"The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; petty, unjust, unforgiving, control freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty, ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevent bully." = Asshole Of The Ages
When you cast aside silly religious beliefs, and read the bible in the same way you would read Homer's Iliad (or any other collection of myths mixed with real history) you can appreciate it for what it is. There probably was a great plague in King David's time, and the ancient Israelites struggled to find a reason why God would punish them. There are many events in the bible that we would consider natural disasters today, but the Jews thought God was punishing them for some perceived sin.
The second decision that he could have taken doesn't seem to say if it would affect his land or not, only that he would be pursued by his enemies for 3 months. In which case he could have possibly died for his peoples sake. He instead chose 3 days of disease and 70,000 people died for his sake. Surely someone intelligent enough to create the universe and all life has a reason for all that he does. Christianity is built around faith and God works in mysterious ways.
But the people who believe in this crap would do some of the most incredible mental juggling and mental backflips attempting to harmonize it away. No rationalization would be too far fetched for them. To me is a matter of amazement that any intelligent individual would not see this conundrum for what it is!
the holy ghost came to me last night, (or maybe it was the tooth fairy, it was dark i couldn't tell for sure.) anyway he said in a deep echoing voice. "go out and spread the word of BOB." BOB i said, he said "yes, spread the word of BOB." so i said "i'm ready, i'm ready." he said "that's perfect." then he disappeared back into the closet.. oh man, that;s one crazy ghost.
I did watch the whole video, the he is not capitalized, so it is not speaking of God. THe scripture in chronicles where it says that Satan told him to do it is the exact same. he=Satan
@HeavenBound2323 - God, when referring to him through the "he" or "him" pronouns, isn't always capitalized in the KJV. See in this video, specifically 24:14: "And David said unto Gad, I am in a great strait: let us fall now into the hand of the LORD; for his mercies are great: and let me not fall into the hand of man."
"his" mercies ... lower case. Referring to God.
See also 1 Kings 22:19, Ezekiel 1:27, Exodus 20:20 to name just a VERY few.
This is because Hebrew doesn't have capital letters.
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@43alley Obviously God wouldn't tell him to do a census and then punish him for doing it. That makes no sense. But if the verse in Chronicles tells us that it was Satan then that makes sense. David was being proud, he wanted to show how well israel had grown since he had been king. He took credit for something that God did and God punished him for it.
@HeavenBound2323 - Then address the rest of the end-note. Do you feel God's punishment was just? Do you think the 70,000 men deserved to die because David held a census?
the holy ghost came to me last night, (or maybe it was the tooth fairy, it was dark i couldn't tell for sure.) anyway he said in a deep echoing voice.
"go out and spread the word of BOB." BOB i said, he said "yes, spread the word of BOB." so i said "i'm ready, i'm ready." he said "that's perfect." then he disappeared back into the closet.. oh man, that;s one crazy ghost.
@HeavenBound2323 (Deuteronomy 24:16) - "Fathers shall not be put to death for their sons, nor shall sons be put to death for their fathers; everyone shall be put to death for his own sin."
@TheRedLuigi Well if you read it, it says that A father WONT die for the sins of his sons and that everyone will die for their OWN sins. Not that people die for other peoples sins
@TheRedLuigi How do you know that the people that died were innocent? The Israelites weren't exactly obedient. Just because God used david's sin to excercise his wrath on the wicked israelites doesn't mean he did it strictly because of David's sin. It was all to teach David a lesson. Plus he was their king. In Deuteronomy the isrealites had God for their king. I dont know where people who are less than a flea think they have the authority to question Almighty GOD
@HeavenBound2323 I can question teh concept of"god"becasue according to teh bible that god gave me a brain to use.And if i see somethign that contradics eachother i will use it liek many otehr people before me and after me too. I simply dont just trust an ancient bronze age book ,written hundrets of years after the so called creation and rewritten countless times.It is basically pure chanc in what religion you are born,so what makes YOUR religion right?
@HeavenBound2323 are you saying that 70,000 that died their wasn't at least one innocent person? do you not feel bad for that ONE PERSON WHO DIED BECAUSE it wasn't their fault?? we have more than just the authority to question mythical creatures it's the people's moral consensus of duty to do so..
@TheRedLuigi I was not born into this religion. There is no point to try to convince you because you already don't believe. There is no contradiction here. You have a law that was in effect for a certain time, and after that time was over it was no longer in effect. If you read the bible with the goal to make it not make sense then it won't make sense. I will pray for you every night. If you people don't believe in God why do you even watch these videos.
@HeavenBound2323 I think you mean "if you read the bible hoping for it to make sense, it will". The opposite isn't true because we Atheists who read the bible with no hopes of it "not making sense" end up finding that it either 1) does not make sense, 2) is extremely brutal and unjust in parts or 3) contradicts itself many many times over.
The main reason I watch these videos myself is because I find religion its brainwashed sheep hilarious (yet horribly worrying for society)
@BLaZeDRas I will not throw pearls to swine. One day you will die and have to stand before the God you mock. And then you will expect him to let you into heaven, and then call him brutal for not letting you in.
@TheRedLuigi It's because something inside of you is screaming that there is a God and for you to give up all your sin and come to him. But you can't let go of your sin so you come watch these videos to supress the screaming. To convince yourself that there is no God so you can sleep at night. Nobody has the problem with being a Christian. A true christian that the bible describes. They just don't want to give up anythng.
@HeavenBound2323 Nope. I watch these videos to see both side of teh coin. And i would liek to ask my question again. What makes to think/know that christianity is teh right religion and teh other abrahamic religions are false? If you answer with somethign like "i know it in my heart", then sry, there are millions of jews and muslims who think exactly teh same way you do.
@HeavenBound2323 The "he" was not capitalized?!?! seriously? You know the bible is a translation from multiple iterations of translations from several dead languages? Seriously?
Chronicles 21:1 Tells us how Satan told him to do the census. When he say's "HE" it is talking about Satan and Satan tells him to do the Census. You gotta read the whole thing, it's not going to make sense if you do it like this, thats why you are confused
@43alley Wow...it seems Heavenbound agrees with and supports this supposed deity's punishment of 70k for the sin of one man instead of punishing the one who committed the sin in the first place. Playing favorites...you see this weird sense of mercy and justice throughout the bible.
@HeavenBound2323 You can interpretate the Bible in many ways, that makes it possible to make God always look like the good guy. Then again, if God is omnipotent and so full of love, why does he allow the devil to play his game.It is like this metaphor: you have little children, you love them very much, but you put them in the room together with a vicious dog. You have the power to keep the dog away and the children safe, but for a sick reason you refuse to, just to see how much they can beg you
Whats wrong with a census? A cencus was commanded in Numbers to prepare an army for conquering the promised land. A census wasnt needed at the time because they were at peace. Davids sin was pride along with the nations as well. David put his sense of power, faith, his ambition in counting the size and strength of his army instead of trusting God to deliver him regardless of their number.
@43alley - Thank you again my friend. It's good to have a civil discussion on here for once. It is indeed baffling - and the strangeness doesn't stop there. For David's transgression, God punishes the Israelites rather than David. In fact one of the themes of the Old Testament appears to be that God is fairly capricious.
@triskaidekaphobe13 - What should make it even more troubling for a believer is that God not only punishes, but basically says, "Pick one of these three terrible ways I will punish your people" as though he is playing a game.
And when David leaves it up to God, God picks an extremely brutal option of sending a horrific disease that would kill 70,000 over the course of three days.
David should have chosen his army being chased, because he could at least fight his way out of that.
