MoveOn.org - Conservative Counter-Protest - Nov 13, 2009

[Darusdei]

force banks and all the banks cried "no we don't want to do these loan" hahahaa :D give me a break...

[2DumbKidsVideo]

@Darusdei Yes, in some instances banks were forced to loan under threat of litigation. However, what I generally refer to as "force" is actually probably more along the lines of "encouragement". (cont).

[2DumbKidsVideo]

@2DumbKidsVideo Essentially what Fannie and Freddie did, with the use of many different vehicles (IE: The 40 Year Mortgage), was guarantee banks / mortgage companies that they would buy up any loan regardless of that loans risk, which in turn encouraged banks to lend to buyers that had little probability of repaying the loan, borrowers that the banks would never have lent to in an unregulated free market to begin with.

[2DumbKidsVideo]

@2DumbKidsVideo Basically the government said to the banks... "don't worry, we'll bail you out if you fail"... and they did. So why would banks have any incentive to lend responsibly. It's like parents buying a kid a new car after that kid gets a DUI. What incentive does the child have to act responsibly if he knows his parents are going to bail him out all the time? Only in this situation it's worse, because the parents (IE: gov) is buying the kids (banks) beer.

[zenbrenzz]

keep trying dumbazz..u know what i say is true.."me think he doth protest too much"

[2DumbKidsVideo]

@zenbrenzz Ya, facts are overrated I guess. I should just start "feeling" my way through life.

[zenbrenzz]

@2DumbKidsVideo How's about f'ing off, Sarah Palin

[2DumbKidsVideo]

@zenbrenzz Wow. Good one.

[zenbrenzz]

Hilarious...the tea party has NO ORGANIZATION sponsoring or organizing them????

Ludicrous, pal...the tea party has been manipulated and secretly organized by CORPORATE America all along..who benefits from these morons with their racist signs??? BIG BUSINESS..who wants the GOP in power and wants NOTHING for the little guy. The current financial mess was all begun under your GOD, Emporer Bu$h...BUT...ONLY NOW do you protest, when a decent pres tries to repair the damage?? FOOLS

[2DumbKidsVideo]

@zenbrenzz This comment is so misguided I don't even know where to begin. First of all, the TEA party is completely against all government bailouts and government intervention in the free market, therefore your conspiracy theory doesn't hold up. I know several people involved in organizing them as well, and none of them have any corporate ties. (cont)

[2DumbKidsVideo]

@zenbrenzz Second of all, it's obvious that you haven't actually been to one of these events and that you simply get all of your news from Rachael Maddow, because I have been to several, and never seen any racist signs or heard any derogatory comments. (cont).

[2DumbKidsVideo]

@zenbrenzz Third of all, the DNC doesn't stand for the little guy. Nearly every position the DNC takes in its platform hurts the little guy and supports big business. All of the wealthiest Democrats have interest in Big Business. Al Gore got all of his money from Tobacco. (Cont)

[2DumbKidsVideo]

@2DumbKidsVideo Even if their intentions are good, you can't base public policy on intentions. You have to base it on outcome. I'm an economist, so I can go into great detail on anything you'd like (minimum wage, price fixing, Health Care, Welfare etc.). Based on your comments you haven't even taken any basic micro / macro so it will be a slam dunk if you'd like to continue. (cont)

[2DumbKidsVideo]

@zenbrenzz Fourth, you don't know me, so don't presume that I worship a Rino wuss like George Bush that turns his back on the Free Market.

Fifth, Obama isn't repairing anything. He's adding insult to injury that he helped create when he was litigating for Acorn and the DNC (under the direction of Barney Frank and Clinton) to force banks to make loans to people that they wouldn't normally have lent to (based on poor credit scores). (cont)

[2DumbKidsVideo]

@zenbrenzz They created multiple lending vehicles (such as 40 yr mortgages) and forced banks to make bad loans. The "Little Guy" that put everything down on a house in principal lost it all when the market crashed. How is that compassionate? How did that help the "Little Guy" in the long run. Who do you think is ultimately going to pay for the slush fund stimulus bill? Health care reform? Where do you think that money comes from?

