Apostasy in Islam

[yahya114]

One must wonder why there are difference views about this big thing. One must wonder if this is a great religion comes from the true god, then why is this god is so stupid into making a verse that paints a very bad picture for apostates. One must wonder why is this god great if he allows so many stupid things happens to this religion?

[GregorEzpo]

The interesting thing here to me is that you say that only when someone apostates and THEN wages war against Islam can be killed. However, since Islam blankets ll aspects of life in countries that accept it as law, the people interpreting the law can use this however they see fit. Unfortunately many of those elders in Muslim nations deem any non-Muslim to be an 'enemy' of god. I have nothing against Islam, but it is sad that the truth is your book is vague enough to be read in such violent ways

[markbrads23]

I tried watching this video as I was advised by a Muslim to educate myself, however, 4 minutes in I got so sick of hearing the words 'peace be upon him' every second sentence that I gave up.

Which raises another question.

Why does a liar, murderer, rapist and paedophile have the right to have peace wished upon him?

[peppersdog1]

islam the chosen religion of the turd

[robaby1984]

Did you know that the Ottoman Empire abolished the penality of death or even any penality for Apostasy in 1850s and Al-Azhar concurred? Google: Fathima Bary Needs to Read Her Bible; Final Word on Islam and Apostasy

[ozzycda]

@robaby1984 I did, that information can be found in the article I posted in the more info section of this video under the loonwatch link.

[sulyman751]

@ozzycda ''APOSTASY'' this is one of the subject the Christians trying to demonize and exploit the Muslims to win over converts, but they them selves don't know that in the Bible it gives a clear verdict on this issue '''DUET 13 6-18'' .

[AmyPie97]

I went to the Shafi'i fiqh books in Arabic, & they don't say that if the apostate is peaceful, he shouldn't be killed. Rather, it states the killing of those who are known to have apostated . In Reliance Of The Traveller, the context doesn't say that if the apostate fights against Muslims, the penalty occurs. That section is next to the waging war section, because both are under the same topic of justice, not because the apostate cannot be killed, unless he attacks.

[AmyPie97]

You said Umar didn't kill apostates. Firstly, just because you might have absence of evidence that he killed apostates, doesn't mean that is evidence of absence. Secondly, even if he didn't kill apostates, that doesn't matter, because Umar (and Uthman) agreed that the apostate should be killed. I can quote sources right from the Arabic if you want. Also, you mentioned no classic scholar that disagreed with the penalty.

[ozzycda]

@AmyPie97 If I recall the rest of my evidence for this video is the more info section, the drop menu. Thanks.

[captwasabi]

Sayyid Abul Ala Maududi, Afzal ur-Rahman and many other noted MODERN scholars of Islam all agree that death for apostasy is condoned by the koran. Moreover, in Sahih al-Bukhari it clearly states that the blood of a muslim can only be spilled for three reasons, one being when someone "reverts from Islam and leaves the Muslims." Again, you can flail away denying this but the governing documents of Islam are against you.

[ozzycda]

@captwasabi Thats true there are scholars that do view Apostasy in that way. However as a clearly show in my video I have classical and MODERN scholars that do not view simply Apostatizing on a personal level warranting capital punishment. I don't see how I failed in anything, I am showing another point of view on this topic which has valid arguments from both "governing documents" and scholars. Thanks for your comment.

[Hammersley1967]

"I would have killed them according to the statement of Allah's Apostle, 'Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him'.'"

Sahih al-Bukhari:

Volume 9, Book 84, Number 57

[Hammersley1967]

"The blood of a Muslim who confesses that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that I am His Apostle, cannot be shed except in three cases: In Qisas for murder, a married person who commits illegal sexual intercourse AND THE ONE WHO REVERTS FROM ISLAM (APOSTATE) AND LEAVES THE MUSLIMS."

Sahih al-Bukhari:

Volume 9, Book 83, Number 17

[Hammersley1967]

"...for the Prophet said, 'If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him.' "

Sahih al-Bukhari:

Volume 4, Book 52, Number 260:

[IRENIGMA888]

123 verses in the quran talk of fighting and killing for allah, violent religion - end of story.

[BangladeshiAgnostic1]

Volume 4, Book 52, Number 260:

Narrated Ikrima:

Ali burnt some people and this news reached Ibn 'Abbas, who said, "Had I been in his place I would not have burnt them, as the Prophet said, 'Don't punish (anybody) with Allah's Punishment.' No doubt, I would have killed them, for the Prophet said, 'If a Muslim discards his religion, kill him.' "

[ozzycda]

@BangladeshiAgnostic1 Again thanks for posting this, but as you can see from the user that posted the SAME EXACT HADITH, I have already discussed this in the video and dealt with it.

[BangladeshiAgnostic1]

@ozzycda One question why do you lie for Prophet, do even what he done? he prove the rape of women, he prove of lying

Volume 4, Book 52, Number 269:

Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah:

The Prophet said, "War is DECEIT."

