@ajohnson373 Sorry for the delay in replying. Your comment didn't flag me. I've just seen it.
You asked, Who am I to say that there is no god?
Who are you to say that there is a god? I don't believe that there is any such thing as a god because there is no evidence for one and if you look at the universe, there is nothing that needs a god to explain it's existence.
@Darwinsman then how was the world made? You may say the big bang theory, well how was that made? You may say two adams collided with each other and made the universe. Well how were the adams made? You see I can go on and on with this, so you may think God is a fairy tale but in reality it does make sense because for every creation there has to be a creator.
Even if you mean atoms "colliding" together, you only show your ignorance of quantum physics. Nothing collided.
Scientists already know what happened Pico seconds after the big bang right up to today and they are already close to achieving self-replicating cells from non-organic materials in the lab, none of which requires a creator.
Just because we don't yet fully understand everything yet, doesn't mean a god did it. Cont'd.
@dylanman6091 2/2. The problem that all religious people have to face, is that with every day that passes, science discovers more contradictions in the bible and also the true cause of more and more things previously believed to be in the purview of god, so their belief base is diminishing at a rapidly increasing rate. Yet they still cling desperately to the few fragments left to them, rather than embrace the wonder of true creation by natural means. They don’t realise their loss.
@Darwinsman Time, space, and matter are co-relative. According to the Big Bang model (the most scientifically supported model by far), they all came into existence at a particular "time", so that literally nothing existed prior. Tell me, from where does everything originate if nothing existed prior? There must be a cause: A timeless, spaceless, immaterial cause. Multiverse theory is not viable, scientifically or philosophically. -P.S. self replicating cells would still require a first cell.
@ambassadortotheKing 1/2. Nobody knows exactly what happened before the big bang, not even religions, although they claim precisely that.
Science has a number of theories about it, which it is pursuing with ever increasing success, as each Hypothesis is verified into a theory, but It's obvious that it doesn't involve any “timeless, spaceless, immaterial” deity.
In contrast, religion just says "God did it!" without a single shred of evidence to verify that statement. Cont'd.
@ambassadortotheKing 2/2. As for the first cell. Science also has a number of theories of how it was formed. It's now at the stage of trying to find out which one particular route of the many possibilities, was the one taken. It's possible that life started in a number of ways, not just one. Time will tell.
That’s what science does. It keeps looking. Religion merely postulates a conclusion then closes it’s ears and eyes to any other possibility. It is intellectual cowardice.
So Jesus Christ died for the Well-Meant Offer but he did not die for the sins of the people to whom this offer is extended? If that is not the very definition of insincerity, I frankly do not know what is. Piper wouldn't know the nature of the gospel if it bit him in a dark alley. The gospel is not a conditional offer of salvation to all of humanity, it is the proclamation of unconditional salvation to God's people, who by faith receive it as glad tidings.
For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, 1peter 3:18
WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU CALVINISTS??????!!! OBVIOUSLY JOHN PIPER HAS JUST MADE GOD A LIAR FOR NOT BELIEVING THE TRUTH OF WHAT HE SAYS IN HIS WORD!
@MmCorporate For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
@MmCorporate - I'm no Calvinist, but if "Christ died for the sins of all" means "all of humanity", then the unavoidable logical conclusion is that all men will be brought to God (universalism), or Jesus Christ is a failure, because he died for the sins of all but some of them still go to hell. So which one do you believe?
The really cruel thing about Piper's god is that even though he knows they will spurn this grace, he gives them it anyway. Then when they have spurned it, this is added to their list of crimes.
If Piper just stopped for one minute to think about that, he would realise that he is describing a god that is a manipulative, malicious, vindictive wanker.
@UrukEngineer First of all my dude Who is creation to question the creator? everything in life is common grace if not vanity so to say. some places, Mathew in the NT, when the disciples are preaching about Jesus, which is the highest grace that you can receive, learning about Jesus and the door to everlasting life, when the people that received the message would reject this grace, Jesus said, Verily i say unto you, that it will be more tolerable for Sodom & Gomorrah on the Judgment day for them.
Piper says that the reason sinning non-believers are still alive is that Jesus has given them the gift of grace. This grace is extended even to those that do not believe in god. Even though the all-knowing god knows that they will never turn to god/Jesus he, for some unfathomable reason elects not to kill them straight away but allows them to spurn this grace.
An alternative and simpler explanation is that there is no god.
@UrukEngineer Don't worry there will not be any injustice in the end for anyone,just because you do not understand or it may seem not right in your mind does not mean that God will not settle it in the end, all account will be settled. There are a lot of things that happen in the Earth that we wouldn't imagine God allowing. Did the devil create himself? everything is for a reason just because you don't understand it does not mean God made himself, Na make all men liars and God righteous amen.
@xelGuATAgAtO Sorry mate, you still haven't explained why an omniscient god (who knows all things now and to come) would offer grace to people he knows will spurn it...then punish them for not accepting.
Your god has a track record of making people do bad things then punishing them for it - as well you know. Now THAT is just pure evil. Why are you ignoring the facts?
@UrukEngineer We should not have anything we have right now. everything we have is a gift, did you make yourself, you came out of the womb empty handed and die like that as well. Let everyone say our God is evil, he has Always been a God of Benevolence Amen. God gives and God takes away, there is no injustice only grace get it. trying to make man center, instead of the creator of the place that we were given, in pride. How can you question who made all things? who are men to do this?plz hv faith
@xelGuATAgAtO "How can you question who made all things?" There is no evidence for your unsubstantiated belief.
The bible on the other hand gives plenty of evidence to prove, that if he existed, your god is a genocidal maniac. Why do you cherry pick the bits you want to believe and ignore the bad bits? Piper here does just that, he fails to understand just how horrid he makes god seem....good job he doesn't exist.
Quote: "Did Jesus' death do anything for non-Christians?"
Hardly, other than causing them grief.
If you really look at it, his death didn't even do anything for christians other than tie them to a guilt ridden form of mental slavery.
Saying that rejecting grace, which you never asked for nor wanted and is therefore being forced on you, will result in judgement against you, is moral blackmail.
It's no better than you being punished by the law for not accepting a drink if you're an alcoholic.
@Darwinsman Does John Piper look tied to a guilt-ridden form of mental slavery? He's not. I, as a Christian, also am not. Please don't make negative blanket statements about the effects of a belief system that you don't hold.
Piper could have been more clear. He's not saying that guilt is a result of rejecting grace. Guilt is a result of failing your purpose, namely serving as the physical representation of God in the universe. Rejecting grace just shows further irresponsibility in this way.
@smithiank If you'd actually read the question, it was:
"Did Jesus' death do anything for NON-CHRISTIANS?"
It has caused them grief. "Rejecting grace" has resulted in the past to more than just being told that you are "failing in your purpose", but often ended in you losing your life.
And as for Christians themselves. History throughout the centuries shows that Christianity is held together by the imposed guilt of being told from childhood that you are sinful and the fear of eternal damnation.
@Darwinsman What you specifically said was "his death didn't even do anything for christians other than tie them to a guilt ridden form of mental slavery." That's simply not true in any but the most abusive forms of Christianity.
It's a shame that the people have historically killed in the name of Christianity. It really is. It's a shame that my Christian brothers and sisters are tortured and butchered to this day. But in both cases, it's mostly politics that is to blame. Not religion.
If you want to have a purpose to your life – and I would encourage you so to do – then make damn sure it is a purpose decided by YOU, and not by witch-doctors and priests, (especially long-dead, primitive ones), and certainly not by the charlatan Piper!
Take all the responsibility yourself; don’t let anybody take on your faults or your mistakes, for that would be immoral. Have a good life; your own life; leave the world a better place than you found it if you can.
@apopyalips It's not about "receiving Christianity".. but, receiving Jesus Christ. Believing on Him.. having faith in and trusting in Him. No one enjoys coming out and telling others that members in their family may very well had perished. There is ONLY ONE God.. and He created us ALL.. no matter what our roots or from where we descend.
If the God you know is the creator of this world and the God of the Bible, He tells us to believe and receive Jesus Christ to be saved. Thats the ONLY WAY.
It's a personal decision for each and everyone of us not as a group. Christianity was in Africa starting in the middle of the 1st century (Egypt) and was spread to other parts of Africa over the years along with Islam, as well. The Word of God tells us that everyone will hear the Gospel and have a chance to make a decision for Jesus Christ. Please don't burden yourself with the fact that perhaps, some of your ancestors rejected God's Gift of Grace by Faith in Jesus Christ. Many of mine did also.
@candiceevans1 I don't think everyone understands all Biblical doctrine completely. The Bible says all we must do to be saved is to 'believe' on Jesus Christ :-)
you people don't know! stop pretending that you know what happens after death, you HAVEN'T A CLUE!! It's high time we put an end to this lying from religious fanatics.
But, if they aren't the "ELECT" few.... you mean to say that God would dare make such an offer?
Bottom line : How can a 5-point Calvinist read John 3:15-18.. and believe that Jesus died for only the "elect?"
It's neither Calvinism nor Armianism... but, both. They are "intertwined".... and God's Way of thinking and acting. A way that is far surpassing that of intellectual man. To believe only one camp is to disbelieve lots of Biblical truths.
piper was right, this is grace being offered 2 us at this moment, because this is makin me think about my eternity. but more than eternity it makes u want 2 luv god because of wat he's given 2 us that we surely do not deserve.
God is sovereign! God made all that is or ever will be! God purposed, for his own good pleaseur to give man free will! God purposed, for his own good pleasure to give man responsabilities including responding to God's own call.
God has done all of this, to deny that Man has free will, TO respond, IS to DENY God and God's good pleasure and sovereingty. To deny this says that God is not allowed to do as he pleases or is incapable of doing his own will.
@buzzbbird Everything you just said is not Biblical. All you do is reassert your philosophy, which means nothing. God gave man a self determinate free will to respond to God's call, yet I've been asking you for the las half a week to give me ONE explicit verse and you can't do it. His will is to SAVE HIS people. He will do so. "I will have mercy on who I mercy and will harden whom I will harden".
@ronathanedwards God has a PERFECT WILL... and God has a PERMISSIVE WILL. God can only work with willing hearts. The Gift of Grace has been offered and offered freely. It's just like any other "offering".. the person having been offered something has the choice to say "yes, please"... or "no thank you."
God loves us.. and love does not force, nor does it insist on it's own way :-)
@margovallen God has a prescriptive (what should be done) and his decretive will (what WILL be done). God can ONLY work with willing hearts? ummm verses please? Grace is FREE... to GIVE! And that is God's freedom, and that gift is election to take out a heart of stone and give it flesh IN ORDER to be saved. The fleshly/natural man will NEVER choose God, but what is according to his nature, which is to rebel against God's commands (like repent) he can not even UNDERSTAND them! 1 Cor. 2:14.
@ronathanedwards Haha! God's "prescriptive" Will would be that we repent and receive Christ in order for us to not perish and attain everlasting life. His "decretive" Will is that, should we refuse that offering, we will indeed perish. These are but, one each examples of the meanings of the terms you've provided :-)
@margovallen "prescriptive"= God commands you to obey. Decretive = decrees who will obey. Proof texting means nothing. The verses DESCRIBE peoples actions (narrative) it doesn't say WHY they did, you imply your presupposition without any scriptural support for the presupposition. The N.T. verses are those who are already born again. Please give me ONE EXPLICIT verse that says man in his natural state can/wants to obey God, UNDERSTAND God, or please Him.
@ronathanedwards Sorry, hon... not accurate. 'Prescriptive' is giving injunctions, directions, laws, or rules. A Dr. prescribes meds in order for us to recover and it will work if we choose to comply. "Decretive' has everything to do with what God will or will not do, if we do or don't do what is conveyed to us in His Word. A 'decree' is an established act.
Exodus 35:5 = 'whosoever is of a willing heart, let him...' 1 Chronicles 29:5 = 'And who then is willing to consecrate...'
Isaiah 1:19 = "If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land: 20 But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it." The passages I have provided prove that man must be willing.. exercise his own God-given free-will.
didactic verse = Acts 13:22 "................I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfill all my will."
@margovallen Again, Is 1:19 just says what they must do "if you are willing", it doesn't say "every man has the ability" THAT would be explicit. It doesn't say WHY some were and some were not willing, that's what I'm looking for. You are implying.
Act 13:22 narrative NOT didactic, Again it says David was a man after his heart, it doesn't say WHY he had that heart. Isn't there one verse that is explicit about man's ABILITY? Explicit would have the word ABLE, CAN, POWER in it, trying to help.
@ronathanedwards Blah blah blah! Why are some people desiring to open their hearts and believe the Gospel by faith.. while others are not? If it is explained properly and thoroughly, it should be a done-deal and everyone would become born-again believers. The scripture doesn't specifically say "every man has the ability".. but, thats where / why what I stated the Bible is an "equation of words".. remember? EVIDENTLY, every man must have 'had the ability' to do what was required.
@margovallen Whoops, made a big mistake Margo, people DESIRE to open their hearts? Can you please be more careful. It doesn't say that anywhere either. It is a "done deal" Those whom the father has elected will be born-again of THE FATHER. Why do some believe and others do not? I would LOVE to hear you explain that without man being the Subject of the sentence!Your "equation of words" is nullified however if there are EXPLICIT verses that say otherwise, which would mean your soteriology is wrong
@ronathanedwards "Hey Mr. Smith.. guess what, you've been elected our next president." .."Say what??.. I never had the desire to become president.. so, I never ran.".. "To bad, Mr. Smith.. you've been elected."