@43alley - Well thank you for your help, but what was God's reasoning for asking David to count the people in the first place, knowing that David would obey and be (apparently) guilty of sin - although this is troubling, since it seems to be a case of 'if God tells you to do it, it's not a sin. Certainly God doesn't punish Abraham for his willingness to murder his own son at God's behest - and this seems way milder than that.
@triskaidekaphobe13 - That's the problem. The Chronicles version says that Satan convinced David to do it. This version says it was God. So we either have an error (either in the telling or during a later transcription).
Nevertheless, we now have a contradiction.
And if it IS a contradiction, and both versions are claimed to be true, then we have a troubling situation like you mention. Why would God punish for doing what God told David to do in the first place?
I'm really as to the nature of David's sin in II Samuel - if any Christian or Jewish person could enlighten me as to why it was sinful to conduct a census (which seems quite harmless) and why God punished David (or rather the Israelites - David himself got off quite lightly) for doing what he'd just been told to do, that'd be great.
@triskaidekaphobe13 - I'm neither Christian nor Jewish, but the explanation that I have heard was that it was considered a sin because you were counting what belonged to someone else. In that time, only those who owned something could count it.
I didn't say it was a great explanation, but it's the best I've been give so far.
Ah yes, the justice of god is great, for the "sin" of David, 70,000 others get to die, yet David is spared. Hooray for god, yaaaa! Even the biggest dicks on YT are not as evil as this god.
when i was young a friend of mines father gave us beer. he later beat the shit out of his son for being drunk. i didnt understand it then, but the bible has cleared it up for me... godlike.
Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the Chronicles version also the first time that Satan enters into the OT? Interestingly, after the Babylonian captivity and their exposure to Zoroastrianism?
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God is perfect in all he does yes even judgement, if a judge just let a rapist go because he was genuinly sorry that would b a bad judge. Sin demands punishment.
He's almighty, all-knowing, yet he creates the setup for the original sin; then blames it on his children (who until then don't know what is good and what is not, what is right and wrong, remember?!!), and PUNISHES THEM FOREVER! He didn't teach them - just gave an order and issued a punishment.
Later, his creation became so bad he had to kill EVERYBODY but Noah! (He himself states that he regret creating people!!!) And did that mass-murder work? No - people kept being wicked!...
@gro He created free will yes but to say hes responsible for people choosing wrongly with that free will is incorrect. And if you"ll read genisis you see that they dont know the DIFFRENCE between good and evil simply because they hadnt ever commited evil. If someones batting a .1000 and had never even had a strike against them, hit the first ball on the first pitch everytime u could say they dont know the diffrence between hitting and not. why would they need to be taught how to get a strike?
@gro But if they finally do get a strike for the umpire to not call a strike a strike, would imply he was a bad ump and God cant be a "bad ump" And again if you'll read it you'll see that all of creation except noah(and 7 others) were nothing but evil all the time. and it depends on what u mean by "work" there are more then 7 righteous people in the world now and the entire world isnt always completly evil. also man still has free will so he still can be evil.
God only knows in advance because to him you have already done it. his knowledge is coming from your free will not his control over you. And about the babies...its called the "age of accountability" (whenever that is)God dosnt hold children that cant reason accountable for their actions. And all men were righteous again until more were born and after some time with their free will became "heathens"
I'm not talking about control; he KNOWS shat I'll do even before I was born! That is to say, I have NO CHOICE! It's been already predestined! And WHO is mighty enough to predestine things??? Riiiight!! ;-)
PS: So, you're saying that in Noah's times babies survived the flood?????
His knowledge is souly completely and uterly dependent on your choices IN free will. He also knows the other choices that u choose between but ended up not doing, your saying he knew them because he predestined them but he actually knew them because he looked in to the future. And you have to be talking about control because thats the only other option other then free will. either u have a choice or u dont if u dont that means ur at least partially being controlled. And they went to heaven.
Please, read my previous post again, then yours, and I'm sure you'll see you're contradicting yourself.
If he KNOWS what'll happen and he KNOWS how I'll end up - and also knows every minute detail of my fate - I have NO CHOICE, but a route!
So either your god is all-knowing and I DO NOT have free will, or he isn't all-knowing and I DO have free will (or he's not and I don't, but that's another topic).
Or he just doesn't exist (we are still looking for a single evidence...!)
Kowledge is not causal. Its true u have no choice but your choices. Him knowing that u will choose this option over that will "in effect" take away ur free will, but in reality it wont because thats what u will u choose, U CHOOSE IT. If he didnt have omniscience and then knew what u would do maybe then u would have no free will. The fact he knows it b4 is irrelivant because he see's the future if he didnt know the future and then still "knew" the same things, yes u would have no choice.
Also, if he's omnipotent, and he is the CREATOR, is there something happening AGAINST his will? If no - sin is HIS fault; if yes - well, he's a BAD creator! Unless he WANTED US to go against his will and perfect wisdom - which means he's plain evil!
Omg ... I don't know whats funnier your comment or 43alley's reply. But in your scenario the judge doesn't kill everyone in the courtroom just for showing up ... that would make about as much sense as killing 70,000 random people because the king counted how many people were in the neighboring cities.
@116Phanatic But God told David to do it and then punished him for it. Wish makes God a prick, making HIM imperfect thusly proving your point invalid.
@MrsCamui God does not cause people to sin, but he allows sinners to reveal the sinfulness of their hearts by their actions. God presented the opportunity to David in order to deal with a disaterous national tendancy, and he wanted this desire to show itself. First Chronicles 21:1 says Satan incited David to do it. Hebrew writers do not always distinguish between primary and secondary causes. So to them if God allowed Satan to tempt David, it was as if God did it.
Then let me ask you this, aren't we supposed to do what GOD asks us without question? If that the case, why punish the man who he asked to complete the task?
Also, what is so sinful about a census? It's a simple head count and last I checked there's no where in the Bible that states that someone should be punished for a head count.
@MrsCamui Yes we are. God asked him to take a census, he did not ask him to take pride in the strength of his armys and put his faith in its power instead of God. Davids sin was pride along with the nations as well. David put his sense of power, faith, his ambition in counting the size and strength of his army instead of trusting God to deliver him regardless of their number.
@MrsCamui Yes we should. If all David had done was take a count because the Lord asked and left it at that it would have been fine. Davids sin was pride along with the nations as well. David put his sense of power, faith, his ambition in counting the size and strength of his army instead of trusting God to deliver him regardless of their number.
you know if you really think about it. light is good,truth is good, knowledge is good,man has free will and that is good who brought these things to man? the bringer of light, lucifer, satan(adversary to a capricoius and evil tyrant) kind of hard to avoid, the good guy in the bible is the devil.
Actually, Lucifer is not Satan. Yahweh, the god of the bible, however is a tyrant. He created us knowing that many of us would be unable to attain his salvation. 30 million people or so dead during the flood of Noah. If a man did this he would sit in the ranks of Pol Pot, Hitler, Stalin, and Mao.
Please, don't talk about free will. There's no free will in Christianity. It's either God's way or eternal torture and damnation. To coin Hitchens, at least the poor bastards in the old testament got to die.
God moved David in the same way that He hardened Pharaoh's heart. Not that He made David sin, but that He took away his hand of restraint of sin in him, and David's own human pride and vanity does the rest. God tempts no man to sin (James 1:13), but neither is He obligated to restrain any man from his own sin.
HAH! LOL. My bad. Abraham, Moses. What's the difference? You probably don't believe either one of them existed anyway.
Seriously, there are several instances in scripture where God tells his servants to lie for the greater good. Look at the midwives lying to the Pharoah that all the children were killed. Later we see Moses doing the same thing. Obedience to God trumps the Ten Commandments.
rofl I've read the book several times, spent the majority of my adult life as a Christian, and I can tell you one thing. you're right about god being unchanging. He didn't exist in Jesus's time, and he still doesn't.
