On "the world of fake sounds" article at boingboing, a commenter pointed out the following in response to this video:
"Note that tire noise goes up on the order of the *fourth* power of the velocity. Those cars were moving along at a good rate of speed.
Now go back and tape both cars, moving at 10-12 miles per hour (as they would be if they just started up from a stop sign and are about to hit a pedestrian)."
We are a bit luckier regarding the price here in Denmark, as the iMiew costs about the same (actually it costs the equivalent of 32600 £ - but that must be due to a price drop from Mitsubishi), but all normal cars have to be charged with registration taxes of 180% of the price of the car. All electric cars - on the other hand - are completely free of this, and they are therefore allot more competitive.
If they could make a recharge about 5-10 min long, they could be recharged in much the same way you refill petrol, without making too long queues at the recharging station.
Offcourse, there needs to be a infrastructure capable of delivering that power, and guess what, the train network could do it ! Build recharging stations near train stations, and you are good to go in an urban environment, because there are so many stations.
@Jesus45U - That's brilliant. If the supply for electric trains can cope with trains which in some cases need upwards of 10,000 KW to power them, surely they can help power a charging station for a car with a 50 kwh battery... (OK, so not all infrastructure can cope with that kind of load, especially not with a lot of cars charging at once, but it's still a really good idea overall.)
The train network would probably not be able to power the entire infrastructure if everyone changed to electrical cars, but it would certainly be a good start. And there's plenty of space next to most rail tracks, that you could add more powerlines for future expansion.
The real issue here, is that electrical cars are not very useful because they take so long to recharge, this could help alliviate that problem, making them more useful.
@Jesus45U Well, safety issues aside, if you can supply something in the order of 300 KW, you can recharge a battery suitable for a 300 mile range in about 10 minutes. - Given a supply network designed for sustained loads quite a bit higher than that, it certainly isn't a bad starting point.
Though I'd think a hundred miles would be enough if you had recharging facilities in the local area. Less batteries, less weight, better performance and shorter recharge time.
@Jesus45U - True. It rather depends on what you're using the vehicle for, and how much infrastructure exists though. I guess I'm just going off the vehicles that have the longest known ranges, rather than the more typical designs.
Bearing in mind that a lot less people would use recharging stations. Only about 5% of all journeys statistically exceed the range of a typical EV. Whereas Mr or Mrs 5 miles-a-day still has to use the pump like everyone else.
Add home charging to the mix (which should take place of more than 75% of all EV charging) and add chargers to places like supermarkets, and you suddenly have less of a 'queue to charge' problem than you'd expect.
Plus people who lives in low rent apartments won't have the luxury of home charging and low rent areas seldomly gets fancy stuff like charging pole thingies ... not to mention all it takes to make an entire street of people late for work the next day, is a hoodlum unplugging their cars as they walk down the street. Less than optimal.
Ultimately, fast recharge stations are absolutely necesary for EV's to succeed.
In Norway patrol is a little more than USD 2/liter. Our Electricity is not too expensive and comes from clean watersources. This would be a perfect second car for all the small trips.
The price in Norway is also much lover than in this video. About 26500 pound.
In australia electricity costs twice as much as uk and if these cars take over petrol cars electricity will cost more and these cars will cost just as much to run if not more than petrol cars today.
@REPOMAN24722 that's rather doubtful. having one of these might double the household electricity use.. Maybe even triple it. But statistically, household electricity supply is trivial compared to industrial uses. Aside from which, the way electricity is priced is based on the most expensive possible source the supplier has... This might drive up the cost of electricity a little, but it'd have to get about 5-10 times more expensive to match petrol prices.
@REPOMAN24722 That makes a lot of assumptions about infrastructure and cost. Using current LPG prices, but then speculating electricity prices will go up isn't really very fair. (technology estimates predict running costs of electric cars will go down as infrastructure improves). Incendentally, Australia is one of the countries intending to implement battery swapping systems to get around range problems.
@KuraIthys Electricity has gone up over double in the past year here, i has not stopped going up since i can remember, there is no need for it to cost this much, it is because of greed, people are always going to be greedy so prices will always go up, its capitalism and that's the way it is based on greed since the day it was established..
@REPOMAN24722 - And you quoted fuel prices that were about 50% higher than I remember from the last time I was in Australia. On a basic level, electric motors are 3-4 more efficient than combustion engines. This should be reflected in the costs involved, but batteries have a horrible energy density compared to petrol & LPG. The Tesla S claims a range of around 480 km. But the battery to make that possible weighs more than 500kg. Even so, the real problem remains the use of non-renewable energy.
@KuraIthys Well i drove today and I saw the prices at 1.56 per litre and I cant drive an electric car, I have tinnitus and driving a silent car would drive me crazy. Petrol has gone down since 2008, back then proces were 1.86 but they are going up again, but electric cars are not the future, you have to dispose of these bateries at some point and if everyone drives one that's allot of batteries.
@REPOMAN24722 I can't really counter every problem in a youtube comment. Electric cars aren't silent, but even then that's a pretty unusual problem. Batteries contain a lot of valuable materials, and can be reconditioned, and largely recycled. I believe electric cars can be practical, but they need infrstructure which isn't there. Petrol has a huge amount of existing infrastructure, which is difficult to compete with if you need to start again from the ground up.
@REPOMAN24722 - Except that hydrogen has to be produced, transported, stored... It's currently a petroleum byproduct. The alternative is to generate hydrogen by electrolysis, which... Requires electricity. (And actually, more electricity than you get back from the hydrogen.). Add to that that fuel cells are insanely expensive, require rare materials, and suddenly hydrogen costs a small fortune, and doesn't seem so practical anymore.
@REPOMAN24722 In a manner of speaking, yes. But that's a little short-sighted. 'As good as' isn't necessarily what's necessary. It's just what we're used to. Battery-Electric cars have the advantage over hydrogen simply because they are viable NOW, rather than in 20 years time... (see the previous video (Honda FCX Clarity) in this series for issues to do with hydrogen explained reasonably well.)
@REPOMAN24722 That's not really the point. The Honda review shows most of the problems with hydrogen. It's also one of the few working prototypes of a hydrogen powered car currently in existence.
The claim by car manufacturers that the batteries are the cause of the high cost is simply a lie.
The price for LiFePO4 (Lithum) cells (Such as those made by "Thundersky" in China) is around $1 per AmpHour. The cell voltage of these cells is around 3.2V, so that works out to 1x3.2=3.2WattHours per dollar.
An electric car requires a battery pack of ~20'000Wh. 20'000/3.2=6250$.
Nowhere near the price claimed by Mitsubishi.
DIY electric car builders all over the world are using these batteries.
@pxidr In this very video, Mitsubish claims that the batteries for iMiev costs two thirds of £30'000. That is £20'000, which is six times the actual cost of 16kWh Lithium batteries from Thundersky or any other large LiFePO4 Lithium cell manufacturer.
Someone is outright lying. Perhaps something for the "fully charged show" to investigate?
Breaking news - the Vauxhall Ampera will have an 8 year/100,000 miles warranty on its battery. AKA the Chevy Volt if you are from the US. Will Nissan and Mitsubishi match this? Like I have posted elsewhere, I think the Volt/Ampera offers the best solution. If you are going on short trips, you use its battery. If you want to go on a longer drive, you have a range extender. No range anxiety!
@j101saar I don't have range anxiety with my EV because I know it's range and the range fits my needs. My "range extender" is in my other car, an ICE, so I don't need to carry it around with me 99% of the time when I don't need it. Sure, the Volt is a good solution for people in a one car family who really need the range, but that doesn't make it the "best" solution for all.
@JRP3 OK, so it's efficient, cost effective and desirable to have to buy two cars because neither does all you want it too? The fact is you can only use one car at a time, and if it fulfills all your needs, then the same car can be used, all of the time. This is where the idea of the Volt shines. You go ahead and run two cars to do what my one car can do; I'll spend the difference on enjoying life : )
@j101saar Please read with comprehension. Two car families, which means you'll have two cars already. Besides, my two used cars cost less than a volt. For many people a 100 mile EV will do everything they need. Not everyone thinks they need to drive 100's of miles on a whim. There is also the option of renting on the few occasions where you might. If you do drive more than 100 miles on a regular basis then yes, the Volt is a good choice.
@JRP3 The volt is expected to cost $30k (about £19.5k) - that's cheaper than the Leaf and the I-MIEV. The I-Miev will do as little as 45 miles, the leaf 47 miles on a charge (acc to manufacturers). The problem with 100% EV's is range 'variability'; the volt overcomes this. If you are looking to replace either one of your cars, something like the volt would be better than an equivalent 100% EV. Comprehend?
@j101saar The 47 mile figure is worst case and unlikely to ever happen. Why not quote the 138 mile figure? Most people drive less than 40 mile a day. For many people with two vehicles the Leaf could easily replace one. Comprehend?
@JRP3 If they drive less than 40 miles a day, they could still use the Volt. With a battery range of 40 miles, it would use no petrol. You would not need to worry about the effect of charging every day as it comes with a 100k miles/8 year warranty. However, on those days you want to go on say a higher speed A road or motorway trip, you can, without running out of juice. It's cheaper, it makes more sense. Admit it.
@j101saar The Leaf actually lets you drive on electricity for 100 miles or so, without paying for petrol, which saves you money. So you can go on a longer trip than 40 miles with a Leaf using only electricity. You can't with a Volt. As I said, a Volt may make sense for some people, but so does a Leaf.
@JRP3 If you take battery depreciation into account, the Leaf's lifetime cost per charge is the same as a 50-60mpg ICE (of which there are many). With the Leaf you may get 100 miles, but there's massive variability of 47 miles to 138 miles. It is easy to get caught out. Most trips are < 40 miles - and so the Volt will meet most people's needs using only electricity. The Volt is much more economical & practical.