[BangladeshiAgnostic1]

@ozzycda Volume 4, Book 52, Number 270-1:

Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah:

The Prophet said, "Who is ready to kill Ka'b bin Al-Ashraf who has really hurt Allah and His Apostle?" Muhammad bin Maslama said, "O Allah's Apostle! Do you like me to kill him?"affirmative. Muhammad bin Maslama said, "Then allow me deceive." The Prophet replied, "I allow you."

[ozzycda]

@BangladeshiAgnostic1 I have discussed this hadith in a video entitled "Muhammad and Poetry" and "Death to Poets?"

[BangladeshiAgnostic1]

@ozzycda So, Muhammad bin Maslama went to him (i.e. Ka'b) and said, "the Prophet) has put us to task and asked us for charity." Ka'b replied, "By Allah, you will get tired of him." Muhammad said to him, "We have followed him, so we dislike to leave him till we see the end of his affair." Muhammad bin Maslama went on talking to him in this way till he got the chance to kill him.

[ozzycda]

@BangladeshiAgnostic1 Again please see both videos regarding poets and poetry in relation to Islam that I have done, it explains the historical situation of this hadith.

[BangladeshiAgnostic1]

@ozzycda Tell you what I will leave you alone. Believe what you want to believe and I'll believe I want, I really don't mean to get you angry! Well bye!

[BangladeshiAgnostic1]

@ozzycda Yes but I don't believe anything your saying because I know Muslims can lie

Sahih Bukhari, Volume 3, Book 49, Number 857:

Narrated Um Kulthum bint Uqba:

Volume 4, Book 52, Number 269:

Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah:

The Prophet said, "War is deceit."

That she heard Allah's Apostle saying, "He who makes peace between the people by inventing good information or saying good things, is not a liar."

[BangladeshiAgnostic1]

@BangladeshiAgnostic1 Yes but I don't believe anything your saying because I know Muslims can lie

Sahih Bukhari, Volume 3, Book 49, Number 857:

Narrated Um Kulthum bint Uqba:

Volume 4, Book 52, Number 269:

Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah:

The Prophet said, "War is deceit."

That she heard Allah's Apostle saying, "He who makes peace between the people by inventing good information or saying good things, is not a liar."

[ozzycda]

@BangladeshiAgnostic1 I have done a whole video on the concept of Taqqiya in case your interested, since you are accusing me and all Muslims of lying. Also if you think I am just one big lier then why are you wasting my time and yours by watching and commenting on my videos. Also why are you not bothering to actually examine the evidences I have provided instead of just assuming that I am lying? Is it easier to call me a lier then do research for yourself?

[BangladeshiAgnostic1]

@ozzycda Why do you take interest in christianity, atheism, judaism,, etc if you don't think their belief aren't the truth? Even AmedQuran3's video if he is lying according to you THEN ACCUSE ME WATCHING YOUR VIDEO? I WILL LEAVE YOU ALONE NOW!

[senja71]

Misunderstood subject???

"...Whoever changed his islamic religion, then kill him!"

(Bukhari vol. 9, # 57)

Zaid B. Aslam reported that

" the Apostle declared that the man that who leaves the fold of Islam, SHOULD be executed"

( Muwatta of Imam Malik # 1410)

[ozzycda]

I talk about this Hadith in the video, perhaps listening to it would benefit your understanding of the subject, also looking at the articles to the right of the right as well.

[berenjervin]

WTF? You can listen to real islamic Imams defending the death sentence for apostasy.

And if you are really up for it, there are clips of people being executed for it on the internet.

So, put down your crack pipe dude. And if you are so gong-ho on islam, head on over to a real islamic country and live your dream.

[Abbodine1]

You're a fucking putts. What I would love to see is you moving to an Islamic country, waking up and leaving Islam and then having your fucking head cut off for it. I think when the sword first connected with your neck would be when you'd finally know that, yes, Islam does kill those who leave Islam. There's no saving the dumb

LOSER!!!

[Aryanaian]

You have heard alot of Richard Dawkins my friend. And like you are say that some videos are trying to deceive people you are doing the same thing? You´ve been watching too many manipulating video of muslim converting to christianity. and then complaining about being tortured

[DantehMan]

Lack of belief is not a belief. In the absence of something there cannot be that same thing.

Please quite being a dick and insulting others for thinking/speaking differently than you. It's very pretentious and not conducive to enjoyable, relaxed discussions.

[DantehMan]

No, we don't believe, and to say we do is wrong and ignorant.

Atheism is the complete lack/refusal of a belief in a supernatural being/deity: a god. If you do not believe in a god, then you cannot be said to believe.

Please stop spouting nonsense. Oh, and the onus of proof is on the believer, not the skeptic.

[lumpagogo]

Sin:

gods say what Homo Sapien put in their mouths. Take a look at any bible or KORan, it was printed in a shop same as any other book. Printed and written by peoples, same as you or Joe The Plumber and/or Muhammed 'AL-eee. Religion = man-made. It's merely puffed up Humanism so "apostasy" = zip.

[lumpagogo]

There's no such thing as: "apostasy" in any religion because Mr. God (thousands of individ gods) has revealed nothing to Homo Sapien. Self-appointed god-experts know nothing about gods. Just as an ignorant peasant knows zero, neither does the PhD. It's man says god says, not the reverse.

