@GODKHaaaaaaN I think the general consensus now is that he was accidentally poisoned by his handlers. Arsenic was a common addition to a number of medicinal tonics that horses were given in those days.
@shantaine2009 I'm pretty sure that this was the game plan, to get him out slow and take him wide to avoid any interference. He didn't just win it... he won eased down in track record time. Imagine what he could have done with a decent preparation & without all of the other things that potentially detracted from his performance?
Part 4 - Lastly, an indication of the actual track condition might be gleaned from the fact that in the following race, Eddie Arcaro (who was considered the greatest US jockey ever when I was growing up), ridding a horse called Wizardly, won in a time of 2:07 1/5.
@bgardiner2000 This is off the subject but I was looking at some harness racing uploads and one of yours came up. Is that THE Mr Feelgood, the Little Brown Jug champion?! When did he get to Australia; shouldn't he be at stud now?
@711ATOM Correct. That is The Mr Feelgood. Isn't he a wonder? He's won just under $4m now and is still perfectly sound. We have a $1m+ series on in Western Australia at the moment and he is in it. Although he's first two runs have been a bit on the average side. Although it is extremely hot here at the moment & some horses find it difficult to acclimatize. Have a look at the latest race, the Fremantle Cup, & you'll see one of the fastest pacers to ever wear hopples bar none. Im Themightyquinn.
Part 3-A better known story comes from the Charlie Whittingham, the Hall of Trainer of Sunday Silence, who wrote in his autobiography "I never got to see Man O'War. I was too young. But he'd have to be a helluva horse to be better than Phar Lap. He won the Caliente race running almost all the way around on the outside fence. His rider was convinced the other jocks in the there were out to get them. He figured the best way was not to give them a chance."
Part 2-Fortunately there were many very eyewitnesses to race and it is clear that Phar Lap's performance was outstanding. The great Johnny Longden, ridding a horse named Bahamas (99lbs.), recalled "I was on a fast horse and I was in front, and I looked back at the three-quarter pole and Phar Lap was about the seven-eighths pole. When I hit the half-mile pole, he went by me like a freight train passin' a tramp. He was in the middle of the racetrack, and he just gallop around."(conti.)
Part1-I think speculating on whether Phar Lap's 2:02 4/5 track record would today equate to a sub 2 min. run on dirt today is a waste of time. Of course it was a very different place and time, but on the minus side west coast tracks were in the past notoriously fast; Spectacular Bid's 1:57 4/5 while carrying 126 on dirt looks mind boggling but it only bettered Noor's record by 2/5 (set at Gold Gate,west coast track, while Noor carried 130). The Bid came close to that time in the east (conti.)
@711ATOM As of 1950 run-ups were used in all American racing. For SB's and Sec's time you can add 1-1.5 secs to allow for the advantage. IMO it's called "cooking the books."
@bgardiner2000 Thank you for response, however I can't agree with you on the idea that American racing is "cooking the books" because that implies an conspiracy to create time records. It's too long to get into now, but absolute time is not regarded as crucial in the US due to of the great geographical diversity of the continent. That is why the Beyer's Speed Figures have become so popular. Please view this posting about Mr. Beyer and Secretariat /watch?v=lJnjRBtAkTk.
@711ATOM While I'm not suggesting that the times are not used absolutely for speed ratings, all American records are in general, 1 to 1.5 seconds faster than everywhere else. I hear so much about Spec Bid's time, which (as an eg) when compared to the time Makybe Diva ran in the 2005 Australian Cup (1:58.73) is a second faster. Once adjusted for the run up where does that leave the time? In terms of ratings it might have little impact but in terms of great time records it's cooking the books.
@bgardiner2000 This is a long subject, I wish I could talk to you rather then write this because writing will take a too much time (and space). If someone is giving you grief about Makybe Diva's time he doesn't know what he is taking about. Due to the unusual geographic diversity of N. America, the dirt tracks from region to region a very different, thus the popularity of speed figures. Spec. Bid's 1-1/4 time, as great as it is, is not held in reverence the way (conti.)
@bgardiner2000 Secretariat's Belmont is regarded. That is because Spec. Bid's record came at Santa Anita; S. California is a desert, it is hard to get good sandy loam there, so S. Anita old dirt track was notoriously fast. Belmont's main isn't called "Big Sandy" for nothing; 2:24 for 1-1/2 on that track is considered impossible (except for Sec.). Hawkster's 2:22 4/5? No one talks about it; grass is inherently a faster surface than dirt, and where did it take place? Santa Anita.
@bgardiner2000 I'll finish (taking up too much space), but Spec. Bid never ran below 2:00 on an eastern track, the new dirt track (replacing the synthetic) at Santa Anita is even faster; in Dec. 2010 Twirling Candy ran 7f in 1:19.70 breaking Spec. Bid's 1:20 track record, they are now adding sand. Churchill Downs is very different from Belmont, Calif. horse never run the same times when the go to Oaklawn, Ark.; I haven't touched the history of run ups, I don't believe they are what you think.
@711ATOM Hi Mate, I understand track biases. But run-ups are a documented part of handicapping in the US. Have a look at the official Breeders Cup web-site on the results down-loads the run-up distances are all shown. Eg., in the Juv Sprint won by Secret Circle in 1:10.52 with a run-up of 100 feet. In that race the time for the opening quarter mile is 20.96s. That is nearly a whole second quicker than Black Caviar has ever run an opening 400m. Yes, the run-up is exactly what I think it is.
@bgardiner2000 Hi, sorry if this seems rushed, its early morning here and I am in a little hurry. Run-up distances are published for all races distances and tracks. Churchill has one of the longest run ups for 6f of any track, it is not unusual for you to see opening first quarters under 22, that is one reason Secret Circle's run is not seen as something special (it was only awarded a 95 Beyers, good but not more). The Factor in a maiden special weight in Dec. 2010 (conti.)
@bgardiner2000 ran a track record 106.98 as a 2yr old! But where was it run, the new dirt track at Santa Anita (the one they're trying to slow). Beyers 102, less than the 103 his sire War Front earned as a 4yr old running 1:10 1/5 at Saratoga 2006 (and I like The Factor). The thing run-ups very greatly for each distance and track (sometimes for field size). The run-up for a mile at Gulfstream is 5ft, I can't remember what it is but Del Mar for a mile (another Cal. track) (more)
@bgardiner2000 is some ridiculous distance. But back to Churchill, only 2 horses have run the Kent. Derby. under 2:00 because C. Downs is slow (and dirt is inherently slower than grass). Sec. has the track record of 1:59.40 and Monarchos ran 1:59.98 in 2001 on a day when everyone agrees Churchill was freakishly fast (Churchill, clay, gets fast when it's very hot and dry, Belmont, sand, get slower!) (little more)
@bgardiner2000 I have to finish now, but to end there is no clear direct correlation between run up and winning time (1 - 1.5 sec. for example). It is trumped by geography, absolute time is always subject to modifiers here, and finally, as someone not among the crazed Secretariat worshipers (Riva Ridge fan) the 2:24 at Belmont in a heat wave (I was going through it then) is impossible! (Enjoy the weekend - got to run).
@711ATOM hi Mate. Like I said, I completely understand track bias & how that works. I think run-ups are the equivalent of letting Ian Thorpe start from back in the change rooms & doing a swan dive over the blocks as the starter lets them go. In '10 Mandurah ran a world record on any surface over 1m at Monmouth - 1:31.23. The elapsed time for the race is just on 1:33, with the difference being the run-up. If they gave Black Caviar a run up of 100ft over 5F she might finish before she starts!
@711ATOM There is a direct correlation between run-up winning time. Of course they will be affected by riding styles & tactics, & a myriad of other factors. But, nontheless, a horse that has ANY speed advantage at the beginning of the race will still be able to run a faster time. The fact that the ru's for the benchmark time records of Spectacular Bid / Secretariat etc. are not available makes me very suspicious of them, as I am for any US time record.
@bgardiner2000 I just got home, watched the Super Bowl, the home team lost. No, I'm sorry but there is no direct correlation, there simple isn't. For example, the run up for 6f at Churchill Down 100ft., the track record is 1:07.55; for Belmont the 6f track record is 1:07 and 3/5; Belmont has no run ups at any distance. The difference? Churchill is slow. 1-1/4 mile record at Churchill is 1:59 4/5 by Sec, run up is 34 ft. (I believe that has not changed since 1973) conti.
@bgardiner2000 Santa Anita has a 50foot run up, pretty close; the track record is Spectacular Bid's 1:57 4/5 (correction Secretariat's time was 1:59 2/5). Spectacular Bid was 4, Sec. was 3, both at 126. No one believes that Spectacular Bid 1.6 faster than Sec. It was the track. The track rec. at Belmont is 1:58 1/5. Belmont has not run up, Monmouth 2:00 4/5 no run ups, Lone Star 1:59.2 by the amazing Ghostzapper, no run ups. There is no correlation, you have to know the tracks.
@711ATOM I only have 1 comment I guess and then I want to drop it... I think there are far more interesting things you & I could talk about. Do you think that a horse over any distance has an advantage if given a run up versus a horse that does not? If we were athletes of similar ability & I started with a run up would I be more likely to win? A la it gives me an unfair advantage.
@711ATOM The Hunter Cup, which is also run on the same night as the Trotters Interdominion Final and the Victoria Derby is run at the Melton track in Victoria. I am all the way on the other side of the country in Perth ;) About 3000 miles away.
@711ATOM What do you know about Sanagas, the Holywood Turf Cup winner? He is to be sent to Australia to be trained by Bart Cummings for a tilt at the Melbourne Cup.
@bgardiner2000 Not a whole lot but I'll give it a try. By Lomitas; formerly owned by Andreas Jacobs (serious money). Sent to the US and given over the Graham Motion (very good trainer - Animal Kingdom). 4 of 5 in Germany but had lots of problems (wouldn't run straight). Improved a lot with Mr. Motion. The race when Sanagas seemed to get it was the Gr.3 Sycamore St., Oct. 20, 2011 at Keeneland. Scheduled 1-1/2 miles, it was rained of the grass and run on Polytrack at 1-5/8. conti.
The change didn't bother him, clean run, 2:39.40, track record but the Polytrack there is pretty new. Partmanners2 has the race posted watch?v=uZ10UDcwwqY. Maybe not in the class of little sister Danedream, but definitely a 1-1/2 mile+ horse. Sycamore & Hollywood taken together suggests improving form. Set for Gr2 San Marcos Stakes (10f Feb.11), Gr2 San Luis Rey Stakes (12f Mar.18), then Gr2 San Juan Capistrano Handicap(14f Apr.22) all at Santa Anita. Looks like a Mel. Cup type.
@711ATOM Yes he certainly looks to have a Melbourne Cup-type background. I think that's secondary though for horses who will undergo such a huge change in environment. It'll be interesting to see how he goes. I see they've spaced his runs to about 4 weeks in the past. He'll not get that with the great Bart Cummings. BC has a theory that a horse needs 10000 meters of racing in his legs to get him ready for a Melbourne Cup. And he would know, he's won 12 of them!
@bgardiner2000 I'll try to reply to your comments little be little (the YouTube robo monitor is mad at me). Just saw the San Marcos, finished last of 6, a disappointing effort by Sanagas but I wouldn't make to much of it, 1-1/4 clearly to short for him. First race in US was at 10F, 7th of 10, 3rd race 11F, finished 4th of 7. 3 wins at 12f or more. New trainer is Peter Miller, for some strange reason he is know 1 for 42 in first races for new horses transferring to his barn (more)
@bgardiner2000 Interesting news, they were interviewing Peter Miller and the American part owner of Sanagas before the race; the owner said that Peter Miller didn't know it yet but in two weeks they were bring up another horse from Argentina (no name given). The partnership is searching the world for Mel. Cup runners. I assume that this unnamed horse will also go to Bart Cummings, but I am not know what the Australian owners are planning.
