Its great to see you trying, and you are correct, there is a long long way to go and you will unfortunately not succeed with this system, but its fun.
another thought i wanted to share.. from personal experience i just dont see it remotely possible to get the potential or current you need from those gen coils unless the gen magnets are NSNS fashion. im pretty sure you would agree the NS would at least work better. so the question is would adding NS magnets on the inner diameter with additional coils for them just allow lenz a way to step in full force, assuming he was somehow beat before-hand with the present coils.
great setup.. im having the same problems. getting great motor performance using a push/pull setup but not getting anywhere near enough from the gen coils. fairly similar results but im using thicker gauge coils. im guessing this is why Mullers design used "super magnets" whatever those are.
Hi, it is not hard to reduce most of the losses in this motor. The rotor MUST have very little wind drag. Very little metal must be used to limit eddie current loss. Small or thin ferrite cores must be used to reduce magnetic drag. Bias magnets will reduce cogging. All this will let the efficiency get close to 100%. For OU something else is needed. It is likely that the two opposing bias magnets on both sides of the rotor magnet allows for the symmetry of magnetic field to be broken....
i have to say something here. its lenzless that romero ADDED to the muller to make it work. but that it, the repelling magnet design works on ANY type of standered generator type. the muller generator is efficient yes but with out the LENZLESS design incorporated it will not work. further more. it was my idea - a development of the lenzless. an iv taken down vidoes now because im not happy about it. he didnt come up with either design - just stuck two together.
@k4zep ------The project has taken a turn at this point and the "generator" coil problem must be solved before I can go much further. It is a case of backtracking to see what is wrong. The basic design I put together may be wrong or It might be something simplier. Either way my test rig isn't working like Romero's. The gap between input and output power is way way too much.
Lid we ALL learn some thing new from your video's i hope you know that we appreciate every thing you do, i view the lid version cause i know its going to be more than fun. Thanks so much man sincerley Ash
@ashtweth ----Thanks Ash. I don't know where this project is going to end up. I have already learned how to make a niffty little axial flux generator though and I may use that knowledge to build a wind turbine for the boat. I always wanted one of those.
@Jetijs -----Yes the rotor slows down (good ole Lenz law at work) but when you bias the coil correctly with a magnet, the drag is greatly reduced. I would love to see you build one of these and tell us what you think. You don't pull any punches and people trust what you say.
Might be an important factor that placing another magnet at the back of the coil will guide the magnetic field much better through the coil. And it is known that the stronger the field, the better is the conversion of the mechanical energy to electric. Though, too much attraction without proper back EMF elimination might make the device go to a dead position quickly. Made some simulations and adding ferite tube around the coil further guides the MF(not tested).
@jozsab1 -----Thanks. It is the conversion from mechanical energy to electrical energy that is at the heart of this project. According to "the rules" Romero's device shouldn't work. Something is wrong with this picture. Remember those tests that we used to take in school? This reminds me of that. Something is wrong. We just need to stare at it long enough to figure it out. Either "the rules" have to change a little or Romero's magic Muller will never be understood and was just a fake.
Lid, not sure if this helps, but in an experiment I did with conversion of DC solar cell output to AC for distance travel I came across this MIT paper regarding integrated CMOS based rectification of a very low voltage loss. See autoid . mit. edu /pickup/RFID_Papers/102.pdf - for a circuit where you lose .x volts instead of volts.
One more thing comes to my mind; if there is a relation between the magnet strength and the gap. What magnet does is biasing Bloch Wall within a coil but at the same time the gap may have to be adjust accordingly. Core material is also a variable. Just thinking loud.
What's the big deal??? Increase your RPM and the volts on your output coils will increase accordingly. RPM has absolutely no relationship with you input voltage. You have just built a pulse motor who's RPM is low for their your input voltage. FIX THIS FIRST! Don't go blaming the low voltage on your output coils just because you can't build a high RPM pulse motor...
@m1a9r9s9 -----The problem is that Romero did not run his on high RPM but I know what you are saying. Just rev the thing up and up goes the pick up coil voltage. I still think that there is a trick to how he got more power out than he put in.