@j101saar Battery depreciation values are completely speculative, and Nissan is planning on after vehicle use for the batteries as backup power supplies, since they will still function just at a reduced capacity. It's not easy to get caught out of charge, unless you're a moron. 10,000 people run out of gas every day, so I'm sure it will happen, and someone will run out of gas in a Volt. The jury is still out on how economical and practical the Volt will be.
@JRP3 Battery depreciation isn't really speculative. I've based my calculations on what the manufacturer says. Once the battery is knackered, it is doubtful that most consumers will spend somewhere between £10k and £25k on a new one to put in their, by then, tired old car. Just as they currently wouldn't spend £2-3k on a new petrol engine. Range variability will not be the problem for Volts it is for Leafs.
@j101saar As I said, and you are ignoring, the "old" battery will still have value in other markets, and that value can be put against the cost of a new pack. Additionally, in 5-10 years a replacement pack will very likely be a lot better and a lot cheaper. Not to mention there is much less to wear out in an EV, no exhaust problems, no radiators and water pumps, smog pumps, brakes will have less wear, the motor should be fine, so putting money into an older vehicle could be a good option.
@JRP3 Future battery technology is completely speculative. As is the alternative use of the batteries when they are removed. Therefore you are talking about an unknown. True an EV will have less to go wrong. However the Leaf has batteries which will be... expensive... when they go wrong; if not for the consumer then the manufacturer. Battery performance will decline by 20-30% over its lifetime also.
@j101saar It's not much of leap to project maturing manufacturing technologies, battery optimization, and economies of scale will all lead to better and cheaper products. That's generally the way of technology and what we've been seeing in the past few years. Sure a battery failure will be expensive for Nissan, as it will be for GM. GM also has to worry about the ICE side of their product, so they have many more potential failure points than a pure EV. The Volt is more likely to have problems
@JRP3 New technology doesn't develop in a linear fashion. Have you heard of diminishing returns? The Volt's ICE will be easy to fix, probably inexpensive too (the battery has that warranty also). The ICE will get used infrequently, reducing mileage and wear. Something like a Volt is a great platform, the ICE smooths out the range variability, but can be phased out gradually as batteries improve.
@j101saar Yes there are diminishing returns on mature technology, which lithium batteries are not. The Volt ICE inexpensive to fix? Have you ever had to do major repairs to an ICE vehicle? Not to mention you have two separate yet integrated systems with the Volt, it's more complex than an ICE or a BEV. You think it's a good idea to carry around an ICE and subsystems that will almost never be used. I'd rather carry around more batteries.
@JRP3 You're not aware of the fusion power dream then? ICE's aren't expensive to fix if we are talking about an engine with comparable performance to the Leaf. A replacement engine on a Ford Fiesta costs around £2-3k to buy and install. How much will a replacement Leaf battery cost? 10x as much. I'd rather have two integrated systems in one car, than your alternative of having two cars LOL
@j101saar You're really trying too hard, and don't have the facts. 10x as much? Not even close. Leaf battery is 24KWH, my 12KWH pack cost me about $4K, last year, do the math. An ICE might cost $1K just to replace the exhaust system. Again, many people already have two cars, no reason one can't be a BEV.
@JRP3 Figure it out. The Mitsubishi i costs £9.5k new, the EV costs £33,700. Difference = £24.2k. The Leaf will cost £28,350, a Micra costs £11.7k - difference = £16.65k. (Ignoring subsidies). The difference is largely down to the battery. If you think the leaf battery only costs $8k (£5.2k), you are living in cloud cuckoo land. My ICE has done 100k miles with only routine servicing - sorry yours is so expensive!
@j101saar So you think the only cost difference is in the batteries, and that Nissan pays far more for batteries as a huge corporation than I do as an individual? Sure, I'm the one in "cuckoo land". How about the electric motor, controller, charger, and battery management system, that are all new products and have not had 100 years of production refinement and volume to drive costs down? As for your routine ICE servicing, add that all up and subtract it from the cost of owning a BEV.
@JRP3 Now you're trying too hard. Electric motors new technology? Hmm. Controllers new technology? Hmm. Chargers? Hmm. The battery management system may cost a little - however they managed it in the 90s with the EV1 etc, so I doubt its expensive given the advances since then. I think we both want the same thing - a successful EV. We disagree on what that is, right now.
@j101saar Variable speed three phase and BLDC electric motors built in quantity for EV use, yes that's new technology. Microprocessor controlled inverters, battery chargers, and management systems, yes, that's all new technology. EV1 didn't need the same type of cell management. More to the point, it's not yet produced in the volumes that would lower prices the way ICE components are. Which goes directly to my point that EV components other than the batteries are very expensive, for now.
@JRP3 My response to your points in a word: unconvincing. It's just a different application of tried & tested technologies. The cost is not justified - especially when we are talking about major car companies. EVs with similar range were being knocked out in the 90's. The leaf doesn't even have an active thermal management system - it's pretty basic stuff. Watch Rob's video again - the battery is the big cost.
@j101saar Sorry you're not convinced, but I've actively been involved in researching and pricing EV systems for a while. I know that BMW paid ACP $11K each for the motor/controller system used in the MiniE for example, in quantity, I know that UQM charges $25K for single units of their system, even half that would be $12.5K. Yes EV's similar to these were produced in the 90's, and the costs were extremely high for the same reasons. The components are still made in very small quantities.
@JRP3 goto autoevolution dotcom slash news slash ev-depreciation-rate-21772 dothtml. The leaf battery makes up more than half the price. They agree with me that depreciation is going to be a real issue. Doesn't it make the long warranty the volt offers look encouraging LOL.
@j101saar LOL, as I've previously commented, that article is so far off the mark any "conclusions" they come to must be discounted as fantasy. 10% value after 5 years? What a joke. Any 5 year old vehicle will have little wear, an EV even less. I'll buy used 5 year old Leafs for $3K all day long, it's still an 80 mile EV. Sorry, but the motor, controller, and charger alone are worth over $10K. You and the person who wrote the article obviously have not tried to buy one, I have.
@JRP3 We are talking about Glass's, which has been valuing vehicles for over 75 years and you think they don't have any authority when it comes to predicting depreciation? Hmm. What something costs, and what it is worth, are two different things. Although I have to agree I'd buy one too for £2-3k, however by then the range will likely vary between 33 miles and 97 miles.
@j101saar They've obviously had zero experience valuing EV's. They also seem to miss the value of not buying gasoline or oil, that's a real world cost savings. Please explain how 8 year old RAV4EV's are still selling for $30K and more? Glass's doesn't have a clue about EV's, and they've proved it.
Fantastic video Robert. My favourite bit was 'are electric cars silent..?' and then the Petrol...Electric...Petrol...Electric test lol. Very funny but shows perfectly that there is 'no' difference in sound. Can't wait for the next episode. Well done.
@paultrd The silent bit was a bit naughty really as the issue is not with vehicles at high speed as Robert showed but with relativity low speed vehicles. As a cyclist in a congested city I have been almost caught out by an electric van, that pulled out silently and without indicating(and without looking), now on congested bits of road I am in habit of looking out vehicles with tailpipes and am doubly cautious around them
Well done! It's a funky-looking little thing, but I wouldn't mind having one. I think your e-proselytizing was pretty even-handed, not too over the top. Oh, and the clean-shaven look wins for me, too, FWIW!
By all means, keep up the good work. Something on generally-available conversions (i.e., not DIY, but reputable companies) would be nice.
Didn't emphasize one important thing in your reasoning for why the iMIEV is so expensive (although you did kind of go over it). The main reason is there are only going to be a couple thousand iMIEVs made per year. Cars have to be made in the hundreds of thousands to be affordable. This is what Nissan is going to do with the Leaf. It'll $33k in the US, £28k in the UK, both prices before any government incentives. That's much better than the £38k for the iMIEV.
10 years ago i gave up the opportunity to buy a farm to instead buy a Honda Insight. The car has given me as high as 83 miles per gallon of gas on a 60 mile commute, but its hard to garden in. I try to balance my low income with responsibility to keep the planet alive... I know I will be traveling distances, but compared to finally owning a home again or healthcare, purchasing an electric car is a hard decision I haven't taken a final stand on. (I am tho' on two ev car reservation lists.)
Great episode Robert. I enjoyed the sound comparison at the end - and even at low speeds I suspect electric cars, though quiet, aren't totally silent either. Most small-engined modern petrol cars are almost silent in traffic so I can't see any justification for the impending regulations requiring them to make a noise.
Nice take on the screenwash cost too. Taking away the cost of fuel and of most servicing items that ICE cars require, I'm sure other car-related goodies would seem expensive!
They need to sell the cars without batteries and you should be able to lease the batteries from a different company. The only thing they have to solve is make the batteries standardized so that they fit different cars! If you agree vote up :)
@kuzlovsky12 Standardization of battery packs does tend to reduce costs to consumers. However, leasing increases the costs. Why would you want to increase the cost of the battery?
I've been using my work's MiEV for 4 weeks now. It's a brilliant little car to drive, performance is impressive, and is operating at an economy equivalent to over 300mpg. Thanks for the review Bob.
5 years ago, a realistic electric family vehicle was not even on the radar. Now it is a reality. Think about this. In 1909, the Ford Model T cost $850usd which is around $20,500 in today. Would you buy a Model T to use as your primary car today? No. The amount of car for your dollar has grown a lot. The same will be found for electric vehicles provided the integration of infrastructure. That takes time, not 100 years, but I see less than a decade if development continues on current scale.
@Woodee The problem with regeneration while moving forward is that as speed increases, resistance increases exponentially. This renders the concept useless as it soon requires much more energy to propel than it is producing and more energy than if it didn't have it in the first place.
