Ah! but John Nelson Darby is not the originator of Dispensationlism, He borrow those ideas from his contemporary fellow Sir Edward Denny who discovered "The Jubilee Principle" how God measured Time an excellent exegesis of how God measrues time in the Old Testament but Edward Denny took it to far, applying to Israel which did not exist at the time -predicting the resurgence of Israel in the 1930's, if you want to know where the 2000 year parenthesis idea came from, it came from Edward Denny.
The cross was a plan B from the beginning was it not? What if Adam and Eve had not sinned? God told them to not sin. But they did. The cross even then was a plan B.
1. (2 Timothy 2:15) Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
2. The MYSTERY of the cross was first revealed to Paul, not Peter or the other apostles, they were actually confused. (Luke 18:31-34).
3. This guy should be using the King James Bible. (Psalm 12:6-7) (2 Cor 4:2) (2 Tim 4:4) (Deut 32:1-5) (1 Cor 14:33) (John 17:17) ....Compare (Daniel 3:25) in KJV vs NIV
@sinktool33 1.llTim2v15...rightly dividing... .: means correctly expounding, has nothing to do with separating ethnic Jews & the rest of the world.
2. Paul was the *last* of the apostles/disciples to understand the work of Christ on the cross. Luke ch24 + Acts15v7~11(v7... Peter rose up, and said... God made choice among us, that the *Gentiles by my mouth* should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.)
3. John1v1&Rev19v13...The Word of God.(king james is very good but King Jesus is forever).
@zacqt cont Ephesians 3:5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostle*s* and prophet*s* by the Spirit; {##the *symbol of the sacrificial lamb* was know from the beginning Gen22v13&14...Jehovahjireh:means>God has provided.+ *Isaiah ch53*+John1v29... Behold the *Lamb of God*, which taketh away the sin of the world.##}3:6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the *same body*, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
@zacqt cont.*The promise* comes from Gen17v4...my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of *many nations*.
Galatians3:7&8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before *the gospel* unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall *all nations* be blessed.3:29 And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to *the promise*.
Paul taught 1church not 2.>1Cor10v1~*4*+Eph2v12~19.
@Kasine4412 Fair comment regarding your channel, i was going to send you a video from my favourites called "Bika Mono Ve"-Uploaded by skarlet13. The song at the 2.50min/sec mark speaks of Colossians2v14. Hope you check it out & the top 2 comments there also.
RE law. 1Tim1:8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;
RE spiritual Jew Gal3:29 And *if ye be Christ’s*, then are ye *Abraham’s seed*, and heirs according to the promise.
Many mix ceremonial/ordinance law with royal law
@Kasine4412 Why do you hide your channel? John3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because...?
Looking at Galatians 6:15-16, Paul minimizes the distinction between circumcised and uncircumcised within the context of the "new creation," but he still recognizes the distinction here! He is not calling the church "the Israel of God" here. He is rather recognizing the Israel of God (believing Israel) along with the uncircumcision (believing Gentiles) as parts of the "new creation." Eph 2:16 ...that he might reconcile both (believing Israel and believing Gentiles) unto God in one body...
@rossjpurdy RE: circumcision, Romans2:28 For he is *not a Jew*, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
2:29 But *he is a Jew*, which is one *inwardly*; and circumcision is that of
*the heart*, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of
men, but of God.
Compare Rev2v9...of them which *say they are Jews*, and *are not*, but are the synagogue of Satan. Rev3v9...which *say they are Jews*, and *are not*, but do lie;
@zacqt Rom 2:28 is indeed referring to Jews and not Gentiles. Paul throughout Romans contrasts Jews and Gentiles. Here he is distinguishing between spiritual (believing or Christian Jews) and non-believing Christ-rejecting Jews. The same distinction is being made in Revelation.
@rossjpurdy RE: Romans2v28 For he is *not a Jew*, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
2:29 But he *is a Jew*, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.(God looks at the heart)
V26 & 29 show physical nationality is not counted, only "spiritual citizenship"(faith)
Rev2v9&3v9..which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie;#why do they claim 2 be Jews?
Elsewhere, Paul minimizes the difference between Jew and Gentile to make a point, but in 1Corinthians 12:13 (and elsewhere as well) he maintains the distinction between Jew and Gentile. Romans 11 does NOT say that the Gentiles are graft into Israel! Israel is rather broke off of the olive tree and the Gentiles are grafted onto the olive tree! The olive tree is not Israel. The opportunity is salvation, not Israelite citizenship.