FYI Saintly won from 6f to 2 miles. And mak diva also won at a mile or shorter I am sure. To win a melb cup you need some sort of speed. Go Black Cav. Along with hay list and sepoy they are easily the best three Aussies since the target to go to ascot. It's gonna be a smash up.
@Racingwriter85 Yes Makybe Diva won a Memsie stakes over 7F in quick time as well as showing she was world-class over 10F with a 1:58.3 win in the Australian Cup. MD's Memsie Stakes win, as well as Saintly's brilliant win in the CF Orr were part of a traditional Melb Cup prep, where they are likely to be able to show some brillance at the beginning of their preparation. Phar Lap won the Lithlingow Stakes (8F) after winning the Cup in 1930. These feats are no longer possible.
@Racingwriter85 The best since the Target? IMO Sepoy and Hay List would be the best to go to Ascot since Miss Andretti... but they've never seen the likes of Black Caviar. Not even Dayjur. JMO.
Frankel the greater ever- I hope so because id love to watch that, but he has a long way to go. Raced out of his own age once (what if it was a weak crop). He needs to continue to continue to improve as he did from 2 to 3 and he could be unbelievable. But he won't get horses running scared when he steps out of England, he will be down and out with a tough run at some stage and that's when he will get the chance to be mentioned with phar lap, secretariat and the like. Can't wait for next season.
@Racingwriter85 Agreed he is a tremendous talent. But I also agree he's got a long way to go. Timeforms rating of him is ridiculous from what he's achieved to date, as impressive as he's been. I think there's a similar situation with Black Caviar. Protecting their unbeaten status will become more important than proving just how good they are.
@bgardiner2000 dont get me wrong phar lap was a very impressive horse but Frankel will be shown to be the greatest ever. Although the versatility of phar lap was impressive, Frankel looks like he will be just as versatile and obviously wins in a more impressive way. Maybe the whole meaning to austrlaians of phar lap made him great, but that obviously doesnt make him more impressive. Funny that i obviously hit a nerve with some people.
@jimbo7what Ur bound to hit a nerve when you compare a horse that carried grandstands over 6-16F & then travelled to the other side of the world, was injured & ran a track record his first ever time on dirt against the best horses the US could muster; with a horse that has run at set weights, ran some dubiously slow times against suspect opposition. Phar Lap won 4 Stakes races in 8 days from 6F to 2miles. Frankel, while impressive, has a long way to go before he's mentioned in the same breath.
I told you i am not ant-Caviar but she is and will not be another Phar Lap. Phar Lap won races over all distances etc as i posted below. Caviar is a champion horse but not a Phar Lap and i doubt even a Tulloch ...
It breaks my heart to see the way So You Think has been mismanaged ..... i agree :) i gotta go mate so let's agree that she is the best sprinter in present day and i believe we have the best horses, race callers and racing in the world here :)
She will never be as good as Phar Lap and true champion trainers do not dodge other horse for fear of being beaten. Moody only wants the winning streak to continue albeit for stud value but Tommy Smith, Bart and many others never dodged other races -- So You Think is a good example and is champion. I'm not against Black Caviar but until she races against the cream of true sprinters and milers, she is not, in my books, a Phar Lap :)
@ripperdingo I appreciate your opinion dingo but don't make the mistake of under-valuing the importance of Black Caviar. This is a mistake that many of our European breathren have already made. I doubt that Peter Moody has dodged any horse to date. What he has done has dodged certain conditions and has not stepped her outside of her pet distance. Any why would you with such a winning formula. Had Phar Lap achieved an unbeaten winning streak like she has I am sure that the connections... Con'td
@ripperdingo would have been much more careful about what races he did and didn't race in. You say she needs to race against the cream of "true sprinters and milers." I'd be interested to hear where you think these might come from? Over the last 15 years ANZ sprinters have been rated as the best in the world. Horses like Choisir, Takeover Target, Miss Andretti, Magnus, Scenic Blast & Starspangledbanner have all competed at the top level very successfully. As a result, when we say that ... Cont'd
@ripperdingo we have a good sprinter, the world takes note. The world-wide bench-mark for sprinting internationally has been for a long time now, the Hong Kong brigade, which have had a long & distinguished list of ANZ-breds at the helm: Silent Witness, Sacrad Kingdom & now Rocket Man. Compare the lines through all of these & Black Caviar & the result will astound anyone who knows what they're looking at. Star Witness ran some great races at Royal Ascot against the best European... Cont'd
@ripperdingo sprinters. Despite missing the start in the King Stand & being weighted as a 4yo @ 3 he nearly won the race. Now have a look at him v Black Caviar in the Newmarket giving her 8kg's. There are plenty of formlines through the international contingent as well. Ortensia, Eagle Falls & Silent Witness have all been competitive internationally & are not even 3rd-tier sprinters locally. Hay List has a higher rating than all of our past sprint stars & we know how he goes against... Cont'd
@ripperdingo her. He is better than any sprinter currently racin, with the exception of Black Caviar. Sacred Kingdom at his peak would probably be a danger. So we can take it therefore that he IS the cream. Look how Bated Breath went in the HK International sprint. She is going to show them something that they have never seen before in the UK next year. Mark my words. So You Think has been completely mismanaged by Coolmore in his European career to date. He should have never lost the ... Cont'd
@ripperdingo PoW to Rewilding & was ridden poorly in the Arc. We've not seen his best yet IMO. Next year he will be fully acclimatized & then we will see the real SYT. Bart Cummings would never have lost had he been preparing him for the Arc and the bristish Champion Stakes.
@ripperdingo I think that Moody was more intending to dodge the unkown in a mile race with some very good mile horses engaged (King Mufhasa, Wall Street, King's Rose, Toorak Toff, Luen Yat Forever etc.). In terms of a sprint value for breeding purposes the schillachi was a much better decision than the Toorak. Make no mistake about it... she is our generation's Phar Lap. She is equine immortality for us to see & experience first hand. We should all should make the most of it.
Phar Lap won races of all distances, won a race at a different distance, including the Melbourne Cup, on each of the 4 race days of the Melbourne Cup that year, carried weight records to victory, won overseas smashing course record time, whereas Black Caviar could have in the Toorak handicap but didn't -- People forget how great other horses are -- Kingston Town won 4 Cox Plates, and won distances from 1,000 metres to nearly 3200 metres when carried 61 kilo and ran 2nd in the Cup.
@ripperdingo Ur right. Phar Lap won races from 6F to the 2 miles of the cup. Staggering performance. It's the type of feat horses no longer achieve in the modern era. It reminds me of Count Fleet winning the Withers stakes in the 2 weeks between the Preakness & the Belmont stakes. Nowadays trainers complain about the 3 week break between the races. Btw Kingston Town only won 3 Cox Plates... and black Caviar never raced in a Toorak Handicap.
I am sick of people saying Black Caviar is better then Phar Lap. Yes, she has beaten some records set by him but he was a SHINING LIGHT DURING THE DEPRESSION, SOMETHING TO BE COUNTED ON, THAT IS WHY HE IS SO FAMOUS, WHAT HE MEANS TO THE PEOPLE OF AUSTRALIA! I am not a hater of Black Caviar, but Phar Lap will ALWAYS be in my favourite boy.
@DarcyLovesPokey I actually think that one of the primary reasons that Phar Lap is so well-remembered today was the circumstances surrounding his untimely death. You could never compare what Phar Lap did with Black Caviar's record. Phar Lap did what horses don't do any more. He won 4 stakes races in 8 days from 6F to 2 miles!! But make no mistake, Black Caviar is our generation's Phar Lap. Without a good understanding of racing it is difficult to fully comprehend just how good she is.
@DarcyLovesPokey : Your comment i could not agree with more ! . If you go to Black Caviar page on facebook racing victoria is asking is Black Caviar better then Phar Lap , Phar lap is winning as he should be but not by much . i'm really quite disgusted that question could be ask , Racing Victoria really should be ashamed its so disrespetful to a horse who save a nation , i hate the question ! PHAR LAP ALL THE WAY <3 he will always be my favourite aswell! :-)
@adele375 unfortunately it's not comparing apples with apples. But make no mistake about it. Your grand-kids will talk about Black Caviar the way we talk about Phar Lap.
lost 8 of his first 9 races and finished with 37 wins from 51 starts. going overseas to compete is very tough to do in any sport- and be competitive- moreso for animals. Phar Lap was one of a kind no doubt. a freak of nature.
@Lukedog7777 ur a kook, phar lap was one of the greatest horses ever but never got to live up to its full potential after it died (under suspicious circumstances) in america
@Lukedog7777 : Lukedog your name explains you Dog your a fucking idoit man go learn something about racing dickhead and um give some example of why Black Caviar would beat this freaking legend
@bgardiner2000 excatly ! same with this other guy i had a argument with he was putting facts that when Phar Lap raced agua he never had a cracked hoof and never was sick and was going on how pathetic he was because a horse the following year beat his record ,I still stand my ground saying if Phar Lap was 100% no sickness no cracked hoof he would've had a more amazing record than he had ,but that guy just hates on Phar Lap comments on all of his videos with false statements ,
@MrWalto69 Yeah well I've heard it all before. It's fairly well documented the issues that Phar Lap had when he was preparing to race in Mexico. I don't think the movie is completely accurate but there is no doubt that connections had a pretty big schedule of racing mapped out for him if he went well in Mexico. According to the biography that I read he only had one really serious gallop prior to the H'cap but was otherwise fairly fit. It wasn't the time he ran but the manner in which he won.
@bgardiner2000 Very few people would have argued that Equipoise at his best would have been able to match PL on the day. But had he been in the race the time would have been considerably faster. He did as much as was necessary to win the race. FYI Gallant Sir who bested his record the following year carried 53.4 kg's compared to the 58kg top-weight Phar Lap carried. I honestly believe that Phar Lap could have run around 2 mins with all in his favour. A phenomenal time in the day.
@bgardiner20000 oh don't worry about the other stuff just a misunderstanding him and me had when he commented on a comment i made which wasn't about him saying the same stuff to me,then when i said something that he knew was the truth he couldn't handle it and didn't reply ,i love how he always picks on Phar Lap to,he even said Phar Lap didnt carry that much weight,what a joke !
@MrWalto69 Keyboard warrior. I love it. The guy is a complete noob. I have no problems with people having their own opinion but right from the outset he has been offensive & 1 track minded. He completely lacks any ability to have an adult conversation & put forward a sane argument. His viewpoints are non-sense based on only a very shallow understanding of the sport. I dn't consider myself an expert, but I have spent all of my life around racing. He only knows what he can read s'where.
@bbmtge dude i wouldn't be calling people out accusing them of avoiding questions and they "refuse" stuff,your the weak dog that couldnt reply to my comment whats the matter too gutless to reply?
point 2, in case you havnt wondered i agree with everything @bgardiner2000 is saying,
3 he didnt come here for a troll fight unlike you keyboard warrior
4 keep on abusing him and me if you have the balls you'll get and ill effortsley keep on beating you ,
@MrWalto69 I'm not sure I follow eall ur saying, but you're right about 1 thing. He avoids any topic he knows he has been caught out on. All this nonsense about "validity" & "proof" is just a ruse to distract from the fact that he talks shite. The IFHA have made an art of inference on racehorses performance. Frankel might have run a slow time (relatively) in the Sussex, but has achieved a rating of 137. Although it's based on a lot of 'what ifs', few would say that this is overstated.
@bgardiner2000 Try to remember validity. It's obvious you don't OWN your comment. If you did, you could support it with PROOF. Imagine going to chemistry lab with a hypothesis...being unable to prove your hypothesis...then turning to class and saying that it is THEIR responsibility to DISPROVE what you couldn't prove in the first place.
