@NaniaCystine that's like saying 'That's not a car, it's a mercedes.' A main gauche IS a dagger, just a type used specifically for parrying. And there's no such thing as just a 'gauche' 'Main gauche' translates to 'left hand' from French. It's the term used for a parrying dagger, the 'main' part just means 'hand'. It doesn't refer to any sort of shield. A main gauche is simply a parrying dagger used in the left hand.
@neosonic66 First of all google it. I have a minor in medieval weapons. Second when you say rapier and dagger its like saying, in your terms, "BMW and a car". And its not a dagger. A dagger has a specialist look and feel to it. First of all a dagger's guard is smaller, it about 1.5-2 inches shorter than a gauche. In English you label melee weapons by their name not category. A Rapier is a Rapier a Gauche is a Gauche a Dagger is a Dagger. Continued.....
@neosonic66 A Gauche is more a kin to a shortsword. Classification, is accurate but most people don't know the difference so they call it whatever and has become a habit of people calling certain things they are not. It doesn't matter what it's called in french its what the English decided to call it that matters since we are speaking english not french. A Gauche is without a shield a Main gauche is with a shield, regardless of what it means in french. End of story.
@NaniaCystine well, we'll have to agree to disagree then unless you can point me to a source, in which case I would genuinely be interested in reading about it.
@NaniaCystine If english is the language that matters here then why bother using French? If a "gauche" is a "gauche" and a dagger is a dagger, then English is English, Francais est Francais, and in French "main gauche" means "left hand" and refers to a sharp pointy piece of metal with or without a knuckleguard that is used in the left hand in conjunction with a rapier, hence the name. Make up your own English names if you're going to be that picky about them.
@theULTIMATEanswer42 If you want to compete, study the modern sport of fencing at any of Boston's fine clubs (Boston Fencing Club is great). Foil, epee, and sabre are the modern fencing weapons. If you want to learn about a 300 year old obsolete martial art from someone pretending they understand it with a bunch of theater/SCA nerds, then "study" "rapier."
@tamerlanenj tho i appreciate you input i would like to inform you that foil, epee, and sabre are all very old weapons as well. i have fenced with all three and with rapier i happen to find rapier to be much more fun. and it is proven time and time again that "ancient" martial arts are still effective (i say "ancient" because they are still in use today) for example karate, kung-fu, jujutsu, ninjutsu (yes it is still studied), escrima, and capoeira just to name a few.
@tamerlanenj All martial arts stem from one of two things: 1) a previous martial art, or 2) one's own field experience. Therefore, no martial art is truly "obsolete." To say that is very similar to saying that the wheel is obsolete simply because we have created the car. Or the wagon, which we still use today just as often as the wheel (shopping carts). The modern sport is only slightly different than the old sport, and that's all fencing ever was, really. Fencing was for nobles exclusively.
@tamerlanenj if you don't appreciate the form, why are you watching the video? maybe instead of sitting behind your moniter you should get out and try some of these as you put it "obsolete" martial arts. I am sure there is a group or school in your area.
Try to contact forte swordplay, I think they mostly do longsword fencing and I'm not sure they train any rapier. If they don't, I think they may know where you should look. If you look at fortejeff's youtube accout, user/fortejeff then I think you will see that they at least don't pretend they understand everything.
@stickmymasta : I'm highly certain these people have no idea what you are talking about. As they'd much rather stab you in the throat than play on a computer.
@Istancow refined? LOL at this. War is war whatever country it take place. And in asia they use terms martial art, just not the english terms. Stop yellow fever please, thanks.
I love the hit on the top of the head near the end of the clip--although not all that signifigant in a real sword fight.....I imagine, in a real fight that nasty stabing, clubbing, and grappling would dictate the winner....(am I wrong?).....
@walatalalaw rapier, like all weapons evolved with time and technology and had several different stages, the basics of it is that with developnent of gunpowder and rifles, the heavy metal armors were no longer effective since they slowed you down it did not stop a bullet effectively - so the were discarded for the most part, and so lighter and faster versions of most blades became more effective against a lightley armored fast and agile foe
Depends where you go in the SCA... While its true, the SCA does allow pretty much anyone to pick up a sword and fight with no formal training, there are plenty of groups in the SCA on board with the WMA style training.
Great intent, and nice to see people practicing outside, too many people get used to perfect gymnasium floors, forgetting what it can be like on different terrains, good stuff.
Isn't rapier supposed to be a bit more trust oriented weapon ? I mean- here it's a bit more like a baroque sword then classic rapier in italian or spanish school. Most of attacks here seem to be cuts
I believe you mean rapier. There is only one "p." Side-swords preceded rapiers by quite a bit, though they were used rather commonly during the time period rapiers were use. I feel like its a bit of a misnomer to call them "cutting" or "sword" rapiers. It's kind of like referring to a pistol as a shooty-rapier.
if my memory serves me "rappier" was a germanic spelling used by joachim meyer's fechtbuch. possibly you've been reading his stuff and picked up that spelling as a result?
but i was wondering, isnt that sword being used with the buckler an arming sword? because it looks to be of a different style than the rapier, and is missing the distinctive hilt.
seems more like a real battle and i was curouis about it but then again in an battle in when they accutually used them wouldn't there be more fierce stabbing movents?
(but then again fighting for sport and fighting to kill are different)
@Procopius1980 Not really, I am an SCA rapier fighter and we take it pretty seriously as well. They are just using a more cut and thrust style and for some of thier passes actually seemed to be using more or a saber or slashing style than the point style traditional to rapeir. Had any of those blows landed it would have sucked yeah but since there was no push or pull behind them it would have resulted in a bruise or shallow gash versus an actual deep cut
This comment has received too many negative votesshow
you use it as a "what i like to call" quick substatute for a shield so you can use two swords, i like them, wont be much use in a katana fight, infact worthless
Yeah, especially because they can be used as weapon if necessary. I can imagine that 1 Kilo of iron on your fist hurts a lot when thrusted to the head.
I wouldn't go to say that two beats one. It really depends on the level of skill and tech. of the fencer.
Even in method one can still best two. In one you explore "poking" and traveling more than the power forwardness of duel handling.
Two may have the counter advantage but if you "out work" and tranverse often you will have the upper hand. Remember technique is the World of the Fencer and footwork is his gravity.
