He actually had 46 poles earlier than that - his strike rate was almost 50% at one time. But his 92 and 93 cars were so undercompetitive his pole strikerate was knocked back to 40%. - Still way better than Schui's 27% though
Yup, I know that mate. I've been following Senna's career since the black lotus. I was just a little child back then, but I do know why Senna's stats are not even close of his real talent.
Had Senna chosen the Williams in 1991 (if I'm not mistaken) he would've been by far the most succesful driver in history when it comes to numbers. But he chose McLaren instead due to the affection he had to the team and to Honda.
Thats a great point mate- some idiots claim Senna had no loyalty and jumped ship to the best car whenever possible- but he gave McLaren 6 years- the last 3 of which they were in decline. His stats suffered badly due to sticking with mclaren as they declined. As you say- had he been at Williams 91,92,93 - even without team-orders like Schui had for so many years - he'd have been 5 times World Champ in his 10 year career.
His stats are still good - his combines pole and win score (strikerate) is actually better than Schui's - despite Schui's colossally superior advantages with cars, technical staff, team orders, reliabilty, longevity, etc etc. So there's no comparison - had they all been on equal playing fields (ie everyone in the same car) - Senna would have gone close to 10 times world champ in 10 years - in my eyes he was of that calibre - far and away the Master of them all, EVER!
Totally agree. I know you are not only a Senna fan but an admirer of a genuine talent, a true genius, like me. So I think you remember the time when Senna drove against Prost, Lauda, Watson, Rosberg, Reutemann, Hulme, Scheckter, Brabham, Moss, Hunt, Hill, Jones and many others (just take a look at this starting GRID!!!) where they all drove identical 190E 2.3-16 Mercedes cars and Senna won... and he was just a newcomer against all those great experienced champions.
Yes that was a prime example of his relative talent - not only that he beat the best past and present F1 stars as an unknown newcomer- but the fact that it was in saloon cars- outside of his area of direct experience- it would have been remarkable enough had it been a single-seater race with everyone in identical cars- but Senna grew up karting whereas most of those guys cut their teeth in saloon cars in the 70's- it's a subtely different driving technique yet Senna adapted like a duck to water!
Yeah, you're right... but that was Senna, a genius. Like Gugelmin said, talking about Senna (and I bet you already know that too): "If you take 26 double decker buses with 26 GP drivers on them and make a race at Silverstone, we know who will win, don't we?" .
HAHA yeah mate - i remember reading that in 1990 - i realised even the F1 supermen were in awe of Senna's supreme talent. He really was special. I was just down at the shops today and he's on the cover of Motorsport magazine again - 16 years later - the F1 world can't forget him.
Christ i wish he'd seen a decent end to his magnificent career - he deserved better.
You're right - when I was driving racing cars, including a Formula 1 car, I was secretly wishing I was someone like you - driving a mitsubishi lancer around town!
just for a moment we should forget about stats and remember for the greaatest driver that he is with an astonishing 41 wins 62 poles 6 monaco wins and his amazing monaco stats (c "monaco 88 video) and oh yeah 3 x world champ
Senna was the best. Then came Schumacher. Senna R.I.P. I thought you are a good in maths and statistics. Obviously you are not: statements can not prove (!) anything, its just personal opinion ....
Here we have an example of idiocy so large it is truly pitiful: Faced with a table of pure numbers, Mombert says "it's just opinion - doesn't prove anything"
What Senna fans hate is the minority of idiots mentally incapable of making the link between Schui's superficial stats and the circumstance of unparalleld privilege he was spoilt with - more GP than 799 of the 800 drivers ever, the best car more often BY FAR than anyone ever, most reliable cars BY FAR ever, hoarding of team resources whereas all other drivers share, the list goes on - yet idiots persist with the bullshit chant "7 titles = No. 1"
You are regurgitating ignorant crap from playstation wankers who dont understand REAL driving - mechanical failures are NOT driver error due to exceeding the limit you tool - explain exactly how you think a driving error causes a loss of hydraulic pressure? Hmmm - yeah - OWNED!
