Al-Dura Trial: Exclusive Reaction From the Paris Courtroom

[aniketranade]

Okay...Let me break it down for you numbnut french people...Do you know the only thing dumber than taking on the jews in a media war??

Taking them on in a courtroom!...LOL

And BTW....how about worrying about the crazy muslims in your own country.....your doing quite a job there i hear...:))

[Leinad28mirup]

I am pro-Israel however, I am disgusted with honest reporting. They are anything but HONEST. My sister donated alot of money to them and one of the reporters Elad Rubin targeted her. We haven't seen her for 3 years, his family brainwashed her against her own family and stole our family business in London. When we asked Aryeh Green, an American, Elad's boss in honest reporting to help, he was very abusive and rude. We even helped Aryeh Green get media exposure on revelation tv - Christian zionist

[Muzzy12]

so, all of this energy spent on clearing up just one case of Israel murdering a child?

Even if it's fake, so what? We already know Israel kills children. It's nothing new. You swine act like Al-Dura is Israel's first-ever fuck-up, and that their record would be spotless without this event.

If nothing else, the video serves as a good dramatic depiction of Israel doing what it does best.

[persianlions]

@Muzzy12 You lost your credibility at " Even if its a fake, so what?.

[jhall38]

The prophet muhammed is the terrorist, not Israel. All of this lying is in his spirit. His words are providing the fuel to these fires. Break off the terrible, heavy yoke that the liar put on your neck when you foolishly recited the Shahadah and you might see the truth. You Muslims are the terrorists! Not Israel! Go to any Arab border with Israel. The military presence on the Arab sides is practically non-existent. However, on the Israeli side, it is always HEAVILY guarded. Ask yourself why!

[constantworker]

I hope these refutations are effective.

[NappyHeadedHorse]

It feels so hopeless... like major media outlets can make these huge lies and then just get away with it. Media plays such a big political role in western society, so when media can lie about whatever they want to promote their own agendas, it's not only a crime but also something that really needs awareness brought to it so it can change. Godspeed HR!

[deltapunk21]

i love it, plo marxist agitprop refuted! epic fail arafatasses!

[Falestiin2660]

FAT ENGLISH PIG, OFF COURSE HE WAS KILLED YOU FUCKING MORON!!!!! THEY MADE A HUGE FUNERAL, DOESN'T KNOW WHAT HE IS TALKING ABOUT,. the boy was killed by Israelies get it!!!!!

[maprafaso]

BS"D

No Mr. Was KILLED BY PALESTINIANS, AND PLEASE, DON´T USE THOSE STRONG WORDS.

IS NOT CORRECT.

TAHNK YOU.

BLESSINGS FROM G-D

[tito45]

Israel is a terrorist state.

[Mishkafofer]

People ho support Hamas and Iran are terrorist.

People who execute children for Paliwood are terrorist.

[fuckpal]

As a stunch supporter of israel i demand that IDF lunch an investigation as why its advocate general has not brought charges against a buched idf investigation team.

[ThoughtCriminal911]

Israel is aterrorist state and controls their muscle USA by proxy. Since at least year 700 the country has belonged to non-jews and thats a FACT.

[williamkendrick]

your facts sound just like every other facist. we really should kill you. its idiots like YOU that make our world a horrid pool if inaccurance and bias. go kill yourself please, WE THINK UGLY THOUGHTS OF FOLKS LIKE YOU, so do us a favor and just commit suicide. you dont belong alive.

[TakeAPen]

Interesting to watch this video again now after the VERDICT on May 21 that Karsenty is not guilty of libel when calls France 2's movie a 'total fake' 'fully staged'

[yaelascend]

This video hasn't been seen much in comparison to the initial version presented by news outlets across the world. It makes me extremely sad that French media would have knowingly lied and allowed this staged event to be presented as factual news. What has become of the profession of journalism? It seems to exist only to tell us what to think and who to hate. This you-tube video will never be able to undue the damage that was done and the number of lives lost,over a hateful lie.

[NoamTube]

ratings to them are more important than the truth. Besides, if they called out the muslims on staging this, you know as well as I do how many riots there would be around the world from them. This footage would have been better off destroyed.