In what situation would a rapier/ buckler ever be used against a katana?
When using two swords, the fencer has to split his focus between both weapons, which to parry with, which to thrust with. With one, his focus is entirely on that weapon, and, in theory (so long as he knows what hes doing) should be able to out fence two more often than not.
Also, to be able to properly fence with two, one would have to be able to fence at least as good with ones left as ones right (or vice versa).
off hand tools, dagger, buckler, cloak-- are not necessarily intended for use in the same way as the primary hand weapon
a buckler is primarily defensive, as is a dagger-- but if the primary is used to tie up the opponent's weapon[s] then the dagger can deal the killing blow-- and a well driven buckler can break a bone.
obsession with asian arts ['katana'] to the exclusion of all else is narrow-minded- neither were euro bastard swords inherently superior to two blades.
Oh, I'm well aware of the usefulness of offhand weapons. But there is a difference between using a sword and a secondary offhand defensive weapon, and just using two swords as offensive weapons (i.e. equal focus between them, rather than one as an offhand defensive weapon and the other as a primarily offensive weapon.). I'm pretty sure the guy I was responding to was advocating the use of two swords as offensive weapons as the best defense against "lighter swords such as katana"
I study Doces Pares as well as fencing and boxing. The Filipino martial arts have ties to Western combat sword fighting -the Spanish ran the mercenary schools. Boxing, too, gives us a sense of dynamic sword training probably was before modern fencing.
the reason for the small shield is you hold it out in your opponents face so it cuts off lines of attack making it almost as affective as a larger shield plus you can punch him with it and you don't have to worry about injuring yourself with it
i have to say i am most impresed and more relieved by this vidoe. its the very first ive seen that desplay real and practical moves from european styles. though as a hawaiian i might get laughed at for suporting white man things, i have alweys edmired the REAL european styles and am happy to see a good video of them :)
why would you be laughed at? if something is well done, al that matters is that its well done, who cares by whom?^^
you might want to take a look at the presentation of thechniques by zornhau or gladiatores, look at TheRealGladiatores vids for those. they might not be freefights, but first comes technique, only then you can fight freely, right?^^
The ARMA only studies the martial aspect of the Middle Ages and Renaissance, no role-play or pageantry involved. If you're referring to just the fighting then yes the ARMA is much more focused on realistic historically accurate fighting techniques.
The rapier is actually a heavy weapon. In modern fencing, the epee is the closest to the rapier, as it is the longest and heaviest of the three weapons (and the bouts last the longest). Though it is quick anyway, it's about the mental speed and reaction time.
true, the epee is the heaviest weapon in modern fencing; its still no where as heavy as a historical rapier though. some rapiers were 1kg while the modern epee can be almost as light as a stick.
So nice to see our European traditions being kept alive. Pity the world at large is unaware of our own martial arts traditions, of which there are many. Cheers!
Unlike our Asian counterparts, we don't have a long tradition of strongly recorded martial arts. European warfare constantly evolved as the major powers vied for dominance and the old ways were quickly discarded in favour of the new. Oh yeah to those who think that martial arts don't exist in Europe where the hell do you think the term MARTIAL came from? Hint: Roman god of war.
@CrimsonCrux im not sure you are correct with your initial assumption(and i say assumption because it seem clear you have not put time into studying this topic)
With the rise and fall of nations and empires 'old ways' weren;t suddenly lost. Sword fighting everywhere has been a gradual evolution and as long as it is still in practice it will continue to evolve(though at this point into something less associated with military combat of course)
@CrimsonCrux i realise this post is 2years old but you DO realise that in asia they don't call it "martial arts", right? they never did. that's a western term so of course that's what it's called in the west. any kind of learned physical combat with techniques that can be perfected is a martial art. anyone who isn't stupid knows that. your comment comes off as educated but it seems that you plus at least 15 others are in fact, stupid. insulting i know, but i combat stupidity aggressively.
@seanschwei Not checked my account in ages. Stupid I may be in your eyes but I can at least grasp the basic concepts of grammar. Rule number one: Arguing over the net=Futile exercise.
@CrimsonCrux true, but it's something to do when insomnia keeps you up. what's rule number two? "attack your opponant's grammar if you have nothing else to stand on."?
The first unarmed combat officialy recorded was pankration... greek/roman technique.
This was firstly renowned as Martial Arts. When Alexander the Great had reached its empire to the far east "Martial Arts" was brought to the monks who eventually made their own from India to far east of China and so fort.
@japedol [Facepalm] I was referring to the origin of the term "Martial" not a generalisation that all combative arts in the world came from a Romano diety.
Martial arts exist in Western culture, but they should not be confused with BUDO (which has domicile and origin in Japan), for they are quite different things. Budo's solely objective is to improve as a human being and use of any kind of fighting is just a tool...
@CrimsonCrux Nevertheless, I'd feel far more comfortable with a Jian in my hand, and techniques specializing in warfare and group combat, than with the rapier and sabre used in European Fencing, which focuses on single combat.
European combat is highly refined, and has become more of a sport than Indian/Indonesian/Chinese-based combat. As for Japanese combat styles, those have developed into a traditionalist art, a product of Japan's isolation.
Well it depends on the sword you're using it with. If you're using a cut and thrust sword like in this video I would suggest George Silver, if you're using rapier then Ridolfo Capo Ferro's "Gran Simulacro" is a good choice.
I think using a main gauche(or dagger) is more useful then the buckler, because it provides more leverage and it is easier to direct your opponent's sword.
Ohh! Very technical for sparring! I was looking for a weapon based art, but even the supposed realistic filipino systems had a lot of fancy moves that their practitioners did not used in sparring. But i see that these guys here use what they teach....is their knife/dagger method as good as their rapier fencing? Does ARMA use sticks? Nice video again!
Now here are two people that truly know what they're doing. Quite graceful, just to cantradict the man claiming that Rapierists simply "Bash away at each other"
I also dislike it when people take themselves too seriously when it comes to historical combat, "I've read a few treaties on R&D so I must be an expert". At least stage combat is just that, rather than bashing away at each other.
I haven't seen anyone who claims to be an expert after reading a few rapier treatises. However, like any other martial art, Historical Fencing has to be taken seriously by those practicioners who wish to excel at it. I certainly don't "bash away" at my training partners. :)
Do you have rubber blunts on the end of your swords? And you all really should use more safety equipment than just masks and gloves. Do you wear a gorget at least?