Jesus died for ALL... with the hope that none should perish. He offered the Gift of Grace. Those who desire salvation, believe by faith and repent... and at that time, God 'elects' to save them.
If Jesus died for ALL (John 3:16).. why would the "elect" be considered 'pre'-elected?
To say "Jesus died for the elect" is correct if utilized contextually. I heard the Gospel and the Holy Spirit tugged at my heart, prompting me to receive Jesus Christ. I yielded to and heeded the Holy Spirit and repented, receiving Jesus Christ. God had elected to save me.... I am saved, hence, Jesus died for the elect.
Purchase a horse... then, the cart. Not vice-versa :-)
@margovallen How can a heart of stone (which CAN NOT OBEY God) and a natural man (CAN NOT UNDERSTAND spiritual things) YIELD and repent (which is a Command of God)? The H.S "tugs" at your heart? The STONEY ONE? How bout the Holy Spirit GIVE YOU A NEW HEART IN ORDER to repent? Where in the Bible does it say that the H.S. tugs at hearts? Talk about reversing things!. If you are elect, God decreed it, Jesus Purchased it, and the H.S. APPLIES it, trinity in perfect harmony (and scriptural).
@margovallen You assume the person doesn't want to be president only to comply with your presupposition and imply force. That is not correct. You might want to actually study Reformed theology to at least understand the theology to make a better decision. It's about giving a new heart IN ORDER freely love God for who He is,where with your stone heart/fleshly mind/natural state used to hate Him.
Jesus died for EVERYONE? Do you believe in Substitutionary atonement?Then u must be an universalist
@ronathanedwards God does offer salvation to all men (Titus 2:11), for all are commanded to obey it in 2 Thessalonians 1:8, 1 Peter 4:17, and Acts 2:38. We to hold out the word of life (Philippians 2:16) to all. However, God chose to make people with the free agency to reject God’s purpose for themselves (Luke 7:30), and suffer consequences which are their own fault (Jeremiah 17:4).
@margovallen The reprobate always reject and MUST reject (according to their nature) the purpose of God (which is salvation) this doesn't say anything about irresistible Grace, but proves their depravity. God does offer salvation to all, we are commanded to obey. God does give man a free will .... I believe in all of that. Free Will doesn't mean you can choose everything, but it means you FREELY choose what you desire most (inclined to, have affections for).
@ronathanedwards We are commanded to BELIEVE in order to be saved. Our obedience is to the process of attaining salvation what we must do to be saved, ie. hear, believe by faith, confess, repent and receive. Thats Gods commands in order to be saved. Salvation is about RECEIVING, not giving. After we are saved, our obedience is about our reward in Heaven. 'Reprobates' are those who 'refuse' to accept. One 'becomes' a reprobate, they're not born. People are BORN spiritually depraved.
"Free-will" allows us to choose any / everything within the guidelines of our own capabilities. If not, it would not be free-will. Again, we have words and they must have meaning. "Free" is free. God's Gift of Grace is FREE. We don't/can't work for or earn it. Choosing the things of God will be done in accordance to His "rules" ie. we must be born-again to inherit the Kingdom of God and there is a specific way to become born-again. Man chooses his own ultimate destiny according to God's design.
@margovallen Wow.. allot of philosophy there... not scripture, that speaks volumes.
"Free will allows us to choose anything WITHIN THE GUIDELINES of... OUR CAPABILITIES" ... yes, and the Bible says "The Fleshly mind CAN NOT obey"... There's your "guideline". "The natural man CAN NOT understand spiritual things (the Gospel)... There's your guideline. The fleshly mind CAN NOT please God. There's your guideline. You do not believe BECAUSE you are not of my flock.There's your EXPLICIT guidelines ..
@ronathanedwards Just like my 'opinions'.. my "philosophy" is based on knowledge. And I not only have some Biblical 'knowledge'.. but, it within proper contextual guidelines. While the fleshly mind cannot obey 'completely'.. God has instilled in every one of us the need and "knack" for survival. After hearing the Gospel (however many times) man has the ability to understand and act, according to his understanding.. upon a means of survival. Believing by FAITH as he understands it at that moment.
Saying a 'fleshly' mind cannot please God.. is to say 'the mind of an unsaved person' cannot please God. When we come to Christ and become born-again, that in itself changes Gods whole outlook on that person. That person has come to Christ and is believing on Him... and that pleases God. So when, in reality.. that person does certain things that ordinarily would be displeasing to God, it is viewed under a different light.
God doesn't like anything about a person before that person is saved.
@margovallen How entrenched you are to your humanistic philosophy! Humble yourself and stop adding words to the EXPLICIT texts! You impose meanings onto implicit verses and you ADD words to EXPLICIT verses, what a shame. Paul said "The fleshly mind cannot obey" not "cannot obey 'completely' ".
He has the "ability to understand spiritual things" ? Really? Boy, you don't like Paul do you? 1 Cor 2:14 The natural person...things of the Spirit... is not able to understand them...
@ronathanedwards You are some piece of work, my friend.. theres no doubt about that. If I were not here for you, I suppose you'd be forced to find a fence-post to create arguments with? I have said that the Holy Spirit "works on" the hearts of people. You want to tell me "where does it say in the Bible the HS "works on"... yak-yak-yak.." Frankly, you have turned this dialogue into a pile of crap.. proving yourself to be an obstinate jerk!
According to your answer to why you are saved and the other isn't, you DO have to do something or BE a certain way. You have to be more serious than the other... right? That's what you said. So God's grace isn't free, it can be demanded. If I believe, GOD MUST save me. This is not Biblical Grace, the freedom is GOD'S to Give, not man's to receive. Believing is a VERB which describes a WORK. Faith isn't a work? Yes, it is... it's God's.. not ours, that why He has to give it to us Eph 2:8-9.
@ronathanedwards Gods Grace IS FREE. God says that we must 'believe'.. thats our active part and such a small part it is indeed. Belief costs us nothing. To not believe, costs us everything. Grace is free. Twist it, turn it, spin it, dance around it. Nothings going to change, other than the fact that I'm getting great practice dealing with obstinate people. God is not a liar and if He says "whosoever believes will be saved" then, He must save me.. YES! How can He not, if I do what He says?
If God says in His Word "if you do this and this, I'll do this" .. He has to stand by His Word. God is not a liar. So, He does have to honor hat He says He will do.. if we are doing what He says for us to do. In fact, when we pray for things we want and we have been walking in obedience, He has to give us what we pray for. John 14:13 "And whatsoever ye shall ASK IN MY NAME, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it."
@ronathanedwards Just as we bring "belief" to the table.. the very same goes for "faith".. as no one can actually 'believe' something without applying faith. To 'believe' something to be true, is to understand something to be true without having seen.. just like 'faith.' Belief and faith are synonymous. It doesn't take any of either to know we exist.
God may strengthen our 'faith' but, we supply faith. Jesus tells us that, if we had the faith the size of a mustard-seed, we could move mountains.
Or we could demand that a tree up-root itself and be planted elsewhere. So, if God supplies our faith, don't you imagine we could do just exactly the things He mentioned? Was he speaking in parables or do you think He was speaking in the literal sense? I'm thinking, literal. So, we.. evidently must be furnishing our own faith and belief.. because, even though mine has allowed me to "move mountains" in the metaphorical sense, I've yet to do such literally.
@margovallen Those are commands for us to be saved. It doesn't explain WHY some obey and some don't. Again, narratives and commands express WHAT must be done... they don't explain WHY some do it and some don't.
They can only BELIEVE if one is FIRST given a new heart. Can you refute that? Please give me a verse that explicitly refutes that. You won't find one...
1 John 5:1 says Everyone who believes HAS BEEN BORN of the Father.. The "being Born" happens BEFORE the belief. That is EXPLICIT.
@ronathanedwards Being born of the Father is what, exactly? Being spiritually born-again. So, we are born-again in order to believe? The goal is to become born-again... not believe. We must be born-again to inherit the Kingdom of God. Are there some who 'believe' but, are not born-again? If so, do they go to Heaven?
We believe by faith, firstly.... after hearing the Word. THEN, we can move forward from there. atheists don't even 'believe'.. but, they must be born-again in so they will believe?
But, wait! Jesus died for only a few, His "elect" privileged and all the rest are to be cast into eternal damnation for no fault of their own? They're not given the same opportunity as all the rest? You're corrupting John 3:16 by giving us a lesson on the real and true definition of "world" and "whosoever." Truth is, God chose the WORLD (the people) before the foundation of the world, to be saved. In His Sovereignty and good pleasure, gave us free-will to choose. God has no respect of person.
@margovallen Everyone deserves hell margo. All are under the wrath of God JUSTLY. God is the one that has self-determinate free-will. God is under NO obligation to give His grace "election" to anyone. He is free to save ONE or millions or billions, that doesn't mean He is not just if He doesn't save one more or one less. Grace is non-justice, not un-just. God chose the WORLD before the foundation? Verse please? Eph 1:4-11? He chose US, not everyone, to be holy and blameless.
@ronathanedwards Everyone does deserve Hell... so, you're preaching to the choir! You're so into all of your so-called "grammar"..... did it occur to you that proper names begin with capital letters?
Don't be foolish.. God gives us free-will. We hear the Gospel.. the Holy Spirit "works on".. "speaks to".. "softens".. "deals with".. "opens".. "makes receptive".. our hearts. Some repent (experience a change of mind and turn to God).. while others do not. We've all been given the same opportunity.
Ephesians 1:4-11 can be taken out of context just like many other passages of scripture, as you have proven. Question : IF 2 Peter 3:9 tells us that 'the Lord is long-suffering to us NOT WILLING that ANY should PERISH, but that ALL should come to repentance'.. who are you to say He died for only the "predestined", "chosen", "elect".. in the context in which you place these terms? You try to "break the gnostic code" of John 3:16 complicating the heart of the Gospel.. in which, God says not to do.
Paul is speaking to believers in Ephesians 1:4-11 after the fact.. telling them how we should behave as believers. The whole Calvinism thought revolves around 'certain' people have been chosen. When a person asks.. 'why do some come to God and others don't', the only answer per the Calvinists is ..'they were the chosen'.. however, there are NUMEROUS passages of scripture that tell us "believe on Christ and be saved".. "whosoever" believes will be saved.
@margovallen All those verses don't say WHY, again you imply meaning into "all those texts". I bring up explicit verses WHY and you just repeat a mantra, ignore the verses, and run to implied verses that already have been explained properly and refutes your theology.
@margovallen Yet you go running to implied verses and leave Ephesians untouched. The point of the Ephesians verse was talking about WHO was predestined before the foundation of the World, you completely ignore that point (because my point was correct) and you fly off to different verses that don't speak of election at all! I know it's hard to stay on one point when you have to foundation that is solid, but could you try?
2 Peter 3:9 ? Who is he talking about? Follow the pronouns! US ! !
There's your humanistic mantra again... I know if a lie is repeated enough, it will become believable. But not in theological debate where truth is scrutinized.
God gives the same opportunity? So, salvation doesn't depend on Him but on the almighty will of man! What verse was that again? Oh yeah, "Salvation is of the MAN".... lol
@margovallen The goal of a Christian is Sanctification. One CAN NOT believe unless He is born again. You can use philosophy all you want, I'll stick to what the Bible says, and it says that one is Born Again, given a new heart IN ORDER to believe. You might want to actually read the Bible for what it says grammatically and not what your presuppositions are imposing onto the text.
"We BELIEVE by FAITH" ? ... "pisteuw" (in the Greek) Belief and faith are the same word! We have faith by faith?
@ronathanedwards HELLO?????? ARE WE NOT SANCTIFIED WHEN WE BECOME BORN-AGAIN?????? WE ATTAIN RIGHTEOUSNESS, JUSTIFICATION, SANCTIFICATION WHEN BE BECOME BORN-AGAIN!!!!!
THE GOAL IS TO BECOME BORN-AGAIN.. JUST LIKE I SAID!!!!!
@margovallen Born-again doesn't mean "being saved" "choosing Jesus", it refers to the act of regeneration by God. This is NOT a "goal" it is the act of the Holy Spirit pertaining to opening ones eyes to see the kingdom of God, to give understanding to know the gospel and giving a new heart to believe. Sanctification IS NOT attained completely in this life, it is an ongoing process till death. We don't attain righteousness or justification, it is given to us by the merit of Christ.
@margovallen "Let your speech always be gracious" ... I wish you will be able to understand this verse one day along with the verses that explicitly refute your theology. I suggest to you Wayne Grudem's "Systematic Theology" book. It would help you out tremendously.
If you want to say I'm the "dumb ass" here, fine. It was the ass that REBUKED the prophet for his iniquity and forbad his madness. I guess that makes you the prophet in this scenario. ;-)
@ronathanedwards Belief and faith go together... but, are not exactly the very same meaning. We believe with our mind.. faith with our heart. Beliefs are ideas and concepts. Beliefs are not absolute truths.. but, opinions 'about' reality.. not 'reality' itself. Belief = relative truth. Faith = absolute truth.
Gotta be born-again in order to believe?... haha! So, what about all the people who 'believe' in God.. but, are not born-again?
@margovallen Do you even read what I say? It is the SAME WORD! They are exactly the same concept. You're just confused.
"ha ha" doesn't refute 1 John 5:1. Funny how I refute your verses with exegesis, and all I get is "ha ha"... nice...
