hey joe.thanks so much. that was very clear information. i wonder why so less views. i am from canada.
I have three questions:
1) Why were the party people so keen on holding elections early?
2) Why do you call Florida as fair election too? Without campaigning people don't know the candidates and their ideas either. It is like choosing a gift from unopened boxes. This is not fair either.
3) Why didn't states hold their primaries again quickly after campaigning?
1) The first states get the most attention from the candidates so everybody competes to be early.
2) Florida held an election where everyone was on the ballot and everyone could vote. That's enough for me to call it fair. They didn't campaign in Alaska either, but nobody thinks that election was unfair. Voters had all the information they needed.
3) They should have. It's disgraceful they didn't. Part of it was the cost, and another was getting everyone to agree on how to do it.
First everybody was on both ballots. Then the candidates decided not to campaign in either state. Then most of the candidates (not Hillary or Dennis) wanted to get off both ballots. Michigan let them. Florida did not.
you are more than right even if i think that even florida election wasnt fair because no candidates campaigned there.and you know how much it can affect the results.reflect the will of the people?and what about all the people who stayed at home thinking their wont be counted.
I understand what you are saying, but I am probably the few people who disagree with the fact that "none of the candidates campaigned in Florida." Barack Obama posted an ad that is technically considered campaigning. However, the big insult is Hillary Clinton's 4 fundraisers. Of course fundraisers in the DNC rules were allowed, but think about it. What exactly is the difference? Hell, it's the same thing only you are just asking for money.
In addition, Hillary planned and held a rally in Florida only minutes after the primary ended. THAT SHOULD BE AGAINST THE RULES ITSELF. She planned a campaign even there before the primary and held it afterwards. Plus the fundraisers.
That is worse than Obama's 1 National TV Ad. She should have been sanctioned for that. The DNC are fucked up, end of story.
no candidates had the opurtunity to express their views.clinton was the inevitable apparent nominee but she lost this status when people got to know her opponent thanks to a well organised campaign.and it s known that every where he goes,he does better .he is a illinois senator.are you sure all voters heard about either him or his position on issues before?and what about those who didnt vote thinking it was pointless?.this deal struck by the dnc is a political stunt and doesnt make any sense.
Thanks Joe. I'm a Canadian living in France, trying to figure out this mess. Yours is the clearest explanation I've heard or read anywhere. And I think you make a valid distinction between the two states. No one who understands this can accept Clinton's position on the FL and MICH delegates. The problem, as you say, is that folks are confused largely because the mainstream media isn't doing it's job.
Paragraph 6 of the August 28th version isn't on the August 31st version. I know you and many other people are rooting for Obama but I look at this as it unfolds and I find it very difficult to watch any news network. They all exclude valuable facts and that shouldn't be how we decide who our next president should be.
Josh, you haven't said this, but I take it you're making a case for seating the delegates 105-67 and 73-0. Or maybe some other configuration, but if so, you're basing your opinion on a document that is not part of the DNC bylaws.
The Rules committee will settle this matter hopefully on the 31st, and they will do it through the authority of the bylaws. Not through a voluntary candidate pledge that the DNC never signed.
I believe Hillary signed the August 31st version as did John Edwards. I go to great lengths to find the truth. I find it unfortunate that the democratic base at large is robustly misinformed. The candidates agreed not to campaign or participate. The definition of the word participate and how it relates to Florida and Michigan is really the only argument to be had. Leaving your name on a ballot is hardly participating in a state primary.
My understanding is that Florida didn't allow withdrawal, even though the candidates (other than Hillary and Dennis) wanted to get off.
What are you talking about with August 5th? I haven't heard anything like that. The DNC is going to meet on May 31st and decide how to seat Michigan and Florida's delegates.
I Think Hillary should get all the Michigan delegates and her share of the Florida delegates. It is Obama's fault his name was not on the ballot in Michigan. Do not disenfranchise the people of Michigan and Florida. The right to vote belongs to the people not the DNC. Fuck the DNC!
Regarding your last sentence, the right to vote in primaries is not constitutionally protected. The DNC actually *can* do whatever they want.
My argument is based on what I think would reflect the most honestly democratic count, and I exclude Michigan because their result truly misrepresents the wishes of their citizens.
I don't care what Obama or Hillary did. It's not their job to run the elections. Michigan shouldn't have held an election with half the ballot missing.
this's my first comment on a vid, but its very necessary. I'm an australian following usa politics atm, and i recently heard wierd things about florida and michigan. googling it returned millions of discussions and reports about consequences of a "rule breaking", but none that simply explained it clearly & concisely.
this video did tho. it told me everything i wanted to kno, wasnt biased, made perfect sense, and u spoke both confidently and eloquently. im quite impressed. thank u, & keep it up.
You should really read the fifteenth amendment. By law Florida and Michigan will count. Obama exercised poor judgement by taking away the opportunity for Michigan to vote for him. Regardless of what they agreed upon, the Constitution supercedes the DNC.