I love that last hit. It made me smile. Just makes one aware of how fast John is. Regardless of what you think of him (I don't know him, and thus have no opinion on that), he's one heck of a fighter. :)
Lol. I can't help but watch the amature in the background bending his head towards his opponent. This looks like what we did in my Schola St. George class on Fiore.
I've tried the backsword/buckler combo and to be honest it would be more suited to the battlefield than a dual with quicker blades unless the buckler was used as the versatile punch/parry tool it was supposed to be. I'm sure the dualist on the left would think twice if he got a steel boss to the jaw.
I know it's only sparring but people mistake this sort of stuff as true fighting and not a review on technique.
Yeah, no offence Kiema43 but I think you labled this wrong. Those are definitely cut-and-thrust swords not the later rapier. Still awesome, John Clements rules. :-)
They are good not bad form but they have room for improvement i no im a 5 year skiled swordsmen skiled in fencing long swords brodswords and daggers. Still not to bad.And i no that there not fighting with moder forms or rapiers.
Just out of interest kpak44wh, where and with whom have you trained? Not that I will assume you fight bad just because your keyboard is messed up, but to discard a recognized WMArtist like John Clements like that sure needs some more info to back up besides claiming to be superior. cheers.
Also, the people in the video aren't training for a "modern" marathon or modern sport fencing, they are practicing their interpretation of hundreds of years old books to practice an attempted restoration of fighting arts that are, how odd, also hundreds of years old. think 1550-1600 or so. Still, nothing is perfect, and we will never know Exactly how the old masters of defense fought.
Baron, again, these blunts represent swords that can also cut, and therefore the dynamics would be different from that used by your Almighty "real" (whatever that means) epee fencer, who uses an overly light and flexible metal rod in their duelling game, which while fun, fast, and athletic, is merely to tag someone else and get their point, not to theoretically kill another person with a sword.
Eppe simply meant to tag? Next time you see a conquistador tell him that, would ya? lol. Eppe's were very good at killing because of the swift, cutting, thrusting action.
Well, you're better looking than the SCA people, but a real epee fencer would eat you for lunch. Big, ugly clunky actions, actually parrying from the shoulder, not the hand, stances too wide, idiotic reverse guards, sheesh. People have learned something in the last few hundred years, you know. You wouldn't use a hundred year old book on running to train for a modern marathon, would you? Jeez
Epee fencing is done with a light, flexible antenna-like blade. It's an advanced game of tag, not real swordfighting. If people had used sword & buckler in the last 100 years, you may have a point, but Olympic fencing gave up it's fighting heritage for sport. There are some things to learn from epee, but it's more about what they still remember. They've lost most of it.
To BaronRidiculous: Yes, modern sport fencing is so obviously superior to the styles employed back when people were actually using swords TO KILL EACHOTHER rather then just tagging. Absolutely. Yep. Totally. Those modern sport fencers are so much more lethal then fighters who fought IN COMBAT WITHOUT RULES.
Looks like I'm not the only one pissed off with idiots who believe their own hype and not actually read up on history and the application of violence in every day life. A proffessional swordsman would have honed his skill pretty much everyday for years since childhood. A sport fencer or hobbyist 400 odd years later finishes work and prances about on a leisure centre court for an hour or so. It annoys me when people regard historical swordsmanship with a modern fencers set of rules and critique.
Can't agree with you enough about sport fencing, Kiema. Haven't found much in the way of good fencing in video clips on the web, but if I find any I'll let you know. my maestro is kinda skittish about us filming in the salle. I can understand... god knows that a good amount of my bouts can get a little ugly from a form standpoint. If you
are interested in current top notch maestri schooled from a living tradition check this site:
I'd love to give you a link Kiema, but i think a good portion of my frustration with these videos, is that I can't seem to find any good video on the web. If you are interested in DVD Rapier instruction, I'd recommend this link:
sorry dood, dont speak any of those languages. But i didnt think there were actually maestri still around. Everyones into sport fencing now.. it so unrealistic... But since u cant find a good rapier vid online upload one for all of us to see?
Yarbols - Several years ago John Clements sparred a senior student of one of the IMAF mastros. The student had a epee and Clements was unarmed. Before you trash Clements you should find out the results of this match up.
i'm at least 2 years trained at a IMAF instructed school, and while I may be a beginner, it would seem that I have enough experience with advanced rapierists to be able to recognize a rapier being used outside of the direction of form defining instructions of Capo Ferro, Alfieri, Fabris, Marozzo and about a dozen other masters. You don't know me Megadeath, so you shouldn't make assumptions.
Oookay, lets review---you say you are a BEGINNER, and here you are judging the skill of MAESTROS. That makes a WHOLE lot of sense. Next time, remember your place.
well I try not to overstep my bounds, know my limitations, and not to talk about what I don't know, but then I do have almost three years experience training with world recognized meastri, so just because I myself are not skilled as they, I can recognize bad form. I'll say this: these clips are bad form from what I have been learning from the meastri I have studied under. I do not, however, presume to speak for anyone other than my humble self.
- bad footwork ...there is a preponderance of weight being kept on both fencer's forward legs. If you don't understand why this is bad form just look at the attack the left fencer (after the right fencer gives a weak attack, out of time with no apparent second intention) when he has a perfect opportunity to attack but cannot because all his weight is forward so when he tries to lunge his rear foot slips because it was not planted.
THIS kind of sparring should be an Olympic sport instead of the tame saber fencing we see......
Darthbelal 5 days ago
Do you seek the Riddle of Steel?
Kahouneko 4 weeks ago
thats also not a dagger thats a gauche, not a main gauche since it has no shield.
NaniaCystine 6 months ago
@NaniaCystine that's like saying 'That's not a car, it's a mercedes.' A main gauche IS a dagger, just a type used specifically for parrying. And there's no such thing as just a 'gauche' 'Main gauche' translates to 'left hand' from French. It's the term used for a parrying dagger, the 'main' part just means 'hand'. It doesn't refer to any sort of shield. A main gauche is simply a parrying dagger used in the left hand.
neosonic66 5 months ago 2
@neosonic66 First of all google it. I have a minor in medieval weapons. Second when you say rapier and dagger its like saying, in your terms, "BMW and a car". And its not a dagger. A dagger has a specialist look and feel to it. First of all a dagger's guard is smaller, it about 1.5-2 inches shorter than a gauche. In English you label melee weapons by their name not category. A Rapier is a Rapier a Gauche is a Gauche a Dagger is a Dagger. Continued.....
