All this you say about gun crime in the US... and yet you do nothing to contain the laws and prevent some idiots from getting hold of them... Love the west wing, love Toby and the gun culture in the US and its problems were highlighted brilliantly in this episode.
Toby is naive in his thinking that Americans are not more blood thirsty then others. Hell yes we are. We have an insatiable appetite for conflict. The fact that people aren't voting for Ron Paul proves this. Its either Ron Paul and Peace or Anyone else and War. This country and its government love conflict.... why should its citizens be any more moral? Damn right we are more homicidal by nature.
@Coldo3895 One of the big reasons is our entertainment standards. The rest of the world are more strict about how violence is portrayed in movies and less bothered by sex. America is the opposite.
@OttoKrinklebottom traditionally, once you've had to envoke Hitler to impress upon people the weight of your argument, you've essentially conceded victory
@OttoKrinklebottom so bad people agreed with a prohibition on weapons. That says absolutely nothing useful about the current argument. No one's looking to outlaw private ownership of weapons, but i'm confused as to why grenade launchers and armor piercing sniper rifles need to be on the street for open sale. I'm also confused as to why a waiting period is the end of the world. no one wants to take your shotgun away from you.... just your uzi.
I've always wondered how different states could have different gun laws. The right to bear arms is clearly in the 2nd amendment. Can states have different laws regarding religion? I'm for gun control, but the only thing that could help would be a constitutional amendment. As the law stands, any American has the right to bear arms anywhere.
@Zajuts149 Actually. You can't own a gun if you are a convicted felon. You also can't own a gun if you can't pass a backround check. Or if you have a mental illness. Gun control is too unrealistic in this country. If you tried to make guns illegal it would lead to a bloodbath. Too many people are unwilling to give them up without a fight. Its embedded in our culture.
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the RIGHT OF THE PEOPLE to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed. - Enough said !
In Britain they banned guns in the 90's. As a result gun crime has not gone down but up. In fact it has gone up year on year ever since. To be clear the prime reason gun ownership was written into the Bill of rights not so we could go hunting, or even for self protection against criminals, rather, it was put there so people like you and me could defend our selfs from those self riteous politicians that would seek to erode our freedoms. Thats why Hitler enacted the confiscation of all guns.
@OttoKrinklebottom "Thats why Hitler enacted the confiscation of all guns." Thats bogus. Nazi germany had freer gun law than any european country today. Funny how many americans just make up stuff about Hitler to support their argument. Here in germany you could go to jail for that.
@Miryla i don't really know how i feel about the right to one's death (suicide). have any opinion on that, and how it affects how we count homocides?
I'm not saying there isn't a problem with the U.S. but those stats can be read many ways. Denmark has much more relaxed firearm laws than Australia but half the homocides. Switzerland has many select fire firearms in homes and I would venture to say in many more homes than the US. Despite peoples beliefs it isn't that common.
Remember the aim is to save lives so not only compare firearm homocide rates but overall homocide rates of nations. Have firearms controls led to less people being killed?
To me the right to end ones own life doesn't really have much to do with the firearms control debate. I suspect though haven't checked the stats that lack of access to firearms won't effect suicide rates. Someone truely intent on ending their life will find a way to do so. As to their right to do so, I personally have no problem with it.
Toby mentions Australia. Until the Port Arthur massacre, our gun laws were neither uniform nor particularly restrictive, and our gun crime rate was low. When the tough new laws came in, in 1996, gun crimes declined by 10% over two years, and total deaths by 47%, the main fall being due to fewer gun suicides.
@puffin51 What? It's good enough for you now that instead of blowing their brains out they're slitting their wrists? Please try to use some reason here.
Banning firearms because people misuse them is like pissing in the wind, all that happens is people find other means. The only way to improve society is through social, not regulatory, means.
If it's good enough for you that instead of someone shooting themselves in the head, they choose to kill themselves through other means then I don't want to live in your ideal country.
Now I asked you to use some reason, but it seems you're incapable. Your a mindless drone who doesn't know how to think rationally and answer a simple fucking question.
Riddle me this, how is a dead woman in an alley morally superior to a live woman who shoots a rapist?
@ihaterobbie123 You're well named. Choose the handle yourself, did you?
There was also a decline in the overall suicide rate of about 15% over the ten years following the gun bans, most steeply in the years immediately after. This, of course, cannot be credited to the bans, but other research suggests that suicide attempts are less likely to succeed when there's no gun available.
Your rape fantasy is just that. Most gun deaths from crime are of the victims, not the attacker.
@puffin51 "Most gun deaths from crime are of the victims, not the attacker."
Go figure. It's almost as if the victim isn't always armed when they're attacked. Your point is moot. In reality there have been countless occassions where a gun has stopped massacres and assaults. If you're not yet aware of that, please kindly crawl out from under your rock and use google.
