Messer Techniques from Talhoffer

[8mvp125]

Very nice. By practice and study we keep the European Art alive.

[mojothemigo]

COOL! Question though, I noticed the drawings use strait blades except for the clipped and bellied last 2-3 inches of the sword. They look almost entirely like a normal single handed broadsword except for single edge and again, the tip. Did people back then use Messers (and falchions) With more belly at the end like you were using?

[ChishioAme]

@mojothemigo Those are just Talhoffer's illustration of them. If you watch MEMAG's "Four Sources on Messer Combat" that have plays from Hans Talhoffer, Paulus Kal, Codex Wallerstein, and Sigmund Emring, you can see a variety in the illustrations. A langes messer is a long knife, so there'll be just as much variation as their is in smaller knives.

[Artemis923]

Where can I find this stuff?!

[ChishioAme]

You guys always have the best music.

[Spartan043]

Oh shit, now that song is stuck in my head.

OH, OH, TOTUS FLOREO

[bearminator90]

Nice video and music, really apreciated

[7uos]

ORCS KILLING MY FAMILY PLEASE, I NEED MONEY FOR SWORD LESSONS.

[karikaalacholan]

cont- Play 4 can be seen as a variation or a counter to the counter for play 1 where you produce the overhead counter and the other guy attempts to grasp/cover your weapon with his hands, immediately you pull back the sword thereby avoiding/hurting his hand and successfully thrust at him.Remember, the unarmed hand is held like spring.By the way, please try it and show the video.

[karikaalacholan]

I like to give some secrets to play number one.Please try it.The hand behind is held like a spring for a good reason. Immediately after you parry the overhead strike just uncoil it and lock his sword arm.Immediately after you parry the other guy should release his unarmed arm like a spring and try to grasp your sword before you begin to strike.in this way, he will safely cover the strike with his arm and grasp it with his hand. a full swing blow is not possible to parry with the hand alone.

[Gent1911]

Am in process of purchasing a Messer from Cold Steel, I really enjoyed the video, I am wondering though what effect would be if engaging a left handed opponent? I am a lefty I have practiced movement with Katana & Viking sword & it often confuses my friend who is training me (he is by far the better swordsman BUT I out shoot him with the 1911 LOL).

[Zyamaman]

I really don't think there's any need to describe what to do with your opponent once you cut his sword hand off...

[xtcarnage15586]

WHat do you do if I attack you from the side?

[ChishioAme]

@xtcarnage15586 I fart in your general direction, that's what I'd do.

[xtcarnage15586]

@ChishioAme no but seriously? All these techniques are defence for if someone does a chopping attack. But there are many other forms of attack. THerefore, more videos are required!!

[ChishioAme]

@xtcarnage15586 These show FOUR plays from Talhoffer's works; not all there is. There's Leckuchner, Lichtenaur, Emring, Kal, and those are just the ones MEMAG has done. That said, the slash from above and the thrust were the most common attacks done with the messer because they're simple attacks and the messer was mostly a peasant's weapon. Peasant's weren't usually very well trained.

[xtcarnage15586]

@ChishioAme yeah but they need to do more videos explaining more forms of fighting with the Messer. It is unfair for them to taunt us with a little bit, and leave us hanging

[ChishioAme]

Very, very nice. I was especially interested to notice that in Plays 1 & 4, there were movements reminiscent of Chinese swordsmanship, particularly that of the dao. The initial parry and grapple where you take control of your opponent's arm and then slash them with your sword is also present in CSA. Gives very much credence to the fact that you can only use a sword effectively in so many ways.

[xtcarnage15586]

amazing. This > Katana

[tallswede80]

This sounds like carmina burana.

[thewildchimp]

Fine video, though elbow push in play two was not performed correctly.

[GecSword]

What happens to the momentum of the falling hand? It's still carrying a sword, and still aimed at the head - at the very LEAST this blow would cause some major lacerations, although it's unlikely to be lethal.

Although feasible, I always have a problem with catching the opponents strong cut with my blade on their wrist for this very reason. Sure, they'd lose the hand, but that blade was traveling mighty fast...Not worth the trade IMHO.

[ChishioAme]

@GecSword Actually, given the force with which you would make the cut, it's more likely that their severed hand would be sent backwards towards them. Look at many of the cutting videos done by relative amateurs here on Youtube; notice how the severed portion of whatever they cut (be it water bottle or tatami) often goes flying in the same direction they cut. The hand would be no different, so it'd actually be more likely to cut its owner than you.