Well, as I have said before, go publish your hard-hitting analysis at your local theological university and turn the religious world on it's head. Do something. BE somebody. You 'da MAN.
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So, how does it feel to spend most of your adult life being wrong about scripture? You had questions and you NEVER got them answered? It seems your faith was not that strong to begin with. Maybe you were always looking for reasons to rebel.
how does it feel? pretty good, to finally be free of the lie.
Oh and actually I was always looking for ways to support my faith. Unfortunately its impossible to debunk every counter Christian argument, without ignoring the arguments to begin with. Your god is a lie
Wrong about scripture? Exactly how many denominatins are out there? Exactly how many interpretations of scripture are out there? A former christian myself, I had felt that the only way to come to an honest conclusion was to read the scripture uninhibited by dogma and along with deep prayer.
The answer I was given...The bible is not perfect and cannot be trusted as a source of information. I feel sorry for the people who continue to do so.
So God himself, the being I had parayed to, made a mistake? Sorry, but no, that is both arrogant and insulting. I've seen many christians demonstrate this attitcude and was one of the things I prayed about. Basically that if another christian comes up with an answer they don't like, it was false without any evidence as to why. Stupidity is what most would call it.
If mankind is so flawed that we can't even get something as perfect as the bible right, than perfect or not the bible is useless to man. The only possible way to know if which is right is to look inside yourself. Does your denomination believe that god resides within the hearts of his believers? If so, where do you think your going to get real info? A dusty tome and the subjective view of men on pulpits can't beat going straight to the source, right?
Trying to think of the best example of a mistake from god, many to choose from, so I'm starting from square one. The creation of man in the first place. If god is all powerful, and there is nothing he cannot do, than he could create a world without ere. Blame it on Man? God is all knowing, therefore he knew the consequences and yet he still blames us? These days this would be considered a sign of an abusive personality.
There are no here are only percieved examples. The creation of man was no mistake. Free will is a bitch. Abusive personality? No, a personality that didn't create us to be robots.
You're entitled to your opinion, but this only convinces me that christians are suffering from the biggest case of stockholm syndrome ever. Only perceived examples? If that were true are legal system would be useless as anything crime could be written off as only perceived that way. God created us to submit or burn, you call that free will. God sounds like a sadist who only gave will so he could torture people. Real nice guy.
Rather than go after free will, it is a more reasonable critique of theism (and especially creationism) to bring up human instincts that interfere with free will AND cause "sinful" behavior. For example, it is very difficult for teenagers to avoid becoming angry with their parents, because they have a natural aversion to being told what to do. As a person, I would be able to exercise free will better if I didn't have anger flare up against my will and cloud my judgment. Instinct contributes.
i c. so God creates commandments he cannot follow, and then call himself the almighty one. Then expects us to follow what he can't...? He should learn to Practice what he preaches then.
Would you follow a leader who can't do wat he says? Come on Deke you know wat I'm trying to say here. Alright so he does not call himself almighty. what do I call him then?How? u ask me how? U know the answers, by not giving people orders that would threaten his commandments. for example, Kill your enemies? Like how David killed Goliath? is that it? I thought he values human life? and what happens to love your enemy?
You are asking several different questions here, and some of them stem from fallacy.
God as a leader is omnipotent. What IS there that He cannot do?
God calls Himself many things, I AM being the simplest.
God gives no orders that threaten His commandments, for Gos does not tempt man to sin. 'Thou salt not kill' should actually read 'Thou shalt not murder.'
How does man eat or perform temple sacrifice in the commandment forbids killing? Justified killing is not murder.
I think deke101 is a good example of how scripture makes ones mind shrink into stupidity and will go through all kinds of contortions to avoid the blatant truth of this fiction and what a vicous mind virus it is.
deke101 if you cant see how retarded you lack of reasoning is then there is no helping you, you deserve all the ridicule you get
If this webpage has a designer, who designed your brain? The fool has said There is no God (Psalm 14:1)
but I say unto you, that every one who shall say to his brother, Thou fool, shall be in danger of the hell of fire. (Mat.5:22) who are my brethren? whosoever shall do the will of my Father in heaven, he is my brother (Mat.12:48-50) but the fool has said there is no God
if only he was real, having done some delving into this the most insidious of fictions I learn that around 0000AD a Roman called Ovidious Nasa may have been the architect of the idea of jesus, which is plagerised from at least 15 other prohpets before hime who also were born of a virgin & risen after 3 days, which is a story interpretation of the zodiac.
amazes me how powerful religion is for controlling people, the weak minded ones anyway, come back deke101 we want to ridicule you some more :)
"Following the word of God correctly would NOT be immoral"
right then I'm off to burn a few goats, rape a few virgins & marry them, buy & then beat some slaves, grow my hair long & keep it short and kill anyone who blasphemes, denies the word of god & anyone who works on a sunday.
deke101 =witless the holy101 = abject retard clinging desperately to his man made fiction
You're a fucking idiot with lamentable analogies riddled with logical penis's !
Right. There is nothing new under the sun. All of these arguments have been hashed over before any of us were born, and yet you guys still hold them up as somehow 'owning' the Bible even when they have been answered.
because the answers are a poor substitue for understanding and the reason it is still current is because of all the suffering it causes.
to be commanded to love and fear and believe in this particular god as opposed to the thousands of others man has created seems ludicrous and immoral.
ok lets outline what you believe for the sake of clarity, do you think the bibble is the literal truth ie man was created in the image of god & the Earth is 6000ish years old etc ?
The answers ARE understanding. Just because YOU don't like them, doesn't mean they are not true. Misunderstanding and the selfishness of men causes suffering.
Following the word of God correctly would NOT be immoral.
According to scripture, man WAS created in His image to rule over the earth and all things in it. According to the creation account and the lineage of Adam, the creation happened around 4400 BC.
Wow, Deke, I never would have pegged you as a young earth creationist. Wow.
I totally disagree with you on a vast majority of theological points, but I still like the fact that you vigorously debate and occasionally score a point or make your case clear (not taking a position that you've done that in this vid or this topic).
But when you say the Earth is approximately 6,000 years old ... wow. That's such a ridiculous thing to say. It's just ... wow. I'm speechless.
I stated that according to scripture, and the genealogy of Adam, the creation happened around 4400 BC.
I did not say I believe the earth is 6000 yrs old.
I happen to believe in the merits of the scientific method. I believe the creation acount and the fall of man story to be greatly metaphorical in nature. I believe these events may have taken place over a much longer period of time.
to wipe the earth clean and start anew doesn't seem like erasing a mistake to you ?
they pretty much do agree on 4.5 billion years irrespective of what you say
"Try an argument of your own"
haha, of course your's are so original, we are obviously giving you to much attention but thank you for your stunningly inadequate answers anyway, should my hair be long or short ?
Negligence is a possible implication of cruelty, but it does not make my answer wrong. lol. Scripture does not imply negligence either, so the point is moot.
God and amputees? Wow. your originality is what is suffering here, not me.
Yes I watched the agonizing video "Truth Behind." The stuffy Brit sets forth several Biblical falacies as usual. Atheists sure do like a guy with a British accent, don't they?
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Past 6 years i am using bible as a toilet paper
Where is your Holy lord Jesus?
Fool Christians... Prove it.
jonesbondchris 11 months ago
Ummm, what? ok I don't read the bible, but why is taking a cencus bad?
supermanlypunch 1 year ago
That HAS to be the weirdest story in the Bible. I couldn't possibly get any weirder.
TheLonelyImmortal 1 year ago
that is one badass-looking angel at the end.