NaniaCystine 5 months ago
@neosonic66 A Gauche is more a kin to a shortsword. Classification, is accurate but most people don't know the difference so they call it whatever and has become a habit of people calling certain things they are not. It doesn't matter what it's called in french its what the English decided to call it that matters since we are speaking english not french. A Gauche is without a shield a Main gauche is with a shield, regardless of what it means in french. End of story.
NaniaCystine 5 months ago
@NaniaCystine well, we'll have to agree to disagree then unless you can point me to a source, in which case I would genuinely be interested in reading about it.
neosonic66 5 months ago
@NaniaCystine If english is the language that matters here then why bother using French? If a "gauche" is a "gauche" and a dagger is a dagger, then English is English, Francais est Francais, and in French "main gauche" means "left hand" and refers to a sharp pointy piece of metal with or without a knuckleguard that is used in the left hand in conjunction with a rapier, hence the name. Make up your own English names if you're going to be that picky about them.
UJS8X 4 months ago
anyone know what make and models are being used?
jagerma5ter 6 months ago
these dudes are good, but why is the tip of there sword not blunted
stitches611 6 months ago
i loooooove the clanky sound x3
EpicEffinTom 7 months ago
0:12-0:21 Awesome
gre8 8 months ago
does anyone know of fencing schools in the Boston area that have rapier?
theULTIMATEanswer42 10 months ago
@theULTIMATEanswer42 If you want to compete, study the modern sport of fencing at any of Boston's fine clubs (Boston Fencing Club is great). Foil, epee, and sabre are the modern fencing weapons. If you want to learn about a 300 year old obsolete martial art from someone pretending they understand it with a bunch of theater/SCA nerds, then "study" "rapier."
tamerlanenj 10 months ago
@tamerlanenj tho i appreciate you input i would like to inform you that foil, epee, and sabre are all very old weapons as well. i have fenced with all three and with rapier i happen to find rapier to be much more fun. and it is proven time and time again that "ancient" martial arts are still effective (i say "ancient" because they are still in use today) for example karate, kung-fu, jujutsu, ninjutsu (yes it is still studied), escrima, and capoeira just to name a few.
theULTIMATEanswer42 10 months ago
@tamerlanenj All martial arts stem from one of two things: 1) a previous martial art, or 2) one's own field experience. Therefore, no martial art is truly "obsolete." To say that is very similar to saying that the wheel is obsolete simply because we have created the car. Or the wagon, which we still use today just as often as the wheel (shopping carts). The modern sport is only slightly different than the old sport, and that's all fencing ever was, really. Fencing was for nobles exclusively.
kenkanif729 9 months ago
@kenkanif729
The fencing was for people who had money and time to practice. Bring a sword without to know how to use it was only a way to die soon.
Miauriceful 4 months ago
@tamerlanenj if you don't appreciate the form, why are you watching the video? maybe instead of sitting behind your moniter you should get out and try some of these as you put it "obsolete" martial arts. I am sure there is a group or school in your area.
dietrichvonw 6 months ago
@theULTIMATEanswer42
Try to contact forte swordplay, I think they mostly do longsword fencing and I'm not sure they train any rapier. If they don't, I think they may know where you should look. If you look at fortejeff's youtube accout, user/fortejeff then I think you will see that they at least don't pretend they understand everything.
gurkfisk89 10 months ago
@gurkfisk89 thank you i will try to contact them. unlike most youtubers you are quite helpful :)
theULTIMATEanswer42 10 months ago
@gurkfisk89 crap, :'( sorry i voted you down it wasn't intentional and it won't let me fix it
theULTIMATEanswer42 10 months ago
@theULTIMATEanswer42
Thanks for the kind words, and don't worry about the down wote. I have done that a loot of times =)
gurkfisk89 10 months ago
how long did it take you for 80 dungeoneering?
stickmymasta 10 months ago
@stickmymasta bahahaha
rsboy5 10 months ago
@stickmymasta : I'm highly certain these people have no idea what you are talking about. As they'd much rather stab you in the throat than play on a computer.
Halofreakanoid 10 months ago
there is 3 terms that we must know; martial arts, Self defence, and Fighting sport<<this 3 things are different.
MrSolitude14 11 months ago
@Istancow refined? LOL at this. War is war whatever country it take place. And in asia they use terms martial art, just not the english terms. Stop yellow fever please, thanks.
Saso1983 11 months ago
I love the hit on the top of the head near the end of the clip--although not all that signifigant in a real sword fight.....I imagine, in a real fight that nasty stabing, clubbing, and grappling would dictate the winner....(am I wrong?).....
bourquechris 1 year ago
Fighter on L with main gauche seems very gifted. Natural. Once can also see why the double blade style won out over the sword and buckler.
lebarosky 1 year ago
Martial arts = art of Mars or Arts of fighting in war.
Yes, the western warriors have "martial arts". They even got a name for it.
Today "martial arts" are not "martial arts". They are more like "combat sports" between gentlemen. Not the vicious fighting of life and death.
Deadman1709 1 year ago
@Deadman1709 more accurately, martial arts are what we have now, where martial sciences were what was practiced in the past.
kenmccarty 1 year ago
The guy on the left fights allot like I do...quick stabs to the forehead.
qyark 1 year ago
Look more like side-swords than actual rapiers, which is okay because a rapier is a perfumed ponce's weapon anyhow. :X :P lol
JohnnyWishbone85 1 year ago
the guy with the dagger leans way too much and he goes off balance
0xXNirvanaXx0 1 year ago
aren't those pretty thick for rapiers? I don't know much about this but aren't rapiers thiner than that?
walatalalaw 1 year ago
@walatalalaw rapier, like all weapons evolved with time and technology and had several different stages, the basics of it is that with developnent of gunpowder and rifles, the heavy metal armors were no longer effective since they slowed you down it did not stop a bullet effectively - so the were discarded for the most part, and so lighter and faster versions of most blades became more effective against a lightley armored fast and agile foe
eran5005 1 year ago
btw Pankration was the reason why MMA/UFC exists today.