Most of the electric cars (and hybrids) use regeneration in braking where the resistance is actually advantageous. Problem there is actually reversed, slow braking is less electric produced than at high speed.
robert, have you killed any pedestrians yet? Seriously though, what is the general reaction when pedestrians are on the streets and your driving at low speeds below 25mph? I've sent an email to the RNIB for their support and the opposition to the latest laws coming to pass in america, haven't heard anything yet
I love the jellybean, but as others have stated the Quoted estimated price is too high! It needs to come down a couple of grand below the leaf. I've heard the leaf' build quality is superior and it's more loaded with gadgets
The vehicle price is a problem for now. Hopefully this will progressively get lower. I think the other issue is just the volume. You can't sell a car (any car) for (say) $15,000 unless you are making them in volume (about 100,000 per year).
Wow I was shocked at the retail price! I love the idea and a car like that would be a great replacement for my own run around. But that initial price is just the only stopping point! Just get some decent designers on it!
Also the noise of the car comes from the tyre rubbing on the road. I imagine at slower speeds it would be quieter in comparison but people walk out on petrol cars because they are not paying attention anyway. An electric car wont make any difference.
@ultimazer1 Making them exchangeable increases cost rather than decreases them. Added cost for connectors, double enclosures. In what way does interchangebility decrease cost?
@JohnCBriggs: No, exchangeable batteries don't make the car any more expensive. Sure, you have to add the equipment you mentioned, but in the betterplace approach you no longer own the battery. The battery is owned by betterplace and you basically pay per mile - much like paying your cell phone bill. This way the cars costs as much as a petrol car and the cost per kilometer is still lower than with a petrol car.
@ultimazer1 Under what LOGIC does having BetterPlace involved decrease COST. BetterPlace INCREASES costs. You must pay the salary of the BetterPlace employees, the cost of battery switch stations, the cost of battery charging stations. All increases in cost. You are confusing cost and how cost is financed. If you want to spread the cost out over time, get a loan or get a lease. BetterPlace and swappable batteries only increase cost.
@JohnCBriggs: Well, betterplace is a company, so yes they want to earn money. But you as the customer don't have to pay the big price anymore. Nothing unlogical about that. Betterplace basically leases the battery to you plus you solve the range issue.
@JohnCBriggs: according to your logic any business model that leases sth. to you increases cost...so, no energy distributors, no car leasing or the like. the betterplace business model is used in many other places.
@ultimazer1 Ask yourself this question, what is the most expensive part of an EV? It is the battery, right. So in order to make battery swapping work, BetterPlace must store a significant number of additional batteries at the battery swapping station. These are an added expense that Nissan LEAF owners will not have. Also, for BetterPlace, you must have one of their charging stations at home, also an additional expense that you must pay for.
@JohnCBriggs: well, betterplace has to pay for battery and that's it. We need spare batteries for this system - but the business model generates that money and it's still cheaper for the car owners than owning the battery plus you don't need to worry about range anymore. Sry, I don't get your point :D
i'm not sure about the special charger you need at home...you should be able to plug it into any usual outlet.
@ultimazer1 Let's try an example. Say the battery is $8000 for a LEAF. That is the only cost on that vehicle. That is all that needs to be paid for. Now for BetterPlace, the battery is $8000 and a replacement battery is $8000. This is $16,000 that needs to be paid for. The BetterPlace customer must pay for the $16,000 so that it is more expensive than the LEAF. But yes, it solves the "Range Anxiety" issue assuming they can get this financially unsound business running.
@ultimazer1 For the BetterPlace model to work, you can ONLY plug in to a BetterPlace charger. So you cannot connect at your Grandmother's house or any other place. This is how they charge you per mile. You must use their charger.
@JohnCBriggs: even if you need a special charging station at home...paying 200 EUR for that and then "x cent/mile" is still WAY cheaper than owning the battery.
@ultimazer1 Firstly, chargers are more typically $2000. Secondly, you are missing the point. Chargers, spare batteries, battery swapping stations all add cost. You seem to think BetterPlace is paying these costs. But YOU are paying for these costs. The only place BetterPlace gets money is from YOU. So if they have higher costs (and they do) then you have to pay them.
@JohnCBriggs: I understand what you mean, but I still believe the costs is lower with en exchangeable battery. This why: If the battery makes up 2/3 of the car's price it's more likely worth around 20.000 EUR. Owning the battery+car is only cheaper when you keep the car for 20 years or so which is not likely. Paying x cents per mile over 10 years plus "interest" for the overhead is still cheaper than buying a battery with a new car every 10 years.
@ultimazer1 Let's say Person A and Person B are each given bank accounts with $50,000. Person A purchases and Toyota Camry and Person B leases the same. After 3 years, Person A sells the car and deposits the money into the bank account and Person B returns the car to the leaser. Who has more money in the bank account at the end of the experiment? Person A, Why because the leasing company is making a profit.
@JohnCBriggs: Owning car AND battery: around 30.000 EUR (Leaf or iMiev) + electricity costs to charge it. Betterplace: 10.000-15.000 for the car + 3 cents/mile or so. What option is cheaper for an individual customer totally depends on how much you use your car and over what time span. If you use it a lot, at some point owning it becomes cheaper. STILL, a fixed battery will never ever give you unlimited range unless fast charging in 5 Minutes becomes possible which it isn't atm.
@ultimazer1 Do you have any evidence to suggest BetterPlace is charging 3 cents/mile? I suspect 30 cents/mile is more likely. At $15,000 per battery and a battery life of 100,000 miles, the battery cost alone is 15 cent/mile. Add to that the electricity cost 2 cent/mile. Now you are at 17 cent/mile and you have not yet included the cost of the charging stations and battery swapping stations. I would suggest to you 30 cents/mile is what will be charged by BetterPlace.
@JohnCBriggs: I looked it up again. A quote from a website: "A gasoline-powered car costs about 12 cents a mile to drive when gas costs $3 a gallon. Electricity costs approximately 3 cents a mile. That means Better Place has a margin of 3 cents per mile before people start complaining about the cost of powering up electric vehicles."
If their prices are higher than 12 cents they wouldn't be competitive plus they need a margin...so no, the cost will be under 12 cents/mile.
@ultimazer1 Nice, I think we are making progress here. OK, so 12 cents/mile the battery lasts 100,000 miles therefore if someone uses the whole battery $0.12/mile times 100,000 miles or $12,000 of income for BetterPlace. Unfortunately they paid $15,000 for the battery so they just lost $3,000. Hopefully you can see where this is going. They have to charge something like 30 cent/mile to make their business work.
@JohnCBriggs: Well betterplace said their price would be under that of petrol/mile...so the price has to be under 12 cents/mile. They actually recycle the batteries and use them for much more miles which would make things cheaper for them and fill the price gap. I don't know how it works in every last detail but it must be working in a profitable way - otherwise they wouldn't do it, ey? :)
@ultimazer1 Well at least I understand your logic now. You think the BetterPlace scheme will be cheaper because BetterPlace said it would be cheaper. But we should keep in mind that BetterPlace is not currently in the business of leasing batteries for x cent/mile. They are currently in the business of attracting government and investor money and building prototype battery swapping stations for 90 day trials in Japan using mules.
@JohnCBriggs: haha, no, as I said: paying x cents/mile is cheaper unless you drive 200k every day or you buy a new car only every 20 years which is unlikely especially with such new tech which will be further improved. Their projects in Denmark, Isreal and Australia will show what it's really like. Until then everything is just speculation.
@ultimazer1 Right, when they announce what x cent/mile really is, then we will know. But brace yourself a high price that can actually cover the cost of the battery and all the infrastructure.
@ultimazer1 This morning I spent some time on the BetterPlace website and noticeably absent is any claim about their scheme being cheaper than gasoline (petrol). They emphasize their technology and not the economic benefits. Perhaps they have figured out that they system will actually be more expensive.
@JohnCBriggs: in the videos (they have their own youtube channel and there are many interviews aside from that) they often talk about pricing. Have a look there.
@ultimazer1 Oh I have watch all their videos and subscribe to their youtube channel. I know they have claimed to be competitive with gasoline (petrol). However, I was just wondering when was the last time they have made that claim.
@JohnCBriggs: I don't have much time right now but I found this: watch?v=gNIijgJcsbs
about about 10mins into the video he says it's 7 cents per mile and at the end he also talks about fast charging which is not feasible due to he laws of physics so for the range's sake swapping batteries is inevitable. They recycle the batteries 3 times I read somewhere. They have to reduce the size/range in the process but use is extended ...but only reality will show whether all this is a sound concept ;)
@ultimazer1: not fast charging in general that is but fast charging within the time it needs to fill up a petrol tank which is about 5 mins. Batterie swapping allows for this, fast charging will never be possible in that time frame without frying the grid
@ultimazer1 In more recent news.. Japanese company JFE engineering can half charge a i-miev battery in 3minutes, 0-70% in 5 minutes. Mitsubishi's own level3 charger takes as seen in the video 15-30 mins..The better place model is better for fleets such as taxi's, rental and company cars/delivery etc...just search for "better place tokyo taxi" and you'll see a 1 minute battery swap in tokyo's branch
@eldictator1: I know about the taxi trial. Sure, fast charging to even 100% is possible within 5mins...but it takes so much power that this would simply fry the grid. For just one car it's like switching 750 fully lit apartments an and off in 5 minute intervals. Interpolate this for thousands of cars and charging spots...not feasible atm. Battery swapping is atm the only way for unlimited range plus its cheaper unless you drive A LOT or you only buy a car every 20 years...