His RPM was higher than people realise. Look at his input power, at least 12 watts!!! Do you know how much RPM you can get for that amount of power! Powerfull neo magnets at high RPM will give you as much output voltage as you want for those small coils. You have weaker magnets at low RPMs. If you think you should be able to scale things down and it be relative, this is unlikely as you need to get to a certain size to overcome inherent friction, magnetic drag and eddie current loss factors...
@m1a9r9s9 -----I have been thinking about this alot and I believe that you are right. First the RPM has to be high enough to get the power out. When I rev mine up that is exactly what happens. Second I cannot draw conclusions from a down scaled inaccurate model. The people who are sticking to Romero's excact specs have a much better grasp of what is happening. I'm still worried that the energy losses due to friction and heat are going to be tough to overcome.
Elegant work Lidmotor, it is always a pleasure to see you great insights coupled to your fine technical ingenuity, not to mention persistence! I'd have thrown in the towel and the coil already. aloha
Hi Lidmotor, nice setup, I understand the problem you're having, that one coil alone really needs to give you the right voltage. I worked with a voltage critical project a few years ago. I see you're using a standard full wave bridge rectifier. You're losing over a volt right there. Buy these diodes at mouser.com 95SQ015 Schottky: They only drop 30 mili-volts each, standard diodes inside rectifiers drop around 700, place 4 of these in a rectifier configuration, and you'll have a HIGHLY efficien
@mrBr00k5 -----Many thanks for that tip. I knew that I was losing energy in that bridge rectifier and I was hoping that someone had an answer to that problem. A 30 milli volt drop is ok. Losing a whole volt is not.
Great stuff. Romero talked about tuning with a load, for this specific load, not sure if that applies at this point in your experiments, i'm kinda newbie here ;) keep it up.
@psaiipsaii ----Romero supplied a great deal of information on this device and it looked very easy to replicate. I don't think that it is that easy now. My "learning tool" was not a replication but merely a way to look at aspects of the device.
@wopwops0482 ---No the way that he did it was he wired the two opposing coils in series then he paralled all the pairs. There as very good diagrams posted on all the details of this device.
Lid, what if you raise input voltage? Sort of like in Bedini circuits when real action happens over 24V and at least 1A. Maybe there is a treshold under which we won't see any "magic". I'm thinking in terms of BEMF which may not be linear. What do you think?
@blackchisel97 -----You might be VERY right about that. This might require a certain voltage to work. When the other replicators get theirs running we know more.
It would be cool if you could attach a rod to the wheel like the old steam trains had to convert the circular motion to linear motion, and have the rod move back and forth through the center of a generator coil like the ones inside of the shake up flashlights.
Thank you for sharing your evaluations of the RomeroUK like motor. I hope you will continue to get closer to his set up with the right coils/core and magnet/bearings to make a factual determination.
Its great to see you trying, and you are correct, there is a long long way to go and you will unfortunately not succeed with this system, but its fun.
Good luck
abm3152 6 months ago
Hi Lidmotor.I've gotten behind on your videos sorry.Looking good!!! Added to my Favorites.Tec
tectalabyss 8 months ago
another thought i wanted to share.. from personal experience i just dont see it remotely possible to get the potential or current you need from those gen coils unless the gen magnets are NSNS fashion. im pretty sure you would agree the NS would at least work better. so the question is would adding NS magnets on the inner diameter with additional coils for them just allow lenz a way to step in full force, assuming he was somehow beat before-hand with the present coils.
Magneticitist 9 months ago
@Magneticitist -----I really don't know what is right or wrong on this design.
Lidmotor 9 months ago
great setup.. im having the same problems. getting great motor performance using a push/pull setup but not getting anywhere near enough from the gen coils. fairly similar results but im using thicker gauge coils. im guessing this is why Mullers design used "super magnets" whatever those are.
Magneticitist 9 months ago
Hi, it is not hard to reduce most of the losses in this motor. The rotor MUST have very little wind drag. Very little metal must be used to limit eddie current loss. Small or thin ferrite cores must be used to reduce magnetic drag. Bias magnets will reduce cogging. All this will let the efficiency get close to 100%. For OU something else is needed. It is likely that the two opposing bias magnets on both sides of the rotor magnet allows for the symmetry of magnetic field to be broken....
m1a9r9s9 9 months ago
Thought you might find this interesting - Super capacitors
.zdnet.com/blog/green/researchers-new-supercapacitor-acts-like-energy-sponge/17389
jajessee 9 months ago
is it maybe, solid state spikes? buckboost or ac clamp doublers?