@rossjpurdy RE: "...,not Israelite citizenship."??? not geographical Israel may be, but definitely spiritual citizenship. Eph 2v12...being aliens from the *commonwealth of Israel*,... v14...who hath made *both one*,... v16... reconcile *both* unto God in *one body*...v18...*both* have access by *one Spirit*...19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and *foreigners*, but *fellowcitizens* with the saints, and of the household of God;
True Salvation ultimately=citizenship of The new Jerusalem.
@zacqt It was in the past that Gentiles were separated from citizenship in Israel without a great deal of hoop jumping and red tape. Paul is merely stating the facts of the past. But now there is a joint citizenship but Paul nowhere says that it is in Israel, spiritual or otherwise. Paul rather reveals the joint citizenship as being in a new creation called and the church which is His body! A new group in which BOTH Jew and Gentile are joint-heirs, even with Jesus Christ.
Israel, as a national entity with covenant privilege, is set aside as Paul explains in Romans until they are regathered by God Himself into the future kingdom and restored to covenant status. While the new covenant is vested in Christ and He is free to make executive decisions to distribute new covenant blessings as He sees fit, everyone is only able to access God and salvation via God's grace. No one is in covenant relationship with God today because we are enjoying God's grace.
@rossjpurdy Yes salvation has always been by faith & grace from Adam until the end of this earth.
The modern day church loves:Romans6v14...for ye are not under *the law*, but under grace. The next verse15...God forbid. /// Is a reminder that the Royal Law still applies even now, always has & will.
In Matt22v1~14, v3 =invite to the Jews v9&10 =is invite to Gentiles v11~14=warning to the church that rejects the greater law(not the deeds or ceremonial law), but the law of Truth & Grace.John1v17
@zacqt Rom 8:1-2 KJV There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
@zacqt Joh 1:17 KJV 17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
The Law failed to make man righteous where Jesus Christ is effective. The distinction of ceremonial vs moral is artificial and not real; there is no such separation possible in practice. If you practice one part, you must practice all. Jam 2:10 KJV 10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
Acts 15:24; Gal 3; Php 3:9; 1Tim 1:9; Heb 7:19; 10:1
@rossjpurdy RE Law: The royal law encompasses the general precept/principals of the former Mosaic law(Matt22v37~22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.)
Matt5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Romans3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.(=to rightly divide the word of truth=correctly expound). Grace without truth is lawlessness-Jude1v3&4.
Romans11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is *wild by nature*,(=non Jew) and wert graffed *contrary to nature*(=non-equally yoked) into *a*(1 tree) good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the *natural branches*,(=the Jew) be graffed into their own(Jewish) olive tree?
11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved:(=all believers=Gen17v4 many nations)
Not all geographic Israel but all who are seed of Jacob-now-called Israel(Gen32v28).
@zacqt Rom 11:26 refers to all Israel, it does NOT say all believers.
The olive tree refers to the special place of privilege Israel had with God. That was due to God's choice, not anything inherent in their ethnicity. The idea is access to blessings of which Israel was to be the conduit. They are temporarily set aside but will be restored and will properly minister to the other nations in the kingdom.
@rossjpurdy RE Romans11v26 And so all Israel shall be saved:... Israel is the name of the elect>Abraham(father of many nations), his son was Isaac, his son was Jacob>Gen32v28...Thy name shall be called no more *Jacob, but Israel*:... . Gal3:29 And if ye be Christ’s, *then are ye* Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.
v11...through *their fall* salvation is come unto the *Gentiles*,... v13 For I speak to you *Gentiles*, v15...reconciling of the *world*,...(not just the middle east)
Ephesians 2:19 mentions "the household of God" with which us Gentiles in the body of Christ are joined. I understand this as a broader grouping which includes all saints of all ages. So there is definitely a continuity to be observed along with finer distinctions. Those identified with the body of Christ by the one baptism 1Corinthians 12:13 and Ephesians 4:5 are unique.
"Church" is really a broad term and always needs to be qualified. Christ said he was going to build HIS church. I take that statement of possession as a qualifier. It begins with the Christ and He owns it. As Paul says, "the church, which is His (Christ's) body." So Moses does not qualify as a member. In Hebrews 12 right after the great cloud of witnesses, we find mention of "the general assembly and church of the firstborn" which is composed apparently of all the past saints, including Moses.
