Another Clicker horse, David Lee Archer .wmv

[ebonpharo]

She reminds me of my Silver Lilly. Loved the part when she was following you and on the camera!

[gohippy1]

I feel like I'm preaching to the choir. LOL Either they get hurt a little bit and realize what isn't working for them, or they get hurt alot and get out of horses. I hope they look over your videos and see the changes in the horse before any of those things happen. Anyhoo I've been trying to watch the videos starting at the beginning. On one it said you had a book available at amazon. If you hear of anyone willing to sell there's for starving student price, I'd be really interested.

[gohippy1]

egads my stomach just turned. I new the number would be low, I didn't think it would be that low. So many rescues full of horses with so many agressive behaviours. Most of them man made. Very sad. You've been bashed bad on this video, even people posting links to their own training video and all you've asked is they go volunteer at their local horse rescue. I hope they take you up on that. I believe the horses will tell them more than any person ever could.

[david12000000]

Oh they can come by here anytime,people want to see what they want to see plus get their agend taken care of plus I show something easy that works... and doesnt take a master to do.. it is taking money out of their pocket.. Clicker people are going to get a ram page,,, I am treating a horse like a horse .. not a darn dog.. Plus you look at every video there is a comman thread every horse is right their with me.. With out anything...I leave their comments up just to show how closed minded

[gohippy1]

Unless you teach the horse that you are a capable leader then they will resort to what comes natural.  I'm just saying, although you might be able to teach a horse to curtsey using treats it doesn't transfer over to what's really important to the horse. With all your years of experience working with all different kinds of horses with all different kinds of problems, how many would you consider "born mean" ? I know you're extremely busy just whenever you have a moment I'd be interested to know.

[david12000000]

Of all the thousands of horse I have handle... I would say Two..,, with that said there is one of TB that is known to be mean...I have handled enough of them ,, I will not train them for the normal person..Or will I take them at the rescue..

[gohippy1]

Hi again David, you brought up something that's very important to me. You have way more experience with horses then I do so I look at things from a much greener perspective. To me, we simply do not spend 24 hours a day working with our horses. So when we aren't working with them they are behaving what comes natural to the horse. Horses natural response to fear is not to put it's head down and start eating grass.

dern utube....there's more to this post

[gohippy1]

Thanks David for getting back so quickly. Knowing horses are usually quite clausterphobic and seeing you are working in a fairly confined space, add to that this horse's history. You've done an awesome job with her! You obviously spend time working the emotional side of a horse.

[david12000000]

Thanks everyone their after one time couldnt believe the difference in that horse.. Even now she is a pleasure to handle and guess what after two times no clicker are the use of treats she like being around people ,, why cause she finally feels safe. A ;hors like her that is where her behaver is coming from ,, sure you could done alot with treats but you are not fixing anything you are just getting a behaver from food not the mind .. About truely fulfiling the horse's needs..not yours

[gohippy1]

I see an opinionated horse. She's appears curious though so that's a good thing. There's lots I really like in this video. David, if you read this can you tell me how this horse reacted to pressure when you first started working her?

I do use the roundpen, not to join up but to make sure I can move a horse away from me and respect my space and have some directional control of the feet.

[david12000000]

well she was running over people and would kick you to get you out of space in need be...she moved off ,, I use the round pen the same as you are saying.. not around and around but change them up.. back and forth.

[ebonpharo]

From what I see, and I haven't watched all of the videos but when you are using the clicker I have to agree it is more of a pressure release. Just like horses in the wild, or a mare with a foal by her side.  It's all about respect and space. And seeing you as the leader. If that makes sense.

[david12000000]

it is that simple,, but some people see what they want to see... plus I had some people face to face to talk to them . By some response's I could tell them alot about themselfs.lol

[GoingForBroken]

To persons who are upset by david12000000's video--look at MY video, if you want something worth bawling about!

[GoingForBroken]

Obviously, you've accomplished a lot with this mare, and I congratulate you for that. However, clicker aka marker training has positive, feel-good connotations. Traditionally, the clicker is a marker for desired behavior. The trainer has bridged from the treats to the clicker so that the clicker becomes a replacement for food treats. In your case, you've bridged from aversive stimulous (whip) to the clicker. More next post...