[2DumbKidsVideo]

@zenbrenzz You might want to study up on voting records and the platforms while you're researching economics too. You might be interested to know that the KKK was founded by Democrats. The Republicans freed the slaves (Lincoln). They also upheld the Dred Scott Decission (return freed slaves to south), Japanese Internment Camps, Margret Sanger (D) admittedly created planned parenthood to eliminate the black races, Native American Removal Acts, and voted against all of the Civil Rights acts.

[2DumbKidsVideo]

@zenbrenzz In fact, the late Senator Robert Byrd (D) recruited more than 150 members for the KKK . And the democrat platform to this day, continues to keep minorities and low skilled workers poor. (I can go into great detail).

[SamWiseGingy]

Tea Party = Rand Paul = Racist

It's divine, not devine.

More of that Death Panel crap.

[2DumbKidsVideo]

@SamWiseGingy Democrats = Founded KKK = Racist... Democrats = Voted against all 3 civil rights acts = Racists... Democrats = Supported the Dred Scott Decision = Racist... Democrats = Spear Headed the Trail of Tears = Racists... Democrats = Created Japanese Internment Camps = Racist... Democrat politicians = Call black people the "N" word multiple times in the public realm over the last year = Racist... see, we can all play the race card!!! YAY!

[MsJayri]

hey guess wut my fiance & i & 2 others went to a tea party protest AND SHOOK UP EVRY1 OF YOU GUYS!!LMBO ITS ON UTUBE U SHUD C IT, THR WAS ONLY 4 OF US OK & WE HAD THM PISSD OFF & THEY CUDNT EVN MAKE A LEGIT. AGRUMNT THA WE DDNT HAVE AN ANSWR 2, & AT THE END OF THE DAY ALL THEY CUD DO IS HUF&PUF....TYPE IN "THINGS GET TESTY ST.L TPRTY"

[2DumbKidsVideo]

@MsJayri Wow, Your effort to put together a complete thought / sentence is absolutely pitiful. In fact it's downright painful to read. Grammar? Spelling? Your use of CAPS LOCK and #'s instead of letters? Where do I begin?

I'm debating whether or not making fun of you further will make me feel better... I'll get back to you. In either case, do yourself a favor and don't try to debate me. It would be like Mike Tyson fighting an infant.

[schindelerium]

But MsJayri is right. I was another one of the counter-protesters, and it's true: no one could back up their beliefs. No one could say anything about Obama's massive tax cuts for the middle class except for "SHUT UP THAT'S NOT TRUE", nor was anyone able to tell us what part of the Constitution forbids the Health Care law.

Your "mighty grassroots movement" is the same thing as Ron Paul's Revolution, and it'll fall just as hard. Wait till November. You may be loud, but you're still a minority.

[2DumbKidsVideo]

@schindelerium I highly doubt that, but that's neither here nor there.

First of all, there's a big difference between tax cuts and tax incentives. There have been no tax cuts, merely ineffective tax incentives.

[2DumbKidsVideo]

Unemployment will continue to grow into the double digits (along with inflation) because it doesn't make sense for a small business owner to fork over $15k - $100k (or whatever) for a $3k tax credit during times of uncertainty... and rightfully so when thinking of the taxes they will most certainly see in the near future due to this health care bill. You're obviously not a small business owner.

[2DumbKidsVideo]

I realize that Democrats have tried to claim victory over job growth over the last month, but despite the cyclical employment created by Census workers, unemployment / underemployment has continued to grow. Fact.

[2DumbKidsVideo]

Second, Congress may have the Constitutional ability to regulate interstate trade under the Commerce Clause, however it is unprecedented for them to regulate economic "in-activity" (ie: mandated health care). Not only is the regulation of "in-activity" unconstitutional, if allowed, it will be "Pandora's Box" of precedent for the future.