Those who SAY they believe are professing, they have a worldly understanding of Christianity, but their belief isn't spiritually, in reality, a true belief. They are not saved, they were not given a new heart to truly believe. 1 John 2:19:1 Tim 3:5-12 James 2:22
@ronathanedwards Jesus DID die for everyone. And I am in no way for or fashion a Universalist. Jesus did the work for all.. once and for all.
We repent (have a change of mind) and come to Christ.. by faith. He works on our hearts after we trust in Him and get saved. Thats instantaneous.. and the improvements done to our hearts usually take time. But, God is the one who makes the improvements as He deems necessary. He does it all.. we just have to be willing to be changed.
@margovallen Where does it say "He works on our hearts"? The scripture says He takes out a heart of stone and gives you a heart of flesh... it's either or.. there's no partly stone/flesh heart. Understand the concept, the STONE heart hates God, the fleshly heart loves God. For one who has a stone heart, to be saved, must first be given a flesh heart to desire what a fleshly heart desires! 1 John 5:1 Those believing HAVE BEEN born of the father. Been born is perfect tense, believing is present.
@ronathanedwards It doesn't matter where it says it. It just does. Are you a mature person who really knows something about God's Word or a little kid who questions everything, wanting someone to guide your finger to the scripture? I would have to look it up, myself and it most likely doesn't use those exact words. Goodness! You waste much energy with your little antics. I may get frustrated, even weary.. but, you'll not break me down.
The "heart of stone.. heart of flesh" thing is SYMBOLIC.
Our hearts change because they're changed by God. He works on our hearts. Like I stated before, sometimes it's instantaneous, sometimes it's a process over time. But, when a person initially comes to Christ desiring to be saved, not only is that 'desire' a tell-tale sign that God has already been working on that persons heart but, God will elect to save that person.. if that person drops dead moments afterward, they goes to Heaven. Gods work on a persons heart is not complete prior to salvation.
@margovallen God doesn't "work" on someones heart, He might prepare it, but still in that state the person is DEAD and BLIND, and Natural, and has a heart of STONE. IN ORDER for a person to see the truth and believe it, God doesn't CHANGE a person's heart, He give them a NEW heart to BELIEVE! It's called regeneration. God's work of giving a person a new heart IS complete prior to salvation. To be saved, one has to believe. To believe one has to be born again!
@ronathanedwards We can say "work on".. "deals with".. "speaks to"... "touches".."softens".. what do you want from me? Seems you pick and choose when you wanna get all literal. Do you think in your own mind that you are something other than human? Newsflash! Heart of stone getting replaced with a heart of flesh is METAPHORICAL. God doesn't cut us open and take out a heart of stone.. our hearts are make of flesh. It's all symbolic, sweetie!
We believe by faith FIRST... to become born-again.
@margovallen You mock the language, yet you didn't answer the question. It IS metaphor, representing ... WHAT? A heart of stone represents a heart that is of the natural, fleshly minded, DEAD spiritually person. A heart of flesh is ALIVE and obeys and understands God.
"We believe by faith? lol same word... you're making stuff up! You are going completely AGAINST God's Word. 1 John 5:1 says we are Born Again with the result being belief. Does the embryo decide to be fertilized? LOL !
@ronathanedwards I mock the language? You are upsetting me. You will stop at nothing to prove your false doctrine. You're quite the insensitive and hurtful individual. You're surely no gentleman.. and I'm questioning your Christianity. Seems more like "Religianity".. "Phariseeianity?" You're a Calvinist. Gotta make everything fit.
Embryos don't get fertilized, Einstein! Eggs do.. which produces an embryo. What exactly do you know anything about?
@margovallen Your inability to grasp even the slightest parallel amazes me. I'm PROVING my point of the grammar in 1 John 5:1 ! You are correct, "Einstein" ! A fetus is the RESULT !! That is why it is GROWING! The CAUSE is the fertilization the RESULT it a FETUS... a growing "being". Thus all growing fetus' are the RESULT of the fertilization. But they didn't start GROWING (present tense) UNTIL the fertilization process HAPPENED. Same with 1 John 5:1 "believing" happens AFTER "regeneration"
@ronathanedwards Oh... now it's "He might prepare it"... haha! What happened to us having heart transplants done on us... being born with hearts of stone and God totally replacing it with a heart of flesh?... LOL!
Thats what I was saying. God "works on" our hearts. And you CHOOSE when you care to get literal or symbolic.. GRAMMATICAL (as it were)... and practical.. doing your little dancing numbers around truths I've provided... and never landing on anything John Calvin says not to.
@margovallen God in His providence brings His elect to where he gives them a new heart for belief. It's not that difficult to understand. The point is, He first must give them a new heart IN ORDER for them to obey. "I will give them one heart, and a new spirit I will put within them. I will remove the heart of stone from their flesh and give them a heart of flesh, THAT they may walk in my statutes and keep my rules and obey them.
The word THAT conveys PURPOSE. New heart SO THAT they obey.
@margovallen Heresy, huh? Funny you should mention that. What YOU believe has been considered by EVERY Church council to be heretical. Do you even know WHY there is a protestant Church? Do you know you are arguing on the Roman Catholic side?.... Ummm.. I guess I should have asked, that might change things... are you a Roman Catholic? If you are, then you are consistent with your bad theology. If you for some reason call yourself a protestant, then you are inconsistent with being a protestant.
@margovallen Margo it DOESN'T say it. NOWHERE If you look at my page you'll find that I know the Bible somewhat, but that doesn't matter. I have the most powerful Bible Software made, believe me, nowhere does it say "God works on people's hearts, that's been indoctrinated into you.I don't have to break you,but God's Word never comes back void ;-)Symbols are used to describe something, can a DEAD man by himself come back to life? Can a BLIND person see the truth or does he need new eyes first?
@ronathanedwards I'm in no doubt that you know a lot about the Bible. You can quote scriptures but, you take them out of context a lot.. often suggesting the Bible "says" something that it has merely printed on the pages. Where'd you score that illustrious software, a Calvinism site? Ditch the software.. get into the Word. If you're instructing those who have never cracked a Bible, you can say anything, they may believe you. I am fairly well-versed in the Bible.. not so easily fooled.
@ronathanedwards Those believing have been born of the Father... true. They firstly, believe... then, become born-again of the Father. Hence, those who believe have indeed been born of the Father.
Once we are born-again, that does not mean we will never have anymore human, fleshly desires. Anyone who says they are without sin, makes God out to be a liar.
While being born-again is perfect tense.... so is believing.. for those who continue in their belief ; present, past and future perfect :-)
@margovallen Unfortunately you have turned the grammar on it's head. (Especially in the Greek).
"They firstly believe... THEN become...." WRONG WRONG WRONG.... The PURPOSE of the perfect tense is to show an action that happened BEFORE the present tense verb with the EFFECTS of the perfect tense being the present tense verb.
"All embryos growing in the womb HAVE BEEN fertilized by the father"... what happened first? The embryo's growing CAUSED the fertilization? LOL Understand the analogy!
@ronathanedwards You're a Calvinist. You'd much rather believe doctrines of MEN.. in lieu of what the Bible tells us. We hear the Word, believe by faith, repent, receive. If you know anything about the Bible then, you know there are several passages of scripture that touch on the fact that 'man plays a role in their salvation'.. as man must desire salvation.
"All embryos growing in the womb HAVE BEEN fertilized by the father"...??? ... Scripture please. Since when do embryos need fertilizing?
@margovallen You follow your doctrines of MEN, margo, the humanist philosophers, that have placed themselves into the church. So far all you've done is give me nothing but a mantra "man has free will" and not ONE explicit verse proving so. You can't exegete one of my verses without adding words to it, I just go by what the Bible EXPLICITLY says, I don't change a word.
Embryos GROWING. O.k. FETUS' then! Scripture? It's a parallel to 1 John 5:1.The being born happens 1st, it's the CAUSE of faith
@ronathanedwards No, I don't assume anything. Whether the person in question desires to become president or not is only incidental to the analogy.. the scenario I provided to TRY to convey a point to someone who is fighting tooth and nail not to receive.. or at least, not give me the pleasure of knowing you received it. Debate etiquette.The gist of it is the fact that people aren't elected until they have the desire to be. Wanna be saved? Come to Christ and believe, God will elect to save you.
If God so loved the WORLD, that He gave His only begotten Son to be the ultimate sacrifice for mankind and WHOSOEVER believes is saved. That tells me that God has given man free-will to make choices over his own life.. even into eternity. We don't come into this world as 'children of God' we 'become' children of God. Most "choose" to reject Gods gift of grace. Adam and Eve 'chose' to eat of the tree God told them not to partake of. If He didn't give man free-will, man would be 'saved drones.'
@margovallen You are adding that to the text. John 3 doesn't speak of free will at all. You are eisegeting the text (interjecting meaning that isn't intended by the author). Did you know "whosoever" isn't in the Greek? It's a translation into the English that is vague when misunderstood (which the English does all the time). It's a substantive "All the believing ones"... He died ... for all the believing ones. Do all believe? Nope.
We become children of God... how? 1 John 5:1 God regenerates us
@ronathanedwards So, you're saying (or insinuating, anyway) that the only people who truly have salvation are those of whom choose to study the Bible just as a scholar or interpreter would? Who cares whats in the Greek or the Hebrew or the Aramaic? I just eat the food, not necessarily speak the language.
Just like I stated to you before.. per Biblical knowledge (even though, you're interpretation is off kilter) vs SALVATION? Aren't we suppose to approach it as little children? Humble yourself!
@margovallen " ''' WHO CARES"" what's in the Greek" ...... and then later you have the nerve to say "humble yourself"! .... Who's the one who really needs to be humbled margo... you don't care about what was actually written or listen to people who have humbled themselves to learn it, and try to TEACH you what it says, but I'm the one needing humbling... o.k...
My interpretation is not off kilter it's extremely accurate, because actually that verse is very simple, grammatically.
@ronathanedwards W-H-A-T-E-V-E-R!!! Ask me if you think I am one tiny bit surprised the fact, you're taking what I said out of context(?)... why wouldn't you, right? Anyone of whom takes the Word of God out of context.. gambling with their own immortal soul, would naturally choose to miss a particular point very well made.
Just because you're vast pridefulness and ego refuse to allow you to express 'points taken' does not in any way mean that there are / were none made.
@margovallen I haven't taken anything out of context, if anything, I'm trying to get to focus ON a context and what it explicitly means and not force meanings into a text.
@ronathanedwards John 3 says "WHOSOEVER" believes..... so, you've still not learned from all this that, believing is a choice? It may as well say 'whosoever chooses to believe'.... same thing.
You're tinkling against the wind arguing with me on all this doctrinal stuff. You're losing and don't have the good sense to know it. Darn that pridefulness!
@margovallen I have had debates with atheists, mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, and Synergists like yourself. And I don't have to change my theology at all. You on the other hand would have a major problem with an atheist concerning evil. With a seasoned atheist, he would destroy your arguments and have you trying to explain that evil came from "thin air"... because that's where your theology leaves you. A mile wide but an inch thick....
@ronathanedwards I explain to them about Lucifer pushing his New-Age philosophy onto the masses, ie. The Sons of God aka Angels in Heaven and causing great discourse, 1/3 of them buying into what he was selling causing a war, he and his cohorts getting kicked out of Heaven. Those fallen ones are whom make up satans army of demons. Many of whom, mated with the "daughters of men" and the offspring is whats known at the Nephilim, whom wrecked havoc and corruption on all the earth hence, the Flood.
@ronathanedwards He didn't die for but, a few believers.. and afterward, many came to believe. "For God sent not his Son into the WORLD to condemn the world; but that the WORLD through him MIGHT be saved." Does it say He came to save the elect? If He came to save His "elect".. and we play no part in our salvation at all, why does it say "MIGHT" be saved? If Jesus died only for the elect, the elect WOULD be saved.. not MIGHT be. But, it says WORLD, not elect. And it says MIGHT, we must cooperate.
@margovallen "Might" in the English is a good translation, but unfortunately the English word conveys "uncertainty" (which you have taken) but not certainty. However, the Greek word is "subjunctive" which, if it is not in a conditional clause (which this ISN'T), means certainty. Uncertainty would be conveyed in the Greek in the "Optative". There is no "uncertainty" that Jesus will save, He came to SAVE His people, not make them savable (thus uncertain that He would save ANY). Nice try.
@ronathanedwards John 3:15-16 tells us how to become Children of God. 1 John 5:1 tells us who are born of God. The former = before the fact... the latter = after the fact.
Jesus did die for all of the believing ones.... as well as all of the unbelievers, also. His Blood had to be shed for remission of sins. The Gospel isn't preached to save believers.. they're already saved. But, preached to save unbelievers. Jesus died for ALL.
@margovallen God doesn't elect to SAVE, He elects people. He elects people to save. People is the direct object.
Using your analogy, it would be like us right now "electing" Obama for president... what's the point? He's already president? The election would be useless with no purpose. God's election happened before time, He decreed it, and predestined it. Those who are elect before time Christ died for, the Holy Spirit causes to be Born Again in order for you to believe. 1 John 5:1.
@ronathanedwards If Christ died for the WORLD, He died for ALL. Your 'Obama' analogy makes no sense. Which, btw is easy to do if you don't know what you're talking about to begin with. You're trying to "wing-it" with me.. and doing a terrible job.
Gods election happened before time.. He elected to save us, and gave His only Son as the sacrifice. WHOSOEVER (a special group of people He preordained, elected or had chosen ahead of time? Or WHOSOEVER?) BELIEVES in Him shall not perish........."