@rossjpurdy RE:"Church", I believe the church, the temple & the body(of Christ) are all one & the same.>John2:19~21 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy *this temple*, and in three days I will raise it up.{i will build my church/temple, He spoke of His body}. Not built with hands-Mark14v58.
In Hebrews3v1 High Priest,v6 whose house are we,v7To day, v8 as in...wilderness:(acts7v38the church in the wilderness). Same Master/spirit of both early & late church lCor10v1~4.-/-Luke 24:27...Moses...
@zacqt I just discovered that I can reply to individual posts!
So you agree that Christ's church begins/is built by him after His resurrection?
Again, "church" is a generic term and we can not assume it is a technical designation for the same thing every time we see it. In Christ's body church, is there anyone who is not sealed by the HS unto salvation? No, all are sealed. In that church in the wilderness, how many of them were true believers? Only three! Not the same!
And what about the "churches" in Acts 19:37? Are we to understand these as "Christian" churches? What about the "ecclesia" in verse 32 and 39. The term church must be qualified or different churches will be confused and conflated. I am not denying the continuity of the different groups of believers all of which will eventually be under Christ one way or another, but their distinctness must also be recognized as well.
@zacqt Christ did say He WOULD build His church did He not?
Again, I agree all redemption is through Jesus Christ, there is continuity in that. But Scripture has made distinctions: inner vs outer court.
1Co 10:5 KJV 5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness. So not all of them (most all except 3) were not saved. Those before Christ came were rewarded for their faith and looked forward to reward. But they did not enjoy what members have.
@rossjpurdy RE Matt16v18...That thou art Peter(means rock or stone), and upon this *rock* I will build my church;... . To lay rock in a "building" you need a foundation. Christ is that spiritual foundation Rock.~The same Rock mentioned by Paul in 1Cor10v1~4....for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that *Rock was Christ*. > Acts7v38 ...church in the wilderness John2v19....Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.~v21But he spake of the temple of his body.
@rossjpurdy, cont... .the old & new testament church is made one. Hebrews13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever. John10v16...and there shall be *one* fold, and *one* shepherd. >Eph4:4There is *one* body, and *one* Spirit, even as ye are called in *one* hope of your calling; 4:5 *One* Lord, *one* faith, *one* baptism, 4:6 *One* God and Father of all, ... .
In the theoretical "future-1000year-rein?", do you really think Christ will tolerate animal sacrifice for sin?.
I agree that dispensationalism has a fundamental flaw in maintaining a wide gap between Israel and the church. Yet, a distinction is to be made between Israel as a nation and saved Israelites who are part of the church. Neither should the church be confused with Israel as some kind of replacement for it. The church is NOT "spiritual Israel," nor the bride, nor the "new Israel" or some such nonsense. That would merely be accepting an alternate popular belief system!
@rossjpurdy Do you agree Moses is part of the same church as true believers today?-lCor10v1~4. /+Eph4v4~6 1body 1faith 1 spirit 1 Lord 1 baptism.
It is my view, that gentiles are grafted into Israel>Romans11v17(1 olive tree not 2), The church doesn't replace Israel, but i think the church is called "the Israel of God". Gen32v28/Galatains6v16. Gen17v4(+26v4) outlines the boundaries of the church./=Gal3v7,8&29
I'm always willing to be corrected with scripture but not the philosophies of man.
Also, if you listen to any disp, plan B as Otis calls it is presented as plan A. The "If the Jews had accepted it..." question is always hypothetical and accounted for by God's sovereign knowledge and plan. God planned it exactly as it played out from before the foundation of the world. God knew and saw that the Jews would reject it. Otis does no one any favors by creating a false caricature of Dispensationalism.
@rossjpurdy Either way the fundamental problem with dispensationalism is scripture doesn't support it. I think a lot of people grew up just excepting a "popular" belief system. Scripture clearly shows God only has one people. John10v16...and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd. Act7v38... the *church* in the wilderness... .lCor10v1~4 And did all drink the *same spiritual drink*: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that *Rock was Christ*. Eph2v19... fellowcitizens.
If you are going to critique a movement At least bring it up to recent history please! The current position would be better! Is it too much too ask for someone who is going to characterize a movement to do their homework? Otis did not do his homework and creates a straw-man.