[lumpagogo]

The Koran preaches merciless punishment in this life and the "afterlife" for all non-believers, from beginning to end. Read eet.

[itcrowdfan92]

Your may now know the Islamic contextual history:

1400 years ago, apostates were some of the rich hypocrites (Arabs) decided to join with the Pagan Arab tribes to fight the Muslims and END ISLAM, purposely.

These apostates left Islam, to RUIN ISLAM, 1,400 years ago for their own selfish reasons, and rejected peace treaties, and were NOT innocent.

This is why Muslims HAD to fight for their justice and against these hypocrites, who continually rejected peace treaties, and tried to end Islam.

[lumpagogo]

Hi crow:

Our problem is that Mohammed invented, created Allah. That's how all gods came to 'be'. Allah never spoke to Mohammed because gods are make-believe, are just-pretend. Gods do as they are told--by mere men, not the other way around.

[itcrowdfan92]

What do you mean?:

"Mohammed invented, created Allah."

Muhammed was NEVER a God, he was only a human.

In fact, God existed before Muhammad was even born.

I don't know where you got that information from..

[lumpagogo]

Gods never existed, are only names on pieces of paper. We made them--they are literary characters. They are neither visible nor invisible. They can not:

Listen

see

speak

think. They can't hear prayers; they can't do anything.

[psychlopes1976]

"Allah never spoke to Mohammed because gods are make-believe" - and what is your proof of that? Just the fact that you believe that is the case doesn't make it so. before you state your ideas as facts, please share with us how you intend to prove your claim.

[lumpagogo]

The burden of proof is on you believers, psycho-76. Atheists neither believe nor dis-believe. We know only that gods never speak or make themselves known. It is mere Homo Sapien who tell everybody what their particular gods 'want' or are doing. But, there is never any objective evidence, just a lot of shouting and screaming: "Allahu Akbar." Allah is not saying it---you are.

[psychlopes1976]

The burden of proof lies with the one who makes the claim, I would be that person if I'm trying to convert you to Islam by way of claiming that God exists. But you're the one who started this dialog trying to get me to believe God doesn't exist, so the burden of proof lies with you.

[lumpagogo]

I can prove no god has ever spoken to me in an audible voice--I can prove that neither President Martin Van Buren nor President Abraham Langston has ever spoken to me in an audible voice.

I can't prove that a god, Martin Van Buren, or Abe Langston have never spoke to you but I know that they haven't and so do you.

[psychlopes1976]

Lame...

[psychlopes1976]

Muslims don't claim that God speaks to them, that is something only Christian claims, and it has more to do with schizophrenia if you ask me. You have no grounds for claiming that there is no God other than the fact that you don't "believe" there is a God. That isn't a proof , so stop pretending as if you're the enlightened one, if anything you're the one in total darkness.

[psychlopes1976]

You can prove God doesn't exist; the minute you produce life from something that isn't alive. when you do that, you would have proven your point, before that you're not proving anything, you're just using sarcasm, which is one of the weapons of the weak and feeble minded.

[lumpagogo]

psycho--you are a bore. Who created the Creator? Who designed the Designer? There are many thousands of separate gods. Let them prove they "exist"---they don't need puny Homo Sapien for that.

You Moslems can keep up your campaign of violence against the rest of the world and against each other, Sonnie vs Shy-yte. You are proving everyday that you and Allah are the lowest of the low.

[psychlopes1976]

The lowest of the low are people like you. Who have only empty statements without any kind of proof to offer in his argument, our proof of the existence of God is the Quran. And only someone as ignorant as you don't realize its divinity. If there's an ignorant peasant here, its the one who thinks he knows everything there is to know in the universe enough to claim that he knows for a fact that God Doesn't exist. You're pathetic.

[DantehMan]

You're pathetic for considering a two-thousand year old book with no scientific basis written by people stupider than we are now as "proof" of a supernatural being. Hey, I just wrote "The Flying Spaghetti Monster" exists on a cocktail napkin. THIS IS A DIVINE AND TRUE SIGN OF THE FSM!

It is wrong to claim knowledge that a god doesn't exist, but wrong to claim knowledge that it does. Both sides are wrong because there is no absolute proof.

[psychlopes1976]

"Atheists neither believe nor dis-believe" ... what a load of B.S. if you don't believe in something then you're "disbelieving". If you refuse to believe that God exists, then you're disbelieving in his existence. Atheists do believe that there is no God, or they "disbelieve" in the existence of a God. No matter who cliche it sounds, its true,

[Hammersley1967]

@psychlopes1976

"if you don't believe in something then you're "disbelieving". If you refuse to believe that God exists, then you're disbelieving in his existence."

You REALLY haven't thought that through have you?

You have made a VERY embarrassing error of logic and category.

What you wrote is a text book "non sequitur". I suggest you look that word up and rethink your appalling scribble of irrationality.

BZZZZZZZ!!!

FAIL!!!

I don't suffer fools gladly.