In the Senna era there was no refuelling - so the cars weighed a full 50% more at the start than at the end due to carrying an entire race fuel load. So fastest laps were invariably set right at the end of the race when the result was already settled - hence the leader rarely needed to set fastest lap. It was usually a consolation prize for a loser. You even had backmarkers scoring Fastest Lap simply due to pitting 3 laps before the end for new tyres - utterly meaningless.
There are no points for fastest lap either. And regardless, the existence of points is artificial and therefore arbitrary (and in fact in some competitions there are points for pole)- hell they could allocate points for fastest pitstop and it wouldn't mean jackshit, just as the race is not intrinsically more valuable just because there are points.
Man - you just don't get it. The driver does not "build his own team". The driver is an employee of the team - the team management builds the team and the designer and technical director build the cars.
Ralf Schumacher said just 1 month ago "The truth is the drive has very little to do with the car development"
Capiche!!!
Schui was along for the ride at Ferrari at a time when they decided to elevate their investment in F1 to unprecedented levels.
Schumi was effectively the only driver at Ferrari - they only fielded another car as it is demanded by the rules. But they didn't treat the 2nd drivers equally - Schui had the full effort behind him alone for all 11 of his years at Ferrari - a unique position in the entire field, - this seriously devalues all his statistics.
He'd be ranked higher in the list of all-time greats if he'd actually won less, but in a fair way. Too bad for him he made the wrong choice in how he wanted to go about his career (amassing statistics due to unparalleled privileges) - he could have been remembered as one of the all time top 3, but will have to settle for 7th (still commendable though). He made his bed and will have to lie in it.
Indeed - Senna's pole ratio of 40% to Schumi's 27% shows only the quantity of Senna's poles, but not the supreme quality:
Look at Senna's pole at Monaco 88 - 1.5 seconds faster than Prost in the same car, who shook his head and said he had no ideas - as his lap was fine. Senna though explained it as being achieved by an out of body experience - hovering outside his car watching himself drive - that's SUPERHUMAN talent!
Hey - I didn't say that - Senna himself said that - you would call it insane if he was slow - but as the guy was a WHOPPING 1.5 seconds faster than his team-mate Prost - you gotta take his explanation seriously.
Schui could have chosen a sportsman's path - but no - he went to the richest team that focussed all its efforts on him alone, while every other driver in the field had to share the teams resources. He'd actually be more respected had he actually won less but on equal terms with all the others, instead of relying on his privileged position to rake up meaningless stats!
OMG - you schui fanboys are not content to pretend that schui made ferrari successful (when rational thinkers clearly understand that it was due to the genius designer Rory Byrne combined with Ferrari's budget of $2500 million during Schumi's era), you now are extending the fantasy to claim that somehow "the spirit of Schui" lives on and still drives Ferrari!
HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA ROFL BARFING UP A LUNG OMG OMG OMG HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
As a team boss given a hypothetical chance to choose any of the 800 drivers in history - Schumi would still probably be in the top 7 (a great achievement for anyone and congratulations to him on that) but I'm afraid that he can never be considered higher than this due to the circumstances of his career [ie. the longest career (by far) and with the best cars (by far) and team orders and the only driver of the list above to have no mechanical failure problems.}
Well I agree with you on one thing - statistics can be as misleading as a bald faced lie. The best example is "Schumi won the most races ever so he is the best driver ever". It shows a depth of understanding that can only be excused in a primary-schooler. Even a high school student and certainly grown adults should easily be able to see behind the statistics.
It is blindingly obvious that Schumi's stats are not the best in any way - merely that after hanging around for the second longest career in history - a whopping 250 GP, most of that with the best cars ever (Rory Byrne's Ferraris), he accumulated his meaningless totals.