We believe by faith firstly.. then, we are born-again. The destiny is to have Salvation aka become born-again. We don't become born-again in order to believe. Belief is something we bring to the table. It's not a great feat to believe by faith. How do little children believe the unbelievable so easily? It's faith. And thats all God asks of us in order to be saved. Repent and believe.
@margovallen The "World" is a Jewish idiom margo... As a Jew, when talking about Jews, they would say Jew or Israel. When talking about non-Jews they would say Gentiles or Greeks, or nations.... When discussing Jews and Gentiles (as a group of many or a whole) they would say WORLD. This RARELY means every individual. When the pharisees saw Jesus coming to Jerusalem and said "Look the WORLD has gone after him".. Every person in the World was in Jerusalem?
@ronathanedwards You're grasping at straws. All of a sudden you're becoming 'idiom-minded'.. and I've been utilizing idioms since our correspondence.
""As a Jew, when talking about Jews, they would say Jew or Israel. When talking about non-Jews they would say Gentiles or Greeks, "" really??? Goodness!!! Are you sure its not the opposite?... haha!
"World" actually is "those of the world".. the worldly. Jesus died for the "WORLD".. the worldly.. the lost. Has more than one usage/meaning :-)
@margovallen You've been implying. I've been explicit. Idioms are to be understood by the intent of the author and not implying. "Really, goodness" is your answer? Okay, but it doesn't refute the language of the culture. "The World" is a noun "Worldly" is an adjective. You are equating the two irresponsibly. Jesus (a Jew) was talking to Nicodemus (a Jew). Nicodemus knew EXACTLY what Jesus meant, God just didn't just come for Jews, but Jews and Gentiles (The World). But not all of them!
The Obama analogy is perfect. You just don't want to accept it. Predestination occurs "after" the fact? lol, you might want to understand the word "predestinate". I'm not winging it, I'm just going along with scripture, you're the one having to interject philosophy and do nothing but imply everything. I've mentioned Rom 8:7-8 and 1 Cor 2:14 many times, and you conveniently just run off to another rabbit trail...
Those WHOM he foreknew He predestined, called, justified and glorified !
@ronathanedwards Grace comes from God but, faith is mans responsibility. God "foreknows" everybody.. since before the beginning. So, if He 'predestines' those Hes foreknown.. and called, justified and glorified them.... it must be that ALL are going to Heaven... and we both know this is not correct. So, being that God foreknows all.. and He calls all.. but, man has to cooperate. The stain of original sin has made it so that, even though His Will is that none should perish, more do than not.
Why is that the case? It is simply because God has indeed given man free-will to choose. Not because God had 'elected' a select number of people in the world to be saved and the rest would perish. Does that really make sense to you? Jesus did it all, starting on the way to the Cross, while on the cross and through His ascension. He did it for everyone and if only one individual had gotten saved, His mission would not had been in vain.
The whole world was lost.. why would He die for only a few?
@margovallen There's your mantra again, and you think that actually proves something, but your mantra hasn't been supported yet. Until you can support it with explicit scripture, your "God gave man self determinate free will" mantra is worthless.
He died for the MANY! By the way Many is LESS than ALL. Chew on that for awhile.
@margovallen Wrong margo, God "foreknows" (verb) "knowing" as a verb portrays an intimate special relationship. Adam "knew" Eve and she conceived... God's "foreknowledge" is a NOUN that portrays impersonal knowing of facts, events, actions.
If you use foreknowing like foreknowledge in this verse you would be correct in saying that God then WOULD be saving everyone (and then you actually used a verse explicitly, yeh!) But God's steadfast love is for those WHOM (personal) He for-loved (verb).
@ronathanedwards Whatever! 1 John 5:1 says "Whosoever believes Jesus is the Christ, is born of God..and every one that love him that begat love him also that is begotten of him." Has nothing to do with being born again in order to believe.... and everything to do with whosoever believes He's the Christ is born of God. "Belief" is a choice. We choose to believe.
@margovallen Saying "it has nothing to do with it" has to be backed up in the text. "Born Again" means "fertilized by" "generated by" The word "generated" actually comes from the word "gennaw" which is the word used here in the verse!!! The TENSE, margo of the verbs dictate the intended meaning of the author. Those "believing" (present tense) HAVE BEEN BORN (perfect tense). Look up what the perfect tense conveys margo... It conveys a CAUSE in the past,With a RESULT in the present. Result/ faith
@ronathanedwards I have already stated the fact that, the Holy Spirit speaks to our hearts.. tugs at our heartstrings.. Jesus stands at the door of our hearts and He knocks. IF we open the door and allow Him to come in, He will. Many (most) ignore therefore, disallow Him to come in. Many resist the Holy Spirit.
You know lots about the Bible.... so, you know the Holy Spirit can be resisted.. and will eventually give up on an individual and allow that person to go his / her own way.
@margovallen Your last statement is circular, you keep saying the same thing. This time you just added some things and changed "I chose/I willed" to "I opened the door".... This does not answer the question of WHY you did those things and the person next to you didn't.
The Holy Spirit "gives up"? Your FOUNDATIONAL beliefs are based on language like that? No scripture? Where does it EVER say the H.S. "gives up"? God accomplishes ALL the PURPOSES. What's the PURPOSE of the H.S. in this?
@ronathanedwards So, now you're going to pick apart how I word thing? I get it. You're not trying to understand what I am trying to convey. Linguistic semantics.
@margovallen Nope, it's logic. Your just saying the same thing but wording it differently, the problem is the statement you keep saying (and changing) doesn't answer the question, that's the problem.
What I'm trying to get you to see is if you did something while the other didn't, there is a difference of VIRTUE between you and the other. If God does the SAME thing for both of you, you merited something because you are smarter, more pious, more humble than the other. You have something to boast
@ronathanedwards God and the things of Him surpass 'logic' and the reason I acted on God's call and others didn't is because, I took it seriously I took God at His word and frankly, didn't care to spend eternity in Hell. And while that is still true, I have come to fall in love with God more over the span of my walk.. and appreciate Him for what He has done for me.. taking my sins upon Himself in so that I won't have to suffer Gods judgment in Hell :-)
@margovallen God and the thing of Him "surpass logic"? That doesn't mean our arguments are to be illogical. God is perfect, His "logic" is perfect, He is a God of order and so is his Word. That's why it is inerrant.
So, the difference between you being saved and the other person is "You took it seriously" and the other person didn't. Therefore, you have reason to boast in your salvation because it was your seriousness that saved you. You want to say that, huh?
@ronathanedwards You've made several "subtle" references to my being spiritually / intellectually incompetent. Shows your own vast insecurities toward women who may know a thing or two about the Word of God. I knew exactly what the Bible speaks of per women teaching men... and why.
I get my info from the scriptures... God, the Father.. Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit. Surely not from the likes of John Calvin. He was just a man.. as were ALL those guys. Who says he was closer to God than I?
I should've said "Human-logic"... and intellect. In other words, if you're doing a book-report, you can utilize your intellect per the Bible. But, getting it in us making it part of us and accurately interpreting it, having the Holy Spirit is paramount. Who says John Calvin or Jacobus Arminius had the Holy Spirit? Of course, Calvinists and Arminians say they did. But, I know I'm saved and when I read God's Word and compare it to the doctrines of these people, I see discrepancies on their part.
@margovallen So far all your arguments fall lock and step with the Arminians.
I see MASSIVE amounts of discrepancies with Arminius and I see some with Calvin. So? That doesn't mean anything. John Calvin's understanding of Scripture, as far as the Ordo Salutis is concerned, is much more accurate than Jacobus' and definitely more than you! Both men subjected themselves to teachers as scripture commands, you should also and if anything not to think oneself higher than a Church father!... wow!
@margovallen No, you are inferring that yourself. I don't think you are intellectually incompetent, that actually might show your insecurities, not mine.
You get your information through the Word, yes, but you have been indoctrinated by teachings of men, if you say you haven't, you are being extremely dishonest with yourself. Pastors, teachers, radio preachers, books, commentaries... they all influence your understanding..... and they are all "men".
@ronathanedwards I usually say what I wanna say. So, who is trying to put words in whose mouth? And you're a mind-reader too? Holy Smoke!
I yielded to the Spirit and received salvation by faith. End of story! You're trying every way way in the world.. every angle possible, to back up the philosophy of John Calvin.
Forget about him and get into the Word and allow God to show you first-handedly.. in lieu of using someone elses doctrine as a guide-line. Makes no sense!
@margovallen Margo, no matter what word you use, it is still you being more virtuous than the person that didn't get saved. You are saved because of your virtue and merit salvation because of it, glory to Margo!
@ronathanedwards Logic, according to whom? Dr. Spock??? I change the way I say something because you seem to be learning-challenged. The meaning, I've not changed.
All of what you're trying to dig out of me doesn't matter. I don't care if I have any bragging rights or not... I have no desire to boast about anything.. especially my own salvation.
You complicate things.. and you'll not lead many to Christ that way. When they perish.. and they will, you will have helped them to do so. Sadly.
@margovallen The problem is Margo, it doesn't matter if you boast in it or not, Paul said one does not have a FOUNDATION or REASON to boast, you however DO have a foundation or reason to boast whether you boast or not, that is, you were smarter, more serious, more logical than the one not saved, glory to Margo!
No margo, you might get a bunch of "decisions" for people, yet in reality they went away from you more deceived about their salvation than when they came to you.
Wow...
This question could be easily, and even better, more TRULY answered if he followed what the Bible says.
Calvinism is based on man's philosophy, while Arminianism is based on the Bible. :D
TeaPartier22 23 hours ago
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awhitesoul2012 1 week ago
@Darwinsman Who are you to say there is no God? who are you to say such things? just ask the question Who am i to say there is no God? you will see.
ajohnson373 2 weeks ago
@ajohnson373 Sorry for the delay in replying. Your comment didn't flag me. I've just seen it.
You asked, Who am I to say that there is no god?
Who are you to say that there is a god? I don't believe that there is any such thing as a god because there is no evidence for one and if you look at the universe, there is nothing that needs a god to explain it's existence.
Darwinsman 1 week ago
Jesus never died for anyone's sins. It is just a re-interpretation of the old Hebrew practice of scapegoating.
But then again, interpretation and re-interpretation by humans is the only way the bible makes any sense at all.
Funny that, as it is supposed to be the infallible word of god, but needs human interpretation to make sense.
There is one way the bible makes sense without any interpretation.
Start with the premise there is no god and the bible makes perfect sense. It's just stories.
Darwinsman 4 weeks ago
@Darwinsman then how was the world made? You may say the big bang theory, well how was that made? You may say two adams collided with each other and made the universe. Well how were the adams made? You see I can go on and on with this, so you may think God is a fairy tale but in reality it does make sense because for every creation there has to be a creator.
dylanman6091 1 week ago in playlist Ask John Piper
@dylanman6091 1/2. "Adams"? Don't you mean Atoms?
Even if you mean atoms "colliding" together, you only show your ignorance of quantum physics. Nothing collided.
Scientists already know what happened Pico seconds after the big bang right up to today and they are already close to achieving self-replicating cells from non-organic materials in the lab, none of which requires a creator.
Just because we don't yet fully understand everything yet, doesn't mean a god did it. Cont'd.
Darwinsman 1 week ago
@dylanman6091 2/2. The problem that all religious people have to face, is that with every day that passes, science discovers more contradictions in the bible and also the true cause of more and more things previously believed to be in the purview of god, so their belief base is diminishing at a rapidly increasing rate. Yet they still cling desperately to the few fragments left to them, rather than embrace the wonder of true creation by natural means. They don’t realise their loss.
Darwinsman 1 week ago
@Darwinsman Time, space, and matter are co-relative. According to the Big Bang model (the most scientifically supported model by far), they all came into existence at a particular "time", so that literally nothing existed prior. Tell me, from where does everything originate if nothing existed prior? There must be a cause: A timeless, spaceless, immaterial cause. Multiverse theory is not viable, scientifically or philosophically. -P.S. self replicating cells would still require a first cell.
ambassadortotheKing 1 day ago
@ambassadortotheKing 1/2. Nobody knows exactly what happened before the big bang, not even religions, although they claim precisely that.
Science has a number of theories about it, which it is pursuing with ever increasing success, as each Hypothesis is verified into a theory, but It's obvious that it doesn't involve any “timeless, spaceless, immaterial” deity.
In contrast, religion just says "God did it!" without a single shred of evidence to verify that statement. Cont'd.
Darwinsman 1 day ago
@ambassadortotheKing 2/2. As for the first cell. Science also has a number of theories of how it was formed. It's now at the stage of trying to find out which one particular route of the many possibilities, was the one taken. It's possible that life started in a number of ways, not just one. Time will tell.
That’s what science does. It keeps looking. Religion merely postulates a conclusion then closes it’s ears and eyes to any other possibility. It is intellectual cowardice.
Darwinsman 1 day ago
So Jesus Christ died for the Well-Meant Offer but he did not die for the sins of the people to whom this offer is extended? If that is not the very definition of insincerity, I frankly do not know what is. Piper wouldn't know the nature of the gospel if it bit him in a dark alley. The gospel is not a conditional offer of salvation to all of humanity, it is the proclamation of unconditional salvation to God's people, who by faith receive it as glad tidings.
theearstohear 1 month ago
For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, 1peter 3:18
WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU CALVINISTS??????!!! OBVIOUSLY JOHN PIPER HAS JUST MADE GOD A LIAR FOR NOT BELIEVING THE TRUTH OF WHAT HE SAYS IN HIS WORD!