@bgardiner2000 You hide in generalizations. Tell you what. Let's see what scientific method you use for each 1/5 of a second you move Phar Lap forward. Please enlighten everyone with facts and figures instead of rhetoric.
@bbmtge having to travel into the hot summer of another country in a winter coat. Agree or Disagree? A horse is disadvantaged by having to race on a surface ressembling a car-park for the first time as opposed to on turf on which the best horses in the world race. Agree or disagree? A horse is disadvantaged by carrying a significant heel injury. Agree or disagree? A horse is disadvantaged by having a disrupted preparation & only one full gallop over 5F prior to the race. Agree or disagree? A ...
@bbmtge horse is disadvantaged by racing 4-5 wide to cover the field such were the rumours that the local jockeys had been paid off to hold him up. Agree or disagree? A horse is disadvantaged by not being completely ridden out in the final 2F such was his dominance over the best field that could be mustered on the day. Agree or Disagree? A horse is disadvantaged by the lack of access to 40 years of advancement in feeding, vet science etc. Agree or disagree? A horse is disadvantaged by not...
@bbmtge access to 40 years of track improvements. Agree or disagree? In addition to all of these disadvantages, add also the likelihood that Secretariat & Spectacular Bid both received run-up advantages in all of their races & I believe their "peak" times would have been pretty similar. Phar Lap did not win a triple crown with 3 outstanding performances. Nor did Sec win 4 stakes races (G1's) in 8 days or win on another continent. Your logic of "time and nothing else" is flawed...
@bbmtge The highest rated racehorse in the world at the moment is Frankel. You may not have heard of him as he's not from the US. The race he achieved his highest rating in was the Sussex Stakes where he beat another horse u probably haven't heard of Canford Cliffs by 5+L. His current rating with the IFHA is 137. It makes u wonder why Mandurah (a claimer) is not the title holder given he ran the mile at Monmouth more than 6 seconds faster? Mandurah's actual time for his race btw was 1:33.
@bbmtge The answer would be as retarded as the question, and the person asking it. I don't hear a further rebuttal of the "run-up" issue. Could this be that you have had a look at the records and seen that you are wrong? Most probably. Here is some food for thought for your ridiculous "science" question... Please feel free to agree or disagree at your leisure. A horse is disadvantaged by having to travel to the other side of the world by sea. Agree or disagree? A horse is disadvataged by...
@bgardiner2000 Funny how you are dodging being called out. You are the one who made the statement. If you read back to my comment, you will see it. Tell you what. I'll say it again...you have arbitrarily chose personally selected premises and moved a horse forward by 20 lengths to afford the horse a better time. The, you stated that anyone who disagrees with this is an idiot. There is absolutely no method that supports this arbitrariness. It is no more than wishful and prejudiced rhetoric.
Hello there, I'm the creator of a book and CD set titled 'Me & Phar Lap'. At the moment I'm editing a series of tapes of Tommy for the CDs, and I wondered where did this footage come from? The reason I ask is to explore the possibility of using the audio of the Agua Caliente call on the CD.
Look forward to hearing from you, Jan 'Yarn' Wositzky
@bgardiner2000 ...through Melb Museum....so have you got it up there with or without their permission? Not that it worries me, it's just tht I'm making a commercial product so I have to go by the book.
@aropax40 They can and they do my friend. It's called Timeform.... people have been doing it for years. It's just that some people find it a bit difficult to understand.
After Phar Lap died following this race, newspapers in Australian had a full page headline, with only the words... "He's Dead" and everyone at that time new what it meant..
@MARKELLY007 You mean from the far east? Let's call him Australiasian. After all, Unzed is the 8th state of Australia... just the kiwis don't know it yet. I'd vote for swapping the Q'landers for the Kiwis any day ;)
no worries the way our economy is shagged we would be better of as Aussies ( Shit that hurt!! ) may well just shift over with the rest of NZ and leave this place to the Asians poms and south africans
@MARKELLY007 Well said. The only problem is that NZ is where the best thoroughbreds in the world come from. And definitley the best standardbreds. Kentucky Blue Grass has nothing on 90% of New Zealand. And your rugby players are clearly above average.
@bgardiner2000 mate I am sorry for the correction but Phar Lap is purebred Turkish Horse, I think important thing is originally where Phar Lap or Phar Lap's mother-father or grandmother-father came from not where Phar Lap born. These Turkish horses gifted to England, Australia and New Zealand by Turkish Goverment (king's gift). All horses race in Australia today 100/100 Turkish breed horses, any horse 100/1 broken gets disqualified from races. cheers
@BLOODYCLQ Well your "correction" is in part correct. The Byerly Turk was 1 of the 3 horses considered the founding fathers of the modern-day t'bred. The other two, more influential stallions were the Darley Arabian & the Godolphin Arabian that were from the Middle East. The Byerly Turk however was not a "King's gift" as you say. He was captured by Captain Robert Byerley at the Battle of Buda (1686), served as his war horse & was taken back to Ireland in 1689. Thanks for the interest though ;)
@BLOODYCLQ How can you say the thoroughbred is 100% Turkish? To do so ignores the fact that the MARES used to form the breed were chiefly English mares of local origin, from a variety of breeds, mostly English riding horses and Irish Hobby horses, along with some Barbs and Turks. There is more to breeding than just the sire.
@44redman1 Over 5-6F she'd be pretty hard to beat. But remember this. Phar Lap travelled by sea for 3 months to the US, to their summer in his winter coat, with no lead up races, half fit & with an injury ran a 2:02.2 at his first ever run on a dirt track ,4/5 wide & won on the bridle. That is a fast time even today. Had he been born now with the benefit of modern feeding, training techniques, vet science etc. he might very well have still been among the top bracket of horses anywhere.
Some of my other favourite great NZ horse include... Sunline.. Kiwi.. & Bonecrusher (who is still alive by the way) All great horses in there own right..
Many of the great champion horses through out the world are in fact descendents or distant relatives of Phar laps great grand daddy Carbine - including Secretariat.
@Kakariki77 I've done a lot of research into those blood-lines and the original super-sire was Carbine's sire West Australian and his sire Melbourne... both UK stallions. My fave Unzed horse would have to be Sunline... she was super. But you can't go past So You Think. Can't wait fo the European Spring to see him take on the best 2000m horses in the world.
@bgardiner2000 True, yeah i did abit of research on the whole big heart thing... known as the X factor & apparently its called that due to the fact that the large heart gene is past down through the X chromosome on the female side.. i dont know how much truth there is to this but very interesting. We all know Phar lap & Carbine had had big hearts as well as Secretariat ( although his was never weighed or photographed) So in theory Carbine would past the X factor on to his daughters colt..
Makybe diva.. won the melbourne cup 3 times between 2003 -2005 with times of 3.19.90, 3.28.55 & 3.19.17. Last year Americain won wth 3.26.87. There is a huge difference in times here & it just goes to show time isnt everything. there are many factors in time & it all depends on how fast the field goes & how hard the horses are pushed. Champion horses Carbine 43:33 & Phar lap 51:38 winning 32 of his last 35 races would still be great champions today no doubt!! amoung the greatest for sure!!
Yes Kingston Rule ran an amazing melbourne cup race.. breaking the track record with 3:16.3 in 1990 - that gives us abit of an indication of how fast Secretariat must of been, especially at the shorter distances. Unfortunately Kingston Rule never went on to win too many other races in his career.. maybe thats why he didnt feature in the race that was never run!! Interesting to note a NZ horse Il Tempo holds the world record 2 mile (3218m) time of 3:16.2. these days they only run (3200m).
@Kakariki77 Kingston Rule had suspensory ligament injuries to his front legs when he was being prepared for the Australian Cup in the autumn of 1991 and was retired to stud. The recognized world record for 2 miles is held by Deep Impact who ran 3:13.4 in the Tenno Sho in '06. Don't know what that works out to for 3218 meters... but that's two consecutive 1:36.7 miles. That without doubt has to be one of the all time great performances. Anywhere. How he doesn't get a 135+ TF rating is beyond me.
@bgardiner2000 Totally agree.. very fast times.Il Tempo was top-weight and hot pre-post favorite for the 1970 Melbourne Cup, but did not race. In his preparation for the cup, he broke down after running a 1 min. 39.0 sec. mile training gallop. He never raced again. I wonder how Carbine & Phar lap would of performed in modern times with modern training & managment. I know phar lap broke a couple of WRC winning with contemptous ease despite never truly extending himself & carrying huge weight.
@Kakariki77 I think that if they were foaled today they would be at least competitive. It's hard to gauge. Bart Cummings says that he doesn't think that the horse itself has evolved that much in his time. Remember his father's horse Comic Court ran 3:20 in 1950 MC... & he was def at his best at 2000m and also held a national 6F record. Using time as a measure of how good Phar Lap & Carbine were isn't that great. Both were swoopers though could be ridden on the speed. Speed horses will... cont
@Kakariki77 ... always average faster time over the course of their career. Example: Vo Rogue consistently ran superior times to many of his opposition.. but you would never have rated him a better horse than Better Loosen Up or Let's Elope. Phar Lap ran 2:02.3 in Mexico... with no lead up races and 1 gallop over 1000m, on dirt for the first time, injured after traveling to the other side of the world, from last and 5 wide. Only an idiot couldn't see that this time equates easily to sub-2:00.
@bgardiner2000 Yes.. Watching this race you get the feeling Phar lap was just playing with the rest of the field. If he was fit, injury free & pushed - no doubt he could of easily run in a time well below 2min especially on grass. Whats the world record for 1 & 1/4 mile do you know?
@Kakariki77 Spectacular Bid ran a 1:57.8 in 1980 on dirt, but the record is held on turf by Double Discount in 1977 - 1:57.4. Spectacular Bid though carried 10 pounds more. Recently the mile world record was set by a horse called Mandurah - 1:31.23. But the previous record was (according to the web-site I've looked at) was 1:31.41. Not many people know this but Amounis ran a 1:31.25 in 1926!!! So I suspect that the "World Records' listed on this site refer to US records more than world records.
@bgardiner2000 Secretariat earlier ran the identical time of Spectacular Bid (1:57.8) as a 3 yr old, "pulling up" after having just broken the world record of 1 1/8 miles in the Marlboro Cup. Imagine what he could have run if his jockey was not trying to slow him down over the last 1/8 mile! Incidentally Secretariat beats Phar Lap by a handy 4.4 seconds = 22 LENGTHS over 1 1/4 miles on dirt.
@eckythimble The US timing system with "run-up" allowances is very suspect. That and given it's extremely lax rules around drugs make any time comparisons from US horses that have raced in the last 50 years, IMO, suspect. Phar Lap travelled half-way round the world (by ship) out of season, carried an injury that significantly restricted his preparation, raced on dirt for the first time & thrashed the best field (beside Equipoise) that could be assembled. With NO run-up time.
@bgardiner2000 Hmmm.... Secretariat underwent saliva and urine tests after all three of his triple crown wins. As for a run-up advantage thats rather curious, he started each race in a small enclosed gate and broke dead last in two of them. There's no doubt Phar Lap was an all time great horse and one that could possibly have run 5-6 lengths faster given a second chance. But 22 lengths faster? Unlikely. Then again, only one other horse in history ever tied Secretariat over 1.25 - The Bid.
@eckythimble Great points!!! Unfortunately you are debating with one of the all-tiome idiots on youtube. There is a distinct inablity to handle facts thus, he/she simply tries, in vain, to make the point that his favorite horse can run as fast as he wants it to.