RaustBD 1 year ago
"The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; petty, unjust, unforgiving, control freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty, ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevent bully." = Asshole Of The Ages
The quote is from Dawkins BTW
Charlesincharge42 1 year ago 4
When you cast aside silly religious beliefs, and read the bible in the same way you would read Homer's Iliad (or any other collection of myths mixed with real history) you can appreciate it for what it is. There probably was a great plague in King David's time, and the ancient Israelites struggled to find a reason why God would punish them. There are many events in the bible that we would consider natural disasters today, but the Jews thought God was punishing them for some perceived sin.
Celephaith 1 year ago 14
@Celephaith - Exactly. Nice post.
43alley 1 year ago 4
@Celephaith I totally agree! I actually enjoy reading the bible now with that perspective in mind.
Manifestatheist 1 year ago
christians and jews and muslims need to wake up. Your view of this world is sadly distorted.
Kincajou 1 year ago 2
shouldn't god know how many people he created?
whiskeyntattoos 1 year ago 4
The second decision that he could have taken doesn't seem to say if it would affect his land or not, only that he would be pursued by his enemies for 3 months. In which case he could have possibly died for his peoples sake. He instead chose 3 days of disease and 70,000 people died for his sake. Surely someone intelligent enough to create the universe and all life has a reason for all that he does. Christianity is built around faith and God works in mysterious ways.
Thaeioultra 1 year ago
The moral of the story ?
???
Mathematicks is evil ?
???
God hates statisticians ?
???
Counting is a abomination to the lord ???
???
PerfektBlue 1 year ago
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Wait a minute - How did they know that the pestilence killed 70,000 people? Did David take another census?
zasabiibasaz 1 year ago
No wonder right wingers won't fill out their census forms. God is against it!
TheIntolerantAtheist 1 year ago
But the people who believe in this crap would do some of the most incredible mental juggling and mental backflips attempting to harmonize it away. No rationalization would be too far fetched for them. To me is a matter of amazement that any intelligent individual would not see this conundrum for what it is!
pedrom41 1 year ago 2
Wait a minute - How did they know that the pestilence killed 70,000 people? Did David take another census?
djhalling 1 year ago
the holy ghost came to me last night, (or maybe it was the tooth fairy, it was dark i couldn't tell for sure.) anyway he said in a deep echoing voice. "go out and spread the word of BOB." BOB i said, he said "yes, spread the word of BOB." so i said "i'm ready, i'm ready." he said "that's perfect." then he disappeared back into the closet.. oh man, that;s one crazy ghost.
peace, lardo.
lardo444 1 year ago 3
lol i love ur vids just another reason why i gave up on the whole god thing look at all the ridiculose shit he dose :P
bbadir1995 1 year ago
God and the Devil are so easily mixed up, aren't they? And what's so evil about a census?
viridismonasteriense 1 year ago
I think 70000 men means 70000 people.
DarkAdonisVyers 1 year ago
@DarkAdonisVyers
no, it means MEN. women and slaves were just property and children didn't matter
eidolontyr 1 year ago
@eidolontyr What's the cutoff age for "child"? And don't say the arbitrary, modern number of "18" or "21".
DarkAdonisVyers 1 year ago
@DarkAdonisVyers
usually puberty, in biblical times. 11-13
eidolontyr 1 year ago
@DarkAdonisVyers Since we're dealing with Israelite, then it's 13 or so. After their (and please excuse my spelling) barmitpha.
EziekielNightwind 1 year ago
The Bible is being vague, immoral and contradictory? Who'd a thunk it?
Dallo10 1 year ago
I did watch the whole video, the he is not capitalized, so it is not speaking of God. THe scripture in chronicles where it says that Satan told him to do it is the exact same. he=Satan
HeavenBound2323 1 year ago
@HeavenBound2323 - God, when referring to him through the "he" or "him" pronouns, isn't always capitalized in the KJV. See in this video, specifically 24:14: "And David said unto Gad, I am in a great strait: let us fall now into the hand of the LORD; for his mercies are great: and let me not fall into the hand of man."
"his" mercies ... lower case. Referring to God.
See also 1 Kings 22:19, Ezekiel 1:27, Exodus 20:20 to name just a VERY few.
This is because Hebrew doesn't have capital letters.
43alley 1 year ago 20
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@43alley Obviously God wouldn't tell him to do a census and then punish him for doing it. That makes no sense. But if the verse in Chronicles tells us that it was Satan then that makes sense. David was being proud, he wanted to show how well israel had grown since he had been king. He took credit for something that God did and God punished him for it.
HeavenBound2323 1 year ago
@HeavenBound2323 - Then address the rest of the end-note. Do you feel God's punishment was just? Do you think the 70,000 men deserved to die because David held a census?
43alley 1 year ago 30
@43alley "Then address the rest of the end-note." That's just moving the goalpost 43alley.
Moussyed 1 year ago
@HeavenBound2323
the holy ghost came to me last night, (or maybe it was the tooth fairy, it was dark i couldn't tell for sure.) anyway he said in a deep echoing voice.
"go out and spread the word of BOB." BOB i said, he said "yes, spread the word of BOB." so i said "i'm ready, i'm ready." he said "that's perfect." then he disappeared back into the closet.. oh man, that;s one crazy ghost.
peace, lardo.
lardo444 1 year ago
@HeavenBound2323 Somewhere in teh bibl eit is written that to man has to be punished for teh sin of another one. So? whats your answer to that?
TheRedLuigi 1 year ago
@TheRedLuigi Find me a scripture and i would be happy to explain it
HeavenBound2323 1 year ago
@HeavenBound2323 (Deuteronomy 24:16) - "Fathers shall not be put to death for their sons, nor shall sons be put to death for their fathers; everyone shall be put to death for his own sin."
TheRedLuigi 1 year ago
@TheRedLuigi Well if you read it, it says that A father WONT die for the sins of his sons and that everyone will die for their OWN sins. Not that people die for other peoples sins
HeavenBound2323 1 year ago
@HeavenBound2323 Yeah, but god didnt punish david for his "sin", but he punishes HIS PEOPLE. So other people dies for his sins..
TheRedLuigi 1 year ago
@TheRedLuigi How do you know that the people that died were innocent? The Israelites weren't exactly obedient. Just because God used david's sin to excercise his wrath on the wicked israelites doesn't mean he did it strictly because of David's sin. It was all to teach David a lesson. Plus he was their king. In Deuteronomy the isrealites had God for their king. I dont know where people who are less than a flea think they have the authority to question Almighty GOD
HeavenBound2323 1 year ago
@HeavenBound2323 I can question teh concept of"god"becasue according to teh bible that god gave me a brain to use.And if i see somethign that contradics eachother i will use it liek many otehr people before me and after me too. I simply dont just trust an ancient bronze age book ,written hundrets of years after the so called creation and rewritten countless times.It is basically pure chanc in what religion you are born,so what makes YOUR religion right?
TheRedLuigi 1 year ago
@HeavenBound2323 are you saying that 70,000 that died their wasn't at least one innocent person? do you not feel bad for that ONE PERSON WHO DIED BECAUSE it wasn't their fault?? we have more than just the authority to question mythical creatures it's the people's moral consensus of duty to do so..
mmmodafoca 1 year ago
@TheRedLuigi I was not born into this religion. There is no point to try to convince you because you already don't believe. There is no contradiction here. You have a law that was in effect for a certain time, and after that time was over it was no longer in effect. If you read the bible with the goal to make it not make sense then it won't make sense. I will pray for you every night. If you people don't believe in God why do you even watch these videos.