MmCorporate 3 months ago
@MmCorporate For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
(1 Peter 3:18 KJV)
Get a better translation
SilenThps 2 months ago
@MmCorporate - I'm no Calvinist, but if "Christ died for the sins of all" means "all of humanity", then the unavoidable logical conclusion is that all men will be brought to God (universalism), or Jesus Christ is a failure, because he died for the sins of all but some of them still go to hell. So which one do you believe?
theearstohear 1 month ago
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@MmCorporate "For Christ died for sins once for all"
ALL of the elect :-)
ETHANGELIST 1 week ago
The really cruel thing about Piper's god is that even though he knows they will spurn this grace, he gives them it anyway. Then when they have spurned it, this is added to their list of crimes.
If Piper just stopped for one minute to think about that, he would realise that he is describing a god that is a manipulative, malicious, vindictive wanker.
Nice one Piper
UrukEngineer 4 months ago
@UrukEngineer First of all my dude Who is creation to question the creator? everything in life is common grace if not vanity so to say. some places, Mathew in the NT, when the disciples are preaching about Jesus, which is the highest grace that you can receive, learning about Jesus and the door to everlasting life, when the people that received the message would reject this grace, Jesus said, Verily i say unto you, that it will be more tolerable for Sodom & Gomorrah on the Judgment day for them.
xelGuATAgAtO 4 months ago
Piper says that the reason sinning non-believers are still alive is that Jesus has given them the gift of grace. This grace is extended even to those that do not believe in god. Even though the all-knowing god knows that they will never turn to god/Jesus he, for some unfathomable reason elects not to kill them straight away but allows them to spurn this grace.
An alternative and simpler explanation is that there is no god.
UrukEngineer 4 months ago
@UrukEngineer Don't worry there will not be any injustice in the end for anyone,just because you do not understand or it may seem not right in your mind does not mean that God will not settle it in the end, all account will be settled. There are a lot of things that happen in the Earth that we wouldn't imagine God allowing. Did the devil create himself? everything is for a reason just because you don't understand it does not mean God made himself, Na make all men liars and God righteous amen.
xelGuATAgAtO 4 months ago
@xelGuATAgAtO Sorry mate, you still haven't explained why an omniscient god (who knows all things now and to come) would offer grace to people he knows will spurn it...then punish them for not accepting.
Your god has a track record of making people do bad things then punishing them for it - as well you know. Now THAT is just pure evil. Why are you ignoring the facts?
UrukEngineer 4 months ago
@UrukEngineer We should not have anything we have right now. everything we have is a gift, did you make yourself, you came out of the womb empty handed and die like that as well. Let everyone say our God is evil, he has Always been a God of Benevolence Amen. God gives and God takes away, there is no injustice only grace get it. trying to make man center, instead of the creator of the place that we were given, in pride. How can you question who made all things? who are men to do this?plz hv faith
xelGuATAgAtO 4 months ago
@xelGuATAgAtO "How can you question who made all things?" There is no evidence for your unsubstantiated belief.
The bible on the other hand gives plenty of evidence to prove, that if he existed, your god is a genocidal maniac. Why do you cherry pick the bits you want to believe and ignore the bad bits? Piper here does just that, he fails to understand just how horrid he makes god seem....good job he doesn't exist.
UrukEngineer 4 months ago
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Darwinsman 4 months ago
Quote: "Did Jesus' death do anything for non-Christians?"
Hardly, other than causing them grief.
If you really look at it, his death didn't even do anything for christians other than tie them to a guilt ridden form of mental slavery.
Saying that rejecting grace, which you never asked for nor wanted and is therefore being forced on you, will result in judgement against you, is moral blackmail.
It's no better than you being punished by the law for not accepting a drink if you're an alcoholic.
Darwinsman 5 months ago
@Darwinsman Does John Piper look tied to a guilt-ridden form of mental slavery? He's not. I, as a Christian, also am not. Please don't make negative blanket statements about the effects of a belief system that you don't hold.
Piper could have been more clear. He's not saying that guilt is a result of rejecting grace. Guilt is a result of failing your purpose, namely serving as the physical representation of God in the universe. Rejecting grace just shows further irresponsibility in this way.
smithiank 4 months ago
@smithiank If you'd actually read the question, it was:
"Did Jesus' death do anything for NON-CHRISTIANS?"
It has caused them grief. "Rejecting grace" has resulted in the past to more than just being told that you are "failing in your purpose", but often ended in you losing your life.
And as for Christians themselves. History throughout the centuries shows that Christianity is held together by the imposed guilt of being told from childhood that you are sinful and the fear of eternal damnation.
Darwinsman 4 months ago
@Darwinsman What you specifically said was "his death didn't even do anything for christians other than tie them to a guilt ridden form of mental slavery." That's simply not true in any but the most abusive forms of Christianity.
It's a shame that the people have historically killed in the name of Christianity. It really is. It's a shame that my Christian brothers and sisters are tortured and butchered to this day. But in both cases, it's mostly politics that is to blame. Not religion.
smithiank 4 months ago
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@smithiank What did his supposed death do for Christians?
Darwinsman 4 months ago
If you want to have a purpose to your life – and I would encourage you so to do – then make damn sure it is a purpose decided by YOU, and not by witch-doctors and priests, (especially long-dead, primitive ones), and certainly not by the charlatan Piper!
Take all the responsibility yourself; don’t let anybody take on your faults or your mistakes, for that would be immoral. Have a good life; your own life; leave the world a better place than you found it if you can.
StrumstickJoe 5 months ago
@apopyalips It's not about "receiving Christianity".. but, receiving Jesus Christ. Believing on Him.. having faith in and trusting in Him. No one enjoys coming out and telling others that members in their family may very well had perished. There is ONLY ONE God.. and He created us ALL.. no matter what our roots or from where we descend.
If the God you know is the creator of this world and the God of the Bible, He tells us to believe and receive Jesus Christ to be saved. Thats the ONLY WAY.
margovallen 6 months ago
It's a personal decision for each and everyone of us not as a group. Christianity was in Africa starting in the middle of the 1st century (Egypt) and was spread to other parts of Africa over the years along with Islam, as well. The Word of God tells us that everyone will hear the Gospel and have a chance to make a decision for Jesus Christ. Please don't burden yourself with the fact that perhaps, some of your ancestors rejected God's Gift of Grace by Faith in Jesus Christ. Many of mine did also.
margovallen 6 months ago
Did Jesus' death do anything for non-Christians?
Yes, it saves the ones who believe and trust in Jesus Christ.
margovallen 6 months ago
@candiceevans1 I don't think everyone understands all Biblical doctrine completely. The Bible says all we must do to be saved is to 'believe' on Jesus Christ :-)
margovallen 6 months ago
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The way i look at this whole thing is very simple actually. Jesus died for our sins.
If we do not sin then he died for nothing.
sorryhoe 8 months ago
God bless you!
DirtyABirdy 8 months ago
john piper is a great guy
TheJesusfollower15 8 months ago
you people don't know! stop pretending that you know what happens after death, you HAVEN'T A CLUE!! It's high time we put an end to this lying from religious fanatics.
marcohorowitz8 8 months ago
This dude is a joke!!
sabrom 8 months ago
But, if they aren't the "ELECT" few.... you mean to say that God would dare make such an offer?
Bottom line : How can a 5-point Calvinist read John 3:15-18.. and believe that Jesus died for only the "elect?"
It's neither Calvinism nor Armianism... but, both. They are "intertwined".... and God's Way of thinking and acting. A way that is far surpassing that of intellectual man. To believe only one camp is to disbelieve lots of Biblical truths.
No one gets to Heaven on half the Gospel :-)
margovallen 8 months ago
piper was right, this is grace being offered 2 us at this moment, because this is makin me think about my eternity. but more than eternity it makes u want 2 luv god because of wat he's given 2 us that we surely do not deserve.
deep7100 9 months ago
God is sovereign! God made all that is or ever will be! God purposed, for his own good pleaseur to give man free will! God purposed, for his own good pleasure to give man responsabilities including responding to God's own call.
God has done all of this, to deny that Man has free will, TO respond, IS to DENY God and God's good pleasure and sovereingty. To deny this says that God is not allowed to do as he pleases or is incapable of doing his own will.
to deny this is another Gospel!
buzzbbird 9 months ago
@buzzbbird Everything you just said is not Biblical. All you do is reassert your philosophy, which means nothing. God gave man a self determinate free will to respond to God's call, yet I've been asking you for the las half a week to give me ONE explicit verse and you can't do it. His will is to SAVE HIS people. He will do so. "I will have mercy on who I mercy and will harden whom I will harden".
ronathanedwards 9 months ago
@ronathanedwards God has a PERFECT WILL... and God has a PERMISSIVE WILL. God can only work with willing hearts. The Gift of Grace has been offered and offered freely. It's just like any other "offering".. the person having been offered something has the choice to say "yes, please"... or "no thank you."
God loves us.. and love does not force, nor does it insist on it's own way :-)
margovallen 6 months ago
@margovallen God has a prescriptive (what should be done) and his decretive will (what WILL be done). God can ONLY work with willing hearts? ummm verses please? Grace is FREE... to GIVE! And that is God's freedom, and that gift is election to take out a heart of stone and give it flesh IN ORDER to be saved. The fleshly/natural man will NEVER choose God, but what is according to his nature, which is to rebel against God's commands (like repent) he can not even UNDERSTAND them! 1 Cor. 2:14.
ronathanedwards 6 months ago
@ronathanedwards Haha! God's "prescriptive" Will would be that we repent and receive Christ in order for us to not perish and attain everlasting life. His "decretive" Will is that, should we refuse that offering, we will indeed perish. These are but, one each examples of the meanings of the terms you've provided :-)
"Willing" scripture = Exodus 35:5, 1 Chronicles 29:5, Psalm 110:3, Isaiah 1:19, Luke 10:29, 2 Corinthians 5:8, 2 Corinthians 8:3, 8:12.. Hebrews 13:18.
You're a Calvinist, yes?
margovallen 6 months ago
@margovallen "prescriptive"= God commands you to obey. Decretive = decrees who will obey. Proof texting means nothing. The verses DESCRIBE peoples actions (narrative) it doesn't say WHY they did, you imply your presupposition without any scriptural support for the presupposition. The N.T. verses are those who are already born again. Please give me ONE EXPLICIT verse that says man in his natural state can/wants to obey God, UNDERSTAND God, or please Him.
Can you give me one didactic verse?
ronathanedwards 6 months ago
@ronathanedwards Sorry, hon... not accurate. 'Prescriptive' is giving injunctions, directions, laws, or rules. A Dr. prescribes meds in order for us to recover and it will work if we choose to comply. "Decretive' has everything to do with what God will or will not do, if we do or don't do what is conveyed to us in His Word. A 'decree' is an established act.
Exodus 35:5 = 'whosoever is of a willing heart, let him...' 1 Chronicles 29:5 = 'And who then is willing to consecrate...'
margovallen 6 months ago
Isaiah 1:19 = "If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land: 20 But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it." The passages I have provided prove that man must be willing.. exercise his own God-given free-will.
didactic verse = Acts 13:22 "................I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfill all my will."
margovallen 6 months ago
@margovallen Again, Is 1:19 just says what they must do "if you are willing", it doesn't say "every man has the ability" THAT would be explicit. It doesn't say WHY some were and some were not willing, that's what I'm looking for. You are implying.
Act 13:22 narrative NOT didactic, Again it says David was a man after his heart, it doesn't say WHY he had that heart. Isn't there one verse that is explicit about man's ABILITY? Explicit would have the word ABLE, CAN, POWER in it, trying to help.
ronathanedwards 6 months ago
@ronathanedwards Blah blah blah! Why are some people desiring to open their hearts and believe the Gospel by faith.. while others are not? If it is explained properly and thoroughly, it should be a done-deal and everyone would become born-again believers. The scripture doesn't specifically say "every man has the ability".. but, thats where / why what I stated the Bible is an "equation of words".. remember? EVIDENTLY, every man must have 'had the ability' to do what was required.
margovallen 6 months ago
@margovallen Whoops, made a big mistake Margo, people DESIRE to open their hearts? Can you please be more careful. It doesn't say that anywhere either. It is a "done deal" Those whom the father has elected will be born-again of THE FATHER. Why do some believe and others do not? I would LOVE to hear you explain that without man being the Subject of the sentence!Your "equation of words" is nullified however if there are EXPLICIT verses that say otherwise, which would mean your soteriology is wrong
ronathanedwards 6 months ago
@ronathanedwards "Hey Mr. Smith.. guess what, you've been elected our next president." .."Say what??.. I never had the desire to become president.. so, I never ran.".. "To bad, Mr. Smith.. you've been elected."
Jesus died for ALL... with the hope that none should perish. He offered the Gift of Grace. Those who desire salvation, believe by faith and repent... and at that time, God 'elects' to save them.
If Jesus died for ALL (John 3:16).. why would the "elect" be considered 'pre'-elected?
margovallen 6 months ago
To say "Jesus died for the elect" is correct if utilized contextually. I heard the Gospel and the Holy Spirit tugged at my heart, prompting me to receive Jesus Christ. I yielded to and heeded the Holy Spirit and repented, receiving Jesus Christ. God had elected to save me.... I am saved, hence, Jesus died for the elect.