@ultimazer1 Battery swapping will not happen. No one will adopt a standard, swapping means every car needs extra batteries available, the most expensive part, so that makes EV's more expensive, not less, as does designing a swappable pack. Storing and transporting the batteries all over the place, plus building the swap stations also makes EV's cost more. No major manufacturer is using Project Better Place's system. Improved range and technology will mean even less need for swapping. Fail.
@ultimazer1 Actually fast charge stations can store charge overnight when grid use is low, and they can use cheaper battery chemistries to do so. Then they can use some of that during the day if grid demand is too high. Plus, people might just have to wait a few more minutes sometimes, just as when there is a long line at the gas station. Most people will charge at home, overnight, when it's cheaper. Why pay extra and spend time at a charge station if you don't have to?
@eldictator1 You know why taxis and such probably won't use swapping either? Because they are all based on production vehicles, and no fleet producers are going to add the extra expense of building a swappable pack just for a few taxi fleets. Besides, the average taxi drives less than 150 miles a day, which a Nissan Leaf can handle with a single moderately fast charge during a lunch break.
@JRP3 type "Tokyo Electric Taxi Project overview " into the youtube search...tbh I'm not a great proponent for the better place model, but having actually watched an actual vid I'm more acceptable
@eldictator1 Oh I've seen it, but I still don't think it's going to catch on for the same reasons I've previously mentioned. It adds cost, and it's not necessary. For 150 mile range which makes more sense, having two 75 mile swappable packs, plus the swap machine, or do a 15-30 minute charge? Or just building a 150 mile pack would be cheaper than two swappable packs and the machine.
@JRP3 Yeah, I'm not disagreeing. Like I say I think a fleet of delivery vehicles/pubic transport etc would benefit more from this model.They have the infrastucture i.e large warehouses and yards to accomodate
I think that batteries in the next ten years will have increased in range so much and charging will be sub 10 minutes for most street outlets, that it will be obsolete before it catches on with the public
Every automotive engineer knows that no matter how much time and efforrt they put into combustion engine design, it is never going to be more that 30-35% efficient in term of the energy input via fuel. But these days efficiency is the biggest automotive engineering challenge. It's management of these companies that are holding the technology back by strangling the purse strings, as these electric cars don't produce enough profit over there lifetimes.
It's amusing how Topgear and the main stream really don't cover alternative-powered vehicles. But the likes of this iMiev are still uneconomically sound. I think it's a slightly unfair analogy made of engineers. In fact, I believe that the majority of automotive engineers are more interested in new technologies, and really making it work from a economical standpoint, because the current CI systems have been done to death.
Nicely done. I dont know why but I always smile every time I hear the whine of that electric motor :) See! I agree that the chargers and the cars being expensive BUT the cost compared to just a few years ago has been dramatically reduced and it will follow the same law as consumer electronics. Theres no doubt that electric cars are here and here to stay if you take into consideration how much money and effort corporations, gov't and VC's are putting into making them work.
Very slick show, liked the top gear-ish intro too. wish i could afford an electric car which i guess is what most people feel these days. We are fed up with all the pollution & unnecessary ever spiraling cost of our cars with car tax, petrol and repairs. So if the imiev breaks down do Mistsubishi do the repairs them selfs ?
It'll be interesting to see how much they depreciate, especially the batteries. They must be worth a fair amount to someone who can recycle them. Plus the motor will probably outlast the car and never lose efficiency unlike an ICE.
@ninjabob2456 Never lose efficiency? Not quite true... All lithium cell specs quote numbers like 85% of original capacity after x1000 cycles... EVerything wears out my friend...
@lockhughes This is true of standard Li-Ion Cells with deep cycling. Cells for these cars are different and may have as many as 10,000 cycles before dropping to 80% of original capacity. The battery must be good for 150,000 miles and 10 years to meet California standards.
@JohnCBriggs Toshiba have just as we speak announced theri mitsu partnership .Toshiba has developed a new original anode material and a new electrolyte that enhances both safety and rapid recharging. the SCiB battery offers an exceptionally long life of up to 20 years, is capable of accepting 6,000-plus charges and is rapid recharge ready and can increase the range..thisis what happens when money and R&D are put into car batteries
@eldictator1 I am optimistic about the performance of batteries going forward. However, I would suggest that the 20 year life has not been tested yet and difficult to prove. Time will tell.
@lockhughes I was talking about the actual motor, which lasts incredibly long with comparatively little wear due to having only one moving part. In this way it ought to retain value unlike ICEs which lose most of their value after just a few miles.
@ninjabob2456 Tks NinjaB... Ya, I'be been riding a BLDC most of ten years now. The maintenance schedule goes something like "...every 30,000hrs replace the two bearings..."
I run a petrol Smart..... I would kill for one of these (well not actually kill of course), but it has to be cheaper before I could consider it.. :-( We have to fix the economics somehow.
I have another car for long journeys and big loads, the Smart rarely does more than 30 miles round trip. Which is in line with so many other people. Perfect territory for an electric vehicle.... :sigh:
Truly fabulous review. Really did explain everything others don't. Much respect.
shaazy 1 week ago
I would love to drive that beast.
K1NGD0MDOWN 1 month ago
Mitsubishi is going to make a fortune my friends
MsH1h1h1h1 2 months ago
Great demo at the end, great series all around Robert !
Am watching each episode one after the other, without waiting a week for the TV station to air it...now that's fast charging for an info head too :)
slider2732 4 months ago
On "the world of fake sounds" article at boingboing, a commenter pointed out the following in response to this video:
"Note that tire noise goes up on the order of the *fourth* power of the velocity. Those cars were moving along at a good rate of speed.
Now go back and tape both cars, moving at 10-12 miles per hour (as they would be if they just started up from a stop sign and are about to hit a pedestrian)."
hypnosifl 8 months ago
9.10 seconds? In GT5 it's 15secs. Even world wide game software companies are stabbing electric cars in the back. The range is also unrealistic.
toyotaprius79 9 months ago
@toyotaprius79 GT5 also insults the tesla roadster. gives it 6 seconds to get to 60mph. should be wayyyy less.
Hirotoro4692 4 months ago
We are a bit luckier regarding the price here in Denmark, as the iMiew costs about the same (actually it costs the equivalent of 32600 £ - but that must be due to a price drop from Mitsubishi), but all normal cars have to be charged with registration taxes of 180% of the price of the car. All electric cars - on the other hand - are completely free of this, and they are therefore allot more competitive.
Lasse3333 9 months ago
evo @ 3.05 and 3.45
davidrunnenburg 1 year ago
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davidrunnenburg 1 year ago
If they could make a recharge about 5-10 min long, they could be recharged in much the same way you refill petrol, without making too long queues at the recharging station.
Offcourse, there needs to be a infrastructure capable of delivering that power, and guess what, the train network could do it ! Build recharging stations near train stations, and you are good to go in an urban environment, because there are so many stations.
Jesus45U 1 year ago 8
@Jesus45U - That's brilliant. If the supply for electric trains can cope with trains which in some cases need upwards of 10,000 KW to power them, surely they can help power a charging station for a car with a 50 kwh battery... (OK, so not all infrastructure can cope with that kind of load, especially not with a lot of cars charging at once, but it's still a really good idea overall.)
KuraIthys 9 months ago
@KuraIthys
The train network would probably not be able to power the entire infrastructure if everyone changed to electrical cars, but it would certainly be a good start. And there's plenty of space next to most rail tracks, that you could add more powerlines for future expansion.
The real issue here, is that electrical cars are not very useful because they take so long to recharge, this could help alliviate that problem, making them more useful.
Jesus45U 9 months ago
@Jesus45U Well, safety issues aside, if you can supply something in the order of 300 KW, you can recharge a battery suitable for a 300 mile range in about 10 minutes. - Given a supply network designed for sustained loads quite a bit higher than that, it certainly isn't a bad starting point.
KuraIthys 9 months ago
@KuraIthys
Exactly.
Though I'd think a hundred miles would be enough if you had recharging facilities in the local area. Less batteries, less weight, better performance and shorter recharge time.
Jesus45U 9 months ago
@Jesus45U - True. It rather depends on what you're using the vehicle for, and how much infrastructure exists though. I guess I'm just going off the vehicles that have the longest known ranges, rather than the more typical designs.
KuraIthys 9 months ago
@Jesus45U
Bearing in mind that a lot less people would use recharging stations. Only about 5% of all journeys statistically exceed the range of a typical EV. Whereas Mr or Mrs 5 miles-a-day still has to use the pump like everyone else.
Add home charging to the mix (which should take place of more than 75% of all EV charging) and add chargers to places like supermarkets, and you suddenly have less of a 'queue to charge' problem than you'd expect.
Hirotoro4692 4 months ago
@Hirotoro4692
True, but it still becomes a question of scale.
Plus people who lives in low rent apartments won't have the luxury of home charging and low rent areas seldomly gets fancy stuff like charging pole thingies ... not to mention all it takes to make an entire street of people late for work the next day, is a hoodlum unplugging their cars as they walk down the street. Less than optimal.
Ultimately, fast recharge stations are absolutely necesary for EV's to succeed.
Jesus45U 4 months ago
While watching your video an ad for a 4wd suv was displayed. Hmmm.....
helmutbjorg1 1 year ago
I want one..
In Norway patrol is a little more than USD 2/liter. Our Electricity is not too expensive and comes from clean watersources. This would be a perfect second car for all the small trips.
The price in Norway is also much lover than in this video. About 26500 pound.
daggad03 1 year ago
magnificant review !
I fully agree - thank you for your work
michelmueller 1 year ago 10
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michelmueller 1 year ago
In australia electricity costs twice as much as uk and if these cars take over petrol cars electricity will cost more and these cars will cost just as much to run if not more than petrol cars today.
