Beethoven Grosse Fuge pt-2

[unkyconcon]

If God could make love to my ears, he'd use Beethoven's music. It's like he's forgiving my many, many sins by giving Beethoven the gift of this music, which makes love in my ears.

[theflamingbanshees]

incredible.

its like watching a revolution.

[moonyyummy]

Definition of epic

[pbazant]

1:00 - 1:35 = musical orgasm, at least

[rafaricio]

6:07 tongue-finger!

xD

[klavierspieler72]

What a colossal performance, such intensity. I wish there were a film of this with the Fitzwilliam Quartet, one of my very favorite recordings.

[radstainforth]

Remember, this was originally the last movement of Beethoven's String Quartet Op. 130.

[DariusErrekaAlde]

Quien igualará una obra así,!!!! nadie solo Beethoven

[einootspork]

I wonder whether even Beethoven fully understood what he had created here!

[clindt]

That Beethoven was 1 mother!

[iateyourgranny]

if musical instruments could talk, this is what they would say

[octygirl]

something is very wrong at this piece.it's like he's losing it everytime he gets back on track.and he calms down in the end.sweetens up just like that only to start all over again.its just like a big fight.only at the very end nobody seems to win.

[einootspork]

@octygirl That's why it's great.

[octygirl]

@einootspork really?cause i just think it is liked only cause of its notoriety,and because we are too chicken too admit that he just lost it,just like with its forth symphony.people just feel the need to find themselves interesting and unique.so i just think its wrong and that he wanted to do something great but was really sidetracked by whatever his problems where.anyways i think many new age musicians owe him their ''avantgarde'' work.

[jbxd8]

nearly every great composer is german or austrian

[tagover]

I feel compelled to write something but this does not connect with words. It comes from and is about where words don't apply. One just knows that this is profound and deep with meaning without being able to say what that meaning is. This may be Beethoven's greatest but don't vote before hearing opus 132.

[sudrug]

@tagover , actually, historically, it's op 131 that's been voted #1 frequently. Shubert, for example, as a death-bed wish, chose to hear 131 .

[benkissinger]

@sudrug Those last two movements! Pure God-Defiance!

[benkissinger]

@sudrug I mean, 131

[Igneous01]

@sudrug yes - its op 131 that is considered to be his greatest achievement in string quartets. However Schubert also wrote amazing quartets - D804 and D887 are my personal favorite quartets by him.

[Kierkeguardian]

@sudrug Even so, Beethoven considered opus 132 to be his greatest achievement. I for one am partial to opus 135. No matter what they are all masterworks.

[sonicide1]

131 was Beethoven's favorite. He was wrong.

[Moon0Royalty]

Utterly compelling, yet I feel as if I do not and never will fully understand it...

[Lesolin]

Pro page turn at :49, haha.

[thegoddescomposer]

beethoven always been one with the whole universe

his music explain us how he should felt the pain the deafness his anger,

in his heart so intense energy and suffer

he unlocks doors where time not exist

there is a work of him MIssa Solemnis Op 123 a whole work writted for his god

on the 3th movement credo, there is a fuge with the text

I Wait For The Life Of The World To Come

[NetworkHaze]

Finally.

If God was to speak with Beethoven's music.

This piece explains why he forgives us.

[sudrug]

NetworkHaze,

Very well put.

[NetworkHaze]

Thanks.

[NetworkHaze]

This is not ugly. This is not beautiful. This is both of them.

This is how the world is created and connected with an unbreakable bound.

Cause:

*You can't be really beautiful if you don't feel ugly and humble.

*You can't be rich if you don't see yourself as a poor man.

*You can't be the greatest composer of all time if you are not deaf!

Every piece is carefully added in a way that can't be replaced.

Simply... Perfect.

[USABOYMAN]

Hard to believe this is Beethoven...

[grisgriz85]

@USABOYMAN Then you do not know late Beethoven. I do not know much either. It's very very profound.

[USABOYMAN]

@grisgriz85 You are right. Speaks of him as a GENIUS

[Pantarei]

This is THE FUGUE.

INDEED.

[YouMoreable]

Beethoven sure loved triplets

[spinoza1111]

Good point. A triplet, I think, generates the Kyrie Eleison of the Missa Solemnis.