[GoingForBroken]

In stead of using the clicker as a reward substitute, you're using it as a punishment substitute. It is marker training turned upside down. Technically speaking, it is incorrect to call what you're doing 'clicker training.' What you're doing works, as we see. Now, how about trying true clicker/marker training? I would bet you'll find a mixture of both to be useful, depending on the situation. You seem to have the common misunderstanding of the role of 'treats' in clicker training. More next...

[GoingForBroken]

The pleasant stimulus doesn't have to be 'treats' it can be a good rub on the withers,etc. Treats are usually used in the beginning because most horses are powerfully motivated by food rewards. Look up lphantman videos here; obviously a real masculine guy, lphantman uses clicker training even for African elephants! As you know, African elephants are true wild animals and very challenging to train. Check out the book A Cowboy and his Elephant, which features lphantman.

[david12000000]

Well actually the aversiive thing is making the horse , I one could use a rope or my body but the horses I deal with you wont dare get that close them.. LOL Or So it is the making them move ,, heck the whip most the time dont even touch the horse then after one or two times I dont need anything they are there with me.That simple.. Now I wonder I change the whip a orange stick what would be said..LOLAlot of times I just say O-Han instead of the clicker..

[GoingForBroken]

That's right, aversive stimulus can be be used effectively and often, humanely. But I think you can see the difference between what is accepted as "clicker" training and what you're doing, which is still effective and (the way you do it) humane.

[david12000000]

I replied to this but darn thing didnt show up.. it isnt the whip,, it making them move I could use a rope or just my body.But the horse I use the clicker on will more likely kick your head off if you get close to them .

Heck most of the time the whip dont really touch them.Now I wonder if I change to a orange stick what people would say..

After usally one session I dont need anythign the horse is right there with me and wants to be.Like I said if I was throwing a rope at the hip,would be df

[GoingForBroken]

Orange stick--you mean that longe whip painted orange and overpriced and sold to delicate my little pony types? ;) What you're doing works, but I don't think you are quite "there" on the science of it in the way you speak of it. Heck, I'm not either!!! Still trying to understand the technicalities! Google for 'operant conditioning' for the science of it, if you care to. Negative reinforcement is the removal of aversive stimlus for desired behavior and positive is reward for behavior. Both needed

[david12000000]

It funny no has asked why I am so against treats.LOL I have a no treat rule here.. The reason being here at the rescue I see so many horses come in that is so aggressive and alot of it comes from the treats.Now it is the treats themselfs..Most people dont know where to draw the line.. the think ok a litle works good so lets go all out.. I sure dont mind talking about it..Plus I am honest about it ,, I like the fact the horse wants to stay with me because it wants to..

[stonedragonfarm]

This is NOT clicker training! this man knows nothing about how to use a clicker correctly. This is WHIP training.

As to david12000000, you are as clueless as the idiot in this video. The point of clicker training is NON-VIOLENT training. You should open your mind and try it sometime. The old method of training with violence is obsolete and should be illegal. So should fools like this guy being anywhere near horses.

[GoingForBroken]

I wouldn't go so far as to call david12000000 an idiot. He obviously has lots of patience and is willing to take the time to get results. He just happened to use the wrong terminology. Lots of people do.

[david12000000]

lets see the horse is standing there licking and chewing,she isnt nervouse she is standing there like a good girll..... so why the hell are crying... LOL...

Give me a break,,,, LOL Before all of this the mare would run over you and was jumpy would kick out at you and now she isnt... I say if you have to depend of treats to train a horse it you who needs to re think things or buy a dog..

I read all the comments and watch the horse and I have to say I laugh the comments.

[angeleasfeathers]

Positive reinforcement is better than traditional negative training without risks of detrimental side effects aversives :

Escape avoidance behavior

Increased aggression

Apathy overall reduction in activity

Generalized fear of the environment

Learned helplessness

Animal trained in negative reinforcement work at level necessary to avoid negative stimulus.

Animal trained with positive reinforcement look forward to training sessions will be more creative attentive.