[IranSuks]

i read in september 2000 600 israelies death the palestine are a shyt and liers

[robert7777777]

A report presented to a French court by an independent ballistics expert maintains that the death of Mohammed al-Dura, a Palestinian child seen being shot in the Gaza Strip during the first days of the intifada in September 2000, could not have been the result of Israeli gunfire, corroborating claims that the shocking footage was doctored.

[rezasantorini]

Palestine lies and uses video's. It's their primary source of income. Remember the man who fell off of the funeral bier, got up and then ran to catch up with the "parade" jumped on his bed and they continued. Remember the video where the Jew killed the Mickey Mouse Farfur so the kids would cry. Typical..just Palestinian stupidity and lies.

[happyuk06]

nigaby77

"is a jewish life as valuable as a muslim life my dear child?"

Yes.

[nigaby77]

Indeed!

Now....is a Muslim life as valuable as a jewish life?

I'll be here waiting for your eagerly provided answer...

[habibi99]

Enderlin and France2 are guilty as hell. February 27th is just around the corner. Pallywood is alive and well in Europe.

[migrandin]

Reply to the sad signature Nigaby 77 who, for lack of his own arguments, just stole my words and tried to make them his own:

Oh please say something more original than that - maybe that is your problem really? You are so brainwashed you can't come up with any real arguments all by yourself but are so stuffed with hate propaganda that you can't see anything else. I pity you.

[7beers]

I am as disgusted as anyone by the comments posted here by Arab sympathizers. But I am equally troubled by the fact that many of those loathesome comments have been labelled as spam. We must fight our enemies' arguments by refuting them with evidence, not by silencing their right to speak.

[migrandin]

The fact that Jews are killed under the most atrocious circumstances - an example is the pregnant mother of 4 who was executed together with her children by Palestinian terrorists - is probably something this sad nigaby77 believes is completely justifiable. Why do these murderers never stop terrorising if they want "peace" and country of their own? Well, those who promote war are usually those who profit from it. Think about it.

[nigaby77]

The fact that Muslims are killed under the most atrocious circumstances - having their homes demolished, crops destroyed, and of course murdered in cold-blood for no reason other than they are not jewish - while being under an illegal military occupation for 40 odd years is probably something this sad mirandin believes is completely justifiable. Why do these murderers never stop terrorising if they want "peace" and a country of their own?

[migrandin]

Oh please say something more original than that - maybe that is your problem really? You are so brainwashed you can't come up with any real arguments all by yourself but are so stuffed with hate propaganda that you can't see anything else. I pity you.

[nigaby77]

The jews who later immigrated to the area(zionists) and ethnically cleansed those people(and killed and raped them, razed villages etc etc). This is what we in the civilized world refer to as stealing - taking something from somebody that doesn t belong to you. Those zionists who stole this land had no real claim to this land as they were mainly eastern europeans(for thousands of years). But they were also religous fanatics who believed that the land was promised to them by God.

[nigaby77]

So there you have it, Migradin. The truth about the history you so amusingly seem to think you are only privy too.

Alas you small, stupid creature - I know that the reason you respond with such malicious indignation is because you wish to be able to spread your pathetic propaganda unchallenged

Times have changed - no more will zionists use their being jewish as a weapon to continue with their fascist, racist goals.

You are scum. And no amount of bullshit is going to hide that fact.

[Humeroniep]

Gee, I suppose we should forget that Israel was stolen from them in the first place. I love morons such as yourself, you make it so easy to insult your point of view.

I guess we can also forget Black September when King Hussein of Jordan (the supposed allies of Palestinians) decided to murder them. But please, do go ahead with your charges, its too funny.

[becky222johnson]

When was the land "Palestine?" From Roman Emperor Hadrian in 135 A.D. (Jesus never walked in "Palestine"). Then it was the Byzantine Christians who owned it. You have to go all the way to the 7th century for any Arab/Islamic ownership (conquest) of the land. However, Jewish connection with Israel is historic and documented with archaeological relics galore. Before the British it was the Turks. Then it was land turned over to the league of Nations with the Balfour Declaration. Arab land? When?

[nigaby77]

lol. becky222 - get a life, please.

And then you might consider getting an education of some sort....

[teacherof4s]

If you did your homework you would also have to concede that"The Palestinian territories" is a term The "State of Palestine" used in an attempt by the Palestine Liberation Organization to create a Palestinian state in 1988.

The Palestinian people (or simply Palestinians) are Arabic-speaking people with family origins in Palestine.