Republicans can vote. They have every right to re-register as a democrat if they want a democrat nominated. The Fifteenth Amendment states: "The right of the citizens of the United States to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on account of race,color, or previous condition of servitude." Those votes legally count even if there is no re-vote. Anything less would be unconstitutional. The DNC violated the constitution.
Josh, I promise you that the entire political class, the media, the academic community, and the Democratic Party did not all have the entire concept of voting rights slip their mind.
It's not an election for public office, it's for a private office called "nominee". The 15th does not apply.
Michigan wouldn't be an issue, had Edwards, Richardson, and Obama not conspired to jump off of the ballot in an open election. Dumb move. It is important see where voters stand. The Fifteenth Amendment always applies to the ballot box local or otherwise. There isn't a clause that says anything about primaries or DNC violations. Why did the voters even vote? They count.
I totally agree with you. The only thing I'd add is that while the DNC punished both states equally, Florida is led by a Republican governor and Republican legislature. THEY made the choice; the Democrats couldn't override it (and there is evidence that they tried to convince the other side not to do it). In Michigan, the governor is a Democrat and the Legislature mostly is. So the argument of "they knew the rules and broke them anyway" applies to MI Democrats, but not so much to FL Democrats...
!st let me applaud u 4 your excellent speaking skills and simple explanation 4 those who just don't get it!
Now I have 2 let u have it!
#1-breaking the rules is breaking the rules. I don't think Florida's vote sohlud count at all & I don't think they deserve a re-do.What kind of message does that send? U "nananana-look at us-we're doing it & there's nothing U can do about it." (tongue sticking out) So we reward that by saying, "ok, we're sorry, we should have let U break the rules?" come on!
#2-the reason voter turn out was so great in Florida is b/c there was another issue on the ballot. Barack is the kind of guy who has 2 work twice as hard as Hillary (well, he had 2 in the beginning) 2 let people know who he is & what he stands 4. Hillary was a household name so to just give it to her when he didn't get a chance to campaign there is unfair to him and favors Clinton.
#3 U give FL & MI a chance 2 revote it'll make their vote MORE important than when they decided 2 break the rules. That was their WHOLE PURPOSE & U want 2 reward them & give them the power they were seeking all along? I'm not against letting them sit in on the convention but don't count their votes! What better lesson than 2 ground a kid 2 the yard & then make them go sit outside & watch all the other kids that behave-have fun? U break the rules-U get a spanking! Wow, what a concept!
Lastly, I have 2 disagree w/ U b/c the will of the people is NOT more important than following the law & rules. BEFORE EVERY1 flips out-hear me out:
I value the power 2 vote & I think the will of the people is important, but so is following rules & the law. It sets a VERY poor example not only 4 the adults in this country that played by the rules, but also 4 kids in this country who don't get enough quality life lessons these days. Everything shouldn't be arbitrary.
Thanks for all that mismindles! They won't flip out because most of them agree with you.
The primary is one long election in which Florida is 6% of the total. We're about to exclude 6% of the voters based on a demographic (location), and for reasons of a technicality having nothing to do with who was allowed to vote or whether the votes were counted honestly. That's a precedent.
A demographic excluded on a technicality: Grandfather clauses, literacy tests, and this.
Here's my prediction. Obama gets the Democratic nomination. Hillary runs as McCain's VP. And the country slides even deeper into complete dysfunction.
Here's my prediction. Obama gets the Democratic nomination. Hillary runs as McCain's VP. And the country slides even deeper into complete dysfunction.
Your argument could have been summed up with"give her and her supporters the florida vote to shut them up". the problem is, she won't. she won't shut up until she's given the nomination. florida was not a "fair" election. the media lumps them together because they both broke the rules. i think it is you who doesn't think the public is smart enough to understand the difference.
This is an inane argument for the florida election. I guess you don't believe there should be a campaign at all. Or rules for that matter. If Hillary and Obama, at the beginning of the race, agreed not to campaign in all 50 states, who would benefit from that agreement. If your answer is Hillary, then you can't call Florida "fair". I know the point you're trying to make, you just don't make it very well.
Well let me try again. The valid (but insufficient) arguments against seating Florida focus on how it mis-measured the will of the people, not on the voluntary game of maneuvers the candidates had.
That will trumps any private pact or scheme engaged in by candidates to manipulate it (or fail to). It is sacrosanct. It is only impeachable by the argument that some who wished to vote in good faith did not.
Excellent explanation of what's happening! However, I couldn't disagree more. The "will of the people" was irreparably damaged by their states asshat party leaders. If a voter had another month to see, hear, and learn more about candidates, we simply don't know what those results would be. The Republican lead state legislature of FLA knowingly disenfranchised their voters. FLA's anger should be taken out on state leaders next election by voting their asses out knowing their general vote counts.
