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From: ewatchmandotcom
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  • "Jeff Durbin argues with two jehovah witnesses"

    @ewatchmandotcom please watch this video^

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  • @ewatchmandotcom hi, just wondered if you had time to answer my question on what it would take to convince you that Jesus is God? I'm only asking because you seem like a reasonable person who thinks about their faith. Thank you

  • @junglehappiness I could never be convinced that Jesus is God because I know he is not. Jesus is the son of God. Do you know any sons who did not originate from a father? Why are you convinced Jesus did? Jesus prayed to God and repeatedly called him "my Father." Why are you convinced that God isn't really Jesus' father?

  • @ewatchmandotcom I will answer your question if you answer mine. I do believe Jesus is the Son of the Father. I believe these titles to relate to role, not natural sonship. No-one believes that.

    Please answer my question: what would convince you? I understand you don't beleive Jesus is God. Clearly you don't believe because of the lack of evidence. Therefore, what evidence is lacking that would convince you? If Jesus was God, what would the Bible need to say to evidence this?

  • @junglehappiness There is no reason to believe God is merely pretending to be a father to himself. That is nonsense. Total nonsense. Just made up bull crap. So, no. I would never accept such foolishness and pretend that it was the truth. Jehovah is a real father to Jesus. If he is not than neither is God a father to anyone else, because as Jesus himself called him "our father."

  • @ewatchmandotcom Please answer my question. What would convince you?

    E.g. I don't believe in purple rabbits. Yet if one knocked on my door I would consider this evidence convincing. Likewise, what would it take to convince you. I'm not suggesting that evidence exists. Simply, what would it take? I must also stress that neither you or I believe that Jesus has a 'real Father' in the natural human understanding. These titles describe role.

  • @junglehappiness Essentially you do believe in purple rabbits, even though I am quite certain one has never crossed your path. Your belief that Jesus was merely pretending to be the Son of God is just as absurd as your purple rabbit, yet you "believe."

  • @ewatchmandotcom Please answer my question. What would it take to convince you that Jesus is God?

    If the thing required to convince you is not present in the Bible, then you are right not to believe. For example, if the Bible would need to explicitly say that "Jesus is Almighty God" to convince you, then tell me.

  • @junglehappiness Yes, then, the Bible would have to be totally rewritten. As it stands the notion that Jesus is God is totally unbiblical. It is only made to appear to be supported by the Scriptures by the efforts of clever conmen who prey upon the ignorant.

  • @junglehappiness If you are interested I have produced a YouTube video on the Jesus/Michael connection and also written an article on the BELIEFS page of my website.

  • @junglehappiness First, I do not owe you anything. Secondly, I am not going to waste my time trying to explain something as involved as the Jesus/Michael connection in this tiny comments box, especially since, like I have already told you, I have explained it elsewhere in detail. If you really were interested you would consider it.

    As it stands all your past few comments are being flagged by YouTube as spam. I wonder why...LOL

  • @ewatchmandotcom I read your article, but that is not what I'm after. I'm after a verse that states Jesus is Michael. No such verse was contained in the article.

    The standard you demanded for the deity of Christ was an entire re-writing of the Bible to contain explicit verses yet you are willing to accept the watchtower teaching without any such evidence.

    John 1: the Word was God

  • @junglehappiness You are attributing words to me I did not say. And by the way, Jehovah's Witnesses do not reject the deity of Christ. Before the Word became flesh he was a god - a deity. But unlike God the Word had a beginning. Read Rev 3:14. The God created a god, an exact representation of his very being. Being a god takes nothing away from Jesus. But making him God Almighty certainly takes away from Jehovah, which is why the Devil so vigorously pushes his trinity fraud.

  • @ewatchmandotcom Im not attributing words to u. I asked if an statement such as "Jesus is Almighty God" would convince u and u said yes. Please answer my question: Which verse convinces u that Jesus is Michael?

    I shall answer yours. Rev. 3:14 calls Jesus the Ruler of God's creation not the beginning. Calling Jesus Jehovah doesnt takes away from Jehovah if Jehovah is Jesus. Jesus is not called a god, but God. I say that as a Greek speaker. The text cannot be translated otherwise.

  • Something as important and the identity of God and His nature would not be left for humans to determine later. Jesus was, is and will always be the SON OF GOD... never is he called GOD THE SON. Is He begotten? Yes. Is He the Word of God? Yes. Is He Lord? Yes... God himself made Him Lord. The words of the apostles bear witness to that. "Let the house of Israel know that GOD has made him (JESUS) both Lord (greek word means Master, Owner) and Christ."

  • @edualym You people are ridiculous. 'misrepresenting the eternal sonship of christ"? What sort of cow crap are you trying to shovel? An 'eternal son'... does that mean he does not have a father? Explain this. Come on. Be the first. Don't make me use the word ...you know? bull shit?