[spinoza1111]

The cellist looks like Dustin Hoffman, and the violinist with the beard like Richard Dreyfuss...perhaps those two talented actors have a secret life! :-)

[valeriemd2b]

Dude! They do look like them, lol. Good eye ;)

[paolohudson]

A well deserved round of applause. what a mammoth of a piece!

[Juno476]

Silverlin212 and Paradise737, I agree 100%. It took me a few listens, decades ago, to know this piece and it still tears me deep inside to hear it played the way this quartet plays it. Brutal, intense, draining and yet tender when called for. It's a killer... If you want to object to my comments, please don't belittle yourself by bullying and swearing as so many do. Thanks.

[131alexa]

it's not beautiful but it's utterly compelling. Struggle of life. Love 1:29.

[thegoddescomposer]

those guys are so into the music , and thats make this piece so intense,

[Silverlin212]

It's my opinion that this is one Beethovens greatest works if not THE Greatest.

[Silverlin212]

IF Mozart's Jupiter symphony represented the realization of atonement with God, then Beethovens Grosse certainly represents the striving struggle that is the pathway.

[Paradise737]

Beethoven: the best artist of all time?

[violatione]

Great VIola playing!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[OaverevaO]

wow, part 2 really takes off.

[wnxg4nd4lf]

exquisite!

[renatocdesouza]

... and on the violin, Jack Sheppard hahahahahahahahahahahahah

[Cherodar]

The first time I heard this, I had to turn it off--it just sounded like harsh cacophony and nothing more, and I thought to myself, "Ah well, I love Beethoven, but I guess he'd really gone crazy by this point." But yet for some reason, I just couldn't stop myself from listening to it again and again despite that... I guess another part of me had subliminally already realised how great it was while my brain lagged behind. This piece is definitely hard to digest, but it's so worth it once you have.

[MusicLoverLondon]

This is ne of the best comments that I have ever read about Grosse Fugue I first heard the piece about thirty five years ago and didn't understand a 'word' of it but since than I have been drawn back to it dozens of times and every one of those have been more and more transfixed by its enormous power. I think Stravinsky said something like this piece is now, and will always be contemporary

[78625amginE]

That was exhausting! Thank you Beethoven and thank you Alban Berg Quartet for this very rewarding listening experience!

[gxfu0127]

i feel like i'm swimming in a tornado of furious sound. i don't care if other people don't understand it. it's beautiful to me.

[borminblood]

that iz soo true =]

[Jesuvl]

Please, for God's sake, never remove these pieces from the web, just please, never do it. Please.

[SwineForkbeard]

The notes from the recording I have quote Beethoven as saying after this was first performed "Why didn't they encore the fugue? That alone should have been repeated.  Cattle! Asses!"

[d60944]

I'm dubious about the quote. Beethoven knew this work was going to find a difficult place in public. He removed it from its intended place in the string quartet, replacing it with a much more slender piece instead. This fugue was then published seperately. He knew the public would fin it hard!

[Garret00074]

It is, at the very least, very modern. Unlike anything that had ever been written before. It's either the work of genius or madness. I think genius. It prefigures modern composition and even has elements of jazz.

I wonder what Beethoven could have done with all the technology we have now? That would be mind boggleing!

[fiddlinmatt]

As much of a violinist as I am, my favorite player here is the cellist! His right arm, the attacks, how he releases... and also the vibrato. The whole performance is really awesome. Very powerful.

[fiddlinmatt]

did anyone else notice the death-defying first violin page turn at :49? holy smokes!

[DeepGrey]

I really like that part from about 2:45 to 3:20. It's not just the melody I like but the harsh tone they play it with.

[bokajine]

i love how the peak of the drama at measure 493 is played here: 2:44

[vonspre]

EVERY NOTE of this work is a Landmark in the History of Human Being.

[thefrostflyer]

Oh My............................­...

[vegasking1000]

This masterpiece completely defines Beethoven. It is revolutionary, passionate, and above all, unassociated with the "rules" of the era in which it was written. In many ways it is centuries ahead of its time, and is, by far, one of the most outstanding pieces he ever wrote. It is impossible to fathom how he ever came to write such a thing while suffering from deafness. Beethoven never ceases to blow me away.

[LittleRedKing]

Amen to that!!!

[LDixon007]

Ha - someone else who realizes that it's centuries ahead of its time!

If this isn't his greatest work, then it's second only to the C#m quartet.