[2DumbKidsVideo]

For instance, in order to test the waters for the prohibition of Marijuana, machine guns were unconstitutionally outlawed with federal "stamps" (by Democrats I might add). The federal stamps were simply never issued. This very case was used to create "Marijuana Stamps" (also by Democrats, go figure). Perhaps you've heard of them? Possessing the plant was forbidden without the possession of a "marijuana stamp", but they simply quit issuing the stamps.

[2DumbKidsVideo]

As for your theories regarding conservatives, we'll have to wait until Nov. to know for sure, but I hope you're wrong for both of our sakes. The deciding factor will be whether or not the TEA party divides conservatives between the Republican party and third parties.

Don't think for a second that Obama won by a land slide, he did so on the margins.

[schindelerium]

On the margins? A 53% majority is extremely substantial in presidential elections. And look at the electoral votes. 365 to 173 is not a marginal victory.

And the stamps have nothing to do with this issue. Unless you can prove that they do.

[2DumbKidsVideo]

@schindelerium How about we debate the electoral votes some other time as discussion of the subject strays from your original point?

[2DumbKidsVideo]

@2DumbKidsVideo

The stamps have everything to do with this. The point of the stamp story is that "precedent" is everything. Assuming that you have given your real age on your profile, I'm guessing you haven't taken many law classes (if any at all). Who knows, maybe you have... but my point is, when you do you will most likely study the outcomes of prior court rulings, and not constitutional law itself. Hence the term "Legislating from the bench".

[schindelerium]

Of course this works on precedent, it's a federal law. This still doesn't prove how the stamps relate to this particular issue at all. And since it's a law now at the highest level, this means the Tenth Amendment no longer applies. And none of this proves why the bill is inherently wrong.

I haven't taken any law classes, true, but I have taken a class on the American Government and was a straight-A student in it. Which means I am familiar with the Constitution and what it entails.

[2DumbKidsVideo]

I'm sorry, but your Freshman 1301 "Intro to American Government" doesn't really impress me that much. Look, I'm no constitutional law student (I'm working on my Masters in Econ), and I'm sure you're a really bright kid, but let's be reasonable.

[2DumbKidsVideo]

@2DumbKidsVideo How many times do I have to explain the stamp story to you? Future court cases will be determined by how the supreme court rules on whether or not the federal government has the authority to regulate "Economic Inactivity" through the commerce clause. It's extremely relevant.

[2DumbKidsVideo]

@2DumbKidsVideo What I am explaining to you is exactly what the State of Virginia is suing the federal government for. I know this because I was on a conference call with Virginia's Attorney General Ken Cuccinelli a few days ago and he explained the entire case in great detail.

[2DumbKidsVideo]

@2DumbKidsVideo It's not a question of whether or not the federal government has overstepped it's bounds or if the law is unconstitutional... it really comes down to whether or not the supreme court is sympathetic towards the current administration and their decision will effect future supreme court decisions.

[2DumbKidsVideo]

@2DumbKidsVideo I'm beginning to think that plenty of people at the TEA party that you attended were more than capable of explaining these things to you and that you simply did not hear (or chose not to listen) to anything that they said.

[schindelerium]

Okay, since you just won't drop this red herring, I'll just make my final statement.

The Great Depression taught us a lesson of what happens when the Government maintains inactivity when the economy needs stimulated. Pure capitalism failed. Read J.K. Galbraith's "The Affluent Society" and learn the vital relationship between the federal government and private enterprise. While you're at it, take a course in logic. Goodbye now.

[2DumbKidsVideo]

@schindelerium Actually, the great depression was not created by government inactivity, it had a lot to do with contracting the money supply and a run on the bank (IE: Poor Monetary Policy on behalf of the FEDERAL government). The depression was made deeper and wider by further government intervention (IE: When FDR was working on his 4th presidential term). I suggest you take a few courses in Economics (and History for that matter).