JP
UrCoffeeTastesToasty 9 months ago
i have to say something here. its lenzless that romero ADDED to the muller to make it work. but that it, the repelling magnet design works on ANY type of standered generator type. the muller generator is efficient yes but with out the LENZLESS design incorporated it will not work. further more. it was my idea - a development of the lenzless. an iv taken down vidoes now because im not happy about it. he didnt come up with either design - just stuck two together.
lykenth08 9 months ago
An excellent evaluation LidMotor! This is where most builders will stop! Keep at it!
k4zep 9 months ago
@k4zep ------The project has taken a turn at this point and the "generator" coil problem must be solved before I can go much further. It is a case of backtracking to see what is wrong. The basic design I put together may be wrong or It might be something simplier. Either way my test rig isn't working like Romero's. The gap between input and output power is way way too much.
Lidmotor 9 months ago
@Lidmotor Would a thinner gauge magnet wire winding on your coils raise the voltage?
I'm thinking that would raise your voltage, but you'd probably lose on the current.
spikeychops 9 months ago
Lid we ALL learn some thing new from your video's i hope you know that we appreciate every thing you do, i view the lid version cause i know its going to be more than fun. Thanks so much man sincerley Ash
ashtweth 9 months ago
@ashtweth ----Thanks Ash. I don't know where this project is going to end up. I have already learned how to make a niffty little axial flux generator though and I may use that knowledge to build a wind turbine for the boat. I always wanted one of those.
Lidmotor 9 months ago
Hi Lidmotor, great video as always. Does the rotor slow down when you put the magnet biased coil near it?
Jetijs 9 months ago
@Jetijs -----Yes the rotor slows down (good ole Lenz law at work) but when you bias the coil correctly with a magnet, the drag is greatly reduced. I would love to see you build one of these and tell us what you think. You don't pull any punches and people trust what you say.
Lidmotor 9 months ago
Might be an important factor that placing another magnet at the back of the coil will guide the magnetic field much better through the coil. And it is known that the stronger the field, the better is the conversion of the mechanical energy to electric. Though, too much attraction without proper back EMF elimination might make the device go to a dead position quickly. Made some simulations and adding ferite tube around the coil further guides the MF(not tested).
Really nice work so far. Congrats
jozsab1 9 months ago
@jozsab1 -----Thanks. It is the conversion from mechanical energy to electrical energy that is at the heart of this project. According to "the rules" Romero's device shouldn't work. Something is wrong with this picture. Remember those tests that we used to take in school? This reminds me of that. Something is wrong. We just need to stare at it long enough to figure it out. Either "the rules" have to change a little or Romero's magic Muller will never be understood and was just a fake.
Lidmotor 9 months ago
thanks for some ideas lidmotor:) as soon as i get some cement i'll try out
g11690102 9 months ago
Lid, not sure if this helps, but in an experiment I did with conversion of DC solar cell output to AC for distance travel I came across this MIT paper regarding integrated CMOS based rectification of a very low voltage loss. See autoid . mit. edu /pickup/RFID_Papers/102.pdf - for a circuit where you lose .x volts instead of volts.
KyleCarrington 9 months ago
Comment removed
KyleCarrington 9 months ago
One more thing comes to my mind; if there is a relation between the magnet strength and the gap. What magnet does is biasing Bloch Wall within a coil but at the same time the gap may have to be adjust accordingly. Core material is also a variable. Just thinking loud.
blackchisel97 9 months ago
@beac310 ------The other replicators will be reporting in a week or so and I will be able to see if they found a solution or not.
Lidmotor 9 months ago
What's the big deal??? Increase your RPM and the volts on your output coils will increase accordingly. RPM has absolutely no relationship with you input voltage. You have just built a pulse motor who's RPM is low for their your input voltage. FIX THIS FIRST! Don't go blaming the low voltage on your output coils just because you can't build a high RPM pulse motor...
m1a9r9s9 9 months ago
@m1a9r9s9 -----The problem is that Romero did not run his on high RPM but I know what you are saying. Just rev the thing up and up goes the pick up coil voltage. I still think that there is a trick to how he got more power out than he put in.