[rossmanf]

This made me cry and not in a good way. For anyone watching this video who has never been exposed to clicker, I BEG YOU please view the many other clicker videos that use the click as it was intended. Learn about the science behind it and why it works. This is the antithesis of everything clicker training is about.

[RedPineMountain]

I don't see this as "clicker training" as taught by the experts. I see you click before you even ask for a behavior and then swing a whip. Why are you clicking before you request a behavior? Is it to let her know you are going to swing the whip? If so, that's negative reinforcement and most clicker trainers are using positive reinforcement.

I was skeptical too until I tried it but now I know it works.

[mjmvet]

I don't think anyone meant to say this isn't good training. I'm glad it works for you. There is a LOT more to clicker training however - this isn't really an accurate representation of what is involved with operant conditioning. Best wishes!

[horsemansarts]

I know you are seeing improvements with your horses--but you don't really know why. If you study the science you -could- turn the click into a tool for positive reinforcement even without food.

Right now, you are UNDER utilizing the power of the clicker by using it as a cue and an a warning, rather than as a marker and reward. **Reward doesn't have to be food.**

I would be happy to explain how to flip this around for you so you can take it to the next level. Good luck!

[darste2]

I'm a bit confused by your use of the clicker in your video.

I note that you click and then when the horse does not respond you add a swing of the whip.

Technically that is adding an aversive which is termed positive (add) punishment.

Normally, clicker training is associated with adding of a reward for correct behavior.

Your click indicates that she'd better do the work or a punishment is about to happen.

[ivyschex]

The idea of clicker training, which is specifically operant conditioning, is one of positive reinforcement. I am sure you can train your horses the way you do in the video, but as there is not positive reinforcement, it can't be called "clicker training." It is simply different from what clicker training really is.

Merry Christmas!

[LupusLudi]

This is very interesting. What do you use to reinforce the behaviors you want if you don't use rewards? The clicker itself is not rewarding, it's just a sound, so I'm curious how you use it to encourage repetitive behavior.

[zephyrsmum]

This is really sad. It is not clicker training! Don't know what it is. I'm as confused as the horse looks. Please do some research on your own into the science before buying into something like this. I have five clicker trained horses. Two were started earlier with a different method and they both followed me around like that but after clicker something much deeper developed. Do the research, work with your horse with real clicker training and then watch this again.

[david12000000]

Well that is funny the person owns the horse couldnt believe the change in the horse in a few mintues.. oh that is right didnt use treats or run it around in a round pen for a hour and tire it out..

[zephyrsmum]

Well, oddly enough my horses have never been in a round pen and that isn't even a part of clicker training so that proves my point. I won't argue with you because it is useless as you haven't studied clicker training. I'm happy your client is pleased hope that continues in the years to come.

[darste2]

I'm sure there was a change in the horse. Many methods work to create change. Your method shows a "marker" which is the click uses as an indicator that punishment is about to happen.

It is being used as a threat. Nuns in Catholic schools used to do this. They'd click just before they rapped the hands of the students.

I've met people that could not stand to hear a click because of this treatment.

[MrsBurke1208]

This video was great! I always stayed away from clicker training because I thought you HAD to start out with treats. Im heading to your website now! Please keep the videos coming, your one of my favorite trainers and have helped me so much with rehabilitating my mare (she was an abused horse then rescued and thrown out to pasture for 8 years with no human contact before she came to me). Your videos have helped me improve my training skills and I couldn't thank you more!

[david12000000]

if you notice in all my videos, I have the same repor with the horses.. I try to be fair to them and truly fulfil their needs and treats isnt the way.. That is for us humans more than for the horse. Not sure when the whole video will be on the new website.But with the new site will be offering alot more.. Just a few hints, want to do a weekly chat room thing..

Plus get a blog going ,I see a true need to get people back to true horsemanship , also give the horse its dignigty back.

[MegF142857]

This is different method of clicker than I've seen before. There are no treats involved. Usually I see horse do behavior you want, then click to say yes to horse, then treat as reward. -- I hope you can explain your clicker method more on other videos. Really cool how she follows you.