Pankration was a mix of boxing/kicking with wrestling.
renowned as the most dangerous fighting technique in Olympia since it almost had no rules.
Bataaf1488 1 year ago
are you fighting with real metal swords? i don't see any protection on your body, explain me please. I would love to practice this also.
ninjalowang 1 year ago
late reaction head block...
WhatJustHappendd 1 year ago
Depends where you go in the SCA... While its true, the SCA does allow pretty much anyone to pick up a sword and fight with no formal training, there are plenty of groups in the SCA on board with the WMA style training.
Desco9111 1 year ago
too bad this video is only 35 seconds long, I could watch stuff like this for hours....
Darthbelal 1 year ago
guy needs a bigger shield ^^` i feel bad for him already
waterswind 2 years ago
It's a buckler~
Telltolin 1 year ago
It's small for a reason. Better movement.
onimotoko 1 year ago
@waterswind Buckler is more portable. Easier to carry it around.
aptshr 1 year ago
@waterswind its a buckler and hes not being aggressive other wise the guy would be overpowered with out the sheild
allof8death 1 year ago
Pretty cool! Another awesome group that's a little more intense is called the Loyal Order of the Sword. You Tube them...it's worth it!!
sgf357 2 years ago
This has been flagged as spam show
gay
xXcookersXx 2 years ago
somebody's gonna put their eye out
FlipFlibbo 2 years ago
Hence the masks.
clownrus 2 years ago
wow
mastercrowly 2 years ago
Great intent, and nice to see people practicing outside, too many people get used to perfect gymnasium floors, forgetting what it can be like on different terrains, good stuff.
Nikos3000 2 years ago
That looks like a lot of fun. Is that just a dagger or a Main Gauche?
sharpie443 3 years ago
gauche
mylilgymsock1 2 years ago
Aren't those sabres?
RsGhost1 3 years ago
That's not "rapier-styled" enough, but I guess it would be very dangerous to do thrusts with that. It can penetrate the body.
leojleoj 3 years ago
i think ill just stick with foil lol that looks like it hurts. AWE they get to fight outside? no fair!
00CheshireCat00 3 years ago
foil is more realistic for practicing, swinging a sword is not proper fencing as you can tell by most professional fencers
heretowatchnot 3 years ago
@heretowatchnot Are you confusing this with Olympic sport fencing?
aptshr 1 year ago
Isn't rapier supposed to be a bit more trust oriented weapon ? I mean- here it's a bit more like a baroque sword then classic rapier in italian or spanish school. Most of attacks here seem to be cuts
RKGalery 3 years ago
foil uses the rapier however they use attacks that thrust and slash that is identically to the style they use
Drokua89 3 years ago
Hands do look a bit like Marozzo (so definitely cut and trust sideswords), same goes for guards, relatively high position etc. As said earlier...
RKGalery 3 years ago
To me it seems they are using cut&thrust side swords, which is something in between rapier and arming sword. So the style seems right in place to me.
Konane12 3 years ago
I'm agree with you. The sword is not a rapier, a rapier must to protect the hand.
duchmanta 3 years ago
Actually I've been referring to way in which it is used rather then shape of the blade or handle.
RKGalery 3 years ago
its can cut and thrust but which is easyer... thrusting because its at a range
bioniclekiller999 3 years ago
There are many types of rappier. Sideswords are sometimes refered to as cutting rappiers or sword rappiers.
There are also different rappier styles, just like there some tennis players that use top spin, and some that don't.
BrokenCompass2 2 years ago
I believe you mean rapier. There is only one "p." Side-swords preceded rapiers by quite a bit, though they were used rather commonly during the time period rapiers were use. I feel like its a bit of a misnomer to call them "cutting" or "sword" rapiers. It's kind of like referring to a pistol as a shooty-rapier.
ajsmcs 2 years ago
haha not sure what was wrong with me when I wrote that. Off spelling day :P
I prefer to call a sidesword a sidesword, but some collectors call them ***-rapier. Was merely justifying the title.
BrokenCompass2 2 years ago
if my memory serves me "rappier" was a germanic spelling used by joachim meyer's fechtbuch. possibly you've been reading his stuff and picked up that spelling as a result?
suzerain01 2 years ago
I will now call every gun in the world a "shooty-rapier," thanks to you.
CaptainCarrion 2 years ago
awesome fight
love watching ARMA videos.
but i was wondering, isnt that sword being used with the buckler an arming sword? because it looks to be of a different style than the rapier, and is missing the distinctive hilt.
correct me if im wrong.
poopwadmcgee 3 years ago
Both swords look like side swords to me. That is something in beetween a rapier and arming sword.
Konane12 3 years ago
like it^^
seems more like a real battle and i was curouis about it but then again in an battle in when they accutually used them wouldn't there be more fierce stabbing movents?
(but then again fighting for sport and fighting to kill are different)
hush9 3 years ago
hahaha u guys r gonna kill each other!
bytetopia 3 years ago
I can tell these guys take the sword fighting more serious than SCA.
Procopius1980 3 years ago 24
@Procopius1980 Can you tell whether these guys are also in the SCA?
aptshr 1 year ago
@Procopius1980 Not really, I am an SCA rapier fighter and we take it pretty seriously as well. They are just using a more cut and thrust style and for some of thier passes actually seemed to be using more or a saber or slashing style than the point style traditional to rapeir. Had any of those blows landed it would have sucked yeah but since there was no push or pull behind them it would have resulted in a bruise or shallow gash versus an actual deep cut
EatSleepBreathMovies 1 year ago
It is a Buckler. That is why it is small, do you know what a Buckler is?
Zwerchhau 3 years ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
you use it as a "what i like to call" quick substatute for a shield so you can use two swords, i like them, wont be much use in a katana fight, infact worthless
enciclodapedia 3 years ago
no use in a katana fight? i doubt it.
bucklers are shields, so yeah, you gotta get your facts straight enciclodapedia.
bucklers are better than you may think.
poopwadmcgee 3 years ago
Yeah, especially because they can be used as weapon if necessary. I can imagine that 1 Kilo of iron on your fist hurts a lot when thrusted to the head.