  • @ewatchmandotcom you know the sorry thing is you try and tear down a theology which is obvious you are ignorant to. i said you dont have to believe. but at least know what you are talking about when you disagree with someone elses theology. you obviously have not done your homework. if you pm me i will be glad to send you some resources for free then you can continue your hatred of the trinity. at least you will understand their position. you dont know it well so you falsely represent it.

  • @ewatchmandotcom Apparently you did not understand what I wrote. Not once did I use the term ETERNAL about the relationship between Jesus and Jehovah. For the Bible does not teach that. When I say that Jesus was, is and will always be the SON OF GOD it means since His being begotten, created (pick your choice... trinitarians seem to think those two terms mean different things).

  • Im curious if Jesus is not God, What do you make of Isa 42:8 When God said: "I am the LORD (Jehovah), that is my name; And My glory I will not give to another......." In John 17:5 we see Jesus speaking and He says: "And now, O Father glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was." So we see God shares his glory with no one, Yet Jesus claims to have shared that same glory.

  • @oncearound2000 You take certain statements out of context and make doctrines out of them. Obviously Jehovah does share his glory with Jesus. You quoted the very verse where Jesus asked God to glorify him. But you jump to the irrational and illogical conclusion that Jesus was talking to himself, asking himself to share his glory with himself.

  • @ewatchmandotcom You state that "Jehovah does share his glory with Jesus", great we agree on this. I just want to know how you rectify the verse where Jehovah says he does NOT share His glory with another. Do you see the conflict here?

  • @oncearound2000 Jehovah does not share his glory with any other. But read the Isaiah verse again. In that text He equates His glory with his worship. The meaning of the word GLORY is different when in the context of Jesus' prayer. Jesus is clearly talking about the heavenly glory that he shared by virtue of living with His Father and in His Father's bosom. Verse 3 of that chapter Jesus specifically calls His Father the ONLY TRUE GOD.

  • @ewatchmandotcom no. he is not saying that jesus and the father are the same person like you say. the son is talkining to the father. two different persons in this dialogue. the trinity is 1 being of god in 3 persons. beings and persond are different catagories. you can choose to believe what you want but please state the others sides possition correctly.

  • @jtimmis Of course the son is talking to the Father. But trinitarians do not really believe Jesus is the son. You see in the real world sons come from fathers. I the Devil's churchoid, funhouse of mirrors, the son of god isn't really a son of God. In the wacko world of the trinitarian the Father and son only pretend to have a father/son relationship.

  • @ewatchmandotcom thats not what you said earlier. you can choose to believe whatever you want and that is fine with me. but you are misrepresenting trinitarian theology or you dont really know it. trinitarians believe in the eternal sonship of christ. the father has always been the father and the sos the son. not what you say. if you want to deny trinitarian theology at least represent what it really teaches and not what you dont know it really teaches.

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  • @ewatchmandotcom out of interest, what would it take to convince you that Jesus is God?

  • @junglehappiness Why would I want to be convinced of a lie? I love the truth. You probably believe in Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny too, right?

  • @ewatchmandotcom I was serious. What would it take to convince you? What would the Bible have to say?

  • @junglehappiness Out of interest, why hasn't the Bible convinced you that Jesus is God's servant? Perhaps it's because you listen to demons instead of the speakers in the Bible.

  • @TheGenuineChristian I'm sorry but that is slanderous. You don't know me or what I believe so to claim I listen to demons is unwise.

    But rather than answer my question with a question. What would it stake to convince you that Jesus is God?

  • @junglehappiness The Bible convinced me that Jesus isn't the Most High God so what do you think it would take? A new bible where heretics like you erase entire books and replace them with Trinitarian jibber jabber?

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  • Im just a simple man, but I have no problem grasping a Trinity concept. We could even think of ourselves in a trinity sense. 1...a conscience,,,,2 a subconscience...3 a physical body of existence. I dont exactly farm out my thoughts, my dreams and my actions to a gang.

    I actually have a more difficult time understanding JW perception of the Good Lord.. Doesnt really seems to be in character or the actions of an immutable, omnipotent, Holy Father.

  • @tonysshadow I bet you believe in the Easter Bunny and Santa Claus too. LOL

  • @ewatchmandotcom you know I've watched your videos a lot lately and one of the main things I've noticed about you is your condescending, elitist tone. This is such a huge problem among JW's. You believe Watchtower doctrine with such resound that you scoff at those who don't. Its really sad.

  • @cpitt617 I believe the Bible and I scoff at fools who presume to know the truth, as anyone would who knows the truth.

  • @ewatchmandotcom But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, 'Raca,' is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell. You might wanna watch who u calling fool buddy!!