@eckythimble US race timing is not absolute (ie. from the starting gates) as you might think, & like it is in ANZ / Euro. Some US sites actually publish the "run up" distance. Check the BC site for eg. The BC Miles won by Goldikova show the first filed sectional & the run-up distance in the following: ('10) 24.02s, 34 ft; ('09) 22.98s, 84 ft; '08 23.0s, 107ft. The leading horse would be at full speed hitting the timer at 107ft (32.6m). This means that the times for the race distance itself...
@eckythimble are faster as you would imagine. Here are a few calcs on the impact of a run up, using Black Caviar's first 1/4 in the TJ Smith (23.3) secs. The final time of the race was 1:08.71. Time advantage with run up: 5m (16.4ft) is 1.08s; 10m (32.8ft); 1.59s; 20m (65.6ft); 2.25s; & 30m (98.4ft) 2.5s. Of course, in a real race, the jockeys may take time to steady their mounts, so these calculations probably overstate the advantage. And of course they would be different for longer distances.
@eckythimble Have a look at a horse called Mandurah winning over 1m at Monmouth last year. As per the footage, he runs around 1:33 flat in the race (super quick), but the official time was 1:31.23. That works out to a 60ft run up. If you take this as an average for a distance it puts Sec & SB's times at around the same time (1:58.73) that Makybe Diva ran in the '05 Aust Cup. I'm not trying to diminish what Sec & SB achieved in their careers; but I think too much is made of their time records.
@bgardiner2000 I don't buy it. I can't see any mention of this run-up v. timing bees-wax anywhere on the internet. As for M. Diva, no doubt she was fast. But she'd still be following Sec home at a good distance with all the rest of the pack. He covered 11m metres more (1 1/4 mile = 2011m) on DIRT, whilst PULLING UP after a 1 1/8 mile race, whilst a still growing and quickening 3 year old, in 1:57.8 - almost a full second quicker.
@eckythimble So if YOU can't find something on the internet then it doesn't exist? Here's a site you can ref: breederscup. com/ images/ ClassicChart.pdf. You'll see that from the BCC won by Blame last year in a time of 2:02.28 for the 2000 the "run-up" distance was 34'. That works out (given a first 1/4m split in that race of 23.90) to around 1.5 seconds. I think you'll find that this brings the time back to the field a little... although the run-up distance for Secretariat is only implied.
@eckythimble Unlike my friend bbmtge, if u look at all of my comments you will see balance. There is a reason why Sec is so well thought of in the racing community. Had he run the Belmont time in isolation u would be able say it was a one off (Mandurah at Monmouth). BUT, Sec ran some amazing time in many races & all of the triple crown. I don't agree though that this gives him some god-like status. There have been many others that achieved some amazing things in their careers. PhL is 1 of these.
@bgardiner2000 I tend to see PhL & MoW as similar: huge strong horses with good speed and great endurance.
But Sec was a great sprinter with great endurance, an unsurpassed, almost cheetah-like 110 degree stride angle and an extremely high intellgence where he took over the racing strategy from his jockey. Whilst his Belmont 1 1/4 mile was faster than his Derby, he went (much) faster again at Marlboro. So he was still getting faster when he retired! So I think he belongs on another platform.
@eckythimble Keep it coming. Your stuff is great. do not buy into the "push-pull" junk that is spewed. The postings are textbook attempts at false logic, etc.
@bbmtge Look you just can't face the fact that US racing has been cooking the books for years. Notwithstanding run-ups the lax drug laws in the states have had a hugely detrimental effect on the performance of US horses to the point where there is 1 in the top 20 list from the IFHA. 1!! US is & should be a t'bred racing powerhouse... & isn't. US horses will struggle to win any of the BC races this year... maybe the dirt races as the good horses race on turf. Aiden O'Brien sent Cape Blanco to ...
@bbmtge race at A'ton because of the easy pickings, knowing that he would struggle against So You Think et al. US horses have won nothing of consequence outside of the US in recent years. It's been 20 years since a US horse won the Japan Cup. You would have noticed that AIPK's have been banned from juvenile races in the US. Let's hope it's not 2 little 2 late. Run-ups have over-inflated the race times achieved by US horses. Maybe we should start giving Usain Bolt's rivals a head start as well?
@bbmtge Your postings are text-book attempts at debunking via disagreement, with no meaningful response to any of the information given. "I don't agree with anything you say because you are wrong. I can't offer anything specific about what you're wrong about... but you're still wrong. I expect you to verify everything you say but even when you do I will ignore it and still proclaim that you are wrong."
@bgardiner2000 No logic in your response. As always, you retreat to generalizations and the "all or nothing" approach. You made a "claim". Said "claim" cannot be proven or have any degree of certainty. by any method. You further stated that anyone who disagrees with your "claim" is an idiot. You were asked to provide a method of verification. you continually refuse. Why??? Due to the FACT that you CANNOT.
@bgardiner2000 How is it that you make the comments that you do and flat REFUSE to qualify them??? You can dodge and play all of the "back-talk" games that you will, but it does not change the fact that you cannot and will not qualify yourself.
@bbmtge My "back-talk"? U can't even respond to the most simple "agree/disagree" statements. These are by their nature, qualifyiers. There is no scientific way of directly quantifying the impact that these will have directly on the outcome. They are though, in of themselves & cumulatively, variables that detracted from the track record that Ph Lap set in Mexico. I didn't say u would have to be an idiot if u disagreed, just if u couldn't understand the concept. I.e. You. I guess I rest my case.
@bgardiner2000 Only an idiot would arbitrarily PROCLAIM that one time is equal to another simply because you say it is so. No logic there, only fantasy. It's the same old bullshit rhetoric from you time and again. The comment is inherently false.
@bbmtge Your inability for logical comprehension does not make anything inherently false. I have never said that Phar Lap's time was the same as anyone's. I have said though that it would equate to a sub-2:00 in today's money... especially if he was given the same run-up advantage US horses receive. Is it any wonder why the US racing industry is in such a poor state.
@bgardiner2000 This is textbook stuff. #1) Your statement was that Phar Laps' time equates to sub 2:00 and that only an idiot couldn't see "it". Thus, in your view, it is an equal time for a horse in "today's money. By arbitrarily moving a horse forward, through personally chosen premises, some 20 lengths is fallacious by it's very definition.
@bgardiner2000 AND...#3 - Your overuse of rhetoric in the hopes that someone will captitulate is...also...hilarious. The use of the terms "run-up" and unqualified remarks about U.S. racing simply shows stark prejudice.
@bbmtge This is text book stuff... I think you meant #4... 4 comes after 3. Let me ask you a question. If a tree falls in the forrest but no-one is there to hear it, does it misrepresent how long it takes to fall? Again, just because you don't know about it, doesn't make something untrue. Have a look at the Breeders Cup web-site... it is there in black and white... the best way to represent facts for people of questionable intelligence and significant prejudice.
@Kakariki77 That time on a grass track now (somewhat better surfaces than 80 years ago) with modern feeding, etc. as you mentioned compares favourably to Makybe Diva's Australian Cup record (1:58:73). Put them all at set weights and he is competitive against anything that's ever raced. Of course this is all speculation. The problem with the American brigade is that they don't believe that horses in ANZ are or were competitive. Despite the just released world rankings ;)
@bgardiner2000 Very interesting.. i must have a look at that just released world ranking.. i wonder wheather it was put together by our friends in America lol.
@Kakariki77 The ratings are put together by the IFHA. I've already backed So You Think to be the top rated horse in the world at the end of next season ;)
AMAZING ! to run that fast from a completly different hard surface then australia,deffently one of the most amazing animal ever seen,pity i wasnt alive when he was racing:)
why american poisoned Phar Lap?
GODKHaaaaaaN 1 week ago
@GODKHaaaaaaN I think the general consensus now is that he was accidentally poisoned by his handlers. Arsenic was a common addition to a number of medicinal tonics that horses were given in those days.
bgardiner2000 1 week ago
@bgardiner2000
thx,
rip great horse
GODKHaaaaaaN 1 week ago
ONE NEW ZEALANDS GREATEST!
2patero 1 week ago
It's amazing how he managed to win this race after a poor start out of the stalls, and running from the back on the outside!
shantaine2009 2 weeks ago
@shantaine2009 I'm pretty sure that this was the game plan, to get him out slow and take him wide to avoid any interference. He didn't just win it... he won eased down in track record time. Imagine what he could have done with a decent preparation & without all of the other things that potentially detracted from his performance?
bgardiner2000 2 weeks ago
Comment removed
zircon1274 2 weeks ago
Part 4 - Lastly, an indication of the actual track condition might be gleaned from the fact that in the following race, Eddie Arcaro (who was considered the greatest US jockey ever when I was growing up), ridding a horse called Wizardly, won in a time of 2:07 1/5.
711ATOM 3 weeks ago
@711ATOM Thanks for the input Atom. Hats off to your thorough research.
bgardiner2000 3 weeks ago
@bgardiner2000 This is off the subject but I was looking at some harness racing uploads and one of yours came up. Is that THE Mr Feelgood, the Little Brown Jug champion?! When did he get to Australia; shouldn't he be at stud now?
711ATOM 3 weeks ago
@711ATOM Correct. That is The Mr Feelgood. Isn't he a wonder? He's won just under $4m now and is still perfectly sound. We have a $1m+ series on in Western Australia at the moment and he is in it. Although he's first two runs have been a bit on the average side. Although it is extremely hot here at the moment & some horses find it difficult to acclimatize. Have a look at the latest race, the Fremantle Cup, & you'll see one of the fastest pacers to ever wear hopples bar none. Im Themightyquinn.
bgardiner2000 3 weeks ago
Part 3-A better known story comes from the Charlie Whittingham, the Hall of Trainer of Sunday Silence, who wrote in his autobiography "I never got to see Man O'War. I was too young. But he'd have to be a helluva horse to be better than Phar Lap. He won the Caliente race running almost all the way around on the outside fence. His rider was convinced the other jocks in the there were out to get them. He figured the best way was not to give them a chance."
711ATOM 3 weeks ago
Part 2-Fortunately there were many very eyewitnesses to race and it is clear that Phar Lap's performance was outstanding. The great Johnny Longden, ridding a horse named Bahamas (99lbs.), recalled "I was on a fast horse and I was in front, and I looked back at the three-quarter pole and Phar Lap was about the seven-eighths pole. When I hit the half-mile pole, he went by me like a freight train passin' a tramp. He was in the middle of the racetrack, and he just gallop around."(conti.)
711ATOM 3 weeks ago
Part1-I think speculating on whether Phar Lap's 2:02 4/5 track record would today equate to a sub 2 min. run on dirt today is a waste of time. Of course it was a very different place and time, but on the minus side west coast tracks were in the past notoriously fast; Spectacular Bid's 1:57 4/5 while carrying 126 on dirt looks mind boggling but it only bettered Noor's record by 2/5 (set at Gold Gate,west coast track, while Noor carried 130). The Bid came close to that time in the east (conti.)
711ATOM 3 weeks ago
@711ATOM As of 1950 run-ups were used in all American racing. For SB's and Sec's time you can add 1-1.5 secs to allow for the advantage. IMO it's called "cooking the books."
bgardiner2000 3 weeks ago
@bgardiner2000 Thank you for response, however I can't agree with you on the idea that American racing is "cooking the books" because that implies an conspiracy to create time records. It's too long to get into now, but absolute time is not regarded as crucial in the US due to of the great geographical diversity of the continent. That is why the Beyer's Speed Figures have become so popular. Please view this posting about Mr. Beyer and Secretariat /watch?v=lJnjRBtAkTk.