Go back to elementary school.

[psychlopes1976]

@Hammersley1967 - So you're fabulous logical response to what I said was a resounding "HUH!"... good for you, I see you didn't add anything to the conversation except for sarcasm. Very intelligent on your part! And really, can you be any more childish in your style of writing? You're simply saying "What I say is right, because I say it's right" And then you have the audacity to call me a fool??? LOL

[Hammersley1967]

@psychlopes1976

"you're fabulous logical response to what I said was a resounding 'HUH!' "

Nope.

I understood EXACTLY what you said and I understood EXACTLY the implicit logical and categorical fallacy in your flawed argument.

"I see you didn't add anything to the conversation except for sarcasm"

Actually, I did add to the conversation by pointing out your error of logic and category. If you can't realize this, then you are an even bigger intellectual cripple than a initially took you for.

[Hammersley1967]

@psychlopes1976

"You're simply saying "What I say is right, because I say it's right" And then you have the audacity to call me a fool?"

No, if you read what I actually wrote (TIP: slow down and read CAREFULLY), then you would see that the essence of my comment was "YOU are wrong. Reread your comment and let's see if you can spot it"...

Not only can't you spot your OWN error of logic and category, but you can't even comprehend my simple comment.

Therefore, yes... You are indeed a "fool"...

[psychlopes1976]

@Hammersley1967 - LOL, There you go at it again, I'm telling you there's no logical fallacies or errors in what I said, and "non sequitur" has noting to do with what I said. So Mr. idiot, instead of pointing at what you want to say with your finger, just come right out and explain yourself. Don't mistake yourself for and intellectual just because you know how to make fun of an argument with nonsense and appeal to the readers' sense of humor instead of common sense.

[Hammersley1967]

@psychlopes1976

"there's no logical fallacies or errors in what I said, and "non sequitur" has noting to do with what I said"

Wrong again psycho... How many times is that now?

You say that an atheist is someone who refuses to believe that god exists and therefore they believe in the nonexistence of god.

This assertion is an ill-thought out non sequitur. Pure and simple...

And the sad thing is, you STILL can't see it. I doubt very much that you even know what the word "non sequitur" means...

[psychlopes1976]

@Hammersley1967 - "I doubt very much that you even know what the word "non sequitur" means.." LOL, you assume too much, I know all the logical fallacies and how atheists love to twist them when discussing matters of faith and lack there of with theists. You by the way are using Ad hominem the minute you started replying to what I said.

[psychlopes1976]

@Hammersley1967 - In any case, my point, which you soo idiotically still fail to see, is that you have not proven that my statement is non-sequitur just by claiming that it is. You haven't proven that my conclusion doesn't follow from the premise.

[psychlopes1976]

@Hammersley1967 - A non-sequitur would be something like,"You don't believe in Capitalism, and therefore you must be a communist." Because then I'd be assuming that communism is the only alternative to Capitalism. But saying that when you don't believe in the existence of something means that you believe in it's non-existence is just simple logically correct paraphrasing.

[Hammersley1967]

@psychlopes1976

"But saying that when you don't believe in the existence of something means that you believe in it's non-existence"

And therein lies your non-sequitur...

To be fair, I think I understand why you can't see it...

The fundamentalist's world view is one of polarities...

If one doesn't believe that something exists, then one must believe that it DOESN'T exist...

Do you see how those two premises don't follow?

(It's much better that YOU come to this understanding yourself...)

[psychlopes1976]

@Hammersley1967 - Logically speaking, there are only two states for the "belief" in the non-existence of God. And you either believe in the non-existence of God or do not believe in the non-existence of God (i.e. you believe he exists). So which one are you? There is no way around it. You're one or the other. strip my statements down to their bare discrete mathematics counterparts. It's all by the book.

[Hammersley1967]

@psychlopes1976

[2]

a) I believe there is a jewel in the box

b) I disbelieve there is a jewel in the box

c) Based on the lack of any sensory verifiable evidence, I come to the conclusion that I don't (can't) know if there is a jewel in the box and therefore neither BELIEVE nor DISBELIEVE the existence of a jewel in the box. I am open to the POSSIBILITY that there is a jewel in the box, but I do not PROACTIVELY believe it.

[Hammersley1967]

@psychlopes1976

[1]

"Logically speaking, there are only two states for the "belief" in the non-existence of God"

Therein lies your logical and categorical fallacy.

If you present me with a box and tell me that there is a jewel inside of it, what are there possibilities for my belief (or lack thereof) in there actually being a jewel in the box? Given that I did not see you put a jewel in the box, and that I cannot see into the box, there are no less than THREE possibilities:

CONTINUED IN [2]

[psychlopes1976]

@Hammersley1967 - "I am open to the POSSIBILITY that there is a jewel in the box, but I do not PROACTIVELY believe it." But see, what you just described isn't an atheist but an agnostic, not an atheist. I bring to your attention this out-of-the-dictionary definition of an atheist: "One who disbelieves or denies the existence of God or gods." So, no, an agnostic is open to the possibility, and atheist isn't... by definition.