[dripglass]

'When I first read Shakespeare, much of it didn't make sense and even seemed gratuitous. Only after studying it and learning intricate nuisances did I start appreciating it.' hehe.. the Fugue may contain some intricate nuisances, but who cares? once you learn to listen to it, and you get into that place where the vortex of sound envelops you, then you know it's great, and discussing it is just an intellectual indulgence.. relatively few people will ever bother to appreciate this piece

[keimica]

those high notes should sound like weeping...but its pretty good performance..but should be more other worldly, beethoven considers it to be his greatest work...and he composed the 9th symphony!

[pedropiotr]

three in four are great performers

[johnmannno]

How the HELL did Czerny play this thing on the piano?!?! How did that Beethoven ever get that quartet (I forgot their name) to perform this?? Beethoven must have had some kick ass musicians as his friends...

[wagnertasos]

The greatest music ever written for a string quarted.Nothing more to be said.

[emilation11]

what a masterpiece. I love this so much. What a sence of hope in furious desperation, what a sharp observation of happiness, what an embracement of pain. Everything in a coat of classical harmony. What an anouncement of Shostakovich centuries ahead.

[vinciano]

One of the four greatest things ever in the history of music. The other are the first book of WTC, the Art of fugue and Tristan and Isolde.

[Verified1]

And to think this immortal masterpiece was panned by Beethoven's contemporaries. Nice performance - thanks for posting!

[hushih2222]

When I first read Shakespeare, much of it didn't make sense and even seemed gratuitous. Only after studying it and learning intricate nuisances did I start appreciating it. Same with many Bach compositions. Grosse Fuge does have its intellectual components, but goes far beyond that. You have to study it to appreciate it.

[TomChmelar]

I never studied Grosse Fugue in any way and still it´s my favourite piece from Beethoven. So I don´t really agree with you, sry.

[jannokas85]

Most people still dislike this at first...

[hushih2222]

Think about the fact that Beethoven originally wrote this as the sixth mvmt of his Bb quartet, and preceding it is the most beautiful Cavatina. I wish B hadn't acquiesced to his publisher and kept Grosse Fuge as the 6th mvmt. This contrast (in its tonality) and similarity (in its organic expression of most profound emotions) btwn the 2 is simply breath-taking.

[clowns789]

Except then it wouldn't be as famous as a 6th movement to a song as it would as a full one.

[hushih2222]

This music does require much listening, but I find myself appreciating it more as I listen to it repeatedly. What I hear is emotion so powerful that the limits of aesthetics has to be crossed to find its expression.

[classicalguss]

"What I hear is emotion so powerful that the limits of aesthetics has to be crossed to find its expression."

Were you the one who said that? Or did you take it from someone else?. Well in anyways, it's a very good comment!

[thatfunnynoise]

or the canonical instruments of past eras musicians would have studied as past composers but in this day and age easier to start a garage band,remembering the drums beethovens 2 of 9 is an exception,so modern rock isn't a low down a few said??

[thatfunnynoise]

that classical music declined as drum or percussion formed a major part of music,and a cheap drive,reason being that if it was still mainly string performances

[thatfunnynoise]

If I am wrong I am soo sorry but I had a few drinks and retrospected on my past viewing.I am not smart I WILL acknowlegde that no problem,I like music and did ok practically,but I was thinking of top marketing bands of each decade(22yrs old,me)and thought maybe

[thatfunnynoise]

umm,I like the beetles

[smitlag]

Amazing performance! I think this work has a great beauty of being unique. It is obviously 100 years ahead of it's time. The idea that music has to be pretty is ludicrous. Here is pure emotion put into musical form. Thanks for the many interesting comments on this fine performance of a great work.

[rabmunch]

None of this is mere idle or academic talk.Ideas have powerful effects over the great masters of the high arts.The discussions of the great critics (like Lessing, & not me) serve to educate those masters. In our day, when the arts are at their lowest point in the history of man, these questions are almost moot, ie from a practical point of view.

[sudrug]

rabmunch & lourak, while there may be differences of opinion on some of the general whys & wherefores, ultimately you both are in agreement at the bottom line. Let's face it, posting a comment while listening to the Grosse Fuge. . . doesn't get much better than that.

[rabmunch]

To say that there is order and coherent structure to this fugue, proves something, but very little. As you say, all the serious artists composed in this manner. The question is one of moral coherence of the passions within the limits of the audibly beautiful. Lessing has written a lovely letter on this in his Hamburg Dramaturgy 27

[dickdona]

The piece of music which puts Beethoven right into the 20th Century. Way ahead of his time.