In the US it's estimated guns are 4 times more likely to be used to prevent a crime, rather than commit one.
@ihaterobbie12 That "estimate" is straight out of the ass. The April 1994 Justice Department study Guns and Crime revealed that about one percent (62,200) of all victims of violence claimed to have used a firearm to defend themselves. Another 20,300 reported using a firearm to defend their property. In comparison, offenders armed with handguns alone committed 931,000 violent crimes in 1992. That is, guns are about 19 times more likely to be the instruments of crime than preventers of it.
@puffin51 And I wonder, out of that 931,000, how many were committed with a gun obtained illegally. In 2005 the number was 477,040 with ANY firearm, not just handguns. What's so different about gun policy in the US today which has seen the figure cut by less than half?
Well, firearm bans on many major cities have been lifted. Concealed carry has been indroduced. The "make my day" laws have been put into effect in their various incarnations.
Why is it that crime hotspots have strict gun laws?
@ihaterobbie123 Interesting. You're right that crimes with guns have reduced overall since the 90's in the US. The gun homicide rate has slightly increased since 2002, though. The sources I read put the decrease down to strong efforts to reduce the number of illegal firearms. But, sure, go with your intuition that it's all because of concealed carry. Hope you never have to find out in person if it works. Farewell.
@puffin51 There have always been strong efforts to reduce the number of illegal firearms. My country, the UK, banned handguns all together and yet they show up in their tens of thousands in police inventories every year. Banning something doesn't make it go away, government is not a genie that can grant wishes. To stop guns coming into any country is impossible.
I've been mugged before, I'd rather I didn't have to take a knife in my arm again to protect my family.
A mugger wants cash and stabs me in the arm with a machete (what actually happened).
A mugger wants cash and either surrenders when I draw my weapon, or bleeds his worthless ass out.
There's evidence that this happens every day in America. Your fantasy of regular drunken shootouts is just that, a fantasy. Want to know why? Drinking in public while carrying a firearm is illegal in the US.
"I am the inferior of any man whose rights I trample underfoot"
Yes but if a robber wants cash, hears you coming downstairs in your house and is afraid you may have a gun he draws his gun and shoots. If you arm the average citizen the risks of crime increase and therefore criminals decide to protect themselves from that risk by arming themselves. It's simply true that America doesn't have a dramatically different crime rate (and in some areas has a higher crime rate than Europe) so guns don't work as a detterent in that context.
@Fragileone1 If you think a burglar will rob someone who he most likely thinks is armed, you're insane.
No way in hell will he risk his life for a television. Most career criminals are still alive through prudence, if they even smell a gun they're out of there.
What actually happens when the risks of crime increase is crime decreases. There are videos where criminals in prison are asked if a house with a gun is a good target and they said no.
It's not robbing someone who they think is armed, it is the concern that they do not know and are are more likely to fire first and ask questions later. Were it true that when risk increased crime decreased then states that permitted the gun ownership would have a lower crime rate because of the presumed risk of harm from criminality. The simple fact is that that isn't the case. If it doesn't achieve that aim and more people are killed per year then why allow guns?
@Fragileone1 "Were it true that when risk increased crime decreased then states that permitted the gun ownership would have a lower crime rate because of the presumed risk of harm from criminality. The simple fact is that that isn't the case."
Within the US, it is the case. NY and Chicago: strict laws, high crime.
"If it doesn't achieve that aim and more people are killed per year then why allow guns?"
@ihaterobbie123 Videos with criminals making statements are anecdotal evidence at best. Statistical evidence, on the other hand, suggest the opposite.
The cases of NY and Chicago include huge amounts of confounding factors, like population density and urban environment, not to mention that the ease of which guns can be obtained illegally when gun laws vary to the extend they do.
And the freedom to own a device created solely to kill other human beings is not a freedom one should treasure.
@Sammathnar When the handgun ban on DC was lifted, gun murders dropped in a manner unrivaled by anywhere else in the country. The population density, GDP, everything was fairly constant but the second handguns were allowed again murders, hot burglaries, armed robbery all dropped to levels only seen during the 60s.
The freedom to own a device used solely to protect ones own life is not a freedom others should deface with their lies. I'm not only in disagreement with you sir, you disgust me.
@ihaterobbie123 clearly you missed the entire point of this video and misread the second amendment. you have the freedom to own a gun when forming a well-regulated militia. get it?
@MsDDiddy You know "well regulated" in 18th century English means maintained right? It doesn't mean what "regulated" means today.
And no, you're wrong anyway, read the words: A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.
"the right of the People" NOT the right of the militia.
I don't mind correcting people, but if you don't know something don't act so condescending. Get it?