711ATOM 3 weeks ago
@711ATOM While I'm not suggesting that the times are not used absolutely for speed ratings, all American records are in general, 1 to 1.5 seconds faster than everywhere else. I hear so much about Spec Bid's time, which (as an eg) when compared to the time Makybe Diva ran in the 2005 Australian Cup (1:58.73) is a second faster. Once adjusted for the run up where does that leave the time? In terms of ratings it might have little impact but in terms of great time records it's cooking the books.
bgardiner2000 3 weeks ago
@bgardiner2000 This is a long subject, I wish I could talk to you rather then write this because writing will take a too much time (and space). If someone is giving you grief about Makybe Diva's time he doesn't know what he is taking about. Due to the unusual geographic diversity of N. America, the dirt tracks from region to region a very different, thus the popularity of speed figures. Spec. Bid's 1-1/4 time, as great as it is, is not held in reverence the way (conti.)
711ATOM 3 weeks ago
@bgardiner2000 Secretariat's Belmont is regarded. That is because Spec. Bid's record came at Santa Anita; S. California is a desert, it is hard to get good sandy loam there, so S. Anita old dirt track was notoriously fast. Belmont's main isn't called "Big Sandy" for nothing; 2:24 for 1-1/2 on that track is considered impossible (except for Sec.). Hawkster's 2:22 4/5? No one talks about it; grass is inherently a faster surface than dirt, and where did it take place? Santa Anita.
711ATOM 3 weeks ago
@bgardiner2000 I'll finish (taking up too much space), but Spec. Bid never ran below 2:00 on an eastern track, the new dirt track (replacing the synthetic) at Santa Anita is even faster; in Dec. 2010 Twirling Candy ran 7f in 1:19.70 breaking Spec. Bid's 1:20 track record, they are now adding sand. Churchill Downs is very different from Belmont, Calif. horse never run the same times when the go to Oaklawn, Ark.; I haven't touched the history of run ups, I don't believe they are what you think.
711ATOM 3 weeks ago
@711ATOM Hi Mate, I understand track biases. But run-ups are a documented part of handicapping in the US. Have a look at the official Breeders Cup web-site on the results down-loads the run-up distances are all shown. Eg., in the Juv Sprint won by Secret Circle in 1:10.52 with a run-up of 100 feet. In that race the time for the opening quarter mile is 20.96s. That is nearly a whole second quicker than Black Caviar has ever run an opening 400m. Yes, the run-up is exactly what I think it is.
bgardiner2000 3 weeks ago
@bgardiner2000 Hi, sorry if this seems rushed, its early morning here and I am in a little hurry. Run-up distances are published for all races distances and tracks. Churchill has one of the longest run ups for 6f of any track, it is not unusual for you to see opening first quarters under 22, that is one reason Secret Circle's run is not seen as something special (it was only awarded a 95 Beyers, good but not more). The Factor in a maiden special weight in Dec. 2010 (conti.)
711ATOM 3 weeks ago
@bgardiner2000 ran a track record 106.98 as a 2yr old! But where was it run, the new dirt track at Santa Anita (the one they're trying to slow). Beyers 102, less than the 103 his sire War Front earned as a 4yr old running 1:10 1/5 at Saratoga 2006 (and I like The Factor). The thing run-ups very greatly for each distance and track (sometimes for field size). The run-up for a mile at Gulfstream is 5ft, I can't remember what it is but Del Mar for a mile (another Cal. track) (more)
711ATOM 3 weeks ago
@bgardiner2000 is some ridiculous distance. But back to Churchill, only 2 horses have run the Kent. Derby. under 2:00 because C. Downs is slow (and dirt is inherently slower than grass). Sec. has the track record of 1:59.40 and Monarchos ran 1:59.98 in 2001 on a day when everyone agrees Churchill was freakishly fast (Churchill, clay, gets fast when it's very hot and dry, Belmont, sand, get slower!) (little more)
711ATOM 3 weeks ago
@bgardiner2000 I have to finish now, but to end there is no clear direct correlation between run up and winning time (1 - 1.5 sec. for example). It is trumped by geography, absolute time is always subject to modifiers here, and finally, as someone not among the crazed Secretariat worshipers (Riva Ridge fan) the 2:24 at Belmont in a heat wave (I was going through it then) is impossible! (Enjoy the weekend - got to run).
711ATOM 3 weeks ago
@711ATOM hi Mate. Like I said, I completely understand track bias & how that works. I think run-ups are the equivalent of letting Ian Thorpe start from back in the change rooms & doing a swan dive over the blocks as the starter lets them go. In '10 Mandurah ran a world record on any surface over 1m at Monmouth - 1:31.23. The elapsed time for the race is just on 1:33, with the difference being the run-up. If they gave Black Caviar a run up of 100ft over 5F she might finish before she starts!
bgardiner2000 2 weeks ago
@711ATOM There is a direct correlation between run-up winning time. Of course they will be affected by riding styles & tactics, & a myriad of other factors. But, nontheless, a horse that has ANY speed advantage at the beginning of the race will still be able to run a faster time. The fact that the ru's for the benchmark time records of Spectacular Bid / Secretariat etc. are not available makes me very suspicious of them, as I am for any US time record.
bgardiner2000 2 weeks ago
@bgardiner2000 I just got home, watched the Super Bowl, the home team lost. No, I'm sorry but there is no direct correlation, there simple isn't. For example, the run up for 6f at Churchill Down 100ft., the track record is 1:07.55; for Belmont the 6f track record is 1:07 and 3/5; Belmont has no run ups at any distance. The difference? Churchill is slow. 1-1/4 mile record at Churchill is 1:59 4/5 by Sec, run up is 34 ft. (I believe that has not changed since 1973) conti.
711ATOM 2 weeks ago
@bgardiner2000 Santa Anita has a 50foot run up, pretty close; the track record is Spectacular Bid's 1:57 4/5 (correction Secretariat's time was 1:59 2/5). Spectacular Bid was 4, Sec. was 3, both at 126. No one believes that Spectacular Bid 1.6 faster than Sec. It was the track. The track rec. at Belmont is 1:58 1/5. Belmont has not run up, Monmouth 2:00 4/5 no run ups, Lone Star 1:59.2 by the amazing Ghostzapper, no run ups. There is no correlation, you have to know the tracks.
711ATOM 2 weeks ago
@711ATOM I only have 1 comment I guess and then I want to drop it... I think there are far more interesting things you & I could talk about. Do you think that a horse over any distance has an advantage if given a run up versus a horse that does not? If we were athletes of similar ability & I started with a run up would I be more likely to win? A la it gives me an unfair advantage.
bgardiner2000 2 weeks ago
@bgardiner2000 Of the subject again, I'm not really a harness guy but I understand you just had a big meet there (Hunter Cup?) did you get to go?
711ATOM 2 weeks ago
@711ATOM The Hunter Cup, which is also run on the same night as the Trotters Interdominion Final and the Victoria Derby is run at the Melton track in Victoria. I am all the way on the other side of the country in Perth ;) About 3000 miles away.
bgardiner2000 2 weeks ago
@711ATOM What do you know about Sanagas, the Holywood Turf Cup winner? He is to be sent to Australia to be trained by Bart Cummings for a tilt at the Melbourne Cup.
bgardiner2000 2 weeks ago
@bgardiner2000 Not a whole lot but I'll give it a try. By Lomitas; formerly owned by Andreas Jacobs (serious money). Sent to the US and given over the Graham Motion (very good trainer - Animal Kingdom). 4 of 5 in Germany but had lots of problems (wouldn't run straight). Improved a lot with Mr. Motion. The race when Sanagas seemed to get it was the Gr.3 Sycamore St., Oct. 20, 2011 at Keeneland. Scheduled 1-1/2 miles, it was rained of the grass and run on Polytrack at 1-5/8. conti.
711ATOM 2 weeks ago
The change didn't bother him, clean run, 2:39.40, track record but the Polytrack there is pretty new. Partmanners2 has the race posted watch?v=uZ10UDcwwqY. Maybe not in the class of little sister Danedream, but definitely a 1-1/2 mile+ horse. Sycamore & Hollywood taken together suggests improving form. Set for Gr2 San Marcos Stakes (10f Feb.11), Gr2 San Luis Rey Stakes (12f Mar.18), then Gr2 San Juan Capistrano Handicap(14f Apr.22) all at Santa Anita. Looks like a Mel. Cup type.
711ATOM 2 weeks ago
@711ATOM Yes he certainly looks to have a Melbourne Cup-type background. I think that's secondary though for horses who will undergo such a huge change in environment. It'll be interesting to see how he goes. I see they've spaced his runs to about 4 weeks in the past. He'll not get that with the great Bart Cummings. BC has a theory that a horse needs 10000 meters of racing in his legs to get him ready for a Melbourne Cup. And he would know, he's won 12 of them!
bgardiner2000 2 weeks ago
@bgardiner2000 I'll try to reply to your comments little be little (the YouTube robo monitor is mad at me). Just saw the San Marcos, finished last of 6, a disappointing effort by Sanagas but I wouldn't make to much of it, 1-1/4 clearly to short for him. First race in US was at 10F, 7th of 10, 3rd race 11F, finished 4th of 7. 3 wins at 12f or more. New trainer is Peter Miller, for some strange reason he is know 1 for 42 in first races for new horses transferring to his barn (more)
711ATOM 2 weeks ago
@bgardiner2000 Interesting news, they were interviewing Peter Miller and the American part owner of Sanagas before the race; the owner said that Peter Miller didn't know it yet but in two weeks they were bring up another horse from Argentina (no name given). The partnership is searching the world for Mel. Cup runners. I assume that this unnamed horse will also go to Bart Cummings, but I am not know what the Australian owners are planning.
711ATOM 2 weeks ago
FYI Saintly won from 6f to 2 miles. And mak diva also won at a mile or shorter I am sure. To win a melb cup you need some sort of speed. Go Black Cav. Along with hay list and sepoy they are easily the best three Aussies since the target to go to ascot. It's gonna be a smash up.
Racingwriter85 4 weeks ago
@Racingwriter85 Yes Makybe Diva won a Memsie stakes over 7F in quick time as well as showing she was world-class over 10F with a 1:58.3 win in the Australian Cup. MD's Memsie Stakes win, as well as Saintly's brilliant win in the CF Orr were part of a traditional Melb Cup prep, where they are likely to be able to show some brillance at the beginning of their preparation. Phar Lap won the Lithlingow Stakes (8F) after winning the Cup in 1930. These feats are no longer possible.
bgardiner2000 4 weeks ago
@Racingwriter85 The best since the Target? IMO Sepoy and Hay List would be the best to go to Ascot since Miss Andretti... but they've never seen the likes of Black Caviar. Not even Dayjur. JMO.
bgardiner2000 4 weeks ago
I feel very lucky to have seen both his hide (At Melbourne museum) and his heart, he really is a supernatural creature
1002Lollipop 4 weeks ago
Frankel the greater ever- I hope so because id love to watch that, but he has a long way to go. Raced out of his own age once (what if it was a weak crop). He needs to continue to continue to improve as he did from 2 to 3 and he could be unbelievable. But he won't get horses running scared when he steps out of England, he will be down and out with a tough run at some stage and that's when he will get the chance to be mentioned with phar lap, secretariat and the like. Can't wait for next season.