  • Pearl Trees Of Life [a vast Biblical resource tool]:

    [3w dot] pearltrees [dot com] [forwardslash] awhn

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  • For what it's worth, the Trinity doctrine is a dying doctrine. I've observed what we could call a strong belief whittled down to a rickety argument as bible knowledge has taken off over the yeas. And that's exactly what happens with false doctrines they get pressed against the scripture(they fall apart). And so now, we are left with a few diehard's posting apologetic YT.

    But is it working?

    Obviously not!

    The truth continues to tear-away at these false doctrines and leaving them to rot.

  • That's why oldest manuscript of "Torah" is Leningrad Codex (written in 11th century AD) !

    so our oldest manuscript in your eyes didn't get wrote till 11 century wow man

    u are so dumb lol i am gonna end talking to you,

  • Even if we ignore the evidence and assume that Jesus was killed on a cross, should it be venerated? No, for Jesus was executed as a criminal, like the men impaled alongside him, and his manner of death misrepresented him in the worst way. First-century Christians would not have viewed the instrument of his execution as sacred. Venerating it would have meant glorifying the wrong deed committed on it, the murder of Jesus.

  • also 1. Torah was written in 11. century Ad. The oldest script is still today known as Leningrad Codex - and it is located in "New Jerusalem" = Russia it self

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  • You JWs are all the same!

    Romans 10:2-3

    For I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge. Since they did not know the righteousness that comes from God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness.

  • @lsavalla

    when Jesus was baptized, God's voice from heaven said: "This is my Son, the beloved, whom I have approved." (Matthew 3:16, 17)

    Was God saying that he was his own son, that he approved himself, that he sent himself?

    No, Jehovah the Creator was saying that he, as the superior, was approving a lesser one, his Son Jesus, for the work ahead

  • @lsavalla

    Jesus cried out: "My God, my God, why have you deserted me?" (Mark 15:34) To whom was Jesus crying out? To himself or to part of himself?

    Surely, that cry, "My God," was not from someone who considered himself to be God. And if Jesus were God, then by whom was he deserted? Himself?

  • @lsavalla

    Jesus stated: "But of that day or that hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, NOR THE SON, but only the Father." (Mark 13:32)

    Had Jesus been the equal Son part of a Godhead, he would have known what the Father knows.

    But Jesus did not know, for he was not equal to God.

  • @lsavalla

    At Hebrews 5:8 that Jesus "learned obedience from the things he suffered."

    Can we imagine that God had to learn anything?

    No, but Jesus did, for he did not know everything that God knew.

    And he had to learn something that God never needs to learn—obedience. God never has to obey anyone.

  • @lsavalla

    Paul said: "God exalted him to a superior position." (Philippians 2:9)

    If Jesus had been God, how could Jesus have been exalted, that is, raised to a higher position than he had previously enjoyed? He would already have been an exalted part of the Trinity. If, before his exaltation, Jesus had been equal to God, exalting him any further would have made him superior to God.

  • I absolutely agree watchman; very well said.

    

  • 1 cor 10:9 they used Jehovah in place of Lord but i ask u do you know what word was used in the original manuscripts and what the proper translation should be

    Xristo/v and translated should mean christ messiah or anointed Son of God

    so why put Jehovah?

  • @chrisandstaci Xristo or XPCT-os was Slavic "pagan" (Vedic) god Hrstna (which is in Sanskrit known as Krishna). Xpct means "enliven one" or "incarnated god" - Xopc (Hors) - which was in later After Diluvian Egypt known as "Heru" or Horus". Horus is fake son of Osiris(indian demon Asura or Bakasura = Greek Byzantine Bacchus) which became new "Yah" over his MessuYah (Egyptian word for "giving birth to --- yah" ) - Messiah Moses = Osiris's priest (source: Manetho). Osiris is KRST. In Byzantium

  • @chrisandstaci was word derived as "Xpct-os" or Krst-os - new Bacchu's Horus = Christ Jesus...

    Everything about "jews" is pure occult lie - the same is their site Yahoo.com = Yahweh.com

    So who is "Yhwh" anyway? It was always forbidden name of "god" for semites. Why? Because there is not "jewish " god behind it, only Slavic ancient pagan "gods" of material realm; Vaal or Veles (Ba'al) and Hors (Horus)

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  • @VendPrekmurec Ur comment just is plain stupidity please if you are gonna comment maybe have a few brains when answering a question

  • @chrisandstaci phahaha. Yes my brains do not come from jews...So you claim that "Christ" has no pagan background? Then you are a pure moron

  • @chrisandstaci MORON! HORUS = JESUS = OSIRIS'S KRST = KRIST-OS !