HeavenBound2323 1 year ago
@HeavenBound2323 I think you mean "if you read the bible hoping for it to make sense, it will". The opposite isn't true because we Atheists who read the bible with no hopes of it "not making sense" end up finding that it either 1) does not make sense, 2) is extremely brutal and unjust in parts or 3) contradicts itself many many times over.
The main reason I watch these videos myself is because I find religion its brainwashed sheep hilarious (yet horribly worrying for society)
BLaZeDRas 1 year ago
@BLaZeDRas I will not throw pearls to swine. One day you will die and have to stand before the God you mock. And then you will expect him to let you into heaven, and then call him brutal for not letting you in.
HeavenBound2323 1 year ago
@TheRedLuigi It's because something inside of you is screaming that there is a God and for you to give up all your sin and come to him. But you can't let go of your sin so you come watch these videos to supress the screaming. To convince yourself that there is no God so you can sleep at night. Nobody has the problem with being a Christian. A true christian that the bible describes. They just don't want to give up anythng.
HeavenBound2323 1 year ago
@HeavenBound2323 Nope. I watch these videos to see both side of teh coin. And i would liek to ask my question again. What makes to think/know that christianity is teh right religion and teh other abrahamic religions are false? If you answer with somethign like "i know it in my heart", then sry, there are millions of jews and muslims who think exactly teh same way you do.
TheRedLuigi 1 year ago
@HeavenBound2323 dude, you arguing about magic. do you never stop to realize this?
holdenbane 1 year ago
@HeavenBound2323 The "he" was not capitalized?!?! seriously? You know the bible is a translation from multiple iterations of translations from several dead languages? Seriously?
GroverGee 1 year ago
Chronicles 21:1 Tells us how Satan told him to do the census. When he say's "HE" it is talking about Satan and Satan tells him to do the Census. You gotta read the whole thing, it's not going to make sense if you do it like this, thats why you are confused
HeavenBound2323 1 year ago
@HeavenBound2323 - Didn't watch the whole video, did you? Watch it again, and pay attention to the end notes.
43alley 1 year ago 3
@43alley Wow...it seems Heavenbound agrees with and supports this supposed deity's punishment of 70k for the sin of one man instead of punishing the one who committed the sin in the first place. Playing favorites...you see this weird sense of mercy and justice throughout the bible.
SpinachSalad01 1 year ago
@HeavenBound2323 You can interpretate the Bible in many ways, that makes it possible to make God always look like the good guy. Then again, if God is omnipotent and so full of love, why does he allow the devil to play his game.It is like this metaphor: you have little children, you love them very much, but you put them in the room together with a vicious dog. You have the power to keep the dog away and the children safe, but for a sick reason you refuse to, just to see how much they can beg you
OhReallyNoWai 1 year ago
whoaahhhhhh I need to check this out O_o
christianshounen101 1 year ago
Euh, maybe I've missed something somewhere, but could somebody explain to me why it is a sin to hold a census?
dawkinsbeagle 1 year ago
@dawkinsbeagle its an abomination, just like gathering sticks on a saturday. lol
TheRedLuigi 1 year ago
"If blind faith and closed-mindedness is the way to God. Then God is the Devil
Michael6504 1 year ago 2
Whats wrong with a census? A cencus was commanded in Numbers to prepare an army for conquering the promised land. A census wasnt needed at the time because they were at peace. Davids sin was pride along with the nations as well. David put his sense of power, faith, his ambition in counting the size and strength of his army instead of trusting God to deliver him regardless of their number.
116Phanatic 1 year ago
@43alley - Thank you again my friend. It's good to have a civil discussion on here for once. It is indeed baffling - and the strangeness doesn't stop there. For David's transgression, God punishes the Israelites rather than David. In fact one of the themes of the Old Testament appears to be that God is fairly capricious.
triskaidekaphobe13 1 year ago
@triskaidekaphobe13 - What should make it even more troubling for a believer is that God not only punishes, but basically says, "Pick one of these three terrible ways I will punish your people" as though he is playing a game.
And when David leaves it up to God, God picks an extremely brutal option of sending a horrific disease that would kill 70,000 over the course of three days.
David should have chosen his army being chased, because he could at least fight his way out of that.
43alley 1 year ago
WTF?!!!!!!!
Should we warn the census takers?
Primalxbeast 1 year ago
@43alley - Well thank you for your help, but what was God's reasoning for asking David to count the people in the first place, knowing that David would obey and be (apparently) guilty of sin - although this is troubling, since it seems to be a case of 'if God tells you to do it, it's not a sin. Certainly God doesn't punish Abraham for his willingness to murder his own son at God's behest - and this seems way milder than that.
triskaidekaphobe13 1 year ago
@triskaidekaphobe13 - That's the problem. The Chronicles version says that Satan convinced David to do it. This version says it was God. So we either have an error (either in the telling or during a later transcription).
Nevertheless, we now have a contradiction.
And if it IS a contradiction, and both versions are claimed to be true, then we have a troubling situation like you mention. Why would God punish for doing what God told David to do in the first place?
Baffling, isn't it?
43alley 1 year ago
I'm really as to the nature of David's sin in II Samuel - if any Christian or Jewish person could enlighten me as to why it was sinful to conduct a census (which seems quite harmless) and why God punished David (or rather the Israelites - David himself got off quite lightly) for doing what he'd just been told to do, that'd be great.
triskaidekaphobe13 1 year ago
@triskaidekaphobe13 - I'm neither Christian nor Jewish, but the explanation that I have heard was that it was considered a sin because you were counting what belonged to someone else. In that time, only those who owned something could count it.
I didn't say it was a great explanation, but it's the best I've been give so far.
43alley 1 year ago
Ah yes, the justice of god is great, for the "sin" of David, 70,000 others get to die, yet David is spared. Hooray for god, yaaaa! Even the biggest dicks on YT are not as evil as this god.
whanethewhip 1 year ago
Did he say Lol i have sinned? at 3:33
Alexc3217 1 year ago
@Alexc3217 Haha, good one. LOL I've sinned. 3:33
TheAlaricPetz 1 year ago
why did not any one say " what? fuck you god!"
lordofdarkdudes 1 year ago
Does it make any sense that god in the old testament killed several more innocent people than the devil did and the devil is still the evil one??
Castropher 1 year ago
when i was young a friend of mines father gave us beer. he later beat the shit out of his son for being drunk. i didnt understand it then, but the bible has cleared it up for me... godlike.
jesusuckdmeoff 1 year ago 5
sounds like tax collection time
jmm1233 1 year ago
If God doesn't like censuses, I wonder what his views are on questionnaires.
Sophtine 1 year ago
@Sophtine Thou shalt not fill in the the circle with a No.1 pencil or thou shalt surely die.
lipoicacid 1 year ago 3
I KNOW THIS ONE!! Actually God and Satan are two sides of the same coin. So God acting in his Satanic role ordered the cencus.
oooh - hang on a minute..... are all cencuses from Satan?
louiseiiid 1 year ago
...and what is "sin" about a census? Any good king would want to manage his kingdom well by knowing facts and figures. The whole premise is lame.
sevenahm 1 year ago
It's not a contradiction god and satan are the same thing is all.
matsut81 1 year ago 5
Wow the god of the old testament is an asshole.
slicingwater 1 year ago 53
@slicingwater Correction: The God of the Old AND New Testaments is an asshole.
Arkafazin 11 months ago
Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the Chronicles version also the first time that Satan enters into the OT? Interestingly, after the Babylonian captivity and their exposure to Zoroastrianism?