Why doesn't this gentleman interact with mature dispensational material written in the last 70 years? Better yet, the last 20 years. He rather interacts with ancient and primitive writers that are for the most part thought of as quaint by current dispensationalism. He also falsely paints the old disps as arminian! They were all calvinists ... who if any disps quote or follow this Blackstone and Gordon fellas? Even DeHaan has been dead for 45 years!
If the Jews would have accepted Jesus as their King, He would have to be sacrificed at the temple first instead of the Cross.
And we believe the church age was hid in God, a mystery(Eph3:5) so that Satan would not try to prevent Christ's resurrection. The disciples didn't even understand(Luk18:32-34) and Jesus didn't even begin teaching it until Mark 8:31.
In every Dispensation there is Grace... or else mankind would not exist. :)
Just addressing the things that bothered me, haha.
Ah! but John Nelson Darby is not the originator of Dispensationlism, He borrow those ideas from his contemporary fellow Sir Edward Denny who discovered "The Jubilee Principle" how God measured Time an excellent exegesis of how God measrues time in the Old Testament but Edward Denny took it to far, applying to Israel which did not exist at the time -predicting the resurgence of Israel in the 1930's, if you want to know where the 2000 year parenthesis idea came from, it came from Edward Denny.
NewDay867 3 weeks ago
The cross was a plan B from the beginning was it not? What if Adam and Eve had not sinned? God told them to not sin. But they did. The cross even then was a plan B.
strattgatt 3 weeks ago
sir just a slightly incorrect statement of the proposal of arminianism!
ThomasBSenior 1 month ago
Doesn't the Bible tell us.....
1. (2 Timothy 2:15) Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
2. The MYSTERY of the cross was first revealed to Paul, not Peter or the other apostles, they were actually confused. (Luke 18:31-34).
3. This guy should be using the King James Bible. (Psalm 12:6-7) (2 Cor 4:2) (2 Tim 4:4) (Deut 32:1-5) (1 Cor 14:33) (John 17:17) ....Compare (Daniel 3:25) in KJV vs NIV
sinktool33 2 months ago
@sinktool33 1.llTim2v15...rightly dividing... .: means correctly expounding, has nothing to do with separating ethnic Jews & the rest of the world.
2. Paul was the *last* of the apostles/disciples to understand the work of Christ on the cross. Luke ch24 + Acts15v7~11(v7... Peter rose up, and said... God made choice among us, that the *Gentiles by my mouth* should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.)
3. John1v1&Rev19v13...The Word of God.(king james is very good but King Jesus is forever).
zacqt 2 months ago
@zacqt cont Ephesians 3:5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostle*s* and prophet*s* by the Spirit; {##the *symbol of the sacrificial lamb* was know from the beginning Gen22v13&14...Jehovahjireh:means>God has provided.+ *Isaiah ch53*+John1v29... Behold the *Lamb of God*, which taketh away the sin of the world.##}3:6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the *same body*, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
zacqt 2 months ago
@zacqt cont.*The promise* comes from Gen17v4...my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of *many nations*.
Galatians3:7&8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before *the gospel* unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall *all nations* be blessed.3:29 And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to *the promise*.
Paul taught 1church not 2.>1Cor10v1~*4*+Eph2v12~19.
Acts7v37&38...the *church* in the wilderness... .
zacqt 2 months ago
@Kasine4412 Fair comment regarding your channel, i was going to send you a video from my favourites called "Bika Mono Ve"-Uploaded by skarlet13. The song at the 2.50min/sec mark speaks of Colossians2v14. Hope you check it out & the top 2 comments there also.
RE law. 1Tim1:8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;
RE spiritual Jew Gal3:29 And *if ye be Christ’s*, then are ye *Abraham’s seed*, and heirs according to the promise.
Many mix ceremonial/ordinance law with royal law
zacqt 2 months ago
@Kasine4412 Why do you hide your channel? John3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because...?
zacqt 2 months ago
Looking at Galatians 6:15-16, Paul minimizes the distinction between circumcised and uncircumcised within the context of the "new creation," but he still recognizes the distinction here! He is not calling the church "the Israel of God" here. He is rather recognizing the Israel of God (believing Israel) along with the uncircumcision (believing Gentiles) as parts of the "new creation." Eph 2:16 ...that he might reconcile both (believing Israel and believing Gentiles) unto God in one body...
rossjpurdy 2 months ago
@rossjpurdy RE: circumcision, Romans2:28 For he is *not a Jew*, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
2:29 But *he is a Jew*, which is one *inwardly*; and circumcision is that of
*the heart*, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of
men, but of God.