REPOMAN24722 1 year ago
@REPOMAN24722 that's rather doubtful. having one of these might double the household electricity use.. Maybe even triple it. But statistically, household electricity supply is trivial compared to industrial uses. Aside from which, the way electricity is priced is based on the most expensive possible source the supplier has... This might drive up the cost of electricity a little, but it'd have to get about 5-10 times more expensive to match petrol prices.
KuraIthys 9 months ago
@KuraIthys Still LPG will be better than electricity, 53 cents per litre compared to $1.53 and gets almost the same mileage per tank
REPOMAN24722 9 months ago
@REPOMAN24722 That makes a lot of assumptions about infrastructure and cost. Using current LPG prices, but then speculating electricity prices will go up isn't really very fair. (technology estimates predict running costs of electric cars will go down as infrastructure improves). Incendentally, Australia is one of the countries intending to implement battery swapping systems to get around range problems.
KuraIthys 9 months ago
@KuraIthys Electricity has gone up over double in the past year here, i has not stopped going up since i can remember, there is no need for it to cost this much, it is because of greed, people are always going to be greedy so prices will always go up, its capitalism and that's the way it is based on greed since the day it was established..
REPOMAN24722 9 months ago
@REPOMAN24722 - And you quoted fuel prices that were about 50% higher than I remember from the last time I was in Australia. On a basic level, electric motors are 3-4 more efficient than combustion engines. This should be reflected in the costs involved, but batteries have a horrible energy density compared to petrol & LPG. The Tesla S claims a range of around 480 km. But the battery to make that possible weighs more than 500kg. Even so, the real problem remains the use of non-renewable energy.
KuraIthys 9 months ago
@KuraIthys Well i drove today and I saw the prices at 1.56 per litre and I cant drive an electric car, I have tinnitus and driving a silent car would drive me crazy. Petrol has gone down since 2008, back then proces were 1.86 but they are going up again, but electric cars are not the future, you have to dispose of these bateries at some point and if everyone drives one that's allot of batteries.
REPOMAN24722 9 months ago
@REPOMAN24722 I can't really counter every problem in a youtube comment. Electric cars aren't silent, but even then that's a pretty unusual problem. Batteries contain a lot of valuable materials, and can be reconditioned, and largely recycled. I believe electric cars can be practical, but they need infrstructure which isn't there. Petrol has a huge amount of existing infrastructure, which is difficult to compete with if you need to start again from the ground up.
KuraIthys 9 months ago
@KuraIthys I think hydrogen is the future, same cost but no carbon emission, electric cars need to charge and that uses coal power plants.
REPOMAN24722 9 months ago
@REPOMAN24722 - Except that hydrogen has to be produced, transported, stored... It's currently a petroleum byproduct. The alternative is to generate hydrogen by electrolysis, which... Requires electricity. (And actually, more electricity than you get back from the hydrogen.). Add to that that fuel cells are insanely expensive, require rare materials, and suddenly hydrogen costs a small fortune, and doesn't seem so practical anymore.
KuraIthys 9 months ago
@KuraIthys Then we have no alternative that is good enough to replace petrol. Because bothe hydrogen and electric cars are worse than petrol.
REPOMAN24722 9 months ago
@REPOMAN24722 In a manner of speaking, yes. But that's a little short-sighted. 'As good as' isn't necessarily what's necessary. It's just what we're used to. Battery-Electric cars have the advantage over hydrogen simply because they are viable NOW, rather than in 20 years time... (see the previous video (Honda FCX Clarity) in this series for issues to do with hydrogen explained reasonably well.)
KuraIthys 9 months ago
@KuraIthys I would never buy a honda though, only nissan and maybe mitsubishi.
REPOMAN24722 9 months ago
@REPOMAN24722 That's not really the point. The Honda review shows most of the problems with hydrogen. It's also one of the few working prototypes of a hydrogen powered car currently in existence.
KuraIthys 9 months ago
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jukio02 1 year ago
That would be "me neither" Bobby.
TheTVLicence 1 year ago
Why do so many electric cars have to look so embarrassing?
thesightofglass 1 year ago
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jukio02 1 year ago
@jukio02 I see, I guess I've been brainwashed into thinking the Mona Lisa is a beautiful painting, or Mozart sounds amazing too.
thesightofglass 1 year ago
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jukio02 1 year ago
@jukio02 What a thoroughly miserable life you must lead.
thesightofglass 1 year ago
The claim by car manufacturers that the batteries are the cause of the high cost is simply a lie.
The price for LiFePO4 (Lithum) cells (Such as those made by "Thundersky" in China) is around $1 per AmpHour. The cell voltage of these cells is around 3.2V, so that works out to 1x3.2=3.2WattHours per dollar.
An electric car requires a battery pack of ~20'000Wh. 20'000/3.2=6250$.
Nowhere near the price claimed by Mitsubishi.
DIY electric car builders all over the world are using these batteries.
vonnikon 1 year ago
@vonnikon You're absolutely right. Price of Li-ion batteries is not so expensive.
Maybe the Mitsubishi supplier (GS-Yuasa) provides too much expensive Li-ion batteries. They should change their battery supplier.
In addition, the iMiEV has only 16kWh batteries. So, if the supplier is ThunderSky:
16000/3.2=5000 dollars of batteries (3,221.85 GBP).
The 47kW electric synchronous motor and the inverter may cost $5000.
But the price is over £30000 and it's absolutely not justified.
pxidr 1 year ago
@pxidr In this very video, Mitsubish claims that the batteries for iMiev costs two thirds of £30'000. That is £20'000, which is six times the actual cost of 16kWh Lithium batteries from Thundersky or any other large LiFePO4 Lithium cell manufacturer.
Someone is outright lying. Perhaps something for the "fully charged show" to investigate?
vonnikon 1 year ago
hahaha GREAT! get all your enrgy from the qantum field with THEORIONPROJECT ORG and that solves the charging issue...
morganic88 1 year ago
Isn't it time for the next show? I love these reviews/shows even if I don't agree with everything!
j101saar 1 year ago
Breaking news - the Vauxhall Ampera will have an 8 year/100,000 miles warranty on its battery. AKA the Chevy Volt if you are from the US. Will Nissan and Mitsubishi match this? Like I have posted elsewhere, I think the Volt/Ampera offers the best solution. If you are going on short trips, you use its battery. If you want to go on a longer drive, you have a range extender. No range anxiety!
j101saar 1 year ago
@j101saar I don't have range anxiety with my EV because I know it's range and the range fits my needs. My "range extender" is in my other car, an ICE, so I don't need to carry it around with me 99% of the time when I don't need it. Sure, the Volt is a good solution for people in a one car family who really need the range, but that doesn't make it the "best" solution for all.
JRP3 1 year ago
@JRP3 OK, so it's efficient, cost effective and desirable to have to buy two cars because neither does all you want it too? The fact is you can only use one car at a time, and if it fulfills all your needs, then the same car can be used, all of the time. This is where the idea of the Volt shines. You go ahead and run two cars to do what my one car can do; I'll spend the difference on enjoying life : )
j101saar 1 year ago
@j101saar Please read with comprehension. Two car families, which means you'll have two cars already. Besides, my two used cars cost less than a volt. For many people a 100 mile EV will do everything they need. Not everyone thinks they need to drive 100's of miles on a whim. There is also the option of renting on the few occasions where you might. If you do drive more than 100 miles on a regular basis then yes, the Volt is a good choice.
JRP3 1 year ago
@JRP3 The volt is expected to cost $30k (about £19.5k) - that's cheaper than the Leaf and the I-MIEV. The I-Miev will do as little as 45 miles, the leaf 47 miles on a charge (acc to manufacturers). The problem with 100% EV's is range 'variability'; the volt overcomes this. If you are looking to replace either one of your cars, something like the volt would be better than an equivalent 100% EV. Comprehend?
j101saar 1 year ago
@j101saar The 47 mile figure is worst case and unlikely to ever happen. Why not quote the 138 mile figure? Most people drive less than 40 mile a day. For many people with two vehicles the Leaf could easily replace one. Comprehend?
JRP3 1 year ago
@JRP3 If they drive less than 40 miles a day, they could still use the Volt. With a battery range of 40 miles, it would use no petrol. You would not need to worry about the effect of charging every day as it comes with a 100k miles/8 year warranty. However, on those days you want to go on say a higher speed A road or motorway trip, you can, without running out of juice. It's cheaper, it makes more sense. Admit it.
j101saar 1 year ago
@j101saar The Leaf actually lets you drive on electricity for 100 miles or so, without paying for petrol, which saves you money. So you can go on a longer trip than 40 miles with a Leaf using only electricity. You can't with a Volt. As I said, a Volt may make sense for some people, but so does a Leaf.
JRP3 1 year ago
@JRP3 If you take battery depreciation into account, the Leaf's lifetime cost per charge is the same as a 50-60mpg ICE (of which there are many). With the Leaf you may get 100 miles, but there's massive variability of 47 miles to 138 miles. It is easy to get caught out. Most trips are < 40 miles - and so the Volt will meet most people's needs using only electricity. The Volt is much more economical & practical.
j101saar 1 year ago
@j101saar Battery depreciation values are completely speculative, and Nissan is planning on after vehicle use for the batteries as backup power supplies, since they will still function just at a reduced capacity. It's not easy to get caught out of charge, unless you're a moron. 10,000 people run out of gas every day, so I'm sure it will happen, and someone will run out of gas in a Volt. The jury is still out on how economical and practical the Volt will be.
