years old and that Noah managed to fit a pair of every species of creature in existence on a single boat.
The world being a single continent far pre-dates the appearance of man as homo sapiens sapien. The land bridge of ice during the ice-age may be what you're thinking of.
Also, I think you mean illusion, not allusion.
youmeandsomeknives 4 years ago
the boat was three football fields long,thats alot of room,and that is by our measurements today bible measurements were longer.also some of the animals died,forcing us to form a new food chain.
bwpuppethead 4 years ago
How many species do you think that would be? It's 7 of every clean animal and two of every clean animal... the fact that millions of species are not mentioned in the bible and we can assume that aquaforms and flighted species were safe (for a short while); how many????
youmeandsomeknives 4 years ago
The Noah story is too preposterous to even entertain. The earth was covered with water. If the water was salt, how did the fresh water fish survive? If the water was fresh, how did the salt water fish survive? This is only one of a myriad of questions any thinking person can ask.
BeatBuddy 4 years ago
Some small parts of the bible were left out . . . pieces of little importance.How sure are you God did not create other animals ??
mrcrazypuppethead 4 years ago
Those books are known and contain no such information.
youmeandsomeknives 3 years ago
the only way you can tell me a carpenter with little to no shipbuilding experience could make a boat that big, is with divine help... and by going that route you stick lots of holes into said idea...not to mention the millions of species that would have to get on board...
Then tell me how we got this many different regional types of humans in such a short time(ie, Caucasian, African American, Aborigine, Oriental, Pacific Islander, etc)..to fix this problem ud have to say evolution is possible
Ristari7 3 years ago
It's just such a joke isn't it? I'd laugh, but there's people who're willing to believe this shit.
youmeandsomeknives 3 years ago
Quite Honestly Lucas, I'm utterly sick of your impotent comments. If you think mine make no sense it's only that you're the stupid, or ignorant party in this conversation. Please do us both a favor and stop making a fool of yourself, as I'm only going to respond to a comment with merit from now on.
PS: Also, if you think spamming is an option, you're sadly wrong. I think I have ample reason now to block you should you try that.
youmeandsomeknives 4 years ago
Dude, you make absolutely NO sense by anything you say. In fact, for anyone who reads your comments are endanger of regressing in their intelligence. You are the perfect example of what happens when people listen to the Pink Floyd song, "we don't need no education"... and really take it seriously. Welcome to planet, how was your trip ?
Lucasflorida 4 years ago
Listen to it did you? Not me.
youmeandsomeknives 4 years ago
I'll comment more when I have time... thanks for the fun.
Lucasflorida 4 years ago
You're welcome. Anytime.
youmeandsomeknives 4 years ago
oh, I guess you lifted the bar now. Nevermind... Good on ya mate.
Lucasflorida 4 years ago
I take it there was the usual YouTube maintainance problem. Y'know, when you're barred you won't get the option to comment... just so you know.
youmeandsomeknives 4 years ago
You've barred me? What a wus. You come to pick on Christians, & the first one that doesn't take your crap... and you bar him. Classy maten very classy.
Lucasflorida 4 years ago
I never barred you.
youmeandsomeknives 4 years ago
Whatever dude.. than I guess you have all the right answers than. Why ask questions since you have all the right answers ? B/c I've given very good answers that you just rolled over - without response by you. Typical. Arrogant to believe what we believe ?.. mis-stated on your part. Hey, good luck with all your right answers that you have. Hope it works out for ya 40 years from now. B/c we're not begging you to believe... it's your life. Like I care ? I'm not perfect enough to care. Enjoy mate !!
Lucasflorida 4 years ago
I comment once.
You give 12 responses.
I answer.
You call me arrogant and say I'll regret it.
Not begging?
???
youmeandsomeknives 4 years ago
All life really is... is the decisions you make.
Lucasflorida 4 years ago
...
youmeandsomeknives 4 years ago
No, life is the consequence of those decisions. You are the cause of them. Life is the cause of you... ad-infinitum.
youmeandsomeknives 4 years ago
(con't again from below) ...would it be fair to say that we would need to work out our relationship with Him if it was to be a real relationship at all? Why do you think 1/3 of the angels fell.. because they had a non-effort relationship w/ God b/c He loved them some much. And 1/3 of them completely lost perspective of that love. He gave them the freedom to choose.. and 1/3 of them chose incorrectly. That's not a mean God... it's a God of complete freedom to choose.. for Him or against Him.