Compare Rev2v9...of them which *say they are Jews*, and *are not*, but are the synagogue of Satan. Rev3v9...which *say they are Jews*, and *are not*, but do lie;
=say they Christian.
zacqt 2 months ago
@zacqt Rom 2:28 is indeed referring to Jews and not Gentiles. Paul throughout Romans contrasts Jews and Gentiles. Here he is distinguishing between spiritual (believing or Christian Jews) and non-believing Christ-rejecting Jews. The same distinction is being made in Revelation.
rossjpurdy 2 months ago
@rossjpurdy RE: Romans2v28 For he is *not a Jew*, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
2:29 But he *is a Jew*, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.(God looks at the heart)
V26 & 29 show physical nationality is not counted, only "spiritual citizenship"(faith)
Rev2v9&3v9..which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie;#why do they claim 2 be Jews?
zacqt 2 months ago
@zacqt The context in Romans here is speaking of Jews: spiritual Jews and unspiritual Jews.
rossjpurdy 2 months ago
Elsewhere, Paul minimizes the difference between Jew and Gentile to make a point, but in 1Corinthians 12:13 (and elsewhere as well) he maintains the distinction between Jew and Gentile. Romans 11 does NOT say that the Gentiles are graft into Israel! Israel is rather broke off of the olive tree and the Gentiles are grafted onto the olive tree! The olive tree is not Israel. The opportunity is salvation, not Israelite citizenship.
rossjpurdy 2 months ago
@rossjpurdy RE: "...,not Israelite citizenship."??? not geographical Israel may be, but definitely spiritual citizenship. Eph 2v12...being aliens from the *commonwealth of Israel*,... v14...who hath made *both one*,... v16... reconcile *both* unto God in *one body*...v18...*both* have access by *one Spirit*...19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and *foreigners*, but *fellowcitizens* with the saints, and of the household of God;
True Salvation ultimately=citizenship of The new Jerusalem.
zacqt 2 months ago
@zacqt It was in the past that Gentiles were separated from citizenship in Israel without a great deal of hoop jumping and red tape. Paul is merely stating the facts of the past. But now there is a joint citizenship but Paul nowhere says that it is in Israel, spiritual or otherwise. Paul rather reveals the joint citizenship as being in a new creation called and the church which is His body! A new group in which BOTH Jew and Gentile are joint-heirs, even with Jesus Christ.
rossjpurdy 2 months ago
Israel, as a national entity with covenant privilege, is set aside as Paul explains in Romans until they are regathered by God Himself into the future kingdom and restored to covenant status. While the new covenant is vested in Christ and He is free to make executive decisions to distribute new covenant blessings as He sees fit, everyone is only able to access God and salvation via God's grace. No one is in covenant relationship with God today because we are enjoying God's grace.
rossjpurdy 2 months ago
@rossjpurdy Yes salvation has always been by faith & grace from Adam until the end of this earth.
The modern day church loves:Romans6v14...for ye are not under *the law*, but under grace. The next verse15...God forbid. /// Is a reminder that the Royal Law still applies even now, always has & will.
In Matt22v1~14, v3 =invite to the Jews v9&10 =is invite to Gentiles v11~14=warning to the church that rejects the greater law(not the deeds or ceremonial law), but the law of Truth & Grace.John1v17
zacqt 2 months ago
@zacqt Rom 8:1-2 KJV There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
rossjpurdy 2 months ago
Rom 8:3-4
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
rossjpurdy 2 months ago
2Co 5:17 KJV 17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
rossjpurdy 2 months ago
@zacqt Joh 1:17 KJV 17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
The Law failed to make man righteous where Jesus Christ is effective. The distinction of ceremonial vs moral is artificial and not real; there is no such separation possible in practice. If you practice one part, you must practice all. Jam 2:10 KJV 10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
Acts 15:24; Gal 3; Php 3:9; 1Tim 1:9; Heb 7:19; 10:1
rossjpurdy 2 months ago
@rossjpurdy RE Law: The royal law encompasses the general precept/principals of the former Mosaic law(Matt22v37~22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.)