Lidmotor 9 months ago
His RPM was higher than people realise. Look at his input power, at least 12 watts!!! Do you know how much RPM you can get for that amount of power! Powerfull neo magnets at high RPM will give you as much output voltage as you want for those small coils. You have weaker magnets at low RPMs. If you think you should be able to scale things down and it be relative, this is unlikely as you need to get to a certain size to overcome inherent friction, magnetic drag and eddie current loss factors...
m1a9r9s9 9 months ago
@m1a9r9s9 -----I have been thinking about this alot and I believe that you are right. First the RPM has to be high enough to get the power out. When I rev mine up that is exactly what happens. Second I cannot draw conclusions from a down scaled inaccurate model. The people who are sticking to Romero's excact specs have a much better grasp of what is happening. I'm still worried that the energy losses due to friction and heat are going to be tough to overcome.
Lidmotor 9 months ago
Elegant work Lidmotor, it is always a pleasure to see you great insights coupled to your fine technical ingenuity, not to mention persistence! I'd have thrown in the towel and the coil already. aloha
jackscholze 9 months ago
@jackscholze------I think that in a week or two this mystery will go away ---one way or another. It was either real or an extremely good hoax.
Lidmotor 9 months ago
efficient rectifier, and that means much more available voltage. Good luck!
mrBr00k5 9 months ago
Hi Lidmotor, nice setup, I understand the problem you're having, that one coil alone really needs to give you the right voltage. I worked with a voltage critical project a few years ago. I see you're using a standard full wave bridge rectifier. You're losing over a volt right there. Buy these diodes at mouser.com 95SQ015 Schottky: They only drop 30 mili-volts each, standard diodes inside rectifiers drop around 700, place 4 of these in a rectifier configuration, and you'll have a HIGHLY efficien
mrBr00k5 9 months ago
@mrBr00k5 -----Many thanks for that tip. I knew that I was losing energy in that bridge rectifier and I was hoping that someone had an answer to that problem. A 30 milli volt drop is ok. Losing a whole volt is not.
Lidmotor 9 months ago
Great stuff. Romero talked about tuning with a load, for this specific load, not sure if that applies at this point in your experiments, i'm kinda newbie here ;) keep it up.
psaiipsaii 9 months ago
@psaiipsaii ----Romero supplied a great deal of information on this device and it looked very easy to replicate. I don't think that it is that easy now. My "learning tool" was not a replication but merely a way to look at aspects of the device.
Lidmotor 9 months ago
I think they're saying wired in series, not parallel, on the overunity thread.
wopwops0482 9 months ago
@wopwops0482 ---No the way that he did it was he wired the two opposing coils in series then he paralled all the pairs. There as very good diagrams posted on all the details of this device.
Lidmotor 9 months ago
Lid, what if you raise input voltage? Sort of like in Bedini circuits when real action happens over 24V and at least 1A. Maybe there is a treshold under which we won't see any "magic". I'm thinking in terms of BEMF which may not be linear. What do you think?
blackchisel97 9 months ago
@blackchisel97 -----You might be VERY right about that. This might require a certain voltage to work. When the other replicators get theirs running we know more.
Lidmotor 9 months ago
It would be cool if you could attach a rod to the wheel like the old steam trains had to convert the circular motion to linear motion, and have the rod move back and forth through the center of a generator coil like the ones inside of the shake up flashlights.
72fr250 9 months ago
@72fr250 ----The problem is friction---but it is an interesting idea.. Thanks
Lidmotor 9 months ago
no back emf consideration i see on the muller setup. thank you for posting your progress, i love tuning in!
camelsonhorizon 9 months ago
@camelsonhorizon -------Thanks. It is a fun hobby.
Lidmotor 9 months ago
Thank you for sharing your evaluations of the RomeroUK like motor. I hope you will continue to get closer to his set up with the right coils/core and magnet/bearings to make a factual determination.
nonesounique 9 months ago
@nonesounique -----Keep watching Youtube for Muller replications. There should be a bunch coming out soon.
Lidmotor 9 months ago