JRP3 1 year ago
@JRP3 Battery depreciation isn't really speculative. I've based my calculations on what the manufacturer says. Once the battery is knackered, it is doubtful that most consumers will spend somewhere between £10k and £25k on a new one to put in their, by then, tired old car. Just as they currently wouldn't spend £2-3k on a new petrol engine. Range variability will not be the problem for Volts it is for Leafs.
j101saar 1 year ago
@j101saar As I said, and you are ignoring, the "old" battery will still have value in other markets, and that value can be put against the cost of a new pack. Additionally, in 5-10 years a replacement pack will very likely be a lot better and a lot cheaper. Not to mention there is much less to wear out in an EV, no exhaust problems, no radiators and water pumps, smog pumps, brakes will have less wear, the motor should be fine, so putting money into an older vehicle could be a good option.
JRP3 1 year ago
@JRP3 Future battery technology is completely speculative. As is the alternative use of the batteries when they are removed. Therefore you are talking about an unknown. True an EV will have less to go wrong. However the Leaf has batteries which will be... expensive... when they go wrong; if not for the consumer then the manufacturer. Battery performance will decline by 20-30% over its lifetime also.
j101saar 1 year ago
@j101saar It's not much of leap to project maturing manufacturing technologies, battery optimization, and economies of scale will all lead to better and cheaper products. That's generally the way of technology and what we've been seeing in the past few years. Sure a battery failure will be expensive for Nissan, as it will be for GM. GM also has to worry about the ICE side of their product, so they have many more potential failure points than a pure EV. The Volt is more likely to have problems
JRP3 1 year ago
@JRP3 New technology doesn't develop in a linear fashion. Have you heard of diminishing returns? The Volt's ICE will be easy to fix, probably inexpensive too (the battery has that warranty also). The ICE will get used infrequently, reducing mileage and wear. Something like a Volt is a great platform, the ICE smooths out the range variability, but can be phased out gradually as batteries improve.
j101saar 1 year ago
@j101saar Yes there are diminishing returns on mature technology, which lithium batteries are not. The Volt ICE inexpensive to fix? Have you ever had to do major repairs to an ICE vehicle? Not to mention you have two separate yet integrated systems with the Volt, it's more complex than an ICE or a BEV. You think it's a good idea to carry around an ICE and subsystems that will almost never be used. I'd rather carry around more batteries.
JRP3 1 year ago
@JRP3 You're not aware of the fusion power dream then? ICE's aren't expensive to fix if we are talking about an engine with comparable performance to the Leaf. A replacement engine on a Ford Fiesta costs around £2-3k to buy and install. How much will a replacement Leaf battery cost? 10x as much. I'd rather have two integrated systems in one car, than your alternative of having two cars LOL
j101saar 1 year ago
@j101saar You're really trying too hard, and don't have the facts. 10x as much? Not even close. Leaf battery is 24KWH, my 12KWH pack cost me about $4K, last year, do the math. An ICE might cost $1K just to replace the exhaust system. Again, many people already have two cars, no reason one can't be a BEV.
JRP3 1 year ago
@JRP3 Figure it out. The Mitsubishi i costs £9.5k new, the EV costs £33,700. Difference = £24.2k. The Leaf will cost £28,350, a Micra costs £11.7k - difference = £16.65k. (Ignoring subsidies). The difference is largely down to the battery. If you think the leaf battery only costs $8k (£5.2k), you are living in cloud cuckoo land. My ICE has done 100k miles with only routine servicing - sorry yours is so expensive!
j101saar 1 year ago
@j101saar So you think the only cost difference is in the batteries, and that Nissan pays far more for batteries as a huge corporation than I do as an individual? Sure, I'm the one in "cuckoo land". How about the electric motor, controller, charger, and battery management system, that are all new products and have not had 100 years of production refinement and volume to drive costs down? As for your routine ICE servicing, add that all up and subtract it from the cost of owning a BEV.
JRP3 1 year ago
@JRP3 Now you're trying too hard. Electric motors new technology? Hmm. Controllers new technology? Hmm. Chargers? Hmm. The battery management system may cost a little - however they managed it in the 90s with the EV1 etc, so I doubt its expensive given the advances since then. I think we both want the same thing - a successful EV. We disagree on what that is, right now.
j101saar 1 year ago
@j101saar Variable speed three phase and BLDC electric motors built in quantity for EV use, yes that's new technology. Microprocessor controlled inverters, battery chargers, and management systems, yes, that's all new technology. EV1 didn't need the same type of cell management. More to the point, it's not yet produced in the volumes that would lower prices the way ICE components are. Which goes directly to my point that EV components other than the batteries are very expensive, for now.
JRP3 1 year ago
@JRP3 My response to your points in a word: unconvincing. It's just a different application of tried & tested technologies. The cost is not justified - especially when we are talking about major car companies. EVs with similar range were being knocked out in the 90's. The leaf doesn't even have an active thermal management system - it's pretty basic stuff. Watch Rob's video again - the battery is the big cost.
j101saar 1 year ago
@j101saar Sorry you're not convinced, but I've actively been involved in researching and pricing EV systems for a while. I know that BMW paid ACP $11K each for the motor/controller system used in the MiniE for example, in quantity, I know that UQM charges $25K for single units of their system, even half that would be $12.5K. Yes EV's similar to these were produced in the 90's, and the costs were extremely high for the same reasons. The components are still made in very small quantities.
JRP3 1 year ago
@JRP3 goto autoevolution dotcom slash news slash ev-depreciation-rate-21772 dothtml. The leaf battery makes up more than half the price. They agree with me that depreciation is going to be a real issue. Doesn't it make the long warranty the volt offers look encouraging LOL.
j101saar 1 year ago
@j101saar LOL, as I've previously commented, that article is so far off the mark any "conclusions" they come to must be discounted as fantasy. 10% value after 5 years? What a joke. Any 5 year old vehicle will have little wear, an EV even less. I'll buy used 5 year old Leafs for $3K all day long, it's still an 80 mile EV. Sorry, but the motor, controller, and charger alone are worth over $10K. You and the person who wrote the article obviously have not tried to buy one, I have.
JRP3 1 year ago
@JRP3 We are talking about Glass's, which has been valuing vehicles for over 75 years and you think they don't have any authority when it comes to predicting depreciation? Hmm. What something costs, and what it is worth, are two different things. Although I have to agree I'd buy one too for £2-3k, however by then the range will likely vary between 33 miles and 97 miles.
j101saar 1 year ago
@j101saar They've obviously had zero experience valuing EV's. They also seem to miss the value of not buying gasoline or oil, that's a real world cost savings. Please explain how 8 year old RAV4EV's are still selling for $30K and more? Glass's doesn't have a clue about EV's, and they've proved it.
JRP3 1 year ago
that cost seems crazy. How can nissan build a bigger nicer EV and sell it for less? I think the imieve is better looking than the LEAF.
onesojourner 1 year ago
@onesojourner Nissan makes their own batteries, joint venture with Toshiba I think.
JRP3 1 year ago
Fantastic video Robert. My favourite bit was 'are electric cars silent..?' and then the Petrol...Electric...Petrol...Electric test lol. Very funny but shows perfectly that there is 'no' difference in sound. Can't wait for the next episode. Well done.
paultrd 1 year ago
@paultrd The silent bit was a bit naughty really as the issue is not with vehicles at high speed as Robert showed but with relativity low speed vehicles. As a cyclist in a congested city I have been almost caught out by an electric van, that pulled out silently and without indicating(and without looking), now on congested bits of road I am in habit of looking out vehicles with tailpipes and am doubly cautious around them
backacheache 1 year ago
Well done! It's a funky-looking little thing, but I wouldn't mind having one. I think your e-proselytizing was pretty even-handed, not too over the top. Oh, and the clean-shaven look wins for me, too, FWIW!
By all means, keep up the good work. Something on generally-available conversions (i.e., not DIY, but reputable companies) would be nice.
wlchase 1 year ago
Didn't emphasize one important thing in your reasoning for why the iMIEV is so expensive (although you did kind of go over it). The main reason is there are only going to be a couple thousand iMIEVs made per year. Cars have to be made in the hundreds of thousands to be affordable. This is what Nissan is going to do with the Leaf. It'll $33k in the US, £28k in the UK, both prices before any government incentives. That's much better than the £38k for the iMIEV.
stopcrazypp 1 year ago
10 years ago i gave up the opportunity to buy a farm to instead buy a Honda Insight. The car has given me as high as 83 miles per gallon of gas on a 60 mile commute, but its hard to garden in. I try to balance my low income with responsibility to keep the planet alive... I know I will be traveling distances, but compared to finally owning a home again or healthcare, purchasing an electric car is a hard decision I haven't taken a final stand on. (I am tho' on two ev car reservation lists.)
c33r0k33 1 year ago
Interesting 0-60 test too. That time puts it in the same ballpark as my 120-odd horsepower Mazda MX5 - not bad at all.
antonyingram 1 year ago
Great episode Robert. I enjoyed the sound comparison at the end - and even at low speeds I suspect electric cars, though quiet, aren't totally silent either. Most small-engined modern petrol cars are almost silent in traffic so I can't see any justification for the impending regulations requiring them to make a noise.
Nice take on the screenwash cost too. Taking away the cost of fuel and of most servicing items that ICE cars require, I'm sure other car-related goodies would seem expensive!
antonyingram 1 year ago
Loving this show!
sagasky 1 year ago
Excellent!
Love the show, glad we have a new episode!
Looking forward to the next one.
stedavid13 1 year ago
They need to sell the cars without batteries and you should be able to lease the batteries from a different company. The only thing they have to solve is make the batteries standardized so that they fit different cars! If you agree vote up :)
kuzlovsky12 1 year ago
@kuzlovsky12 Standardization of battery packs does tend to reduce costs to consumers. However, leasing increases the costs. Why would you want to increase the cost of the battery?