Malachayas 3 years ago
exactamundo.
and they arent half bad at blocking either
(believe it or not??!!)
poopwadmcgee 3 years ago
Already fought with them and belive you. In fact, I can work better with them than with a heavier shield which is tied to the arm.
Malachayas 3 years ago
yeah i was joking around.
yeah i prefer them over large shields for the most part.
poopwadmcgee 3 years ago
two swords is better then one. but buckler is better, and a buckler would be extremely useful against any lighter swords such as katanas.
roytboga 3 years ago
I wouldn't go to say that two beats one. It really depends on the level of skill and tech. of the fencer.
Even in method one can still best two. In one you explore "poking" and traveling more than the power forwardness of duel handling.
Two may have the counter advantage but if you "out work" and tranverse often you will have the upper hand. Remember technique is the World of the Fencer and footwork is his gravity.
BlueMageWithSoulEdge 3 years ago
In what situation would a rapier/ buckler ever be used against a katana?
When using two swords, the fencer has to split his focus between both weapons, which to parry with, which to thrust with. With one, his focus is entirely on that weapon, and, in theory (so long as he knows what hes doing) should be able to out fence two more often than not.
Also, to be able to properly fence with two, one would have to be able to fence at least as good with ones left as ones right (or vice versa).
ajsmcs 2 years ago
off hand tools, dagger, buckler, cloak-- are not necessarily intended for use in the same way as the primary hand weapon
a buckler is primarily defensive, as is a dagger-- but if the primary is used to tie up the opponent's weapon[s] then the dagger can deal the killing blow-- and a well driven buckler can break a bone.
obsession with asian arts ['katana'] to the exclusion of all else is narrow-minded- neither were euro bastard swords inherently superior to two blades.
different disciplines
pax
androydnyc 2 years ago 9
Oh, I'm well aware of the usefulness of offhand weapons. But there is a difference between using a sword and a secondary offhand defensive weapon, and just using two swords as offensive weapons (i.e. equal focus between them, rather than one as an offhand defensive weapon and the other as a primarily offensive weapon.). I'm pretty sure the guy I was responding to was advocating the use of two swords as offensive weapons as the best defense against "lighter swords such as katana"
ajsmcs 2 years ago
I study Doces Pares as well as fencing and boxing. The Filipino martial arts have ties to Western combat sword fighting -the Spanish ran the mercenary schools. Boxing, too, gives us a sense of dynamic sword training probably was before modern fencing.
derfilmmacher 2 years ago
the reason for the small shield is you hold it out in your opponents face so it cuts off lines of attack making it almost as affective as a larger shield plus you can punch him with it and you don't have to worry about injuring yourself with it
dealer321 4 years ago
she guys sheld is so small as to be useless. just use a dagger and you are more versatile
fispok 4 years ago
i have to say i am most impresed and more relieved by this vidoe. its the very first ive seen that desplay real and practical moves from european styles. though as a hawaiian i might get laughed at for suporting white man things, i have alweys edmired the REAL european styles and am happy to see a good video of them :)
Hawaiianstile 4 years ago
why would you be laughed at? if something is well done, al that matters is that its well done, who cares by whom?^^
you might want to take a look at the presentation of thechniques by zornhau or gladiatores, look at TheRealGladiatores vids for those. they might not be freefights, but first comes technique, only then you can fight freely, right?^^
JamJackJillian 4 years ago
Is this ARMA supposed to be more realistic than SCA?
Makron5 4 years ago
The ARMA only studies the martial aspect of the Middle Ages and Renaissance, no role-play or pageantry involved. If you're referring to just the fighting then yes the ARMA is much more focused on realistic historically accurate fighting techniques.
SwordAndBuckler 4 years ago
Long live European Martial Arts!!
lordbone 4 years ago
rapier is supposed to be fast u know.
GUnit20002006 4 years ago
This is Historical fencing..
lordbone 4 years ago
The rapier is actually a heavy weapon. In modern fencing, the epee is the closest to the rapier, as it is the longest and heaviest of the three weapons (and the bouts last the longest). Though it is quick anyway, it's about the mental speed and reaction time.
VirulentShadow 4 years ago
true, the epee is the heaviest weapon in modern fencing; its still no where as heavy as a historical rapier though. some rapiers were 1kg while the modern epee can be almost as light as a stick.
Solombas 3 years ago
@GUnit20002006 Not so much. :-) Smallsword is fast.
aptshr 1 year ago
So nice to see our European traditions being kept alive. Pity the world at large is unaware of our own martial arts traditions, of which there are many. Cheers!
UFMD1 4 years ago 2
Unlike our Asian counterparts, we don't have a long tradition of strongly recorded martial arts. European warfare constantly evolved as the major powers vied for dominance and the old ways were quickly discarded in favour of the new. Oh yeah to those who think that martial arts don't exist in Europe where the hell do you think the term MARTIAL came from? Hint: Roman god of war.
CrimsonCrux 3 years ago 44
Never knew that, thanks for my fact of the day :-)
BrokenCompass2 2 years ago
@CrimsonCrux im not sure you are correct with your initial assumption(and i say assumption because it seem clear you have not put time into studying this topic)
With the rise and fall of nations and empires 'old ways' weren;t suddenly lost. Sword fighting everywhere has been a gradual evolution and as long as it is still in practice it will continue to evolve(though at this point into something less associated with military combat of course)
I think 5000+ years is a fairly long tradition
Emanusmell 1 year ago
@CrimsonCrux i realise this post is 2years old but you DO realise that in asia they don't call it "martial arts", right? they never did. that's a western term so of course that's what it's called in the west. any kind of learned physical combat with techniques that can be perfected is a martial art. anyone who isn't stupid knows that. your comment comes off as educated but it seems that you plus at least 15 others are in fact, stupid. insulting i know, but i combat stupidity aggressively.
seanschwei 1 year ago
@seanschwei Not checked my account in ages. Stupid I may be in your eyes but I can at least grasp the basic concepts of grammar. Rule number one: Arguing over the net=Futile exercise.
CrimsonCrux 1 year ago
@CrimsonCrux true, but it's something to do when insomnia keeps you up. what's rule number two? "attack your opponant's grammar if you have nothing else to stand on."?
seanschwei 1 year ago
@seanschwei I've a serviceable pair of legs so that's not likely to happen.
