John Williams - His film music and their mind-blowing similarities with "classical" music

[Wakipenda]

how bout the main Star Wars or Superman theme?? wud like to know what inspired that...no double intention in my question...just wud like to know so i could listen to it....

[AlexLieb2802]

@Wakipenda For the Star Wars Main theme you have to listen to Kings Row from Korngold... ;) For Superman I don't know yet. Have fun!

[Wakipenda]

many thnks!

[TheFred1813]

@Wakipenda For the Superman theme, i think it is copied from a piece composed by the Italian composer Rossini. It is called in Italian "La Danza" and the specific part which is similar to Superman theme is called "Tarantela". This little part lasts for 3m 20sc and it as at 1m30sc that you can spot the similarity. "Film composers" from today search their inspirations from the "classical composers". Some movie soundtracks are brillant, there is no genius compared to classical composers.

[phantomfn8]

The Mahler reference and the Hanson reference are a bit of a stretch. Especially the Mahler. Just because the first three notes are the same? That's is utterly ridiculous. I hate how people bash on John Williams. First off, try to do what he does! You wouldn't last a day in the life of a film composer. Second, all composers copy and plagiarize. Even the classics, Bach, Mozart, Beethoven...they all copied from other composers. John Williams is famous out of pure talent...nothing else.

[AlexLieb2802]

@phantomfn8 You're saying that "all composers copy and plagiarize" - I never mentiened that. I also never bashed him. Just showing some similarities. Of course he is talented.

Not only the notes are important. Sometimes its the orchestration, the mood coming with it, the dynamic, etc...

[phantomfn8]

@AlexLieb2802 I realize that. But others who are commenting on this video are bashing him. He is a great composer and much of his less famous music is all original and very very beautiful. However, yes some of his film music is very similar to classical music. I think it is fun to find connections between music.

[Edbrad]

One track I dont agree with and its the Nutrcracker one, because its clear its MEANT to be a rip off.

[brazilamaral]

stravinsky is so superior, he would have been a genius movie composer.

[JairCrawford]

Also, I have to say the Grievous theme and the Minority Report vs. Mahler are both a bit of a stretch. lol The Star Wars vs. Holst and Stravinsky makes sense because they were in the temp track. I can see the ET similarity, and I get the Home Alone vs Tchaikovsky, although that's not really a carbon copy. The melodies are different. The key and rhythm are the same though.

[matrixyoda]

true

[cnmaster01]

The first one, there's also a disturbingly similar section on the RIte, but I guess Neptune came first. You could probably do a whole blow by blow Stravinsky Vs. Star Wars.

[AlexLieb2802]

@cnmaster01 I totally agree!

[Leungy12252]

Stravinsky have once said: "Good Composer borrow, great Composer Steal"

With a bit of ironic humour this is originally said by T.S Elliot "Good poets borrow, great poets Steal"

[dandimo12]

thanks for doing this video. i hate it when people copy music and no one knows. mostly in the case of john williams because people say "i love john wiliams, i love the star wars soundtrack", but they dont know that the star wars soundtrack has already been written by holst.the only reason people know williams is because he "wrote" music for big fils. there are a heck of a lot of good composers out there who deserve more fame than john wiliams.

[AlexLieb2802]

@dandimo12 Thanks to you for saying this on a comment!

[Azshmo]

@dandimo12 That's almost as bad as people who pretend that they care about "copying" music yet they only care when someone points it out to them are completely unaware that it happens all throughout history constantly.

[GGbreizh]

@dandimo12 Well I must say that you don't know much about Williams.

First he was inspired by Holst like MANY others composers. There is for instance a lot of similarities between Bach and Beethoven, between Mozart and Beethoven Haydn and Beethoven. If you knew about Williams music you would know that he took his inspiration from many composers and with that he created new works wich are his own works.

[GGbreizh]

@dandimo12 "the star wars soundtrack has already been written by holst" Can you proof me this ??? What I hate is people who makes such allegations without even giving proofs.

Williams i one of hte greatest composer of the XXth century, he hasomposed for the greatest orchestras of America, and the most famous musical personalities have played his works and holds him in high esteem (Yo Yo Ma, Shaham, Perlman, Stern, Pavarotti, Metha, Previn and many others).

[SummerSnowboarding]

@GGbreizh Agreed, but when was the last time you saw someone cite the information stated in a youtube comment?

[GGbreizh]

@SummerSnowboarding (I wanted to say Mehta and not Metha) I am sorry but I didn't understand your question (I do not speak english fluently). Did you want to ask me when wa sthe last time I saw someone saying that Williams plagiarized Holst ??

[JairCrawford]

@dandimo12 I know very well of the striking similarities, and John Williams still remains one of my favorite composers. What he did, as BardCoennius mentioned, is he wrote a sound-alike to Korngold, Holst, and Stravinsky while writing Star Wars as George Lucas specifically instructed him to do so, and, his job as a film composer is to follow the director's instructions. I've listened to Williams' more original film works and concert works. He can write brilliant original music.

[MountDoomPictures]

@dandimo12

You have no clue why people like John Williams. It's not because "he wrote Star Wars", it's because he's set a standard of excellence in film scoring for most of his career. And there's a HUGE difference between plagiarism and similar style. It's quite lazy to say just because the basic orchestral patterns are slightly similar that he's "copying Holst". e.