Scarlatti2007 1 year ago
@Scarlatti2007 After the captivity [Ahriman] responsibility for evil things shifts from Yahweh to Satan.
lipoicacid 1 year ago
I think David's big sin was revealing god to be a liar through his census.
god promised to make the Israelites number more than the grains of sand, or something equally impossible. David counted them a little too easily.
Made 'god' look like a douche bag liar.
It's just too bad you don't hear that from the pulpit once in a while.
kaneweb 1 year ago 2
well atleast one can take comfort in the fact this is in all probability is just bad fiction
captaindisguise 1 year ago
I dont get it, what was david guilty of?
im not trying to make a sarcastic joke, but what did he do again?
captaindisguise 1 year ago
he didn't put the seat down after using the toilet. god likes the cushy seat
tjohn1986 1 year ago
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God is perfect in all he does yes even judgement, if a judge just let a rapist go because he was genuinly sorry that would b a bad judge. Sin demands punishment.
116Phanatic 2 years ago
You just melted my brain.
43alley 2 years ago 11
I trust you'll be ok? lol
116Phanatic 2 years ago
@116Phanatic
So, he's a good judge, but a bad creator and "parent".
grozde 1 year ago
Why do u say hes a bad creator? and parent?
116Phanatic 1 year ago
@116Phanatic
He's almighty, all-knowing, yet he creates the setup for the original sin; then blames it on his children (who until then don't know what is good and what is not, what is right and wrong, remember?!!), and PUNISHES THEM FOREVER! He didn't teach them - just gave an order and issued a punishment.
Later, his creation became so bad he had to kill EVERYBODY but Noah! (He himself states that he regret creating people!!!) And did that mass-murder work? No - people kept being wicked!...
grozde 1 year ago
@gro He created free will yes but to say hes responsible for people choosing wrongly with that free will is incorrect. And if you"ll read genisis you see that they dont know the DIFFRENCE between good and evil simply because they hadnt ever commited evil. If someones batting a .1000 and had never even had a strike against them, hit the first ball on the first pitch everytime u could say they dont know the diffrence between hitting and not. why would they need to be taught how to get a strike?
116Phanatic 1 year ago
@gro But if they finally do get a strike for the umpire to not call a strike a strike, would imply he was a bad ump and God cant be a "bad ump" And again if you'll read it you'll see that all of creation except noah(and 7 others) were nothing but evil all the time. and it depends on what u mean by "work" there are more then 7 righteous people in the world now and the entire world isnt always completly evil. also man still has free will so he still can be evil.
116Phanatic 1 year ago
@116Phanatic
He cannot be almighty and all-knowing - and give us free will at the same time!
If he knows IN ADVANCE what I'm going to do - this means it's all been destined and I have no free will!
Think about this!!!
PS: So, the 2-months old babies were also evil, right? That's brilliant logic!
And by "work" I meant "be effective". God killed all to make men righteous again. Apparently, unsuccessfully!
grozde 1 year ago
God only knows in advance because to him you have already done it. his knowledge is coming from your free will not his control over you. And about the babies...its called the "age of accountability" (whenever that is)God dosnt hold children that cant reason accountable for their actions. And all men were righteous again until more were born and after some time with their free will became "heathens"
116Phanatic 1 year ago
@116Phanatic
I'm not talking about control; he KNOWS shat I'll do even before I was born! That is to say, I have NO CHOICE! It's been already predestined! And WHO is mighty enough to predestine things??? Riiiight!! ;-)
PS: So, you're saying that in Noah's times babies survived the flood?????
grozde 1 year ago
His knowledge is souly completely and uterly dependent on your choices IN free will. He also knows the other choices that u choose between but ended up not doing, your saying he knew them because he predestined them but he actually knew them because he looked in to the future. And you have to be talking about control because thats the only other option other then free will. either u have a choice or u dont if u dont that means ur at least partially being controlled. And they went to heaven.
116Phanatic 1 year ago
@116Phanatic
Please, read my previous post again, then yours, and I'm sure you'll see you're contradicting yourself.
If he KNOWS what'll happen and he KNOWS how I'll end up - and also knows every minute detail of my fate - I have NO CHOICE, but a route!
So either your god is all-knowing and I DO NOT have free will, or he isn't all-knowing and I DO have free will (or he's not and I don't, but that's another topic).
Or he just doesn't exist (we are still looking for a single evidence...!)
grozde 1 year ago
Kowledge is not causal. Its true u have no choice but your choices. Him knowing that u will choose this option over that will "in effect" take away ur free will, but in reality it wont because thats what u will u choose, U CHOOSE IT. If he didnt have omniscience and then knew what u would do maybe then u would have no free will. The fact he knows it b4 is irrelivant because he see's the future if he didnt know the future and then still "knew" the same things, yes u would have no choice.
116Phanatic 1 year ago
@116Phanatic
If future is per-destined, I HAVE NO CHOICE!!!
Also, if he's omnipotent, and he is the CREATOR, is there something happening AGAINST his will? If no - sin is HIS fault; if yes - well, he's a BAD creator! Unless he WANTED US to go against his will and perfect wisdom - which means he's plain evil!
grozde 1 year ago
@grozde Now you understand god !
God is a kid plaing a battle with his toys , he knowes the outcome of this battle and he kontroles every movement of the toys in his battle.
We are the toys , god is the kid.
AMEN !
Don't lisen to these satanistic christians they are evil siners making up their evil version of god ...and god made them do this ! AMEN !
Don't look at me like this god made me say it .... AMEN !
PerfektBlue 1 year ago
@PerfektBlue
Well, could it be then that Satan is actually this naughty boy's... Mommy??? ;-)
grozde 1 year ago
@116Phanatic
Omg ... I don't know whats funnier your comment or 43alley's reply. But in your scenario the judge doesn't kill everyone in the courtroom just for showing up ... that would make about as much sense as killing 70,000 random people because the king counted how many people were in the neighboring cities.
The bible is a joke heh.
lordtalon69 1 year ago 3
@116Phanatic But God told David to do it and then punished him for it. Wish makes God a prick, making HIM imperfect thusly proving your point invalid.
Logically speaking of course.
MrsCamui 1 year ago
@MrsCamui God does not cause people to sin, but he allows sinners to reveal the sinfulness of their hearts by their actions. God presented the opportunity to David in order to deal with a disaterous national tendancy, and he wanted this desire to show itself. First Chronicles 21:1 says Satan incited David to do it. Hebrew writers do not always distinguish between primary and secondary causes. So to them if God allowed Satan to tempt David, it was as if God did it.
116Phanatic 1 year ago
@116Phanatic
Then let me ask you this, aren't we supposed to do what GOD asks us without question? If that the case, why punish the man who he asked to complete the task?
Also, what is so sinful about a census? It's a simple head count and last I checked there's no where in the Bible that states that someone should be punished for a head count.
MrsCamui 1 year ago
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@MrsCamui Yes we are. God asked him to take a census, he did not ask him to take pride in the strength of his armys and put his faith in its power instead of God. Davids sin was pride along with the nations as well. David put his sense of power, faith, his ambition in counting the size and strength of his army instead of trusting God to deliver him regardless of their number.
116Phanatic 1 year ago
@MrsCamui Yes we should. If all David had done was take a count because the Lord asked and left it at that it would have been fine. Davids sin was pride along with the nations as well. David put his sense of power, faith, his ambition in counting the size and strength of his army instead of trusting God to deliver him regardless of their number.
116Phanatic 1 year ago
God is a troll lol
Pvic 2 years ago 2
you know if you really think about it. light is good,truth is good, knowledge is good,man has free will and that is good who brought these things to man? the bringer of light, lucifer, satan(adversary to a capricoius and evil tyrant) kind of hard to avoid, the good guy in the bible is the devil.
doorki42 2 years ago 2
Actually, Lucifer is not Satan. Yahweh, the god of the bible, however is a tyrant. He created us knowing that many of us would be unable to attain his salvation. 30 million people or so dead during the flood of Noah. If a man did this he would sit in the ranks of Pol Pot, Hitler, Stalin, and Mao.
jesuriah 2 years ago 4
Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
At least God takes credit for his dastardly deeds.