It is only fair to compare his stats to others at the same point in their careers:
After 100 Grand Prix;
Senna: 23 wins and a whopping 46 poles.
Schumi: a mere 3 more wins (26) (despite far better cars - the front-line Bennettons compared to Senna's pathetic Toleman and average Lotuses), but a woeful 29 less poles (17).
What are these? Senna's stats at his 100th GP?
LouieGee 2 years ago
yes mate thats right.
He actually had 46 poles earlier than that - his strike rate was almost 50% at one time. But his 92 and 93 cars were so undercompetitive his pole strikerate was knocked back to 40%. - Still way better than Schui's 27% though
mallamoozoo 2 years ago
Yup, I know that mate. I've been following Senna's career since the black lotus. I was just a little child back then, but I do know why Senna's stats are not even close of his real talent.
Had Senna chosen the Williams in 1991 (if I'm not mistaken) he would've been by far the most succesful driver in history when it comes to numbers. But he chose McLaren instead due to the affection he had to the team and to Honda.
LouieGee 2 years ago
Thats a great point mate- some idiots claim Senna had no loyalty and jumped ship to the best car whenever possible- but he gave McLaren 6 years- the last 3 of which they were in decline. His stats suffered badly due to sticking with mclaren as they declined. As you say- had he been at Williams 91,92,93 - even without team-orders like Schui had for so many years - he'd have been 5 times World Champ in his 10 year career.
mallamoozoo 2 years ago
His stats are still good - his combines pole and win score (strikerate) is actually better than Schui's - despite Schui's colossally superior advantages with cars, technical staff, team orders, reliabilty, longevity, etc etc. So there's no comparison - had they all been on equal playing fields (ie everyone in the same car) - Senna would have gone close to 10 times world champ in 10 years - in my eyes he was of that calibre - far and away the Master of them all, EVER!
mallamoozoo 2 years ago
Totally agree. I know you are not only a Senna fan but an admirer of a genuine talent, a true genius, like me. So I think you remember the time when Senna drove against Prost, Lauda, Watson, Rosberg, Reutemann, Hulme, Scheckter, Brabham, Moss, Hunt, Hill, Jones and many others (just take a look at this starting GRID!!!) where they all drove identical 190E 2.3-16 Mercedes cars and Senna won... and he was just a newcomer against all those great experienced champions.
LouieGee 2 years ago
Yes that was a prime example of his relative talent - not only that he beat the best past and present F1 stars as an unknown newcomer- but the fact that it was in saloon cars- outside of his area of direct experience- it would have been remarkable enough had it been a single-seater race with everyone in identical cars- but Senna grew up karting whereas most of those guys cut their teeth in saloon cars in the 70's- it's a subtely different driving technique yet Senna adapted like a duck to water!
mallamoozoo 2 years ago
Yeah, you're right... but that was Senna, a genius. Like Gugelmin said, talking about Senna (and I bet you already know that too): "If you take 26 double decker buses with 26 GP drivers on them and make a race at Silverstone, we know who will win, don't we?" .
LouieGee 2 years ago
HAHA yeah mate - i remember reading that in 1990 - i realised even the F1 supermen were in awe of Senna's supreme talent. He really was special. I was just down at the shops today and he's on the cover of Motorsport magazine again - 16 years later - the F1 world can't forget him.
Christ i wish he'd seen a decent end to his magnificent career - he deserved better.
mallamoozoo 2 years ago
I wish that too mate... everytime I think about him.
LouieGee 1 year ago
7 world titles senna didnt do that
oilysocket 3 years ago
Senna didnt have the best car produced by Rory Byrne and Ross Brawn for 7 years in 15 with slave team-mates for 11 years.
Capiche?
mallamoozoo 2 years ago
why don't you post some footage of your racing career?...
evofreak1304 4 years ago 3
Yeah I might.
mallamoozoo 4 years ago
You're right - when I was driving racing cars, including a Formula 1 car, I was secretly wishing I was someone like you - driving a mitsubishi lancer around town!