Lucasflorida 4 years ago
He created them knowing what they would do. That's twisted. You say reality was programmed by him after all. Sick to do that to a feeling being for eterinity... Sick.
youmeandsomeknives 4 years ago
No, He created them giving them the complete freedom to make whatever decision they chose in life. It's not sick... that's giving you free choice. Again, if God wanted robots... He would have made them. But, that wasn't His goal. He wanted relationship. Again with the word "relationship". Are you seeing a trend here ? He wants relationship with His creation. Actually, it's quite logical.
Lucasflorida 4 years ago
God SHOULD want robots. That way he'd simply be a decepticon. Transformers - robots in disguise.
youmeandsomeknives 4 years ago
No, it's impossible to have pre-determination and free-will at the same time and an entity which full-knowing creates untold billions of other feeling entities knowing that they will suffer hideously at their creator's hands, for a set of rules their creator has made itself is sick. If he wants relationship with his creation it's totally one sided and sadistic.
If I'm seeing any kind of trend with your posts it's this - you have no understanding of what I'm saying.
youmeandsomeknives 4 years ago
(con't from below) ...Otherwise His presence would be too obvious & too overpowering & whatever faker could be in the midst of a God that they really don't care about... when they thought they were friends. Let me ask you a question - who would respect a god if they didn't have to work at their relationship with that god ? Does not marriage take work & faith ? How about friendship.. simple friendship. If done right, they all take work & faith. Now, throw in an ALL POWERFUL GOD in the mix..
Lucasflorida 4 years ago
My question to you is, "what are you really seeking ?" Is it the truth ? B/c I don't believe you're seeking for the truth. To me, you've already made your decision & you're to pick a fight. And so, don't be surprised if you don't Christians answering you with all smiles. You're starting it.. which is what you want, really.. a fight. Right ?
Lucasflorida 4 years ago
Truth?
I wouldn't presume to have such a lofty goal. You christians presume to have found it.
Who's arrogant here?
At least I attempt to justify my position with more than rhetoric and vague proclaimations of claimed epiphany.
youmeandsomeknives 4 years ago
Granted that part of my reason for posting this video was my love of impassioned contention. However, what I'm seeking is a way to open your eyes. Christians don't hold the monopoly on a desire to save others you know. In fact from my position in the scheme of things, they're subject to a cancer, a harmful meme that will corrupt and enslave their existences.
One thing I'm certainly not concerned by is weather they smile at me, or not.
youmeandsomeknives 4 years ago
Think about this for a second... don't you find it a bit strange that your on a public international raging river proclaiming what you don't believe in? You tell me what you find so offensive at even the notion of people adapting a belief system that is all about love, peace, hope, joy... yada, yada, yada. The people who see Jesus, & the belief system that follows, for what it really is... they see something so pure... that this world can not replicate it... ever !
Lucasflorida 4 years ago
It's easy... just take the dive.
youmeandsomeknives 4 years ago
Not at all. If I'm proclaiming what I don't believe it's because I see belief of a certain kind harmful.
youmeandsomeknives 4 years ago
At the end of the day, there is always a system or a way that is built off of what is right & what is wrong. If you reject the system.. it, too, will reject you (to put it into other words). It sounds a bit cold, but that's why only adults are held accountable to making that decision. Complaining about or negating the decision doesn't make it go away. Just worse really... for your own sake.
Lucasflorida 4 years ago
Right and wrong are subjective and entirely human constructs.
To the Romans, slavery was an accepted and expected part of righteous human existence. Likewise to Virginian cotton farmers. This does not make it so now.
Study.
youmeandsomeknives 4 years ago
I've made my decision - I chose thought and responsability for my actions. I have chosen to bear the weight of my own decisons, weighing them on what I know to be true, not on the recomendation of a derivative, millenia-old book written by a Roman scholar with an agenda. Let go of your security blanket and think.
youmeandsomeknives 4 years ago
And when you describe God's system as autocratic & tyrinal... well, altough living for youself sounds like the best way & fun... it is always self-destructive, as you may have noticed by now. Life is "programmed" by God "... and if we want to go against that program, we foolishly eslave ourselves into a destructive life. So, who is really living an enslaved life now ?
Lucasflorida 4 years ago
Programmed - pre-determined - enslaved.
youmeandsomeknives 4 years ago
Living without god does not mean living for yourself. That's another choice. Belief in a god is not a requisite for altruism.
youmeandsomeknives 4 years ago
Okay, again, thean who or what do you live for ?
Lucasflorida 4 years ago
House music all night long.
youmeandsomeknives 4 years ago
And if you want an explaination that is 100% logical without having any element of faith... than you'll continue to wait until you die. B/c you'll never get it. That's why it's called faith, my friend.
Lucasflorida 4 years ago
Logic? This is a statement of belief not logic.
youmeandsomeknives 4 years ago
You presume much.