I'm only partially into your video - but I've found a debatable issue. I don't agree that as you say "the most important thing of all" is to have a vote that reflects the will of the people. What about RULES and POLICY. Without which we have anarchy. Society has gotten away from responsibility. MI and FL decided to break the rules set forth and therefore - no one (Dem. Nat. Party) has no obligation to fix the problem they states created.
Thanks for the thoughtful response. I believe those institutions exist to serve the spirit of democracy, and should be judged against that fundamental value.
But you may be interested to know, tbwesters, that Iowa and New Hampshire also violated the scheduling date rule (DNC rule 11.A) but the party decided not to punish them. So the rules are applied at the discretion of people--and those people should apply them with the greatest interest of democracy at heart.
Thank you Joe!! Been looking for that explanation. The fact that Hillary is fighting to keep the Michigan delegates is reason enough to vote for Obama! I'm voting for him anyway though. Thanks again for the down-to-earth explanation.
This video reflects the true nature of what is going on in Michigan. I am a Michigander and just the simple fact that HIllary is using her "political clout" to ramrod through Michigan insults all Michigan Democrats. Hillary is using "old time political tactics" to put her husband back in control in the White House. Unfortunately is using every tactic possible to ensure this happening. Even the Republicans are helping her win! Shame on you Hillary and Shame on the rigged election in Michigan!
I think Hillary won MI far and Square. Barrack told MI voters of him to vote uncommitted to support him. Obviously Richardson and Edwards voters did the same. The fact is more Hillary fans voted for her in MI. The only problem is you can't break up Obama/Edwards/Richardson numbers since they all voted uncommitted. But if Hillary alone gained more votes than the others combined then she pretty much won MI.
that makes me sad to know that my state held a rigged election. there was much talk on how the democratic nominees hadn't made it onto the primary election ballets- but i just assumed it was because i lived in west Michigan which is hugely republican. good to know the facts now.
If Clinton wins, the United States of America will be governed my two families for 20 years; possibly even 24 years....think about that....pretty scary if you ask me.
ok, so watching your video made me cry that I could come from a state of idiots and vampires. (lol). I really wish they would like redo or something, especially because this was my first primary, it kind of makes me depressed and unmotivated in terms of wanting to vote. I also wanted to say thank you for explaining the situation.
You should do what my other subscriber Lollipop12104 did and call Senator Carl Levin's office and politely tell him to stop fighting to seat the delegates. You can do this and the rest of us can't: (202) 224-6221
i think that the only problem with letting florida's delegates inand not doing another vote is that there probably were people that didn't vote because they thought their votes werent going to count so ppl that may have difficulty getting to the polls would not vote and a large group of them may be lower income black ppl, whom may have voted for obama. i dont know if clinton wouldve gotten more or less delegates or who wouldve won but i dont thinkthe elec. correctly represents the ppl of florida
Get video, Shaycarl knows how to pick 'em. I agree w/ you that MI shouldn't count, but i don't think you can count FL either. If you tell everyone that an election won't count, then some ppl, who would have otherwise voted, will decide to not waist their time. That election still doesn't represent the will of the ppl in FL. Its like playing a pre-season football game and then, months later, telling the losing team that the game really counted and that they miss the playoffs bc of it. ItsNot Fair
Hitlery wants to count votes when she's the only candidate on a ballot. It's been done before in Hitler's Germany, Pinochet's Chile, Nutjob's N. Korea, Stalin's USSR, Marcos' Phillipines, Hillary's Michigan & Hillary's Florida. Say no to the 28 year occupation of the executive branch by the Clinton/Bush crime syndicate. It's time for a change, a big change.
Yaaay! Listen Lolli, call Senator Carl Levin's office and politely tell him to stop fighting to seat the delegates. You can do this and the rest of us can't: (202) 224-6221
I would just like to say that I greatly appreciate what your doing. Im a viewer from Shaycarl and he recommended your vlog for election news and I was not dissappointed, thanks for the videos, keep them going :).
I was surprised that you didn't mention the fact that Hillary actively campaigned in florida after saying she (like the rest of the democrats) wouldn't. Being the only candidate to spend money in that state, don't you think that would have a very major effect on the votes? I say don't count florida either.
There are also claims that Obama spent >$1million in bleedover broadcast markets.
I haven't looked closely at either because I don't think private candidate pacts have a big role to play in whether a government has held a legitimate election.
Neither Florida nor the DNC needed the candidates to promise anything, so if their unnecessary private promises were broken, the consequences should be the embarrassment of the candidate and not punishment of the state or its voters.
I guess I agree to an extent. Maybe the media should just be giving it more attention though. No reason for a candidate to get too embarrassed if it is never brought up.
Though I do wonder how the DNC expects to be taken seriously in the future if it is not willing to back up the threats it makes.