    

  • @chrisandstaci your "YW" is forbidden word! Never forget this Semitic troll

  • @VendPrekmurec are u even saying anything that makes sense we know that some people thought that YHWH was a divine name and shouldn't be said sure we know that so what,s your point the original Question i put was about 1 scripture and u go rambling on i guess thats what people do when they can't answer it

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  • @chrisandstaci There is no "god" behind that name and please follow your Osirian faith. It has NOTHING to do with Semites, nor their god. PERIOD. It was NEVER their "god". Why? Because it is a pantheon of Slavic Vedic -Venetic(Phoenician - Venitian) "pagan " is a mockery Gods of material realm.

    That's why you still do not know this.

    The truth is over other side of the wall

  • @VendPrekmurec well for 1 Osirian faith is not christianity and if u want to talk scripture i have NP in doing so

    but what would your religion be if u think christianity is this Osirian faith that is well known to be Egyptian

    and not of Christians

  • @chrisandstaci dude, read Egyptian historian Manetho about "jews" or better said Hyksos and about "Exodus" (which also never existed). Read Flavius Manetho - google it. Hope that semites still did not removed the site.

    Modern occult "history" is telling about Moses as a "pharaoh". But was he? Read it !

    All this occult nonsense cale directly from Egypt (over Coptic Osiris Levitic school) - Moses was Osiris's priest.

  • @chrisandstaci also what is the centrum of Vatican? Osiris's phallus. "new Yahweh" (but this name was also stolen) = Osiris =Bacchus = Bakasura = Ausar = Ashur = Assur = Asura

    "Lord of the dead"... that's why the symbol is also a serpent. Osiris was a real person BTW. Ask Indian Brahmins (also notice that Abraham means A'Brahm or Anti Brahman -he also came directly from India (SARAswati) as priest of dark cult of Kali Ma(cult of Eve) - cult of mass sacrife of humans & animals and cult of Asura

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  • @chrisandstaci Christianity is adaptation of "pagan-" " lets say"( for your better understanding) old Faith (of Genotheism) and Vedic Church (pre Torahic / Biblical) in Byzantium, which was compiled as a Matrix to cult of Osiris (in Egypt) - in Byzantium...then also OFFICIAL Christianity started (where also 1. Torah started). Byzantium was old Jerusalem and new Rome, new JeRUSalem started in Russia...

    That's why oldest manuscript of "Torah" is Leningrad Codex (written in 11th century AD) !

  • Indeed it's a fact this confusion about "two lords" and "Jesus is God" must give great pleassure to Satan who wants nothing less then people to forget all about the divine LORD Jehovah God. distracting them with false teachings. I am so glad i at least learned the TRUTH about this issue, and so many others for that matter. Thank you for your wonderful clear explainations!

  • My father which gave them me is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my fathers hand. I and my father are one. St john 10:29-30

  • Ya'll should read 1corinthians 11:3

  • If you really want to believe that Jesus is NOT God and furthermore actually believe the NWT to be a sound bible then your making My God to be a LIAR!! If you want to know why hit me up at Drummerboy628@aol.com

  • then Jesus Christ should be our role model then. The reason why he came down to earth is to pay for our sins, follow his 2 important commandments and that was to love Jehovah God his father with all our heart, mind, and soul. Second commandment is to love one another. The last one is to preach the good news about his kingdom (Jesus Kingdom). To love God Jehovah is to obey all his will like Jesus did when he was on earth. The only religion that I know who follows the footsteps of Jesus are the JW

  • @raqyrose

    Same here

  • This guy explained really well, really clear, excellent actually that Jehovah and Jesus are not the same. I never believe in Trinity. I know a lot of people believed that Jesus Christ is the true God and that him only we should only worship. If he is the true GOD, why was it his disciples asked Jesus how to pray and Jesus showed and says to them  'Our Father who art in heaven etc.... right? who was Jesus referring to as our father? meaning we should only pray to his father Jehovah through him.

  • about you're title.. you are entering into the divine rights.. that's not the main issue of the true Gospel and the good news.. why Jesus came here on earth.. 1. Love God above all things with passion 2. have faith in Him-everyday 3. repentance - of sin 4. believe - continuous 5. hate sin-every now and then 6. continue to grow in Holiness 7. live in the fruit of the Holy Spirit found in Galatians 5:22.. 8. read the Bible everyday (it's the real message that people must have individually)
  • that's the only conclusion I can draw up lol 0.30

  • that's the only conclusion I can come up with to lol

  • ►Makes sense to me. { :

  • @twross712 it do make sense but not only that Jesus was not always refereed to Lord he was refereed to as Prince a Prince is not Lord Jesus was not always a King he became King after his resurrection for doing Jehovah's will that why in the bible it says that God allowed Jesus to have life in himself no one gave Jehovah anything

  • Ewatchmandotcom- totally agree, but I use several translations, NIV, NKJV, KJV and the NLT and compare them! I believe that ur NWT falls under ur statement! 2 John 1:9-10, Hebrews 13:9, 1 Timothy 6:3-5....... I'm DONE!!!