@IronChefWannabe "gun murders dropped in a manner unrivaled by anywhere else in the country"
Key word "unrivaled".
I know crime was decreasing, if you had any fucking reading comprehension you would be able to interperate what I said correctly, alas simple English is beyond you.
Please explain to me why stating true facts qualifies me to be a "stupid, ignorant, cock sucking piece of shit". Please also explain how gun owners are doing harm when you're unable to discuss the issue with civility.
The Death Rate IN HOMICIDES per 100 000 population (in 2005) according to the UN Office on Drugs and Crime:
GB - 0.07; France - 0.44; Germany - 0.22; Japan - 0.02; Switzerland - 0.58; Denmark - 0.23; Australia - 0.44
US - 7.35
However you phrase it, Toby's point was correct. The US has a greater deaths (homicides) rate than all of these countries and, yes, they have tougher gun control laws.
@PT109Boat No, Toby is not right. Because those numbers he used also factored in suicides by firearm. If someone is going to kill themselves, a gun may just be the most convenient. Are you going to ban ropes sharp things next? So we can't hang or cut ourselves?
@WakingMajority You didn't see the word HOMICIDES?? It was in capital letters. I did that precisely to avoid your misinterpretation. I even gave the source that includes the numbers of all suicides to give a total of gun related deaths.
And in my comment, I was not supporting Toby's numbers (as I don't have his source), but his point. His point is backed by facts and data from many, many, many sources.
However you phrase it, Toby's point is still correct.
@PT109Boat If you do any research at all. You'd clearly see that he did factor in suicides and counted them as homicides. And a homicide just means that a person was killed by another person. How many of these "victims" were burglars? Rapists?
How many of them were killed committing a crime? Toby doesn't factor any of that into his rigged liberal statistics. How about we ban rocks and sticks next? Get real.
I bet you stabbings are higher in all those countries you named. Lets ban knives next.
@WakingMajority Once again, Toby's POINT was that the countries listed, who have very strict gun control laws, have a fraction of the gun deaths COMBINED that the US. HOWEVER YOU PHRASE IT (homicides, shootings in self defence and even suicides), all counts of gun deaths in those countries are fractions of those in the US.
The numbers I gave are homicides (as per the report "a violent CRIME") confirm that. If you think the UN is "liberal" try the data by the CIA, or the police.
@PT109Boat You need the police or CIA to tell you that guns can kill people? Please.
Toby conveniently left Switzerland out of his equation. Even though Switzerland is the most armed country in the area and has exceptionally low gun crime rates and crime in general. Guns don't pull their own triggers. Blaming the tool instead of the psycho wielding it is something i'll never understand from you pro-gun control people. So if I killed 100 people with a bow and arrow, you going to want them banned?
@WakingMajority I was not aware that you are a Ron Paul supported. I don't agree with 50% of what Ron Paul says, but I completely agree on his stances on war, the war on drugs and, most importantly (and you can correct me on this) he wants Corporate money out of the electoral process (I think I heard him say that once. Am I correct?) .
Although I don't agree with several of his social policies, I would DEFINETIVELY support a candidate who wants to keep Corporate money out of elections.
@PT109Boat I have heard Ron Paul say on several occasions that he wants to get money out of politics in general. So I am sure this covers corporate money. He has also never collected on his congressional pension. He is one of the only principled people in politics.
My last point for no gun control is also for the simple fact that one day we my have to overthrow our government and pick a better one from random names from a phonebook. This will be hard to do if only cops and feds have guns.
He quoted the 2A incorrectly and also I can point to countries with even stricter gun control laws then the countries he named that have a smaller population but even HIGHER gun deaths per capita and as a whole.
A man stabbed, strangled, burned or clubbed to death is no less dead.
Also, these figures always include suicides. Is a man who overdoses on painkillers, jumps off a bridge, cuts his wrists or hangs himself any less dead?
What use is the term 'gun deaths' without decoupling it from suicides and comparing it to violent crime as a whole?
I loved The West Wing, but there is no doubt the show had a slant as well as a team of writers to sell it.
@Houtaku What is the success rate of attempted suicides using a gun compared to attempted suicides using painkillers, jumping off a bridge, cutting the wrists, and hanging? Let me answer that for you, a whole lot less for the latter group.
As a matter of fact. in Hinckley's case; Secret Service agent Tim McCarthy is still alive and serving as the Police Chief in Orland Park Illinois. DC Police Officer Thomas Delahanty is still alive though no longer works as a police officer, and James Brady has (30 years later) maganed to learn how to walk again and recovered almost all speech ability and cognitive function.
Another personal interjection here; He was successful in ending the lives of 6 people (one of which by HER AGE ALONE was not permitted to carry a gun anywhere at anytime) but he failed to extinguish the life of his target victim.