1. I hold your opinion in such high regard that I'm actually waiting for an answer from you.
2. That I consider you a friend.
3. That faith is anything to me other than an excuse for sloppy thinking.
youmeandsomeknives 4 years ago
I presume that you won't listen & that you're just here to pick fight and ignorantly declare what you don't believe. That's what I presume. Friend? Never made that statement. Me, high regard? Dude, what planet are you on? To have an intelligent conversation, one must at least quote the others properly. Otherwise, stay home & don't try to play ball with topics that are obviously out of your reach & capacity.
Lucasflorida 4 years ago
"I presume that you won't listen & that you're just here to pick fight and ignorantly declare what you don't believe."
Ignorance? Presumption? You ask what planet I'm on... This one. Throw shapes and know that all your comments are preserved as far as there are at least 10 pages of it here. You don't like what I say? If you're right, I'm nothing to fear am I? KKLASSSSSS! Move your body!
youmeandsomeknives 4 years ago
No, you have the choice to live how you want to... but there is a clear choice to make - live for God or live for yourself. And if that's the choice you choose, living for yourself, than that's the choice you'll be stuck with... while being separated from God forever. Yes it is a heavy decision, you're right, and it's one I make daily.
Lucasflorida 4 years ago
Choice is dependent on a collection of factors. These factors are dictative - therefore there is no choice, merely the illusion of such.
youmeandsomeknives 4 years ago
For you it's a heavy decision because you think it's the only choice. I repeat myself, (but since you've done so I feel justified to do so) - living without belief in your god does not mean living for yourself.
youmeandsomeknives 4 years ago
Whatever helps you sleep better at night, sweetheart. And thank you for clarifying who you live for... or, I'm sorry... what do you live for thean? I want to learn from the one who has all the answers in life. So, tell me, in you 20 something years of experience, what are those answers you have seemed to have stumbled upon?
Lucasflorida 4 years ago
Mu Mu.
youmeandsomeknives 4 years ago
I'm sorry mother, I had no idea you were so wise.
Fyi - I don't think I've got all the answers and I'm not trying to set myself up as some kind of guru. Do you, and are you?
youmeandsomeknives 4 years ago
I understand exactly what point you want to make.. but it doesn't hold water when you are speaking to any Christian who understands his faith. Who are we to judge God ? Imagine for a moment that God is real; if God is real... who owns the rules to life ? He would be more real than you are, if He's God. So, we don't consider ourselves to have a forum to question Him at such a level. That's like your 2 year. old questioning if you should fire an employee at work. What does he know ?
Lucasflorida 4 years ago
It's useless attempting to reason with a group who falls back on empty ambiguity when they're stumped for a logical, reasoned response is what you mean.
I don't judge the christian god. I don't believe in it. It doesn't make any sense to do so. I judge the literalistic approach to biblical interpretation.
Btw, what you're describing is not a system compatible with free-will, but a tyranical, autocratic system of oppression.
youmeandsomeknives 4 years ago
I get as frustrated, as you do, towards people who are always tossing crap at us, Christians, when they have the slightest clue about they are talking about. When Jesus said that you will find what you seek... It is easy to see by the "facts" people find & by the way they present it. If you don't want to see it... you won't. It's just that simple.
Lucasflorida 4 years ago
Pt. II... The bible has already made mention of that in a couple of areas. One, the easiest, is that ultimiately God judges a man's heart. Those who NEVER heard the name of Jesus are judged for who they were... who they really were !! Oh.. thanks for your comment on my profile. Not sure that was suppose to mean either.. but, whatever. peace dude
tinman98jlw 4 years ago
If you don't understand what is said, do you always believe that it's nonsense? If so you're hardly in a position to make accusations of arrogance tinman98jlw.
youmeandsomeknives 4 years ago
Pt. I... Your question doesn't make much sense, really. What would God prefer to do... make robots that follow his command... but have no ability to have a relationship with Him. Because the foundation of a relationship is the other persons ability to decide if he/she want to be in that relationship. And even though some don't want that relationship... they were still given a chance.
tinman98jlw 4 years ago
The point is that God is supposed to be omniscient, so he knew before he created humanity what humanity would do. If he did not know this then he is not omniscient and therefore not omnipotent. (NB The logic implicit in this question does not rule out the possibility of the existence of a God-like being, able to perform supernatural actions, it only shows the impossibility of the a god as described by the Christian faith, actually the god of the three Abrahamic faiths.)