Purchase a horse... then, the cart. Not vice-versa :-)
margovallen 6 months ago
@margovallen How can a heart of stone (which CAN NOT OBEY God) and a natural man (CAN NOT UNDERSTAND spiritual things) YIELD and repent (which is a Command of God)? The H.S "tugs" at your heart? The STONEY ONE? How bout the Holy Spirit GIVE YOU A NEW HEART IN ORDER to repent? Where in the Bible does it say that the H.S. tugs at hearts? Talk about reversing things!. If you are elect, God decreed it, Jesus Purchased it, and the H.S. APPLIES it, trinity in perfect harmony (and scriptural).
ronathanedwards 6 months ago
@margovallen You assume the person doesn't want to be president only to comply with your presupposition and imply force. That is not correct. You might want to actually study Reformed theology to at least understand the theology to make a better decision. It's about giving a new heart IN ORDER freely love God for who He is,where with your stone heart/fleshly mind/natural state used to hate Him.
Jesus died for EVERYONE? Do you believe in Substitutionary atonement?Then u must be an universalist
ronathanedwards 6 months ago
@ronathanedwards God does offer salvation to all men (Titus 2:11), for all are commanded to obey it in 2 Thessalonians 1:8, 1 Peter 4:17, and Acts 2:38. We to hold out the word of life (Philippians 2:16) to all. However, God chose to make people with the free agency to reject God’s purpose for themselves (Luke 7:30), and suffer consequences which are their own fault (Jeremiah 17:4).
margovallen 6 months ago
@margovallen The reprobate always reject and MUST reject (according to their nature) the purpose of God (which is salvation) this doesn't say anything about irresistible Grace, but proves their depravity. God does offer salvation to all, we are commanded to obey. God does give man a free will .... I believe in all of that. Free Will doesn't mean you can choose everything, but it means you FREELY choose what you desire most (inclined to, have affections for).
ronathanedwards 6 months ago
@ronathanedwards We are commanded to BELIEVE in order to be saved. Our obedience is to the process of attaining salvation what we must do to be saved, ie. hear, believe by faith, confess, repent and receive. Thats Gods commands in order to be saved. Salvation is about RECEIVING, not giving. After we are saved, our obedience is about our reward in Heaven. 'Reprobates' are those who 'refuse' to accept. One 'becomes' a reprobate, they're not born. People are BORN spiritually depraved.
margovallen 6 months ago
"Free-will" allows us to choose any / everything within the guidelines of our own capabilities. If not, it would not be free-will. Again, we have words and they must have meaning. "Free" is free. God's Gift of Grace is FREE. We don't/can't work for or earn it. Choosing the things of God will be done in accordance to His "rules" ie. we must be born-again to inherit the Kingdom of God and there is a specific way to become born-again. Man chooses his own ultimate destiny according to God's design.
margovallen 6 months ago
@margovallen Wow.. allot of philosophy there... not scripture, that speaks volumes.
"Free will allows us to choose anything WITHIN THE GUIDELINES of... OUR CAPABILITIES" ... yes, and the Bible says "The Fleshly mind CAN NOT obey"... There's your "guideline". "The natural man CAN NOT understand spiritual things (the Gospel)... There's your guideline. The fleshly mind CAN NOT please God. There's your guideline. You do not believe BECAUSE you are not of my flock.There's your EXPLICIT guidelines ..
ronathanedwards 6 months ago
@ronathanedwards Just like my 'opinions'.. my "philosophy" is based on knowledge. And I not only have some Biblical 'knowledge'.. but, it within proper contextual guidelines. While the fleshly mind cannot obey 'completely'.. God has instilled in every one of us the need and "knack" for survival. After hearing the Gospel (however many times) man has the ability to understand and act, according to his understanding.. upon a means of survival. Believing by FAITH as he understands it at that moment.
margovallen 6 months ago
Saying a 'fleshly' mind cannot please God.. is to say 'the mind of an unsaved person' cannot please God. When we come to Christ and become born-again, that in itself changes Gods whole outlook on that person. That person has come to Christ and is believing on Him... and that pleases God. So when, in reality.. that person does certain things that ordinarily would be displeasing to God, it is viewed under a different light.
God doesn't like anything about a person before that person is saved.
margovallen 6 months ago
@margovallen How entrenched you are to your humanistic philosophy! Humble yourself and stop adding words to the EXPLICIT texts! You impose meanings onto implicit verses and you ADD words to EXPLICIT verses, what a shame. Paul said "The fleshly mind cannot obey" not "cannot obey 'completely' ".
He has the "ability to understand spiritual things" ? Really? Boy, you don't like Paul do you? 1 Cor 2:14 The natural person...things of the Spirit... is not able to understand them...
ronathanedwards 6 months ago
@ronathanedwards You are some piece of work, my friend.. theres no doubt about that. If I were not here for you, I suppose you'd be forced to find a fence-post to create arguments with? I have said that the Holy Spirit "works on" the hearts of people. You want to tell me "where does it say in the Bible the HS "works on"... yak-yak-yak.." Frankly, you have turned this dialogue into a pile of crap.. proving yourself to be an obstinate jerk!
I do not enjoy sharing my faith with you.
margovallen 6 months ago
According to your answer to why you are saved and the other isn't, you DO have to do something or BE a certain way. You have to be more serious than the other... right? That's what you said. So God's grace isn't free, it can be demanded. If I believe, GOD MUST save me. This is not Biblical Grace, the freedom is GOD'S to Give, not man's to receive. Believing is a VERB which describes a WORK. Faith isn't a work? Yes, it is... it's God's.. not ours, that why He has to give it to us Eph 2:8-9.
ronathanedwards 6 months ago
@ronathanedwards Gods Grace IS FREE. God says that we must 'believe'.. thats our active part and such a small part it is indeed. Belief costs us nothing. To not believe, costs us everything. Grace is free. Twist it, turn it, spin it, dance around it. Nothings going to change, other than the fact that I'm getting great practice dealing with obstinate people. God is not a liar and if He says "whosoever believes will be saved" then, He must save me.. YES! How can He not, if I do what He says?
margovallen 6 months ago
If God says in His Word "if you do this and this, I'll do this" .. He has to stand by His Word. God is not a liar. So, He does have to honor hat He says He will do.. if we are doing what He says for us to do. In fact, when we pray for things we want and we have been walking in obedience, He has to give us what we pray for. John 14:13 "And whatsoever ye shall ASK IN MY NAME, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it."
margovallen 6 months ago
@ronathanedwards Just as we bring "belief" to the table.. the very same goes for "faith".. as no one can actually 'believe' something without applying faith. To 'believe' something to be true, is to understand something to be true without having seen.. just like 'faith.' Belief and faith are synonymous. It doesn't take any of either to know we exist.
God may strengthen our 'faith' but, we supply faith. Jesus tells us that, if we had the faith the size of a mustard-seed, we could move mountains.
margovallen 6 months ago
Or we could demand that a tree up-root itself and be planted elsewhere. So, if God supplies our faith, don't you imagine we could do just exactly the things He mentioned? Was he speaking in parables or do you think He was speaking in the literal sense? I'm thinking, literal. So, we.. evidently must be furnishing our own faith and belief.. because, even though mine has allowed me to "move mountains" in the metaphorical sense, I've yet to do such literally.
Faith and belief aren't 'works' :-)
margovallen 6 months ago
@margovallen Those are commands for us to be saved. It doesn't explain WHY some obey and some don't. Again, narratives and commands express WHAT must be done... they don't explain WHY some do it and some don't.
They can only BELIEVE if one is FIRST given a new heart. Can you refute that? Please give me a verse that explicitly refutes that. You won't find one...
1 John 5:1 says Everyone who believes HAS BEEN BORN of the Father.. The "being Born" happens BEFORE the belief. That is EXPLICIT.
ronathanedwards 6 months ago
@ronathanedwards Being born of the Father is what, exactly? Being spiritually born-again. So, we are born-again in order to believe? The goal is to become born-again... not believe. We must be born-again to inherit the Kingdom of God. Are there some who 'believe' but, are not born-again? If so, do they go to Heaven?
We believe by faith, firstly.... after hearing the Word. THEN, we can move forward from there. atheists don't even 'believe'.. but, they must be born-again in so they will believe?
margovallen 6 months ago
But, wait! Jesus died for only a few, His "elect" privileged and all the rest are to be cast into eternal damnation for no fault of their own? They're not given the same opportunity as all the rest? You're corrupting John 3:16 by giving us a lesson on the real and true definition of "world" and "whosoever." Truth is, God chose the WORLD (the people) before the foundation of the world, to be saved. In His Sovereignty and good pleasure, gave us free-will to choose. God has no respect of person.
margovallen 6 months ago
@margovallen Everyone deserves hell margo. All are under the wrath of God JUSTLY. God is the one that has self-determinate free-will. God is under NO obligation to give His grace "election" to anyone. He is free to save ONE or millions or billions, that doesn't mean He is not just if He doesn't save one more or one less. Grace is non-justice, not un-just. God chose the WORLD before the foundation? Verse please? Eph 1:4-11? He chose US, not everyone, to be holy and blameless.
ronathanedwards 6 months ago
@ronathanedwards Everyone does deserve Hell... so, you're preaching to the choir! You're so into all of your so-called "grammar"..... did it occur to you that proper names begin with capital letters?
Don't be foolish.. God gives us free-will. We hear the Gospel.. the Holy Spirit "works on".. "speaks to".. "softens".. "deals with".. "opens".. "makes receptive".. our hearts. Some repent (experience a change of mind and turn to God).. while others do not. We've all been given the same opportunity.
margovallen 6 months ago
Ephesians 1:4-11 can be taken out of context just like many other passages of scripture, as you have proven. Question : IF 2 Peter 3:9 tells us that 'the Lord is long-suffering to us NOT WILLING that ANY should PERISH, but that ALL should come to repentance'.. who are you to say He died for only the "predestined", "chosen", "elect".. in the context in which you place these terms? You try to "break the gnostic code" of John 3:16 complicating the heart of the Gospel.. in which, God says not to do.
margovallen 6 months ago
Paul is speaking to believers in Ephesians 1:4-11 after the fact.. telling them how we should behave as believers. The whole Calvinism thought revolves around 'certain' people have been chosen. When a person asks.. 'why do some come to God and others don't', the only answer per the Calvinists is ..'they were the chosen'.. however, there are NUMEROUS passages of scripture that tell us "believe on Christ and be saved".. "whosoever" believes will be saved.
margovallen 6 months ago
@margovallen All those verses don't say WHY, again you imply meaning into "all those texts". I bring up explicit verses WHY and you just repeat a mantra, ignore the verses, and run to implied verses that already have been explained properly and refutes your theology.
ronathanedwards 6 months ago
@margovallen Yet you go running to implied verses and leave Ephesians untouched. The point of the Ephesians verse was talking about WHO was predestined before the foundation of the World, you completely ignore that point (because my point was correct) and you fly off to different verses that don't speak of election at all! I know it's hard to stay on one point when you have to foundation that is solid, but could you try?
2 Peter 3:9 ? Who is he talking about? Follow the pronouns! US ! !
ronathanedwards 6 months ago
@margovallen Hell is not a proper name... lol
There's your humanistic mantra again... I know if a lie is repeated enough, it will become believable. But not in theological debate where truth is scrutinized.
God gives the same opportunity? So, salvation doesn't depend on Him but on the almighty will of man! What verse was that again? Oh yeah, "Salvation is of the MAN".... lol
ronathanedwards 6 months ago
@margovallen The goal of a Christian is Sanctification. One CAN NOT believe unless He is born again. You can use philosophy all you want, I'll stick to what the Bible says, and it says that one is Born Again, given a new heart IN ORDER to believe. You might want to actually read the Bible for what it says grammatically and not what your presuppositions are imposing onto the text.
"We BELIEVE by FAITH" ? ... "pisteuw" (in the Greek) Belief and faith are the same word! We have faith by faith?
ronathanedwards 6 months ago
@ronathanedwards HELLO?????? ARE WE NOT SANCTIFIED WHEN WE BECOME BORN-AGAIN?????? WE ATTAIN RIGHTEOUSNESS, JUSTIFICATION, SANCTIFICATION WHEN BE BECOME BORN-AGAIN!!!!!
THE GOAL IS TO BECOME BORN-AGAIN.. JUST LIKE I SAID!!!!!
margovallen 6 months ago
@margovallen Born-again doesn't mean "being saved" "choosing Jesus", it refers to the act of regeneration by God. This is NOT a "goal" it is the act of the Holy Spirit pertaining to opening ones eyes to see the kingdom of God, to give understanding to know the gospel and giving a new heart to believe. Sanctification IS NOT attained completely in this life, it is an ongoing process till death. We don't attain righteousness or justification, it is given to us by the merit of Christ.
ronathanedwards 6 months ago
@ronathanedwards You're a major dumb-ass!
2 Peter 2:16 "But was rebuked for his iniquity: the DUMB ASS speaking with man's voice forbad the madness of the prophet."
nuff-said.
margovallen 5 months ago
@margovallen "Let your speech always be gracious" ... I wish you will be able to understand this verse one day along with the verses that explicitly refute your theology. I suggest to you Wayne Grudem's "Systematic Theology" book. It would help you out tremendously.
If you want to say I'm the "dumb ass" here, fine. It was the ass that REBUKED the prophet for his iniquity and forbad his madness. I guess that makes you the prophet in this scenario. ;-)
ronathanedwards 5 months ago
@margovallen Are you going to accept the rebuke from the "ASS"? Or are you going to hang on to your theology in stubbornness?