Just like Arthur Bremer, who attempted to assassinate Governor George Wallace, and John Hinckley Jr., who attempted to assassinate President Ronald Reagan. As a matter of fact Bremer didn't kill ANYONE that day and neither did Hinckley.
Those laws made it legal for the gunman to buy military-style ammunition magazines holding 30 rounds; to buy the gun capable of firing those bullets; and to carry that loaded gun without a permit. Not until the gunman fired at Gabrielle Giffords did he break any law.
Personal addition here; Though 16 seconds after the first shot was fired, all the damage that needed to be done, was completed. 16 SECONDS. 30 SHOTS. 6 DEAD.
...about his mental health that required court-ordered outpatient treatment at a mental health facility.
From a story that appeared in the Washington Post newspaper on January 14th 2011, Paul Helmke; President of the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence states (regarding the attack in Tuscon); This shooting also highlighted, again, our weak gun laws.
I did some research on the subject over the last few days and found out a few interesting things.
1) Seung-Hui Cho passed both background checks AND complete handgun purchases after presenting all required ID. He also waited the minimum required 30 day period between each gun purchase. (verbatim from wikipedia entry); He was successful at completing both handgun purchases, even though he had failed to disclose information on the background questionnaire...
@ElwoodDowdJr It's a TV show that brings up extremely current and important issues. You're fooling yourself if you think these issues they cover don't connect with everyday Americans.
False. According the Australian government, in 2001 there were 333 firearm related deaths in Australia alone, which is the year this episode (Barlet's Third State of the Union) aired. If this was written in the previous year, 2000, then Australia's gun deaths would be 331.
Sources: (Remove spaces)
nisu . flinders . edu . au / briefs / firearm_deaths_2005 . pdf
westwing . bewarne . com / second / 35guncontrol . html
en . wikipedia . org / wiki/ Bartlet's_Third_State_of_the_Union
All this you say about gun crime in the US... and yet you do nothing to contain the laws and prevent some idiots from getting hold of them... Love the west wing, love Toby and the gun culture in the US and its problems were highlighted brilliantly in this episode.
SuperOwen1982 1 week ago
Toby is naive in his thinking that Americans are not more blood thirsty then others. Hell yes we are. We have an insatiable appetite for conflict. The fact that people aren't voting for Ron Paul proves this. Its either Ron Paul and Peace or Anyone else and War. This country and its government love conflict.... why should its citizens be any more moral? Damn right we are more homicidal by nature.
WakingMajority 1 week ago
if you love Europe so much why don't you move there. then everyone is happy
sage777jake 1 week ago
Don't fuck with Toby.
SuperJackmehoffer 3 weeks ago
Actually, I DO think that americans are more homicidal by nature.
Coldo3895 2 months ago 3
@Coldo3895 One of the big reasons is our entertainment standards. The rest of the world are more strict about how violence is portrayed in movies and less bothered by sex. America is the opposite.
Gunman610 1 month ago
@Coldo3895 If we are, it is clearly because of our European roots.
SuperJackmehoffer 3 weeks ago
"The most foolish mistake we could possibly make would be to allow the subject races to possess arms." Hitler speech April 11 1942.
Regulations Against Jews' Possession of Weapons
German Citizenship Law of 14 November 1935, Reichsgesetzblatt I, p. 1333) are prohibited from acquiring, possessing, firearms .."
Starlinist Soviet Union* 1929-1953 prohibition of firearms .Art. 9, Security Law, Oct. 22
Guatemala Decree 36, Nov 25
Uganda 1970 Firearms Ordinance
Cambodia 1956 Arts. 322-8, Penal Code
OttoKrinklebottom 2 months ago
@OttoKrinklebottom traditionally, once you've had to envoke Hitler to impress upon people the weight of your argument, you've essentially conceded victory
RandallSavage 2 months ago
@OttoKrinklebottom so bad people agreed with a prohibition on weapons. That says absolutely nothing useful about the current argument. No one's looking to outlaw private ownership of weapons, but i'm confused as to why grenade launchers and armor piercing sniper rifles need to be on the street for open sale. I'm also confused as to why a waiting period is the end of the world. no one wants to take your shotgun away from you.... just your uzi.
krossk424 1 month ago
I've always wondered how different states could have different gun laws. The right to bear arms is clearly in the 2nd amendment. Can states have different laws regarding religion? I'm for gun control, but the only thing that could help would be a constitutional amendment. As the law stands, any American has the right to bear arms anywhere.
Zajuts149 2 months ago
@Zajuts149 Actually. You can't own a gun if you are a convicted felon. You also can't own a gun if you can't pass a backround check. Or if you have a mental illness. Gun control is too unrealistic in this country. If you tried to make guns illegal it would lead to a bloodbath. Too many people are unwilling to give them up without a fight. Its embedded in our culture.