Racingwriter85 4 weeks ago
@Racingwriter85 Agreed he is a tremendous talent. But I also agree he's got a long way to go. Timeforms rating of him is ridiculous from what he's achieved to date, as impressive as he's been. I think there's a similar situation with Black Caviar. Protecting their unbeaten status will become more important than proving just how good they are.
bgardiner2000 4 weeks ago
Frankel is better
jimbo7what 1 month ago
@jimbo7what... Based on what? Your lofty opinion. Please troll elsewhere retard.
bgardiner2000 4 weeks ago
@bgardiner2000 dont get me wrong phar lap was a very impressive horse but Frankel will be shown to be the greatest ever. Although the versatility of phar lap was impressive, Frankel looks like he will be just as versatile and obviously wins in a more impressive way. Maybe the whole meaning to austrlaians of phar lap made him great, but that obviously doesnt make him more impressive. Funny that i obviously hit a nerve with some people.
jimbo7what 4 weeks ago
@jimbo7what Ur bound to hit a nerve when you compare a horse that carried grandstands over 6-16F & then travelled to the other side of the world, was injured & ran a track record his first ever time on dirt against the best horses the US could muster; with a horse that has run at set weights, ran some dubiously slow times against suspect opposition. Phar Lap won 4 Stakes races in 8 days from 6F to 2miles. Frankel, while impressive, has a long way to go before he's mentioned in the same breath.
bgardiner2000 4 weeks ago
@jimbo7what, Frankel??? Ha ha, that's funny, but thanks I felt like a good laugh !!
dunsta69 4 weeks ago
I told you i am not ant-Caviar but she is and will not be another Phar Lap. Phar Lap won races over all distances etc as i posted below. Caviar is a champion horse but not a Phar Lap and i doubt even a Tulloch ...
It breaks my heart to see the way So You Think has been mismanaged ..... i agree :) i gotta go mate so let's agree that she is the best sprinter in present day and i believe we have the best horses, race callers and racing in the world here :)
ripperdingo 2 months ago
She will never be as good as Phar Lap and true champion trainers do not dodge other horse for fear of being beaten. Moody only wants the winning streak to continue albeit for stud value but Tommy Smith, Bart and many others never dodged other races -- So You Think is a good example and is champion. I'm not against Black Caviar but until she races against the cream of true sprinters and milers, she is not, in my books, a Phar Lap :)
ripperdingo 2 months ago
@ripperdingo I appreciate your opinion dingo but don't make the mistake of under-valuing the importance of Black Caviar. This is a mistake that many of our European breathren have already made. I doubt that Peter Moody has dodged any horse to date. What he has done has dodged certain conditions and has not stepped her outside of her pet distance. Any why would you with such a winning formula. Had Phar Lap achieved an unbeaten winning streak like she has I am sure that the connections... Con'td
bgardiner2000 2 months ago
@ripperdingo would have been much more careful about what races he did and didn't race in. You say she needs to race against the cream of "true sprinters and milers." I'd be interested to hear where you think these might come from? Over the last 15 years ANZ sprinters have been rated as the best in the world. Horses like Choisir, Takeover Target, Miss Andretti, Magnus, Scenic Blast & Starspangledbanner have all competed at the top level very successfully. As a result, when we say that ... Cont'd
bgardiner2000 2 months ago
@ripperdingo we have a good sprinter, the world takes note. The world-wide bench-mark for sprinting internationally has been for a long time now, the Hong Kong brigade, which have had a long & distinguished list of ANZ-breds at the helm: Silent Witness, Sacrad Kingdom & now Rocket Man. Compare the lines through all of these & Black Caviar & the result will astound anyone who knows what they're looking at. Star Witness ran some great races at Royal Ascot against the best European... Cont'd
bgardiner2000 2 months ago
@ripperdingo sprinters. Despite missing the start in the King Stand & being weighted as a 4yo @ 3 he nearly won the race. Now have a look at him v Black Caviar in the Newmarket giving her 8kg's. There are plenty of formlines through the international contingent as well. Ortensia, Eagle Falls & Silent Witness have all been competitive internationally & are not even 3rd-tier sprinters locally. Hay List has a higher rating than all of our past sprint stars & we know how he goes against... Cont'd
bgardiner2000 2 months ago
@ripperdingo her. He is better than any sprinter currently racin, with the exception of Black Caviar. Sacred Kingdom at his peak would probably be a danger. So we can take it therefore that he IS the cream. Look how Bated Breath went in the HK International sprint. She is going to show them something that they have never seen before in the UK next year. Mark my words. So You Think has been completely mismanaged by Coolmore in his European career to date. He should have never lost the ... Cont'd
bgardiner2000 2 months ago
@ripperdingo PoW to Rewilding & was ridden poorly in the Arc. We've not seen his best yet IMO. Next year he will be fully acclimatized & then we will see the real SYT. Bart Cummings would never have lost had he been preparing him for the Arc and the bristish Champion Stakes.
bgardiner2000 2 months ago
That's what i meant sorry. Black Caviar could have raced in the Toorak but opted for an easier field. Phar Lap wins hands down!!
ripperdingo 2 months ago
@ripperdingo I think that Moody was more intending to dodge the unkown in a mile race with some very good mile horses engaged (King Mufhasa, Wall Street, King's Rose, Toorak Toff, Luen Yat Forever etc.). In terms of a sprint value for breeding purposes the schillachi was a much better decision than the Toorak. Make no mistake about it... she is our generation's Phar Lap. She is equine immortality for us to see & experience first hand. We should all should make the most of it.
bgardiner2000 2 months ago
Phar Lap won races of all distances, won a race at a different distance, including the Melbourne Cup, on each of the 4 race days of the Melbourne Cup that year, carried weight records to victory, won overseas smashing course record time, whereas Black Caviar could have in the Toorak handicap but didn't -- People forget how great other horses are -- Kingston Town won 4 Cox Plates, and won distances from 1,000 metres to nearly 3200 metres when carried 61 kilo and ran 2nd in the Cup.
ripperdingo 2 months ago
@ripperdingo Ur right. Phar Lap won races from 6F to the 2 miles of the cup. Staggering performance. It's the type of feat horses no longer achieve in the modern era. It reminds me of Count Fleet winning the Withers stakes in the 2 weeks between the Preakness & the Belmont stakes. Nowadays trainers complain about the 3 week break between the races. Btw Kingston Town only won 3 Cox Plates... and black Caviar never raced in a Toorak Handicap.
bgardiner2000 2 months ago
come on phar lap, phar lap you beauty
OwnYouAnyDay247 3 months ago
I am sick of people saying Black Caviar is better then Phar Lap. Yes, she has beaten some records set by him but he was a SHINING LIGHT DURING THE DEPRESSION, SOMETHING TO BE COUNTED ON, THAT IS WHY HE IS SO FAMOUS, WHAT HE MEANS TO THE PEOPLE OF AUSTRALIA! I am not a hater of Black Caviar, but Phar Lap will ALWAYS be in my favourite boy.
DarcyLovesPokey 3 months ago 7
@DarcyLovesPokey I actually think that one of the primary reasons that Phar Lap is so well-remembered today was the circumstances surrounding his untimely death. You could never compare what Phar Lap did with Black Caviar's record. Phar Lap did what horses don't do any more. He won 4 stakes races in 8 days from 6F to 2 miles!! But make no mistake, Black Caviar is our generation's Phar Lap. Without a good understanding of racing it is difficult to fully comprehend just how good she is.
bgardiner2000 3 months ago
@DarcyLovesPokey : Your comment i could not agree with more ! . If you go to Black Caviar page on facebook racing victoria is asking is Black Caviar better then Phar Lap , Phar lap is winning as he should be but not by much . i'm really quite disgusted that question could be ask , Racing Victoria really should be ashamed its so disrespetful to a horse who save a nation , i hate the question ! PHAR LAP ALL THE WAY <3 he will always be my favourite aswell! :-)
adele375 2 weeks ago
@adele375 unfortunately it's not comparing apples with apples. But make no mistake about it. Your grand-kids will talk about Black Caviar the way we talk about Phar Lap.
bgardiner2000 2 weeks ago
Phar lap was australian, just like me. Gorgeous horse
TheMakakia 4 months ago
@TheMakakia haha you wish he was born and raised in new zealand
newzealandgal74 4 months ago
Phar lap was Australian just like me, gorgeous horse!
TheMakakia 4 months ago
lost 8 of his first 9 races and finished with 37 wins from 51 starts. going overseas to compete is very tough to do in any sport- and be competitive- moreso for animals. Phar Lap was one of a kind no doubt. a freak of nature.
rcaddict72 4 months ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
black caviar has it all over that piece of shit even sepoy does fuck it even helmet, what about the abo caller LOOL!!
Lukedog7777 4 months ago
@Lukedog7777 Sorry? Which piece of shit?
bgardiner2000 4 months ago 3
@Lukedog7777 ur a kook, phar lap was one of the greatest horses ever but never got to live up to its full potential after it died (under suspicious circumstances) in america
eVaNdaguitar 4 months ago
@Lukedog7777 : Lukedog your name explains you Dog your a fucking idoit man go learn something about racing dickhead and um give some example of why Black Caviar would beat this freaking legend
Muserocksmyworld2221 2 months ago
hahaha american, nope phar lap was australian aye
layne919 4 months ago
@bgardiner2000 excatly ! same with this other guy i had a argument with he was putting facts that when Phar Lap raced agua he never had a cracked hoof and never was sick and was going on how pathetic he was because a horse the following year beat his record ,I still stand my ground saying if Phar Lap was 100% no sickness no cracked hoof he would've had a more amazing record than he had ,but that guy just hates on Phar Lap comments on all of his videos with false statements ,
MrWalto69 4 months ago 3
@MrWalto69 Yeah well I've heard it all before. It's fairly well documented the issues that Phar Lap had when he was preparing to race in Mexico. I don't think the movie is completely accurate but there is no doubt that connections had a pretty big schedule of racing mapped out for him if he went well in Mexico. According to the biography that I read he only had one really serious gallop prior to the H'cap but was otherwise fairly fit. It wasn't the time he ran but the manner in which he won.
bgardiner2000 4 months ago
@bgardiner2000 Very few people would have argued that Equipoise at his best would have been able to match PL on the day. But had he been in the race the time would have been considerably faster. He did as much as was necessary to win the race. FYI Gallant Sir who bested his record the following year carried 53.4 kg's compared to the 58kg top-weight Phar Lap carried. I honestly believe that Phar Lap could have run around 2 mins with all in his favour. A phenomenal time in the day.
bgardiner2000 4 months ago
@bgardiner20000 oh don't worry about the other stuff just a misunderstanding him and me had when he commented on a comment i made which wasn't about him saying the same stuff to me,then when i said something that he knew was the truth he couldn't handle it and didn't reply ,i love how he always picks on Phar Lap to,he even said Phar Lap didnt carry that much weight,what a joke !