God resists the proud but gives grace to the humble.
ronathanedwards 5 months ago
@ronathanedwards Belief and faith go together... but, are not exactly the very same meaning. We believe with our mind.. faith with our heart. Beliefs are ideas and concepts. Beliefs are not absolute truths.. but, opinions 'about' reality.. not 'reality' itself. Belief = relative truth. Faith = absolute truth.
Gotta be born-again in order to believe?... haha! So, what about all the people who 'believe' in God.. but, are not born-again?
margovallen 6 months ago
@margovallen Do you even read what I say? It is the SAME WORD! They are exactly the same concept. You're just confused.
"ha ha" doesn't refute 1 John 5:1. Funny how I refute your verses with exegesis, and all I get is "ha ha"... nice...
Those who SAY they believe are professing, they have a worldly understanding of Christianity, but their belief isn't spiritually, in reality, a true belief. They are not saved, they were not given a new heart to truly believe. 1 John 2:19:1 Tim 3:5-12 James 2:22
ronathanedwards 6 months ago
@ronathanedwards Jesus DID die for everyone. And I am in no way for or fashion a Universalist. Jesus did the work for all.. once and for all.
We repent (have a change of mind) and come to Christ.. by faith. He works on our hearts after we trust in Him and get saved. Thats instantaneous.. and the improvements done to our hearts usually take time. But, God is the one who makes the improvements as He deems necessary. He does it all.. we just have to be willing to be changed.
margovallen 6 months ago
@margovallen Where does it say "He works on our hearts"? The scripture says He takes out a heart of stone and gives you a heart of flesh... it's either or.. there's no partly stone/flesh heart. Understand the concept, the STONE heart hates God, the fleshly heart loves God. For one who has a stone heart, to be saved, must first be given a flesh heart to desire what a fleshly heart desires! 1 John 5:1 Those believing HAVE BEEN born of the father. Been born is perfect tense, believing is present.
ronathanedwards 6 months ago
@ronathanedwards It doesn't matter where it says it. It just does. Are you a mature person who really knows something about God's Word or a little kid who questions everything, wanting someone to guide your finger to the scripture? I would have to look it up, myself and it most likely doesn't use those exact words. Goodness! You waste much energy with your little antics. I may get frustrated, even weary.. but, you'll not break me down.
The "heart of stone.. heart of flesh" thing is SYMBOLIC.
margovallen 6 months ago
Our hearts change because they're changed by God. He works on our hearts. Like I stated before, sometimes it's instantaneous, sometimes it's a process over time. But, when a person initially comes to Christ desiring to be saved, not only is that 'desire' a tell-tale sign that God has already been working on that persons heart but, God will elect to save that person.. if that person drops dead moments afterward, they goes to Heaven. Gods work on a persons heart is not complete prior to salvation.
margovallen 6 months ago
@margovallen God doesn't "work" on someones heart, He might prepare it, but still in that state the person is DEAD and BLIND, and Natural, and has a heart of STONE. IN ORDER for a person to see the truth and believe it, God doesn't CHANGE a person's heart, He give them a NEW heart to BELIEVE! It's called regeneration. God's work of giving a person a new heart IS complete prior to salvation. To be saved, one has to believe. To believe one has to be born again!
ronathanedwards 6 months ago
@ronathanedwards We can say "work on".. "deals with".. "speaks to"... "touches".."softens".. what do you want from me? Seems you pick and choose when you wanna get all literal. Do you think in your own mind that you are something other than human? Newsflash! Heart of stone getting replaced with a heart of flesh is METAPHORICAL. God doesn't cut us open and take out a heart of stone.. our hearts are make of flesh. It's all symbolic, sweetie!
We believe by faith FIRST... to become born-again.
margovallen 6 months ago
@margovallen You mock the language, yet you didn't answer the question. It IS metaphor, representing ... WHAT? A heart of stone represents a heart that is of the natural, fleshly minded, DEAD spiritually person. A heart of flesh is ALIVE and obeys and understands God.
"We believe by faith? lol same word... you're making stuff up! You are going completely AGAINST God's Word. 1 John 5:1 says we are Born Again with the result being belief. Does the embryo decide to be fertilized? LOL !
ronathanedwards 6 months ago
@ronathanedwards I mock the language? You are upsetting me. You will stop at nothing to prove your false doctrine. You're quite the insensitive and hurtful individual. You're surely no gentleman.. and I'm questioning your Christianity. Seems more like "Religianity".. "Phariseeianity?" You're a Calvinist. Gotta make everything fit.
Embryos don't get fertilized, Einstein! Eggs do.. which produces an embryo. What exactly do you know anything about?
margovallen 6 months ago
@margovallen Your inability to grasp even the slightest parallel amazes me. I'm PROVING my point of the grammar in 1 John 5:1 ! You are correct, "Einstein" ! A fetus is the RESULT !! That is why it is GROWING! The CAUSE is the fertilization the RESULT it a FETUS... a growing "being". Thus all growing fetus' are the RESULT of the fertilization. But they didn't start GROWING (present tense) UNTIL the fertilization process HAPPENED. Same with 1 John 5:1 "believing" happens AFTER "regeneration"
ronathanedwards 6 months ago
@ronathanedwards Oh... now it's "He might prepare it"... haha! What happened to us having heart transplants done on us... being born with hearts of stone and God totally replacing it with a heart of flesh?... LOL!
Thats what I was saying. God "works on" our hearts. And you CHOOSE when you care to get literal or symbolic.. GRAMMATICAL (as it were)... and practical.. doing your little dancing numbers around truths I've provided... and never landing on anything John Calvin says not to.
margovallen 6 months ago
@margovallen God in His providence brings His elect to where he gives them a new heart for belief. It's not that difficult to understand. The point is, He first must give them a new heart IN ORDER for them to obey. "I will give them one heart, and a new spirit I will put within them. I will remove the heart of stone from their flesh and give them a heart of flesh, THAT they may walk in my statutes and keep my rules and obey them.
The word THAT conveys PURPOSE. New heart SO THAT they obey.
ronathanedwards 6 months ago
@ronathanedwards Its not that difficult to understand? BOY.. I've wasted too much time with you a long time ago.
My casting pearls before swine is over per yourself. Repent and get saved, heretic!
margovallen 6 months ago
@margovallen Heresy, huh? Funny you should mention that. What YOU believe has been considered by EVERY Church council to be heretical. Do you even know WHY there is a protestant Church? Do you know you are arguing on the Roman Catholic side?.... Ummm.. I guess I should have asked, that might change things... are you a Roman Catholic? If you are, then you are consistent with your bad theology. If you for some reason call yourself a protestant, then you are inconsistent with being a protestant.
ronathanedwards 6 months ago
@margovallen Margo it DOESN'T say it. NOWHERE If you look at my page you'll find that I know the Bible somewhat, but that doesn't matter. I have the most powerful Bible Software made, believe me, nowhere does it say "God works on people's hearts, that's been indoctrinated into you.I don't have to break you,but God's Word never comes back void ;-)Symbols are used to describe something, can a DEAD man by himself come back to life? Can a BLIND person see the truth or does he need new eyes first?
ronathanedwards 6 months ago
@ronathanedwards I'm in no doubt that you know a lot about the Bible. You can quote scriptures but, you take them out of context a lot.. often suggesting the Bible "says" something that it has merely printed on the pages. Where'd you score that illustrious software, a Calvinism site? Ditch the software.. get into the Word. If you're instructing those who have never cracked a Bible, you can say anything, they may believe you. I am fairly well-versed in the Bible.. not so easily fooled.
margovallen 6 months ago
@ronathanedwards Those believing have been born of the Father... true. They firstly, believe... then, become born-again of the Father. Hence, those who believe have indeed been born of the Father.
Once we are born-again, that does not mean we will never have anymore human, fleshly desires. Anyone who says they are without sin, makes God out to be a liar.
While being born-again is perfect tense.... so is believing.. for those who continue in their belief ; present, past and future perfect :-)
margovallen 6 months ago
@margovallen Unfortunately you have turned the grammar on it's head. (Especially in the Greek).
"They firstly believe... THEN become...." WRONG WRONG WRONG.... The PURPOSE of the perfect tense is to show an action that happened BEFORE the present tense verb with the EFFECTS of the perfect tense being the present tense verb.
"All embryos growing in the womb HAVE BEEN fertilized by the father"... what happened first? The embryo's growing CAUSED the fertilization? LOL Understand the analogy!
ronathanedwards 6 months ago
@ronathanedwards You're a Calvinist. You'd much rather believe doctrines of MEN.. in lieu of what the Bible tells us. We hear the Word, believe by faith, repent, receive. If you know anything about the Bible then, you know there are several passages of scripture that touch on the fact that 'man plays a role in their salvation'.. as man must desire salvation.
"All embryos growing in the womb HAVE BEEN fertilized by the father"...??? ... Scripture please. Since when do embryos need fertilizing?
margovallen 6 months ago
@margovallen You follow your doctrines of MEN, margo, the humanist philosophers, that have placed themselves into the church. So far all you've done is give me nothing but a mantra "man has free will" and not ONE explicit verse proving so. You can't exegete one of my verses without adding words to it, I just go by what the Bible EXPLICITLY says, I don't change a word.
Embryos GROWING. O.k. FETUS' then! Scripture? It's a parallel to 1 John 5:1.The being born happens 1st, it's the CAUSE of faith
ronathanedwards 6 months ago
@ronathanedwards No, I don't assume anything. Whether the person in question desires to become president or not is only incidental to the analogy.. the scenario I provided to TRY to convey a point to someone who is fighting tooth and nail not to receive.. or at least, not give me the pleasure of knowing you received it. Debate etiquette.The gist of it is the fact that people aren't elected until they have the desire to be. Wanna be saved? Come to Christ and believe, God will elect to save you.
margovallen 6 months ago
If God so loved the WORLD, that He gave His only begotten Son to be the ultimate sacrifice for mankind and WHOSOEVER believes is saved. That tells me that God has given man free-will to make choices over his own life.. even into eternity. We don't come into this world as 'children of God' we 'become' children of God. Most "choose" to reject Gods gift of grace. Adam and Eve 'chose' to eat of the tree God told them not to partake of. If He didn't give man free-will, man would be 'saved drones.'
margovallen 6 months ago
@margovallen You are adding that to the text. John 3 doesn't speak of free will at all. You are eisegeting the text (interjecting meaning that isn't intended by the author). Did you know "whosoever" isn't in the Greek? It's a translation into the English that is vague when misunderstood (which the English does all the time). It's a substantive "All the believing ones"... He died ... for all the believing ones. Do all believe? Nope.
We become children of God... how? 1 John 5:1 God regenerates us
ronathanedwards 6 months ago
@ronathanedwards So, you're saying (or insinuating, anyway) that the only people who truly have salvation are those of whom choose to study the Bible just as a scholar or interpreter would? Who cares whats in the Greek or the Hebrew or the Aramaic? I just eat the food, not necessarily speak the language.
Just like I stated to you before.. per Biblical knowledge (even though, you're interpretation is off kilter) vs SALVATION? Aren't we suppose to approach it as little children? Humble yourself!
margovallen 6 months ago
@margovallen " ''' WHO CARES"" what's in the Greek" ...... and then later you have the nerve to say "humble yourself"! .... Who's the one who really needs to be humbled margo... you don't care about what was actually written or listen to people who have humbled themselves to learn it, and try to TEACH you what it says, but I'm the one needing humbling... o.k...
My interpretation is not off kilter it's extremely accurate, because actually that verse is very simple, grammatically.
ronathanedwards 6 months ago
@ronathanedwards W-H-A-T-E-V-E-R!!! Ask me if you think I am one tiny bit surprised the fact, you're taking what I said out of context(?)... why wouldn't you, right? Anyone of whom takes the Word of God out of context.. gambling with their own immortal soul, would naturally choose to miss a particular point very well made.
Just because you're vast pridefulness and ego refuse to allow you to express 'points taken' does not in any way mean that there are / were none made.
I read the King James.
margovallen 6 months ago
@margovallen I haven't taken anything out of context, if anything, I'm trying to get to focus ON a context and what it explicitly means and not force meanings into a text.
ronathanedwards 6 months ago
@ronathanedwards John 3 says "WHOSOEVER" believes..... so, you've still not learned from all this that, believing is a choice? It may as well say 'whosoever chooses to believe'.... same thing.
You're tinkling against the wind arguing with me on all this doctrinal stuff. You're losing and don't have the good sense to know it. Darn that pridefulness!
Try dealing with atheists.
margovallen 6 months ago
@margovallen I have had debates with atheists, mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, and Synergists like yourself. And I don't have to change my theology at all. You on the other hand would have a major problem with an atheist concerning evil. With a seasoned atheist, he would destroy your arguments and have you trying to explain that evil came from "thin air"... because that's where your theology leaves you. A mile wide but an inch thick....
ronathanedwards 6 months ago
@ronathanedwards I explain to them about Lucifer pushing his New-Age philosophy onto the masses, ie. The Sons of God aka Angels in Heaven and causing great discourse, 1/3 of them buying into what he was selling causing a war, he and his cohorts getting kicked out of Heaven. Those fallen ones are whom make up satans army of demons. Many of whom, mated with the "daughters of men" and the offspring is whats known at the Nephilim, whom wrecked havoc and corruption on all the earth hence, the Flood.
margovallen 6 months ago
Is that air thick enough for you? Seasoned atheists get frustrated with me and run for the hills, just like the Bible says they will.