[rabmunch]

Love of the truly great poet-composer-musician should never become sophisticated. If it does, it degrades taste and destroys feeling. Let us say that even in Beethoven's errors he shows his greatness: for they are great errors and point to the sublime. Neither Musicians nor musicologists can understand this.

[lourak]

Part 1

Again - I must respond to this point. Although there is a valuable kernel of insight in your thesis, I must protest against the broadness with which you express it. When "sophistication" (your word) is raised to the level of self-consciousness and becomes the sole filter through which one approaches his music listening, indeed, it can be an impediment to musical understanding.

[lourak]

Part 2

But analysis, I assure you, need not lead one astray in this manner. Come now - when you say: "Neither Musicians nor musicologists can understand this" - that's going a bit far, isn't it? Be Well!

[rabmunch]

I meant merely musicians or musicologists insofar as they think about music in that manner, as a performer or scholar. E.g. We can only analyze the various moods, or modes, because we sense the difference between them prior to any sophisticated learning, if we have discernment (which is admittedly very rare).

[rabmunch]

To make myself clearer: the scholar as scholar, or the performer is tempted to try to understand the great work in light of their own expertise and specialty. But the creator or great artist is never a specialist, and his art, its perfections, and limits can never be grasped from such a perspective. Musical analysis can show the technical structure of a piece. The purpose, and the meaning of the piece escape the quasi-mathematical analysis of its structure.

[hollermahler]

I'm not really sure what you're trying to say here. Who is to grasp the meaning of the piece, if not the scholar or performer? The average listener? "Meaning" and "purpose" are subjective ideas--anyone can say his or her view on the grosse fuge. At least the "quasi-mathematical" analysis brings to the piece a system of understanding.

[rabmunch]

I'm not really sure what comment of mine you are referring to. Nevertheless, it remains true that the "meaning of a piece" is not merely subjective or relative, though the ideas to which it becomes associated are decisive. Nobody in their right mind would say, for instance, that Beethoven's great fugue is a scherzo or joke, for instance. Whether the music he wrote goes beyond what even the most sensitive human can feel is another question. The whole issue goes beyond a youtube "debate".

[bullitosaladino]

People do have more of a sense of abstract understanding that is related. Just because something is abstract does not mean it is not unversally understandable. Abstractions can be objective too (not just subjective). Plus subjectivity is all we really have. The guy who sayd he like the harsh tone from 2:45 to 3:2o was more honest than you.

[hollermahler]

More honest than me? I'm not sure what you mean.

"Abstractions can be objective too (not just subjective). Plus subjectivity is all we really have." Talk about a contradiction! Care to explain that nugget of gold?

[bullitosaladino]

The point of the Grosse fugue is that anyone can say his or her view on it. What we do understand are its abstract qualities: like we understand that it has a violent character. We understand that it has the sound of determination in most Beethoven. And we understand these universally - we usually all agree on them - even the average listener will agree on the tone and emotions present in a piece.

[bullitosaladino]

What we don't all agree on is thet theory and math behind it. Immediate honest reactions to music are very important. Then it is important to ask why you feel that way and what about the music makes you feel that way.

[rabmunch]

Beethoven introduced moral and emotional confusion into many of his late compositions. There is no reason to deny this. The question is why?, and whether he compromised his art and genius when he did so. As I said, Goethe suggests that Beethoven misunderstood the emotional limits of music. Nowadays, musicologists are neither willing nor able to ask such questions.

[rabmunch]

Finally, I add: Nietzsche also held that Beethoven put extreme confusion and incompleteness into these late pieces. (in particular 109,110,111) He, however, approves of this, because of how he conceives of the creative power of the artist. The older view was that imitation had natural limits. Nietzsche approves of Beethoven's violations of these ideas. Whether he is right I am utterly unable to say.

[elcucca]

Der sordo is a verdadero deo molto!!!

[aptheo]

amazing performance! definietly goosebumps :)

[Sausahga]

Too bad Beethoven didn't decide to take its <i>oddities</i> a whole lot further -- he'd likely have been considered a truly outrageous revolutionary and seminal father of <i>the moderns!</i>

[Sausahga]

I suppose if I were confined to making one, single comment about it that would have to be, "It's out of tune." We know that it goes without saying that there have been countless composers who intended their compositions to be out-of-tune but that was never something Beethoven ever thought of doing. Judd may have made that comment having heard so much *modern* composers who had "out-of-tune" very specifically in mind for their compositions.