Well, according to the rules and bylaws, any candidate that would have "campaigned" in those states were to face sanctions. Exactly what they were, I don't know. The only type of campaigning that was allowed was fundraisers. Which, like I said before, what exactly is the difference between a fundraiser and a rally other than taking up money? You are basically campaigning to get support of votes and asking for voters to dig into their pockets too. Which is what Hillary did.
I feel that Hillary's "fund raisers" were just loopholes that I think that the DNC should have left out. In fact, I found it sneaky of her to have fund raisers in a state where the votes didn't count anyway. Heck, I made a joke saying that is why Florida wanted their vote counted, they gave her money too!
I just feel that Hillary's little fund raisers were worse than the one ad that Obama couldn't avoid posting on TV and I feel like the DNC showed favoritism to the Clintons. As fucking usual...
Counting Florida delegates won't reflect the will of the people, since that election didn't refelct, and cannot be said to have reflected the will of the people. Why? Because who's going to turnout to vote when they've been told by their party that their vote doesn't count? Voters were disenfranchised from the beginning, to count only the votes of those who voted anyway would be disenfranchising those who stayed at home all over again.
Obama Pulled his own name off the ballot!
HurricaneDj 3 years ago
I think it's funnier than heck that the DNC have put themselves in this position.
How they couldn't have seen this coming is beyond me.
And this once again demonstrates the essence of the democrat party.
They come out and SET HARD RULES, then they want to change the rules, why is that ok?
And wouldn't call them vampires, mindless zombies yes, vampires no.
---------
Nice Starry night cupboard BTW. You do that yourself?
AJAX556 3 years ago
HITLARY--CAN'T BEAT McBUSH SHE CAN'T EVEN BEAT A GUY WITH A NAME LIKE OBAMA..Obama08
winterice67 3 years ago
hey joe.thanks so much. that was very clear information. i wonder why so less views. i am from canada.
I have three questions:
1) Why were the party people so keen on holding elections early?
2) Why do you call Florida as fair election too? Without campaigning people don't know the candidates and their ideas either. It is like choosing a gift from unopened boxes. This is not fair either.
3) Why didn't states hold their primaries again quickly after campaigning?
ziaulhasan 3 years ago
Hi Ziaul
1) The first states get the most attention from the candidates so everybody competes to be early.
2) Florida held an election where everyone was on the ballot and everyone could vote. That's enough for me to call it fair. They didn't campaign in Alaska either, but nobody thinks that election was unfair. Voters had all the information they needed.
3) They should have. It's disgraceful they didn't. Part of it was the cost, and another was getting everyone to agree on how to do it.
JoeFelice 3 years ago
thanks man..i appreciate it.
ziaulhasan 3 years ago
Thanks Joe.
Dastutmirleid 3 years ago
Come again. Why did Obama put his name on the ballot in Florida but not in Michigan?
Dastutmirleid 3 years ago
First everybody was on both ballots. Then the candidates decided not to campaign in either state. Then most of the candidates (not Hillary or Dennis) wanted to get off both ballots. Michigan let them. Florida did not.
JoeFelice 3 years ago
A couple of things I want to say. After watching your video, I was like, just let them both count. Now I say, just let Florida's.
There are just a couple of flaws in your argument and a few statistics that should have been mentioned.
Instead of posting them here, I will send you an email over the YouTube method.
BTW, I love your Van Gogh painting and I am a painter as well!!!
DameDiabolique 3 years ago
you are more than right even if i think that even florida election wasnt fair because no candidates campaigned there.and you know how much it can affect the results.reflect the will of the people?and what about all the people who stayed at home thinking their wont be counted.
dadybok 3 years ago
Unfortunately, they lose. I'm not particularly happy about any solution, I just think that one's best.
JoeFelice 3 years ago
I understand what you are saying, but I am probably the few people who disagree with the fact that "none of the candidates campaigned in Florida." Barack Obama posted an ad that is technically considered campaigning. However, the big insult is Hillary Clinton's 4 fundraisers. Of course fundraisers in the DNC rules were allowed, but think about it. What exactly is the difference? Hell, it's the same thing only you are just asking for money.
So technically they did "campaign" in Florida.
DameDiabolique 3 years ago
In addition, Hillary planned and held a rally in Florida only minutes after the primary ended. THAT SHOULD BE AGAINST THE RULES ITSELF. She planned a campaign even there before the primary and held it afterwards. Plus the fundraisers.
That is worse than Obama's 1 National TV Ad. She should have been sanctioned for that. The DNC are fucked up, end of story.