Prior to the establishment of Israel in 1948, "Palestinian" referred to all residing in Palestine, regardless of ethnicity ( of which MANY were and ARE Israeli.

[bigjelmapro]

Jews called themselves 'Palestinian' more than any Arabs did prior to 1948. Arabs predominantly recognized themselves with Syrians or Turks. 3/4 of whom call themselves Palestinian Arabs have only resided in 'Palestine' from the end 19th century, beginning 20th century.

Net migration in the 1860's-1880's was negative.

[becky222johnson]

True. Israel also used the term "occupied territories" after the 1967 war because they hoped that when things settled down, the land would eventually be converted into a Palestinian state.They could have incorporated the lands outright, but they didn't. Instead, the Palestinians (Arabs)simply used the term "occupied" and "occupiers" over and over for propaganda purposes. Actually, Israel is NOT occupying any COUNTRY called Palestine nor is Israel a COLONY of any OTHER foreign country.

[bigjelmapro]

Great rebuttal. Its becoming quite tiresome having to deal with people of such little moral stature and intelligence. But hey, it makes you useless terrorist apologists easier to deal with.

Just follow the herd of the cliff simpleton.

[rulllar]

killed for not being Jewish? Nigaby you tool, it's well known the biggest number of cases of "unclear circumstances" are between Beduin units and Palestinians. So your lies and little more than repetition of old worn out propaganda won't hold here..

[tngoatee]

B"H

Yasher koach for producing this news clip, about the trial concerning the raw Al-Dura film footage. It was a great relief to me to have proof, that the alleged incident was a staged event, i.e., a PLO propaganda film.

[tucolex]

Besides, what on earth makes anyone think these "Palestinians" are worthy of a country? What have they done for the world except teach it how to murder innocents and blow themselves up. Why do these folks deserve a country? Poverty, terrorism, corruption, illiteracy . . yes, this is a country we need.

[IrvHand]

Since when does anyone believe that Arab propaganda is true?

[rezasantorini]

We know of this side of Palastinians...have any of you seen the videos (on MEMRI) where the Pals are making these videos...and being photographed for use on Palestinian News. One shows a funeral where the victim falls off the bier, picks himself runs and catches up with the group. Then gets on the bier again and once again is dead.

[tayfam411]

The lip syncing is very bad, did anyone see the original language versions?

[charlie9994]

About time the world learns the TRUTH about this al Durah Crap from some french FROG is similar to and about what one should expect from someone like many other famous French Quislings of WWII.

[charlie9994]

This al Durah Crap from some FROG is similar to and about what one should expect from someone like other famous French Quislings of WWII.

[Israelbeach]

Israel proves in a French court that Palestinian terrorists are good at blowing themselves up and bullshitting to the world with staged film! No different than when Palestinians stage funerals, falling off from coffins and walking away. Rather than attacking Israel, Palestinians should be working for peace and a state of their own. The Palestinians are destroying themselves. Their is no Apartheid in Israel when there are Arab members of Knesset. Work for peace - stop terrorism!

[Ruby1gem]

I remember this incident of the boy with his father in a shoot out and the boy was supposedly killed as the Israelis were blamed. This was broadcasted on all the news media but unfortunately, there is no mentioned of this trial showing the raw footage as evidence of a staged act. It is only right that all the news channels do an update of this trial and hopefully the Israelis would be exonerated of this bogus act by the court.

[HateNeverCeasesHate]

I don't trust groups like this. Honest reporting? Its just a pro-Israel site.  The site's agenda is clear, to support Israel. If you are looking for an unbiased perspective, you should probably look elsewhere.

[Snauhi]

It can be pro-Israeli site.. But almost every european media is pro palestinian... And do you disagree with what those people say? Are they lying?

[HateNeverCeasesHate]

Actually, you just stated the websites claimed mission statement. The media at large is unfair against Israel, and they want to better represent the situation, thus their pro-Israel stance is just the truth/honest.

The problem is that most white power / anti-semitic websites say the same thing. Look at cpotato2004 's channel. He says that the media is pro jewish, and it is his job to balance that out, which he does by blaming all the world's problems on the mysterious zionists.

[HateNeverCeasesHate]

As for whether or not they are lying, I have no idea. I just have no idea. To be honest, I don't know the event in question.