Besides, atheists or those of whom believe false doctrines... all end up in the same place, yes?
margovallen 6 months ago
@ronathanedwards He didn't die for but, a few believers.. and afterward, many came to believe. "For God sent not his Son into the WORLD to condemn the world; but that the WORLD through him MIGHT be saved." Does it say He came to save the elect? If He came to save His "elect".. and we play no part in our salvation at all, why does it say "MIGHT" be saved? If Jesus died only for the elect, the elect WOULD be saved.. not MIGHT be. But, it says WORLD, not elect. And it says MIGHT, we must cooperate.
margovallen 6 months ago
@margovallen "Might" in the English is a good translation, but unfortunately the English word conveys "uncertainty" (which you have taken) but not certainty. However, the Greek word is "subjunctive" which, if it is not in a conditional clause (which this ISN'T), means certainty. Uncertainty would be conveyed in the Greek in the "Optative". There is no "uncertainty" that Jesus will save, He came to SAVE His people, not make them savable (thus uncertain that He would save ANY). Nice try.
ronathanedwards 6 months ago
@ronathanedwards John 3:15-16 tells us how to become Children of God. 1 John 5:1 tells us who are born of God. The former = before the fact... the latter = after the fact.
Jesus did die for all of the believing ones.... as well as all of the unbelievers, also. His Blood had to be shed for remission of sins. The Gospel isn't preached to save believers.. they're already saved. But, preached to save unbelievers. Jesus died for ALL.
margovallen 6 months ago
@margovallen God doesn't elect to SAVE, He elects people. He elects people to save. People is the direct object.
Using your analogy, it would be like us right now "electing" Obama for president... what's the point? He's already president? The election would be useless with no purpose. God's election happened before time, He decreed it, and predestined it. Those who are elect before time Christ died for, the Holy Spirit causes to be Born Again in order for you to believe. 1 John 5:1.
ronathanedwards 6 months ago
@ronathanedwards If Christ died for the WORLD, He died for ALL. Your 'Obama' analogy makes no sense. Which, btw is easy to do if you don't know what you're talking about to begin with. You're trying to "wing-it" with me.. and doing a terrible job.
Gods election happened before time.. He elected to save us, and gave His only Son as the sacrifice. WHOSOEVER (a special group of people He preordained, elected or had chosen ahead of time? Or WHOSOEVER?) BELIEVES in Him shall not perish........."
margovallen 6 months ago
We believe by faith firstly.. then, we are born-again. The destiny is to have Salvation aka become born-again. We don't become born-again in order to believe. Belief is something we bring to the table. It's not a great feat to believe by faith. How do little children believe the unbelievable so easily? It's faith. And thats all God asks of us in order to be saved. Repent and believe.
margovallen 6 months ago
@margovallen The "World" is a Jewish idiom margo... As a Jew, when talking about Jews, they would say Jew or Israel. When talking about non-Jews they would say Gentiles or Greeks, or nations.... When discussing Jews and Gentiles (as a group of many or a whole) they would say WORLD. This RARELY means every individual. When the pharisees saw Jesus coming to Jerusalem and said "Look the WORLD has gone after him".. Every person in the World was in Jerusalem?
"Whosoever" isn't in the Greek. Sorry
ronathanedwards 6 months ago
@ronathanedwards You're grasping at straws. All of a sudden you're becoming 'idiom-minded'.. and I've been utilizing idioms since our correspondence.
""As a Jew, when talking about Jews, they would say Jew or Israel. When talking about non-Jews they would say Gentiles or Greeks, "" really??? Goodness!!! Are you sure its not the opposite?... haha!
"World" actually is "those of the world".. the worldly. Jesus died for the "WORLD".. the worldly.. the lost. Has more than one usage/meaning :-)
margovallen 6 months ago
@margovallen You've been implying. I've been explicit. Idioms are to be understood by the intent of the author and not implying. "Really, goodness" is your answer? Okay, but it doesn't refute the language of the culture. "The World" is a noun "Worldly" is an adjective. You are equating the two irresponsibly. Jesus (a Jew) was talking to Nicodemus (a Jew). Nicodemus knew EXACTLY what Jesus meant, God just didn't just come for Jews, but Jews and Gentiles (The World). But not all of them!
ronathanedwards 6 months ago
The Obama analogy is perfect. You just don't want to accept it. Predestination occurs "after" the fact? lol, you might want to understand the word "predestinate". I'm not winging it, I'm just going along with scripture, you're the one having to interject philosophy and do nothing but imply everything. I've mentioned Rom 8:7-8 and 1 Cor 2:14 many times, and you conveniently just run off to another rabbit trail...
Those WHOM he foreknew He predestined, called, justified and glorified !
ronathanedwards 6 months ago
@ronathanedwards Grace comes from God but, faith is mans responsibility. God "foreknows" everybody.. since before the beginning. So, if He 'predestines' those Hes foreknown.. and called, justified and glorified them.... it must be that ALL are going to Heaven... and we both know this is not correct. So, being that God foreknows all.. and He calls all.. but, man has to cooperate. The stain of original sin has made it so that, even though His Will is that none should perish, more do than not.
margovallen 6 months ago
Why is that the case? It is simply because God has indeed given man free-will to choose. Not because God had 'elected' a select number of people in the world to be saved and the rest would perish. Does that really make sense to you? Jesus did it all, starting on the way to the Cross, while on the cross and through His ascension. He did it for everyone and if only one individual had gotten saved, His mission would not had been in vain.
The whole world was lost.. why would He die for only a few?
margovallen 6 months ago
@margovallen There's your mantra again, and you think that actually proves something, but your mantra hasn't been supported yet. Until you can support it with explicit scripture, your "God gave man self determinate free will" mantra is worthless.
He died for the MANY! By the way Many is LESS than ALL. Chew on that for awhile.
ronathanedwards 6 months ago
@margovallen Wrong margo, God "foreknows" (verb) "knowing" as a verb portrays an intimate special relationship. Adam "knew" Eve and she conceived... God's "foreknowledge" is a NOUN that portrays impersonal knowing of facts, events, actions.
If you use foreknowing like foreknowledge in this verse you would be correct in saying that God then WOULD be saving everyone (and then you actually used a verse explicitly, yeh!) But God's steadfast love is for those WHOM (personal) He for-loved (verb).
ronathanedwards 6 months ago
@ronathanedwards Whatever! 1 John 5:1 says "Whosoever believes Jesus is the Christ, is born of God..and every one that love him that begat love him also that is begotten of him." Has nothing to do with being born again in order to believe.... and everything to do with whosoever believes He's the Christ is born of God. "Belief" is a choice. We choose to believe.
Back to the drawing-board for you, my friend :-)
margovallen 6 months ago
@margovallen Saying "it has nothing to do with it" has to be backed up in the text. "Born Again" means "fertilized by" "generated by" The word "generated" actually comes from the word "gennaw" which is the word used here in the verse!!! The TENSE, margo of the verbs dictate the intended meaning of the author. Those "believing" (present tense) HAVE BEEN BORN (perfect tense). Look up what the perfect tense conveys margo... It conveys a CAUSE in the past,With a RESULT in the present. Result/ faith
ronathanedwards 6 months ago
@margovallen Still waiting for the answer to your own question...
Why did you believe the Gospel message and the person next to you didn't? WHY?
ronathanedwards 6 months ago
@ronathanedwards I chose to believe. Belief is a choice.
margovallen 6 months ago
@margovallen WHY did you choose and the other person didn't?
ronathanedwards 6 months ago
@ronathanedwards I was willing to do so.
margovallen 6 months ago
@margovallen Why were you willing and the other wasn't?
ronathanedwards 6 months ago
@ronathanedwards I have already stated the fact that, the Holy Spirit speaks to our hearts.. tugs at our heartstrings.. Jesus stands at the door of our hearts and He knocks. IF we open the door and allow Him to come in, He will. Many (most) ignore therefore, disallow Him to come in. Many resist the Holy Spirit.
You know lots about the Bible.... so, you know the Holy Spirit can be resisted.. and will eventually give up on an individual and allow that person to go his / her own way.
margovallen 6 months ago
@margovallen Your last statement is circular, you keep saying the same thing. This time you just added some things and changed "I chose/I willed" to "I opened the door".... This does not answer the question of WHY you did those things and the person next to you didn't.
The Holy Spirit "gives up"? Your FOUNDATIONAL beliefs are based on language like that? No scripture? Where does it EVER say the H.S. "gives up"? God accomplishes ALL the PURPOSES. What's the PURPOSE of the H.S. in this?
ronathanedwards 6 months ago
@ronathanedwards So, now you're going to pick apart how I word thing? I get it. You're not trying to understand what I am trying to convey. Linguistic semantics.
margovallen 6 months ago
@margovallen Nope, it's logic. Your just saying the same thing but wording it differently, the problem is the statement you keep saying (and changing) doesn't answer the question, that's the problem.
What I'm trying to get you to see is if you did something while the other didn't, there is a difference of VIRTUE between you and the other. If God does the SAME thing for both of you, you merited something because you are smarter, more pious, more humble than the other. You have something to boast
ronathanedwards 6 months ago
@ronathanedwards God and the things of Him surpass 'logic' and the reason I acted on God's call and others didn't is because, I took it seriously I took God at His word and frankly, didn't care to spend eternity in Hell. And while that is still true, I have come to fall in love with God more over the span of my walk.. and appreciate Him for what He has done for me.. taking my sins upon Himself in so that I won't have to suffer Gods judgment in Hell :-)
margovallen 6 months ago
@margovallen God and the thing of Him "surpass logic"? That doesn't mean our arguments are to be illogical. God is perfect, His "logic" is perfect, He is a God of order and so is his Word. That's why it is inerrant.
So, the difference between you being saved and the other person is "You took it seriously" and the other person didn't. Therefore, you have reason to boast in your salvation because it was your seriousness that saved you. You want to say that, huh?
ronathanedwards 6 months ago
@ronathanedwards You've made several "subtle" references to my being spiritually / intellectually incompetent. Shows your own vast insecurities toward women who may know a thing or two about the Word of God. I knew exactly what the Bible speaks of per women teaching men... and why.
I get my info from the scriptures... God, the Father.. Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit. Surely not from the likes of John Calvin. He was just a man.. as were ALL those guys. Who says he was closer to God than I?
margovallen 6 months ago
I should've said "Human-logic"... and intellect. In other words, if you're doing a book-report, you can utilize your intellect per the Bible. But, getting it in us making it part of us and accurately interpreting it, having the Holy Spirit is paramount. Who says John Calvin or Jacobus Arminius had the Holy Spirit? Of course, Calvinists and Arminians say they did. But, I know I'm saved and when I read God's Word and compare it to the doctrines of these people, I see discrepancies on their part.
margovallen 6 months ago
@margovallen So far all your arguments fall lock and step with the Arminians.
I see MASSIVE amounts of discrepancies with Arminius and I see some with Calvin. So? That doesn't mean anything. John Calvin's understanding of Scripture, as far as the Ordo Salutis is concerned, is much more accurate than Jacobus' and definitely more than you! Both men subjected themselves to teachers as scripture commands, you should also and if anything not to think oneself higher than a Church father!... wow!
ronathanedwards 6 months ago
@margovallen No, you are inferring that yourself. I don't think you are intellectually incompetent, that actually might show your insecurities, not mine.
You get your information through the Word, yes, but you have been indoctrinated by teachings of men, if you say you haven't, you are being extremely dishonest with yourself. Pastors, teachers, radio preachers, books, commentaries... they all influence your understanding..... and they are all "men".
ronathanedwards 6 months ago
@ronathanedwards I usually say what I wanna say. So, who is trying to put words in whose mouth? And you're a mind-reader too? Holy Smoke!
I yielded to the Spirit and received salvation by faith. End of story! You're trying every way way in the world.. every angle possible, to back up the philosophy of John Calvin.
Forget about him and get into the Word and allow God to show you first-handedly.. in lieu of using someone elses doctrine as a guide-line. Makes no sense!
margovallen 6 months ago
@margovallen Margo, no matter what word you use, it is still you being more virtuous than the person that didn't get saved. You are saved because of your virtue and merit salvation because of it, glory to Margo!
ronathanedwards 6 months ago
@ronathanedwards Logic, according to whom? Dr. Spock??? I change the way I say something because you seem to be learning-challenged. The meaning, I've not changed.
All of what you're trying to dig out of me doesn't matter. I don't care if I have any bragging rights or not... I have no desire to boast about anything.. especially my own salvation.
You complicate things.. and you'll not lead many to Christ that way. When they perish.. and they will, you will have helped them to do so. Sadly.
margovallen 6 months ago
@margovallen The problem is Margo, it doesn't matter if you boast in it or not, Paul said one does not have a FOUNDATION or REASON to boast, you however DO have a foundation or reason to boast whether you boast or not, that is, you were smarter, more serious, more logical than the one not saved, glory to Margo!
No margo, you might get a bunch of "decisions" for people, yet in reality they went away from you more deceived about their salvation than when they came to you.
ronathanedwards 6 months ago
I guess that I should've said "the Holy Spirit turns away".. leaving those of whom 'stiffen their necks' to themselves to go their own way.
Acts 7:51 "Ye STIFFNECKED and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye."
Proof man can indeed RESIST THE HOLY SPIRIT :-)
margovallen 6 months ago