[GecSword]

@ChishioAme

It really depends on a lot of variables. I certainly admit that it's possible for your scenario to happen, but it would require a strong cut (many fechtbucher use lighter cuts than one would expect, but there are plenty of examples where strong cuts are favored) as well as the opponent not having hit full momentum with their cut.

That said there is a lot of leeway here - frankly my point about the hand was just an example.

[ChishioAme]

@GecSword True enough, true enough. Of course, since the messer was often used by peasant soldiers, they would at least be lightly armored and somewhat protected from the glancing blow a falling sword like that would offer. Then again, there are just too many variables and anything's possible, particularly in battle.

[kokomanation]

i prefer classical fencing style it is more effective and you can hit the opponent by a greater distance 

[DFameSR14]

the messer kinda looks like a gladius but longer

[DFameSR14]

@DFameSR14 actually it doesnt at all

[xtcarnage15586]

@DFameSR14 Na. Gladius is double edged

[althesmith]

I suspect the "God help them" was because of the nature of the messer- it was basically a large Bowie knife- meant that all combat was very close-range, brutal and injuries to both parties were unavoidable.

[oscarnares]

the song is call: Totus Floreo

[TheMadCat1488]

Whats the music? Its amaizing!!!

[pndrgn88]

Who made your messers? We are trying to study these techniques in Australia, but having trouble sourcing decent messers...

[Cherrypoppins18]

Its funny that he says god help them, but what do you think he meant by that?

[Salisaad]

@Cherrypoppins18 It was standard phrase in Talhoffer's Fechtbücher.

[Cherrypoppins18]

@Salisaad Cool to know, thanks for responding

[pendell2]

Applause! I have no knowledge of this martial art, but I know artistry when I see it.

[cbeigl93]

lol wie die sprache damals war heute würde man dnek es hat ein drittklässler geschrieben^^ schon krass was mit der sprach passiert ist 

[baggejan]

ihr eifersuchtliche englander verpiss aus unser altlandischen exestiren

dien volk hat ja ga keine ahnung dieser realistmus also verpiss und las uns richtigen volker am exestiren Hoch Germaner Hoch

[Yora21]

1:40 That's exactly one of the first two techniques tought in Aikido.

[TryForceTriforce]

"Here they fight

with the Messer.

God help them"

lol I always found that somewhat funny for some reason

[Pawnbroker00]

Also, somewhat inaccurate translations going on there man..

[Pawnbroker00]

Oh what the fuck man, messer means knife. And these are clearly swords.

[gurkfisk89]

@Pawnbroker00 No these are messers, knifes yes but long knifes. A messer is often single-edged and a sword double-edged.

If you thing these knifes looks big, then I want you to look up großes messer and/or kriegmesser.

[Pawnbroker00]

@gurkfisk89 Lol.. noooo, langesmesser, not messer or sword. A lot of people seem to love shortening the name but it is not proper

[trx753124]

i have a question its really important to me. Who is performing this totus floreo. Of all performances this is the best and i cant find this

[Chihab2112]

Bei der letzten Übung hat der Verteidigende nach der Parade sein Messer über dem Anderen. Dann zieht er nach unten um den Stich anzubringen. Wäre es nicht sinnvoller vorn nach unten zu ziehen und so zuerst (also vor dem Stich) noch einen Schnitt zum Gesicht des Gegners anzubringen?

[MEMAG]

Our new Messer video linked to above has a corrected version of all of these plays and many more.

[humungus3]

Really awesome video.

[twatoast]

Brilliant!

[BirkaViking]

Nice video 5/5

Cheers

[ceskakorouhev]

nice work...

[trx753124]

What gruop of musicians is singing this beatifull version of totus floreo? because i dont like other versions this is the best ;)

[carlern55]

love tallhoffer

[carlern55]

this is cool music even i dont understand a bit of wat they are saying... nice vid make more.. i learned alot.=)

[ManicParroT]

Question: Why do they keep one arm behind their backs? Is there some utility to this - keeping it out of the way of a slash?

[quixoteknight]

exactly that... keep it from getting a good gash... of course there are techniques that use the off hand for disarming or grappling but keeping your hand back also prevents others from doing the same to you by grabbing it!

[WaverenEvermore]

There are a few reason but perhaps the biggest is to remove a target from your enemy. Having your opponent lob off your arm because you were waving it about is a bad idea.

[sgtmac46]

Interesting......it's the same as a roof block and and snake disarm from from the Filipino Martial Arts. Universality of practical human movement. This is good stuff.