JohnCBriggs 1 year ago
I've been using my work's MiEV for 4 weeks now. It's a brilliant little car to drive, performance is impressive, and is operating at an economy equivalent to over 300mpg. Thanks for the review Bob.
ipponken53 1 year ago
5 years ago, a realistic electric family vehicle was not even on the radar. Now it is a reality. Think about this. In 1909, the Ford Model T cost $850usd which is around $20,500 in today. Would you buy a Model T to use as your primary car today? No. The amount of car for your dollar has grown a lot. The same will be found for electric vehicles provided the integration of infrastructure. That takes time, not 100 years, but I see less than a decade if development continues on current scale.
nssnpulsars 1 year ago
I don't think Mitsubishi are very serious about electric cars the price is just silly
UK1774 1 year ago
does the kinetic movement of the car itself put any energy into the battery? Are there any cars that do this? Or is there no point?
Woodee 1 year ago
@Woodee When you are braking the energy is put back into the battery.
JohnCBriggs 1 year ago
@Woodee The problem with regeneration while moving forward is that as speed increases, resistance increases exponentially. This renders the concept useless as it soon requires much more energy to propel than it is producing and more energy than if it didn't have it in the first place.
Most of the electric cars (and hybrids) use regeneration in braking where the resistance is actually advantageous. Problem there is actually reversed, slow braking is less electric produced than at high speed.
nssnpulsars 1 year ago
@nssnpulsars ah right!
Woodee 1 year ago
robert, have you killed any pedestrians yet? Seriously though, what is the general reaction when pedestrians are on the streets and your driving at low speeds below 25mph? I've sent an email to the RNIB for their support and the opposition to the latest laws coming to pass in america, haven't heard anything yet
eldictator1 1 year ago
I love the jellybean, but as others have stated the Quoted estimated price is too high! It needs to come down a couple of grand below the leaf. I've heard the leaf' build quality is superior and it's more loaded with gadgets
eldictator1 1 year ago
The vehicle price is a problem for now. Hopefully this will progressively get lower. I think the other issue is just the volume. You can't sell a car (any car) for (say) $15,000 unless you are making them in volume (about 100,000 per year).
JohnCBriggs 1 year ago
"What if you run out on the motorway?" How it be different from running out of petrol?
IconOfSin88 1 year ago
Wow I was shocked at the retail price! I love the idea and a car like that would be a great replacement for my own run around. But that initial price is just the only stopping point! Just get some decent designers on it!
Also the noise of the car comes from the tyre rubbing on the road. I imagine at slower speeds it would be quieter in comparison but people walk out on petrol cars because they are not paying attention anyway. An electric car wont make any difference.
schme1440 1 year ago
If they would design the car with a exchangeable battery - like in the betterplace concept - they would get rid of the huge battery costs.
ultimazer1 1 year ago
@ultimazer1 Making them exchangeable increases cost rather than decreases them. Added cost for connectors, double enclosures. In what way does interchangebility decrease cost?
JohnCBriggs 1 year ago
@JohnCBriggs: No, exchangeable batteries don't make the car any more expensive. Sure, you have to add the equipment you mentioned, but in the betterplace approach you no longer own the battery. The battery is owned by betterplace and you basically pay per mile - much like paying your cell phone bill. This way the cars costs as much as a petrol car and the cost per kilometer is still lower than with a petrol car.
ultimazer1 1 year ago
@ultimazer1 Under what LOGIC does having BetterPlace involved decrease COST. BetterPlace INCREASES costs. You must pay the salary of the BetterPlace employees, the cost of battery switch stations, the cost of battery charging stations. All increases in cost. You are confusing cost and how cost is financed. If you want to spread the cost out over time, get a loan or get a lease. BetterPlace and swappable batteries only increase cost.
JohnCBriggs 1 year ago
@JohnCBriggs: Well, betterplace is a company, so yes they want to earn money. But you as the customer don't have to pay the big price anymore. Nothing unlogical about that. Betterplace basically leases the battery to you plus you solve the range issue.
ultimazer1 1 year ago
@JohnCBriggs: according to your logic any business model that leases sth. to you increases cost...so, no energy distributors, no car leasing or the like. the betterplace business model is used in many other places.
ultimazer1 1 year ago
@ultimazer1 Ask yourself this question, what is the most expensive part of an EV? It is the battery, right. So in order to make battery swapping work, BetterPlace must store a significant number of additional batteries at the battery swapping station. These are an added expense that Nissan LEAF owners will not have. Also, for BetterPlace, you must have one of their charging stations at home, also an additional expense that you must pay for.
JohnCBriggs 1 year ago
@JohnCBriggs: well, betterplace has to pay for battery and that's it. We need spare batteries for this system - but the business model generates that money and it's still cheaper for the car owners than owning the battery plus you don't need to worry about range anymore. Sry, I don't get your point :D
i'm not sure about the special charger you need at home...you should be able to plug it into any usual outlet.
ultimazer1 1 year ago
@ultimazer1 Let's try an example. Say the battery is $8000 for a LEAF. That is the only cost on that vehicle. That is all that needs to be paid for. Now for BetterPlace, the battery is $8000 and a replacement battery is $8000. This is $16,000 that needs to be paid for. The BetterPlace customer must pay for the $16,000 so that it is more expensive than the LEAF. But yes, it solves the "Range Anxiety" issue assuming they can get this financially unsound business running.
JohnCBriggs 1 year ago
@ultimazer1 For the BetterPlace model to work, you can ONLY plug in to a BetterPlace charger. So you cannot connect at your Grandmother's house or any other place. This is how they charge you per mile. You must use their charger.
JohnCBriggs 1 year ago
@ultimazer1 To answer the question about BetterPlace consider this. Which is cheaper, buying a car or leasing it? and why?
JohnCBriggs 1 year ago
@JohnCBriggs: even if you need a special charging station at home...paying 200 EUR for that and then "x cent/mile" is still WAY cheaper than owning the battery.
ultimazer1 1 year ago
@ultimazer1 Firstly, chargers are more typically $2000. Secondly, you are missing the point. Chargers, spare batteries, battery swapping stations all add cost. You seem to think BetterPlace is paying these costs. But YOU are paying for these costs. The only place BetterPlace gets money is from YOU. So if they have higher costs (and they do) then you have to pay them.
JohnCBriggs 1 year ago
@JohnCBriggs: I understand what you mean, but I still believe the costs is lower with en exchangeable battery. This why: If the battery makes up 2/3 of the car's price it's more likely worth around 20.000 EUR. Owning the battery+car is only cheaper when you keep the car for 20 years or so which is not likely. Paying x cents per mile over 10 years plus "interest" for the overhead is still cheaper than buying a battery with a new car every 10 years.
ultimazer1 1 year ago
@ultimazer1 Let's say Person A and Person B are each given bank accounts with $50,000. Person A purchases and Toyota Camry and Person B leases the same. After 3 years, Person A sells the car and deposits the money into the bank account and Person B returns the car to the leaser. Who has more money in the bank account at the end of the experiment? Person A, Why because the leasing company is making a profit.
JohnCBriggs 1 year ago
@JohnCBriggs: Owning car AND battery: around 30.000 EUR (Leaf or iMiev) + electricity costs to charge it. Betterplace: 10.000-15.000 for the car + 3 cents/mile or so. What option is cheaper for an individual customer totally depends on how much you use your car and over what time span. If you use it a lot, at some point owning it becomes cheaper. STILL, a fixed battery will never ever give you unlimited range unless fast charging in 5 Minutes becomes possible which it isn't atm.
ultimazer1 1 year ago
@ultimazer1 Do you have any evidence to suggest BetterPlace is charging 3 cents/mile? I suspect 30 cents/mile is more likely. At $15,000 per battery and a battery life of 100,000 miles, the battery cost alone is 15 cent/mile. Add to that the electricity cost 2 cent/mile. Now you are at 17 cent/mile and you have not yet included the cost of the charging stations and battery swapping stations. I would suggest to you 30 cents/mile is what will be charged by BetterPlace.
JohnCBriggs 1 year ago
@JohnCBriggs: I looked it up again. A quote from a website: "A gasoline-powered car costs about 12 cents a mile to drive when gas costs $3 a gallon. Electricity costs approximately 3 cents a mile. That means Better Place has a margin of 3 cents per mile before people start complaining about the cost of powering up electric vehicles."
If their prices are higher than 12 cents they wouldn't be competitive plus they need a margin...so no, the cost will be under 12 cents/mile.
ultimazer1 1 year ago
@ultimazer1 Nice, I think we are making progress here. OK, so 12 cents/mile the battery lasts 100,000 miles therefore if someone uses the whole battery $0.12/mile times 100,000 miles or $12,000 of income for BetterPlace. Unfortunately they paid $15,000 for the battery so they just lost $3,000. Hopefully you can see where this is going. They have to charge something like 30 cent/mile to make their business work.
JohnCBriggs 1 year ago
@JohnCBriggs: Well betterplace said their price would be under that of petrol/mile...so the price has to be under 12 cents/mile. They actually recycle the batteries and use them for much more miles which would make things cheaper for them and fill the price gap. I don't know how it works in every last detail but it must be working in a profitable way - otherwise they wouldn't do it, ey? :)
ultimazer1 1 year ago
@ultimazer1 Well at least I understand your logic now. You think the BetterPlace scheme will be cheaper because BetterPlace said it would be cheaper. But we should keep in mind that BetterPlace is not currently in the business of leasing batteries for x cent/mile. They are currently in the business of attracting government and investor money and building prototype battery swapping stations for 90 day trials in Japan using mules.
JohnCBriggs 1 year ago
@JohnCBriggs: haha, no, as I said: paying x cents/mile is cheaper unless you drive 200k every day or you buy a new car only every 20 years which is unlikely especially with such new tech which will be further improved. Their projects in Denmark, Isreal and Australia will show what it's really like. Until then everything is just speculation.
ultimazer1 1 year ago
@ultimazer1 Right, when they announce what x cent/mile really is, then we will know. But brace yourself a high price that can actually cover the cost of the battery and all the infrastructure.