  • jesus did die on a cross.john 20 25 thomas wanted to put his finger where the nails were..read it nails (PLURAL)

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  • Gen 1:1 in the beginning God (ELOHIYM-Plural form of GOD) created the heavens and the earth. Gen 1:26 "and GOD(ELOHIYM) said(amer- which is singular) let US make man in OUR image.(Elohiym amer) means 3 said it in ONE VOICE!!! New World Translation is a book that was written by a bunch of watchtower peps that know no Hebrew or Greek. The JW do not believe in the active power of the HOLY SPIRIT so how is the NWT a translation, what scroll was it translated from. OR is it another Joseph Smith deals

  • Its the BLOOD of EMANUEL that saves us, the BLOOD OF GOD WITH US, the BLOOD OF THE LAMB that was slain before the foundation of the earth REV 13:8, If you dont believe Jesus Christ is apart of God then how are you saved, by your works? EHP 2:8-9 for it is by GRACE through FAITH that you are saved and not by works lest any man should boast.

  • Its JESUS' blood that saves. the JW doctirne is not sound (NWT)Rev 7:9 it says "and i looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the LAMB. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands saying salvation belongs to our GOD. Why do JW say only 144000 can go to heaven b/c John saw a multitude in heaven around the throne praising GOD with palm branches

  • you are incorrect about them all being in heaven

    144,000 go to heaven to rule as kings with christ

    the rest are BEFORE THE THRONE is the bit you are wrong on because the Greek word BEFORE THE THRONE is this ἐνώπιον Which means "IN SIGHT OF"

    thats the answer so only 144,000 go to heaven and the survivors of armageddon are the ones IN SIGHT OF THE THRONE who will have the prospect of living forever ON THE EARTH

    question.

    Are you and every person on the earth in sight of that throne right now?

  • @judgerutherford -- First off it doesnt say anywhere in rev. that the 144,000 are goin to be kings in heaven! Its says that before the judgments are poured out on the earth there is a seal placed on the 144,000 foreheads V-3! and the 144,000=12,000 from each of the 12 tribes of Israel Vv 5-8! the Multitude in white robes are already before(in the presences of) GOD on Throne. Read revelation 7 from any Bible except the(NWT) and study it with your own mind and let the HOLY SPIRIT have HIS way.

  • @jmicrogers

    YES IT DOES Revelation 20:6

    but they will be priests of God and of the Christ, and will rule as kings with him for the thousand years.

    This is nothing to do with israel in the middle east, this is HEAVENLY JERUSALEM

    HEAVENLY MOUNT ZION

    GODS THRONE IS IN HEAVEN AND SO IS THE NEW GOVERNMENT MADE UP OF 144,000

    We are now in the prescence of god but we are not in heaven are we

    this is very easy to understand a child could understand this with do difficulty at all

  • @jmicrogers

    Revelation 20:6

    they will be priests of God and of the Christ, and will rule as kings with him for the thousand years.

    Revelation 1:6

    and he made us to be a kingdom, priests to his God and Father

    Revelation 5:10

    and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings OVER the earth

    Revelation 14:3

    the hundred and forty-four thousand, WHO HAVE BEEN BOUGHT FROM THE EARTH

    Cant be any clearer than that can it

  • Emmanuel from Isa 7.14 does not mean jesus is god with us

    Jesus came in his fathers name JEHOVAH,.. Jesus was never called Emmanuel after he was born was he? He was called Jesus. Jesus represented his father much like an ambassador does by doing what the sender wants, Jesus said i come to do not my will but he that sent me... gods word is very simple And Jehovah god never makes things difficult for us,he talks to us like we talk to our children tell your child he is a trinity of three children

  • @judgerutherford A true prophet ISA said The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, andd will call him Immanuel . Matthew 1:23, "The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel"--which means, "God with us." The Bible is the truth dont argue with me. Tell God how you feel, He can help you.

    God's word is very simple your right, its your milk when you are a babe. BUT when you age and are seasoned you begin to eat meat!

  • @judgerutherford

    My child says why did He say he was One God and now you're saying he's three?

    Even the children know better than that.

  • @SmalltimR

    there is one god JEHOVAH

    his son is a mighty spirit person but NOT GOD

    There is not a third god

    god is no trinity

    jesus said at Mark 12:29

    Which commandment is first of all?”

    Jesus answered: “The first is, ‘Hear, O Israel, Jehovah our God is one Jehovah

    THATS VERY CLEAR ISNT IT

  • @SmalltimR

    I would never say god is three, you cant trick me i have been taught by jehovah god.

    god is ONE

    JEHOVAH IS THE LIVING GOD

    JEREMIAH 10V10

    But Jehovah is in truth God. He is the living God

    WHAT DID SIMON PETER SAY?

    MATTHEW 16V13 In answer Simon Peter said: “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”

    THATS EASY TO SEE jesus is the SON of the living god JEHOVAH

    Is that hard to see?

  • FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD

    if you do not preach the good news and tell others you will be blood guilty so works alone cant save you,but faith in Jehovahs word that Jesus is not god and telling others THE TRUTH about the kingdom,hellfire,the trinity etc all must come from gods word, if you tell lies and have faith that wont save you, jesus called his slaves and asked them about the mina's each had, the one that did nothing with his mina was classed as wicked and claimed he believed in Jesus

  • DARBY BIBLE GENESIS 2v4

    These are the histories of the heavens and the earth, when they were created, in the day that Jehovah Elohim made earth and heavens

    In Genesis 1v26 Jehovah Elohim was talking to his master worker THE LOGOS

    Proverbs 8V22-31

    "Jehovah sovereignly made me—the first, before he did anything else

    I was brought into being a long time ago, well before Earth got its start

    Before Mountains were sculpted and Hills took shape,I was newborn

    Day after day I was there,

    WHO IS THIS?

  • @judgerutherford- Read the context! Its talking about wisdom. Proverbs are poems written by the wisest man who ever lived, Solomon! Its definitly not talking about Jesus! Seeing how it refers to wisdom as a HER in the beginning of ch 8. Jesus was a man or a HE!

    Gen 1:26 doesnt say anything about a master worker! It says let US make man in OUR image! not let YOU(MASTER WORKER) make man in MY image.

  • @jmicrogers

    so you are saying solomon was there with god from the beginning, you are mistaken this is talking about the same person mentioned at genesis 126

    And God went on to say: “Let US make man

    Here jehovah god is talking to the same person mentioned in proverbs 8v30 then I came to be beside him as a master worker

    this scripture is nothing to do with a poem or solomon because it tells you this person was made before the earth was made, so you are saying solomon lived before in heaven then

  • @jmicrogers

    jesus as michael asthats his real name was with jehovah from the start, in fact jesus was created by jehovah and this shows jesus is NOT god or jehovah, jesus was used by jehovah to create things, jesus had a beginning jehovah never, jesus said his father is greater than he was,so if jesus is god are you saying he is greater than himself, you make fun of gods word, even if god were to speak to you you would still pick out the bits you dont like and call him a liar

  • @jmicrogers

    who is the MASTER WORKER

    Please tell us

  • @jmicrogers who is the master worker mentioned there, its not a poem is it is this a poem too Psalms 110:1 The utterance of Jehovah to my Lord is: Sit at my right hand Until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet. WHO IS SITTING AT GODS RIGHT HAND IF ITS JESUS THEN JEHOVAH IS SITTING ON THE LEFT OF JESUS Very easy to understand
  • @judgerutherford

    Jesus!

  • @jmicrogers

    Plural = God and Jesus :)

  • I understand your points but I still think your missing somethings I dont think your seeing the bigger picture. Heb 1 God enlists worship to the Son yet Luke says that only God is to be worshiped. Emmanuel means God with us. Rev 1:18 uses the title first and last peviously used only for God For the Son. John 8:58 and 8:24 are seemingly Large hurdles for your position plus the us our statments of Genesis 1:26 Angels dont create so who's He talking to?

  • With all that being said, you still have to reconcile who is the Lord of Lords. According to Deut 10:17, Yahweh is Lord of Lords. Well, according to Rev 17:14, the Lamb (Jesus) is Lord of Lords. So, are there two different Lord of Lords, or is there only one? If Jesus is Lord and God is the Lord of all Lords, that would make God Jesus' Lord. Okay. Now, if God is Lord and Jesus is the Lord of all Lords, that would make Jesus God's Lord, right?

  • Jesus and Jehovah are the same creator. They both claim to have created everything. *I am Jehovah, who makes ALL THINGS, ALONE, BY MYSELF(Isaiah 44:24) *ALL things were made BY Jesus (John 1:3 & Colossians 1:16) The three persons of the Triune God (Godhead) took subordinate roles to each other in order to fulfill their redemptive plan for man. When Jesus humbled Himself and became flesh, He was fully man. That's why He said things like "The Father is greater than I" In Heaven they are equal.

  • @DeeStinger1

    RE: They both claim to have created everything.

    False, everything comes from one source "only" however, everything comes "through" Jesus.

    Try researching the information.

  • @SmalltimR

    where did jesus come from and where did god come from,you should know this

  • You think people who are indoctrinated in the trinity have lost their ability to reason, yet you fully 100% believe there is an invisible, undetectable man in the sky meddling in reality who convicts you for thought crime.

    Pot, kettle, black.

  • Why is Jesus worsipped if he is not God? Jesus said worship only the Lord your God. Matt 28:17

  • @TheSunShinesbyGrace That is the wrong question. The more relevant question is: Who did Jesus worship? Can you answer that correctly? If you can, then the answer to your question will become evident.