Ebal the Atheist
ebaltrace 2 years ago 2
Please, don't talk about free will. There's no free will in Christianity. It's either God's way or eternal torture and damnation. To coin Hitchens, at least the poor bastards in the old testament got to die.
anthonydavidpirtle 2 years ago 31
a census taker once tried to test me. I hate his liver, because god made a famine.
RaustBD 2 years ago 2
You hate his liver?
That's nothing. I hate liver too.
Deke101 2 years ago
@RaustBD Did the Lord deliver a crate of chanti as well? ;)
altosax1st 2 years ago
3 days pestilence is the obvious choice.
baigandine 2 years ago
God moved David in the same way that He hardened Pharaoh's heart. Not that He made David sin, but that He took away his hand of restraint of sin in him, and David's own human pride and vanity does the rest. God tempts no man to sin (James 1:13), but neither is He obligated to restrain any man from his own sin.
vonstoogan 2 years ago
God doesn't tempt people?
Genesis 22:1: God did tempt Abraham.
ANd then look no farther than your own Lord's Prayer:
"And lead us not into temptation."
Why would you have to ask God to not lead you into temptation if he already doesn't lead you into temptation?
43alley 2 years ago
God did not tepmt Abraham. The Bible says that God "tested" him. There is a huge diffence between being tested and tempted. Here is a deffinition.
To tempt:
1. To try to get (someone) to do wrong, especially by a promise of reward.
2. To be inviting or attractive
a test: a series of questions, problems, or physical responses designed to determine knowledge, intelligence, or ability.
vonstoogan 2 years ago
The prayer doesn't say "And please dont tempt us"... it says "and LEAD us not into temptation?"
In other words "God please dont allow me to be tempted by the devil."
vonstoogan 2 years ago
No, God TESTED Abraham. God does not tempt one to sin.
"And lead us not into temptation."
Are you serious?
Deke101 2 years ago
no but he did tell Abraham to lie "give false witness" about his wife.
Dudeamis 2 years ago
Where does it say that?
vonstoogan 2 years ago
@Dudeamis
Where does it say God commanded Moses to bear false witness?
Deke101 2 years ago
rofl I said Abraham, learn to read.
Dudeamis 2 years ago
HAH! LOL. My bad. Abraham, Moses. What's the difference? You probably don't believe either one of them existed anyway.
Seriously, there are several instances in scripture where God tells his servants to lie for the greater good. Look at the midwives lying to the Pharoah that all the children were killed. Later we see Moses doing the same thing. Obedience to God trumps the Ten Commandments.
Deke101 2 years ago
HA so its okay to lie when god tells you to? Seems like morality only applies when it suits him.
Dudeamis 2 years ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
God is unchanging. Try some actual study of scripture instead of looking for nits to pick.
Deke101 2 years ago
rofl I've read the book several times, spent the majority of my adult life as a Christian, and I can tell you one thing. you're right about god being unchanging. He didn't exist in Jesus's time, and he still doesn't.
Dudeamis 2 years ago 8
Well, as I have said before, go publish your hard-hitting analysis at your local theological university and turn the religious world on it's head. Do something. BE somebody. You 'da MAN.
Deke101 2 years ago
too bad they will just ignore it and keep on praying to their imaginary best friend. The best tool in the Christian's toolbox is bad memory.
Dudeamis 2 years ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
So, how does it feel to spend most of your adult life being wrong about scripture? You had questions and you NEVER got them answered? It seems your faith was not that strong to begin with. Maybe you were always looking for reasons to rebel.
Deke101 2 years ago
how does it feel? pretty good, to finally be free of the lie.
Oh and actually I was always looking for ways to support my faith. Unfortunately its impossible to debunk every counter Christian argument, without ignoring the arguments to begin with. Your god is a lie
Dudeamis 2 years ago 5
Wrong about scripture? Exactly how many denominatins are out there? Exactly how many interpretations of scripture are out there? A former christian myself, I had felt that the only way to come to an honest conclusion was to read the scripture uninhibited by dogma and along with deep prayer.
The answer I was given...The bible is not perfect and cannot be trusted as a source of information. I feel sorry for the people who continue to do so.
MasterBlueTiger 2 years ago
Number of denominations and interpretations are not a hit on scripture, they are a hit on flawed MEN.
Jesus preached against dogma, as well.
You were given a false answer. I feel sorry for those who have arrived at a conclusion due to faulty information.
Deke101 2 years ago
So God himself, the being I had parayed to, made a mistake? Sorry, but no, that is both arrogant and insulting. I've seen many christians demonstrate this attitcude and was one of the things I prayed about. Basically that if another christian comes up with an answer they don't like, it was false without any evidence as to why. Stupidity is what most would call it.
I know now its all bogus, and thankfully so.
MasterBlueTiger 2 years ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
God made a mistake? Where do you get this? God does not make mistakes.
I must agree that Christians were the biggest obstacle I had to becoming a Christian. Again, the flaws of MEN do not mean that scripture is flawed.
Deke101 2 years ago
If mankind is so flawed that we can't even get something as perfect as the bible right, than perfect or not the bible is useless to man. The only possible way to know if which is right is to look inside yourself. Does your denomination believe that god resides within the hearts of his believers? If so, where do you think your going to get real info? A dusty tome and the subjective view of men on pulpits can't beat going straight to the source, right?
MasterBlueTiger 2 years ago
Trying to think of the best example of a mistake from god, many to choose from, so I'm starting from square one. The creation of man in the first place. If god is all powerful, and there is nothing he cannot do, than he could create a world without ere. Blame it on Man? God is all knowing, therefore he knew the consequences and yet he still blames us? These days this would be considered a sign of an abusive personality.
MasterBlueTiger 2 years ago
There are no here are only percieved examples. The creation of man was no mistake. Free will is a bitch. Abusive personality? No, a personality that didn't create us to be robots.
Deke101 2 years ago
You're entitled to your opinion, but this only convinces me that christians are suffering from the biggest case of stockholm syndrome ever. Only perceived examples? If that were true are legal system would be useless as anything crime could be written off as only perceived that way. God created us to submit or burn, you call that free will. God sounds like a sadist who only gave will so he could torture people. Real nice guy.
MasterBlueTiger 2 years ago
Rather than go after free will, it is a more reasonable critique of theism (and especially creationism) to bring up human instincts that interfere with free will AND cause "sinful" behavior. For example, it is very difficult for teenagers to avoid becoming angry with their parents, because they have a natural aversion to being told what to do. As a person, I would be able to exercise free will better if I didn't have anger flare up against my will and cloud my judgment. Instinct contributes.
tifforo1 2 years ago
Abusive yes. Is there anything your children could do, including not loving you, that would make you torture them forever?
jesuriah 2 years ago 4
@jesuriah sounded like matt d. from TAE lol...
danielyeh 2 years ago
Yep, that's where I got it from
jesuriah 2 years ago
i c. so God creates commandments he cannot follow, and then call himself the almighty one. Then expects us to follow what he can't...? He should learn to Practice what he preaches then.
JomMWAH 1 year ago
This party was over a month ago. Are you asking me to dance now?
1) He created the commandments for MEN. Wh
Deke101 1 year ago
then He commands Men to break them. yeah right
JomMWAH 1 year ago
Why should He have to follow them?
Can't? Of course He could. Hence, omnipotence.