[2DumbKidsVideo]

If this bill goes uncontested by the 14+ states that have filed law suits against the federal government, Congress will essentially have limitless power (unconstitutional or not) to be able to force you to do anything.

[schindelerium]

What? That doesn't make any sense. You're using a logical fallacy called "The Slippery Slope", which states that if this is allowed, suddenly a whole bunch of bad stuff will follow even though there's no proof that it will. The Government already funds a TON of social programs, not the least of which is education, and they have nowhere near anything that could be considered "total control". Is adding one more social program really going to create another Soviet Russia? Seriously, now.

[2DumbKidsVideo]

@schindelerium Ah, the old "Logical Fallacy", my favorite. Actually, it's a very valid point. I'm not saying that anything will happen tomorrow, but trust me, this revolutionizes the Constitution's commerce clause and WILL totally change how laws are created.

[2DumbKidsVideo]

@2DumbKidsVideo We're not just adding another social program here. Until now, the federal government has never mandated that you buy any good or service. As I stated before, this now regulates "Economic In-Activity". That is, even if you do not wish to purchase health care, you must do so by penalty of law. This has never been done before and doing so will create precedent in the future for laws that you and I never could have imagined.

[schindelerium]

You have a point. However, after doing some more research, I was wrong about the "being fined" thing. There is no direct penalty for not accepting the health insurance. Along with the health insurance there is a tax break offered. If one doesn't accept the government insurance, the tax break is in turn taken away. It's paying into a system, much like medicare, and the whole thing is worked through private insurance companies. The federal money is there to allow the working people to afford it.

[2DumbKidsVideo]

@schindelerium Do some more research. You are going to be required to prove that you have insurance when you file your tax return. Failure to do so will result in penalties from the IRS. I won't even get into the "adverse selection" problems that this will create.

Let me ask you a question. Do you think that a program that requires the federal government to be an even bigger middle man between you and private insurance companies will increase competition and lower costs? If so, how?

[schindelerium]

And by the way, you're already paying for uninsured Americans through their emergency room visits. Hospitals must care for anyone who comes to an emergency room, and the cost is passed on to taxpayers and private insurance companies. If we're already paying for them, why does it make any sense to continue to refuse them access to insurance and forcing them to abuse emergency rooms because they have no other choice? And even if this is all true, none of this guarantees an outbreak of law abuse.

[2DumbKidsVideo]

@schindelerium Yes, I know this because I purchase my own insurance (because I am self employed) and because I'm a homeowner, and therefore I see my property tax bill every year that has an itemized list for both the local ISD and the Hospital District.

[2DumbKidsVideo]

@2DumbKidsVideo Who do you think mandates that hospitals see all emergency room patients even for non-emergencies? These people already have access to health insurance (whether it be county insurance, medicare / medicaid, VA, or private), but they choose not to partake because they have no incentive to do so. The reason they have no incentive to do so is because the federal government mandates that hospitals see all emergency room patients no matter what.

[schindelerium]

And not only that, this isn't even universal health care ilike in Britain or Canada. This is government-provided insurance coupled with getting rid of companies denying patients on the grounds of pre-existing conditions. Sure, the "being required to have it or risk a fine" language isn't so cool, but I'd much rather have that than end up with cancer and have my only options be "live in poverty" or "die". You're required to have car insurance or risk a fine, why not health insurance?

[2DumbKidsVideo]

@schindelerium Ah to be young and naive... you remind me of... well... me.

First of all, car insurance is not a federal mandate, it's a state mandate. Second, you don't have to purchase car insurance from the cradle to the grave, or at all for that matter. You're free to ride a bike, take a taxi, ride the bus, take a train, or drive on non-public roads if you choose. You must only purchase car insurance if you wish to drive on state funded highways or federally funded interstate highways.