  • @ewatchmandotcom Jesus worshipped his Father as you know. However, Jesus also said "That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father."

    John 5:23. It is not a wrong question by any means. Why did Jesus receive worship if he was not God? He should have rebuked them or redirected them like the angel did to John in Revelation. Every knee will bow to Jesus (Phil 2:9-11)

    Now read Isaiah 45:22-23 where every knee and tongue will confess to the LORD.

  • @TheSunShinesbyGrace So, Jesus worshipped the Father. And the Father commanded that all honor his Son. So, I think you have it figured out. Jehovah is God and he has placed his son upon his throne and requires all to obey and honor him the same as they would Jehovah. It isn't really all that difficult now is it.

  • @ewatchmandotcom Your tone is very patronising. If it was that simple there were not have been so many councils and debates about such issues throughout the ages by greater minds than ours. Jehovah is God, and in Jeremiah 23:6 the branch from David (Yeshua\Jesus) is called) he shall be called, "THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS" ie which is capital L-O-R-D. Jesus is Yahweh\Jehovah. He is called it. Heb.1:8 Jehohvah calls Jesus God. Why?

  • @TheSunShinesbyGrace The truth is simple. Men and demons make it complicated. That is because the world is run by the Devil. As regards Hebrews 1:8, You are working off of a bad translation. Jesus calls Jehovah the only true God. God does not call his son God.

  • @ewatchmandotcom There you go again - a "bad translation." How easy it is for you to claim bad translation in order to refute what the inspired Word of God says. I have read the Bible and I have read many JW publications and studied openly with them. How can you not see that Watchtower doctrine is a different Gospel than the one Paul taught? Just read what Paul taught.

  • @ewatchmandotcom It's not the men and demons per se. It is the doctrines of men that make it complicated. If you believe that there are two separate Lords, it becomes confusing to understand which is which and who is actually THE LORD of LORDS!!!! But, when you recognize that Jesus is God manifested in the flesh, it makes perfect sense on how they both can be Lord.

  • @ewatchmandotcom Working off a bad translation, the The KJV and NIV are BIBLES translated straight from Hebrew OLD and Greek NEW. The KJV is from a 6th century manuscript and the NIV is from a 2nd century manuscript. The NWT that you JW use is a bad translation. Nathan Knorr, Albert Schroeder, George Gangas, Fred Franz, and M. Henschel wrote the NWT. In 1954 Fred Franz was asked in a Scotland court room to translate GEN 2:4 into Hebrew and he couldnt do it.

  • @jmicrogers LOL

  • Comment removed

  • @ewatchmandotcom1John 1:1, John 17:5, John 17:11, John 17:22 Rev 13:8, 1 Peter 1:20...... The HOLY BIBLE speaks for itself!!!

    I pray that the HOLY SPIRIT move upon you and opens your mind to the truth and your heart to receive it!!!

  • @jmicrogers Can you pleae translate this for me without looking at a translating guide

    אֵלֶּה תֹולְדֹות הַשָּׁמַיִם וְהָאָרֶץ בְּהִבָּרְאָם בְּיֹום עֲשֹׂות יְהוָה אֱלֹהִים אֶרֶץוְשָׁמָיִם׃וְשָׁמָיִם׃ וְשָׁמָיִם׃

  • @jmicrogers That is truly laughable. It does not matter what manuscript translators worked from if their minds were corrupted with false doctrine

  • @ewatchmandotcom Actually, God commanded all to worship the son. The same greek word for worship used in Rev 4:10 as it relates to God is used for Jesus in Heb 1:6. You can't apply a different meaning to it just because you don't agree with it. Plus, if you don't honor the Son the exact same way you honor the Father, you aren't honoring the Father at all.

  • @TheSunShinesbyGrace

    if you go into a court of law ,what does everyone do when the judge walks in?, would you show the judge honor by sitting down?

    if another judge comes in who is not as powerful would you still show him honor by sitting down, or would you show them both honor and respect by standing?

    They are not the same persons are they?

  • @judgerutherford Every knee will bow to Christ, just as every knee was said to bow to Jehovah/Yahweh in the OT in Isaiah. Both are worshipped as God throughout Scripture. God said he created the world alone. Yet it was made through Christ. They are different persons, yet both referred to as Jehovah. This is why the doctrine of the Trinity was formulated. Three persons, one God. Different roles. Christ was not the Archangel Michael (read Dan 10:13 - Michael was one of many chief princes)

  • @TheSunShinesbyGrace

    The trinity is false and of satans design yes all knees will bend to jesus because jehovah has given jesus authority, jesis is Not jehovah as the bible clearly shows who jesus and jehovah clear are FATHER AND SON, thats the son who has a father, when god talks to us he talks so we understand not confuses anyone with silly talk like im two persons in one, only satan would come up with a stupid thing like that,

    jesus is NOT Jehovah the bible wipes the floor with your theories

  • @TheSunShinesbyGrace

    Dan 10:13 shows michael standing up for his people, please tell all why he stands up for people if he is in heaven with god?