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
mallamoozoo 4 years ago
just for a moment we should forget about stats and remember for the greaatest driver that he is with an astonishing 41 wins 62 poles 6 monaco wins and his amazing monaco stats (c "monaco 88 video) and oh yeah 3 x world champ
pooedcunt 4 years ago
what a sad person you are. you erase all other comments and leave only your "right" ones... sad sennophiliac
mynkNX 4 years ago
You posted the comment on 5 of my fuckin videos - i left it on 1 of them along with my response and wiped the other 4 to save space. You're an idiot.
mallamoozoo 4 years ago
Senna was the best. Then came Schumacher. Senna R.I.P. I thought you are a good in maths and statistics. Obviously you are not: statements can not prove (!) anything, its just personal opinion ....
Mombert7 4 years ago
Here we have an example of idiocy so large it is truly pitiful: Faced with a table of pure numbers, Mombert says "it's just opinion - doesn't prove anything"
Enough said.
mallamoozoo 4 years ago
Table 2 (Rankings): POLE%, WIN%, COMBINED%
mallamoozoo 4 years ago
SENNA.................. 1, =3, 1
mallamoozoo 4 years ago
SCHUMACHER... 2, 1, 2
mallamoozoo 4 years ago
STEWART............ 3, 2, 3
mallamoozoo 4 years ago
PROST..................4, =3, 4
mallamoozoo 4 years ago
Table 1 (Scores): POLE%, WIN%, COMBINED%
mallamoozoo 4 years ago
SENNA....... 40.4 %, 25.5 %, 33.0 %
mallamoozoo 4 years ago
SCHUMACHER.. 27.2 %, 36.7 %, 32.0 %
mallamoozoo 4 years ago
STEWART..... 17.0 %, 27.3 %, 22.1 %
mallamoozoo 4 years ago
PROST....... 16.3 %, 25.6 %, 21.0 %
mallamoozoo 4 years ago
What Senna fans hate is the minority of idiots mentally incapable of making the link between Schui's superficial stats and the circumstance of unparalleld privilege he was spoilt with - more GP than 799 of the 800 drivers ever, the best car more often BY FAR than anyone ever, most reliable cars BY FAR ever, hoarding of team resources whereas all other drivers share, the list goes on - yet idiots persist with the bullshit chant "7 titles = No. 1"
mallamoozoo 4 years ago
You are regurgitating ignorant crap from playstation wankers who dont understand REAL driving - mechanical failures are NOT driver error due to exceeding the limit you tool - explain exactly how you think a driving error causes a loss of hydraulic pressure? Hmmm - yeah - OWNED!
mallamoozoo 4 years ago
In the Senna era there was no refuelling - so the cars weighed a full 50% more at the start than at the end due to carrying an entire race fuel load. So fastest laps were invariably set right at the end of the race when the result was already settled - hence the leader rarely needed to set fastest lap. It was usually a consolation prize for a loser. You even had backmarkers scoring Fastest Lap simply due to pitting 3 laps before the end for new tyres - utterly meaningless.
mallamoozoo 4 years ago
There are no points for fastest lap either. And regardless, the existence of points is artificial and therefore arbitrary (and in fact in some competitions there are points for pole)- hell they could allocate points for fastest pitstop and it wouldn't mean jackshit, just as the race is not intrinsically more valuable just because there are points.
mallamoozoo 4 years ago
Man - you just don't get it. The driver does not "build his own team". The driver is an employee of the team - the team management builds the team and the designer and technical director build the cars.
Ralf Schumacher said just 1 month ago "The truth is the drive has very little to do with the car development"
Capiche!!!
Schui was along for the ride at Ferrari at a time when they decided to elevate their investment in F1 to unprecedented levels.