[Hammersley1967]

@psychlopes1976

[a]

"what you just described isn't an atheist but an agnostic"

True, the term "atheism" in contemporary parlance is quite often used to describe the positive belief in the non-existence of god (EVANGELICAL atheism). Thus, it is reasonable for you to assume that this is the sense in which I am using the term. However this is a semantically incorrect use of the term.

CONTINUED IN [b]

[Hammersley1967]

@psychlopes1976

[b]

TO EXPLAIN:

"A-theism" (A = without / Theism = belief in god [Greek]) literally means "without belief in god" and hence is a term that can refer to both agnosticism and anti-theism.

I think the best way to expound the semantic differentials is:

THEISM = belief in god

ATHEISM = NON-belief in god (anti-theism and agnosticism)

ANTI-THEISM = DIS-belief in god (and/or active opposition to theism)

AGNOSTICISM = neither belief or disbelief in god due to lack of evidence

[Hammersley1967]

@psychlopes1976

Do you understand now?

Atheism literally means "without theism" or "without belief in god". It does not automatically assume that the "atheist" proactively embraces a belief in the NON-existence of god (although some atheists DO proactively believe in the non-existence of god)...

A person who assertively believes in the NON-existence of god would then literally be an "ANTI-theist"...

Thus, the term "atheism" semantically subsumes the both "agnosticism" and "anti-theism"...

[psychlopes1976]

@Hammersley1967 - You have a point with what you said about Anti-theism. This might be were I'm wrong, although generally anti-theism is defined as opposition to "organized" religion and not to the belief in a god per se.

[Hammersley1967]

@psychlopes1976

STILL can't see it?

*sigh*

Keep trying... You'll EVENTUALLY get it...

If you don't, well... *sigh*

[LeavesNoTrace]

.....keep reading the guide book and you'll miss the sights on the tour.

[psychlopes1976]

"keep reading the guide book.."

We're not reading the guidebook, we're reading a map to get to the real, ultimate sight. We're not interested in the pit stops.

[GrandmasterTigerfist]

Muslims have punishment for apostasy Iran have allowed death sentence due to increasing convesrion to zoroastrianism..

[psychlopes1976]

Iran does not practice true Islam, first of all because Shias have added a lot of theology and practices that are not from the Quran or Authentic hadith, and those additions are so detrimental to the image of Islam that many Iranian Muslims tend to think Islam is not logical because of them and convert. But like this video demonstrates, apostates are not killed for simply converting. (IMHO)

[Blasphemer01]

god does not exist

[Blasphemer01]

wow, crap cult propaganda

[fibe79]

Nevermind found in comments thank you

[fibe79]

If you want to be convincing to us *ignorant* it would help if you quoted which passages in the hadiths you and the scholars mention.

[fibe79]

There's no denying that there's big problem with interpretation in the quran on punishment and other things, and it's more than a nuisance to nonbelievers..

Kill whoever changes his religion. Hadith Sahih al-Bukhari 9:84:57

So which hadiths are reliable and which are not? If you can't decide burn them all I say..

"Most Sunni Muslims view this as their most trusted collection of hadith and it has been called "The most authentic book after the Qur'an."

[Spanky00Cheeks]

This is youtube. Post a video, not just audio.

[thinker6236]

reported by `A'ishah, prophet (pbuh) said: "The blood of a Muslim, who confesses that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that I am His Apostle, cannot be shed except in three cases: a married person who commits adultery; he is to be stoned and a man who went out fighting against God and his Messenger; he is to be killed or crucified or exiled from the land and a man who murders another person; he is to be killed on account of it."15

[LoveAsh7]

thanks colin always great researched videos

[dasar123]

"No compulsion in religion"

[LothairLorraine]

I think it is amazing that modern Muslims are now describing al-Tabari as a questionable source. Without his 39 volumes on Islamic history, there would be very little known of the Muslim prophet or his religion.

Bottom line. Islam in the West is trying very hard to re-create their religion, polish the image of Abul Quasyyim [the prophet] and confuse critics. It isn't working.

[ozzycda]

Wow nice distraction Lothair, and what do you mean if we didn't have Tabari we wouldn't know anything about Muhammad. There were plenty of Hadith Collections and Seerah's before and after Tabari so your wrong on that one. Also Modern Muslims are not changing anything, if you actually look at the sources I provided these are Classical Scholars who said that one who just leaves Islam in a peaceful manner will not be harmed. The only one confused here is you.

[LothairLorraine]

Is it me who is confused, or every Islamic nation in the Middle East and around the world which threaten death for even criticising Islam? Somehow, everybody over the last 1400 years got it wrong and it took an American convert to finally set the record straight.

Give me an example of a surviving Sirat that predates Tabari, or a collection of traditions without serious errors.

[ozzycda]

How about Ibn Hishams Seerah Lothair you forget about that one. He was a student of Ibn Ishaq after all, and his Seerah is considered the MOST AUTHETNIC SEERAH.

[LothairLorraine]

I already commented on Hisham, and why his 'life' cannot be trusted. His redactions and ommissions create real suspicion regarding his honesty and the integrity of his writings.