WakingMajority 1 week ago
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the RIGHT OF THE PEOPLE to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed. - Enough said !
OttoKrinklebottom 2 months ago
In Britain they banned guns in the 90's. As a result gun crime has not gone down but up. In fact it has gone up year on year ever since. To be clear the prime reason gun ownership was written into the Bill of rights not so we could go hunting, or even for self protection against criminals, rather, it was put there so people like you and me could defend our selfs from those self riteous politicians that would seek to erode our freedoms. Thats why Hitler enacted the confiscation of all guns.
OttoKrinklebottom 2 months ago
@OttoKrinklebottom "Thats why Hitler enacted the confiscation of all guns." Thats bogus. Nazi germany had freer gun law than any european country today. Funny how many americans just make up stuff about Hitler to support their argument. Here in germany you could go to jail for that.
BasicSpace42 2 months ago
@BasicSpace42 well in u.s.even the media can pretty much tell what ever bullshit they want and label it "news" without any consequences
Darusdei 2 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@Miryla i don't really know how i feel about the right to one's death (suicide). have any opinion on that, and how it affects how we count homocides?
NiNJack 2 months ago
I'm not saying there isn't a problem with the U.S. but those stats can be read many ways. Denmark has much more relaxed firearm laws than Australia but half the homocides. Switzerland has many select fire firearms in homes and I would venture to say in many more homes than the US. Despite peoples beliefs it isn't that common.
Remember the aim is to save lives so not only compare firearm homocide rates but overall homocide rates of nations. Have firearms controls led to less people being killed?
Miryla 3 months ago
@Miryla i don't really know how i feel about the right to one's death (suicide). have any opinion on that?
NiNJack 2 months ago
@NiNJack
To me the right to end ones own life doesn't really have much to do with the firearms control debate. I suspect though haven't checked the stats that lack of access to firearms won't effect suicide rates. Someone truely intent on ending their life will find a way to do so. As to their right to do so, I personally have no problem with it.
Miryla 2 months ago
back when the framers were writing, guns were not automatic...we probably can't ask their opinion on the matter.
NOWAYNOTME91 3 months ago
@NOWAYNOTME91 the world was different.
Darusdei 3 months ago
that guy is wrong; listen to Penn and Teller explaining the 2nd Amendment
redskins1111 4 months ago
Maybe Americans are just more homicidally inclined - perhaps from having a political system set up to favor only 2 points of view - instead of many.
PeterFormaini 6 months ago
If this was real life they'd be trying to interrupt and scoff at each other the whole time.
gd01skorpius 6 months ago
Toby mentions Australia. Until the Port Arthur massacre, our gun laws were neither uniform nor particularly restrictive, and our gun crime rate was low. When the tough new laws came in, in 1996, gun crimes declined by 10% over two years, and total deaths by 47%, the main fall being due to fewer gun suicides.
That's good enough for me.
puffin51 6 months ago 17
@puffin51 What? It's good enough for you now that instead of blowing their brains out they're slitting their wrists? Please try to use some reason here.
Banning firearms because people misuse them is like pissing in the wind, all that happens is people find other means. The only way to improve society is through social, not regulatory, means.
ihaterobbie123 6 months ago
@ihaterobbie123 Yes, it's good enough for me that gun crimes are down by 10% from a historical low, and gun deaths by 47%.
puffin51 6 months ago
@puffin51 You sound like a broken record.
If it's good enough for you that instead of someone shooting themselves in the head, they choose to kill themselves through other means then I don't want to live in your ideal country.
Now I asked you to use some reason, but it seems you're incapable. Your a mindless drone who doesn't know how to think rationally and answer a simple fucking question.
Riddle me this, how is a dead woman in an alley morally superior to a live woman who shoots a rapist?
ihaterobbie123 6 months ago
@ihaterobbie123 You're well named. Choose the handle yourself, did you?
There was also a decline in the overall suicide rate of about 15% over the ten years following the gun bans, most steeply in the years immediately after. This, of course, cannot be credited to the bans, but other research suggests that suicide attempts are less likely to succeed when there's no gun available.
Your rape fantasy is just that. Most gun deaths from crime are of the victims, not the attacker.
puffin51 6 months ago
@puffin51 "Most gun deaths from crime are of the victims, not the attacker."
Go figure. It's almost as if the victim isn't always armed when they're attacked. Your point is moot. In reality there have been countless occassions where a gun has stopped massacres and assaults. If you're not yet aware of that, please kindly crawl out from under your rock and use google.