I would like to know, but not from a website who's stated purpose is to support one side of the debate, either Palestine or Israel. I want the unbiased perspective, if at all possible.

[charlie9994]

yes they are all liars

[mindbodydr]

This France II video will go down in history alongside the blood libel against Jews in the Middle Ages, alongside the lynchings of Blacks in the South, alongside the propaganda of the Soviet Union as one of the great LIES in history.

[cachupin1]

Get a decent job Mossad operatives polluting this page. Make a decent buck! You are in every website trying to poison the goodness of the human race with your bloody crimes. Get a life piece of zionist garbage! Totalitarian Israeli Apartheid won't last forever! Remember Aryan South Africa? It's gone stupids! wake up and stop genocidal runarounds phony Jews. I hope the real Jews wake up and kick your ass forever from the Holy Land and peace and democracy in a multicultural country like USA.

[Snauhi]

Who are the real Jews? You know them?

Israel apartheid? Prove it.

And what kind of crimes are you talking about?

Present facts or STFU

[AussieJTFer]

lol because Mossad operatives have nothing better to do than to scour youtube for the comments of retarded fuckwits.

[nigaby77]

Or to erase posts like mine that said "Pallywood is fully justified" - on the grounds that Israel regularly murders camera crews, confiscates video recordings of S.S...er I mean, IDF atrocities that happen everday - shooting unarmed Palestinian children etc.

Keep at it boys - it makes no difference. The world can see what a Jewish state is all about = stealing lying and killing.

And that's all.

[Decimated3]

Israel kills unarmed children everyday? Please show me some sources that show this. And all your other claims. Send them to me. Or the world will see what a nigaby77 is all about = A nutjob anti Semite who actually believes he is smart. And that's all.

[nigaby77]

Yes I am smart. But that has nothing to with being able to see that Israel an immoral, racist and fascist state - and that's it's supporters are even more so.

What's particuarly hilarious is how they think they can bullshit people into believing their propaganda.

I don't need to send anything to you - the world already knows those facts - they are easily attainable from humans rights groups of all sorts (particularly Israeli).

[nigaby77]

Actually there is an excellent article about a study done by a group of Israeli pychologists who interviewed IDF members and the stories they tell are horrific - shooting unarmed civilians out of boredom, beating women to death and laughting about it - really telling stuff.

I'll see if I can find it for you.

But I think you'd have trouble reading judging from how incredibly stupid you are.

[Decimated3]

You won't find it for me cause it doesn't exist. Bullshitting people into believing propaganda?? Why don't you watch Pallywood. Whether you think it's justified or not it proves how hypocritical that statement was cause Pallywood goes to extreme lengths to gain sympathy and idiots like you believe it. Not cause you're logical, but cause you're anti Semitic and it's easier for an anti Semite to believe something that's anti Israel, no matter how farfetched it might seem

[nigaby77]

Answer these questions and I'll be bothered to post the source of my claims of the Israeli study.

Do IDF troops intentionally target Palestinian civilians?

Is Haart'z a credible source?

[Decimated3]

And you think that because i ask you for your source i'm 'incredibly stupid'? Well i'm very sorry, but you see in university, we're forced to give sources for contentious statements or the comment becomes invalid to the marker. If you went to university maybe you'd know that as well

[nigaby77]

I've long since graducated tiger from university - MBA Sociology.

And yes - you are, unfortunately, incredibly \

stuipd which is a sad reflection upon which ever school you disgrace by attending.

You don't need a source from me because you can find it yourself, Mr.Univeristy.

If you are interested in the truth than you SHOULD know how to do proper research, and how to distinguish poor from goods sources.

[thehebrewhoya]

graducated?

[ninyostorm]

Damn Arab media...

[mammonmovies]

This video, once again, shows how anti-Israel the media is.

[Snauhi]

You are quoting B'tselem.. That's great.. And how many of those children were combatants? There is a video just above you showing a 14 years old suicide bomber.. But if he gets killed then he will be just added to the statistics to make Israel look bad.. If you take statistics from this year and look at them you will see that dead militants compose a 90% of the total death toll.

Again if you are trying to prove that Israel indescriminatly kills Palestinian children then you failed.