MrWalto69 5 months ago
@MrWalto69 Keyboard warrior. I love it. The guy is a complete noob. I have no problems with people having their own opinion but right from the outset he has been offensive & 1 track minded. He completely lacks any ability to have an adult conversation & put forward a sane argument. His viewpoints are non-sense based on only a very shallow understanding of the sport. I dn't consider myself an expert, but I have spent all of my life around racing. He only knows what he can read s'where.
bgardiner2000 4 months ago
@bbmtge dude i wouldn't be calling people out accusing them of avoiding questions and they "refuse" stuff,your the weak dog that couldnt reply to my comment whats the matter too gutless to reply?
point 2, in case you havnt wondered i agree with everything @bgardiner2000 is saying,
3 he didnt come here for a troll fight unlike you keyboard warrior
4 keep on abusing him and me if you have the balls you'll get and ill effortsley keep on beating you ,
5 You mirin serratus bro ?
;)
MrWalto69 5 months ago
@MrWalto69 I'm not sure I follow eall ur saying, but you're right about 1 thing. He avoids any topic he knows he has been caught out on. All this nonsense about "validity" & "proof" is just a ruse to distract from the fact that he talks shite. The IFHA have made an art of inference on racehorses performance. Frankel might have run a slow time (relatively) in the Sussex, but has achieved a rating of 137. Although it's based on a lot of 'what ifs', few would say that this is overstated.
bgardiner2000 5 months ago
@bgardiner2000 Try to remember validity. It's obvious you don't OWN your comment. If you did, you could support it with PROOF. Imagine going to chemistry lab with a hypothesis...being unable to prove your hypothesis...then turning to class and saying that it is THEIR responsibility to DISPROVE what you couldn't prove in the first place.
bbmtge 5 months ago
@bbmtge Why so quiet my friend?
bgardiner2000 4 months ago
@bgardiner2000 You hide in generalizations. Tell you what. Let's see what scientific method you use for each 1/5 of a second you move Phar Lap forward. Please enlighten everyone with facts and figures instead of rhetoric.
bbmtge 5 months ago
@bbmtge having to travel into the hot summer of another country in a winter coat. Agree or Disagree? A horse is disadvantaged by having to race on a surface ressembling a car-park for the first time as opposed to on turf on which the best horses in the world race. Agree or disagree? A horse is disadvantaged by carrying a significant heel injury. Agree or disagree? A horse is disadvantaged by having a disrupted preparation & only one full gallop over 5F prior to the race. Agree or disagree? A ...
bgardiner2000 5 months ago
@bbmtge horse is disadvantaged by racing 4-5 wide to cover the field such were the rumours that the local jockeys had been paid off to hold him up. Agree or disagree? A horse is disadvantaged by not being completely ridden out in the final 2F such was his dominance over the best field that could be mustered on the day. Agree or Disagree? A horse is disadvantaged by the lack of access to 40 years of advancement in feeding, vet science etc. Agree or disagree? A horse is disadvantaged by not...
bgardiner2000 5 months ago
@bbmtge access to 40 years of track improvements. Agree or disagree? In addition to all of these disadvantages, add also the likelihood that Secretariat & Spectacular Bid both received run-up advantages in all of their races & I believe their "peak" times would have been pretty similar. Phar Lap did not win a triple crown with 3 outstanding performances. Nor did Sec win 4 stakes races (G1's) in 8 days or win on another continent. Your logic of "time and nothing else" is flawed...
bgardiner2000 5 months ago
@bbmtge The highest rated racehorse in the world at the moment is Frankel. You may not have heard of him as he's not from the US. The race he achieved his highest rating in was the Sussex Stakes where he beat another horse u probably haven't heard of Canford Cliffs by 5+L. His current rating with the IFHA is 137. It makes u wonder why Mandurah (a claimer) is not the title holder given he ran the mile at Monmouth more than 6 seconds faster? Mandurah's actual time for his race btw was 1:33.
bgardiner2000 5 months ago
@bbmtge The answer would be as retarded as the question, and the person asking it. I don't hear a further rebuttal of the "run-up" issue. Could this be that you have had a look at the records and seen that you are wrong? Most probably. Here is some food for thought for your ridiculous "science" question... Please feel free to agree or disagree at your leisure. A horse is disadvantaged by having to travel to the other side of the world by sea. Agree or disagree? A horse is disadvataged by...
bgardiner2000 5 months ago
@bgardiner2000 Funny how you are dodging being called out. You are the one who made the statement. If you read back to my comment, you will see it. Tell you what. I'll say it again...you have arbitrarily chose personally selected premises and moved a horse forward by 20 lengths to afford the horse a better time. The, you stated that anyone who disagrees with this is an idiot. There is absolutely no method that supports this arbitrariness. It is no more than wishful and prejudiced rhetoric.
bbmtge 5 months ago
Hello there, I'm the creator of a book and CD set titled 'Me & Phar Lap'. At the moment I'm editing a series of tapes of Tommy for the CDs, and I wondered where did this footage come from? The reason I ask is to explore the possibility of using the audio of the Agua Caliente call on the CD.
Look forward to hearing from you, Jan 'Yarn' Wositzky
janwositzky 6 months ago
@janwositzky Through the Melbourne Museum. I'm not sure who owns the copy right though.
bgardiner2000 6 months ago
@bgardiner2000 ...through Melb Museum....so have you got it up there with or without their permission? Not that it worries me, it's just tht I'm making a commercial product so I have to go by the book.
Thanks, Jan.
janwositzky 6 months ago
heyy how can you download vids?
27yaryar 7 months ago
I meant that to be at 44redman1 not bgardiner2000.
Redman sounds like a tool
aropax40 9 months ago
@bgardiner2000
Wake up fool. U can't compare horses that have over 80 years between them!!!
aropax40 9 months ago
@aropax40 They can and they do my friend. It's called Timeform.... people have been doing it for years. It's just that some people find it a bit difficult to understand.
bgardiner2000 5 months ago
After Phar Lap died following this race, newspapers in Australian had a full page headline, with only the words... "He's Dead" and everyone at that time new what it meant..
Stainvita 9 months ago
Thumbs up for Phar Lap and thumbs up for the guy who added the arrow in the race!
ViVi80 10 months ago 20
his an australian horse FULL STOP!
austrlianNRL 11 months ago
PHAR LAP is no doubt the most incredible horse in history!
He is my true role model, such a big heard in more ways than one!
HorseyLovesJennifer 11 months ago
He was a Good old NEW ZEALAND horse!!!!!! not an Australian horse
MARKELLY007 1 year ago
@MARKELLY007 You mean from the far east? Let's call him Australiasian. After all, Unzed is the 8th state of Australia... just the kiwis don't know it yet. I'd vote for swapping the Q'landers for the Kiwis any day ;)
bgardiner2000 1 year ago
@bgardiner2000
no worries the way our economy is shagged we would be better of as Aussies ( Shit that hurt!! ) may well just shift over with the rest of NZ and leave this place to the Asians poms and south africans
MARKELLY007 1 year ago
@MARKELLY007 Well said. The only problem is that NZ is where the best thoroughbreds in the world come from. And definitley the best standardbreds. Kentucky Blue Grass has nothing on 90% of New Zealand. And your rugby players are clearly above average.
bgardiner2000 1 year ago
@bgardiner2000 mate I am sorry for the correction but Phar Lap is purebred Turkish Horse, I think important thing is originally where Phar Lap or Phar Lap's mother-father or grandmother-father came from not where Phar Lap born. These Turkish horses gifted to England, Australia and New Zealand by Turkish Goverment (king's gift). All horses race in Australia today 100/100 Turkish breed horses, any horse 100/1 broken gets disqualified from races. cheers
BLOODYCLQ 9 months ago
@BLOODYCLQ Well your "correction" is in part correct. The Byerly Turk was 1 of the 3 horses considered the founding fathers of the modern-day t'bred. The other two, more influential stallions were the Darley Arabian & the Godolphin Arabian that were from the Middle East. The Byerly Turk however was not a "King's gift" as you say. He was captured by Captain Robert Byerley at the Battle of Buda (1686), served as his war horse & was taken back to Ireland in 1689. Thanks for the interest though ;)
bgardiner2000 9 months ago
@BLOODYCLQ How can you say the thoroughbred is 100% Turkish? To do so ignores the fact that the MARES used to form the breed were chiefly English mares of local origin, from a variety of breeds, mostly English riding horses and Irish Hobby horses, along with some Barbs and Turks. There is more to breeding than just the sire.
emmelby 6 months ago
@bgardiner2000 thats because nsw cant win the origin isnt it
44redman1 9 months ago
@bgardiner2000 black caviar would smoke phar lap any day lol
44redman1 9 months ago
@44redman1 Over 5-6F she'd be pretty hard to beat. But remember this. Phar Lap travelled by sea for 3 months to the US, to their summer in his winter coat, with no lead up races, half fit & with an injury ran a 2:02.2 at his first ever run on a dirt track ,4/5 wide & won on the bridle. That is a fast time even today. Had he been born now with the benefit of modern feeding, training techniques, vet science etc. he might very well have still been among the top bracket of horses anywhere.
bgardiner2000 9 months ago
Some of my other favourite great NZ horse include... Sunline.. Kiwi.. & Bonecrusher (who is still alive by the way) All great horses in there own right..
Many of the great champion horses through out the world are in fact descendents or distant relatives of Phar laps great grand daddy Carbine - including Secretariat.
Kakariki77 1 year ago
@Kakariki77 I've done a lot of research into those blood-lines and the original super-sire was Carbine's sire West Australian and his sire Melbourne... both UK stallions. My fave Unzed horse would have to be Sunline... she was super. But you can't go past So You Think. Can't wait fo the European Spring to see him take on the best 2000m horses in the world.
bgardiner2000 1 year ago
@bgardiner2000 True, yeah i did abit of research on the whole big heart thing... known as the X factor & apparently its called that due to the fact that the large heart gene is past down through the X chromosome on the female side.. i dont know how much truth there is to this but very interesting. We all know Phar lap & Carbine had had big hearts as well as Secretariat ( although his was never weighed or photographed) So in theory Carbine would past the X factor on to his daughters colt..
Kakariki77 1 year ago
Makybe diva.. won the melbourne cup 3 times between 2003 -2005 with times of 3.19.90, 3.28.55 & 3.19.17. Last year Americain won wth 3.26.87. There is a huge difference in times here & it just goes to show time isnt everything. there are many factors in time & it all depends on how fast the field goes & how hard the horses are pushed. Champion horses Carbine 43:33 & Phar lap 51:38 winning 32 of his last 35 races would still be great champions today no doubt!! amoung the greatest for sure!!
Kakariki77 1 year ago
@Kakariki77 As the American Hall of fame trainer Jack Van Berg said "Time only matters when you're in jail."
bgardiner2000 1 year ago 5
@bgardiner2000 Put me in a Ferrari and you get in Civic and ask me about time...lol
Bbird408 1 year ago
@Bbird408 No I would ask why we would bother racing eachother.
bgardiner2000 1 year ago
Yes Kingston Rule ran an amazing melbourne cup race.. breaking the track record with 3:16.3 in 1990 - that gives us abit of an indication of how fast Secretariat must of been, especially at the shorter distances. Unfortunately Kingston Rule never went on to win too many other races in his career.. maybe thats why he didnt feature in the race that was never run!! Interesting to note a NZ horse Il Tempo holds the world record 2 mile (3218m) time of 3:16.2. these days they only run (3200m).
Kakariki77 1 year ago
@Kakariki77 Kingston Rule had suspensory ligament injuries to his front legs when he was being prepared for the Australian Cup in the autumn of 1991 and was retired to stud. The recognized world record for 2 miles is held by Deep Impact who ran 3:13.4 in the Tenno Sho in '06. Don't know what that works out to for 3218 meters... but that's two consecutive 1:36.7 miles. That without doubt has to be one of the all time great performances. Anywhere. How he doesn't get a 135+ TF rating is beyond me.
bgardiner2000 1 year ago
@bgardiner2000 Totally agree.. very fast times.Il Tempo was top-weight and hot pre-post favorite for the 1970 Melbourne Cup, but did not race. In his preparation for the cup, he broke down after running a 1 min. 39.0 sec. mile training gallop. He never raced again. I wonder how Carbine & Phar lap would of performed in modern times with modern training & managment. I know phar lap broke a couple of WRC winning with contemptous ease despite never truly extending himself & carrying huge weight.
Kakariki77 1 year ago
@Kakariki77 I think that if they were foaled today they would be at least competitive. It's hard to gauge. Bart Cummings says that he doesn't think that the horse itself has evolved that much in his time. Remember his father's horse Comic Court ran 3:20 in 1950 MC... & he was def at his best at 2000m and also held a national 6F record. Using time as a measure of how good Phar Lap & Carbine were isn't that great. Both were swoopers though could be ridden on the speed. Speed horses will... cont
bgardiner2000 1 year ago
@Kakariki77 ... always average faster time over the course of their career. Example: Vo Rogue consistently ran superior times to many of his opposition.. but you would never have rated him a better horse than Better Loosen Up or Let's Elope. Phar Lap ran 2:02.3 in Mexico... with no lead up races and 1 gallop over 1000m, on dirt for the first time, injured after traveling to the other side of the world, from last and 5 wide. Only an idiot couldn't see that this time equates easily to sub-2:00.
bgardiner2000 1 year ago
@bgardiner2000 Yes.. Watching this race you get the feeling Phar lap was just playing with the rest of the field. If he was fit, injury free & pushed - no doubt he could of easily run in a time well below 2min especially on grass. Whats the world record for 1 & 1/4 mile do you know?