In the US it's estimated guns are 4 times more likely to be used to prevent a crime, rather than commit one.
thearmedcitizen(.)com
ihaterobbie123 6 months ago
@ihaterobbie12 That "estimate" is straight out of the ass. The April 1994 Justice Department study Guns and Crime revealed that about one percent (62,200) of all victims of violence claimed to have used a firearm to defend themselves. Another 20,300 reported using a firearm to defend their property. In comparison, offenders armed with handguns alone committed 931,000 violent crimes in 1992. That is, guns are about 19 times more likely to be the instruments of crime than preventers of it.
puffin51 6 months ago
@puffin51 And I wonder, out of that 931,000, how many were committed with a gun obtained illegally. In 2005 the number was 477,040 with ANY firearm, not just handguns. What's so different about gun policy in the US today which has seen the figure cut by less than half?
Well, firearm bans on many major cities have been lifted. Concealed carry has been indroduced. The "make my day" laws have been put into effect in their various incarnations.
Why is it that crime hotspots have strict gun laws?
ihaterobbie123 6 months ago
@ihaterobbie123 Interesting. You're right that crimes with guns have reduced overall since the 90's in the US. The gun homicide rate has slightly increased since 2002, though. The sources I read put the decrease down to strong efforts to reduce the number of illegal firearms. But, sure, go with your intuition that it's all because of concealed carry. Hope you never have to find out in person if it works. Farewell.
puffin51 6 months ago
@puffin51 There have always been strong efforts to reduce the number of illegal firearms. My country, the UK, banned handguns all together and yet they show up in their tens of thousands in police inventories every year. Banning something doesn't make it go away, government is not a genie that can grant wishes. To stop guns coming into any country is impossible.
I've been mugged before, I'd rather I didn't have to take a knife in my arm again to protect my family.
ihaterobbie123 6 months ago
@ihaterobbie123
A drunk gets mad and punches a guy in the nose.
A drunk gets mad and shoots up a bar.
That's the difference.
pvthitch 5 months ago
@pvthitch
A mugger wants cash and stabs me in the arm with a machete (what actually happened).
A mugger wants cash and either surrenders when I draw my weapon, or bleeds his worthless ass out.
There's evidence that this happens every day in America. Your fantasy of regular drunken shootouts is just that, a fantasy. Want to know why? Drinking in public while carrying a firearm is illegal in the US.
"I am the inferior of any man whose rights I trample underfoot"
- Horace Greeley
ihaterobbie123 5 months ago
@ihaterobbie123
Yes but if a robber wants cash, hears you coming downstairs in your house and is afraid you may have a gun he draws his gun and shoots. If you arm the average citizen the risks of crime increase and therefore criminals decide to protect themselves from that risk by arming themselves. It's simply true that America doesn't have a dramatically different crime rate (and in some areas has a higher crime rate than Europe) so guns don't work as a detterent in that context.
Fragileone1 4 months ago
@Fragileone1 If you think a burglar will rob someone who he most likely thinks is armed, you're insane.
No way in hell will he risk his life for a television. Most career criminals are still alive through prudence, if they even smell a gun they're out of there.
What actually happens when the risks of crime increase is crime decreases. There are videos where criminals in prison are asked if a house with a gun is a good target and they said no.
ihaterobbie123 4 months ago
@ihaterobbie123
It's not robbing someone who they think is armed, it is the concern that they do not know and are are more likely to fire first and ask questions later. Were it true that when risk increased crime decreased then states that permitted the gun ownership would have a lower crime rate because of the presumed risk of harm from criminality. The simple fact is that that isn't the case. If it doesn't achieve that aim and more people are killed per year then why allow guns?
Fragileone1 4 months ago
@Fragileone1 "Were it true that when risk increased crime decreased then states that permitted the gun ownership would have a lower crime rate because of the presumed risk of harm from criminality. The simple fact is that that isn't the case."
Within the US, it is the case. NY and Chicago: strict laws, high crime.
"If it doesn't achieve that aim and more people are killed per year then why allow guns?"
Because freedom is more important than safety.
ihaterobbie123 4 months ago
@ihaterobbie123 Videos with criminals making statements are anecdotal evidence at best. Statistical evidence, on the other hand, suggest the opposite.
The cases of NY and Chicago include huge amounts of confounding factors, like population density and urban environment, not to mention that the ease of which guns can be obtained illegally when gun laws vary to the extend they do.
And the freedom to own a device created solely to kill other human beings is not a freedom one should treasure.
Sammathnar 4 months ago
@Sammathnar When the handgun ban on DC was lifted, gun murders dropped in a manner unrivaled by anywhere else in the country. The population density, GDP, everything was fairly constant but the second handguns were allowed again murders, hot burglaries, armed robbery all dropped to levels only seen during the 60s.