DameDiabolique 3 years ago
no candidates had the opurtunity to express their views.clinton was the inevitable apparent nominee but she lost this status when people got to know her opponent thanks to a well organised campaign.and it s known that every where he goes,he does better .he is a illinois senator.are you sure all voters heard about either him or his position on issues before?and what about those who didnt vote thinking it was pointless?.this deal struck by the dnc is a political stunt and doesnt make any sense.
dadybok 3 years ago
Thanks Joe. I'm a Canadian living in France, trying to figure out this mess. Yours is the clearest explanation I've heard or read anywhere. And I think you make a valid distinction between the two states. No one who understands this can accept Clinton's position on the FL and MICH delegates. The problem, as you say, is that folks are confused largely because the mainstream media isn't doing it's job.
baillar100 3 years ago
Glad to be of service :)
JoeFelice 3 years ago
Titles are not given in unsanctioned fights.
dustynbones 3 years ago
Paragraph 6 of the August 28th version isn't on the August 31st version. I know you and many other people are rooting for Obama but I look at this as it unfolds and I find it very difficult to watch any news network. They all exclude valuable facts and that shouldn't be how we decide who our next president should be.
JoshGood28 3 years ago
Josh, you haven't said this, but I take it you're making a case for seating the delegates 105-67 and 73-0. Or maybe some other configuration, but if so, you're basing your opinion on a document that is not part of the DNC bylaws.
The Rules committee will settle this matter hopefully on the 31st, and they will do it through the authority of the bylaws. Not through a voluntary candidate pledge that the DNC never signed.
JoeFelice 3 years ago
Paragraph 5 of the August 31 2007 document.
JoshGood28 3 years ago
Very interesting, Josh. I'm looking at an August 28 version received by the FL Dem Party. I guess different candidates used different wordings.
In any case, whichever version is more official, the pledges were made by the candidates, and candidates don't decide these matters.
JoeFelice 3 years ago
I believe Hillary signed the August 31st version as did John Edwards. I go to great lengths to find the truth. I find it unfortunate that the democratic base at large is robustly misinformed. The candidates agreed not to campaign or participate. The definition of the word participate and how it relates to Florida and Michigan is really the only argument to be had. Leaving your name on a ballot is hardly participating in a state primary.
JoshGood28 3 years ago
That would be paragraph 5. It says nothing about stripping delegates or popular votes.
JoshGood28 3 years ago
Where in the DNC signed four state pledge does it explain that the votes and delegates will be stricken from the process?
JoshGood28 3 years ago
Paragraph 6, but the pledge is written in the voice of the candidates, and doesn't bind the DNC.
My understanding is the DNC can penalise at their discretion.
JoeFelice 3 years ago
My understanding is that Florida didn't allow withdrawal, even though the candidates (other than Hillary and Dennis) wanted to get off.
What are you talking about with August 5th? I haven't heard anything like that. The DNC is going to meet on May 31st and decide how to seat Michigan and Florida's delegates.
JoeFelice 3 years ago
Not that I can talk our prime minister was only elected by the parliamentary labour party!
janamills 3 years ago
What about the people who didn't vote in Florida because they knew it wouldn't count?
BrocTheMagnifico 3 years ago
Unfortunately, they lose.
JoeFelice 3 years ago
I Think Hillary should get all the Michigan delegates and her share of the Florida delegates. It is Obama's fault his name was not on the ballot in Michigan. Do not disenfranchise the people of Michigan and Florida. The right to vote belongs to the people not the DNC. Fuck the DNC!
Ataxicabdriver 3 years ago
Regarding your last sentence, the right to vote in primaries is not constitutionally protected. The DNC actually *can* do whatever they want.
My argument is based on what I think would reflect the most honestly democratic count, and I exclude Michigan because their result truly misrepresents the wishes of their citizens.
I don't care what Obama or Hillary did. It's not their job to run the elections. Michigan shouldn't have held an election with half the ballot missing.
JoeFelice 3 years ago
I'm voting for McCain. I may never vote for another Democrat ever.
Ataxicabdriver 3 years ago
That's definitely not what Hillary wants you to do.
JoeFelice 3 years ago
this's my first comment on a vid, but its very necessary. I'm an australian following usa politics atm, and i recently heard wierd things about florida and michigan. googling it returned millions of discussions and reports about consequences of a "rule breaking", but none that simply explained it clearly & concisely.
this video did tho. it told me everything i wanted to kno, wasnt biased, made perfect sense, and u spoke both confidently and eloquently. im quite impressed. thank u, & keep it up.
themoojuice 3 years ago
Thanks moo!
Stick around cuz there's plenty more!
JoeFelice 3 years ago
Joe,
You should really read the fifteenth amendment. By law Florida and Michigan will count. Obama exercised poor judgement by taking away the opportunity for Michigan to vote for him. Regardless of what they agreed upon, the Constitution supercedes the DNC.
JoshGood28 3 years ago
Thanks Josh, but primaries are private affairs held by non-governmental entities and they can exclude whomever they want.
If the 15th were in effect they would have to allow Republicans to vote as well, and many states do not.
JoeFelice 3 years ago
Republicans can vote. They have every right to re-register as a democrat if they want a democrat nominated. The Fifteenth Amendment states: "The right of the citizens of the United States to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on account of race,color, or previous condition of servitude." Those votes legally count even if there is no re-vote. Anything less would be unconstitutional. The DNC violated the constitution.