    if you check the bible you will see that jesus mis the one that stands up during the time of destress THE GREAT TRIBULATION

    Easy to see that so easy from gods word

    if michael is a formost prince then he will be FORMOST KING as this is what happens to a prince he becomes a king

    yes jesus is king of gods kingdom and will stand up very soon

  • @TheSunShinesbyGrace

    DANIEL 12

    And during that time Mi´cha·el will stand up, the great prince who is standing in behalf of the sons of your people. And there will certainly occur a time of distress such as has not been made to occur since there came to be a nation until that time. And during that time your people will escape, every one who is found written down in the book And there will be many of those asleep in the ground of dust who will wake up

    Who is this talking about

  • @ewatchmandotcom You side stepped the question. The same Greek word for worship is used in both Matthew 4 and Matthew 28. It is used bothed toward God, the Father and Jesus, the Son. Yet the NWT translates the word obesiance in Matt 28 and other scriptures where the worship refers to Jesus. Talk about a bad translation - NWT takes the prize for that.

  • @ewatchmandotcom You still have to answer the question of WHY is Jesus worshipped.

  • @TheSunShinesbyGrace

    jesus did not say that

    he said

    mark 12v29

    Jesus answered: “The first is, ‘Hear, O Israel, Jehovah our God is one Jehovah, and you must love Jehovah your God with your whole heart and with your whole soul and with your whole mind and with your whole strength.

    jesus used the name jehovah NOT LORD as he was quoting the scripture found in the hebrew scriptures and that said jehovah NOT LORD

    Deuteronomy 6:4

    Jehovah our God is one Jehovah

  • @judgerutherford ""And they went out and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them and confirming the word through accompanying signs." Mark16:20. If what you preach is confirmed by signs and wonders of God's healing, delivering and supernatural power then you can confidently affirm what you believe. Every JW I have chatted to have head-knowledge but very little manifest power or experience of God to share. Anyone can study and argue. Tell me your experiences of God that affirm your words.

  • Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel, and his Redeemer the LORD of hosts; "I am the first and the last; besides me there is no god."

    Jehovah speaking.

    Now cross reference Rev. 1:8, Rev. 22:13. If you doubt it's Jesus sppeaking see Rev.22:20. Jesus takes on the title "I am the First and the Last." Jehovah's name as above.

  • @TheSunShinesbyGrace

    Jesus is Not the alpha and omega in Revelation 22v13 because it was already established who this was in REV 1v 8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says Jehovah God

    DANIEL 7V9

    “I kept on beholding until there were thrones placed and the Ancient of Days sat down THIS IS JEHOVAH

    someone like a son of man coming; to the Ancient of Days he gained access, brought him up close even before that One.to him there were given Rulership and kingdom REV 11v15 fulfills this

  • DANIEL 2 V 44

    And in the days of those kings the God of heaven(JEHOVAH) will set up a kingdom

    REVELATION 3 V 21

    “The kingdom of the world did become the kingdom of our Lord(JEHOVAH) and of his Christ, and he will rule as king forever and ever.”

    Jesus is the Christ and Jehovah is the God of heaven, it is this God the ancient of days who gives Jesus the kingdom as it belongs to him, Thats why Jesus called it GODS KINGDOM.

    So it was Jehovah God who crowned Jesus king of this Kingdom in 1914

  • @judgerutherford How did you come to the date of 1914 though?

  • @shmily646

    watch?v=Gmuk1nggZok

  • @judgerutherford

    I don't know what you mean by this "watch?v=Gmuk1nggZok". Are you wanting me to watch something or what?

  • Sir, have you ever read the book called "Christ is God" written by Witness Lee?

  • Gen. 1:26 say "Let us make man in our image; after our likeness..." And in John 8:58,59 Jesus says "Before Arbaham was, I am" "I am" means self-existent one meaning He was not created but He always was. LIke in John 1:1-3,14. And Rev. 1:8-11 says He is the biginning and the end.

    Also what does Ps. 138:2 specifically part b mean

  • I am trying to reason with you here. And use your same logic. Just as my wife and I are ONE and my 4 sisters and 2 parentsand I are all ONE family. God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit make up the ONE True God (family) of tehe universe.

  • If you please look thes verses up also and compare them and let me know also.

    Who is Jesus? Isaiah says He is God (Isa. 9:6), the angels say He is God (Matt. 1:21), Thomas said He was God (Jn. 20:26-28). What do the Jews say in (Lk5:21; Jn 1:33)? And what does the Father say in ( Heb. 1:7-9). What did Jesus Himself say when comparing these verses. (Jn. 8:58,59; Ex. 3:14) "I AM" means self-existent one which is used in both verses here.