[2DumbKidsVideo]

@2DumbKidsVideo Second of all, you are only required to purchase "liability insurance". This is required so that you can prove responsibility to repay damages to other people's property or families if you kill someone due to your own negligence.

[2DumbKidsVideo]

@2DumbKidsVideo Additional insurance to cover your own property is purely optional, and you do not have to purchase car insurance at all if you can prove that you are financially responsible (varies from state to state, I believe that Texas requires you to set up a separate bank account with $250,000, but don't quote me on that exact amount as it may have changed since I got my license.)

[2DumbKidsVideo]

@2DumbKidsVideo Third of all, even if the federal government did require you to have car insurance, they would be overstepping their bounds as this is a State, not a Federal issue. You might want to study up on the 10th amendment.

[2DumbKidsVideo]

@2DumbKidsVideo I'm not saying that health care reform is not needed, but we have taken a step in the complete wrong direction. If you're goal was to create worse health care for more people at a higher price... then we have succeeded. I can ramble on about supply and demand & government price fixing for hours if you'd like.

[schindelerium]

You're right. I was wrong about this. I revoke my statement about car insurance.

This is incredibly refreshing, you know. Despite your condescending attitude, you're actually giving me a debate, which is much more than I can say about many other Tea Partiers. :)

[2DumbKidsVideo]

@schindelerium Well, it's difficult not to be condensending. I guess I just see something in you're arguments that I saw in myself during my younger "punk rock" days and that frustrates me.

But after getting married, buying a house, building 3 businesses from the ground up, and getting a degree in Economics (and continuing my education in Econ), I have changed my outlook on things. I hope that you will keep an open mind throughout your college education.

[2DumbKidsVideo]

@2DumbKidsVideo I'm sure we both want the same good outcome for humanity, we just differ on how to get there. I will add though, economic law is on my side of the debate. ;)

[2DumbKidsVideo]

@2DumbKidsVideo Enjoyed it. Come back anytime.

[schindelerium]

Oh, but it's true. Not only is it not just an incentive, but it's in effect right now. It was passed with the stimulus bill. If I could post the Politifacts link without the comment box screwing up, I would, but it's on there.

[2DumbKidsVideo]

@schindelerium Politifact?  Sigh.

[MsJayri]

@2DumbKidsVideo : O (YAWN) you dnt kno anythng about my education or grammer, i find u to be a sad person. and im sorry i shortened all my words (which i will continue to do) but i just thought that u cud comprehend them, im sorry ur stupid and have nothing better to do with ur life (hence the amount of time u spend on these comments) SOMEONES NOT GETTING ANY MUFF : (

[2DumbKidsVideo]

@MsJayri - ;)

[OBAMAISGREAT]

The legislation passed for health insurance reform. Your effort failed Tea Baggers!

[2DumbKidsVideo]

@OBAMAISGREAT We shall see come Nov.

[MsJayri]

@2DumbKidsVideo OBAMA 2012..... WE SHOOK A TEA PARTY RALLY UP WITH JUST 4 PPL IN ST.CHARLES MO!!!!!

[2DumbKidsVideo]

@MsJayri Not a chance in hell.

[F1REbomb]

LOL, Communism FAIL!

[blackacidlizzard]

Bread and circus.

[imbubba56]

God bless Texas!!! Thanks for posting. Just goes to show you that liberals are basically lazy. Odumbo shot his load in 2008. They won't be back.

[msstortuga]

This proves nothing. ive seen footage of your protests with just a couple people, and ive seen footage of moveon's people with thousands....

[2DumbKidsVideo]

This is true.

But given that I showed up expecting a mob of liberals (at their own protest) and found a couple of hundred conservatives (sponsored by no particular group) counter-protesting the 5 people who showed up on MoveOn's behalf, I felt amused enough to post it on YouTube.

I'm not looking to prove anything with this video, just showing what happened at this particular protest.

[2DumbKidsVideo]

PS: Just in case you can't tell, I'm not a big fan of MoveOn. :)