JohnCBriggs 1 year ago
@ultimazer1 This morning I spent some time on the BetterPlace website and noticeably absent is any claim about their scheme being cheaper than gasoline (petrol). They emphasize their technology and not the economic benefits. Perhaps they have figured out that they system will actually be more expensive.
JohnCBriggs 1 year ago
@JohnCBriggs: in the videos (they have their own youtube channel and there are many interviews aside from that) they often talk about pricing. Have a look there.
ultimazer1 1 year ago
@ultimazer1 Oh I have watch all their videos and subscribe to their youtube channel. I know they have claimed to be competitive with gasoline (petrol). However, I was just wondering when was the last time they have made that claim.
JohnCBriggs 1 year ago
@JohnCBriggs: I don't have much time right now but I found this: watch?v=gNIijgJcsbs
about about 10mins into the video he says it's 7 cents per mile and at the end he also talks about fast charging which is not feasible due to he laws of physics so for the range's sake swapping batteries is inevitable. They recycle the batteries 3 times I read somewhere. They have to reduce the size/range in the process but use is extended ...but only reality will show whether all this is a sound concept ;)
ultimazer1 1 year ago
Comment removed
ultimazer1 1 year ago
@ultimazer1: not fast charging in general that is but fast charging within the time it needs to fill up a petrol tank which is about 5 mins. Batterie swapping allows for this, fast charging will never be possible in that time frame without frying the grid
ultimazer1 1 year ago
@ultimazer1 In more recent news.. Japanese company JFE engineering can half charge a i-miev battery in 3minutes, 0-70% in 5 minutes. Mitsubishi's own level3 charger takes as seen in the video 15-30 mins..The better place model is better for fleets such as taxi's, rental and company cars/delivery etc...just search for "better place tokyo taxi" and you'll see a 1 minute battery swap in tokyo's branch
eldictator1 1 year ago
@eldictator1: I know about the taxi trial. Sure, fast charging to even 100% is possible within 5mins...but it takes so much power that this would simply fry the grid. For just one car it's like switching 750 fully lit apartments an and off in 5 minute intervals. Interpolate this for thousands of cars and charging spots...not feasible atm. Battery swapping is atm the only way for unlimited range plus its cheaper unless you drive A LOT or you only buy a car every 20 years...
ultimazer1 1 year ago
@ultimazer1 Battery swapping will not happen. No one will adopt a standard, swapping means every car needs extra batteries available, the most expensive part, so that makes EV's more expensive, not less, as does designing a swappable pack. Storing and transporting the batteries all over the place, plus building the swap stations also makes EV's cost more. No major manufacturer is using Project Better Place's system. Improved range and technology will mean even less need for swapping. Fail.
JRP3 1 year ago
@ultimazer1 Actually fast charge stations can store charge overnight when grid use is low, and they can use cheaper battery chemistries to do so. Then they can use some of that during the day if grid demand is too high. Plus, people might just have to wait a few more minutes sometimes, just as when there is a long line at the gas station. Most people will charge at home, overnight, when it's cheaper. Why pay extra and spend time at a charge station if you don't have to?
JRP3 1 year ago
@eldictator1 You know why taxis and such probably won't use swapping either? Because they are all based on production vehicles, and no fleet producers are going to add the extra expense of building a swappable pack just for a few taxi fleets. Besides, the average taxi drives less than 150 miles a day, which a Nissan Leaf can handle with a single moderately fast charge during a lunch break.
JRP3 1 year ago
@JRP3 type "Tokyo Electric Taxi Project overview " into the youtube search...tbh I'm not a great proponent for the better place model, but having actually watched an actual vid I'm more acceptable
eldictator1 1 year ago
@eldictator1 Oh I've seen it, but I still don't think it's going to catch on for the same reasons I've previously mentioned. It adds cost, and it's not necessary. For 150 mile range which makes more sense, having two 75 mile swappable packs, plus the swap machine, or do a 15-30 minute charge? Or just building a 150 mile pack would be cheaper than two swappable packs and the machine.
JRP3 1 year ago
@JRP3 Yeah, I'm not disagreeing. Like I say I think a fleet of delivery vehicles/pubic transport etc would benefit more from this model.They have the infrastucture i.e large warehouses and yards to accomodate
I think that batteries in the next ten years will have increased in range so much and charging will be sub 10 minutes for most street outlets, that it will be obsolete before it catches on with the public
eldictator1 1 year ago
Your videos are the most inspiring and interesting I've come across on YouTube in a long, long while. Keep making these videos! :)
svedman 1 year ago
Every automotive engineer knows that no matter how much time and efforrt they put into combustion engine design, it is never going to be more that 30-35% efficient in term of the energy input via fuel. But these days efficiency is the biggest automotive engineering challenge. It's management of these companies that are holding the technology back by strangling the purse strings, as these electric cars don't produce enough profit over there lifetimes.
topski100 1 year ago
Awesome shot... thanks for sharing your thoughts.
OneOfaKind949 1 year ago
It's amusing how Topgear and the main stream really don't cover alternative-powered vehicles. But the likes of this iMiev are still uneconomically sound. I think it's a slightly unfair analogy made of engineers. In fact, I believe that the majority of automotive engineers are more interested in new technologies, and really making it work from a economical standpoint, because the current CI systems have been done to death.
topski100 1 year ago
I think you're upstaging Carpool with this show.
drtyrell969 1 year ago
Just a quick Q, When you charge at the motoway stop's and car park will it cost you a premium rate? If so how bad will it be?
good show by the way. and brill news about Carpool being on proper Telly!
Mopperty 1 year ago
Great review. Will you be able to get your hands on a Nissan Leaf anytime soon?
idontcare80 1 year ago
just wondering that if the quick charger will effect the battery life?
scientifically not from manufacturer's brochure
krirks 1 year ago
Just love the sound of Electric Cars. Why the hell do people say they silent, they not at all. If you reach 88mph do go back to the future :)
Picto82 1 year ago
It seems perfect apart from the range. But I have faith that the battery technology will improve.
alexvegas 1 year ago
Great episode Robert!
It sums up the state of the current EV vehicles and all the pros and cons in 10 minutes!!! Well done old son!
"Brevity is the soul of wit"
harveybirdman74 1 year ago
Nicely done. I dont know why but I always smile every time I hear the whine of that electric motor :) See! I agree that the chargers and the cars being expensive BUT the cost compared to just a few years ago has been dramatically reduced and it will follow the same law as consumer electronics. Theres no doubt that electric cars are here and here to stay if you take into consideration how much money and effort corporations, gov't and VC's are putting into making them work.
TheElectrocar 1 year ago
Car is to small for the American market.
AeroCleanse 1 year ago
Very slick show, liked the top gear-ish intro too. wish i could afford an electric car which i guess is what most people feel these days. We are fed up with all the pollution & unnecessary ever spiraling cost of our cars with car tax, petrol and repairs. So if the imiev breaks down do Mistsubishi do the repairs them selfs ?
leezaal 1 year ago
3 out of 3 great shows. Great show!
craigslist04 1 year ago
It'll be interesting to see how much they depreciate, especially the batteries. They must be worth a fair amount to someone who can recycle them. Plus the motor will probably outlast the car and never lose efficiency unlike an ICE.
ninjabob2456 1 year ago
@ninjabob2456 Never lose efficiency? Not quite true... All lithium cell specs quote numbers like 85% of original capacity after x1000 cycles... EVerything wears out my friend...
lockhughes 1 year ago
@lockhughes This is true of standard Li-Ion Cells with deep cycling. Cells for these cars are different and may have as many as 10,000 cycles before dropping to 80% of original capacity. The battery must be good for 150,000 miles and 10 years to meet California standards.
JohnCBriggs 1 year ago
@JohnCBriggs Toshiba have just as we speak announced theri mitsu partnership .Toshiba has developed a new original anode material and a new electrolyte that enhances both safety and rapid recharging. the SCiB battery offers an exceptionally long life of up to 20 years, is capable of accepting 6,000-plus charges and is rapid recharge ready and can increase the range..thisis what happens when money and R&D are put into car batteries
eldictator1 1 year ago
@eldictator1 I am optimistic about the performance of batteries going forward. However, I would suggest that the 20 year life has not been tested yet and difficult to prove. Time will tell.
JohnCBriggs 1 year ago
@JohnCBriggs If they think it'll do 20 they'll probably back that up with a warranty so it should be no concern to the customer that it isn't proven.
ninjabob2456 1 year ago
@ninjabob2456 Yep, good point. Like the 25 year warranty on my solar panels. On the other hand, if the company goes out of business...
JohnCBriggs 1 year ago
@lockhughes I was talking about the actual motor, which lasts incredibly long with comparatively little wear due to having only one moving part. In this way it ought to retain value unlike ICEs which lose most of their value after just a few miles.
ninjabob2456 1 year ago
@ninjabob2456 Tks NinjaB... Ya, I'be been riding a BLDC most of ten years now. The maintenance schedule goes something like "...every 30,000hrs replace the two bearings..."
:-)
lockhughes 1 year ago
interesting stuff, 75miles to charge is more like it, if they could just get it over 120miles then were talking. 9secs to 60 is not bad either.
ruuman 1 year ago
I run a petrol Smart..... I would kill for one of these (well not actually kill of course), but it has to be cheaper before I could consider it.. :-( We have to fix the economics somehow.
I have another car for long journeys and big loads, the Smart rarely does more than 30 miles round trip. Which is in line with so many other people. Perfect territory for an electric vehicle.... :sigh:
Well maybe I will get an electric vehicle somet