He does not call Himself 'the almighty one.'
Exactly HOW should He 'practice what He preaches?'
Deke101 1 year ago
Would you follow a leader who can't do wat he says? Come on Deke you know wat I'm trying to say here. Alright so he does not call himself almighty. what do I call him then?How? u ask me how? U know the answers, by not giving people orders that would threaten his commandments. for example, Kill your enemies? Like how David killed Goliath? is that it? I thought he values human life? and what happens to love your enemy?
JomMWAH 1 year ago
You are asking several different questions here, and some of them stem from fallacy.
God as a leader is omnipotent. What IS there that He cannot do?
God calls Himself many things, I AM being the simplest.
God gives no orders that threaten His commandments, for Gos does not tempt man to sin. 'Thou salt not kill' should actually read 'Thou shalt not murder.'
How does man eat or perform temple sacrifice in the commandment forbids killing? Justified killing is not murder.
Deke101 1 year ago
Rofl David did nothing wrong, he was doing the will of God.
Dudeamis 2 years ago
@vonstoogan
Thanks for the assist. I have been trying to say just that for days.
Deke101 2 years ago
I think deke101 is a good example of how scripture makes ones mind shrink into stupidity and will go through all kinds of contortions to avoid the blatant truth of this fiction and what a vicous mind virus it is.
deke101 if you cant see how retarded you lack of reasoning is then there is no helping you, you deserve all the ridicule you get
may god b less as coughlan 666 like to say :)
freezatron 2 years ago
My mind has only expanded since finding faith. I am open to many more possibilities in the universe than I was before.
If YOU can't see the point from the other side, I have only pity for you.
Bring on the ridicule. I find it amusing, as long as it is kept fresh.
Deke101 2 years ago
you are an idiot , fuck off !
freezatron 2 years ago
Hah! MORE hard-hitting analysis from the freeza!
Deke101 2 years ago
This has been flagged as spam show
.
If this webpage has a designer, who designed your brain? The fool has said There is no God (Psalm 14:1)
but I say unto you, that every one who shall say to his brother, Thou fool, shall be in danger of the hell of fire. (Mat.5:22) who are my brethren? whosoever shall do the will of my Father in heaven, he is my brother (Mat.12:48-50) but the fool has said there is no God
.
conceil8 2 years ago
if only he was real, having done some delving into this the most insidious of fictions I learn that around 0000AD a Roman called Ovidious Nasa may have been the architect of the idea of jesus, which is plagerised from at least 15 other prohpets before hime who also were born of a virgin & risen after 3 days, which is a story interpretation of the zodiac.
amazes me how powerful religion is for controlling people, the weak minded ones anyway, come back deke101 we want to ridicule you some more :)
freezatron 2 years ago
"Following the word of God correctly would NOT be immoral"
right then I'm off to burn a few goats, rape a few virgins & marry them, buy & then beat some slaves, grow my hair long & keep it short and kill anyone who blasphemes, denies the word of god & anyone who works on a sunday.
deke101 =witless the holy101 = abject retard clinging desperately to his man made fiction
You're a fucking idiot with lamentable analogies riddled with logical penis's !
in short, fuck off you immoral twat!
freezatron 2 years ago
If you burn goats today, you would be a PAGAN, not a Christian.
Rape someone and you are worthy of death.
Slavery is no longer legal.
The length of a man's hair is no longer an issue.
Ah, here comes the genital humor. I was wondering when you would let that fly. BORING!
Deke101 2 years ago
you are very dismissive of evidence you dont like, you barely glimpsed the links.
your mind is made up so tight no evidence will be good enough for idjits like you.
prove the existence of god & i'll believe
freezatron 2 years ago
there is nothing original to discuss !
as if anything you've said hasn't been regurgitated before !
why doesn't god heal amputees ?
there is no reasonable answer other than he doesn't exist, just like prayer doesn't work etc et al
reading the bibble doesn't count as research ?
Mithras & the 15 others before him ?
freezatron 2 years ago
"there is nothing original to discuss !"
Right. There is nothing new under the sun. All of these arguments have been hashed over before any of us were born, and yet you guys still hold them up as somehow 'owning' the Bible even when they have been answered.
Deke101 2 years ago
because the answers are a poor substitue for understanding and the reason it is still current is because of all the suffering it causes.
to be commanded to love and fear and believe in this particular god as opposed to the thousands of others man has created seems ludicrous and immoral.
ok lets outline what you believe for the sake of clarity, do you think the bibble is the literal truth ie man was created in the image of god & the Earth is 6000ish years old etc ?
freezatron 2 years ago
The answers ARE understanding. Just because YOU don't like them, doesn't mean they are not true. Misunderstanding and the selfishness of men causes suffering.
Following the word of God correctly would NOT be immoral.
According to scripture, man WAS created in His image to rule over the earth and all things in it. According to the creation account and the lineage of Adam, the creation happened around 4400 BC.
Deke101 2 years ago
Wow, Deke, I never would have pegged you as a young earth creationist. Wow.
I totally disagree with you on a vast majority of theological points, but I still like the fact that you vigorously debate and occasionally score a point or make your case clear (not taking a position that you've done that in this vid or this topic).
But when you say the Earth is approximately 6,000 years old ... wow. That's such a ridiculous thing to say. It's just ... wow. I'm speechless.
43alley 2 years ago
I stated that according to scripture, and the genealogy of Adam, the creation happened around 4400 BC.
I did not say I believe the earth is 6000 yrs old.
I happen to believe in the merits of the scientific method. I believe the creation acount and the fall of man story to be greatly metaphorical in nature. I believe these events may have taken place over a much longer period of time.
Deke101 2 years ago
Are you suggesting that the first human (as we know it) came around 6,000 years ago? Is that what you mean by "the creation?"
How does that take evolution into account and the fact that homosapiens have ben around 100,000 to 200,000 years? I'm sincerely curious on this point.
43alley 2 years ago
so global genocide is ok with you ?
to wipe the earth clean and start anew doesn't seem like erasing a mistake to you ?
they pretty much do agree on 4.5 billion years irrespective of what you say
"Try an argument of your own"
haha, of course your's are so original, we are obviously giving you to much attention but thank you for your stunningly inadequate answers anyway, should my hair be long or short ?
Mithras & the 15 others before him.
& what about the amputees gOD never heals?
freezatron 2 years ago
"Cruelty implies an enjoyment of suffering"
WRONG ! it implies negligence
why does gOD never heal amputees ?
I understand sufferers like you don't want to lose face & thus will never renounce your faith etc but watch this ;-
watch?v=RFMS9ygeVE4&feature=PlayList&p=1B7664688123E223&index=14
je$u$ was not the first fictional character to be born of a virgin & rise after 3 days of death etc.
it is so obviously man made, have you looked at any of the links I've posted up ?
freezatron 2 years ago
Negligence is a possible implication of cruelty, but it does not make my answer wrong. lol. Scripture does not imply negligence either, so the point is moot.
God and amputees? Wow. your originality is what is suffering here, not me.
Yes I watched the agonizing video "Truth Behind." The stuffy Brit sets forth several Biblical falacies as usual. Atheists sure do like a guy with a British accent, don't they?
Deke101 2 years ago
does the bibble comment on how long men should wear there hair ?
do you know what a circular argument is ?
"The age of the earth is hardly proven" WRONG ! no scientist says 6000 years tehy all say 4.5 billion years
"The flood does not mean God made a mistake" WRONG !
"With Jesus came the New Covenant and the Old Covenant was finnished" meaning gOED couldn't get it right the first time !
but we are arguing over fairy tales, ever heard of Mithras ?
freezatron 2 years ago