[mammonmovies]

What were these "children" doing at the time they died??? They wern't suicide bombers by any chance??? We ALL know that Israel dosen't intentionally kill innocent civilians. Now can we say that about the Palestininians !!!! Face the facts, the Palestinians have ZERO respect for human life, even their own, so if you've got nothing sensible to say, don't say anything....

[Crazylalalalala]

The blame is on Palestinian terrorist not all Palestinians(i hope) to say that all Palestinians are barbarians as you are implying only serves to increase tensions and is counter productive. They are people and all people are the same.

[miri53]

arabs killed a boy and we all know that! they are dont like the real truth as usual

[narmsanity]

how the hell do you know that? you dont

[cachupin1]

These paid agents of Israeli Apartheid, Mossad agents of course, want to blind the sun with one finger. The whole world watched the open Israeli crimes in Lebanon, The whole world watched the Israeli crimes Gaza. So, killing one child and his father, was no brainer for Israel. Keep the Killing genocidal Israelis!

[Snauhi]

Oh yeah... Mossad at it again...

You just want to watch some videos of the event and give us insightful comments.. Because now you are a fanatical lunatic.. Israeli crimes here and crimes there... Get out of your shell, things are not black and white.. If civilians died in Lebanon then its mostly by mistake, if Israel ever wanted indescriminatly kill civilians then there would be more then 1000 dead.

Btw you should instead see what Lebanese army did you Palestinians not so many moths ago.

[RudiGee]

That child & his father were not dead when that staged photo was taken. You are so blinded by bigotry & hate that you can't tell the difference between the truth & lies fed to you by your leaders who are indifferent to your pain & suffering. They do not live in poverty or in harms way. They send you & your children out to die for them. But what do you care? You live in the USA, out of danger. BTW the only crime Israel committed in Gaza was giving it back to the savages.

[narmsanity]

wow, you should take your own advice about bigotry and hate.

[Lgevirtz]

This once again shows how the Arab liars manipulate the media and totally tarnish the truth. They can never again be believed about anything.

[nigaby77]

Know what the real kicker is?

Apart from the thousands of Palestinians murdered in cold-blood, unarmed - the fact that Israel regularly bars western camera crews(murdering their crew members like the BBC cameramen sniped dead), regularly confiscates video tapes showing all manner of atrocities committed by the S.S..err I mean the IDF.

All of which makes the Palestinian 'faked' murder(if it was, which hasn't been conclusively proven) more than appropriate. "Pallywood" is fully justified.

[nigaby77]

check out the video on the CBC of the footage obtained by a brave Israeli television crew that showed extremely damaging footage than was never supposed to be shown(you know the one where the young IDF punk asks what good clean hebrew boy is doing amongst the human trash so to speak).

[nigaby77]

Please, if you get a chance check it out. And then come back here a cry about Al-durah.

Or embarress yourself and your people more by calling people who are fed up with lies,

thievery, and murder - jew haters.

We all know who the haters are....

[tucolex]

If you knew your history, you would know that there's no such thing as a "Palestinian" nation, and the people who Yasser Arafat convinced the world were "Palestinians" were actually simply a nomadic people with no nationalistic aspirations whatsoever.

[verymeangrinch]

. Consider that the only way to conclude that pallywood is justified means that you accept false information to support ANY cause. You are a bonehead.

[nigaby77]

Oh?

And tell us - what exactly is 'false information'?

Put up or shut up, friend.

[tucolex]

A poll conducted in Palestine prior to 1948 found that most of the Arabs living in the area did not want to be part of an independent nation of Palestine; rather, they wanted to be incorporated into Greater Syria, and most of them considered themselves Syrians.

[tucolex]

Arafat invented Palestinians in order to wage war against the Israelis and in order to prevent Israel from ever becoming war-free and stable. Arafat himself couldn't have cared less about the so-called Palestinians he invented, preferring instead to siphon off international aid to his French bank accounts and houses. The so-called "Palestinian cause" is a myth foisted on the world by a corrupt, anti-Semitic opportunist and swallowed by an all too gullible world.

[tucolex]

So when I see these Arabs trying to kill Jews out of anti-Semitism and because they've been brainwashed into thinking that Palestine is "their land," I feel sorry for them. But if you're dumb enough to throw rocks and molotovs and lob rockets at the Israelis, then you deserve to die. Nuff said.

[Cook167]

If France 2 is a credible news company, why are they refusing to release the full video? What are they hiding? We must demand that France 2 release the full 27 minutes so we can learn the truth.