Kakariki77 1 year ago
@Kakariki77 Spectacular Bid ran a 1:57.8 in 1980 on dirt, but the record is held on turf by Double Discount in 1977 - 1:57.4. Spectacular Bid though carried 10 pounds more. Recently the mile world record was set by a horse called Mandurah - 1:31.23. But the previous record was (according to the web-site I've looked at) was 1:31.41. Not many people know this but Amounis ran a 1:31.25 in 1926!!! So I suspect that the "World Records' listed on this site refer to US records more than world records.
bgardiner2000 1 year ago
@bgardiner2000 Secretariat earlier ran the identical time of Spectacular Bid (1:57.8) as a 3 yr old, "pulling up" after having just broken the world record of 1 1/8 miles in the Marlboro Cup. Imagine what he could have run if his jockey was not trying to slow him down over the last 1/8 mile! Incidentally Secretariat beats Phar Lap by a handy 4.4 seconds = 22 LENGTHS over 1 1/4 miles on dirt.
eckythimble 5 months ago
@eckythimble The US timing system with "run-up" allowances is very suspect. That and given it's extremely lax rules around drugs make any time comparisons from US horses that have raced in the last 50 years, IMO, suspect. Phar Lap travelled half-way round the world (by ship) out of season, carried an injury that significantly restricted his preparation, raced on dirt for the first time & thrashed the best field (beside Equipoise) that could be assembled. With NO run-up time.
bgardiner2000 5 months ago
@bgardiner2000 Hmmm.... Secretariat underwent saliva and urine tests after all three of his triple crown wins. As for a run-up advantage thats rather curious, he started each race in a small enclosed gate and broke dead last in two of them. There's no doubt Phar Lap was an all time great horse and one that could possibly have run 5-6 lengths faster given a second chance. But 22 lengths faster? Unlikely. Then again, only one other horse in history ever tied Secretariat over 1.25 - The Bid.
eckythimble 5 months ago
@eckythimble Great points!!! Unfortunately you are debating with one of the all-tiome idiots on youtube. There is a distinct inablity to handle facts thus, he/she simply tries, in vain, to make the point that his favorite horse can run as fast as he wants it to.
bbmtge 5 months ago
@bbmtge If that's not the pot calling the kettle black then I don't know what is.
bgardiner2000 5 months ago
@eckythimble US race timing is not absolute (ie. from the starting gates) as you might think, & like it is in ANZ / Euro. Some US sites actually publish the "run up" distance. Check the BC site for eg. The BC Miles won by Goldikova show the first filed sectional & the run-up distance in the following: ('10) 24.02s, 34 ft; ('09) 22.98s, 84 ft; '08 23.0s, 107ft. The leading horse would be at full speed hitting the timer at 107ft (32.6m). This means that the times for the race distance itself...
bgardiner2000 5 months ago
@eckythimble are faster as you would imagine. Here are a few calcs on the impact of a run up, using Black Caviar's first 1/4 in the TJ Smith (23.3) secs. The final time of the race was 1:08.71. Time advantage with run up: 5m (16.4ft) is 1.08s; 10m (32.8ft); 1.59s; 20m (65.6ft); 2.25s; & 30m (98.4ft) 2.5s. Of course, in a real race, the jockeys may take time to steady their mounts, so these calculations probably overstate the advantage. And of course they would be different for longer distances.
bgardiner2000 5 months ago
@eckythimble Have a look at a horse called Mandurah winning over 1m at Monmouth last year. As per the footage, he runs around 1:33 flat in the race (super quick), but the official time was 1:31.23. That works out to a 60ft run up. If you take this as an average for a distance it puts Sec & SB's times at around the same time (1:58.73) that Makybe Diva ran in the '05 Aust Cup. I'm not trying to diminish what Sec & SB achieved in their careers; but I think too much is made of their time records.
bgardiner2000 5 months ago
@bgardiner2000 I don't buy it. I can't see any mention of this run-up v. timing bees-wax anywhere on the internet. As for M. Diva, no doubt she was fast. But she'd still be following Sec home at a good distance with all the rest of the pack. He covered 11m metres more (1 1/4 mile = 2011m) on DIRT, whilst PULLING UP after a 1 1/8 mile race, whilst a still growing and quickening 3 year old, in 1:57.8 - almost a full second quicker.
eckythimble 5 months ago
@eckythimble So if YOU can't find something on the internet then it doesn't exist? Here's a site you can ref: breederscup. com/ images/ ClassicChart.pdf. You'll see that from the BCC won by Blame last year in a time of 2:02.28 for the 2000 the "run-up" distance was 34'. That works out (given a first 1/4m split in that race of 23.90) to around 1.5 seconds. I think you'll find that this brings the time back to the field a little... although the run-up distance for Secretariat is only implied.
bgardiner2000 5 months ago
@eckythimble Unlike my friend bbmtge, if u look at all of my comments you will see balance. There is a reason why Sec is so well thought of in the racing community. Had he run the Belmont time in isolation u would be able say it was a one off (Mandurah at Monmouth). BUT, Sec ran some amazing time in many races & all of the triple crown. I don't agree though that this gives him some god-like status. There have been many others that achieved some amazing things in their careers. PhL is 1 of these.
bgardiner2000 5 months ago
@bgardiner2000 Another generalization.
bbmtge 5 months ago
@bgardiner2000 I tend to see PhL & MoW as similar: huge strong horses with good speed and great endurance.
But Sec was a great sprinter with great endurance, an unsurpassed, almost cheetah-like 110 degree stride angle and an extremely high intellgence where he took over the racing strategy from his jockey. Whilst his Belmont 1 1/4 mile was faster than his Derby, he went (much) faster again at Marlboro. So he was still getting faster when he retired! So I think he belongs on another platform.
eckythimble 5 months ago
@eckythimble Keep it coming. Your stuff is great. do not buy into the "push-pull" junk that is spewed. The postings are textbook attempts at false logic, etc.
bbmtge 5 months ago
@bbmtge Look you just can't face the fact that US racing has been cooking the books for years. Notwithstanding run-ups the lax drug laws in the states have had a hugely detrimental effect on the performance of US horses to the point where there is 1 in the top 20 list from the IFHA. 1!! US is & should be a t'bred racing powerhouse... & isn't. US horses will struggle to win any of the BC races this year... maybe the dirt races as the good horses race on turf. Aiden O'Brien sent Cape Blanco to ...
bgardiner2000 5 months ago
@bbmtge race at A'ton because of the easy pickings, knowing that he would struggle against So You Think et al. US horses have won nothing of consequence outside of the US in recent years. It's been 20 years since a US horse won the Japan Cup. You would have noticed that AIPK's have been banned from juvenile races in the US. Let's hope it's not 2 little 2 late. Run-ups have over-inflated the race times achieved by US horses. Maybe we should start giving Usain Bolt's rivals a head start as well?
bgardiner2000 5 months ago
@bbmtge Your postings are text-book attempts at debunking via disagreement, with no meaningful response to any of the information given. "I don't agree with anything you say because you are wrong. I can't offer anything specific about what you're wrong about... but you're still wrong. I expect you to verify everything you say but even when you do I will ignore it and still proclaim that you are wrong."
bgardiner2000 5 months ago
@bgardiner2000 No logic in your response. As always, you retreat to generalizations and the "all or nothing" approach. You made a "claim". Said "claim" cannot be proven or have any degree of certainty. by any method. You further stated that anyone who disagrees with your "claim" is an idiot. You were asked to provide a method of verification. you continually refuse. Why??? Due to the FACT that you CANNOT.
bbmtge 5 months ago
@bgardiner2000 How is it that you make the comments that you do and flat REFUSE to qualify them??? You can dodge and play all of the "back-talk" games that you will, but it does not change the fact that you cannot and will not qualify yourself.
bbmtge 5 months ago
@bbmtge My "back-talk"? U can't even respond to the most simple "agree/disagree" statements. These are by their nature, qualifyiers. There is no scientific way of directly quantifying the impact that these will have directly on the outcome. They are though, in of themselves & cumulatively, variables that detracted from the track record that Ph Lap set in Mexico. I didn't say u would have to be an idiot if u disagreed, just if u couldn't understand the concept. I.e. You. I guess I rest my case.
bgardiner2000 5 months ago
@bgardiner2000 lol so well said. and unfortunately this is a common response on youtube. nice post.
rcaddict72 4 months ago
@bgardiner2000 Only an idiot would arbitrarily PROCLAIM that one time is equal to another simply because you say it is so. No logic there, only fantasy. It's the same old bullshit rhetoric from you time and again. The comment is inherently false.
bbmtge 5 months ago
@bbmtge Your inability for logical comprehension does not make anything inherently false. I have never said that Phar Lap's time was the same as anyone's. I have said though that it would equate to a sub-2:00 in today's money... especially if he was given the same run-up advantage US horses receive. Is it any wonder why the US racing industry is in such a poor state.
bgardiner2000 5 months ago
@bgardiner2000 This is textbook stuff. #1) Your statement was that Phar Laps' time equates to sub 2:00 and that only an idiot couldn't see "it". Thus, in your view, it is an equal time for a horse in "today's money. By arbitrarily moving a horse forward, through personally chosen premises, some 20 lengths is fallacious by it's very definition.
bbmtge 5 months ago
@bgardiner2000 #2 - To use false loigc in a statement and, when rebutted, state that the rebuttal lack logical comprehension is absolutely hilarious.
bbmtge 5 months ago
@bbmtge What's hilarious is your "I don't agree with your comment but I can't give an argument for why that is" approach to everything.
bgardiner2000 5 months ago
@bgardiner2000 AND...#3 - Your overuse of rhetoric in the hopes that someone will captitulate is...also...hilarious. The use of the terms "run-up" and unqualified remarks about U.S. racing simply shows stark prejudice.
bbmtge 5 months ago
@bgardiner2000 #3 - The use of terms such as "run-ups" and unqualified opinion about U.S. racing simply confirms nothing but prejudice.
bbmtge 5 months ago
@bbmtge This is text book stuff... I think you meant #4... 4 comes after 3. Let me ask you a question. If a tree falls in the forrest but no-one is there to hear it, does it misrepresent how long it takes to fall? Again, just because you don't know about it, doesn't make something untrue. Have a look at the Breeders Cup web-site... it is there in black and white... the best way to represent facts for people of questionable intelligence and significant prejudice.
bgardiner2000 5 months ago
@Kakariki77 That time on a grass track now (somewhat better surfaces than 80 years ago) with modern feeding, etc. as you mentioned compares favourably to Makybe Diva's Australian Cup record (1:58:73). Put them all at set weights and he is competitive against anything that's ever raced. Of course this is all speculation. The problem with the American brigade is that they don't believe that horses in ANZ are or were competitive. Despite the just released world rankings ;)
bgardiner2000 1 year ago
@bgardiner2000 Very interesting.. i must have a look at that just released world ranking.. i wonder wheather it was put together by our friends in America lol.
Kakariki77 1 year ago
@Kakariki77 The ratings are put together by the IFHA. I've already backed So You Think to be the top rated horse in the world at the end of next season ;)
bgardiner2000 1 year ago
AMAZING ! to run that fast from a completly different hard surface then australia,deffently one of the most amazing animal ever seen,pity i wasnt alive when he was racing:)
R.I.P Phar Lap !
MrWalto69 1 year ago