JoshGood28 3 years ago
Josh, I promise you that the entire political class, the media, the academic community, and the Democratic Party did not all have the entire concept of voting rights slip their mind.
It's not an election for public office, it's for a private office called "nominee". The 15th does not apply.
JoeFelice 3 years ago
Michigan wouldn't be an issue, had Edwards, Richardson, and Obama not conspired to jump off of the ballot in an open election. Dumb move. It is important see where voters stand. The Fifteenth Amendment always applies to the ballot box local or otherwise. There isn't a clause that says anything about primaries or DNC violations. Why did the voters even vote? They count.
JoshGood28 3 years ago
I totally agree with you. The only thing I'd add is that while the DNC punished both states equally, Florida is led by a Republican governor and Republican legislature. THEY made the choice; the Democrats couldn't override it (and there is evidence that they tried to convince the other side not to do it). In Michigan, the governor is a Democrat and the Legislature mostly is. So the argument of "they knew the rules and broke them anyway" applies to MI Democrats, but not so much to FL Democrats...
jennajayroe 3 years ago
!st let me applaud u 4 your excellent speaking skills and simple explanation 4 those who just don't get it!
Now I have 2 let u have it!
#1-breaking the rules is breaking the rules. I don't think Florida's vote sohlud count at all & I don't think they deserve a re-do.What kind of message does that send? U "nananana-look at us-we're doing it & there's nothing U can do about it." (tongue sticking out) So we reward that by saying, "ok, we're sorry, we should have let U break the rules?" come on!
mismindles 3 years ago
#2-the reason voter turn out was so great in Florida is b/c there was another issue on the ballot. Barack is the kind of guy who has 2 work twice as hard as Hillary (well, he had 2 in the beginning) 2 let people know who he is & what he stands 4. Hillary was a household name so to just give it to her when he didn't get a chance to campaign there is unfair to him and favors Clinton.
mismindles 3 years ago
#3 U give FL & MI a chance 2 revote it'll make their vote MORE important than when they decided 2 break the rules. That was their WHOLE PURPOSE & U want 2 reward them & give them the power they were seeking all along? I'm not against letting them sit in on the convention but don't count their votes! What better lesson than 2 ground a kid 2 the yard & then make them go sit outside & watch all the other kids that behave-have fun? U break the rules-U get a spanking! Wow, what a concept!
mismindles 3 years ago
Lastly, I have 2 disagree w/ U b/c the will of the people is NOT more important than following the law & rules. BEFORE EVERY1 flips out-hear me out:
I value the power 2 vote & I think the will of the people is important, but so is following rules & the law. It sets a VERY poor example not only 4 the adults in this country that played by the rules, but also 4 kids in this country who don't get enough quality life lessons these days. Everything shouldn't be arbitrary.
mismindles 3 years ago
Thanks for all that mismindles! They won't flip out because most of them agree with you.
The primary is one long election in which Florida is 6% of the total. We're about to exclude 6% of the voters based on a demographic (location), and for reasons of a technicality having nothing to do with who was allowed to vote or whether the votes were counted honestly. That's a precedent.
A demographic excluded on a technicality: Grandfather clauses, literacy tests, and this.
JoeFelice 3 years ago
Here's my prediction. Obama gets the Democratic nomination. Hillary runs as McCain's VP. And the country slides even deeper into complete dysfunction.
MasterOfSparks 3 years ago
You're quite the firebrand on my videos today, Marq. Not that there's anything wrong with that. Welcome to the conversation.
JoeFelice 3 years ago
Here's my prediction. Obama gets the Democratic nomination. Hillary runs as McCain's VP. And the country slides even deeper into complete dysfunction.
MasterOfSparks 3 years ago
Your argument could have been summed up with"give her and her supporters the florida vote to shut them up". the problem is, she won't. she won't shut up until she's given the nomination. florida was not a "fair" election. the media lumps them together because they both broke the rules. i think it is you who doesn't think the public is smart enough to understand the difference.
rhoddin 3 years ago
This is an inane argument for the florida election. I guess you don't believe there should be a campaign at all. Or rules for that matter. If Hillary and Obama, at the beginning of the race, agreed not to campaign in all 50 states, who would benefit from that agreement. If your answer is Hillary, then you can't call Florida "fair". I know the point you're trying to make, you just don't make it very well.
rhoddin 3 years ago
Well let me try again. The valid (but insufficient) arguments against seating Florida focus on how it mis-measured the will of the people, not on the voluntary game of maneuvers the candidates had.
That will trumps any private pact or scheme engaged in by candidates to manipulate it (or fail to). It is sacrosanct. It is only impeachable by the argument that some who wished to vote in good faith did not.
And if that's inane, then I don't want to be ane.