[obyx132]

Why did i always know Enderlin was a liar

[fcint690]

Al Dura was used as a terrorist reason for the kidnapping and beheading of Daniel Pearl. Depending on the judgement of the court, can there be any legal consequences against T V 2 and/or Enderlin?

Marco

[Snauhi]

Its impossible change what Arabs think.. Its impossible.. They will still believe that Israeli soldiers shot them and the will say that the court case was staged by Zionist Sarkozy.

[johni812]

Very interesting comment, i.e. that the footage reveals clearly that the Al-Dura incident was staged. The best thing that could happen now is for this footage to be posted on YouTube to show the world that a hoax was used to support the uprising which followed.

[Atilla89]

The only problem, how many people will actually care? Although I agree, its better then doing nothing.

[RakAni]

Very disturbing, but why are we not suprised? This has been going on for decades, and finally someone with balls has the courage to contest these damaging lies.

[7beers]

I think you mean "why are we surprised".

[nigaby77]

"Think about it" - indeed. Hopefully the irony sinks in - not likely, though. But the Palestians are resisting a miilitary occupation - that is an undisputable fact. They were robbed of their land, ethnically cleansed and continue to fight a slow, methodical genocide by Zionist supremists.

That's what you're supporting. The same ideologies that almost destroyed all of European jewry.

|"Never again" my ass.



Is a jewish life as valuable as a muslim life my dear child?

[migrandin]

No Nigaby, is was never "their" land - it was a British mandate - do you know the difference? And they gave away 80% of it and made it into what is today know as Jordan. So they stole it too? And "ethnically cleansed"? Please! They were 700 000 then. They are over 4 million of them today - you call that ethnical cleansing. You know nothing. So kindly shut up, do your homework & stop pestering those who actually know what they are talking about.

[nigaby77]

Yes it was mandated by the British - who happened to own alot of lands they didn't inhabit - it was called the British empire.

And it was called Palestine. And there were there a majority of Arabic people who rightfully called it their land.

[becky222johnson]

Arabs are from Arabia. Jews are from Judea. While its true that many Arabs lived in British Mandate Palestine, the Jews have a much longer connection with the land, actually built a nation twice, something the Arabs were never able to do. Jews rightfully call Israel their land for 4 reasons:

1. Zionist immigration and land purchases

2. UN resolution 181

3. "sweat" equity of nation-building

4. religious passages in both the Torah and the Koran giving the land to the Jews

[OrgasmicJihad]

No they were not robbed of their land. Most Palestinians are not from that region of the Middle East. PalestineTM is a platform designed to rid the middle east of Jews and attack global world Jewry. The arab and muslim world needs to accept that the PalestineTM fallacy has failed and that they are responsible for the living conditions of these arabs.

[Snauhi]

I am so not suprised... Damn Arab media...

[robocopnz]

Filthly lying arab sympathizing media.

[portillonyc]

Shame on Channel 2! It's all palliwood!!!

[buyskyhigh]

So Channel 2 France hid the raw footage for the last 7 years, successfully prosecuted Philippe Karsenty for telling lies even though it seems clear now that he had been telling the truth, and still has not produced all of the raw footage. What happens next? Are there any reliable online sources that can explain the French legal process and what consequences Channel 2 France may now be facing?

[jaakobou]

Enderlin and france 2 allowed themselves, like so many other journalists to be enthusiastically led astray by "jenin massacre syndrome" palestinian "eye-witness" reports and "reporters", in this case talal abu rahmah who claimed the israelis were pinning the boy and father down with shots for 45 minutes ... apparently, they've managed to hide the lack of evidence until now.

[staronova]

Your video response is year-old rescue of the 14-year old Arab kid, about the same age as Al Dura, sent on a homicide bombing mission but intercepted at the Shechem checkpoint. The child abuse of using a kid merely as an expendible weapons delivery system is far more evil than using child actors in Pallywood productions.

Muslims still honor Al Dura; his bogus, staged killing justifies jihadi murder & mayhem. The dhimmi West is silent when the uncivilized sacrifice children in a firey furnace.

[LoisJoy]

Shame on Channel 2. But is anyone really surprised? The Big Lie...I wonder what will happen in February.

They seem to have a French Rosemary Woods working for them.