To my knowledge, no copy of Ishaq survives from antiquiy. All we have of him can be found in the pages of Tabari. Correct?

[ozzycda]

Ibn Ishaq's Seerah does not survive correct. Where you are wrong is that it is only found in Tabari's Histories. It is also found in Ibn Hashem's Seerah, and like I have said Ibn Hashem's is considered to be the most authentic Seerah.

[PloughTheSky]

If you want to refute ozzycda's argumentation, as a Christian, you should not forget to compare Islamic scripture to the Biblen which leaves little doubt as to how apostates should be dealt with, except for how they should be executed (i.e. stoned to death or smitten with the edge of sword), as in Deuteronomy 13:1-8, 17:2-7; 2 Chronicles 15:13; Matthew 5:17-20, 15:1-9 and 23:1-3.

[PloughTheSky]

Besides, Christians have traditionally carried out the death penalty for apostasy. Apostates, heretics and sometimes even converts from Islam and Judaism were most of the time condemned to be burned at the stake (or killed in other, more sophististicated ways)

[ozzycda]

Also Tabari HIMSELF admited that his source had things included that were not authentic. And he said not to blame him he is just adding anything he hears. So this is not some new Modern Muslim concept. This goes right back to Tabari himself.

[xingyimaster1987]

what are you talking about, what a stupid thing to say. tabari is not the main source of Islam, it is the Quran and reliable hadith where most knowledge of Islam comes from. Tabari's works did not go through the same validation and authenticity tests bukhari and muslims went through, it has been questionable for centuries along with ibn ishaq's work.

[ozzycda]

lol Devin

[easyonetwothree]

The link of Jamal Badawi is the greatest proof that ISlam doesnt teach Apostacy!

[jtdyman]

please read your koran or ask your iman, he sure understand it better than you.

[ozzycda]

Uhhhh I have read the Quran several times and have asked an Imam about this thanks. Plus none of this is MY OWN WRITING I am quoting scholars of ISLAM, thanks for watching peace.

[Islamat]

Ozzy great video as usual. One thing though. At the end of it at 9:38 you said "if an on Muslim is peaceful he is not to be molested" What kind of image are you trying to give us bro? We do not molest people. Although i have heard rumors about Micheal Jackson converting to Islam so you never know, lol. Anyway great job salaam

[ozzycda]

ahahhahahaahahah YOUR FUNNY. lol thanks bro for the support :D

[HeadDominion]

the proof is in the pudding.....i'll believe you when apostates stop getting killed for leaving islam.

[ozzycda]

Right cuz the actions of some extremist totally represent what Islam teaches. Okay yeah sure.

[HeadDominion]

then why are people being killed for being apostate (especially in Mid east)? are you saying that they (the mid east) are incorrectly practising islam?

prove me wrong: go to the mid east. say you are apostate and see how they treat u.......or are you going the other way and saying that you won't be killed for being apostate - that factually apostates are not killed right now in Mid east?

[ozzycda]

They should not be killing Apostates in the Middle East as I discussed in my video. Only the Caliph as the right to pass punishment on them. No Caliph, no Caliphate no punishing of Apostates.

[Islamat]

Heis going to fly all the way to the Mid East, and spend money just to prove some guy on the internet wrong? The things people say on this site are simply *sighs*. People kill people all the time based on false/true motives. Wake up! Honestly get your self an education and then discuss issues you have no knowledge about. Would you ever take advice about biology from a carpenter? No! So why are you taking advice about Islam from non Muslims. And you wonder why people Hate the USA.

[NegrodamusX]

The better question is there really killing of apostates in the Middle East, or is this the typical zionist propaganda bullshit we hear all too often to demonize the people of the region, who are under multiple client regimes installed and propped up by us.

Dick-HeadDominian is just another politically motivated bigot with an all too clear agenda of dishonesty. "InvestigateIslam" anyone?

[ElusiveAnole]

So death for an apostate is only considered just when the apostate is aggressively going to war with a Muslim community?

I don't know. I'll be honest, I am reading the simple line "Whoever changes his religion, then kill him" and it seems very hard to reconcil from a humanistic perspective. And it seems almost contradictory of Muhammad considering other Hadith attributed to him and repeated sayings within al-Qur'an of free choice regarding worship...

[ozzycda]

That Hadith cannot be used to support the killing of Apostates. Scholars say it is to general. Look at it "Whoever changes his religion kill him", that could be anyone. So I guess when someone comes to Islam they should be killed. Please read the articles I posted in the description area for more information.

peace

[Hammer7972]

ozzy, you stated that apostates are only killed if they "fight against the community". really?. Then explain this hadith: Buk V9B84N64: "During the last days there will appear some young foolish people who will say the best words but their faith will not go beyond their throats (i.e. they will have no faith) and will go out from (leave) their religion as an arrow goes out of the game. So, where-ever you find them, kill them, for who-ever kills them shall have reward on the Day of Resurrection."