JoeFelice 3 years ago
Excellent explanation of what's happening! However, I couldn't disagree more. The "will of the people" was irreparably damaged by their states asshat party leaders. If a voter had another month to see, hear, and learn more about candidates, we simply don't know what those results would be. The Republican lead state legislature of FLA knowingly disenfranchised their voters. FLA's anger should be taken out on state leaders next election by voting their asses out knowing their general vote counts.
Bolgernow 3 years ago
I'm only partially into your video - but I've found a debatable issue. I don't agree that as you say "the most important thing of all" is to have a vote that reflects the will of the people. What about RULES and POLICY. Without which we have anarchy. Society has gotten away from responsibility. MI and FL decided to break the rules set forth and therefore - no one (Dem. Nat. Party) has no obligation to fix the problem they states created.
tbwesters 3 years ago
Thanks for the thoughtful response. I believe those institutions exist to serve the spirit of democracy, and should be judged against that fundamental value.
But you may be interested to know, tbwesters, that Iowa and New Hampshire also violated the scheduling date rule (DNC rule 11.A) but the party decided not to punish them. So the rules are applied at the discretion of people--and those people should apply them with the greatest interest of democracy at heart.
JoeFelice 3 years ago
Very well explained. Thank you.
Alefyah 3 years ago
Thank you Joe!! Been looking for that explanation. The fact that Hillary is fighting to keep the Michigan delegates is reason enough to vote for Obama! I'm voting for him anyway though. Thanks again for the down-to-earth explanation.
sullivanmc 4 years ago 2
This video reflects the true nature of what is going on in Michigan. I am a Michigander and just the simple fact that HIllary is using her "political clout" to ramrod through Michigan insults all Michigan Democrats. Hillary is using "old time political tactics" to put her husband back in control in the White House. Unfortunately is using every tactic possible to ensure this happening. Even the Republicans are helping her win! Shame on you Hillary and Shame on the rigged election in Michigan!
ibpoew 4 years ago
I think Hillary won MI far and Square. Barrack told MI voters of him to vote uncommitted to support him. Obviously Richardson and Edwards voters did the same. The fact is more Hillary fans voted for her in MI. The only problem is you can't break up Obama/Edwards/Richardson numbers since they all voted uncommitted. But if Hillary alone gained more votes than the others combined then she pretty much won MI.
Maserati777 4 years ago
Wow just shows what a two faced bitch Hilary is. Ron Paul FTW. Obama second choice...I guess
jem7992 4 years ago
that makes me sad to know that my state held a rigged election. there was much talk on how the democratic nominees hadn't made it onto the primary election ballets- but i just assumed it was because i lived in west Michigan which is hugely republican. good to know the facts now.
bekajane12 4 years ago
Dennis Kucinich didn't take his name off of Michigan either.
IllWillForYou 4 years ago
True. Cutting room floor, as they say.
JoeFelice 4 years ago
Bull. Michiagan and Florida should not be counted. If anything they should do a re election. GO OBAMA!!!!!!!
October1591 4 years ago
Accually, 28 years to a possible 32 years if you take into account George H. W. Bush.....!
snake430 4 years ago
If Clinton wins, the United States of America will be governed my two families for 20 years; possibly even 24 years....think about that....pretty scary if you ask me.
snake430 4 years ago
ok, so watching your video made me cry that I could come from a state of idiots and vampires. (lol). I really wish they would like redo or something, especially because this was my first primary, it kind of makes me depressed and unmotivated in terms of wanting to vote. I also wanted to say thank you for explaining the situation.
zombiesxlovexbrians 4 years ago
Thanks, zombies, it was nothing personal!
You should do what my other subscriber Lollipop12104 did and call Senator Carl Levin's office and politely tell him to stop fighting to seat the delegates. You can do this and the rest of us can't: (202) 224-6221
JoeFelice 4 years ago
To Mannymd, 07kane, and other folks with disenfranchisement arguments about Florida - thanks for commenting!
I wish I had said more about Florida in the video, but I do share some counterpoints in the earlier comments. Cheers
JoeFelice 4 years ago
I'm from Florida.... and we always make fun of ourselves for fucking up everything, from training the terrorists for 9/11 to fucking up elections...
I'm proud to come from a state of retards.
GlassLikeWater 4 years ago
i think that the only problem with letting florida's delegates inand not doing another vote is that there probably were people that didn't vote because they thought their votes werent going to count so ppl that may have difficulty getting to the polls would not vote and a large group of them may be lower income black ppl, whom may have voted for obama. i dont know if clinton wouldve gotten more or less delegates or who wouldve won but i dont thinkthe elec. correctly represents the ppl of florida
Mannymd 4 years ago
Get video, Shaycarl knows how to pick 'em. I agree w/ you that MI shouldn't count, but i don't think you can count FL either. If you tell everyone that an election won't count, then some ppl, who would have otherwise voted, will decide to not waist their time. That election still doesn't represent the will of the ppl in FL. Its like playing a pre-season football game and then, months later, telling the losing team that the game really counted and that they miss the playoffs bc of it. ItsNot Fair
07kane 4 years ago
great video!