[stamstuff]

Excellent video!!! LMAO when on 4:40 John Williams face with that smile :) what about more exaples? like Gustav Holst "The Planets" rip off at the end of MARS to the begining of star wars IV at the end of the leters at the begining. please much more if you can.

[AlexLieb2802]

@stamstuff Humor should always be part of a Video :D

[stamstuff]

@AlexLieb2802 Yep. and as you suggested, if anyone interested in more details or examples, I will be happy to know of many more. :)

[AlexLieb2802]

@stamstuff They'll come, but later...

[stamstuff]

@AlexLieb2802 Before 2012 i hope. :)

[AlexLieb2802]

@stamstuff lol I dont know :D

[stamstuff]

@AlexLieb2802 Ha, ha, and by the way, did heard this concerto for piccolo "freakollo" by Yossi Hamami? It's really cool music.

[PatPlein]

This is not a surprise. Lucas wrote the scripts to classical music and Williams knew what music went with which parts of the script, so it's not unlikely that the music Williams created would sound similar to what Lucas had in mind for the film.

[PaganFiddler91]

haha, ur back man. Greetings from London !

[Sheriefabraham]

You know, Tchaikovsky, Stravinsky and Mahler also "borrowed" from older masters like Mozart Beethoven and Schumann and Wagner and liszt and all five of them borrowed from each other and older masters like Hayden Bach and Handel. Musical progress does require old knowledge to be understood and built on.

[AlexLieb2802]

@Sheriefabraham I know, but the context is different - They are, for the most of them, a result of hard studies of the masters and ends in a new form as quotations (for the classical composers). But what I see here is more an "obliged" copying (dangerous word) of older composers. Certain is, that John Williams did not always have the choice of what he has to compose cause of the temptracks. He has his own style I have to admit, but what I see here is more a violation and a money making thing.

[RogueRotting360]

I'm not sure I agree with all of these. With alleged Neptune quote, I don't see it. Sure there's a harmonic connection in the augmented chords, the ROTJ example has a strong triplet rhythm and the melodic wind figure, which are much more in the foreground than anything in the Holst work.

One you didn't find is a parallel between the first movement of Bartók's Concerto for Orchestra and a passage from Mynock Cave from ESTB.

[TheTrollMage]

And I remember seeing some interview or reading maybe that the director had that Nutcracker piece as temp music over the scene and specifically requested the music be like it, aswell as others that commented about temp music and directors becoming attached to it, I've experienced that also.

[AlexLieb2802]

@TheTrollMage Yes of course this is also an important point that we dont need to forget.

[TheTrollMage]

I did find this interesting, Particularly having never actually heard any of those classical pieces of music before. But trying to discredit John Williams from a dozen examples just won't work since none of your examples include any of his thematic material. Even if you did find music that you could compare to having such close similarities it'd still mean little, so I'm still trying to decide why you have so much time to do this and why you even care so much to do so in the first place.

[BardCoennius]

John Morris was another film composer who was quite good at this (compare the theme from "Young Frankenstein" to Dvorak's "Slavonic Dances."

[BardCoennius]

Those similarities are not by accident - at least in the case of the score for "Star Wars," George Lucas referred Williams to "The Planets" by Gustav Holst and instructed him to compose similar material for his film.

They're called "sound-alikes" - I and other composers often wind up doing them for film makers who want to use something that they cannot afford the rights to.

[AlexLieb2802]

@BardCoennius Yes of course. But still, I can't find such kind of similarities listening to Bernard Herrmann or Korngold. ( Of course it was another Time, but still - When we think of Bernard Herrmann making absolutely everything (Composing / Orchestrating / Placings... - You maybe think that it could be different... )) Thanks for your comment by the way :-)

[BardCoennius]

@AlexLieb2802 You may also know that during the early part of the 20th century, songwriters from "Tin Pan Alley" regularly lifted material from classic composers: "I'm Always Chasing Rainbows" and "'Til The End of Time" were lifted note for note from Chopin etudes.

[BardCoennius]

@AlexLieb2802 The two most infamous examples were "Avalon," which was taken from a Puccini aria (whoops! Puccini was still alive and held the copyright...the result was a lawsuit that put the publisher out of business) and "Full Moon and Empty Arms" which was ripped off from a Rachmaninoff piano concerto...

I think this is why "classical" composers (in the sense of non-pop, state-supported music) started composing very complex, esoteric and atonal music ...

[AlexLieb2802]

@BardCoennius This is actualy a nice point of view. But when you say this, you say in another term that everything was already done in music. But Schoenberg is the one who said: "All the beautiful melodies in C major are still not written..."

And whats that quotation again: "Talent borrows, genius steals"

[BardCoennius]

@AlexLieb2802 And genius gets its ass hauled into court and sued by the copyright holders :D

[AlexLieb2802]

@BardCoennius If everything goes right, yes... :-)

[LOTRzagorath]

@BardCoennius In the case of Holst, they could perfectly use it as written if they had wanted to. It's public domain. (I don't know whether or not it was when the original Star Wars was released though, so perhaps it wasn't back then).

The same with much of the other music in here.

The Stravinsky music is most questionable. As it is today, it's public domain in the US, but not much of the rest of the world. It may not have even been in the US back then.