CrimsonCrux 1 year ago
@CrimsonCrux
Indeed
The first unarmed combat officialy recorded was pankration... greek/roman technique.
This was firstly renowned as Martial Arts. When Alexander the Great had reached its empire to the far east "Martial Arts" was brought to the monks who eventually made their own from India to far east of China and so fort.
Europeans were the first true martial artists.
Bataaf1488 1 year ago
@CrimsonCrux I was gonna say, modern forms of warfare are martial, so sniping is a martial art of a sort yes?
effigytormented 1 year ago
@effigytormented Well it has a long history and a culture and ethos taught to its adherents so I guess it can be called a martial art, yeah.
CrimsonCrux 1 year ago
@CrimsonCrux you have no idea what your talking about do you :p...martial art didnt come from the roman god of war...:p
japedol 1 year ago
@japedol Yes it did. Where do you think the word came from? Asia?
Ranziel1 1 year ago
@japedol [Facepalm] I was referring to the origin of the term "Martial" not a generalisation that all combative arts in the world came from a Romano diety.
CrimsonCrux 1 year ago
@CrimsonCrux
Martial arts exist in Western culture, but they should not be confused with BUDO (which has domicile and origin in Japan), for they are quite different things. Budo's solely objective is to improve as a human being and use of any kind of fighting is just a tool...
maregordon 1 year ago
@CrimsonCrux Nevertheless, I'd feel far more comfortable with a Jian in my hand, and techniques specializing in warfare and group combat, than with the rapier and sabre used in European Fencing, which focuses on single combat.
European combat is highly refined, and has become more of a sport than Indian/Indonesian/Chinese-based combat. As for Japanese combat styles, those have developed into a traditionalist art, a product of Japan's isolation.
In Asia, the term "martial arts" isn't even used.
Istancow 1 year ago
@CrimsonCrux Well, FYI, in Asian languages, we don't call it "martial arts".
BaoNgocGiaNguyen 6 months ago
@CrimsonCrux The most deadliest forms of martial arts are from europe. I forgot the name of the most famous one its from france though.
NaniaCystine 6 months ago
@NaniaCystine Is it Savate?
Ryo19zintkd 5 months ago
@Ryo19zintkd savate is french kickboxing
l3054 3 months ago
very good, well done.
Mikesmoreno 4 years ago
im trying to find a decent later rennaisance sword manual on how to use my recently acquired buckler properly.... any suggestions?
whitty1815 4 years ago
Well it depends on the sword you're using it with. If you're using a cut and thrust sword like in this video I would suggest George Silver, if you're using rapier then Ridolfo Capo Ferro's "Gran Simulacro" is a good choice.
SwordAndBuckler 4 years ago
I think using a main gauche(or dagger) is more useful then the buckler, because it provides more leverage and it is easier to direct your opponent's sword.
Aeberon 4 years ago
Ohh! Very technical for sparring! I was looking for a weapon based art, but even the supposed realistic filipino systems had a lot of fancy moves that their practitioners did not used in sparring. But i see that these guys here use what they teach....is their knife/dagger method as good as their rapier fencing? Does ARMA use sticks? Nice video again!
lion8dragon 4 years ago
Wow. I've only attended two ARMA practices so far, and it ain't easy stuff :)
(And it's painful when your partner pommels you in the side of the head... during pratice) but no pain, no gain.
CKtheFat 4 years ago
Now here are two people that truly know what they're doing. Quite graceful, just to cantradict the man claiming that Rapierists simply "Bash away at each other"
Shadoweangel 4 years ago
I really Like that video. Thats good fighting.
KeaStudios 4 years ago
I also dislike it when people take themselves too seriously when it comes to historical combat, "I've read a few treaties on R&D so I must be an expert". At least stage combat is just that, rather than bashing away at each other.
jgolby 4 years ago
I haven't seen anyone who claims to be an expert after reading a few rapier treatises. However, like any other martial art, Historical Fencing has to be taken seriously by those practicioners who wish to excel at it. I certainly don't "bash away" at my training partners. :)
Kunstdesfechtens 4 years ago
lmao i like the tiny quick tap at the end
thaartofdez 4 years ago
whats with the incredibly tiny buckler?
leogan 4 years ago
That's a pretty average size for a buckler, actually.
Kunstdesfechtens 4 years ago
I take it bucklers are meant to be more flexible than a full shield and thus much smaller, is that true?
CKtheFat 4 years ago
Do you have rubber blunts on the end of your swords? And you all really should use more safety equipment than just masks and gloves. Do you wear a gorget at least?
MisterBazooka 4 years ago
I love that last hit. It made me smile. Just makes one aware of how fast John is. Regardless of what you think of him (I don't know him, and thus have no opinion on that), he's one heck of a fighter. :)
Kunstdesfechtens 4 years ago
This is actually quite good form
BigDummy23 4 years ago
Lol. I can't help but watch the amature in the background bending his head towards his opponent. This looks like what we did in my Schola St. George class on Fiore.
ColonelMarksman 4 years ago
I dagger fight with duobles just wondering how good is your defence once i get through i win =)
telepathichobo 4 years ago
good technique fight,im impressed
Swistak7 4 years ago
I've tried the backsword/buckler combo and to be honest it would be more suited to the battlefield than a dual with quicker blades unless the buckler was used as the versatile punch/parry tool it was supposed to be. I'm sure the dualist on the left would think twice if he got a steel boss to the jaw.
I know it's only sparring but people mistake this sort of stuff as true fighting and not a review on technique.
SettingSunRisingMoon 4 years ago
Yeah, no offence Kiema43 but I think you labled this wrong. Those are definitely cut-and-thrust swords not the later rapier. Still awesome, John Clements rules. :-)
SwordAndBuckler 4 years ago
lol, we don't see how good a fighter he is from how he was trained or for how long he have been trained... Its all about attitude :P
Anyways, this is a good video, it has shown precision over caution...
Thx for the Vid, Kiema :D
StRapier 5 years ago
You two burn in hell. Leave that guy alone.