Capiche!
schlickaz 4 years ago
Schumi was effectively the only driver at Ferrari - they only fielded another car as it is demanded by the rules. But they didn't treat the 2nd drivers equally - Schui had the full effort behind him alone for all 11 of his years at Ferrari - a unique position in the entire field, - this seriously devalues all his statistics.
mallamoozoo 4 years ago
He'd be ranked higher in the list of all-time greats if he'd actually won less, but in a fair way. Too bad for him he made the wrong choice in how he wanted to go about his career (amassing statistics due to unparalleled privileges) - he could have been remembered as one of the all time top 3, but will have to settle for 7th (still commendable though). He made his bed and will have to lie in it.
mallamoozoo 4 years ago
Indeed - Senna's pole ratio of 40% to Schumi's 27% shows only the quantity of Senna's poles, but not the supreme quality:
Look at Senna's pole at Monaco 88 - 1.5 seconds faster than Prost in the same car, who shook his head and said he had no ideas - as his lap was fine. Senna though explained it as being achieved by an out of body experience - hovering outside his car watching himself drive - that's SUPERHUMAN talent!
mallamoozoo 4 years ago
As I'm a doctor of medicine: that's not superhuman, that is insane .... . By the way: are you writing all this bullshit while kept in a sanatorium?
Mombert7 4 years ago
Hey - I didn't say that - Senna himself said that - you would call it insane if he was slow - but as the guy was a WHOPPING 1.5 seconds faster than his team-mate Prost - you gotta take his explanation seriously.
mallamoozoo 4 years ago
Schui could have chosen a sportsman's path - but no - he went to the richest team that focussed all its efforts on him alone, while every other driver in the field had to share the teams resources. He'd actually be more respected had he actually won less but on equal terms with all the others, instead of relying on his privileged position to rake up meaningless stats!
mallamoozoo 4 years ago
OMG - you schui fanboys are not content to pretend that schui made ferrari successful (when rational thinkers clearly understand that it was due to the genius designer Rory Byrne combined with Ferrari's budget of $2500 million during Schumi's era), you now are extending the fantasy to claim that somehow "the spirit of Schui" lives on and still drives Ferrari!
HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA ROFL BARFING UP A LUNG OMG OMG OMG HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
mallamoozoo 4 years ago
As a team boss given a hypothetical chance to choose any of the 800 drivers in history - Schumi would still probably be in the top 7 (a great achievement for anyone and congratulations to him on that) but I'm afraid that he can never be considered higher than this due to the circumstances of his career [ie. the longest career (by far) and with the best cars (by far) and team orders and the only driver of the list above to have no mechanical failure problems.}
mallamoozoo 4 years ago
Well I agree with you on one thing - statistics can be as misleading as a bald faced lie. The best example is "Schumi won the most races ever so he is the best driver ever". It shows a depth of understanding that can only be excused in a primary-schooler. Even a high school student and certainly grown adults should easily be able to see behind the statistics.
mallamoozoo 4 years ago
No they dont - Schuey figures were 100-26-17 pathetic in comparison to the Almighty Senna's 100-23-46
mallamoozoo 4 years ago
It is blindingly obvious that Schumi's stats are not the best in any way - merely that after hanging around for the second longest career in history - a whopping 250 GP, most of that with the best cars ever (Rory Byrne's Ferraris), he accumulated his meaningless totals.
mallamoozoo 4 years ago
It is only fair to compare his stats to others at the same point in their careers:
After 100 Grand Prix;
Senna: 23 wins and a whopping 46 poles.
Schumi: a mere 3 more wins (26) (despite far better cars - the front-line Bennettons compared to Senna's pathetic Toleman and average Lotuses), but a woeful 29 less poles (17).
The point can't be any clearer.
[PS:
Stewart had 27 wins after 99 GP
Clark had 25 wins after 72 GP
Fangio had 24 wins after 52 GP]
mallamoozoo 4 years ago