[combatives]

@sgtmac46

Exactly! These universal motions that are inherent in all combat-weathered systems is what I and the Co-Founders of Integrated Combative Concepts had done through 17 years of research (each of us beforehand having decades of experience); we have sieved through 1,420+ MA systems and have determined the most common and workable Universal Combat Motions ("U-You C-See M-'Em") as they are found in CQC. I love to see others make such connections.

[Desayunobabe]

thanks soo much put put more and i want to do this

[redwyvern8688]

... This is Latin music. Sounds like its from a play.

[swordwind001]

Thank you so much! It makes far more sense seeing it in motion than it does on the page.

[Magicyogi]

man i wd love to know where the music is from too!!!!!!!!!

[swordwind001]

The song is Tempus Est Iocundum from Carmina Burana

[deketeme]

um, does the song have 2 names ? after some searching yesterday I found that the name is totus floreo.

[sonoNEKO]

@swordwind001 that is is, but clearly not Orff's Carmina Burana, just lyrics from the same source

anyone know who wrote this and who's performing it?

[deketeme]

the name of the song is totus floreo

[SailorBarsoom]

Vicious stuff. But then would be, when you're fighting for your life.

[MrPotatoesLatkie]

I like the music. What is it called and, who is performing the song?

[Porfinnr]

@MrPotatoesLatkie it's one of the carmina burana, Totus Floreo... i don't know who perform it, but the best version is the Carl Orff's one

[TheGekkjevel]

@MrPotatoesLatkie It is called "Tempus est iocundum" and is performed by "New london Consort feat Philip Picket" google it and see if you can find any

[TheKingdomofErnor]

@MrPotatoesLatkie The song is called "totus floreo", but I can't find the artist who made it. I like this version more than any other. If you can find this artist, please tell me :3

[Wolfgang186]

Weiß jemand wie das Lied heißt?

[Mandolinplayer15]

Ich hatte angenommen das die sprache um 1400 doch etwas anders wäre. doch das liest sich ganz gut

[MEMAG]

Das ist gut!

[hendrikmanbeer]

@Mandolinplayer15 deutsch ist nicht so verandert hollandisch ist viel geandert undschuldige Sie mein deutsch  aber mein qwerty hat keinem umlaut

[Mandolinplayer15]

@hendrikmanbeer

äähm.. entschuldige aber ich weiß jetzt nicht genau was du meinst. ich hatte doch nix von holländisch gesagt ich hatte mich nur gewundert das ich es so gut lesen konnte.^^

[saintfather]

@Mandolinplayer15 Of course it sounds a bit different. It's not German. It sounds very much like modern Portuguese, actually.

[xxSilencexx88]

Nice Video, but its called Fechtbuch in the singuar form or Fechtbücher in the plural.

But very nice Video you'd shown it very well.

[MEMAG]

Yes, that was a typo.

[TheRealBlueFlame]

@MEMAG I love the vid :) it's an awesome demonstration of the techniques.

by the way, the music is very nice, do u have a link to the track? :)

[NyppoN]

where is the music from? Would love to know :)

[wt333wt]

Well done!

[DreamyEyedChild]

o.k...this was very nice. Thanks for sharing

Abi

[Dyrit]

Nice nice, there is just one mistake..... Swordmans on pictures got short hair , but these guys have long hair ... lol

Cool vid

[str1k3r01]

Nice music choice, that is from Carl Orff's Carmina Burrana, Tempus est Iocundum, right? 

Where can you learn to master the sword?

[kibaloboferoz]

Try the site formaly known as HACA which I think now is called ARMA, they have a section with contacts to people who practice it here in the US and I think the other site is EMMA for european medieval martial arts association...

[str1k3r01]

thx, for the info :)

[kibaloboferoz]

You're welcome :)

[VegaEtereo]

In any place, with the ancient manuals sir. ;)

[sonoNEKO]

@str1k3r01 it's Tempus est Iocundum, but this doesn't sound at all like any recording of Orff I've ever heard

[joenobody13]

great video. that arm-lock is used in greco-roman wrestling and it's called the whizzer. i think it's amazing to see the way the fighting arts have evolved through the centuries.

[Ravensteel18]

its a great vid !!!

[TalingBards1]

totus floréo!!

[van1980]

Well done, guys. You blended the manuscript into your skit very well. Fluid.

[RodCornholio]

I noticed they didn't demonstrate actually cutting off someone's hand. Oh well.

[000majorwinters000]

LOL!

[MEMAG]

Next time...

[HumbleHumbert123]

What's up with the two handed cold steel "grosse messer"? Is that actually a kriegsmesser?