The freedom to own a device used solely to protect ones own life is not a freedom others should deface with their lies. I'm not only in disagreement with you sir, you disgust me.
ihaterobbie123 4 months ago
@ihaterobbie123 clearly you missed the entire point of this video and misread the second amendment. you have the freedom to own a gun when forming a well-regulated militia. get it?
MsDDiddy 3 months ago
@MsDDiddy You know "well regulated" in 18th century English means maintained right? It doesn't mean what "regulated" means today.
And no, you're wrong anyway, read the words: A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.
"the right of the People" NOT the right of the militia.
I don't mind correcting people, but if you don't know something don't act so condescending. Get it?
ihaterobbie123 3 months ago
@ihaterobbie123
dumb mother fucker
shut your stupid cock sucking mouth
the people ARE the militia you dumb ignorant piece of shit
IronChefWannabe 3 months ago
Comment removed
dersquirrel 3 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@IronChefWannabe people like you are the only evidence we need to have stronger gun control laws.
dersquirrel 3 months ago
@ihaterobbie123
shut up you stupid fuck
stop telling lies
violent crime was dropping way before gun control laws were reversed you stupid, ignorant, cock sucking piece of shit
en.wikipedia
dot
org/wiki/Crime_in_Washington,_D.C.
IronChefWannabe 3 months ago
@IronChefWannabe "gun murders dropped in a manner unrivaled by anywhere else in the country"
Key word "unrivaled".
I know crime was decreasing, if you had any fucking reading comprehension you would be able to interperate what I said correctly, alas simple English is beyond you.
Please explain to me why stating true facts qualifies me to be a "stupid, ignorant, cock sucking piece of shit". Please also explain how gun owners are doing harm when you're unable to discuss the issue with civility.
ihaterobbie123 3 months ago
Everybody wants to change the gunlaws. But not the culture of thugs,criminals an terrorists that are being raised in this county.
freeRguns 6 months ago
The Death Rate IN HOMICIDES per 100 000 population (in 2005) according to the UN Office on Drugs and Crime:
GB - 0.07; France - 0.44; Germany - 0.22; Japan - 0.02; Switzerland - 0.58; Denmark - 0.23; Australia - 0.44
US - 7.35
However you phrase it, Toby's point was correct. The US has a greater deaths (homicides) rate than all of these countries and, yes, they have tougher gun control laws.
PT109Boat 7 months ago 33
@PT109Boat No, Toby is not right. Because those numbers he used also factored in suicides by firearm. If someone is going to kill themselves, a gun may just be the most convenient. Are you going to ban ropes sharp things next? So we can't hang or cut ourselves?
WakingMajority 1 week ago
@WakingMajority You didn't see the word HOMICIDES?? It was in capital letters. I did that precisely to avoid your misinterpretation. I even gave the source that includes the numbers of all suicides to give a total of gun related deaths.
And in my comment, I was not supporting Toby's numbers (as I don't have his source), but his point. His point is backed by facts and data from many, many, many sources.
However you phrase it, Toby's point is still correct.
PT109Boat 1 week ago
@PT109Boat If you do any research at all. You'd clearly see that he did factor in suicides and counted them as homicides. And a homicide just means that a person was killed by another person. How many of these "victims" were burglars? Rapists?
How many of them were killed committing a crime? Toby doesn't factor any of that into his rigged liberal statistics. How about we ban rocks and sticks next? Get real.
I bet you stabbings are higher in all those countries you named. Lets ban knives next.
WakingMajority 1 week ago
@WakingMajority Once again, Toby's POINT was that the countries listed, who have very strict gun control laws, have a fraction of the gun deaths COMBINED that the US. HOWEVER YOU PHRASE IT (homicides, shootings in self defence and even suicides), all counts of gun deaths in those countries are fractions of those in the US.
The numbers I gave are homicides (as per the report "a violent CRIME") confirm that. If you think the UN is "liberal" try the data by the CIA, or the police.
PT109Boat 1 week ago
@PT109Boat You need the police or CIA to tell you that guns can kill people? Please.
Toby conveniently left Switzerland out of his equation. Even though Switzerland is the most armed country in the area and has exceptionally low gun crime rates and crime in general. Guns don't pull their own triggers. Blaming the tool instead of the psycho wielding it is something i'll never understand from you pro-gun control people. So if I killed 100 people with a bow and arrow, you going to want them banned?
WakingMajority 1 week ago
@WakingMajority I was not aware that you are a Ron Paul supported. I don't agree with 50% of what Ron Paul says, but I completely agree on his stances on war, the war on drugs and, most importantly (and you can correct me on this) he wants Corporate money out of the electoral process (I think I heard him say that once. Am I correct?) .
Although I don't agree with several of his social policies, I would DEFINETIVELY support a candidate who wants to keep Corporate money out of elections.