Matt5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Romans3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.(=to rightly divide the word of truth=correctly expound). Grace without truth is lawlessness-Jude1v3&4.
zacqt 2 months ago
@rossjpurdy RE: joint citizenship/Paul
Romans11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is *wild by nature*,(=non Jew) and wert graffed *contrary to nature*(=non-equally yoked) into *a*(1 tree) good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the *natural branches*,(=the Jew) be graffed into their own(Jewish) olive tree?
11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved:(=all believers=Gen17v4 many nations)
Not all geographic Israel but all who are seed of Jacob-now-called Israel(Gen32v28).
zacqt 2 months ago
@zacqt Rom 11:26 refers to all Israel, it does NOT say all believers.
The olive tree refers to the special place of privilege Israel had with God. That was due to God's choice, not anything inherent in their ethnicity. The idea is access to blessings of which Israel was to be the conduit. They are temporarily set aside but will be restored and will properly minister to the other nations in the kingdom.
rossjpurdy 2 months ago
@rossjpurdy RE Romans11v26 And so all Israel shall be saved:... Israel is the name of the elect>Abraham(father of many nations), his son was Isaac, his son was Jacob>Gen32v28...Thy name shall be called no more *Jacob, but Israel*:... . Gal3:29 And if ye be Christ’s, *then are ye* Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.
v11...through *their fall* salvation is come unto the *Gentiles*,... v13 For I speak to you *Gentiles*, v15...reconciling of the *world*,...(not just the middle east)
zacqt 2 months ago
Ephesians 2:19 mentions "the household of God" with which us Gentiles in the body of Christ are joined. I understand this as a broader grouping which includes all saints of all ages. So there is definitely a continuity to be observed along with finer distinctions. Those identified with the body of Christ by the one baptism 1Corinthians 12:13 and Ephesians 4:5 are unique.
rossjpurdy 2 months ago
"Church" is really a broad term and always needs to be qualified. Christ said he was going to build HIS church. I take that statement of possession as a qualifier. It begins with the Christ and He owns it. As Paul says, "the church, which is His (Christ's) body." So Moses does not qualify as a member. In Hebrews 12 right after the great cloud of witnesses, we find mention of "the general assembly and church of the firstborn" which is composed apparently of all the past saints, including Moses.
rossjpurdy 2 months ago
@rossjpurdy RE:"Church", I believe the church, the temple & the body(of Christ) are all one & the same.>John2:19~21 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy *this temple*, and in three days I will raise it up.{i will build my church/temple, He spoke of His body}. Not built with hands-Mark14v58.
In Hebrews3v1 High Priest,v6 whose house are we,v7To day, v8 as in...wilderness:(acts7v38the church in the wilderness). Same Master/spirit of both early & late church lCor10v1~4.-/-Luke 24:27...Moses...
zacqt 2 months ago
@zacqt I just discovered that I can reply to individual posts!
So you agree that Christ's church begins/is built by him after His resurrection?
Again, "church" is a generic term and we can not assume it is a technical designation for the same thing every time we see it. In Christ's body church, is there anyone who is not sealed by the HS unto salvation? No, all are sealed. In that church in the wilderness, how many of them were true believers? Only three! Not the same!
rossjpurdy 2 months ago
And what about the "churches" in Acts 19:37? Are we to understand these as "Christian" churches? What about the "ecclesia" in verse 32 and 39. The term church must be qualified or different churches will be confused and conflated. I am not denying the continuity of the different groups of believers all of which will eventually be under Christ one way or another, but their distinctness must also be recognized as well.
rossjpurdy 2 months ago
@rossjpurdy RE:" Christ's church begins/is built by him after His resurrection?"
Hmmm, The "church" has "inner & outer courts"/The body has many members.
1Cor10v1~4... v3 And did all eat the *same spiritual* meat;
v4 And did all drink the *same spiritual* drink: for they drank of that
*spiritual Rock* that followed them: and **that Rock was Christ**.
Did Moses enter the "promised land"?. What of Acts5 Ananias & Sapphira were they "sealed"?. Rahab(a non-Jew) Ruth(a Moabite) both justified by JC.
zacqt 2 months ago
@zacqt Christ did say He WOULD build His church did He not?