It really helped on clearing things up.
Thanks.
tinkertoytulipboy 4 years ago
You bet man. I see you're 18, who's gonna get your first vote?
JoeFelice 4 years ago
I'm not sure...
still trying to make up my mind.
I don't think I have researched it enough to have a good solid opinion, YET.
Working on it. haha.
tinkertoytulipboy 4 years ago
Hitlery wants to count votes when she's the only candidate on a ballot. It's been done before in Hitler's Germany, Pinochet's Chile, Nutjob's N. Korea, Stalin's USSR, Marcos' Phillipines, Hillary's Michigan & Hillary's Florida. Say no to the 28 year occupation of the executive branch by the Clinton/Bush crime syndicate. It's time for a change, a big change.
dayglowgreendoor 4 years ago
I live in Michigan, and Hillary will NOT be getting my vote. I really enjoy your blog, found you through Shay. Now i'm a subscriber :D
Lollipop12104 4 years ago
Yaaay! Listen Lolli, call Senator Carl Levin's office and politely tell him to stop fighting to seat the delegates. You can do this and the rest of us can't: (202) 224-6221
JoeFelice 4 years ago
You can count on me!! Thanks Joe :)
Lollipop12104 4 years ago
Hahahah, "Michigan idiots brigade".
Did you have to sully "brigade" with that remark? :o)
ShiekUrBooty 4 years ago
:D Sorry, it started out as "retard squad" but I decided that was too tasteless.
JoeFelice 4 years ago
I would just like to say that I greatly appreciate what your doing. Im a viewer from Shaycarl and he recommended your vlog for election news and I was not dissappointed, thanks for the videos, keep them going :).
hadassacullen 4 years ago
Thanks so much, Hadassa, I will!
And big ups to my friend Shay for the surprise plug.
JoeFelice 4 years ago
Hahahaha, great video Joe.
I spend quite a bit of time in Michigan, so it's with no big fanfare that I hear and understand what you're saying.
Thanks for keeping us informed, you're doing a great job.
ShiekUrBooty 4 years ago
I was surprised that you didn't mention the fact that Hillary actively campaigned in florida after saying she (like the rest of the democrats) wouldn't. Being the only candidate to spend money in that state, don't you think that would have a very major effect on the votes? I say don't count florida either.
usnationalist 4 years ago
There are also claims that Obama spent >$1million in bleedover broadcast markets.
I haven't looked closely at either because I don't think private candidate pacts have a big role to play in whether a government has held a legitimate election.
Neither Florida nor the DNC needed the candidates to promise anything, so if their unnecessary private promises were broken, the consequences should be the embarrassment of the candidate and not punishment of the state or its voters.
JoeFelice 4 years ago
I guess I agree to an extent. Maybe the media should just be giving it more attention though. No reason for a candidate to get too embarrassed if it is never brought up.
Though I do wonder how the DNC expects to be taken seriously in the future if it is not willing to back up the threats it makes.
usnationalist 4 years ago
Well, according to the rules and bylaws, any candidate that would have "campaigned" in those states were to face sanctions. Exactly what they were, I don't know. The only type of campaigning that was allowed was fundraisers. Which, like I said before, what exactly is the difference between a fundraiser and a rally other than taking up money? You are basically campaigning to get support of votes and asking for voters to dig into their pockets too. Which is what Hillary did.
DameDiabolique 3 years ago
I feel that Hillary's "fund raisers" were just loopholes that I think that the DNC should have left out. In fact, I found it sneaky of her to have fund raisers in a state where the votes didn't count anyway. Heck, I made a joke saying that is why Florida wanted their vote counted, they gave her money too!
I just feel that Hillary's little fund raisers were worse than the one ad that Obama couldn't avoid posting on TV and I feel like the DNC showed favoritism to the Clintons. As fucking usual...
DameDiabolique 3 years ago
Gee, how do intelligent people get themselves in such a mess?
Ah, it's politicians - no wonder!
Very interesting. Thanks Joe.
saikoza 4 years ago
Counting Florida delegates won't reflect the will of the people, since that election didn't refelct, and cannot be said to have reflected the will of the people. Why? Because who's going to turnout to vote when they've been told by their party that their vote doesn't count? Voters were disenfranchised from the beginning, to count only the votes of those who voted anyway would be disenfranchising those who stayed at home all over again.
sctld 4 years ago
Thanks for the valid counter-argument, sctld. Facts I find mitigating:
* The FL Dems announced the delegation would be assembled and encouraged their members to vote.
* At 1.7 mil, turnout was a record high, indicating the state party was viewed with credibility.
* There's no evidence to indicate that those who stayed home favored any candidate.
Disenfranchisement occurred, but that does not invalidate elections a priori. There is a threshhold of degree, which I do not think was met.
JoeFelice 4 years ago