PT109Boat 1 week ago
@PT109Boat I have heard Ron Paul say on several occasions that he wants to get money out of politics in general. So I am sure this covers corporate money. He has also never collected on his congressional pension. He is one of the only principled people in politics.
My last point for no gun control is also for the simple fact that one day we my have to overthrow our government and pick a better one from random names from a phonebook. This will be hard to do if only cops and feds have guns.
WakingMajority 1 week ago
He quoted the 2A incorrectly and also I can point to countries with even stricter gun control laws then the countries he named that have a smaller population but even HIGHER gun deaths per capita and as a whole.
safewaysecurity 9 months ago
How many non-gun deaths did those countries have?
A man stabbed, strangled, burned or clubbed to death is no less dead.
Also, these figures always include suicides. Is a man who overdoses on painkillers, jumps off a bridge, cuts his wrists or hangs himself any less dead?
What use is the term 'gun deaths' without decoupling it from suicides and comparing it to violent crime as a whole?
I loved The West Wing, but there is no doubt the show had a slant as well as a team of writers to sell it.
Houtaku 9 months ago
@Houtaku What is the success rate of attempted suicides using a gun compared to attempted suicides using painkillers, jumping off a bridge, cutting the wrists, and hanging? Let me answer that for you, a whole lot less for the latter group.
nyraider91 8 months ago
As a matter of fact. in Hinckley's case; Secret Service agent Tim McCarthy is still alive and serving as the Police Chief in Orland Park Illinois. DC Police Officer Thomas Delahanty is still alive though no longer works as a police officer, and James Brady has (30 years later) maganed to learn how to walk again and recovered almost all speech ability and cognitive function.
nudist0885 1 year ago
Another personal interjection here; He was successful in ending the lives of 6 people (one of which by HER AGE ALONE was not permitted to carry a gun anywhere at anytime) but he failed to extinguish the life of his target victim.
Just like Arthur Bremer, who attempted to assassinate Governor George Wallace, and John Hinckley Jr., who attempted to assassinate President Ronald Reagan. As a matter of fact Bremer didn't kill ANYONE that day and neither did Hinckley.
nudist0885 1 year ago
Those laws made it legal for the gunman to buy military-style ammunition magazines holding 30 rounds; to buy the gun capable of firing those bullets; and to carry that loaded gun without a permit. Not until the gunman fired at Gabrielle Giffords did he break any law.
Personal addition here; Though 16 seconds after the first shot was fired, all the damage that needed to be done, was completed. 16 SECONDS. 30 SHOTS. 6 DEAD.
nudist0885 1 year ago
...about his mental health that required court-ordered outpatient treatment at a mental health facility.
From a story that appeared in the Washington Post newspaper on January 14th 2011, Paul Helmke; President of the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence states (regarding the attack in Tuscon); This shooting also highlighted, again, our weak gun laws.
nudist0885 1 year ago
I did some research on the subject over the last few days and found out a few interesting things.
1) Seung-Hui Cho passed both background checks AND complete handgun purchases after presenting all required ID. He also waited the minimum required 30 day period between each gun purchase. (verbatim from wikipedia entry); He was successful at completing both handgun purchases, even though he had failed to disclose information on the background questionnaire...
nudist0885 1 year ago
Not that it matters to anyone who hasn't seen this video or remember that the argument was uttered at all.......
Do you think that it's because Americans are more homicidal by nature?
Well, YES I DO.
nudist0885 1 year ago
It's a TV show...
ElwoodDowdJr 1 year ago 3
@ElwoodDowdJr It's a TV show that covers very real and important topics.
GrandMasterFreshMpls 5 months ago
@ElwoodDowdJr It's a TV show that brings up extremely current and important issues. You're fooling yourself if you think these issues they cover don't connect with everyday Americans.
GrandMasterFreshMpls 4 months ago
Also, the majority of gun related deaths was attributed to being "homicidal" when in fact the majority of gun related deaths are suicides.
huffingtonpost(dot)com/2008/06/30/suicides-half-of-gun-deat_n_110043(dot)html
JoinedJustToSayThis 1 year ago
Also, neither correctly stated the text of the second amendment:
"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
JoinedJustToSayThis 1 year ago
False. According the Australian government, in 2001 there were 333 firearm related deaths in Australia alone, which is the year this episode (Barlet's Third State of the Union) aired. If this was written in the previous year, 2000, then Australia's gun deaths would be 331.
Sources: (Remove spaces)
nisu . flinders . edu . au / briefs / firearm_deaths_2005 . pdf
westwing . bewarne . com / second / 35guncontrol . html
en . wikipedia . org / wiki/ Bartlet's_Third_State_of_the_Union
JoinedJustToSayThis 1 year ago