AKALucifer 4 years ago
No, it only shows your arrogance as you judging what God should & shouldn't be. And since you have no basis to respect God... this arguement has no foundation to build from. If you were to approach it from a point of view that aknowledges & respects God... then we would have a conversation. So, basically.. it's a waste of time to debate it with the famous you tube aethiest club.
Lucasflorida 4 years ago
Well put Lucas. All they are really seek is a fight anyways. How many people do you know that spend their time talking about what they don't believe ? From an outside perspective... it's alittle weird to go online and complain about what you don't believe. I mean, who cares what you don't believe. But, if you have an empty life... what else are ya going to do ?
tinman98jlw 4 years ago
1. I have yet to find a reason to respect the christian god.
2. I'm not an atheist.
youmeandsomeknives 4 years ago
I'm not arguing because I do not believe in God (even though I do) I'm arguing because to me the question in the video seems to have some merit to it. It is a question I have asked myself and to which I have never had a satisfactory answer. It seems as though this trend is set to continue because while Lucas and Tinman were both very quick to berate me for asking such a question neither of you have provided me with an answer.
AKALucifer 4 years ago
Berate ? Are we playing the victim now ? Invite me to your pity party some other time. Seriously. I've already given the question my answer. God judges the heart of man.. and relationship doesn't truly exist without the ablity to choose if you want to be in that relationship or not. God places Himself on the most neutral "playing field" possible by NOT being actually physically present... but believing in Him & living for Him based on your faith in Him.
Lucasflorida 4 years ago
You've yet to address the dichotomy however. You say nothing.
youmeandsomeknives 4 years ago
Yes, if God exists and is omniscient then surely he knows what we will do before he even creates us. Why then, does he have to put us on earth? Surely he could just condemn the souls he knows would be 'bad' to hell and send the souls he knows would be 'good' to heaven.
AKALucifer 4 years ago
Thanks AKALight-Bringer. Also worth bearing in mind is that he supposedly created all those souls and so would have done so knowing he would torment them.
youmeandsomeknives 4 years ago
Yes, wheels within wheels.
AKALucifer 4 years ago
Does he? Doesn't he really do so because he's a construct of belief and nothing more?
As far as berating someone is concerned, you're certainly guilty of that. Your posts consist of little else, but proclaimations of doom.
Two words for you - then, than. Learn the difference in thier meanings please.
youmeandsomeknives 4 years ago
Is that's the difference, thean thank you for the english lesson. I was losing sleep over that. And did I hurt your feelings... I'll take time to cry about it later.
Lucasflorida 4 years ago
Pleav doo. I'm Expektin' pengoo soon. So'z plz bee niz. pekka'h.
youmeandsomeknives 4 years ago
"Humanity rebelled against God in the beginning and there were dire consequences"
Why would there be dire consequences if God allready knew that we were gonna rebel? What is the purpose of punishing us if He is in the business of saving people in the first place? Is there perhaps some other force than Himself he is struggeling to save us from?
dragoonreborn 4 years ago
Humans imagine their leader to be like them - changeable and spiteful, but also loving and beneavolent.
youmeandsomeknives 4 years ago
A beneavolent God would not condamn anyone by the mere fact that they do not believe in him, right?
If God does exist, that would be a question of logic that should be answered.
If he indeed is in the buisness of saving us; why did he not stop us from sinning?
dragoonreborn 4 years ago
He must have had a plan. He would not save us by himself, nor by his angels, but he sent his son to die for our sins. His son did not suddenly spring to life through divine intervention, but was born and raised as a human before God let him be crucified.
If this was neccecairy; the life of Jesus before his death must have been poignant.
Thus; God wanted us to learn from the life of Jesus. He was an example.
dragoonreborn 4 years ago
And if you use your free will to believe in Jesus Christ- and thereby his teachings- you will not be condamned.
So let me try to point that towards your question. If God is omnicient, and if free will does exist; God wants mankind to learn from his sacrifice - if you can call Jesus that - and draw a conscious conclusion whether to believe in him or not. If he had denied us our free will and forced us to believe in him, we would not have been able to make that conscious choice.
dragoonreborn 4 years ago
However, the only flaw I can see in that logic is this; if you do choose to believe, and God is omnicient, that would have been a predetermined choice. Thus; mankind do not have free-will, but the illusion of the freedom to choose our own fate. Furthermore; why punish his own creation - whom he loves - if he allready knew the outcome of our choise?
So, either the omniscience is a lie, and/or the promise of free will is a lie, or - perhaps - hell and damnation is a lie.
How's that logic?
dragoonreborn 4 years ago
A beneavolent God would not condamn anyone by the mere fact that they do not believe in him, right?
If God does exist, that would be a question of logic that should be answered.