[ozzycda]

If you look at what the scholars say about this Hadith the group in question will cause evil in the land and that is why they must be stopped. There are other Hadiths that talk about them in more detail. That they will come from the east, and cause issues for the Muslims. Plus it is referring to a group in the last days, right around the time when the Dajjal will come and cause many people to leave Islam and join him.

[Hammer7972]

please show me the hadiths that says that these 'young people' will cause "evil in the land." thanks

[ozzycda]

It is obvious if you understand what is going to happen in the last days from an Islamic standpoint. Do some more research and read the articles I posted and the videos for more info on this subject. Also again it is a fact this Hadith is not used to figure out Sharia Law, period end of discussion.

[ozzycda]

Also this group is mentioned many times in many Hadiths, since you found this one I'm sure you can find the others.

[ozzycda]

On and Hammer I found it interesting that when I googled the hadith u quoted from Sahih Bukahri the only websites that went into detail about it were hater websites, who have no real information on Islam, they were the only ones talking about this Hadith......hmmmm interesting.

[ozzycda]

Oh here you go Hammer check these Hadiths out according to scholars these are all talking about this group:

Volume 9, Book 84, Number 68

Volume 9, Book 84, Number 69

Volume 9, Book 84, Number 67

It is evident from the above that they were killed because they fought against the Muslims.

[Hammer7972]

the three hadiths you cited do not seem to make ANY specific connection to the 'young foolish people' i cited above. in fact, hadith Volume 9, Book 84, Number 67 which you cited specifically refers to muhammad's time when he revealed a quranic verse. 'And among them are men who accuse you (O Muhammad) in the matter of (the distribution of) the alms.' (9.58)

the evidence you cited isn't sufficient.

[ozzycda]

I just told you scholars view these hadiths as referring to these young men. The evidence in my video, the articles and the other videos are enough evidence to prove this point.

[ozzycda]

Also I just told you that this Hadith is not used in Sharia Law at all, period end of discussion.

[ozzycda]

Also it is no mistake that ALL OF THESE HADITHS are grouped together and talk about the group who's faith will pass away like an arrow etc. They are talking about these same group of people.

[ozzycda]

Plus this Hadith is not cited by any scholar to be used for Sharia Law, since it is fortelling the future events and not about Sharia.

[ozzycda]

Again there is nothing in Islam that says just to kill someone because they leave Islam I have provided the evidence that proves this.

[xingyimaster1987]

mate, this hadith is clearly a prophecy of the end of times when the world will be a very evil place. this is in no way stating what muslims must do now. as muslims we believe the world will plunge into darkness before the day of judgment and as muslims we are ordered to fight the evils of dajjal, gog and magog and the above mentioned hypocrites. the problem here is islam haters and the ignorant alike try and interpret the hadith without any knowledge or understanding.

[islamiclife]

I like your videos brother but I disagree with your views in this video. The view that an apostate should only be killed if he/she goes against the Islamic State is a weak opinion. Also, the whole argument against apostasy is a subjective argument. Muslims need to remember that we're here to please Allah Ta'ala not people. So, please let's not distort the teachings of Islaam or present weak/modern views to justify Islaamic teachings for the sake of making non-Muslims feel good about Islaam.

[ozzycda]

I don't understand what you mean by weak/modern views. The evidence I presented is based on Quran, Hadith, the Caliphs, and the Classical Scholars. Use a modern scholar wrote the article I quoted, but the evidence is drawn from the highest level of Islamic Sources.

[ozzycda]

And if you are saying I am distorting the teachings of Islam, then you would have to blame all of the classical scholars that discussed the topic, Caliph Omar and Uthman who imprisoned Apostates but did not kill them. Plus the Prophet never had any of them killed unless they rebelled against the State as I have fully proven.

Peace

[islamiclife]

respected brother, did Dr. Jamal Badawi quote any of the classical scholars-the view of the Salaf (the first three Muslims generations) regarding the hadith in Sahih Bukhari? Among the Salaf Imaam Sufyaan at-Thawri (ra) was the only one who held that view but his stand was against the sahih hadith and the understanding of many of the other classical scholars. Due to lack of time and space to write, I can't present everything. Let's discuss it somewhere else and some other time; I'll pm you,peace

[ozzycda]

He quoted many if you read the articles and watch the videos I posted in the description area it proves it well enough. Also what about Ibn Timiyya who was against killing Apostates along with Caliph Omar and Uthman is that close enough to the first three Muslim generations for you?. And what of the Prophet himself? He never killed Apostates for just leaving Islam look at the Hadiths in question.

[islamiclife]

I simply said that it is a weaker view and it shouldn't be used to prove something. Along with this one there are many other modern interpretation which are commonly used by laypeople in the west.

[ozzycda]

Again this is not a modern view on this subject. Once again watch my video and read the articles in question. They prove that this was the view of the early Muslim community and the Prophet himself.

Peace

[LothairLorraine]

Apostacy is rebellion, and during the conquest of Egypt, Persia and Iraq there were several examples where apostates were killed. Tabari is an excellent source for early Islamic military practice.