Caw14 5 years ago
He must be a great fighter then hehe since he spent all the time trainig then learning to spell:P
psykchosonik 5 years ago
kpak44wh you should have used those years to learn how to spell properly...
losNinja 5 years ago
I know i know But my computer is messing up and is very slow.
kpak44wh 5 years ago
They are good not bad form but they have room for improvement i no im a 5 year skiled swordsmen skiled in fencing long swords brodswords and daggers. Still not to bad.And i no that there not fighting with moder forms or rapiers.
kpak44wh 5 years ago
Just out of interest kpak44wh, where and with whom have you trained? Not that I will assume you fight bad just because your keyboard is messed up, but to discard a recognized WMArtist like John Clements like that sure needs some more info to back up besides claiming to be superior. cheers.
marozzo 5 years ago
Well said Ringeck
Rynwald 5 years ago
Also, the people in the video aren't training for a "modern" marathon or modern sport fencing, they are practicing their interpretation of hundreds of years old books to practice an attempted restoration of fighting arts that are, how odd, also hundreds of years old. think 1550-1600 or so. Still, nothing is perfect, and we will never know Exactly how the old masters of defense fought.
Ringeck85 5 years ago
Baron, again, these blunts represent swords that can also cut, and therefore the dynamics would be different from that used by your Almighty "real" (whatever that means) epee fencer, who uses an overly light and flexible metal rod in their duelling game, which while fun, fast, and athletic, is merely to tag someone else and get their point, not to theoretically kill another person with a sword.
Ringeck85 5 years ago
Eppe simply meant to tag? Next time you see a conquistador tell him that, would ya? lol. Eppe's were very good at killing because of the swift, cutting, thrusting action.
motomonstrosity 5 years ago
I believe he is refering to the Sport Fencing epee not the actual sword.
SwordAndBuckler 5 years ago
Next YOU see a conquistador, check your calendar.
ikumdo 5 years ago
Well, you're better looking than the SCA people, but a real epee fencer would eat you for lunch. Big, ugly clunky actions, actually parrying from the shoulder, not the hand, stances too wide, idiotic reverse guards, sheesh. People have learned something in the last few hundred years, you know. You wouldn't use a hundred year old book on running to train for a modern marathon, would you? Jeez
BaronRidiculous 5 years ago
Epee fencing is done with a light, flexible antenna-like blade. It's an advanced game of tag, not real swordfighting. If people had used sword & buckler in the last 100 years, you may have a point, but Olympic fencing gave up it's fighting heritage for sport. There are some things to learn from epee, but it's more about what they still remember. They've lost most of it.
Zrazys 4 years ago
To BaronRidiculous: Yes, modern sport fencing is so obviously superior to the styles employed back when people were actually using swords TO KILL EACHOTHER rather then just tagging. Absolutely. Yep. Totally. Those modern sport fencers are so much more lethal then fighters who fought IN COMBAT WITHOUT RULES.
:sigh:
Asaelion 4 years ago
Looks like I'm not the only one pissed off with idiots who believe their own hype and not actually read up on history and the application of violence in every day life. A proffessional swordsman would have honed his skill pretty much everyday for years since childhood. A sport fencer or hobbyist 400 odd years later finishes work and prances about on a leisure centre court for an hour or so. It annoys me when people regard historical swordsmanship with a modern fencers set of rules and critique.
TheCinderblockKid 4 years ago
Finally, someone with real perspective.
cainenovak 3 years ago 2
Yarbols, these are blunts representing side swords, or "cut-and-thrust" swords, and not the later, thinner, longer rapiers.
Ringeck85 5 years ago
Can't agree with you enough about sport fencing, Kiema. Haven't found much in the way of good fencing in video clips on the web, but if I find any I'll let you know. my maestro is kinda skittish about us filming in the salle. I can understand... god knows that a good amount of my bouts can get a little ugly from a form standpoint. If you
are interested in current top notch maestri schooled from a living tradition check this site:
http://www.scherma-tradizionale.org/
Yarbols 5 years ago
I'd love to give you a link Kiema, but i think a good portion of my frustration with these videos, is that I can't seem to find any good video on the web. If you are interested in DVD Rapier instruction, I'd recommend this link:
for Italian:
http://www.martinez-destreza.com/schermavideo.htm
for spanish:
http://www.martinez-destreza.com/destrezavideo.htm
Yarbols 5 years ago
sorry dood, dont speak any of those languages. But i didnt think there were actually maestri still around. Everyones into sport fencing now.. it so unrealistic... But since u cant find a good rapier vid online upload one for all of us to see?
Kiema43 5 years ago
Yarbols - Several years ago John Clements sparred a senior student of one of the IMAF mastros. The student had a epee and Clements was unarmed. Before you trash Clements you should find out the results of this match up.
ranpleasant 4 years ago
I'll Trash Clement! I and others have whooped his fake ass and his boyz ass' too! ARMA is BUll shit! Fake! TV?stage fighting.....
jadewillow 4 years ago
...What the hell?
Caliburnis 4 years ago
Plz fuck off
magnusolimpus 4 years ago
i'm at least 2 years trained at a IMAF instructed school, and while I may be a beginner, it would seem that I have enough experience with advanced rapierists to be able to recognize a rapier being used outside of the direction of form defining instructions of Capo Ferro, Alfieri, Fabris, Marozzo and about a dozen other masters. You don't know me Megadeath, so you shouldn't make assumptions.
Yarbols 5 years ago
you want to use cuts as a primary, use a saber.
Yarbols 5 years ago
Oookay, lets review---you say you are a BEGINNER, and here you are judging the skill of MAESTROS. That makes a WHOLE lot of sense. Next time, remember your place.
megadeath45 5 years ago
well I try not to overstep my bounds, know my limitations, and not to talk about what I don't know, but then I do have almost three years experience training with world recognized meastri, so just because I myself are not skilled as they, I can recognize bad form. I'll say this: these clips are bad form from what I have been learning from the meastri I have studied under. I do not, however, presume to speak for anyone other than my humble self.
Yarbols 5 years ago
If you want specific examples of what I am talking about I'll break it down for you... these are just two things things:
Yarbols 5 years ago
- bad footwork ...there is a preponderance of weight being kept on both fencer's forward legs. If you don't understand why this is bad form just look at the attack the left fencer (after the right fencer gives a weak attack, out of time with no apparent second intention) when he has a perfect opportunity to attack but cannot because all his weight is forward so when he tries to lunge his rear foot slips because it was not planted.
Yarbols 5 years ago