[poopwadmcgee]

flippin hxc

awesome moves right there.

i love martial arts :D

[mitsotribal]

hahaha funny song,is it medieval? Is it German,the old Deutsch don't seem alike wtih todays Deutsch if it is German...

[NightIllidan]

i think its latin

[blackmorewolf]

Thank you for your videos, I have used your videos to learn to improve my skill, I hope you make more, regards from chile and sorry if my english is not okay XD

[spinhook888]

That's pretty hardcore.

[mightycowhero]

here they fight with the messer. god help them.

LOL.

[mitsotribal]

Yes,hahaha...the way it is displayed it's like Messer is a person...When I first saw it I asked myself "Who the fuck is the Messer???"

[mightycowhero]

germany wasn't fucking around back then.

[AnGobh]

@mightycowhero "may God remember them (their faces)" Since they're going to be hacked up/hack themselves up to bits. XP

[axewulf]

THANK YOU! Very convincing interpretations bring the manual alive. The messer being a most dangerous weapon. The severed hand still holding the sword is a very disturbing image hence I think any student would want to get the moves down.

[MEMAG]

We've actually been re-thing that particular technique, and we hope to share our new ideas soon. Thanks for watching!

[eddiedaskull]

very well done.these guys do their reseach very well

[GarethofOrkney]

Very nice video!

[cqc75]

great music what is it called.

[Azrl26]

Schelmish has a version of that song named "Tempus est lucundum"

[Azrl26]

edit "iucundum" not "lucundum"

[gregvs3]

Very interesting gentleman. You seem both committed and knowledgable. Thanks for sharing.

[gregvs3]

BTW what is the background music?

[deanstav]

Very good, its one thing reading the book and another seeing it done. Cheers, great work!!

[trolltrumman]

...you can only block a sword with your arm ONCE.

[Schwertgosch]

True, but where do they block a strike with the arm? Take a closer look and you'll see it's a cover against a downward strike with the Messer over the left arm with which you'll close in a grapple. No "blocking with arms". Good work guys! Are you trying out Johannes Lecküchner as well? That's the No.1 Messer source!

[trolltrumman]

It was a JOKE ;) sorry I forgot the smiley there at the end.

[JohnRaptor]

Good video. Instructive and fun to watch.

[argonald]

great vid,messer techniques are awesome,i just discovered em today!!lol

as the longsword techiques are rather more famous...

the music is awesome too!!what is the name of the song?or the band?

thanks for sharing!

keep it up!!

[MEMAG]

Thanks for watching! The song is called "Carmina Burana (13th c. Bavarian Manuscript) - Tempus est iocundum" from "Sinners and Saints: The Ultimate Medieval and Renaissance Music Collection".

[shinzu4001]

Some of these techniques are similar at the point of contact with escrima/arnis/kali mechanics. Very interesting connection between SE Asian and European ideas.

[MattABryant]

I dig the format.

[tsafa1]

Very well done.

[MEMAG]

Thank you!

[Hugonis]

Fantastic. This is a great way to show the techniques; these are some of my favorite plates in Talhoffer (as they are remarkably applicable to single-hand sword and shield use) and you gentlemen have done a beautiful job of showing the techniques and relating them to the source material in a way which leaves little room for argument about the validity of these interpretations. Please keep up the good work.

[MEMAG]

Thank you very much! We have one minor correction to the second play that we will film shortly. Thanks again!

[Kortoso]

Very nice work.

[MEMAG]

Thank you very much!

[DerKaptain]

great work

[MEMAG]

Thank you!

[DerKaptain]

the only thing that isn't so good, is the first part where (maybe it seemed so because of the speed) it looks like you use the edge and not the flat of the messer to parry.

[MEMAG]

It must be the speed, because we use the flat to parry with that particular technique. Take care!

[ranpleasant]

Very nice. Most refreshing to see a hanging parry performed with the flat of the blade rather than with the edge! Well done.

[MEMAG]

Thanks! Although I believe displacements can be performed with either the edge or flat depending in the situation, I definitely believe that the flat is used here. Take care!

[compupack]

"this is a knife" lol. Best vid yet memag.

Keep them comming.

[MEMAG]

Haha, thank you very much! More are on the way shortly!

[MarkHolgate]

"here they fight with messer. god help them" LOL today that would be "fighting with huge long knives has been known to shorten your life expectancy." great work again guys.

[MEMAG]

Ha, I think you are right! Thank you!

[Djemps]

STILL my favorite weapon! Thanks for posting a quiality vid about the little known art of Messer combat.

[MEMAG]

Haha, thanks for the compliment(s)!