Again, I agree all redemption is through Jesus Christ, there is continuity in that. But Scripture has made distinctions: inner vs outer court.
1Co 10:5 KJV 5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness. So not all of them (most all except 3) were not saved. Those before Christ came were rewarded for their faith and looked forward to reward. But they did not enjoy what members have.
rossjpurdy 2 months ago
@rossjpurdy RE Matt16v18...That thou art Peter(means rock or stone), and upon this *rock* I will build my church;... . To lay rock in a "building" you need a foundation. Christ is that spiritual foundation Rock.~The same Rock mentioned by Paul in 1Cor10v1~4....for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that *Rock was Christ*. > Acts7v38 ...church in the wilderness John2v19....Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.~v21But he spake of the temple of his body.
zacqt 2 months ago
@rossjpurdy, cont... .the old & new testament church is made one. Hebrews13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever. John10v16...and there shall be *one* fold, and *one* shepherd. >Eph4:4There is *one* body, and *one* Spirit, even as ye are called in *one* hope of your calling; 4:5 *One* Lord, *one* faith, *one* baptism, 4:6 *One* God and Father of all, ... .
In the theoretical "future-1000year-rein?", do you really think Christ will tolerate animal sacrifice for sin?.
zacqt 2 months ago
I agree that dispensationalism has a fundamental flaw in maintaining a wide gap between Israel and the church. Yet, a distinction is to be made between Israel as a nation and saved Israelites who are part of the church. Neither should the church be confused with Israel as some kind of replacement for it. The church is NOT "spiritual Israel," nor the bride, nor the "new Israel" or some such nonsense. That would merely be accepting an alternate popular belief system!
rossjpurdy 2 months ago
@rossjpurdy Do you agree Moses is part of the same church as true believers today?-lCor10v1~4. /+Eph4v4~6 1body 1faith 1 spirit 1 Lord 1 baptism.
It is my view, that gentiles are grafted into Israel>Romans11v17(1 olive tree not 2), The church doesn't replace Israel, but i think the church is called "the Israel of God". Gen32v28/Galatains6v16. Gen17v4(+26v4) outlines the boundaries of the church./=Gal3v7,8&29
I'm always willing to be corrected with scripture but not the philosophies of man.
zacqt 2 months ago
@zacqt See my comments above regarding church.
rossjpurdy 2 months ago
Also, if you listen to any disp, plan B as Otis calls it is presented as plan A. The "If the Jews had accepted it..." question is always hypothetical and accounted for by God's sovereign knowledge and plan. God planned it exactly as it played out from before the foundation of the world. God knew and saw that the Jews would reject it. Otis does no one any favors by creating a false caricature of Dispensationalism.
rossjpurdy 3 months ago
@rossjpurdy Either way the fundamental problem with dispensationalism is scripture doesn't support it. I think a lot of people grew up just excepting a "popular" belief system. Scripture clearly shows God only has one people. John10v16...and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd. Act7v38... the *church* in the wilderness... .lCor10v1~4 And did all drink the *same spiritual drink*: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that *Rock was Christ*. Eph2v19... fellowcitizens.
zacqt 2 months ago
If you are going to critique a movement At least bring it up to recent history please! The current position would be better! Is it too much too ask for someone who is going to characterize a movement to do their homework? Otis did not do his homework and creates a straw-man.
rossjpurdy 3 months ago
Why doesn't this gentleman interact with mature dispensational material written in the last 70 years? Better yet, the last 20 years. He rather interacts with ancient and primitive writers that are for the most part thought of as quaint by current dispensationalism. He also falsely paints the old disps as arminian! They were all calvinists ... who if any disps quote or follow this Blackstone and Gordon fellas? Even DeHaan has been dead for 45 years!
rossjpurdy 3 months ago
What do you believe happens when you die friend?
Reformer64 5 months ago
If the Jews would have accepted Jesus as their King, He would have to be sacrificed at the temple first instead of the Cross.
And we believe the church age was hid in God, a mystery(Eph3:5) so that Satan would not try to prevent Christ's resurrection. The disciples didn't even understand(Luk18:32-34) and Jesus didn't even begin teaching it until Mark 8:31.
In every Dispensation there is Grace... or else mankind would not exist. :)
Just addressing the things that bothered me, haha.
SingularlyAbby 5 months ago
Comment removed
selviskk 11 months ago