If he indeed is in the buisness of saving us; why did he not stop us from sinning?
dragoonreborn 4 years ago
Yup, that's most of what I was saying yes.
youmeandsomeknives 4 years ago
I'm not one of those people..I'm an atheist but..maybe I didn't really understand your question. But going to hell? that's christian crap-talk..let's say there's a God does that implies the existence of hell? ..but you probably somewhere have a good point
Kimikikik 4 years ago
You are correct - you don't understand my question.
Also, simply saying that something is 'christian crap talk' is about as helpful as a soap hacksaw, or a chocholate oven.
youmeandsomeknives 4 years ago
well you might have a point..but some people might say that God created the world as an unfolding of his being (Nicolaus van casu, Hegel,..) and contradiction is a way of showing all that is in God. (in short) But I'm not sure I get your question
Kimikikik 4 years ago
I don't think that I could be much clearer, or you more vague without far more effort than either of us are willing to put into this.
By your assertion you would have all atheists beleive in god and all theists deny him. After all, if god is contrary, so should his followers be.
youmeandsomeknives 4 years ago
5/5 Well, I gotta tell ya, you have AN AWSOME VOICE- Do you work for the radio- or pursue a career in the media? FABULOUS VOICE!!!
I understand you're issue with "omniscience" and "free-will." These doctrines have always been held in tension when it is looked at from a human-systematic point of view. Time (chronos) is a parenthesis in eternity.
ByzantineChristian 4 years ago
God has always loved humanity- ever since God has existed (and he always have) humanity has been part of his heart- and his desire has been to be one with us-
God did NOT CREATE MAN to be CONDEMNED. GOD has ALWAYS revealed himself in the hearts of man- either in one way or another- and GOD has always judged man by the moral law that he planted in humanity's heart...
ByzantineChristian 4 years ago
Human history is an "unfolding" of God's disclosure to man- which led to his "incarnation" and will culminate in the renewal of all things. God does not "condemn" humanity- Humanity rebelled against God in the beginning and there were dire consequences...God as been in the business of saving people since the dawn of time- Salvation which has unfolded in Christ Jesus.
ByzantineChristian 4 years ago
And yet you have not answered my obvious question.
youmeandsomeknives 4 years ago
Nor, for that matter given me the rating you claim to have given me on this vid (I monitor the ratings I get funnily enough).
youmeandsomeknives 4 years ago
Wow...I come to you in peace and truth...give you a 5 (I'll do it again because Youtube is undergoing maintenance) give you a compliment...and you give me an attitude??
Unfortunately it seems that you want a "fast food" reply...when in fact I've been trying to show you the underlining issues you are not aware of.
ByzantineChristian 4 years ago
5/5 logged about 5 days ago with the first comments matey.
Attitude? Fast-food? Uderlying issues I'm not aware of? Lets see shall we?
youmeandsomeknives 4 years ago
You're an idiot- I don't debate small fries...I just got done with a major victory- so don't bother...
ByzantineChristian 4 years ago
Well thanks. That's nice and diplomatic isn't it? I suppose you're above this whole debate too hun?
youmeandsomeknives 4 years ago
Well, if you bother to notice I had even subscribed...but, I'll just unsubscribe...it makes no difference to me.
I though you were sincere in your "questions." But it seems that your video is more about trying to postulate rhetorical questions than to ACTUALLY want answers...
Have a nice life man. Good luck. Live long and prosper.
ByzantineChristian 4 years ago
The Great "Mystery" (not mystery because it is "unknown" but rather because it is "supra-rational") is that though God (because he is outside of time as well as personally inside through the incarnation) "knows" or is "intimately related" with every outcome in time from beginning to end- at the same time gives you the freedom to live out your life- God has NEVER MADE ANYONE do what they don't want to... Sorry to clutter your blog.
ByzantineChristian 4 years ago
Do you want to watch it again?
Omniscience - knowledge of all that is and shall be.
God creates man - he knows what he shall be.
As far as supra-rational is concerned, what's the point in being a part of this debate if you claim that 'god' surpasses reason?
Sorry man. I'm not here to aggrivate you, but you pose a poor case here. Please review the vid and post again.
youmeandsomeknives 4 years ago
So he's spiderman then is he? Well that settles the whole arguement doesn't it - he's supernatural, so he doesn't need to follow reason in any way.
Why are you bothering with this if this is going to be your position? Just have faith and leave us poor heretics for the fire would you?
youmeandsomeknives 4 years ago
5/5. Keep up the great work.
dallasp15 4 years ago
5/5. And subscribing in hopes of more of these videos.
fullygodfullyhuman 4 years ago