[ammir1]

"And he should go and worship other gods and bow down to them or to the sun or the moon or all the army of the heavens, ...and you must stone such one with stones and such one must die."(Deuteronomy 17:3-5)

:)

[NegrodamusX]

Great video, Colin. My understanding is that the laws on apostasy discouraged fake converts like the hypocrites in Medina who pretended to be Muslim while in league with the Quraish of Mecco.

[jtdyman]

according to the koran and tenets does state that apostates are to be killed. only men are to be killed, women are given life in jail. they do get three chances to coming back to islam.

[dinokaiser]

"according to the koran...apostates are to be killed"

Where?

[Aamirsaab]

Dangit, I wanted to cover this topic but you got there first. Oh well - it's probably better that it is in voice anyway (more impact, especially given that it is a rebuttal).

I'd like to include that only 8 people during the prophet's time were given the apostacy death penalty (according to what I read anyway).

[ozzycda]

Thanks for the support. To my understanding no one was actually killed for JUST leaving Islam. It was only when they committed violent acts that resulted in them being punished.

[Aamirsaab]

Yah, that's what I heard on the matter, too. Specifically, it was because some enemies of Islam (at the time) were joining Islam so that they'd get the inside news and then apostate (very similar to treason) But the internet being what it is, never seems to convey the full context of such events...oh well.

Keep up the good work.....and stop stealing all the good topics! :P. Peace out.

[al147316]

Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

John 14:6

[xrami69]

Apostates that change the creed is not to be killed, they will just start paying Jizya(the 'zakaat' of the non-muslims) or they leave the Muslim lands. But anyone who spread corruption and strife between the believers, practice usury and treason against the muslim community is executed.

[AAAhmed46]

Sadly, even mainstream scholars believe that apostates have punishment by death. Which is interesting, because even medieval scholars debated this.

[ozzycda]

And I agree it is very sad that some Muslims actually teach Apostates should be killed but ignore the actions of the Prophet, the Sahahba, but more importantly the Quran.

Peace and thanks for watching.

[debatewithimm]

is it not strange Colins that These Muslims Scholars are neglecting the teachings of Muhammad while giving Fatwas for Killings of Apostates ? Colins Bro ! no offense but when it comes to legal point of view may be world will accept their perspective and not yours ! you have a tough job to do and convince them as these are committed people

[ozzycda]

I don't deny Thomas that some Muslims do go to extremes in their religion and commit acts which go against Islam. This happens in all faith, hence why I know that making this video will show that Islam does not teach this concept.

[getaranjiwaramlee]

I assume there are verses in Bible and Talmud ordering the killing of apostates.

[xiaahmad]

great video bro

[Kite207]

I cant see your face. Why did you cover it? Do you have a zet? LOL!

Anyway, Great video man.

[drgonboyx]

he finally figured out that if he removes his face from his vids, he will get more views. fewer people barf..but we still have 2 deal with his voice though.

[ozzycda]

LOL DBX STHU, go play with your xbox you CHILD. lol jk bro thanks for watching :D

[traitor323]

i gave u thumbs up!

but good job ozzy :)

mashAllah

[debatewithimm]

Treason is quite an stretch to kill some one who left Islam earlier. Because if a Peaceful Apostate who left Islam and then criticize some of its teachings will be considered as treason ?

Its unfortunate that this concept even exists in Islam today or some Muslim belief on it, I heard Dr. Zakir Naik saying almost the same thing, leaving Islam and criticizing Islam is treason and treason mean Death ?? I don't get it.

[ozzycda]

No once again Thomas, READ THE ARTICLES AND WATCH THE VIDEO I POSTED. If one leaves Islam but does not start a rebellion or breaks the laws of the Islamic State, he is not punished. Please go back and listen to my video Again, because your comment, no offense, shows you didn't pay attention.

Peace

[debatewithimm]

My apologies if I was not clear, I was referring a video of Zakir Naik which I watched earlier & in which He said that if someone leaves Islam and Propagate it or Propagate its new religion, is called Treason and punishable by death !!

I was asking a question on this notion that how can some one be liable for death penalty simply he is propagating his new religion ? I don't get it.

Peace

[LetsDebate]

Actually according to the Reliance of the Traveller, a Sunni law manual, apostates are to be killed. There's nothing to be ashamed of in this.

[ozzycda]

Like I said one needs to read those Fatwas in the context like I said in my video. Peace and thanks for watching.

[LetsDebate]

You are right my brother. I just flipped through it and found the context. My humble apologies.

[ozzycda]

No worries at all, that's why it is good for ALL of us to look at the context.

[drgonboyx]

its good to look at context. but its ALSO good to look in the mirror in the morning. that way, you can fix facial problems. lol jk great video i appreciate ur work faved and 5 starred

[AhlulSunnahWalJamaah]

I wrote this comment from my previous channel to be apologetic (to be honest). I take back my view. May Allah forgive my ignorance.

[qabandiman]

Jazakallahu khair brother,

your room is kinda dark couldent see a thing, jk :D

[whatshudmyusernamebe]

thanks bro, clear explanation; indeed it was enlightening =)

[Basel17]

good video