[lourak]

There is nothing "out of tune" in this piece, except where the performer is stressed to his limit, which can occur in a few sections. As far as musical dissonance is concerned, I have spent years studying this piece, and I can assure you, that every suspended harmony is either resolved in accordance with traditional practice, or when not, the compositional intent is alway to hint at the proper resolution and deliberately move elsewhere harmonically for effect.

Continued in next post:

[lourak]

Continuation from previous post:

In fact, in those areas where harmonic analysis is difficult, you will inevitably find unusual rhythmic devices and repetitions accompanying the ambiguity, to raise it to self conciousness. Much, much more can obviously be said, but time and space are limited.

[rabmunch]

Music is not intended to be read or analyzed but to be heard. That is the limitation of the art form, if you will. Just as sculpture and painting must be seen and not heard. And poetry cannot be seen. He who mixes or confuses these approaches ugliness. The ancients had the privilege to seek out the supreme & beautiful in everything. Beethoven went beyond the limits of the art, and compromised himself. Why he did this is a serious question that I am not able to answer.

[rabmunch]

Those who read into scores by means of contemporary technical analysis fail to understand the music. It is like trying to understand Homer, Aeschylus, or Shakespeare by analyzing metre, or verse length, or the proportions of verse to prose. Music is not mathematical in its effects.

[lourak]

Part 1

You raise some valid points and I don't necessarily disagree with the overall tenor of what you're saying (if I understand you correctly). Just to correct one point - the "technical analysis" of music is not a "contemporary" phenomenon. Beethoven, Mozart, Bach and all composers since them, studied harmonic analysis in a most rigorous manner.

[lourak]

Part 2

Had they not, they could never have composed the music that we all love. It has been my experience as a professional pianist and composer, that analysis has helped me to appreciate music that aurally was often beyond my intuitive grasp. The Grosse Fuge is one such example. Much more to be said, but let's leave it there for now. Thanks for responding!

[rabmunch]

To whomever it interests: everything I have said is discussed with greater sensitivity, subtlety, and penetration in Lessing's Laocoon, which is where I learned it. Anyone interested in the beautiful and the limited proper place of all the arts, owes it to themselves to study that book with extaordinary care.

I would almost say, that it is indispensible for us today, when taste has been well nigh obliterated.

[norcalrobbie2]

It is not "out of tune." Despite his deafness, Beethoven was no dud. He knew fully what he was doing, or else all of his compositions after he went completely deaf would be, as you call it, "out of tune." The Grosse Fuge's dissonances are intentional, and Beethoven created dissonances in many other works, even those before he went deaf- this one just has more of them. It's part of his innovation!

[elcarlitos23]

its a raw piece no doubt but the context is more modern i think thats y this piece is consider revolutionary

[sudrug]

The English conductor, James Judd, said in 2003, referring to Grosse Fuge, that it was more advanced than any music wriitn before it, and more advanced than any music written since.

[Sausahga]

Oh, was he stone-deaf or what by the time he wrote this crap! No one would be kind enough to say, "Quit it! Your hearing's gone now and everybody can tell."

[sudrug]

Although I don't agree with you at all, others in my family do. Everyone else heads for the hills whenever I play this fuge. Thanks for your honest reply.

[pofacimo]

Maybe the deafness was an advantage. This might sound ridiculous, but maybe not being able to hear meant that Beethoven wasn't so concerned with immediately attractive sounds and could focus on the structure of the work.

[LittleRedKing]

I think that he knew exactly what it sounded like. And he knew that it sounded beautiful. There is no accident in this, only pure genius.

[Mrlogie]

I completely understand this work of art. I quite cannot understand though how so many cannot see the truth and beauty within it, instead only seeing complexity "or ugliness". How can you not find what this music contains inside your soul? Ugliness with beauty is all in the soul. God created both in the human nature, so how can you not find them. Maybe you are too afraid to face it. The music should dig deep within the soul and pull out the pain and relief. But in your case I don't think it has.

[rabmunch]

Beethoven himself would never accept what is here said about the ugly in the art of music. He never thought for one second that he was representing the ugly. Never. He thought he could push the limits of the art because he believed the truly great artist was in fact creative and not merely imitative. Goethe suggests that this was his error.